Don’t Fall for the Buy Now, Pay Later Trap | Pivot

Kara Swisher 0:00 ... I was in a store and they were pushing it on me, I'm like, "I'm not taking your shitty, like, buy now, pay later thing." Like, I don't need to, and I'm not gonna.

Narrator 0:07 (Instrumental music)

Kara Swisher 0:14 Hi, everyone. This is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Kara Swisher.

Scott Galloway 0:19 And I'm Scott Galloway.

Kara Swisher 0:20 Scott, how was your Thanksgiving? I saw a beautiful picture with you and your sons.

Scott Galloway 0:24 Oh, they're nice?

Kara Swisher 0:25 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 0:26 Uh, yeah, it was, uh... You know, the highlight of it was my, my oldest brought two friends from boarding school home.

Kara Swisher 0:35 Oh.

Scott Galloway 0:36 And they say that from about...

Kara Swisher 0:37 British folk?

Scott Galloway 0:38 Yeah. Both, both...

Kara Swisher 0:39 British folk.

Scott Galloway 0:39 Both British kids, and they say that the key indicator of your son's outcome is, is, uh, his peer group-

Kara Swisher 0:49 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 0:49 ... from a certain point on.

Kara Swisher 0:50 Right.

Scott Galloway 0:50 And it just made me feel so good about his prospects.

Kara Swisher 0:53 Oh.

Scott Galloway 0:53 These kids are just such good kids, you know?

Kara Swisher 0:55 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 0:55 You wanna say impressive kids and all that, ones implying... Or gotta...

Kara Swisher 0:59 Right.

Scott Galloway 0:59 ... go to Cambridge, but they're both just, like, lovely nice men.

Kara Swisher 1:02 So there wasn't any, like, rich kid louche thing, you know, British rich kid thing? None of that.

Scott Galloway 1:08 Oh, they had to sneak out to go score ketamine.

Kara Swisher 1:11 Right, of course.

Scott Galloway 1:11 But they... But other than that, um, and you know, they yelled at the help.

Kara Swisher 1:16 Oh, good.

Scott Galloway 1:16 But other than that, they were really... I'm, I'm kidding about all of this.

Kara Swisher 1:20 I understand.

Scott Galloway 1:20 Uh, really lovely young men, and it made me feel much more-

Kara Swisher 1:24 Good.

Scott Galloway 1:24 ... you know, safe and less worried about my son.

Kara Swisher 1:26 Good, good. And they had not done Thanksgiving, right? That's not a thing they do in the, in the British Isles.

Scott Galloway 1:30 It's not a British thing, so they were excited to come home and...

Kara Swisher 1:32 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 1:33 It was, yeah, it was, it was really nice. Um, how was your Thanksgiving?

Kara Swisher 1:37 Did you make them act out the Pilgrim? The ridiculous Pilgrim story?

Scott Galloway 1:40 Well, you know me in, in American, you know, history.

Kara Swisher 1:43 (laughs)

Scott Galloway 1:43 I just, I'm such a... (sighs)

Kara Swisher 1:46 Right.

Scott Galloway 1:46 I'm so... I didn't know it was Thanksgiving till Wednesday night when my calendar the next day was clear.

Kara Swisher 1:50 What? Because you, you don't do any preparation, do you? You don't do any? Do you?

Scott Galloway 1:52 Why would I? Comparative advantage.

Kara Swisher 1:54 What? What do you mean comparative advantage?

Scott Galloway 1:55 Daddy does one thing. He pays the fricking bills. Daddy is the nuclear reactor...

Kara Swisher 2:00 I understand. Maybe, like, make a side dish.

Scott Galloway 2:01 ... powering this aircraft here.

Kara Swisher 2:01 I didn't do anything either. What am I talking about? Um...

Scott Galloway 2:04 Don't describe Amanda as a side dish. I mean, she's good-looking, but...

Kara Swisher 2:07 She's not. No. Her, her mom does it all. She... Her mom and her dad.

Scott Galloway 2:10 Oh, you had it at the in-laws?

Kara Swisher 2:11 Yes. We went up to Boston. But first, I got to see the boys and we had a lovely family dinner, the four kids.

Scott Galloway 2:16 They look great.

Kara Swisher 2:16 They look great, and I worked out with Alex and hung out with Louie and, and stuff like that. And, um, and then we went up to Boston, which was fun, which the, the, the, the Gatzes put on a good Thanksgiving, I have to say.

Scott Galloway 2:27 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 2:27 Very intense.

Scott Galloway 2:27 Yeah, Amanda strikes me as someone who has well-adjusted parents.

Kara Swisher 2:30 They're... Indeed. There were seven pies, which was nice, and, and, uh, I got a special pumpkin pie because I like pumpkin and they never made it, but they made me one, which was very nice. I almost cried.

Scott Galloway 2:41 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 2:41 It was delicious. Yeah.

Scott Galloway 2:42 That's nice. That's nice.

Kara Swisher 2:43 Yeah, I had fun.

Scott Galloway 2:43 So what do you got going on this week?

Kara Swisher 2:45 Um... (sighs) Oh, lots of things. Gosh, I've gotta do just a... Uh, I, I'm gonna do something interesting. There's this 100th anniversary of The New Yorker, and I'm... Be interviewing, uh... I, I'm... I like The New Yorker, but... (laughs) Oh God, you're not... I'm staying at your place, by the way.

Scott Galloway 2:59 They wrote a critical review of my book, so I am-

Kara Swisher 3:02 No.

Scott Galloway 3:02 ... canceling the subscription. I never heard-

Kara Swisher 3:03 It's a documentary by, I think it's Judd Apatow did the documentary, and it's on Netflix, and they asked me to come and interview them at the event. So I'm gonna do that for my friend-

Scott Galloway 3:11 Mm-hmm.

Kara Swisher 3:11 ... David Remnick. But I love The New Yorker, I think it's done a great job over the many years. What did they say about your book?

Scott Galloway 3:15 I didn't know it was still around.

Kara Swisher 3:16 Oh my God, it's really successful, actually.

Scott Galloway 3:18 The New Yorker?

Kara Swisher 3:18 It's one of those, like, Wired... Yes, it's doing just fine.

Scott Galloway 3:20 That's Condé Nast, right?

Kara Swisher 3:22 Yes, but Condé Nast, not all of it is, but Wired is doing great and, uh, New Yorker is doing great, and Vogue to an extent.

Scott Galloway 3:29 Vogue.

Kara Swisher 3:29 They put out really good work, I have to say. Um, and then what else am I doing? I'm just here. I don't have to travel, Scott, which except for that, just trip to New York is super easy. Uh, but I'm coming up and, and coming back. But I'm here, I'm going to Christmas parties. I'm...

Scott Galloway 3:42 Nice.

Kara Swisher 3:42 I'm like very excited to be home.

Scott Galloway 3:44 What's the hottest invite in Christmas parties in DC?

Kara Swisher 3:48 Oh, I don't know. I don't... Uh, we're going to friends. Um-

Scott Galloway 3:50 Ooh, Matt Gaetz, I bet he throws a good party.

Kara Swisher 3:51 (laughs) I don't think he's still here. I think he's trolling little girls down in, uh, Florida. I'm not a big party-goer, Scott. I told you, I'm not very social. I like small gatherings, that's what I like. Anyway, uh, Thanksgiving was great. I'm looking forward. My birthday is coming up, obviously. You're preparing to buy me a present. That's...

Scott Galloway 4:08 Very excited about that.

Kara Swisher 4:09 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 4:10 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 4:10 Um, otherwise, I'm just, uh, here. I'm very excited to be in, in Washington, but Thanksgiving was nice. It's a gr-... I like Thanksgiving, it's my... I think it's one of my favorite holidays. Anyway, um, we have a lot to get to today. There's so much. And speaking of, like the news didn't frigging stop all weekend.

Scott Galloway 4:24 I know.

Kara Swisher 4:24 It was kind of crazy. Um, and a lot of it really quite grotesque, including the, the double bombing of people. You know, you bomb someone and then you go rescue them after you bomb them, but we'll get to that.

Scott Galloway 4:36 Mm-hmm.

Kara Swisher 4:36 We've got a lot to get today, including, uh, tech stocks are still on this crazy roller coaster. We're gonna talk about consumer spending because it's something you've talked a lot about, but that, those numbers are starting to come in. And then Trump's AI czar, David Sacks, uh, reaping his White House benefits. Of course, he's losing his mind because it's a mild criticism of his, you know, in, you know, inbredness. Uh, but first,

Kara Swisher 4:57 uh, shoppers turned out in force, as we said, for Black Friday, spending both record-breaking amount both online and in stores. Uh, online spending alone hit 11, uh, point, uh, $8 billion, up about 9% from last year, and overall sales were up around 4%, which is an enormous. A lot of the growth is just inflation though, not people going wild with their wallets. People actually bought fewer things. Order volumes dropped 1% but prices jumped 7%. Another twist, which Scott you talked about all of the time, higher income shoppers are spending like usual, but middle and lower income families are pulling back. Retailers are somewhat optimistic about the holiday season overall, with sales expected to top a trillion dollars for the first time ever. Again, inflation. Um, you know, you talk about this if the, if the rich people pull back, that's a real problem. But obviously middle and lower income families are feeling the pinch from inflation, and so they're buying. As Trump said, "You don't need so many dolls." And apparen- apparently they are not buying so many dolls. Um, and then there's the tariffs, et cetera. Talk about this, about w-... You know, you ran a retail business, uh, an online retail business. What does this mean? What do, what do you think is happening here?

Scott Galloway 6:02 Well, there's a lot there that... The reason why... I mean, in addition to the kind of moral problem or societal problem of having a top 10% responsible for 50%-

Kara Swisher 6:12 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 6:13 ...in consumer economy, what that says about our economy is that it makes the economy more fragile because if 60, 70, 80%, uh, of spend from a middle-class household, probably closer to 90%, are things they can't adjust up or down, they're going to have to figure out a way either on credit or to get a second job to maintain, to continue to pay to their mortgage or for groceries. Whereas when, when Oracle... I mean, Oracle's off... I forget what it's off, like 24%. Uh, it's down... Excuse me, it's down 22% in the last 30 days.

Kara Swisher 6:48 The markets are still rocky. Again, as we tape the S&P 500, the NASDAQ down, all down. Palantir was down 16% in November, its worst month since August 2023. Nvidia ended November down 12%. Oracle fell 28% last month. Morgan Stanley analysts are warning that Oracle's credit conditions could worsen next year, you think? So p- p- put that all in there because that's the, that's the, the big spenders presumably, right?

Scott Galloway 7:12 The consumer confidence for, for the top 10% is based on the most damaging metrics ever invented for Western society, and that's the S&P and the NASDAQ because more indicative or fruitful metrics would be like self-harm or suicide or body mass index or what Bhutan does, a happiness index, whatever it might be, or divorce, things that actual- actually drive purpose and meaning. And wealthy households will buy based on a number. They look at the value of their stock market portfolio and when it's really high, they feel comfortable going to Van Cleef & Arpels and giving money away to nonprofits and spending money on nicer vacations, whatever it might be, buying another car. And the thing about wealthy people that's... makes this economy less, uh, more fragile or less robust is that if Palantir goes down 80%, which it easily could, easily, and if Oracle went down 60%, see above easily could, and Nvidia went down 70%, which it easily could, what the top 10% are capable of doing, which the bottom 90 are not, is the top 10% on a dime could cut their discretionary spending by 70%.

Kara Swisher 8:32 Right. Will they, though? Will they feel not as jolly or what, you know, in terms-

Scott Galloway 8:36 Yeah. They... You can, you can correlate fractional jet ownership and inquiries to the stock market.

Kara Swisher 8:43 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 8:44 I've done the analysis. My speaking inbounds. What I track very closely, I love data, the number of inbound inquiries I get for speaking gigs. I've created... I've tried to create artificial scarcity around my speaking. The sexist word in the English language is no. I don't like to travel so I charge crazy fucking rates.

Kara Swisher 9:03 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 9:03 That's my rate. Crazy or free.

Kara Swisher 9:05 I hear it from people when I go speak for lesser amounts but go ahead.

Scott Galloway 9:08 When, when I... My rating, my price card is crazy or free and, and I can correlate the number of inquiries I get to the stock market because when Salesforce, w- when, when I'm speaking at an investment bank's annual gathering, M&A is way up and all of a sudden these niche investment banks are asking me to come speak. Why? Because they're making record fees. So when all of a sudden... And that's the dangerous thing about an economy reliant on the top 10%.

Kara Swisher 9:39 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 9:39 It's not only morally problematic, it makes it very fragile because they can take spending down on a dime.

Kara Swisher 9:45 Right.

Scott Galloway 9:45 And if you take the top 10% out, the economy is basically flat and then if you add in inflation, you could make an argument that spending is down. Now, in terms of attributes that I think are a little bit more interesting about or are interesting about this Black Friday, one, AI did play a role, kind of these AI tools and bots were responsible for, um... I think, uh, they think that about 10% or a 10% increase was due to AI tools and that... So in-store sales were basically flat. They were just up 1%. Online was up 10%.

Kara Swisher 10:20 Right. One percent is nothing. Right.

Scott Galloway 10:21 But also, AI-driven traffic to US retail stores soared 800% or 9X. So AI is starting to creep into retail. The stat that people aren't talking about that I think is really important-

Kara Swisher 10:33 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 10:33 ...and quite frankly very upsetting and a negative forward-looking indicator is that, uh, buy now, pay later usage surged on Black Friday-

Kara Swisher 10:42 Oh.

Scott Galloway 10:42 ...and it's up 9% overall and it-

Kara Swisher 10:44 With young people or everybody?

Scott Galloway 10:45 Young people.

Kara Swisher 10:46 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 10:46 41% of shoppers aged 61 to... 16 to 24 use buy now, pay later.

Kara Swisher 10:50 Oh. Such a waste of money.

Scott Galloway 10:51 And milleni- millennials, get this, increased their usage 87%-

Kara Swisher 10:56 Mm-hmm. They can't afford it.

Scott Galloway 10:57 ...compared to 2024. Even 38% of people-

Kara Swisher 10:59 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 10:59 ...making over 100K are now using buy now, pay later and-

Kara Swisher 11:04 Yeah. We hate those. We hate... By the way, just for listeners, we hate buy now, pay later. We think it's-

Scott Galloway 11:08 And you can't infantilize people. They get to use their own credit. You know, people get to decide if they want to use credit or not. But the thing I hate about the positioning of these things is they somehow frame it as innovation and that it's not actual debt. It's, it's a new culture.

Kara Swisher 11:21 It's usury.

Scott Galloway 11:21 Young people don't want to get caught in a debt. It's debt.

Kara Swisher 11:24 It's usury. That's what-

Scott Galloway 11:25 It's debt.

Kara Swisher 11:26 I agree.

Scott Galloway 11:27 And if you don't pay it back... I mean, the innovation is they take the initial VIG, the initial interest rate from the retailer because what happens is... I was on the board at Urban Outfitters and the initial buy now, pay later guys came to us and said, "Let us do this. We offer people automatic credit. They're checking out and say, 'Would you like an additional $100, $200 in purchasing power?' And someone's headed to Coachella and they think, 'Yeah,' and they go back and they fill up their basket and we pay the fees." Urban Outfitters pays a small portion of that incremental purchase back to the BM-. It's a great business model, except all you're really doing is tapping into the urgency, the need for now-And a lot of these kids end up, a lot of young people end up in debt. I don't know what to do about it-

Kara Swisher 12:10 Right.

Scott Galloway 12:10 ... because you can't infantilize young people and they need to buy presents.

Kara Swisher 12:11 Well, except that it makes it, it's sort of like the subprime mortgage. Of course you can buy a h- I, I was seeing bits and pieces of that movie, um, that it was based on, um, 'cause I wanted to go back 'cause of the, the situation.

Scott Galloway 12:22 The Big Short?

Kara Swisher 12:22 The Big Short.

Scott Galloway 12:23 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 12:23 Michael Burry is in the news, obviously. And I have to say, like the people who are sell- of course they can't afford it. Just load 'em up. Like, I, I, it's not inf- infantilizing people to say, "You're not creditworthy. You're just not." Right? And to give people sort of these long lead... I don't know. I think it's usury. I think it's- takes advantage of them and it makes it feel like it's free and therefore it, it spurs spending like you said. Like, go in and get more. I, I, I just don't... It's, they can't pay it back and then we're stuck in sort of this credit squeeze and then the retailers will be eventually, or whoever's holding these loans in. It just go, it just iterates through the system that, that we're encouraging, like, ridiculous spending well beyond people's ability to buy. I, I was in a store and they were pushing it on me. I'm like, "I'm not taking your shitty, like, buy now, pay later thing." Like, I don't need to and I'm not gonna. Um, so we, let me, let... We're going to some, another important story in a bit. What do you imagine is g- where spending's gonna end up in December? Down? D- what, what does it depend on? Really briefly.

Scott Galloway 13:25 Uh, tell me where the market's going to be in December.

Kara Swisher 13:27 Okay.

Scott Galloway 13:28 If-

Kara Swisher 13:29 Even up to Christmas. Yeah, you're right. It'll, it'll... 'Cause people do-

Scott Galloway 13:31 The, the media is obsessed with the metrics around the market and if the sto- if stocks and AI stocks hold on, I think you're gonna see more spending and also these... This is why... I was talking to a kid today who was negotiating a new job. This is why options and equity is where you wanna negotiate around salary if you're working for a big company because you're up against godlike technology to try and sequester you from your relationships and take... Figure out the exact right offer at the exact right moment to take every conceivable dollar and all your debt capacity from you. And I wanna be clear. Up until the age of 35 or 40, I spent everything that came through my hands. I just... Oh, I, I have a, I could... Well, you know, i- at the exact right moment, "Oh, just for $80 more, you can upgrade to business class." Oh, why not a pair of Bombas socks with these new pair on? I mean, it is just impo- it is so difficult to have the discipline to save money so what you want is you want forced savings. And equity or some- and to a certain extent, house... The reason why housing has built so much wealth is not because it's outperformed by other asset classes-

Kara Swisher 14:37 You can't sell it fast.

Scott Galloway 14:37 ... but because it's a, it's a form of forced savings.

Kara Swisher 14:39 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 14:40 That's why 401 (k) , tax advantaged vehicles, but basically if people feel if the stock market keeps going up or it recovers, and especially with AI stocks, that's what... And then AI will come in with great offers and I think it's gonna be an AI Christmas. Everyone's gonna be talking about how much traffic AI drove.

Kara Swisher 15:01 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 15:02 And I think you're gonna see luxury brands continue to do better and better.

Kara Swisher 15:05 For now.

Scott Galloway 15:05 But tell me what... If the week before... I mean, this is the dirty secret of retail. I, I started something called Red Envelope. About 46 weeks a year we lose money and then for six weeks we print it. Basically from a week before Thanksgiving to New Years, full price, fluttering everyone's in- inbox, full margin and you just print, print money. So this is really kind of very, very important to retail but I think that... I mean, Amazon's saying that headphones that were $300 are now on sale today for $299, I wouldn't call as real- really courageous. And what I'm, I'm hoping... Uh, for me, I kept going, browsing all these sites who were offering emotional stability on sale. That's the Black Friday I need, Kara.

Kara Swisher 15:53 (laughs) So speaking of, uh, stability, Donald Trump

Kara Swisher 15:57 says he's made his pick for the next Fed chair though he's not sharing a name yet. National Economic Council Director Kevin Hassett, uh, probably the, the most ex- ex- excellent suck-up I've ever seen, is a rumored frontrunner with several current and former Fed governors also in the mix. Treasury Secretary Scott Bessent, who previously said he didn't want the job, said last week that Trump could announce a nominee before Christmas. All of this is happening as the Fed prepares to meet later this month for a closely watched interest rate decision which people aren't really sure about. Two things. Uh, I think Hassett is like literally the... And so many economists I talk to have always thought he was smart, now are like, "What happened to Hassett?" essentially. And of course he sucks up continually and, and I would say lies on, on, on the air quite a bit about where inflation is in numbers. Like he did one about gas prices, none of which was factual and he had to be fact checked on i- in real time and he just kept smiling like an idiot throughout the whole thing. Um, do you have a, someone, you have a, a dark horse you think? And then what, do you think they'll cut, uh, rates in, uh, in their, in, when they meet, uh, later this month?

Scott Galloway 16:59 Yeah, I mean it's not gonna consider the people I'd want. I'd wanna go, uh, I'd want something like Austan Goolsbee or, uh, a Justin Wolfers or I'd, I'd like... Uh, yeah, I think Janet Yellen was fanta- I, I, I want someone who's just a total fucking wonk and, and sits by the fire with a Labrador and just looks through data all day long.

Kara Swisher 17:17 Mm-hmm. That's not happening.

Scott Galloway 17:19 We could do a lot worse than this guy. He, he's known for writing a book that could not have been more wrong. He tried to predict the market and, uh, you know, that's a difficult business.

Kara Swisher 17:28 We could do worse? (laughs) He wrote a book that was completely wrong. Okay.

Scott Galloway 17:32 I know but he does... Okay. He, he did st- he wa- he is an economist in the research and statistics department in 1992. He did serve in the Treasury Department under Clinton and Bush. He's not-

Kara Swisher 17:43 No.

Scott Galloway 17:43 ... not a dumb man and also-

Kara Swisher 17:44 But people think he's lost his mind. Every economist I talk to liked him and now does not like him.

Scott Galloway 17:50 Let me be clear. Not my pick. It could be worse. I wouldn't, I just wouldn't have put it past-

Kara Swisher 17:56 And that's where we are.

Scott Galloway 17:57 Yeah, exactly. I wouldn't have put it past him to, uh, appoint Don Jr. I mean...

Kara Swisher 18:02 Right. Yeah, fair point.

Scott Galloway 18:03 Anyways, I don't... This is not who I would have picked. I would have renominated Jero- Chairman Powell. I would have said, "Hey, you can leave any time. Will you do this for another three or four years?" He's not listening to me.... but I actually, when I first saw this, I thought, "Yeah, not ideal. Could be a lot worse."

Kara Swisher 18:20 All right. Any other names you think? Just all of a, out of the blue? Could be Don Jr. You're 100% right.

Scott Galloway 18:26 It just, at this point-

Kara Swisher 18:27 If he had a pet, it could be his pet. That's, that's where we are.

Scott Galloway 18:30 I actually think-

Kara Swisher 18:31 If he does have a pet.

Scott Galloway 18:31 ... I would, if I'd ha- if someone had said, "Guess who it's gonna be, s-

Kara Swisher 18:34 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 18:34 ... be," I would've thought it would've been Bessant.

Kara Swisher 18:36 Mm-mm.

Scott Galloway 18:37 Um-

Kara Swisher 18:37 Another thirsty person who's lost his reputation.

Scott Galloway 18:40 But again, you're asking me who I th-

Kara Swisher 18:42 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 18:42 ... thought he was gonna appoint, not who I think he should appoint. Um, but yeah, I don't-

Kara Swisher 18:47 I thought it was Hass. He's been all over the airwaves and that's what Trump likes, right? He's been all over the... He can't shut his-

Scott Galloway 18:52 I mean, Kevin Warsh, he's a former Fed governor.

Kara Swisher 18:55 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 18:55 Christopher Waller. The thing about Trump is he does take, he clearly doesn't take national defense seriously.

Kara Swisher 19:02 Mm.

Scott Galloway 19:02 He clearly doesn't take the (laughs) health of America seriously.

Kara Swisher 19:05 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 19:05 The Department of Education, he just thinks is a, a joke.

Kara Swisher 19:08 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 19:09 He thinks it's a joke.

Kara Swisher 19:10 Yeah. Congress is a joke.

Scott Galloway 19:10 And he's almost, he's almost angry at it, and he puts a woman in charge who, when asked about A-

Kara Swisher 19:16 Yeah. 8-

Scott Galloway 19:16 ... AI-

Kara Swisher 19:17 (laughs)

Scott Galloway 19:17 ... describes it as A1.

Kara Swisher 19:18 A?

Scott Galloway 19:18 She thinks it's steak sauce.

Kara Swisher 19:20 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 19:21 But around the economy-

Kara Swisher 19:23 I don't think he wants steak sauce, by the way.

Scott Galloway 19:23 ... he at least appears to acknowledge the person has to have at least taken statistics in high school. He does a, he will appoint an economist, and I-

Kara Swisher 19:32 He should put Jamie Dimon in the job, not that he would take it.

Scott Galloway 19:35 I don't think Jamie's that wonky. I think Jamie-

Kara Swisher 19:37 No, you're right.

Scott Galloway 19:37 ... would be a good Treasury Secretary-

Kara Swisher 19:38 He'd just be a good president.

Scott Galloway 19:38 ... but not chairman of the Fed.

Kara Swisher 19:40 He wants to be president of the United States.

Scott Galloway 19:41 Yeah, I think Jamie, I wouldn't be surprised if Jamie runs-

Kara Swisher 19:43 He's all over, speaking of all over the place. Th- y- you know. He's going to an opening of a door. Uh, anyway, uh, I, we'll see with this guy.

Scott Galloway 19:50 He won't come on our pod though. I keep inviting him.

Kara Swisher 19:52 Yeah, he won't, he won't come on mine because he's an idiot.

Scott Galloway 19:53 I had his chief economist on, really impressive guy.

Kara Swisher 19:54 We had a very testy dinner, so he doesn't like-

Scott Galloway 19:57 You and Jamie?

Kara Swisher 19:58 Yeah. I think he's really smart.

Scott Galloway 20:00 Oh, he's very smart. He's a great leader too.

Kara Swisher 20:01 We were arguing about China. He was lecturing me about China on the internet, and I was-

Scott Galloway 20:05 Great leader.

Kara Swisher 20:05 ... not having it. I was just like, "No."

Scott Galloway 20:07 His chief economist, Michael St. Louis, is really impressive too.

Kara Swisher 20:09 He kept saying they were copycats. I'm like, "They are to an extent, but they're actually getting very innovative." This was years ago. And-

Scott Galloway 20:15 That's the key to economic growth. What do you think we did? We-

Kara Swisher 20:17 That, that's what I say.

Scott Galloway 20:18 ... we, we stole textile manufacturing technology from Europe-

Kara Swisher 20:21 And then we got innovative.

Scott Galloway 20:22 ... and then kidnapped their artisans to build-

Kara Swisher 20:24 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 20:24 ... up and down the Eastern Seaboard factories.

Kara Swisher 20:26 Yeah, but then we did something with it, right? And I said, "I think there's a lot of innovation." This was years ago. I said, "In cars, in all kinds of areas, like in manufacturing." And we just got into it. It was very funny. (laughs) Uh, he's not used to being disagreed with. That's all I'd say.

Scott Galloway 20:40 Mm, I don't, I, I'm-

Kara Swisher 20:42 I like him. I think he's-

Scott Galloway 20:43 ... I, I'm generally impressed, very impressed with David Solomon. Impressed with him.

Kara Swisher 20:44 I'm impressed by him. He just won't do an interview with me, but that's okay.

Scott Galloway 20:46 Well, he won't do one with us either. I've invited him on. You want to-

Kara Swisher 20:49 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 20:49 David Solomon's coming on Prop Chief.

Kara Swisher 20:51 Oh, he's a fun guy. We've had him on.

Scott Galloway 20:52 Yeah. Yeah, this guy, he's smart.

Kara Swisher 20:53 He's a fun guy. He really is. Anyway, uh, let's, we'll see what happens. We think it's gonna be, uh, the, the best suck-up, which is Kevin Hassett, who's not the worst choice. It's not Don Jr. That's how we say it. It's not Don Jr. Wouldn't it be funny if he gave it to Barron? He'd be the tallest, uh, Treasury, I mean, uh, Fed chair.

Scott Galloway 21:09 Barron?

Kara Swisher 21:10 Oh my God, he's so tall.

Scott Galloway 21:11 A big man.

Kara Swisher 21:12 All right, Scott, let's go on a quick break. When we come back, how David Sacks is benefiting as White House AIs are.

Scott Galloway 21:19 Support for the show comes from Saks Fifth Avenue. Saks Fifth Avenue makes it easy to holiday your way. Whether it's finding the right gift or the right outfit, Saks is where you can find everything from a stunning David Yurman bracelet for her or a sleek pair of Ferragamo loafers to wear to a fancy holiday dinner. And if you don't know where to start, saks.com has customized your personal style so you can save time shopping and spend more time just enjoying the holidays. Make shopping fun and easy this season and find gifts and inspiration to suit your holiday style at Saks Fifth Avenue.

Kara Swisher 21:49 Scott,

Kara Swisher 21:50 we're back. Tech bros are reaping the benefits of the Trump administration, as if we didn't know that, but the biggest winner might be White House AI and crypto czar, uh, David Sacks. Uh, by the way, cryptos, Bit- Bitcoin's real down recently, by the way, according to a piece in the New York Times, which was m- a mild criticism. His, and, and all sort of, sort of the obvious, uh, Sacks has kept his role as a Silicon Valley investor while serving as a special government employee. That's the way he gets out of it. Ethics waivers, he said he was selling or had sold most of his crypto and AI assets, but the Times found he has more than 700 tech investments that stand to benefit from policies helping shape, and in fact are f- are focused on AI. In his White House role, he's opened the doors to his tech network and pushed to clear regulatory hurdles to the AI firms and attacking any AI firms that don't, you know, go along, like he, he did a really weird attack of Anthropic as if they were, like, part of a... I don't know. He, and he of course never talks about safety, never talks about anything, and they all get to have dinner with Trump. So, uh, Sacks, uh, deemed the story a nothing burger, and tech folks, of course, are really in a very sen- overly sensitive way coming to his defense. Marc Benioff said the article was almost strategic sabotage. Oh, Marc. Marc Andreessen called Sacks a credit to our nation. Um, let me just, I'm gonna start with this. Listen, I'm thrilled we're doing lots of stuff in AI. I think we should invest in it. I've talked about it for years. But this is such an i- in- this is such an insider game for all of them. There's, they don't have anyone who has safety issues. He zeroes out people who, like Anthropic, who have just a little bit of concern for people. This is not about the American people. This is not about democracy. This is about the rich getting their shit and telling us what to do, and their ridiculously over, overweening, uh, reaction was just example of that. This was the mildest of criticisms to point this out, and they're losing their ever-lovin' minds. And I find nothing wrong with pushing AI. I think it's a real opportunity for whatever the president is, but this is so clearly, these dinners, these, it's grifty to the extreme, and it's benefited all of them, including David Sacks. Thank you.

Scott Galloway 23:52 I didn't even read the article.

Kara Swisher 23:53 Go ahead.

Scott Galloway 23:53 I knew what it said before I read it.

Kara Swisher 23:54 Yeah. Yeah.

Scott Galloway 23:55 Um, and this is-

Kara Swisher 23:57 All they did was go through this, companies. It was just a, it was a mathematical thing, but go ahead.

Scott Galloway 24:02 Yeah, look. I, I come back to the same place, and that is, he's playing the game that's been set up where if you... I do- I don't, I've never listened to the All In pod, but I've seen clips of it. And it strikes me that they figured out the best economic model in history is to try and-... is proximity and suck up to the President in hopes that he'll give y- h- he and some of your companies regulatory capture or just straight-up government contracts, or maybe award you TikTok at 80% off, that that's the fastest way to go from being worth 50 million to five billion. Or to get your nephew out of prison is just to show up at one of his fundraisers and say, "I'm in for three million for you renovating the East Wing." So I don't... Uh, uh, you read the article, I didn't. I don't see him doing anything different than anybody else that, that is engaged in this conflict of interest, and it all leads back to the same place for me. I think the government, to get that call to serve at the highest levels and be an official advisor in a senior policy position is extremely prestigious, and it should be. And in exchange for doing that, it's absolutely a, a, a signal, accommodation, acknowledgment of your success, and in exchange for taking that position, everything you own, everything you have an interest in, is put in a blind trust. And, and, and also, I think we need to pay these people more. But i- i- we ha- we can't have public policy and competitive markets shaped on who has proximity to the President, 'cause anyone who doesn't ends up-

Kara Swisher 25:31 Right.

Scott Galloway 25:31 ... leaking advantage to those who do. This is just more of the same.

Kara Swisher 25:34 Yeah, I think the, the... If, if he was gonna go in and, and impo- improve AI, which is great idea, w- he would, he would look for ways we could all agree. Like he would, he would deal with universities. He would bring in other people, not fucking Mar- how many times has Marc Andreessen been to Mar-a-Lago? Dozens, right? Or whatever it number is. They, they all get to go. I haven't been asked by David Sacks. I disagree with him. I think I have some ideas. Like, he doesn't ask critics. He doesn't ask for feedback. He's not, he's never said the word safety once at all. He's not doing this for all Americans, people. He's doing it for him and his cronies, and that is perfectly fine. This is not a new Washington thing where the cronies don't, uh, belly up to the bar or pigs to the trough. This is not a new thing. It's just this... W- every time they get criticized, like literally it... I, I, I don't even mind them, like, going crazy about this and acting like it was, "Oh, how dare you insult our genius?" Wh- I'm so used to that bullshit, like, 'cause they're such victims themselves. I really got offended when h- he attacked Anthropic in a really rid- like it, it, he picked out an... This is the AI head. He should shut his fucking mouth about individual companies. Anthropic is more safety conscious, and they should be able to say it and be part of the conversation i- in a bigger way. And everybody, if you're the real AI advisor to the President, you let them hear problems too, right? You let them hear, like, criticisms. You let people in. And this is just, this is just pigs at the trough, same thing. And, uh, again, not new but to, th- th- when they get offended by it, it makes me exhausted by these people. They're so overly sensitive. Anyway, go ahead.

Scott Galloway 27:09 Let me just say that I find the thing that's most problematic in that... (sighs) And I don't know if the NYT reported on this, but he received ethics waivers in March and, and said that he'd sold or begun selling many conflicting assets. So I understand the conflict. I'm not guilty of it, and I'm making personal and financial sacrifice to reduce the actual in appearance of conflict. And what it ends up is he has hundreds of investments in companies that have reclassified themselves as computer-

Kara Swisher 27:38 Yes.

Scott Galloway 27:38 ... or hardware that are basically AI companies.

Kara Swisher 27:40 Yes. They have AI in every website. That's what... That's all they did. That's all The Times did. Sorry, Marc Benioff. It isn't like strategic fucking sabotage. What is... I'm sorry, I know you're on Mark's side, but stop it, Mark. There's no-

Scott Galloway 27:53 I did not understand why Mark came to David's be- uh, defense.

Kara Swisher 27:55 Uh, it's 'cause he, he's so thirsty and wants to get in. Mark, it's so disappointing. It's just a story that shows that his companies are very much in conflict of interest. That's all. So calm the fuck down, all you dudes. Anyway, um, the d- anyway, it was so mild. It was so mild.

Kara Swisher 28:12 Anyway, Donald Trump is escalating his immigration crackdowns o- in another area after two National Guard members were shot, one of them fatally, near the White House last week. And, and, uh, condolences to the family of that woman, uh, National Guard woman, um, allegedly by an Afghan national on Thanks- it's very confusing. On Thanksgiving, Trump posted he's permanently pausing migration from, quote, "third world countries," whatever that means, and is ending federal benefits for non-citizens. He also... These are workers who, who contribute to our society. He also threatened to denaturalize Americans he claims are undermining domestic tranquility. That means you and me, Scott, I guess. Tru- uh, Trump said only reverse migration can fully cure this situation. All asylum decisions have been halted for the time being. Kristi Noem made a... went around and said illegal things all over the place. Um, Ian Bremmer pointed out on Threads this is basically a gift to China and any other country eager to scoop up foreign talent. It also hurts everybody from people who take care of the elderly here, to stores, to factories, to, um, to go after. And there were some... There was a really interesting look at Chicago, and almost all... there was just... Of the 4,000 arrests, maybe 100 had criminal, uh, criminal problems, and, uh, very few of them had serious problems. It was more like they missed an appointment versus, um, versus anything serious. I think the number of serious people was a dozen of the 4,000 people. Th- it was mostly hardworking people that they targeted and, uh, uh, and, and violently I would say. Um, so thoughts on this? I mean, from an economic point of view this has... And denaturalize Americans? How in the hell can you do that?

Scott Galloway 29:50 Oh, this is just awful on a number of levels, and we don't know if this person had a mental health episode or... and I don't mean to diminish the tragedy here. But, I mean, watching Secretary Noem put herself in knots trying to blame the Biden administration for setting in place the policies that the Trump administration then granted this individual som-... And by the way, I think it's really important that when we have pers- people supporting and collaborating with us in saving American servicemen's life and taking huge risks themselves-

Kara Swisher 30:19 Like in Vietnam we did at every, everywhere we go.

Scott Galloway 30:21 ... and then repatriating them, giving them opportunity to immigrate here...If this threatens that, I think that's just awful because, uh, I mean, there's a bigger issue around letting, uh, letting the best and brightest come to our nation at all levels with the kind of labor stack. But I think we do, we, we weaken or we put our servicemen and women in much greater peril when we are not taken seriously or the cr- the promise of getting you out of a hostile territory when you decide, uh, uh... You know, these people, if you don't get these people out and after you've abandoned Afghanistan and, and... (laughs) These people are gonna die terrible deaths and their families if you don't g- if you don't give them asylum here. So when I saw this, I thought, "I hope they don't use this as an excuse to stop." At the end of the day, we will be less safe overseas and our fine men and women in uniform will have a diff- more difficult time accomplishing missions if they don't, if the people over there don't feel as if America's gonna look after them.

Kara Swisher 31:24 Yep.

Scott Galloway 31:24 If they, in fact, if they, in fact, um, aid us. All right, so this is just... I mean, this is bad all the way around. I don't-

Kara Swisher 31:31 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 31:32 I don't know how to, I don't know how to frame this other than this is a tragedy on a number of levels.

Kara Swisher 31:36 Yeah, it's just, it's nuts. Like, look, obviously, we bring people back here, as you said, because they helped us. This was vetted by the Trump administration, and of course, Kristi Noem is doing every pretzel possible, by the way, saying she wouldn't follow federal judges' rulings. I was like, "Are you, like, getting ready to be arrested soon when this is done?" Because she's just like, these people are self-owning themselves legally, like, a lot. You know, "I don't listen to judges." Oh, good. That, when we arrest you, we will be playing this particular, uh, thing. I, the fact that she doesn't wanna figure out what happened here and instead just lay blame. Um, obviously, there was a mental... He was working for a, a, a, I think it's called the Zero Team, which was a particularly brutal, um, group that he worked for. He might have had a mental breakdown. He obviously wasn't, when he was granted asylum by the Trump administration, he obviously was not vetted properly, right? And, and that is what it is. And again, I wouldn't even blame them for that, right? Like, you, nothing's perfect in any of these vettings by the way. But the fact is they have to lay on blame to Biden, by the way, who looked rather rigorous over the holidays, I will say.

Scott Galloway 32:43 (laughs)

Kara Swisher 32:44 Um, uh, it just felt, it just felt, it just is like, these people cannot ever just have a tragedy happen and try to solve it. They have to do threats, and they have to u- uh, use everything for a political end. And in this case, it's really bad for our economy. That's all I kept thinking as they were yammering on. Um, and, and still, and it remains a tragedy for all these families that get upended in a really unnecessary way. Anyway, um, I would recommend you listening to people like Ian Bremmer and others so you can understand the economic implications of this. Um, all right, Scott, let's go on a quick break. When we come back, Melania's new production company. Scott,

Kara Swisher 33:24 we're back with a very important story. Melania Trump has launched a new production company called Muse Films. The first project is a documentary titled Melania. Set for global theatrical release in January, the film will spotlight, uh, the 20 days leading up to Trump's 2025 inauguration. The documentary's rights were reportedly bought by Amazon MGM Studios in a bribe... Oh, I mean, uh, they thought it was a great thing, for $40 million. I don't know the last time a documentary got that amount. Um, I, uh, the director of Melania, Brett Ratner, is staying busy thanks to the Trumps again. Ratner, who'd been accused, very credibly, in a really br- uh, an astonishing piece in The New York Times actually, of sexual harassment and misconduct, um, is at work on Rush Hour 4 after President Trump reportedly pushed Paramount to revive the franchise. I don't feel like we need Rush Hour 4. I did like Rush Hour, the original one. Um, so what do you think of this? It feels like another Obama group that's not gonna... She's gonna make one shitty thing and then that's it, these sort of vanity production companies, right?

Scott Galloway 34:25 Yeah, whether it's the Markles or the Obamas-

Kara Swisher 34:28 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 34:28 ... this is nothing unusual. And that is people who studios convince. Studios like proximity to famous people, powerful people. Also, their fame can lead to... Usually when they write a book, they, it does really well, sells a lot.

Kara Swisher 34:42 Sometimes, yeah.

Scott Galloway 34:43 Um, uh, what the Obamas and the Markles, quite frankly, developed a reputation for was cashing checks and then not wanting to actually do any work.

Kara Swisher 34:51 Right.

Scott Galloway 34:51 And these things kind of fizzled out and really didn't go anywhere. But what... And look, buyer beware. If they wanna let- leverage their celebrity to... Every author wants to be overpaid. Everyone who write, uh, signs their film production up wants to be overpaid. That's your agent's job is to make the studio, I won't say regret it, but when my book agent negotiates my book deals, i- if I don't get royalties, that means he's done his job. It means he got a big upfront advance or... So them going out and getting deals is fine. What's different here is the following, and it is a distinct difference. They waited, the Ob- the Obamas waited until they were out of office and weren't in a position to influence mergers and acquisitions, uh, with the DOJ or the FTC. The First Lady should not be entering into commercial agreements in exchange for, wink wink, "I'll make sure this acquisition does or does not go through." Netflix, Netflix probably will not get, unless it's some sort of club deal, Warner Brothers because Reed Hastings is known as a Democrat. And so when you say to m- when... This has nothing to do with the untapped, extraordinarily deep creative talents of Melania Trump. Okay? So what this is, is okay, will this put us in a favorable light for $40 million on all regulatory concerns from the FCC around mergers we want or business we want from the most powerful man in the world? And it's bullshit. It all comes back to the same level. If you decide to be in public service, you and your family give up, you get a lot. You get a lot of great shit. You get to fly out on a really cool plane. You can get reservations anywhere for the rest of your life. You get a library named after you. People stand up when you walk into the room.... the downside is you cannot have (laughs) conflicts of any sort like this. And Melania Trump, I've always thought, quite frankly, the first lady, uh, First Lady Trump, I've always thought like, I, I've never understood. I think she's a fir- let me, I think she's the worst first lady in history.

Kara Swisher 36:50 Right.

Scott Galloway 36:50 I, I don't, I don't think she does anything redeeming. I, I, I, I'm still convinced... I, I wanna give her this. I think her English is better than my Czech. I've never heard her speak. Uh, she's guilty of the same chain migration-

Kara Swisher 37:04 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 37:04 ... that they're all claiming.

Kara Swisher 37:05 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 37:05 Fine. Uh, uh, she obviously wants nothing to do with him. She's never at the White House. Uh, fine. But, but at the same time, there's no... I, I don't ever feel a need to... I think it's a little unfair when people go after family members, whether it's the first lady or what have you. If she wants to go into film production the day after she leaves office, more power to her. And if someone is stupid enough to believe she has any insight into cre- the creative process, fine. And maybe she does have contacts. Maybe people would be so interested-

Kara Swisher 37:33 No.

Scott Galloway 37:33 ... if she's willing to say, "Okay, this is, this is the behind the scenes story of, of this guy."

Kara Swisher 37:39 No, it's not gonna be interesting in any way.

Scott Galloway 37:41 I agree. But my point is, it, this all comes back to the same thing-

Kara Swisher 37:45 Right.

Scott Galloway 37:45 ... whether it's what we were talking about with David Sacks' conflict of interest, you don't do these deals and excep- accept tens of millions of dollars-

Kara Swisher 37:53 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 37:53 ... while you're in office.

Kara Swisher 37:54 She does. Well, come on. She's been for sale from the get-go since she, she took a plane over here. Come on. Let's be clear what she is. It's just the price. (laughs) It's just the price.

Scott Galloway 38:02 Well, okay. I wanna be clear.

Kara Swisher 38:04 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 38:04 I think we're all for sale to a certain extent. I don't begrudge her-

Kara Swisher 38:06 Not quite like this. Or her.

Scott Galloway 38:08 I've done, I've done, I've done worse things for a lot less money than sleep with Donald Trump.

Kara Swisher 38:11 I don't think you would fuck Donald Trump.

Scott Galloway 38:13 I don't know. I don't know.

Kara Swisher 38:14 I don't think you would. I don't think you-

Scott Galloway 38:15 Enough beers? I don't know.

Kara Swisher 38:17 I don't think so.

Scott Galloway 38:17 At this point here?

Kara Swisher 38:17 I literally think you, even you would be like-

Scott Galloway 38:20 Even then, you think no?

Kara Swisher 38:22 ... "There's no amount of money." No. No.

Scott Galloway 38:22 I don't, I don't begrudge people for wanting a better li- who knows? Maybe, he's powerful. Maybe she's attracted to him.

Kara Swisher 38:28 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 38:28 I don't, I don't even wanna go there. It's fine.

Kara Swisher 38:29 I, I shall. I, that's pretty clear. Let me just like make one Melania observation is, she's... The only thing I ever liked about Melania were those fucking crazy blood trees. I thought-

Scott Galloway 38:40 Blood trees?

Kara Swisher 38:40 ... "What a bitch. I love her for this." The, remember-

Scott Galloway 38:43 Mm-hmm.

Kara Swisher 38:43 ... when she did the Christmas trees that were all red and they were bloody? The bloody Christmas tree, when she took the White House and she decorated with these really blood red trees, it was so evil that I, I was like, "Good for you, girl. You, you decided to lean into crazy and you did it." And I, that's the only part I like. If she did... If this film is like that, I'm gonna watch it. That's my only critique.

Scott Galloway 39:05 You know, so now, I'm having trouble. Every time I see a really cute picture of penguins greeting a pigeon or a-

Kara Swisher 39:13 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 39:13 ... a, a lion taking care of a small wolf or something, I immediately go, "Is this AI?"

Kara Swisher 39:19 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 39:19 And I saw this thing that I was convinced A- it was AI.

Kara Swisher 39:22 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 39:22 And it was First Lady Melania Trump talking about the threats of AI to a squadron-

Kara Swisher 39:27 Oh, yes.

Scott Galloway 39:27 ... of military. "Self-guided drones."

Kara Swisher 39:31 Drones. SpeakerI

Kara Swisher 42:39 feel like I, I am her (laughs) uh, Carol. Um, like, "No, get the fuck away from me," or, "No, give me a grenade," or whatever. I love that show. It is such an inc- That guy has just made me think in all kinds of new ways.

Scott Galloway 42:54 He's a genius.

Kara Swisher 42:54 Genius.

Scott Galloway 42:56 Vince Gilligan is a genius.

Kara Swisher 42:56 It is so, and it's also funny, funny, funny, funny. Like, uh, every bit of it. And I just, uh, it's not dark, but it is, and I just, uh, it's made me... I can't stop thinking of it. That's what I would say. The winner, uh, run, don't walk to watch Pluribus. It is so good. It is that good, and I, I appreciate you showing that, giving me that.

Scott Galloway 43:15 Oh, good. I'm glad.

Kara Swisher 43:16 Yeah. That's my, I guess that's my win-fail, I guess? I mean, my fail is the continued ridiculous sensitivity of the grifters of tech who pretend that they're doing this for all of us when they're doing it for them. That would be my fail, but they're, they're always my fail. They're such greedy little pigs. Anyway, go ahead.

Scott Galloway 43:33 Um, so my win is I, I haven't been a fan of the series but I went and saw the third one and I thought it was just so fantastic. I saw Knives Out.

Kara Swisher 43:41 Oh, I love that, uh, I love those movies.

Scott Galloway 43:42 And I saw the third-

Kara Swisher 43:44 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 43:44 ... and I just thought it was so wonderful. I, I don't get a lot of-

Kara Swisher 43:47 Benoit, right? Is his name Benoit?

Scott Galloway 43:49 Yeah. Uh, so-

Kara Swisher 43:51 Yeah. Benoit.

Scott Galloway 43:51 ... um, Daniel Craig, I thought he was the most physical James Bond. He's also, I think, the best actor. I think he, and he's also, he is great in this. And the kid who plays the priest, um... I gotta get the cast. The kid who plays the priest is gonna be a movie star.

Kara Swisher 44:07 Yeah, Joe.

Scott Galloway 44:08 Um-

Kara Swisher 44:08 What's his name? Joe.

Scott Galloway 44:09 Who plays the younger, uh-

Kara Swisher 44:10 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 44:11 ... uh, the younger priest. And also, you know who I've never been... I'm not, um, uh, I would say I'm not a, um, um, a huge fan, but I just think, I hope... She's the most talented actress that has yet to win an Academy Award.

Kara Swisher 44:26 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 44:26 Glenn Close-

Kara Swisher 44:28 Oh.

Scott Galloway 44:28 ... was so good.

Kara Swisher 44:30 She's always great.

Scott Galloway 44:31 And she was-

Kara Swisher 44:32 Also love Tom Stoppard. She gave a great tribute to him.

Scott Galloway 44:34 She's also, uh, she's 78. She's been nominated, get this, eight times.

Kara Swisher 44:38 Oh, she's so good.

Scott Galloway 44:39 And, um, uh, Thomas Haden Church was in, in it, who I love.

Kara Swisher 44:43 She's in that Kim Kardashian thing that everybody hates but has gotten renewed again.

Scott Galloway 44:47 Uh, but-

Kara Swisher 44:48 All's fair.

Scott Galloway 44:48 ... anyways, it, I just thought it was a, I thought it was a really, um, wonderful movie, another-

Kara Swisher 44:54 Oh, I want to see it. It's on my list.

Scott Galloway 44:56 ... um, um, so my, my fail's gonna be more controversial, but-

Kara Swisher 45:01 Ooh?

Scott Galloway 45:01 ... I spent a lot of week, I've spent a lot of the weekend reading, you know, 'cause I'm a narcissist, reading my reviews for my book.

Kara Swisher 45:07 Mm-hmm. Oh, no. Don't read that.

Scott Galloway 45:08 And most have been positive. The harshest pushback I've received have been almost universally from therapists who say that one (sighs) one, you know, "Here's another man blaming women for men's problems." I'm like, "Okay, clearly this person hasn't read the book." Uh, but the basis is that men, before they can move to having a relationship or focusing on economic security, need to work on themselves. And I feel as if online, and generally as a good, like a salt in America, that therapy fixes everything. And I feel like it's sort of becoming the new take this supplement to solve all your problems. And just as I think sometimes supplements are a pipeline to being red-pilled, I think this therapy fixes everything is a bit of a supplement to focusing on, on certain virtue signaling as opposed to focusing on the material or economic wellbeing of Americans. And that is, um, I think over-prescription of therapy can pathologize normal life when, you know, every frustration, conflict, or sadness is framed as something that needs therapy. I think people can lose sight of the fact that some problems are situational, not psychological. Some difficulties require structural solutions, not introspection. And (sighs) market forces reward influencers right now who promote therapy for fucking everything. And also, (sighs) saying that you just need more therapy to fix this problem is a little bit like me saying, "You're frustrated by airport delays. Well, you should fly private." The majority of people do not have access to $200 an hour therapists.

Kara Swisher 46:51 They do not.

Scott Galloway 46:52 And what I would argue is that it's an answer, but it's not the answer.

Kara Swisher 46:56 Oh, I liked your defense. Although my mother-in-law's gonna come after you now about that.

Scott Galloway 46:59 Well, uh, therapists are hammers and everything they see is nails. And also, there's a femino-

Kara Swisher 47:04 I don't know if that's the case. I don't know if that's the case, but y- I c- I can see your point, is that-

Scott Galloway 47:06 I'll let you respond and, uh, let me get through this.

Kara Swisher 47:09 Okay.

Scott Galloway 47:09 Also, just so I can trigger a lot of people, the feminization of therapy means a lot of young men don't relate to these therapists.

Kara Swisher 47:20 Uh-oh.

Scott Galloway 47:21 (laughs) And that's not to say they can't help them, but if you're a young man who can't get a job and, and is having trouble finding or leveling up your own offering such that you can some find, t- at some point find mentors, friends, and mates, I'm not sure, I'm not sure sometimes that these young men are... Uh, not to say they can't benefit, but my point is it can help but it's not the only or always the best tool. Supportive friendships or community, lifestyle changes, addressing financial or structural barriers, developing skills, medical evaluation for underlying conditions, cultural or spiritual framework, self-education. And when therapy becomes ideology, my sense is all the nuance is disappearing. This, this sense that if you don't go to therapy r- you're refusing to grow, if you disagree with therapy you're avoiding healing, if therapy didn't work, it must be your fault. I, I feel like it's not mental health, it's becoming dogma. And I'm not anti-therapy, I'm anti-oversimplification in that it is a powerful tool for many people, but to be f- clear phlo- folks, logistically and financially, it is not a universal fix here. And the argument isn't therapy is bad, it's that therapy is being marketed like supplements, promised as the answer to everything.

Kara Swisher 48:39 Pills. Or pills.

Scott Galloway 48:40 Pushed by people who profit from the narrative and stripped of the nuance required to be truly-... truly useful. And also, I would argue that if you have real mental e- health issues or you have the money and the luxury of getting therapy, have at it. Hugely beneficial. My therapy bomb, a nuclear fucking detonation, fluoride in the water that would be as good as therapy for the vast majority of young men who supposedly all need to work on themselves before they can make money or have a relationship, would be higher wages and lower chronic stress, $25 an hour minimum wage, paid family leave-

Kara Swisher 49:22 I knew you were gonna say that.

Scott Galloway 49:23 ... universal childcare, eight million homes in 10 years, universal healthcare, reduced fear and earlier intervention, less, less student debt, less medical debt, childcare support, lower, lower parental burnout, student debt relief, longer term stress and higher wellbeing, a stronger safety net, fewer crises will escalate. Guess what? We can have more and more high blood pressure and diabetes medication, or maybe we get people working out and get them access to healthier food. Workplace standards, safer, healthier environments. Bottom line, you can't therapy your way out of material precarity. And what I see online is-

Kara Swisher 50:04 We-

Scott Galloway 50:04 ... everyone stating that mental health is the only answer.

Kara Swisher 50:08 I-

Scott Galloway 50:08 No, it's an answer.

Kara Swisher 50:10 I don't know if everyone does that, though. Let me connect-

Scott Galloway 50:12 Oh, my God, go online, Kara.

Kara Swisher 50:14 I will, I will, I will.

Scott Galloway 50:14 It's worse than supplements right now.

Kara Swisher 50:15 Listen, let me ask you a question, two questions, and then I will make an observation. Let me make the observation first. I've never been in therapy myself. Uh, I know, it shows. Um, and I don't, I, I have not thought I needed it. I went once for a couples therapy and I just wanted to get out of the-

Scott Galloway 50:28 Oh, my God, I, I'm the exact same thing.

Kara Swisher 50:31 I was like, "Let me off."

Scott Galloway 50:32 Just to clarify, we should get divorced.

Kara Swisher 50:34 Right, exactly. (laughs)

Scott Galloway 50:34 That's the only therapy I've ever been in.

Kara Swisher 50:35 Yeah, yeah. Well, they asked me-

Scott Galloway 50:36 Yep, you should get divorced.

Kara Swisher 50:37 The therapist asked, swear to God, I was like, "This is the last stop on the relationship train, that's my feeling."

Scott Galloway 50:41 100%. Oh, my God, I love you.

Kara Swisher 50:44 We love each other.

Scott Galloway 50:44 You're literally c- you're channeling my every thought.

Kara Swisher 50:46 And so, and the therapist goes, "Kara, how are you feeling?" And I said, "I feel like watching television." And they're like, and, and-

Scott Galloway 50:52 I'm excited to go sleep with strangers.

Kara Swisher 50:54 My ex was like, "What?" And, and I said-

Scott Galloway 50:54 I'm super excited to go sleep with strangers.

Kara Swisher 50:57 They s- and my ex was like, "That's not a feeling." I go, "No, it is. It is. I feel good when I watch television. I'm very happy. I feel like doing that." And the therapist was like, "You're fine. You can go." (laughs) And it was, it was... I don't... I agree with you. I don't... Uh, my, both, by the way, both my in-laws are, but one is a psychiatrist and w- the other is a psychologist. Yeah, a psychologist. And, um, they're wonderful, and I think they do believe in therapy and, and its uses and everything else. I think that you're right, that it has to be a g- a well-rounded thing, and not everyone avails himself to therapy in the ways that are possible, um, and that you don't necessarily, like, I do think, y- you know, like, one of my kids' mental health is better 'cause he works out all the time. I think it helps him mentally. I can see it. You know what I mean? He feels better about himself. He, especially, he eats better. He's been eating better. And, um, he wasn't depressed, but he's a better person for it. Like, I don't know what else to s- it wasn't like he was, like, dealing with all kinds of trauma. But I, I do see improvements. Or my other son, I know it sounds crazy, loves to drive a car, and he loves driving, and it f- it's mentally healthy for him to... He, like, goes on road trips, and it's like he takes a minute. Like, there's other ways to therap- I go to the hardware store. I love a hardware store. Like, I feel better. Like, I know it sounds crazy, but I do. Or clean or something like that. But I see your point. I do, I do see... One of the things I push back on your behalf, and then, uh, and then, uh, just tell me this is, everyone's like, "Oh, he does it. He's not a therapist." I said, "He's not saying that in this thing. He's not. He's not." Like, like, you haven't read it, because he's not t- putting himself, like, there are a lot of man writers that see themselves as therapists. You know that, right? There's that kind of like, "Here's the answer." I don't think you're doing that. So I don't think it's fair. That's, that would be my, that would be my observation.

Scott Galloway 52:40 What it would... I'm, w- uh, look, I think economic policy, I think we need... I think the greatest mental health, the greatest source that gets to the same or, or a similar place of therapy would be mental health policy.

Kara Swisher 52:57 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 52:58 When people have stable housing, healthcare, reasonable work hours, predictable pay, childcare, and a social safety net-

Kara Swisher 53:05 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 53:05 ... their mental health improves to the point where they may not need to speak to a $200 an hour therapist.

Kara Swisher 53:11 Or if they can, if they're available. That's why there's so many online therapists. I had dinner with the governor of Massachusetts. We were talking a little bit about, like, homelessness and mental health issues. They're so linked. They're so-

Scott Galloway 53:21 Oh. (laughs)

Kara Swisher 53:22 They're, they're so deeply linked.

Scott Galloway 53:22 Look, if, if, if you are in a position to afford mental health and it's accessible, if you are clearly struggling with mental health issues, absolutely it is hugely important.

Kara Swisher 53:34 Housing.

Scott Galloway 53:34 I'm, I'm in favor of it. But, uh, I believe this. If we had... If we could give young people structural foundation for more economic opportunity, and the chance to meet people and have more stronger relationships, I think the need for therapy would be substantially reduced. I want people in the gym before they'd get, need statins or diabetes medication.

Kara Swisher 54:02 Well, statins is important. (laughs) Statins-

Scott Galloway 54:06 What?

Kara Swisher 54:06 I guess. Yeah. Some things are just genetic though, right? I mean, pre-

Scott Galloway 54:09 Well, no-

Kara Swisher 54:09 ... specifically.

Scott Galloway 54:09 Uh, and if you inherit... If you're bipolar and you have mental health issues in your family, by all means-

Kara Swisher 54:15 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 54:15 ... help those people find therapists-

Kara Swisher 54:17 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 54:18 ... and psychiatrists. But it, what I am seeing online is a, and most of these people, by the way, are no longer practicing. They're just on TikTok. (laughs)

Kara Swisher 54:26 Oh.

Scott Galloway 54:26 And I find it's like-

Kara Swisher 54:28 Oh, I know which one you're talking about, the one that, that, the one that the guy talking about, yeah, I think Chelsea Handler said it too, or one, someone did.

Scott Galloway 54:35 I- i- but if you resa- if you look at these folks' background, it's like, all right, the algorithms support dogma over mental health policy.

Kara Swisher 54:44 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 54:44 And they wanna shame people that aren't-Well, well, these people, these men shouldn't even be thinking... Y- you're, you're sending them down the wrong path. They need to-

Kara Swisher 54:53 Yeah, I was-

Scott Galloway 54:53 ... work on themselves first.

Kara Swisher 54:54 I thought that was unfair.

Scott Galloway 54:54 And I'm like, "You know what?"

Kara Swisher 54:55 Go on.

Scott Galloway 54:55 "I bet if this kid got a good job and had a better friend network, that would solve a lot of this."

Kara Swisher 55:01 No. I think that, that piece, that, uh, as, as well meaning as it was, it was ridi- it wasn't what had happened. Anyway, uh, I like that, I like that. They, we're gonna get a lot of pushback, but that's okay.

Scott Galloway 55:10 That's fine.

Kara Swisher 55:11 That's fine. But both of us-

Scott Galloway 55:11 You know what I've learned? If you-

Kara Swisher 55:12 But both of us have the same-

Scott Galloway 55:13 ... if you're getting-

Kara Swisher 55:13 ... therapeutic situation

Guest 55:15 Couples.

Scott Galloway 55:15 ... it's like World War II. When bombers' targeting sights used to malfunction-

Kara Swisher 55:20 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 55:20 ... the pilots used to say, "Drop your bombs when we're getting the most flak, 'cause that means we're over the target."

Kara Swisher 55:25 Oh. All right. Okay. We're gonna get therapy-

Scott Galloway 55:28 There's the old man coming out.

Kara Swisher 55:29 ... on our ass. Anyway, uh, uh, that was r- that was a good one. I like it. I like it. And I'm sure going to hear from my in-laws, um, anyway, we want... Who are big listeners, by the way, especially my mother-in-law, uh, Ann. Um, anyway, we want to hear from you. Send us your questions about business, tech, or whatever's on your mind. Go to nymag.com/pivot to submit a question for the show, or call 8-555-1-PIVOT. We have a special listener mail show coming up, so please get those questions in. We love to answer your questions. Um, elsewhere in the Kara and Scott universe, on the latest episode of On With Kara Swisher, I'm talking, uh, to comedian Tig Notaro. Let's listen to a clip. Do you, do you feel a shift in comedy? I mean, there is the whole bro comedy circuit, of course.

Guest 56:10 Yeah. I feel a massive shift, whether it is the bro comedy, very conservative comedy. You know, when I first started almost 30 years ago, it was very unusual to find a conservative, out conservative comedian. People would all kind of reference Dennis Miller. Um, yeah. I feel the shift.

Kara Swisher 56:32 Anyway, very interesting interview. Uh, she's just done a really fascinating documentary about her friend.

Scott Galloway 56:36 She's having a moment though. She's doing really well, right?

Kara Swisher 56:38 She is. She's amazing. She was on The Morning Show. She's on this great Handsome podcast that she does.

Scott Galloway 56:44 Mm-hmm.

Kara Swisher 56:45 Um, and she did this documentary that, uh, is od- it's about the death, the cancer death of a spoken word lesbian, uh, or not lesbian, non-binary poet, and it's riveting. Like, uh, I, I was like, "Huh, I don't, I don't know." But it was beautiful. She's done this, she executive produced, it's really quite good. Um, anyway, she's, she's also a lovely person, let me just say. And I love interviewing, as you know, comics and comedians-

Scott Galloway 57:08 Mm-hmm.

Kara Swisher 57:08 ... 'cause I really enjoy it. I'm gonna do Michelle Wolf soon, just for you.

Scott Galloway 57:12 Oh, my God.

Kara Swisher 57:13 Oh, my God, I know.

Scott Galloway 57:14 My hero.

Kara Swisher 57:15 I know. She just did a hysterical thing about the relationship between the two Wicked stars (laughs) that will make you laugh. She was like-

Scott Galloway 57:22 Oh, I, I thought of you when I saw those two.

Kara Swisher 57:24 Yeah. I know.

Scott Galloway 57:25 Oh, my God.

Kara Swisher 57:26 It's going a little bit over the top.

Scott Galloway 57:27 Oh, my God.

Kara Swisher 57:28 But Michelle-

Scott Galloway 57:28 A little bit?

Kara Swisher 57:28 I'm gonna send you the Michelle Wolf take on it-

Scott Galloway 57:30 A little bit?

Kara Swisher 57:31 ... which is, she says, "I usually don't like to comment on people's, but what the hell?" Like, and she's, she did a great... I'll send it to you. Anyway, I love Michelle Wolf. Um, okay, that's the show. Thanks for listening to Pivot, and be sure to like and subscribe to our YouTube channel. We'll be back on Friday. Scott, read us out.

Scott Galloway 57:48 Today's show was produced by Lara Nehm and Zoe Marcus, Taylor Griffin and Brandon McFarlane. Ernie Detod engineered this episode. Jim Mc Elwaine edited the video. Thanks also to Drew Brosnan, Miss Averie Danchelon, and Kate Gallagher. Yashak Kurwa is Vox Media's executive producer of podcasts. Make sure to follow Pivot on your favorite podcast platform. Thanks for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media. You can subscribe to the magazine at nymag.com/pod. We'll be back later this week for another breakdown of all things tech and business.