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Don Lemon Explains What Happened in Elon Musk Interview

Don Lemon chats with Kara Swisher and Scott Galloway about the Elon Musk interview that ended his partnership with X. He opens up about his interactions with Elon Musk, Linda Yaccarino, and more, plus his future plans. #pivot #podcast #donlemon #elonmusk

Kara SwisherhostDon LemonguestScott Gallowayhost
Mar 18, 202431mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 0:32

    Don Lemon returns to Pivot: the Musk deal abruptly ends

    1. KS

      Let's jump right in. Don Lemon and Elon Musk have consciously uncoupled.

    2. DL

      Can I introduce myself like I'm a co-host? And I'm Don Lemon. Welcome to Pivot. (laughs)

    3. SG

      There you go, nice. De l'amour. We decided to sex up this podcast.

    4. KS

      Yes, after recording a 90-minute interview last week for Lemon's upcoming show, Musk texted Lemon's rep, "Contract terminated, uh, canceled, contract canceled."

    5. DL

      Hi, Kyra. Hi, Prof G.

    6. NA

      Hey, Ron.

  2. 0:32 – 1:24

    A surprising CNN homecoming before the X fallout

    1. KS

      Hello, Don. What's going on? Listen, we need to stop. We wanna find out what happened. And I know you talked a little bit on CNN last night about it. And welcome back to CNN, by the way.

    2. DL

      That was such a weird experience.

    3. KS

      Why? Why so? 'Cause you were in the building?

    4. DL

      Well, I mean, it was, uh, it was, I went back to the place where, you know, I no longer work-

    5. KS

      Mm-hmm.

    6. DL

      ... almost a year, not quite as- you know, it was April. I was in the same studio. Erin and I always shared a studio. They just, you know, switched the desk around, right, that studio with the stairs. And so they would just switch backgrounds and switch the, the desk around. And all of my entire camera crew and producers were there. It was just, uh, it was just very exciting.

    7. KS

      Was it a happy homecoming? They like you, I know that.

    8. DL

      I mean, ev- everyone, everyone showed up. The people came out of the control room. They came in from... It was, they were very happy to see me.

    9. KS

      Oh, very nice.

    10. DL

      And, and then I was ha- I was happy to see them, but I had to, um, I had to leave, like, I just, because it was too emotional.

    11. KS

      Yes.

    12. DL

      I was gonna start crying.

    13. KS

      Oh.

    14. DL

      Yeah.

  3. 1:24 – 2:50

    Conspiracy theories and Kara’s early warning: “Don’t do it”

    1. KS

      You could cry. That would be okay. But listen, listen, we need to know what happened. But first, I want-

    2. DL

      Okay.

    3. KS

      There's already conspiracy theories, so I'm gonna read this comment on, uh, from a Threads user, sbkurt. "Y'all are so gullible. This is manufactured. Remember when Hostess CupCakes was going bankrupt and out of business and there was a run on Ho Hos? Well, these two ho hos are playing, y'all."

    4. DL

      (laughs)

    5. KS

      Just so you know, people think now it's a plot between you and Elon to boost, uh, watching of this, just so you know.

    6. DL

      That's not it.

    7. KS

      Yeah.

    8. DL

      Kyra, you know that's not it.

    9. KS

      I know it.

    10. DL

      Come on.

    11. KS

      I'm just laughing. I mean, like, are they-

    12. DL

      You know it, because we talked about this-

    13. KS

      Yes.

    14. DL

      ... you know, soon after I left CNN. I said, "What am I gonna do? I'm gonna take the summer off. Give me some ideas to ponder."

    15. KS

      Yes. Yes.

    16. DL

      You gave me some ideas.

    17. KS

      Yeah.

    18. DL

      Um, and then I came back to you with an idea of, of, and told you that X was reaching out to me. I, I think it was Twitter then, right?

    19. KS

      Yeah. Hmm, I don't know.

    20. DL

      And you said, "No."

    21. KS

      No.

    22. DL

      "Don't do it."

    23. KS

      Don't. (laughs) I was like, "This is the plot of Get Out. Do not do it."

    24. DL

      Yeah.

    25. KS

      Do not do it.

    26. DL

      (laughs)

    27. KS

      Um, but we also chatted about this partnership with X at my event for the book, which you kindly moderated-

    28. DL

      Right.

    29. KS

      ... just a few weeks ago at the 92nd Street Y. I did voice my concerns then, and I said, "Get the money up front at some point." So go through what happened. Um, both Scott and I, you know, everybody was not surprised, I would say, right, that, that, that this occurred. Um, but, but I think people, it still got a lot of attention. So talk us, uh, through what happened and what the deal was.

  4. 2:50 – 4:50

    How X recruited Lemon: public invites, persistence, and Linda Yaccarino’s role

    1. DL

      You mean how this deal came about?

    2. KS

      Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    3. DL

      Okay, so as you know, um, Elon Musk very publicly tweeted saying, inviting me to the platform.

    4. KS

      Yeah.

    5. DL

      And then, uh, Tucker eventually started a show, and he said, "This is what everyone should be doing. Don Lemon should be doing this."

    6. KS

      Yeah.

    7. DL

      Um, I was... And then I got a phone call from someone I told you. I don't know if you wanna mention the name-

    8. KS

      Sure.

    9. DL

      ... but you said that they were acting on behalf... Obviously, they're acting on behalf of Elon-

    10. KS

      Mm-hmm.

    11. DL

      ... someone who is in a very high profile position, who, uh, you know, bold name, said, "You should do this. This is great for you, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah." And so that was very early on, and I said no. And then Linda Yaccarino was signed on as CEO-

    12. KS

      Mm-hmm.

    13. DL

      ... and she knows a lot of people that you and I know-

    14. KS

      Mm-hmm.

    15. DL

      ... very respected people.

    16. KS

      She was at NBC, yep. Mm-hmm.

    17. DL

      She was at NBC, and, uh, they said, "Wait till Linda, you know, gets on board," and we did. And then they reached out again. They kept reaching out, and they kept pursuing me, and I said, "Yeah." And they, you know, they kept sweetening the deal.

    18. KS

      Mm-hmm.

    19. DL

      And I said, "Of course." And so we started working out... I said, "I will only do this if I can be myself on your platform. The only reason I'm coming to your platform is because I think, um, Twitter..." I think it was Twitter at the time, or maybe it was changing to X, whatever. It's interchangeable. "I think it's, uh, the biggest platform for, um, for news beyo- besides being on a network and for people who are speaking out and who are commenting on news." When people wanna know about news, if there's a breaking story, the first thing they do is they pick up their phone and they go to Twitter or they go to X and they wanna see what's trending or what, what have you. And I said, "I wanna be myself, and I'm, I'm going to have to criticize the person who owns this platform." And they said, "That's completely fine. That's what we want. We want you to be you, and, uh, we're all about free speech." Elon's a free speech absolutist. He would text me. Uh, we, you know, would text each other, and we would talk about these things. He said, "I want you on the platform. This is what you should, should be doing," and everyone said, "You're gonna be free to, to be yourself." And that's how it came about.

  5. 4:50 – 6:44

    Deal terms clarified: Lemon’s show, not ‘an X show’

    1. KS

      Right, and so you signed a deal. Now, can you give specifics? They gave you a lot of money to be, not exclusive. I think people are confused by this. You can be anywhere, right? You can put your stuff-

    2. DL

      Yeah.

    3. KS

      ... your sh- new show on YouTube or Instagram-

    4. DL

      Yeah.

    5. KS

      ... or wherever you feel like, correct?

    6. DL

      Yeah. Yeah, I'm not gonna... Look, I'm not gonna go into specifics about the money, and that's not what you're asking me.

    7. KS

      Yeah.

    8. DL

      But was there a financial part of it? Absolutely. Was it, um, you know, enticing? Absolutely. Um-

    9. KS

      What did they get for it. Like, ex- do, do you have te- extra 10 minutes?

    10. DL

      But here's what, here's... Yeah. So here's the thing. Everyone thinks it was an X show.

    11. KS

      Mm-hmm.

    12. DL

      It was not an X show.

    13. KS

      Mm-hmm.

    14. DL

      It was my show produced by my, uh, production company, which is called LMN or Lemon Media Network, produced by my company. They had ed- no editorial control over it. At first, we wanted to do five days a week, and then I said, you know, everyone in this business said, "That's too much. Do three days a week." You even told me that. Like, "Don't, don't get crazy." And so we decided to do three days a week and, uh, three shows a week. What X wanted was some exclusive material. So I think I had to give them like 10 videos, uh, or something like that per week, and I think they had to be like 10 minutes long or what have you. That was extra things on top of the episodes. The, my episodes were already gonna...... air everywhere, right? They're gonna be on YouTube, they're gonna be on iHeart, they could, wherever you get, uh, streaming or podcasts.

    15. KS

      Mm-hmm.

    16. DL

      And so, they just wanted some extra material on top of that, and that material had to be exclusive to them for 24 hours.

    17. KS

      That's all.

    18. DL

      And then it went everywhere.

    19. KS

      Right.

    20. DL

      That's all they got.

    21. KS

      Yeah.

    22. DL

      And so I said, "If you're gonna pay me this money-

    23. KS

      Mm-hmm.

    24. DL

      ... and I'm gonna be posting on your platform if I didn't get this for free, it's a no-brainer." (laughs) You're giving me money to post on X. It was a no-brainer to me. I m- c- because people promote their material and their content on X anyways.

    25. KS

      Mm-hmm.

    26. DL

      Even people who don't like it, they're still on X.

    27. KS

      Right.

    28. DL

      And I asked a lot of people, "You don't like X, why are you still on it?" They said, "Because there's nothing else better."

    29. KS

      Mm-hmm.

    30. DL

      So that was the deal.

  6. 6:44 – 7:55

    Why X wanted Don: advertiser-friendly ‘non-extremist’ credibility and CES pressure

    1. KS

      So they, were they selling your advertising?

    2. DL

      Were they selling my adverti- ... Yes, they were selling advertising around me.

    3. KS

      Around you.

    4. DL

      Um, and I think-

    5. KS

      On X.

    6. DL

      ... I, I think-

    7. KS

      Yeah.

    8. DL

      On X, and I think what they wanted was someone who was not an extremist.

    9. KS

      (clicks tongue) Right.

    10. DL

      Someone who wasn't a, a right-wing conspiracy theorist that they could sell to the advertisers.

    11. KS

      To regular advertisers. And then, and the last question-

    12. DL

      Look, we have Don Lemon.

    13. KS

      Yeah, and last question on that-

    14. DL

      You know?

    15. KS

      ... and then, Scott, please jump in, is, um, a- and they took you to CES and showed you off. Linda likes to do that, had a dinner and showed you off to advertisers, correct?

    16. DL

      Yes, and, um, you know, there's, uh, uh, uh, yeah, yeah.

    17. KS

      Yes.

    18. DL

      I wanna say something, but I don't know if I should say it.

    19. KS

      All right, but nonetheless-

    20. SG

      Oh, you should.

    21. KS

      Yes, please do.

    22. DL

      I should?

    23. KS

      Yeah, go ahead.

    24. SG

      Yeah, you should.

    25. DL

      You think I should say it?

    26. KS

      Yeah.

    27. DL

      You want me to say it?

    28. KS

      Yeah, yeah.

    29. DL

      I- why not?

    30. KS

      Yeah.

  7. 7:55 – 9:51

    Minimal contact with Musk—and Don’s read on him

    1. SG

      Yeah. Don, good to see you. So I- I don't wanna speak specifically to working with Elon Musk, but what's it like to work with a malignant narcissist who is abusing a dissociative narcotic, just generally speaking, generally speaking?

    2. KS

      (laughs) God.

    3. DL

      Well, I've never worked with you, Scott, so I don't know.

    4. KS

      Oh. (laughs)

    5. SG

      Oh. Boom. Don bringing the fire.

    6. KS

      Don brings the fire.

    7. DL

      But, uh, listen, your question is moot, I think, uh, because I never really worked with him.

    8. KS

      Mm-hmm.

    9. DL

      I didn't, I didn't have that much contact with Elon Musk. The contact I had with him is he called me, I think he was in Paris, we had a long conversation for about 45 minutes in the summer. After I spoke to him, I spoke with Kara, and I said, "I don't wanna do this," what have you. He was very, he was very nice on, on the phone. I think he was, his mom was sitting there next to him and we were talking about it. He's very kind, very friendly. I have nothing against Elon Musk, you know. A- as a matter of fact, during the interview, I felt some empathy for him, because y- I was just like, this is someone who is a brilliant man in some aspects, but he's emotionally immature.

    10. KS

      Mm-hmm.

    11. DL

      And you n- you, I could pick that up in the interview, and, and a, and a bit insecure. But I have nothing against Elon Musk. I've never really worked with him. Uh, I have never met him in person, had never met him in person until I did that interview. We shared some texts, you know, uh, "I'm gonna call you," or, "When are you free?" And then, um, around DealBook, I texted him and I, yeah, I think I said something like, "Wow, I can't- you know, surprising you said that, but here's what I like that you said." And he said, "Free speech is for- is when people you don't like say things you don't like." And I said, "You know what? I agree with you on that. That's probably one of the only things that we agree on. I may not agree with you, but I'm gonna fight like hell for your right to be able to say it."

    12. KS

      Right, and that's the, uh, that's where he kind of went off the rails a little bit. I-

    13. SG

      Yeah.

    14. KS

      ... think, let's think-

    15. SG

      But let's, let's, let's-

    16. KS

      ... that's about it. Go ahead. Go ahead.

    17. SG

      Let's double-click on that.

    18. KS

      Okay.

    19. SG

      Because, uh, free speech is easy.

    20. KS

      I just wanna tell people who don't know, he kind of had a meltdown on stage with Andrew Ross Sorkin.

  8. 9:51 – 12:36

    What likely triggered Musk: pushback on drugs, DEI, and factual accountability

    1. SG

      Okay, so Mr., Mr. Free Speech, it's important, consistently says it's important that people say what they wanna say if people don't like it. What did you say that he didn't like that he then fired you unceremoniously for?

    2. DL

      Uh, you'll have to ask him, Scott.

    3. SG

      You were in the room, Don. What, what, what do you think upset him enough to, like, literally, uh, my understanding is within 24 hours send-

    4. KS

      You were- what's your sense, right?

    5. DL

      When presented with facts about things that he, um, tweets about, and I'll still call it, you know, tweeting, uh, about his posts, he didn't like that. Um, when I asked him about h- his y- you know, his alleged drug use that has been reported in the Wall Street Journal, very credible organizations, when I asked him about his ketamine use that he, he himself had tweeted about, he himself put out there, he bristled at that.

    6. SG

      Mm-hmm. I see.

    7. DL

      I said, "I would not- I wouldn't talk about these things, Elon. I wouldn't talk about your ketamine use if you had not publicly said that.

    8. KS

      Mm-hmm.

    9. DL

      How would I even know about it?" And he actually had a very good answer. He said, "The reason I talked about it is because I thought it would help people."

    10. KS

      Yeah.

    11. DL

      "And if you're on SSRIs, maybe you should sh- should consider taking ketamine." And I think he's absolutely right. I myself have suffered from depression. He talked about depression and, uh, you know, his use of ketamine. I, and I said, "I have suffered from depression, and I agree with you. You should try different things." I used to do talk therapy, and my, um, doctor actually tried drug therapy on me. I've done stories about people with PTSD who have-

    12. KS

      Mm-hmm.

    13. DL

      ... you know, done ketamine and other drugs, and it has actually helped them. So we agreed on that, but that went over his head. I don't think he even heard it, because I just don't think that he liked sitting there taking questions from me, someone that he has a history with, um, and just being held accountable and just being held to facts.

    14. KS

      Mm-hmm.

    15. DL

      When I talked about DEI and about, you know, the, uh, what he tweeted about ... Remember the Alaskan Airlines pilot who, when the door blew off and the plan, uh, a- and she landed the plane successfully, he, you know, somehow that it was a DEI thing. And I said, "But this is a woman who landed a plane successfully. That doesn't mean- that means that she is actually qualified to do a job, so I don't understand why you're tweeting the things that you're tweeting. There's no evidence of what you're putting out there." And he said, "Well, it would just be awful if we're lowering the standards, uh, in air safety, and it would be awful if we're lowering the standards for medical school because of DEI." And I said, "Yes, that would be awful, but there is no actual evidence that it is happening."

    16. KS

      So facts.

    17. DL

      "So why are you doing it? It is hypothetical." He, he said, "All I'm saying is that..."... it would be terrible and we shouldn't do it.

    18. KS

      He didn't like pushback any.

    19. DL

      He didn't, he didn't like pushback. But I, I'm, I am raising my voice now-

    20. KS

      Mm-hmm.

    21. DL

      ... um, louder than I did (book closes) in that interview, because-

    22. KS

      Right.

    23. DL

      ... I did not want that to happen. So, I was very calm and I asked him if you see this is-

    24. KS

      It seemed like the clips. They seemed-

    25. DL

      ... straightforward-

    26. KS

      ... reasonable questions.

    27. SG

      That's right.

    28. DL

      ... questions with follow-ups and that's it.

  9. 12:36 – 14:05

    Musk’s ‘CNN through Don’ jab and the Jeff Zucker association

    1. KS

      Right. So, he, he called your approach saying basically just CNN, but on social media and it's really Jeff, just Jeff Zucker talking through Don. Which, who you worked with Jeff Zucker at CNN. Uh, what did, how did you react to this?

    2. DL

      It's, uh, stupid. I mean, that was read to me secondhand and, um, uh, I think he tweeted about it. Um, or at least that was in the, his response to the press, um, after this happened. I mean, I think it's silly. I think it's a, I think he thinks by putting Jeff's name that it's somehow gonna get more, uh, attention and he's being a provocateur because people may look at Jeff as a person... Well, not may, may look at Jeff. They look, obviously know he ran CNN. And so that is sort of, you know, that adds to the, you know, he's a liberal sort of bro podcast world, um, where people who, you know, don't like the "mainstream media", but they watch Fox News all the time, which is part of the mainstream media. And let, let me just say this, as you know, and I'm not ashamed of this-

    3. KS

      (laughs)

    4. DL

      ... Jeff, the, Jeff's only connection to this is that Everyone To Studios is producing my show.

    5. KS

      It's wholly owned by Redbird, yeah.

    6. DL

      I was approached by Ian, who was, you know, formerly worked for Time Inc.-

    7. KS

      Mm-hmm.

    8. DL

      ... for Everyone To Studios. It's a coincidence, but I'm proud to work with Everyone To Studios and I'm proud to work with Jeff Zucker. And I think Jeff Zucker is one of the most talented media executives to ever live. And so to have him as a personal friend and as a mentor and someone who counsels me occasionally, I am not ashamed of that at all.

    9. KS

      Right, right.

    10. DL

      I'm actually very proud of that.

    11. KS

      You shouldn't be.

    12. DL

      I'm lucky to have that in my life.

  10. 14:05 – 16:59

    The moment it felt tense—and the ‘contract canceled’ text lands

    1. KS

      Let me ask, when you left the interview... You know, when I do interviews, I, you know, I sort of know, uh, how they feel essentially, you have said.

    2. DL

      Yes.

    3. KS

      Did you have any idea how-

    4. DL

      I did.

    5. KS

      ... he felt?

    6. DL

      I did, I did.

    7. KS

      And I kept texting you. I was like, "Oh, you're gonna get fired (laughs) tomorrow no matter what you did."

    8. DL

      (laughs) And I, I, I did. Um...

    9. KS

      Yeah.

    10. DL

      But I said to you, you know, we talked about it. I said this wasn't, we, uh, compared someone in the business. This wasn't a situation where I was gonna get guff for someone saying that I was bought and paid for because-

    11. KS

      Mm-hmm.

    12. DL

      ... it was actually, I said, I think I said it was, um...

    13. KS

      Yeah, you said it was tense.

    14. DL

      It wasn't comfy at times, I think is what I texted you.

    15. KS

      Right, yeah.

    16. DL

      And it wasn't, it was tense.

    17. KS

      Mm-hmm.

    18. DL

      Um, it... In the beginning, it was, you know, he was a bit cold and then he warmed up a little bit.

    19. KS

      So fast-forward, you did it and then you heard this thing and what was... Did you hear from Linda ever? Did she write you, who has been, like, slavishly trying to land your deal?

    20. DL

      We spent the next afternoon, uh, in Austin and I was trying to... Remember, I was trying to hook up with you just to say hi-

    21. KS

      Mm-hmm.

    22. DL

      ... or to do something.

    23. KS

      Mm-hmm.

    24. DL

      But I had to leave. And so, uh, I land at Newark Airport on Saturday evening, very rainy Saturday evening.

    25. KS

      Mm-hmm.

    26. DL

      And, uh, my agent calls and says, "Hey, I need you to step out. Where are you? Uh, I got to talk to you." And I said, "I can't." And he goes, "No, I need you to." I said, "I can't. I'm taxiing." And he goes, "Where are you taxiing? In Austin? Are you still there?" And I said, "No, I'm, I just landed in New York."

    27. KS

      Mm-hmm.

    28. DL

      And I said, I, you know... He said, "Well, I, um, I just got a text from, uh, Elon." And I said, "Okay, what did he say?" And he said, "Uh, he's very upset." He read me the text. It was kind of, um, I don't know if I would say vulgar. Um, but...

    29. KS

      Yes, I, I've gotten those texts.

    30. DL

      You would say vulgar?

  11. 16:59 – 19:38

    Turning a cancellation into launch promotion—and the looming payout fight

    1. SG

      I mean, my sense is, Don, uh, uh, and obviously this, you're probably still processing this. But if you were gonna try and launch a show, the biggest get would be to get Elon Musk to do your initial show. The even bigger get is to get him and then have him freak out and fire you. I mean, isn't this, isn't this out of central casting for how to launch a show? Isn't this a great thing? 'Cause my... I mean, a couple things. My understanding is the way you've depicted it, is you have a show and Twitter was just gonna be one of many distribution outlets. One, that, does that mean the show is gonna air? And two, I, I just can't imagine this playing out any better for Don Lemon. Your thoughts?

    2. DL

      Yeah, I, it's, you're right. So the moment I got the call, that's what I said. I was like, "Well, if he is going to cancel this contract..." Because at first I thought, "Well, he's just being petulant and, you know, he'll... Cooler heads will prevail and whatever." And I said, "But if he does, do it before the show airs."

    3. KS

      Mm-hmm.

    4. DL

      Because as you said, Scott, that would be the best thing to happen to me. Do it before the show airs and tweet about it-

    5. KS

      Mm-hmm.

    6. DL

      ... if you're gonna do it.

    7. KS

      Right.

    8. DL

      And so I could not have asked for a bigger promotion for the show than this. Um, but, you know, I think that in the long term...... um, having X on board. And if I could have done some work with them, I think it would have been helpful in the long term to grow-

    9. KS

      Promotional. Promotional, that they promoted him.

    10. DL

      ... of the business. Promotion. Because you know they use the algorithm.

    11. KS

      Yeah.

    12. DL

      And I told you I was using their analytics.

    13. KS

      Mm-hmm.

    14. DL

      Basically, I was going to use them as a newsroom.

    15. KS

      Right. Right.

    16. DL

      As an, as my newsroom-

    17. KS

      As a place to go, yeah.

    18. DL

      ... since I don't have the-

    19. KS

      No, they were gonna tout you to high heavens.

    20. SG

      Let me just ask a crass question then. Do you get paid out?

    21. DL

      Um, that is something that you'll have to ask my representatives. I, we're still in, in the middle of that. I have an agreement with them and I expect them to abide by that agreement. And if they don't, they're in breach.

    22. KS

      Can I can-

    23. SG

      Well, you were, you, you weren't terminated for cause, so why wouldn't you be paid out?

    24. KS

      Well, let me, 'cause-

    25. DL

      So-

    26. KS

      ... apparently he didn't sign this contract, is that correct? Even though he said contract canceled and therefore is acknowledging there's a contract. Correct?

    27. DL

      To, again, to my understanding, you, me- again, I would ra- I would prefer my, my representatives to discuss this, that there was an agreement, that we have an agreement. Um, and again, uh, eh, they said if I did not go to CES, that the deal was off.

    28. KS

      I see.

    29. DL

      They announced it to the world that I had a deal.

    30. KS

      Yes, they did do a press release.

  12. 19:38 – 22:16

    Linda Yaccarino’s response underscores who really runs X

    1. KS

      Yes, okay. All right. I, I've been in those contracts. So, um, so in any case, ha- have you spoken to Linda Yaccarino at all? Did you hear from her at all? Any-

    2. DL

      I heard from Linda the next morning. Um, uh, on Sunday morning, I got a call-

    3. SG

      (laughs) Did she know what had happened?

    4. KS

      (laughs)

    5. DL

      Sh- (laughs) That's a very good question.

    6. SG

      I mean, did the CEO know? (laughs)

    7. DL

      No.

    8. KS

      (laughs) Yeah.

    9. DL

      B- the, the CEO got a text from Elon.

    10. KS

      Mm-hmm.

    11. DL

      She'd never, she had not sp- by ... when I spoke to her, she had not spoken to him.

    12. KS

      Mm-hmm.

    13. DL

      She called me to say, you know, to s- try to smooth it over and to find out what happened, and, "I just wanna know what was going on because, you know, I haven't even spoken to him and I'm waiting to get in touch with him," and what have you. But, um, I think it took a while for her to get in touch with him.

    14. SG

      Whatever, he, he fired the wrong person, Don.

    15. KS

      (laughs) Anyways.

    16. SG

      Sorry, go ahead.

    17. DL

      Let me tell you. Look, if there's, if there was ever any question about who is running X-

    18. SG

      (laughs)

    19. KS

      Yeah.

    20. DL

      ... there isn't one now.

    21. KS

      Yeah.

    22. SG

      Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

    23. DL

      It's Elon Musk.

    24. SG

      Yeah.

    25. KS

      Yeah.

    26. DL

      That's who's running X.

    27. KS

      Did she apologize? Or ju- she never, she makes so many excuses for him, but-

    28. DL

      I don't remember if she apologized, but she was very apologetic, if that makes sense.

    29. KS

      Right, yes. Yeah.

    30. DL

      Right, right? She was, she was sort of very contrite and, um, saying, you know, "I wanna smooth this over. Um, you know, I think that you're great for the platform, we love having you on the platform, you've been a team player," blah, blah, blah. And, uh, "I think that, uh, I'm trying, I wanna get Elon to understand." And, and quite frankly, I said, "I think that he was just uncomfortable in the moment."

  13. 22:16 – 25:22

    Advice to talent and advertisers: X interest vs. brand risk, and betting on yourself

    1. KS

      (laughs) What's your advice for the next person who wants to do business with you then? Because, you know, he, he didn't pay out the, the Twitter executives. He didn't, he hasn't paid out regular employees. I've heard from dozens of them. Um, they're in severance hell with this guy. Um, doesn't pay rent. I mean, it goes, he's like Trump times six in this regard, pa- uh, paying bills. Um, what advice would you have for the next person who wants to do one of... 'cause this is one of Linda Yaccarino's big thing, is, "We're gonna make this immediate." Now, she, she was touting video y- yesterday-

    2. DL

      Yeah.

    3. KS

      ... when she knew full well what was going on here.

    4. DL

      Well, if you read the New York Times piece, advertisers were still trying to advertise around my show.

    5. KS

      Right.

    6. SG

      Hmm.

    7. DL

      They were using my show.

    8. KS

      Yeah.

    9. DL

      Uh, what would I, what would I do? And by the way, uh, I'll answer your question. Um, there were people who were asking me, i- uh, talent in this business, a number of people, "Oh, my God, your deal with X sounds very interesting. What do I do? How do I do this?" Um, you know, "This is the future. I think what you're doing is really smart." Right? And so, I told them to call my agent, call Oren Rosenbaum-

    10. KS

      Mm-hmm.

    11. DL

      ... right, who is, who's a digital guru at UTA and-

    12. KS

      He's a pod, he's a podcast. Yeah, he's also-

    13. DL

      Yeah, and have him, and have him work that out.

    14. KS

      Mine, by the way.

    15. DL

      And there were a number of people who reached out to me, and a number of people who reached out to my representatives because of that. And it, and if those people want to go to X, I, I'm sure they would. But I was in a position to actually bring normal journalists-

    16. KS

      Mm-hmm.

    17. DL

      ... to them. I shouldn't say normal. More centrist journalists to them and not-

    18. KS

      Mm-hmm.

    19. DL

      ... su- you know, right, mostly right-wing, um, people. Or, or I shouldn't say just journalists, talent.

    20. KS

      Mm-hmm.

    21. DL

      And also advertisers.

    22. KS

      Yeah.

    23. DL

      There were advertisers who said, "Oh, my God, I'm so excited about what you're doing."

    24. KS

      Mm-hmm.

    25. DL

      "I'm so excited about this new project. We wanna support you, but X? Eh." So in the end, with the advertisers, they weren't really helping.

    26. KS

      Right.

    27. DL

      And as you told me, you know, do this on your own.

    28. KS

      Yeah.

    29. DL

      Uh, invest and bet on yourself.

    30. KS

      Mm-hmm.

  14. 25:22 – 31:09

    Don Lemon’s next chapter: from cable star to lean digital entrepreneur

    1. SG

      Well, just an observation and then a question. I always like to try and glean a learning from our guests for younger people, and that is (sighs) a lot of times when you get laid off or fired, it has nothing to do with you, and to forgive yourself and just nothing's ever as good or as bad as it seems. And Don, you seem... I can just hear in your voice, you're fine. I get the sense you're sleeping just fine.

    2. DL

      I am.

    3. SG

      The, the, the question I have is, so you're a ca- uh, you're, you were and still are a kin of a cable news star. Cable news is in decline.

    4. DL

      Mm-hmm.

    5. SG

      The audience is shrinking. There's more talent than there is audience on cable news right now. And you've left and you're trying to shape kind of a, a new strategy, different distribution channels, maybe a new positioning for your show. Can you sort of walk us through, and it's probably a work in progress, can you walk us through your strategy for how you're gonna try and maintain relevance, maintain, you know, an income stream and sort of adapt to this new world? What's your, what's your thinking and your strategy here around the show in how you kind of move forward?

    6. DL

      Well, number one, I'm in a position where I can, uh, at least for a couple of years, I can, um, try things, right? I can experiment, and I intend to do that. Do I think that my relevance or my income or whatever it is, is, it, that it's going to be the same as when it was on CNN? No. I mean, I'm not working for CNN, and if I went to a different network, my relevance and my income would be different. And so I don't expect that. I think people start, you know, their... start media companies or they start streaming and they think they're gonna, you know, be the same as they were on, on broadcast media or cable media. No, I'm not that naive. I, I'm a 58-year-old man, and I know, uh, and I'm very realistic about, about life. Do I think I have, you know, a, a, another, um, chapter? Absolutely. Absolutely. Uh, and I... Look, I think I'm still relevant. I think I'm more relevant than people who are on cable news right now, um, be- just because I am open and willing to try new things, and I am not afraid of anything. I'm not afraid of Elon Musk. I wasn't afraid of anyone that I've ever worked with, any interview subject, the former president of the United States. I'm not. And so I believe with the... you have to have the right attitude about life. If you have a positive attitude about life, you try things, you, um, you don't let perfect be the enemy of the good, then you will go on and be successful. What I, out of this, what I said, you know, people wondered, like, "Why hasn't Don announced anything? Why hasn't he, um, you know, um, announced a job? Why hasn't he found a job?" None of that was true. People don't understand what, what contracts mean in this business. You have non-competes. You have, um, you know, there are time limits that you can do. You have to wait a certain amount of time before you can even look for a job. All of those things. Um, y- there are certain things about direct competitors where you can't go on, you know, people who are your direct competitors. And so I wanna continue to be able (laughs) to afford the lifestyle that I can, uh, that, uh, I have, and so those things aren't even in the realm of possibility to me. What I'm doing now, it just happens to be where the future of this industry is going. So, um, whatever I'm going to do, what I'm going to do next is lean into that, to the digital part of this, to the small screen part of this, and that Scott and you talk about that as well. So, um, what I'm gonna do is take whatever I can, invest in my business. I'm going to be lean and mean.

    7. KS

      Mm-hmm.

    8. DL

      And I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I s- I'm gonna spend the money up top to get it running, to look the best that it can, and once I figure out how to do this thing, then I'm going to stream, to, to slim it down even more so that I am running this entire business, not doing everything for myself, but that I have the right, a few of the right people around me and do it, um, the way that it should be done. Let me tell you what I've learned. When you're watching and you're getting your news on a small screen, and even sometimes on a big screen, nobody cares really about the giant studio around you that costs five, ten million dollars and the, all of the swoosh and whatever. They just want the information. And, um, they don't care if you have 50 producers or 10 writers. They want what they want from you, and that is quality and that is information, and they want someone who's gonna be authentic. And so that's where this is going. This isn't the way of the, the... I, I, I look at this, it's akin to the studio system from the 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s, and maybe even the 60s in Hollywood. Those days are gone, and so people have to become their own brands. You have to become your own studio and your own entrepreneur. The best advice that I got was from Kara Swisher.

    9. KS

      (laughs)

    10. DL

      And it clicked in my head in that moment. I was-

    11. SG

      I remember that.

    12. KS

      (laughs)

    13. DL

      I remember I, I was standing in my kitchen in Sag Harbor.

    14. KS

      Mm-hmm.

    15. DL

      You said, "You're no longer a, a talent. You're an entrepreneur."

    16. KS

      Uh-huh.

    17. DL

      And the minute you said that, I was like, "Fuck yeah, she's right. I'm an entrepreneur."

    18. KS

      Mm-hmm.

    19. DL

      I need to learn how to be a businessman.

    20. KS

      Mm-hmm.

    21. DL

      I had never had to do that because everyone was always taking care of me.

    22. KS

      Yes, 'cause they, they coddle you, Don.

    23. DL

      They coddle me.

    24. KS

      Now it's Don 2.0, lean and mean.

    25. DL

      Mm-hmm. I know. I know. And look, one, just real quick.

    26. KS

      Well, you are lean. You're mean.

    27. DL

      And so, and so, no, I was never mean. But so now I, I'm an entrepreneur, and I have to learn how to be an entrepreneur. And with that, I, I, you know, I tell people, "I don't know this part of the business. Help me out."

    28. KS

      Yeah.

    29. DL

      "Okay. Help me understand this."

    30. KS

      Mm-hmm.

Episode duration: 31:10

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