PivotHillary Clinton: This is the Biggest Story That No One is Paying Attention To | Pivot
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
65 min read · 12,808 words- 0:00 – 5:35
Intro
- KSKara Swisher
No one's putting Hillary in the corner.
- HCHillary Clinton
Not me. Nope. [laughs]
- KSKara Swisher
No way. [upbeat music] Hi, everyone, this is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Kara Swisher, and once again, it's time for...
- HCHillary Clinton
Scott-Free August. [horn blaring]
- KSKara Swisher
That's right, Scott-Free August has begun, and in honor of that [laughs] , in honor of that, I have a very special guest. As our first guest co-host, I brought in Scott Galloway's hero, former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton. Welcome, Madam Secretary.
- HCHillary Clinton
Oh, it's great to be here. I didn't know this was officially Scott-Free August. That's, that's-
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah, you're the kickoff.
- HCHillary Clinton
Yeah. I'm excited. Wherever you are, Scott, have a great August.
- KSKara Swisher
We are very excited to have you here. You're one of my heroes, too, and we've had some good times recently to chit-chat, and we're doing stuff. We're talking about things, and you just went to the Liberty game. How did that go?
- HCHillary Clinton
Oh, my God. Well, you know because you've been there. It is the most exciting and fun experience. I mean, honestly, the way that arena, you know, Barclay, uh, in Brooklyn lights up with the Liberty, and of course, Ellie the Elephant, who is naughty and fun.
- KSKara Swisher
Did you mind the naughtiness? No.
- HCHillary Clinton
Well, not at all, no.
- KSKara Swisher
Not at all.
- HCHillary Clinton
I mean, she was shaking her tail at me the whole time. I loved it.
- KSKara Swisher
Uh.
- HCHillary Clinton
And they won.
- KSKara Swisher
The crowd loved you, by the way, let me just say.
- HCHillary Clinton
Oh, well, I love the crowd. I mean, this-
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah
- HCHillary Clinton
... you know, going to, uh, a Liberty game in the summer in New York, uh, people are in a good mood. They're happy. They're, you know... They, they cheered literally everything. I mean, if the referee walked, you know, onto the court, they cheered. They were just in such a good mood.
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah, absolutely.
- HCHillary Clinton
I would like to bottle that and, uh, make sure that it's available year-round. I mean, I, I would encourage anybody... Uh, you know, my husband, uh, watches all, you know, watches both men's and women's basketball, and I watch some of it as well, but there is just a feeling, and my friends told me this, you told me this-
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah, I did. Yeah
- HCHillary Clinton
... uh, and others told me.
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah.
- HCHillary Clinton
Just go to a game. You will have a-
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah
- HCHillary Clinton
... superb experience. Um, I've been to women's soccer's games. I, uh, but being in an arena with a-
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah
- HCHillary Clinton
... crowd that is so enthusiastic, and-
- 5:35 – 9:17
Trump’s Oval Office Makeover
- KSKara Swisher
the East Wing? Did you want a ballroom ever?
- HCHillary Clinton
Um, I never really thought about it. You know, what we did-
- KSKara Swisher
[laughs]
- HCHillary Clinton
... and it was a, it was a temporary solution. Everybody did it. If you had too many guests coming, it would be they're either outside or you'd put up a tent. Um, now, I, I'm not against the idea of a ballroom. I'm against this ballroom. I'm against the process that, well, the fact, the fact there was no process, that created this You know, carbuncle on the side of, uh, the White House-
- KSKara Swisher
Carbuncle
- HCHillary Clinton
... which I think is so, uh, unfortunate looking. Um, so I don't... And the next president's gonna have a big decision.
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah.
- HCHillary Clinton
What do you do-
- KSKara Swisher
What would you do?
- HCHillary Clinton
... with a half-finished, you know, ballroom?
- KSKara Swisher
What would you do? What would you do? That was so bad. [laughs] Would you tear it down?
- HCHillary Clinton
You know, I don't know. I mean, the idea of tearing it down is... And we don't know really what's going on underneath it. You know, under the, you know, several floors down under the White House, there are, um, you know, security, um-
- KSKara Swisher
Secret rooms, I assume
- HCHillary Clinton
... infrastructures. There are-
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah
- HCHillary Clinton
... you know, safe rooms. I- if, if you remember after 9/11, there's a picture of Condi Rice and Dick Cheney in a room, a very, you know, kind of crowded-looking room. That is under the White House. So I don't know what they're doing down there, so you'd have to figure that out, too. Um, but I think there'll have to be some, uh... You'll probably have to take down the arch, uh, which he is determined to put up, which I think is just, just a terrible d- idea. I think we'll have to worry about the Reflecting Pool because it's not gonna be fixed by the time he leaves, assuming he leaves. So there's gonna be a long list. I'm making a list-
- KSKara Swisher
Oh, are you making a list?
- HCHillary Clinton
... for the next Congress.
- KSKara Swisher
Are you gonna de-gold the horses, those horses?
- HCHillary Clinton
De-gold the horses, take down the-
- KSKara Swisher
I mean, have you seen them up close?
- HCHillary Clinton
... stick-on gold. Yeah, I saw-
- KSKara Swisher
It's crazy
- HCHillary Clinton
... I saw a picture. I saw a picture.
- KSKara Swisher
Feels like Saddam Hussein. I mean, seriously.
- HCHillary Clinton
It is like... You know what? That's a very... Uh, you know, when I was in Baghdad after, uh, the fall of, uh, uh, Saddam Hussein, I had meetings. I was then a senator. I had meetings in some of his palaces, and they were quite reminiscent of, uh, what we are seeing in our own White House. I- it's just insane.
- KSKara Swisher
Is that hard for you to watch?
- HCHillary Clinton
It's, it's sad.
- KSKara Swisher
Or just you're like, "I'll take down the gold"?
- HCHillary Clinton
You know what? It's sad to me. It's sad that it's so tackied up, and it is ref- it's a reflection of, you know, his narcissistic personality and his need to-
- 9:17 – 18:53
Michigan Primary
- KSKara Swisher
move to the Democrats as we tape. Progressive candidate Abdul El-Sayed has narrowly won Michigan's Democratic Senate primary, defeating moderate, uh, Representative Haley Stevens in one of the party's most-watched races. The race has been widely viewed as a test of Democratic Party's direction, pitting the progressives against the establishment. Representative Haley Stevens aside spent over $64 million in ads in the race, while El-Sayed spent 7.1 million. El-Sayed, who is backed by Bernie Sanders and AOC, will face Republican Mike Rogers in the general election that could help determine the control of the Senate. T- how much should Democrats read into these results?
- HCHillary Clinton
Well, I, I think you have to look at both the candidates and, uh, the messages and the, um, support that each had. I know Haley. She was a terrific member of Congress. She was a really effective member of Obama's, uh, uh, auto, uh, recovery task force. Um, she's a doer. She's a doer, but she's not a modern politician. I mean, she is not somebody who has mastered, uh, the art of, uh, video and performance online, and I think part of the lesson is that's what people are looking for, or at least half the people, 'cause as you said, it was absolutely skin-tight. The, the election wasn't even called until just recently this morning. And so I, I think we're living in an era where because of people's, you know, attention spans and their obsession with their screens, they're looking for a candidate, regardless of almost where that candidate might stand or their positioning, um, but who first and foremost they can relate to through the screen. How does that person come across? And I'm just hoping that the people who come across well on the screen are also people who can produce results because, uh, that's not always the same thing, but that's what the evolution of, you know, political contests now is, uh, pointing us towards.
- KSKara Swisher
Is it more than just the screen? 'Cause I mean, look, being good at a podcast isn't gonna get you elected, right? Exactly. You have to have that skill, as you had to have various skills over the years. But there's this whole idea that there's this sort of struggle within the Democratic Party, and I think of my own son who lives in Michigan. He just liked what he had to say. There... And there's also a throw the bums out thing. I think he was impacted by the money. He was sort of like, "What's with that?" And I... And he, he wanted to be able to articulate it without being like, "I don't like APAC/Elon/anybody coming in." And he wanted to be able to articulate that without being called anti-Semitic or whatever it happens to be. He just was...
- HCHillary Clinton
Well, that, that, that was a, that was gonna be my, my second point. I think that the message was very powerful, and You know, people are fed up. They wanna see results. They wanna see government working for them. That's-- those who voted for Trump, that's what they thought they were getting. And so I, I, I do think that the message, uh, which is, you know, very clear, you know, Medicare for all, get money out of politics, uh, and the fact that she was an incumbent, um, all of that worked to, uh, the advantage, uh, of, uh, El-Sayed. So I think it was a, it was a, a, a confluence of his skills, uh, his, his, uh, presentation skills, which I think are pretty obvious. Uh, not an incumbent. He also had pretty broad name recognition 'cause he had run against Gretchen Whitmer. He wasn't totally new to the, uh, to the state or to the voters. Uh, and his, his message was, uh, a very clear, simple, straightforward, you know, Medicare for all, get money out of politics. Um, and also, you know, I, uh, I think there was, you know, some questioning on the part of people like, "Really? I, I just wanna try something different. I, I'm just not happy with where we are."
- KSKara Swisher
Where we are. Do you-- What would you do? You-- She's-- I'm not asking you for advice, but what should Democrats do about this sort of... And the right is really taking advantage over this, um, it's the progressive left, um, communists. Those are-
- HCHillary Clinton
Mm
- KSKara Swisher
... powerful words, but-
- HCHillary Clinton
Yeah
- KSKara Swisher
... h-what-- how do you me- To me, you just say, "We have a lot of people."
- HCHillary Clinton
Yeah.
- KSKara Swisher
"We have a lot of different people in different states." What's the d-
- HCHillary Clinton
Right
- KSKara Swisher
... Very different from Mickey Sherrill, very different from Amy Klobuchar, very different from, you know, that kind of thing, or Gretchen-
- HCHillary Clinton
Right
- KSKara Swisher
... Whitmer even. Do you think it is a wake-up call or, or just a, like, "We're-- we evolve and we change," kinda thing?
- HCHillary Clinton
Yeah. No, look, I think there's no doubt that, you know, the Republican Party is the Trump cult and the Democratic Party is a bigger tent. You know, we do have, uh, a broad cross-section, uh, of people, what they believe, what their experiences are. I think that's an advantage, um, but we also have to win general elections. And so how we pivot and get behind the candidate in Michigan, uh, so that, uh, we can beat, uh, you know, the Republican candidate, Mike Rogers, that's gonna, uh, that's gonna require a lot of outreach and a lot of, uh, willingness on the part of the, you know, the winning candidate and his supporters to know that they need the people that they, uh, were vilifying online, in person. I mean, the kinda things that were said about Haley, her supporters, you know, there were a lot of really nasty personal attacks.
- KSKara Swisher
Which you're familiar with. You're fa- I mean, that's some- nothing new.
- HCHillary Clinton
I am familiar with it. And, and, you know, one thing that we haven't yet seen, uh, enough of is that when the progressives, the left, whatever we wanna call, you know, candidates, um, on that side of the, uh, the Democratic Party, when they lose, they often don't support the, uh, candidate that has been nominated. You know, there was a lot of reluctance to support Kamala Harris. There was a lot of reluctance to support me when I got the nomination. So it can't be a one-way street. You know, if we're gonna win-- if we're gonna have a, a, a fair election as there was in Michigan, and somebody comes out ahead, a little bit ahead, but needs to get a huge percentage of the voters that voted for Haley, they're gonna have to be willing to, you know, get in, uh, get into a conversation that brings those people over.
- KSKara Swisher
Back over.
- HCHillary Clinton
You're not gonna-
- KSKara Swisher
Right. Yeah
- HCHillary Clinton
... you're not gonna convince Republican voters in Michigan. Y-And the, and the real fight will be how, how do we make sure that people who voted for Haley feel comfortable voting for, uh, uh, Abdul El-Sayed, and how do we get independents to feel comfortable? And you can see that it's not just about Michigan, but the Republican messaging is communist, socialist. It's gonna be a very, uh, effective attack. And so people on the left have to be prepared to, to answer that and to be effective at answering it.
- KSKara Swisher
Do you think communist is an effective attack in 2026?
- HCHillary Clinton
Well, all I know is that's the attack that Trump is leading with, and I assume they've tested it, and I assume [chuckles] that they have reason to believe that it's effective, or they wouldn't be beating the drum on it, 'cause now it's not just him. Vance has done it. Others are doing it. They are trying to, you know, bring back scare tactics, uh, about our candidates. And, you know, it didn't work in New York. Um, Mamdani was elected, and there was a lot of money spent against him. When you have an effective, uh, candidate on the left, it still is gonna be a close race on our side. So then how do these candidates who win, whether they're the, you know, candidate that's the more conventional, so-called moderate candidate, although really moderate compared to what? Not compared to Republicans. They're, you know, very much, uh, on the, you know, social justice, uh, you know, redistribution side of the ledger. But if they are going to have to, uh, pivot to support the candidate on the progressive left side, they're gonna need to feel they're welcome. They're gonna need to feel that, you know... Yeah, m- a lot of people like your son voted for him. They liked the message, but other people voted on different grounds. I mean, you know, Israel played a role in this election, as we know. AIPAC played a role, as we know. So there's gonna have to be, um, uh, you know, on both sides, a, an understanding, look, we gotta work together. We're not gonna beat Republicans by being divided.
- KSKara Swisher
What's the message against Rogers?
- HCHillary Clinton
That he's a, you know, he's a Trump candidate, that he's gonna-
- KSKara Swisher
[chuckles]
- HCHillary Clinton
... show up and he's gonna, you know, vote for the Republican agenda. He's gonna vote for Trump, and how well has that worked for you? I mean-
- KSKara Swisher
Sure
- HCHillary Clinton
... even the people in Michigan who voted for Trump, is that what they voted for? Did they vote for-
- 18:53 – 26:55
Redistricting Wars
- KSKara Swisher
they did it is midterms approach. We're seeing an impact of the redistricting wars. The Democratic path to retaking the House has narrowed according to the Cook Political Report. Thanks to newly redrawn maps across 10 states, the number of competitive swing seats has dropped from 87 to 77. Democrats need to win at least 57 of those 77, uh, seats to take back the House. And meanwhile, Maryland Democrats are trying to fight back. Lawmakers put a constitutional amendment on the ballot that could open the door to redrawing the state's congressional maps. But even if voters approve, the new maps wouldn't take effect until 2028. So talk m- a little bit about the gerrymandering for the upcoming... You're the first person who said, "I'm a little worried," to me, and I'm, I picked my head up. Huh, that's interesting.
- HCHillary Clinton
No, you know, no, look, the Republicans, you gotta give them credit. They know what they're doing. They, they have to, uh, try to narrow the electorate in order to elect their candidates, and they're, they're purging voters. They're, they're waging all these lawsuits trying to get ahold of, uh, voter rolls. Uh, they are trying to intimidate voters. They're trying to undermine confidence in the election. They know exactly what they're doing, and one of their most effective, uh, strategies is what they've done with gerrymandering and redistricting, uh, over the last years. And, you know, Republicans have no, uh, doubt about what's at stake. You know, they, they could care less about good government. They could care less about, you know, trying to figure out how we, uh, create an optimum, uh, environment for even more people to vote and feel their vote was counted. That's not what they're interested in. They're interested in winning, holding power, and then, uh, inflicting their values on all the rest of us. So the D- Democrats for years, and you know, there was a big movement. We wanted to go to nonpartisan, uh, redistricting. We wanted to make sure that, you know, people felt that they could vote in primaries or do what's called jungle voting, so they could vote for both Democrats or Republicans at the same time. We did all of this in the name of good government, expanding the electorate, all the right things. Meanwhile, the Republicans on the other side, uh, of the aisle were doing everything they could to, uh, create-
- KSKara Swisher
Rig, rig the system
- HCHillary Clinton
... a map that they would dominate.
- KSKara Swisher
Right.
- HCHillary Clinton
And they-
- KSKara Swisher
Right
- HCHillary Clinton
... they did it. So it wasn't enough for them, what they'd already done. Then Trump went looking for more votes 'cause he knew that the midterms would likely be bad for him, so that's when he called, you know, Abbott in Texas, and you know, I'm really happy that Gavin Newsom was one of the first to say, "We're fighting back. We're not gonna sit here-
- KSKara Swisher
Right
- HCHillary Clinton
... and be treated like chumps." You know, we're for good government. You're for power, and you're gonna dominate us for the foreseeable future. We're not gonna live in that world. So we have fought them to sort of a draw, but they ended up with an advantage, and there were a couple of states that resisted Trump until he literally, uh, picked candidates to beat the state legislators who thought it wasn't the right thing to do. So they are still on the march, uh, to do everything they can to advantage themselves. Our, you know, effort in Maryland fell short because a Democratic, uh, I think speaker of the House or Senate pro tem leader was against it, so he, Wes Moore couldn't get it out of, uh, the legislature, so he's trying to take it to a vote of the people. We saw what happened in Virginia, where they went to the extraordinary lengths of getting a, uh, a new map that they submitted to the voters. You didn't see Abbott doing that in Texas. They just drew the lines and, you know, told people to fall in line. And so, uh, when Virginia was overturned, that would've given us, if it hadn't been overturned on what I thought was a, kind of a, a procedural, uh, you know, uh, red herring. But they did it, so, uh, we lost those potential seats. So this is gonna be a real fight.
- KSKara Swisher
Most people think it's gonna be a slam dunk.
- HCHillary Clinton
I, I... Well, I'm, I'm always, I'm always worried. I think we will still win, but I don't know how big our margin will be.
- KSKara Swisher
Which needs to be... The margin's important.
- HCHillary Clinton
It does. It does. It needs to be big enough to accommodate our big tent and also to drive an agenda, uh, in the House. And I, I still think, like I say, I still think we're gonna win. I still think that, um, you know, the efforts that were made for us to fight back, you know, did give us some advantage. I think maybe we'll even see some surprises in the Texas redistricting because I'm not sure they did as good a job redistricting because of the way they cut up Black districts. But then along comes the Supreme Court decision gutting the Voting Rights Act, and so all of a sudden, that gave states that wanted to limit, uh, Black representation another bite at the apple, so to speak.
- KSKara Swisher
But it didn't work in Missouri. It didn't work in Missouri.
- HCHillary Clinton
But it worked in Louisiana.
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah, right. Yeah.
- HCHillary Clinton
Um, and it worked probably in Alabama, and so, you know, the... So they never stop. I guess my point is they're not interested in free and fair elections.
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah. So very briefly for the Senate, uh, most people think they, the Democrats will not take the Senate, but what is your prediction?
- HCHillary Clinton
I th- I think we still have a, a, a 50/50 shot. I mean, it really comes down to Michigan and Maine. Uh, can the new candidate in Maine beat Susan Collins? You know, she has a remarkable staying power in Maine. Um-
- KSKara Swisher
Speaking of carbuncles, yeah. So-
- HCHillary Clinton
I mean, the, the, yeah-
- KSKara Swisher
Barnacle
- HCHillary Clinton
... the, the, the, you know, Maine voters have voted for her while they voted for Democratic presidents, Democratic governors, and Democratic members of Congress. So he, you know, he seems to be, you know, really vigorously Trying. And unlike the, you know, the problems that we had with the first candidate, he seems to be in, I hope, the, the, the stretch to, you know, be able to compete all the way, no p- no surprises. And then back to Michigan, um, we'll see. We'll see whether, uh... And, and it's the best year for somebody like, uh, El-Sayed to be running. It's the best year because, you know, Trump is so unpopular. It's-- His popularity, I think, is down to 33%. So he will have the advantage of running against a Republican when Republican and the Republican brand is not in, in good standing.
- KSKara Swisher
Especially with the war, war dragging on especially, yeah.
- HCHillary Clinton
Yeah. And, and there-- And, and a lot of people I talk to about Iran, uh, Kara, say that we're not gonna be out of it by the election. It's gonna linger, uh, o- over, uh, this country, uh, and cause problems in the economy. And just about any way Trump now tries to get out of it, he's gonna look like a loser, which I think our candidates can then add to their messaging against, uh, Republicans.
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah. All right, Madam Secretary, let's go on a quick break. When we come back, Todd Blanche gets closer to becoming Trump's new attorney general. [gentle music]
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- KSKara Swisher
[gentle music]
- 26:55 – 35:00
Todd Blanche’s AG Future
- KSKara Swisher
Madam Secretary, we're back with more news. Senate Republicans advanced Todd Blanche's nomination for attorney general after he committed, uh, to killing Trump's anti-weaponization fund. Republican Senators John Cornyn and Tom Tillis dropped their opposition after Blanche put in writing the fund would not move forward. Democrats argued the changes aren't legally enforceable, and more of the fund could be revived in the future. Senate Judiciary Committee voted, uh, twelve to ten along party lines to send Blanche's nomination to the full Senate, where Republicans hold fifty-three seats. However, Senate-- with Senator Mitch McConnell expected to miss the vote, uh, Blanche can afford to lose only two Republican senators, and Susan Collins has already said she'll vote no. In great news, Blanche told faith leaders that he was planning to roll back abortion access. That's not great news for women, even in states that have laws protecting it, making Dobbs permanent in every state. Um, how much do you think the justice department changes under Blanche compared to the last several months? And how likely is the anti-weaponization fund resurfaces in another form? Now, a lot of people say, "If you didn't get Blanche, you just keep him there as acting," and what's the difference? Or it'll put someone worse in. Um, thoughts, although it's, you know, it's gone from bad to worse, from Pam Bondi.
- HCHillary Clinton
Well, look, I think, I think Todd Blanche has proven himself to be, uh, a total sycophant, uh, in, uh, every way. I mean, he had a, a fairly robust legal career before he began representing, uh, Trump, and he is all in. He's not the attorney general of the United States. He is the personal lawyer of Donald Trump presiding over the Department of Justice. And what they've-
- KSKara Swisher
Which he pointed out by accident-
- HCHillary Clinton
Yeah. What-
- KSKara Swisher
... in Freudian slip of all time.
- HCHillary Clinton
I know. And what they've done to the Justice Department, I don't think most people who are not lawyers or don't follow this closely realize what the perversion of justice means. You know, I've heard you and Scott talking, uh, about what are the, the real pillars of the American success, our political success, but especially our economic suc-success over, you know, two hundred and fifty years. Well, part of that was, you know, look, with exceptions, a rule of law, a justice department that we thought was, you know, mostly on the level, uh, a, a legal system with judges who were more interested in following the law than currying favor, uh, to the president who appointed, uh, them. That is a key to whether or not we have a confidence in our economic system as well as our political system. So what they've done to destroy confidence in the justice system has far-reaching implications. It's not just about Trump trying to get immunity from having his taxes, uh, ever audited. You know, uh, I've been in politics for a long time. I, I've been audited more times than I can remember. You know what? That's part of the way that you show that there's nothing to hide, and you show that you have confidence in our, uh, legal system. Trump doesn't want to be accountable to anybody, and he now has an attorney general who is a, you know, absolute implementer of whatever grunt or grievance, uh, that, you know, Trump, uh, puts forth. And I, I think, I think Todd Blanche is extremely dangerous. And the idea that you would say what he said about abortion when allegedly the Dobbs decision was to put it back in the states, that was never their final goal. They always intended to go from returning it to the states to try to prevent the states, like Kansas, a surprising red state that consistently votes to keep abortion out of politics, to give women the choice to make what is best for them and their families They don't want that. They, they want a uniform national, uh, set of, you know, criminal penalties and rules, and Todd Blanche is gonna deliver for them, uh, the best he can.
- KSKara Swisher
How can he do that?
- HCHillary Clinton
I don't know. I don't know what he means by that. I think what he means is they're gonna try to, uh-
- KSKara Swisher
With the pills, with the... 'Cause abortions are up. Numbers of abortions are up
- HCHillary Clinton
Yeah. Uh, that, that's the irony. If you really-
- KSKara Swisher
Of course
- HCHillary Clinton
... wanted abortions to fall, which I've been working for since the '90s. I've been working to decrease teen pregnancy, working to, you know, make abortions, uh, not necessary by providing, you know, contraception to people, uh, at an affordable, uh, way so that they could, you know, make decisions when they felt ready to make decisions, doing more education so that people, particularly young people, knew, uh, what was at stake. I mean, there's a lot of things you could do. Uh, but if you're gonna treat women like they're disposable commodities, and they should be barefoot and in the kitchen, you're gonna get more abortions, uh, because... And they're gonna be either legal abortions in the states where they are still, uh, available, or they're gonna be back alley abortions. And anybody who has studied history or knows anything about this understands it.
- KSKara Swisher
Right. So do you think he could bring, he could bring back the anti-weaponization fund or, or-
- HCHillary Clinton
He... Well, there's something called the-
- KSKara Swisher
It seems to, it seems to stick in Trump's craw quite a bit.
- HCHillary Clinton
Well, I, I think they will try to re, uh, imagine the weaponization fund and call it something else and bring it back because Trump wants to reward his, uh, insurgents, uh, particularly from January 6th, but, you know, others who have stuck with him despite, uh, all the, uh, evidence to the contrary. They want to finalize this immunity from, uh, auditing, which I don't see how they can do that, and I think that can be reversed. So I think he's gonna... He has a checklist. He has the Trump checklist. He's gonna go down it.
- KSKara Swisher
Right. Do-- [laughs] Would you apply for the anti-weaponization fund? [laughs]
- HCHillary Clinton
[laughs] Well-
- KSKara Swisher
It's kinda good
- HCHillary Clinton
... I don't think I'd be eligible under their definition.
- KSKara Swisher
Oh, really?
- HCHillary Clinton
But I would, I would, uh, you know, certainly, uh, you know, uh, con-consider it if they're gonna take care of, you know, the, the crazies on the right who, uh, tried to, uh, upset our election and were beating police officers, which is absolutely disgraceful.
- KSKara Swisher
So do you-- But do you, do you think he'll drop this? There's only a limited time he has.
- HCHillary Clinton
I think they're waiting to see what happens in the midterm. I think a lot of this will wait till after the midterms, and I think it's gonna be likely that Trump is even more out of control after the midterms. And let's, let's assume, from my perspective, the best happens. We take back the House, we take back the Senate. He's not gonna work with them. Uh, he's going to do everything he can to undermine them. Uh, he's, he's going to instruct people who work for him not to respond to inquiries or even subpoenas. He's going to be in a big standoff with the Congress, and he's going to be using executive orders and whatever power he has from the presidency to pursue his agenda. I think he'll be pardoning a lot more corrupt people. You know, you look at the list of the pardons that he's given, it's a total transactional exchange. You or somebody on your behalf gives me money. I don't care if you've cheated, you know, elderly people in nursing homes, which one of the people that he pardoned did, uh, to great cost to them, and you owe them billions of dollars in, uh, compensation. I'm gonna, I'm gonna take the money and just erase that. And I think a Democrat-- Democrats can run against some of those pardons. Most people have no idea, uh, what, uh, he has done.
- KSKara Swisher
What he's given out, what he's given out. Yeah.
- HCHillary Clinton
Yeah, and what he's taken for it. I mean, the amount-
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah
- HCHillary Clinton
... of money that he's taken for it.
- KSKara Swisher
Right. No, it is coin operated. Um-
- HCHillary Clinton
It is coin operated.
- 35:00 – 45:20
Iran Deal?
- KSKara Swisher
of water, the US, US and Iran are reportedly closing in on an interim agreement to reopen the Strait of Hormuz. I think-- I feel like it's Groundhog Day here. We've heard that before. Similar deals and arrangements have been made, only to collapse when attacks resume. Trump said Tuesday night that a lot of progress has been made, though that came a day after he warned Iran could face decapitation if it failed to reach a deal, all which he said before he was gonna bomb them back to last Sunday or whatever. We're now in the six months of, uh, uh, of this war that was supposed to last for a couple of weeks. Talk a little bit about this, uh, and I'm gonna make you repeat something I've had you repeat several times, but what do you think is happening here, and do you have any confidence in this latest deal?
- HCHillary Clinton
Well, I, I, I don't have any confidence that it's a good deal, but it may be the best deal Trump can get because he doesn't, uh, really understand. I mean, he, he approved of a ceasefire agreement a few months ago that was a terrible deal for the United States and the region and international shipping and, you know, the list goes on. So he, he really doesn't understand, uh, what, uh, is happening and, and what the stakes can be. So as I understand this latest, uh, attempt at a deal, it would result in fees being charged to, uh, at least, uh, some category of container ships going through the Strait of Hormuz. Uh, it would be a, a, quote, "a service fee." Now, that has never been applied prior to this ill-conceived war that, uh, Trump, uh, embarked on, so that's a definite loss. The loss is that what used to be free, free navigation, uh, a commercial, you know, sea lane that was open to everybody is now going to be, in effect, taxed by Oman and Iran. That's the first loss. Second loss is- You know, Iran still has ballistic missiles. It still is producing, uh, deadly drones. It is still attacking, uh, shipping, uh, and it is still, uh, encouraging, uh, at least its, uh, proxy, the Houthis, to attack, and they went so far as literally to attack, uh, a ship in Egyptian waters. So what happened to the destruction of their ability to launch ballistic missiles, to launch deadly drones? That's a third loss. The leadership, yeah, he got rid of the people who were at the top, but the infrastructure prevailed. So you now have probably a more militaristic, um, uh, government, uh, structure that the, you know, Iranian Revolutionary Guard Corps dominates, and the clerics have been somewhat weakened but are still useful to keep the regime, uh, in place. So that's a third loss. Um, and I think the fourth loss is that a lot of our allies have watched this in total confusion. I mean, the lack of strategy, the lack of effective implementation, the lack of results that were trumpeted as, uh, what was going to be achieved, and people are gonna not just start, they have started hedging their bets. I mean, how are you going to look at the United States, at least so long as Trump is there, uh, with any kind of confidence, uh, at all? So I, I think it's, it's a major loss, not just for Trump, sadly, but for the United States.
- KSKara Swisher
So w- two things. If he called you and said, "Hillary, I want you to get in here and fix this for me," what would you do? And secondly, you said something, it's-- I, I think you said Putin's in it in a s- a way, Netanyahu's in it in a way.
- HCHillary Clinton
Yeah.
- KSKara Swisher
It's the le-
- HCHillary Clinton
It's called the domain of loss. So let me, let me talk about that first, and then I'll answer the question about if he were to call me or, you know, uh, somebody were to ask me what to do that had any authority. So the domain of loss is a psychological concept, and it applies to human behavior. When you think you're losing, and this is why casinos make so much money and why gambling makes so much money in general, um, the likelihood is you will double down, you know, until something happens that you either run out of money or you, uh, are kicked out of the casino because you can't pay your debts, whatever it might be. Well, the domain of loss is a concept that applies much more generally to our behaviors. And for leaders, it's the, uh, description of how they double down on losing hands. So in today's world, Putin is doubling down. He's going to inflict as much punishment as he can on Ukraine because they won't quit. They won't, you know, lie down and die the way that he wants them to. Uh, Trump is going to continue to, you know, uh, rant and rave. Uh, he's gonna go after his enemies. Uh, he's doubling d- he, he keeps threatening to double down on Iran. Maybe we'll get out of this, maybe we won't. And the same thing with Netanyahu. I mean, he's in the domain of loss, so he has to keep, you know, fighting in order to preserve his political, in his mind, his political, uh, chances. And it, it's a, it's a psychological, uh, description of behavior that I have found very useful. So let's say somebody called and said, "How do we get out of this?" Well, I think you have to broaden the decision-makers. One of the problems with Trump is he has a very narrow, uh, band of people that he relies on to negotiate everything. And, you know, after a while, that just doesn't work. I mean, even if they were the most accomplished negotiators, diplomats, whatever, you know, it's the same people you're sending everywhere. It just doesn't make the impact, and it doesn't have the staying power that patient diplomacy requires. So who has the most to gain from getting the strait open, getting this war over? Well, obviously, the Gulf, uh, region does, but so does India, and so does, uh, China, and so does Japan, and, you know, people who depend upon oil, uh, that is either coming from Iran or coming from the region that needs to go through, uh, the Strait of Hormuz. And I would have them be playing a very active role in, you know, basically persuading the Iranians to back down from charging fees, which is only gonna make their costs go up as oil is transported to them. I would be looking for ways to try to get them personally engaged, uh, with the Gulf so that the Gulf, uh, Arabs would be similarly sending that message. You know, "Why are you raising all of our costs? You know, this is not good for us. It may be in the short term, you know, a tactic, but it's not gonna be, uh, a long-term strategy." So it would be to expand the base of people that are interacting, uh, with Iran and to make it clear that Iran has some, you know, stake in getting this over, getting the strait open, and being, you know, open to negotiations on its nuclear program, which I think is gonna be extremely hard. You know, I told you-
- KSKara Swisher
Right
- HCHillary Clinton
... once, Kara, I started the nu- the nuclear negotiations back in twenty eleven after we got a security council resolution that imposed global sanctions on Iran, which had never happened before. And then, you know, I worked with the Gulf, particularly with Oman, which is now a major player in what happens, uh, going forward, and we began secret negotiations, very small, uh, group of, uh, Americans and Iranians, to test whether they would be, uh, willing to negotiate seriously about their nuclear, uh, program. And, you know, eventually, we ended up with a, an agreement. And, you know, people say, "Oh, it didn't go far enough." Well, it's hard. [chuckles] You know? Doing negotiations is hard, and we've seen the alternative. We've tried to bomb their nuclear program-
- KSKara Swisher
Doesn't work
- HCHillary Clinton
... out of existence.
- KSKara Swisher
We haven't decapitated them-
- HCHillary Clinton
We have not-
- KSKara Swisher
... as it turns out
- HCHillary Clinton
... you know, we've decapitated, but we haven't ended, uh, the, uh, regime or its ambitions.
- KSKara Swisher
Right, and it continues to be so. Um, would you... What, what do you think his next move will be?
- HCHillary Clinton
I think it depends upon his mood. I mean, he is the most impulsive, moodiest president. It depends upon how he's feeling, how he's being treated, what is being said about him. You know, the Iranians have played him, sadly, very effectively because every time he says there's an agreement, they say, "We're not negotiating. We're not... We, we don't know what you're talking about." So if, so if he can be quiet [clears throat] and try to figure out how to get a better deal than it seems like the one that is being offered could be, maybe he can get himself out of this in, you know, a couple of weeks. Otherwise, it's gonna be a ping pong game. You know, he's gonna get upset, he's gonna attack, and we're running out of munitions. We're [laughs] running-
- KSKara Swisher
Munitions, yeah
- HCHillary Clinton
... out of missiles.
- KSKara Swisher
Sexual bombs, yeah.
- HCHillary Clinton
And, and, and one of the great tragedies of this unnecessary, not well-planned, uh, war in Iran is that we should have been, uh, doing more to help Ukraine to defend itself against Russia. They've run out of Patriot missiles. They can't defend against, uh, Russia's missiles. Putin is, you know, just angry and determined to just beat them into submission, kill as many civilians as possible. It's not gonna break the Ukrainians, but it's unnecessary, terrible, uh, cost of human life.
- KSKara Swisher
Where we could have had a win there.
- HCHillary Clinton
Literally, we could have helped the Ukrainians end the Ukrainian war by helping them defend themselves.
- KSKara Swisher
And he would have gotten the Nobel Peace Prize.
- HCHillary Clinton
I think, you know, I'm the one... I said this months ago. I said, "If he got an honorable peace with Ukraine, they don't have to give up any property, they can go back to running their country," I'd nominate him for the Peace Prize. But he's more-
- KSKara Swisher
No, he... Wow
- HCHillary Clinton
... interested in his relationship with Putin.
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah.
- HCHillary Clinton
I don't know-
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah, yeah
- HCHillary Clinton
... all the reasons for that, but you know, he wants Putin's, uh, favor even more than he wants a Nobel Peace Prize.
- 45:20 – 49:47
Hillary Memes
- KSKara Swisher
that, that picture of you and Obama laughing, which is, it's the second meme that's taken off-
- HCHillary Clinton
[laughs]
- KSKara Swisher
What precisely were you telling him right then when you were laughing, for people that... It's so funny.
- HCHillary Clinton
Well, you know, I was sitting behind him at the opening of, uh, their, you know, very impressive, uh, Obama Presidential Center in Chicago, and I hope people get to go visit, and come visit our presidential center. I mean, presidential centers really try to tell the history that Trump and others don't want you to hear. So, um, we were sitting there, I was sitting behind him, and Michelle Obama was giving this incredibly clever speech, uh, touting all of, uh, Barack's many accomplishments, and then, you know, she got to, "And, of course, you received a Nobel Peace Prize," and I burst into laughter. He started to giggle. Um, I poked him in the back and I said, "Oh my God, I am sure Trump is watching this. He is, thinks he's now in the third circle of hell." I mean, the way that, uh, you, she just tweaked him about the Nobel Peace Prize, and he goes, "Yeah, I hope he is." [laughs] It was great.
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah. So the two of you had that moment. Do you like your little memes, your little Obama memes?
- HCHillary Clinton
I do. I do.
- KSKara Swisher
[laughs]
- HCHillary Clinton
I mean, it's fun for me because, um, you know, I never know what might become a meme. I'm just out there living my life, and all of a sudden there's a meme. Uh, but the first meme was with me in sunglasses looking at my BlackBerry-
- KSKara Swisher
iPhone
- HCHillary Clinton
... I think 100 years ago.
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah. Like, "Fuck you." That was the fuck you meme.
- HCHillary Clinton
On a, on a plane, yeah.
- KSKara Swisher
Right.
- HCHillary Clinton
And two young men did that meme, and I thought it was so funny. I invited them to the State Department so that I could meet them, [laughs] so we could take a picture. I said, "Here, we'll have a real picture." So yeah, I get a kick out of it, and look, there's-
- KSKara Swisher
You get a lot of memes.
- HCHillary Clinton
I have a lot of memes.
- KSKara Swisher
[laughs]
- HCHillary Clinton
Yeah.
- KSKara Swisher
Me too.
- HCHillary Clinton
Some are good, some are not so good, but, you know-
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah
- HCHillary Clinton
... it's kind of, it, it, it kinda goes with, you know, the life that I lead.
- KSKara Swisher
I like the one of Trump, uh, looming behind you memes. That, that's one [laughs] of my favorites. I thought that-
- HCHillary Clinton
Oh my God, that was so bizarre. You know, people-
- KSKara Swisher
I know
- HCHillary Clinton
... still talk to me about that. I mean, I, literally-
- KSKara Swisher
It was disturbing.
- HCHillary Clinton
It-
- KSKara Swisher
I wish you had turned around and said, "What are you doing?" Like, how did that-
- HCHillary Clinton
Yeah. You know, I've thought about that 100,000 times-
- 49:47 – 52:38
AI Regulation
- HCHillary Clinton
I think it's how we're gonna govern AI. I mean, there's attention being given to it, Kara, but there's no real action. You know, this government, other governments are wringing their hands. They know that we're heading into a totally unknown world. Uh, if I were able to wave a magic wand, I would be having literally a, a huge diplomatic effort with experts and, you know, really, uh, other people from different parts of the economy besides AI, literally working on treaties and covenants and rules and standards and basically bring the world together against, you know, the tech companies because, you know, there's no way to deal with what is coming at us unless we have some kind of global response, and that's just not happening. I mean, there are conversations, you know. The tech CEOs were in Washington yesterday talking to Trump, but, you know, he wants to take pieces of their equity. He doesn't wanna govern, uh, in any effective way about what they're producing other than things that might be totally, uh, scary to national security. But I, I just feel like there needs to be some global effort to try to get ahead of this insofar as possible.
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm. Insofar as poss- so this is the story. I think data centers are the proxy politically-
- HCHillary Clinton
I do too
- KSKara Swisher
... for people's worries about it.
- HCHillary Clinton
And can you blame people?
- KSKara Swisher
You know, it's really... No.
- HCHillary Clinton
I mean, these big, hulking-
- KSKara Swisher
Noisy
- HCHillary Clinton
... concrete buildings that-
- KSKara Swisher
Dirty
- HCHillary Clinton
... make all kinds of noise and suck up water and get put onto your grid and maybe raise your prices. I mean, it-- these questions need to be looked at. I mean, I, I was, uh, uh, approving of Kathy Hochul when she, you know, put on a, um, a moratorium. Let's figure out what this means before just, you know, willy-nilly going ahead. So I think people's instincts who are showing up at city council and county commissions and all kinds of political forums to say, "No, we don't want this," or, "At least tell us what we're getting and, and how to make sure that it's not gonna be harmful." I think, I think people have a good instinct about this.
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah. A mayor of Lansing was telling he had a good deal, and the people wouldn't accept it 'cause they're so angry at it. You know, you can't even do a good deal. It was-
- HCHillary Clinton
Yeah
- KSKara Swisher
... you know, apology.
- HCHillary Clinton
But, I mean, we don't really... D- does the mayor of Lansing really know what a good deal is? Wouldn't it be good if we took a hard look at our very creaky grid and said, "Here are things you have to do in order to buttress the grid"? I mean-
- KSKara Swisher
It's a bigger... It's bigger. Local people shouldn't be stuck with figuring this out.
- HCHillary Clinton
It, it's too big. It, it's too big-
- KSKara Swisher
Right
- HCHillary Clinton
... and the issues are national and even global.
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah, absolutely. Um, I yelled at Tony Blinken at a dinner many years ago, saying we'd have to have global AI standards, [laughs] and he just nodded at the time.
- HCHillary Clinton
[laughs] From local to global, right?
- KSKara Swisher
Global. I said it's global. It's a global issue.
- HCHillary Clinton
Yeah.
- KSKara Swisher
All right, moving on. What are the three
- 52:38 – 57:19
2028 Dems
- KSKara Swisher
most important qualities a Democratic presidential candidate needs to have in 2028?
- HCHillary Clinton
That he or she can win the electoral college. That is the only quality, and because we don't know what's gonna appeal to the electorate. Uh, will the Democratic primary voters, uh, want a relief after Trump, a counterpoint to Trump? Will they want a fighter, somebody who is just, you know, fists up all the time? We don't know. So seeing who gets through the Democratic primary, uh, is right now-
- KSKara Swisher
It's just gonna be a rumble. There's a lot of people
- HCHillary Clinton
... it's a tr- it's totally unpredictable.
- KSKara Swisher
Right.
- HCHillary Clinton
But then you gotta be able to win, and it's, from my personal experience, you don't... That doesn't mean getting more votes. It means winning the electoral college, and that is hard for Democrats, and s- it's something that a lot of Democratic primary voters are understandably not thinking about. You know, I'm gonna vote for who I like. I'm gonna vote for who's expressing my anger. I'm gonna vote for, you know, the person that, you know, I think, uh, can be the best fighter. All of that's great. But somewhere in the back of your mind, you need... Can this person win the electoral college? And at the end of the day, if we're gonna win, that's what matters.
- KSKara Swisher
That's what mat- that's all that'll matters.
- HCHillary Clinton
It's all that will matter.
- KSKara Swisher
And so it wouldn't be if it's a man or a woman or-
- HCHillary Clinton
No
- KSKara Swisher
... or-
- HCHillary Clinton
No.
- KSKara Swisher
No?
- HCHillary Clinton
But I, I don't think we should be preemptively disqualifying anybody. Let everybody get out and compete and see who emerges. And, and I hope it's somebody who can be a good president, not just win, um, but can also, going into office, be prepared, like we were talking about earlier-
- KSKara Swisher
For cleanup
- HCHillary Clinton
... cleanup, fix things.
- KSKara Swisher
Cleanup.
- HCHillary Clinton
You know? The, the-
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah, that's been... There'll, there'll gonna be a lot of-
- HCHillary Clinton
There's gonna be so much to fix. I mean, first, you know, get rid of all of the holdovers. Do not let anybody hang around in some small office somewhere who can literally subvert your, uh, program, and you don't even know that person's there. And I will predict that, you know, Trump and his minions are gonna try to, you know-
- KSKara Swisher
Put people
- HCHillary Clinton
... they're gonna try to move, um, people from political appointments to so-called civil service appointments, although they're trying to destroy-
- KSKara Swisher
So they're stuck there
- HCHillary Clinton
... the civil service. So people are gonna have to be really searching, uh, to make sure that they are not going to be literally subverted from within the government.
- KSKara Swisher
From... That's a really good point. That's a really smart point. Um, is there... Very quickly, is there any Republican candidate you're looking at that you think is trouble?
- HCHillary Clinton
No. I mean, obviously everybody's talking about, you know, Vance and, and Rubio. I, I don't know, but I think there'll be a lot of Republicans running. The real question is, what will Trump do to try to hold onto power? Will he stay? Try... You know, he, he, when he goes around putting that, you know, third term hat on, y- you always have to take Trump at his tell. You know, this is a tell. He would love to serve a third term, or at least he'd love to have the power of a third term if he can install somebody, uh, as the, you know-
- KSKara Swisher
That's a good point. Yeah
- HCHillary Clinton
... president that he controls. And so who's he gonna pick? Who's he gonna be, uh, behind? And Is he looking for an opportunity to try to upend that election? You know, he's acted like he didn't care about the midterms, but he has $400 million sitting in a super PAC.
- KSKara Swisher
Right. Right.
- HCHillary Clinton
And-
- 57:19 – 1:01:26
HRC Rapid Fire
- KSKara Swisher
few rapid-fire questions for you that are more fun for you. All right, what TV show are you watching right now?
- HCHillary Clinton
Well, I'm about to watch the new season of Ted Lasso.
- KSKara Swisher
Oh, wow.
- HCHillary Clinton
So I love Ted Lasso, and Jason, uh, Sudeikis, and, uh, Hannah Waddington-
- KSKara Swisher
Waddingham. It's Waddingham, actually
- HCHillary Clinton
... Waddingham, and cast members were at the Liberty game when I was there because this season, he is convinced to coach a woman's, a woman's team. So I am really excited about... I think it starts tonight or tomorrow. I mean, it, it's gonna, it's gonna be a lot of fun, and we need, we need some, you know, some positive, good feeling going on again.
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah. He's there a lot, Jason. I, I-
- HCHillary Clinton
Is he?
- KSKara Swisher
... I ran into him at the Liberty game. Yeah, he's always there. He's like a big-
- HCHillary Clinton
Yeah, I had a great conversation with him. He's really-
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah
- HCHillary Clinton
... excited about this season. He, he said-
- KSKara Swisher
Speaking of Hannah, did you see Ride or Die? It kinda reminds me of you, Hillary. [laughs] I could see you as an-
- HCHillary Clinton
I have no-
- KSKara Swisher
... international assassin
- HCHillary Clinton
... she, she is amazing. I, I really-
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah, she is
- HCHillary Clinton
... I, I like her
- KSKara Swisher
She's a tall drink of water, this-
- HCHillary Clinton
Yeah, she is a tall drink of water, but she is-
- KSKara Swisher
It-
- HCHillary Clinton
... so much fun. She has a great sense of humor.
- KSKara Swisher
It... Wa- watch Ride or Die.
- HCHillary Clinton
Okay, I got Ride or Die. I'm writing it down.
- KSKara Swisher
Ride or Die. You will love it. It's so funny. I finished it last night. All right, you're the grandmother of three. What do your grandkids call you, and what's your favorite thing you do with them? I see you're wearing a necklace with your granddaughter's name, actually.
- HCHillary Clinton
Yeah, well, I, also my grandsons. All three of them are on this, this little necklace. Um, they call me Grandma, and I just like doing anything with them. I like, you know, hanging out with them. I like swimming. I like hiking. I like watching f- funny television shows with them or whatever they're interested in. I like reading with them. I mean, literally any time I get to spend with them is, you know, just a delight for me. It's, it, it, it, it is the only experience in life that is not, uh, overrated. It is really worth waiting for.
- KSKara Swisher
Do, do they know who you are? Do they know? Do they have a sense of who you are? [laughs]
- HCHillary Clinton
I, I think, you know, they, they f- I remember, um, my grandson found a book in his school library that was about me, one of these little paperback books about my life, and he checked it out, and he brought it home, and he said, "You have a book about you." [laughs]
- KSKara Swisher
[laughs] Yeah.
- HCHillary Clinton
So I think, I think they know that their grandfather was president. I think they know, you know, that I was in, you know, a senator and secretary of state. I, I'm not sure they fully grasp it, but they find it, you know, somewhat confounding. Like, how, how... When did this happen to you? What did you do?
- 1:01:26 – 1:06:10
Predictions
- KSKara Swisher
Do you have a prediction for us?
- HCHillary Clinton
Yes, I do predict that we will take, uh, back the House. I predict that, even with all of the obstacles, and I predict we have a slightly better than 50/50 chance to take back the Senate, even with all of the obstacles.
- KSKara Swisher
All right. That's a good prediction. I'm gonna make a very brief prediction. Um, David Ellison, um, wrote an op in The New York Times saying Democratic state AGs are fighting in court because of false perception about his politics. I don't really care. I didn't like the essay very much. But, um, the antitrust trial is n- what he wanted to start in November, cl- Paramount did. The judge set for March. I think there's gonna be a settlement. There has to be. This, this is economics, surrender economics.
- HCHillary Clinton
What do you think will be in the settlement? Do you have any thoughts on that?
- KSKara Swisher
I don't know. I don't know. It depends on... I think Bonta, Rob Bonta has played this rather well, and he'll probably be governor of California at some point. I mean, I think, I think he's done it.
- HCHillary Clinton
Well, he's been a, he's been a good attorney general, and I-
- KSKara Swisher
He has
- HCHillary Clinton
... I, I like, I like him. Um-
- KSKara Swisher
I think he surprised them. I thought they were arrogant. And I think, um, I don't know, maybe spinning off the cable network, spinning off CNN. It's hard because if they get rid of CNN, there's a b- they make a lot of money from CNN right now.
- HCHillary Clinton
Really?
- KSKara Swisher
So they won't-- Yeah.
- HCHillary Clinton
They make money from CNN?
- KSKara Swisher
They do, $700 million. It's profitable.
- HCHillary Clinton
Huh.
- KSKara Swisher
So they need the money because of the eight hun- $80 billion in debt. It's a real financial... Even as people as rich as the Ellisons, they're gonna have to give up a lot of money to own something that they may not wanna own. So I don't know.
- HCHillary Clinton
So you think there'll be a settlement between now and the start of a trial in March?
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah. Wouldn't you? You're a lawyer.
- HCHillary Clinton
Well-
- KSKara Swisher
What would you do?
- HCHillary Clinton
I, I think, doesn't he have a breakup fee or a d- a delay fee?
- KSKara Swisher
Yes, that, June. By June.
- HCHillary Clinton
Yeah.
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah. There's a delay fee and a breakup fee.
- HCHillary Clinton
Yeah, the delay fee-
- KSKara Swisher
So it starts to add up
- HCHillary Clinton
I think the delay fee-
- KSKara Swisher
Billions
- HCHillary Clinton
... starts in October. So I mean-
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah, so-
- HCHillary Clinton
... he's gonna be paying a lot of money because he can't close the deal.
Episode duration: 1:06:10
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Transcript of episode cWjk3U_1-Gk
