Elon Musk Torches Advertisers in DealBook Summit Interview

1. 0:00 – 1:14

   Cold open: DealBook awkwardness and the “Jonathan/Andrew” mix-up

   1. KSKara Swisher0:00

      Hi, everyone. This is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Kara Swisher.

   2. SGScott Galloway0:05

      And tell me you're abusing ketamine without telling me you're abusing ketamine, Kara.

   3. KSKara Swisher0:10

      I am only bereft that Jonathan had to be there to witness that, Jonathan Ross Sorkin. Uh, did you see that part? Our friend, our Canadian, he called our Canadian friend Jonathan, his na... And Andrew was like, "I'm Andrew."

   4. SGScott Galloway0:23

      Oh my God, I did see that.

   5. KSKara Swisher0:24

      He said, "You're my good friend, Jonathan," and I was thinking, "Why did he think Jonathan?" Is it the only sort of Jewish-sounding name he could think of? I, I don't even know what he was doing there.

   6. SGScott Galloway0:34

      Well, if this, if that whole, um, dialogue cemented or proved anything, it is that, in fact, Andrew Ross Sorkin is Canadian. One, he was on stage the entire time unarmed.

   7. KSKara Swisher0:49

      We can talk about it more in a minute, but go ahead. Th- ..........................

   8. SGScott Galloway0:50

      He was on stage the entire time, both unarmed and had health insurance. Canadian.

   9. KSKara Swisher0:55

      Yeah. Mm-hmm.

   10. SGScott Galloway0:56

       And y- you know how you get a Canadian to apologize?

   11. KSKara Swisher1:00

       How?

   12. SGScott Galloway1:00

       You step on his foot. And-

   13. KSKara Swisher1:02

       (laughs)

   14. SGScott Galloway1:03

       ... uh, that has some relevance here.

   15. KSKara Swisher1:05

       Yeah, yeah, which we'll get to.

   16. SGScott Galloway1:07

       Andrew felt bad. And it was like A- the way... Andrew felt, I don't know if he felt bad for the audience.

2. 1:14 – 1:47

   Setting the scene: Musk’s DealBook interview hits antisemitism, Biden grievances, and sci‑fi tangents

   1. KSKara Swisher1:14

      He didn't know what to say. We're gonna go right to our first story, as we were talking about. Elon Musk gave quite a performance at the New York Times DealBook Summit on Wednesday, which was chockful of really good interviews. In a lengthy conversation with Jonathan Ross Sorkin, also known as Andrew, Elon addressed numerous topics, uh, ranging from his antisemitic comments to his grudge against Biden, and weighed in on OpenAI, aliens, monkeys, and more. And something about Earth? I don't quite understand what that was about. And while he apologized for that antisemitic tweet, it was a comment directed at X's advertisers that caused the most chaos. Let's listen.

3. 1:47 – 2:10

   The viral moment: Musk tells advertisers ‘go fuck yourself’ (and calls out Bob Iger)

   1. EMElon Musk1:47

      You don't want them to advertise? No. What do you mean? I- i- if s- if somebody's gonna try to blackmail me with advertising, blackmail me with money, go fuck yourself. (laughs) But... Go fuck yourself.

   2. NANarrator2:05

      (laughs)

   3. EMElon Musk2:06

      Is that clear? I hope it is. Hey, Bob.

4. 2:10 – 3:12

   Kara’s read: ‘Tell it to Earth’ and other DealBook highlights

   1. KSKara Swisher2:10

      And when pressed on what it would mean for his company, this is what he said. "Tell it to Earth." Uh, you know, it... You have to watch this in whole 'cause it's, the entire thing is bizarre, not just this, um, his diatribe against, uh, uh, not being invited to a Biden comm tab. Um, everything was so strange. "Tell it to Earth." Wh- what did you think as you watched this? Uh, the shout-out to, was to Bob Iger, by the way, who earlier in the, who was in the audience, who earlier in the day asked about, when asked about Elon and advertising on X said that the association was not necessarily a positive one. Let me have some other highlights, if we wanna call them that. Elon's issues with Biden go back to Tesla getting excluded from this White House event on electric vehicles. He, shortly after Biden took office, he said it wasn't fair. Um, he's- he's obviously hurting from it. Um, he said, "I have done more for the environment than any other person on Earth" when talking about electric vehicle sales. Nikki Haley, uh, was dismissed as pro-censorship candidate. Uh, more on her later. OpenAI should be renamed Super Closed Source for Maximum Profit AI, ha ha. Scott, please go ahead.

5. 3:12 – 3:55

   Scott’s reaction: hard to watch—and a possible breakdown narrative

   1. SGScott Galloway3:12

      I was on a plane watching it, uh, last night. I came home from Miami, and I found it difficult to watch. Um, you know, I- I think the most generous thing you could say is it was an intense, uh, bout of jet lag, but there's something going on here. And (laughs) I of course went to ChatGPT and I typed in, "What are the symptoms of a narcissist having a breakdown?" And it came back with intense rage and anger, blame shifting-

   2. KSKara Swisher3:40

      Yeah. Yeah.

   3. SGScott Galloway3:40

      ... emotional dysregulation-

   4. KSKara Swisher3:42

      Mm-hmm.

   5. SGScott Galloway3:42

      ... paranoia-

   6. KSKara Swisher3:43

      Mm-hmm.

   7. SGScott Galloway3:43

      ... depression, anxiety-

   8. KSKara Swisher3:45

      Right.

   9. SGScott Galloway3:45

      ... manipulative behaviors, isolation, self-destructive behaviors, increased sensitivity to criticism, and breakdown of relationships. I mean, his statements were so ridiculous, Kara.

   10. KSKara Swisher3:55

       Yeah.

6. 3:55 – 4:50

   Business logic clash: are non-advertisers really ‘blackmailing’ X?

   1. SGScott Galloway3:55

      Do you realize that of 497 of the Fortune 500, uh, companies in the United States are clearly blackmailing us 'cause they refuse-

   2. KSKara Swisher4:04

      Yeah.

   3. SGScott Galloway4:04

      ... to advertise on our platform?

   4. KSKara Swisher4:06

      Yeah. I know.

   5. SGScott Galloway4:07

      And then to-

   6. KSKara Swisher4:08

      Bob...

   7. SGScott Galloway4:08

      ... to go after Disney, and i- i- it's like, i- it just, the whole thing was just... And to be that, uh, and to be that profane and that aggressive and then to somehow threaten advertisers that the world will hold you accountable if Twitter goes down. And then talking about, I thought the most disturbing part as someone who raises boys, him talking about as a 13-year-old just the incredible hardship and dysfunction he faced. His answer or his response to this incredible abuse, being the son of a model and a emerald miner, was, uh, the decision that, to save humanity by making us an interplanetary species. I mean, he's literally... He's just like kinda fucking lost his shit. (laughs)

7. 4:50 – 6:15

   Kara on optics and leadership: exhaustion, costume vibes, and Yaccarino’s enabling post

   1. KSKara Swisher4:50

      You know, again, his stans literally were like, "This was great. He d- told it like it was. This is..." And then let me just say, uh, Linda Yaccarino, well, i- i- it's- it's, it's really sad. It's sad. It's sad. I don't feel sorry for him, but it's sad to watch. Um, he thinks he's great. His clothes were strange, like he was a, he was dressed as a fighter pilot from World War II, I guess?

   2. SGScott Galloway5:14

      Yeah, I did notice that.

   3. KSKara Swisher5:15

      I don't really know. Um, which is fine. He can wear whatever he wants. But it just, the whole, the whole visual was weird. He looked exhausted. He looked unshaven. Um, you know, I thought Linda Yaccarino did the worst job of any CEO in recent memory, but he has managed to top it. He bested her. Um, two things. Linda, Linda Yaccarino was in the audience. She then, I thought, uh, she must have been horrified. But instead, she put up a lengthy post on X afterwards. I'm not gonna read it in full 'cause it was such f- it was so full of nonsense, um, and- and enabling. "When it comes to advertising, X is standing at a unique and amazing intersection of free speech and Main Street." Uh, uh, block that fucking metaphor, but okay. I think she just got run over by, by, you know, a truck, essentially, driven by Elon Musk. Um, one was, how do you think she's feeling today at that intersection? Um, she is, she is really a piece of work, I gotta say, 'cause, uh, she's not... She seems nuts, but she-... is, is obviously something else.

8. 6:15 – 7:28

   Scott’s take on Yaccarino: great salesperson, impossible job, and a powerless CEO

   1. SGScott Galloway6:15

      My understanding of Linda is that she was outstanding at her job. She was a fantastic head of sales.

   2. KSKara Swisher6:20

      Well, I'll get to that.

   3. SGScott Galloway6:22

      And so you put someone as a head of sales for a traditional, uh, company with a lot of products, a lot of outstanding assets to sell, and then you show up and you're f- you're fighting a fire with a squirt gun. And then you find out that the person who you're fighting the fighting for keeps putting gasoline in your squirt gun.

   4. KSKara Swisher6:40

      She doesn't have to go this far. She can leave. She cannot put out quotes like this. This was shocking to me.

   5. SGScott Galloway6:46

      You gotta... I- I can't decide whether she's, she's part of the problem. I, there's been very few people who have, who have gone from zero to global awareness and then in, in almost as fast a, a time, a period, have absolutely destroyed their reputation. Now, you could argue in this day and age it's just all about awareness, and I think she'll be able to get another job, but it just... uh, she just looks, she looks totally flaccid in the face of a c- a, a owner who doesn't respect anything about her role as CEO. She's not a, she's not a CEO. And all the sh- again, the analogy is she's the, the circus clown following this elephant around, scooping up his shit all the time.

9. 7:28 – 8:29

   Outside reporting: Hollywood Reporter profile and ‘ego/hubris’ critiques

   1. KSKara Swisher7:28

      Yeah. Yeah. It's really... uh, you know, she was also the subject of a not very flattering profile in The Hollywood Reporter by Kim Masters w- Wednesday where the writer, uh, Kim Masters, spoke with unnamed former NBC colleagues. The article quotes someone who said, "Linda let her ego get the best of her. She thought she could control them. It was a level of ego and h- hubris uh, you rarely see." Um, I thought it was a pretty fair article. Others thought it was, you know, it was all unnamed sources, but it was accurate. It was... I know her. That's... she was tough. She's a tough and somewhat of a chaotic manager, not that I care. Lots of bad people don't manage as well. But she definitely is way in, way over her skis but then continues to double down. That, that's the tragedy here is this sort of like full-scale embracing of this lunatic behavior by Elon. Um, why would any advertiser stay with X at this point? What... you know, he's done this before. Remember when he first got to the company, he, he insulted advertisers at that advert- first advertising meeting? "Don't advertise with us." And he just hates anyone in control of his destiny, I guess, or something.

10. 8:29 – 9:10

    Why big advertisers won’t return: brand safety, antisemitism, and better options elsewhere

    1. SGScott Galloway8:29

       The answer is no big advertiser's going to. Um, or no, or no advertiser's that wor- is worried about their reputation. I mean, I, I found his comments... everyone wants to peer, try and peer into his heart to really understand if he's an antisemite. In my view is you, if you say and do anti-Semitic things, then boom, you're an antisemite. And so big companies that are correctly more sensitive to this sort of scrutiny and criticism, as they should be, are gonna stay away from this thing. 'Cause here's the thing, there are about a billion other options to spend your money in term- There's no shortage. There are fewer ad dollars than there are platforms to spend those dollars on.

    2. KSKara Swisher9:05

       And Twitter's not particularly effective, as many people are pointing out. Like why, why take the risk?

11. 9:10 – 11:33

    The remaining ad market: smaller advertisers, weird creatives, and a possible ROI bump

    1. SGScott Galloway9:10

       It's never been known as, ad being a great product in terms of ROI. The people or the, the firms that will continue to advertise will, because the outflow of advertising'll be so dramatic, logically speaking, the ROI on the ad dollars that remain should go up because there'll be fewer of them. So if you're trying to sell an ear cleaning product, I wouldn't be surprised, and I hate to say this, I wouldn't be surprised if the ROI on your ad dollars on Twitter that are gonna be competing with much fewer dollars for eyeballs will actually go up. So they'll probably see a bit of a bump, uh, the smaller advertisers, in terms of ROI, because there'll just be so few dollars chasing what is still a fairly large audience.

    2. KSKara Swisher9:55

       The ads have gotten really scary. (laughs) They've gotten really weird. Ear cleaning product is one of them that, that... and that weird glue? I know you haven't been on it, but there's a weird hand glue. I don't really know what it is. Um, uh, you know, what's... a- h- how, how is this gonna end? How is Earth... what is Earth gonna do? 'Cause they... you know, from a business point of view, X was... or last week, the New York Times reported that X was in danger of losing $75 million earlier this week in advertising before the interview. What... you're in a room with marketers right now who are still on the platform. What is being said?

    3. SGScott Galloway10:28

       Here's my boast of narcissism. I've worked with 27 of the 100 CMOs of the Fortune 100 globally. None of them have anything to do with this platform right now. None of them. It's all, "Let me get this. The product's not that great. You might be accused of enabling an antisemite. Oh, and if you decide to stop advertising, he's gonna say you're blackmailing him and, and start threatening revenge against you." I mean, (laughs) okay, what is the upside here? Let's look at the upside versus the down. There, there are a few things a CMO can be fired for, kind of unceremoniously. If you were to go on Twitter and spend some money and then it were to blow up in your face, say your Pepsi... your, you know, Diet Pepsi ad ends up next to a swastika, and then a really decent question would be like, "You saw this shit happening and you made the conscious decision to put us at risk like this?" So no, nobody you or me know, knows is gonna be advertising on this platform.

    4. KSKara Swisher11:20

       Yeah. It's a real tr- it is a traffic accident. Uh, speaking of fir- you know, fir- the f- the corner of free speech and main. Um, I don't know e- this is just... it was so bizarre. I was in New York. I didn't go.

12. 11:33 – 12:37

    Personal proximity and the ‘Earth immune response’: the world pushes back on concentrated power

    1. SGScott Galloway11:33

       You used to be friends with him. Do you know anyone that knows him?

    2. KSKara Swisher11:36

       I wasn't friends w- he was so, it was so funny. He was referring to Andrew as a friend, Jonathan as a friend. Jonathan's not his friend either. Um, he thinks anyone who's nice to him is his friend. It's really sad, actually. Um, J- A- Andrew and I are just reporters. Uh, I liked him. I certainly thought he was interesting. Um, no, I don't... uh, everyone just shakes their head. Everyone just shakes their head.

    3. SGScott Galloway11:58

       But I, I do think on a, on a meta level, I do think the world is having a healthy immune response to Elon Musk.

    4. KSKara Swisher12:04

       Yeah. The audience certainly did. You could hear it. They were like, "Heh heh heh heh heh."

    5. SGScott Galloway12:08

       But we don't have a president of the world. We don't have one company that controls the world. We have several that are marching towards that, but generally speaking, over time, the ecosystem doesn't like an invasive species and it starts to fight back against it.

    6. KSKara Swisher12:22

       Yeah.

    7. SGScott Galloway12:22

       And when one person aggregates this much power, I think the world does have a healthy-

    8. KSKara Swisher12:27

       Earth. It's called Earth.

    9. SGScott Galloway12:28

       Yeah, it does have a healthy immune gag reflex, and I feel like we're starting to really choke on this guy.

Episode duration: 12:38