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Is Stephen Miller Running the White House? | Pivot

Kara Swisher is joined by guest co-host Anthony Scaramucci to discuss why so many business leaders have stayed silent about ICE violence in Minneapolis — and why it's time to push back against Donald Trump (and Stephen Miller). Then, Trump goes on the record about his health in a new interview that’s raising more questions and concerns. Plus, TikTok seals the deal to stay in the U.S., but glitches abound. #pivot #podcast #karaswisher #anthonyscaramucci #ICE #minneapolis #stephenmiller #trump #tiktok 00:00 Intro 01:52 ICE Violence 03:32 CEO Silence 21:19 Stephen Miller Power Grab 35:18 Trump’s Health 46:42 TikTok Makes a Deal 1:01:10 Wins and Fails Producers: Lara Naaman Zoë Marcus Taylor Griffin Video Producer: Rich Shibley Vox Media's Executive Producer of Podcasts: Nishat Kurwa Subscribe to Pivot on Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/pivot/id1073226719 Subscribe to Pivot on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/4MU3RFGELZxPT9XHVwTNPR Follow us on Instagram and Threads at: https://www.instagram.com/pivotpodcastofficial/ Follow us on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@PIVOTPODCAST Send us your questions by calling us at 855-51-PIVOT, or email pivot@voxmedia.com

Anthony ScaramucciguestKara Swisherhost
Jan 27, 20261h 8mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 1:52

    Intro

    1. AS

      Kara, you know, you grew up like I did. You know, you're Italian. You don't give a [laughing] shit, okay? You know I don't give a shit. I'm ready to fight-

    2. KS

      Yeah.

    3. AS

      -you know, 'cause I grew up here on Long Island. We were doing push-ups in the parking lot outside of discos, getting ready to fight people, okay? I don't give a shit. I will fight Trump every step of the way. [upbeat music]

    4. KS

      Hi, everyone. This is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Kara Swisher. Scott is somewhere on a plane. We did an emergency pod yesterday, and I'm glad you all listened to it. We were- we thought it was critical to do it. So today, I'm joined by a friend of the pod, the one, the only Anthony Scaramucci, also known as The Mooch. Anthony, welcome.

    5. AS

      Kara, it's good to be here. Thanks for having me. And I saw Scott last week in Davos. I enjoyed his commentary, and, uh... well, I enjoy your commentary.

    6. KS

      Thank you, Anthony. Um [chuckles] anyway, I'm gonna call you Anthony, not The Mooch anymore.

    7. AS

      Okay.

    8. KS

      Uh, I like that better. You, you sit up straight when I say Anthony.

    9. AS

      I'm sitting up straight. You, you, you yelled at me before we started to sit up straight.

    10. KS

      I get it, 'cause it's very serious-

    11. AS

      Thanks, Mom.

    12. KS

      Anytime.

    13. AS

      Thanks, Mom.

    14. KS

      But, but we are in a serious zone today, and actually, I'm glad to have you here because I do want to talk about businesspeople and their reaction to what's happening, uh, in Minnesota and elsewhere. But before we do anything, I'd like to point out that as the episode drops, it's been 39 days since the deadline passed for the DOJ to release all the Epstein files. Again, uh, Pam Bondi is in violation of a law, and they have not released them, and mmm, part of this, what's happening, has to do with this, too. So let's not forget that they are out there, and probably, as someone noted on, uh, one of the social media sites, they're safer than anything in America right now are the Epstein files. Um, anyway, we've got a lot to discuss, so let's get to it. Uh,

  2. 1:52 – 3:32

    ICE Violence

    1. KS

      Donald Trump says his administration is reviewing everything surrounding the shooti- shooting of 37-year-old ICU nurse Alex Pretty in Minneapolis this weekend. He's also now sending his border czar, Tom Homan, to Minneapolis. The leading GOP candidate for Minnesota governor just dropped out of the race, saying he can't support the national Republican retribution on the citizens of his state, and as we record, a federal judge is hearing arguments on temporarily halting the immigration crackdown in Minnesota. On the latest episode of On with Kara Swisher, I spoke with Minneapolis Mayor Jacob Frey. This was before the Alex Pretty shooting, but Frey knew another incident was inevitable. Let's listen.

    2. SP

      For over a month, uh, before Rene Good was shot, the chief of police and I were both privately and publicly expressing concerns that somebody was gonna get shot or killed, that either a civilian, a resident, a police officer, or an ICE agent was gonna get shot and killed, and tragically, that happened, and then it happened again. And by the way, it's gonna happen again on top of that, uh, eh, because this is the kind of conduct that we're seeing that i- i- inevitably will lead to people getting hurt. Um, eh, it's deeply concerning. Um, eh, but it's not just Minneapolis that should be concerned right now. I have a deep concern for the endurance of our republic when the constitutional norms and these mainstays of good governing principles are thrown in the trash can.

    3. KS

      Unfortunately, he was prescient, although I think a lot of people did understand the escalating tensions there.

  3. 3:32 – 21:19

    CEO Silence

    1. KS

      I'll also note, I've been calling out CEOs for their silence on this. As comedian Steve Hofstetter put it on Threads: "If speaking out against fascism damages your brand, that means your brand is fascism." But since our last recording, some execs are speaking out, at least in Minnesota. On Sunday, more than 60 CEOs of Minnesota-based companies, including Target, Best Buy, and 3M, released a letter calling for de-escalation. It took them long enough. And more than 450 tech workers, uh, from Google, uh, Meta, OpenAI, and other companies have signed a letter urging CEOs to demand ICE leave cities and cancel company contracts with ICE. Uh, Scott and I talked about what happened this week as a turning point. Anthony, I'd love your thoughts on this, 'cause you're, you... Uh, again, you were just at Davos, tons of business leaders. You obviously are tuned into the political system. You are a Republican who has turned away from the Republican Party, uh, very early, I would add.

    2. AS

      Mm-hmm.

    3. KS

      Talk about what, what is happening here, um, from a... You know, obviously, we're all worried about, uh, the republic itself, as the mayor had, but it's, it's a, it's an on-the-ground, moving situation. So I'd love you to look at it from the business point of view-

    4. AS

      Sure

    5. KS

      ... from Trump's point of view, and, and your own.

    6. AS

      Yeah, well, well, I, I, I, I think it's important to understand what they were trying to do and how it backfired, then we'll talk about the businesspeople. So what they were trying to do, 'cause I know these sons of bitches, is they were trying to set up a great media exposition for themselves in the culture war. And so here are the narrative: the, uh, Minnesota blue state, blue state is bad. Corruption in the blue state is conjoined. This is the conspiracy nonsense.

    7. KS

      This is the only thing.

    8. AS

      Yeah, exactly, but it's a conspiracy where the-

    9. KS

      'Cause it is the greatest issue our nation faces, a group of people who committed fraud. You should just look at the White House on any given day, but go ahead.

    10. AS

      I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I understand the pushback, and we can talk about the Democrats, how they should be responding better to it, but I want you to understand what they're doing. So they're sitting there saying, "Okay, this is great. We're gonna send the ICE people up there. They're gonna rough these people up, and this is gonna be great for our culture war. Uh, we're gonna send a signal to our red meat-eating, law-abiding people that we're getting tough on people, particularly in the blue states, where they're doing, quote-unquote, 'all the fraud.'" Now, they send inexperienced ICE agents up there, and we, we saw the videos, and Trump saw the videos, which is why he's panicked, and they murdered the guy. I mean, that's basically what happened, and now the whole thing has blown back on them, and so this media imagery that they were looking for has been a negative media imagery.... the problem-

    11. KS

      So just pictures, you're saying just photos which are-

    12. AS

      Pictures, yeah, they, they wanted a Fox News day of programming, where the day's set from the eight o'clock for 12 hours, look at the Trump administration, how tough-ass they are-

    13. KS

      In action.

    14. AS

      In action-

    15. KS

      In action.

    16. AS

      And we're, we're de- de- defending the Republic against fraud, and we're mean, and we're tough, and we're taking five-year-olds because that's what we're supposed to be doing. And they're tone deaf to the overall optics, and then they created a Kent State-like moment. For the older listeners, the younger listeners, um, a National Guardsman shot a student at Kent State, and it flipped the entire political landscape at that time. And so, so what's happening here is the landscape is starting to flip, but concomitant to this is the chilling effect that Donald Trump and his Department of Justice and his jackbooted people have on business leaders. So hear me out for a second. If you're on a corporate board and you have a public CEO, you're telling the guy or the woman, "Chill out, take a back seat. There's 1,000 days left for Trump. If you're the managing partner of a law firm, negotiate with him. If you're a president of a university, negotiate with him. He's not, quote, unquote, 'Adolf Hitler.' He's a lame duck president, and while he's flexing on you, take it. Don't overly criticize him because he could do damage to our long-term brand and damage to our long-term stock market performance."

    17. KS

      Mm-hmm.

    18. AS

      Okay, and that's up to-

    19. KS

      Short term, actually.

    20. AS

      Short term.

    21. KS

      But go ahead.

    22. AS

      Short term, but that's, that's up against the stuff that you just said about your brand is fascism, okay? So the mistake that they're all making is, you have to reject Donald Trump. If you don't flex on Donald Trump and reject Donald Trump, you'll be at a disadvantage. He'll continue to roll you. European leaders, wake up. Business leaders, wake up. Somebody pick up the phone and call Mark Carney, the Prime Minister of Canada, and get some executive coaching, some leadership coaching from him, because he gets it, okay? You know, you know, uh, Newsom is close, by the way. Now, Newsom would be number two in terms of getting it. You have to shove and push Trump back if you're gonna get any respect from Donald Trump.

    23. KS

      So can I ask you, you were at Davos. What did-

    24. AS

      Yeah.

    25. KS

      Let me just say, I talked to them behind the scenes, including people that are close to Trump. Let me just say, like, couldn't... So close, they wouldn't- they could be on the other side of him. They abhor him. It's really-- At one point, I, it was with two people I ran into on a plane, and they spent 20 minutes trying to tell me, "You know, we really can't stand him." And I go: "You need to shut the fuck up if you're not gonna say it publicly, [chuckles] 'cause I don't-- you're not gonna win my love because what you're doing is so complicit." And so talk a little bit about that, 'cause you're at Davos. They obviously... Do they still shrug and say... 'Cause initially, it was sort of the shruggies with business people. "Oh, we'll have to deal with it, and then he'll be gone. Like, this will, this too will pass." It, has that, did that change at all?

    26. AS

      It's gotten worse.

    27. KS

      Especially 'cause-

    28. AS

      No, it's gotten worse

    29. KS

      ... the Europeans.

    30. AS

      No, it's gotten worse.

  4. 21:19 – 35:18

    Stephen Miller Power Grab

    1. AS

      but you see, the, the real question, though, for me, is how are we letting Stephen Miller, who couldn't get confirmed as a dog catcher... Forget about anything else.

    2. KS

      So you explain.

    3. AS

      This-

    4. KS

      You were there with him.

    5. AS

      This, this evil-

    6. KS

      How?

    7. AS

      Well, I'm gonna tell you how. Because Stephen Miller bought call options on the worst day of Trump's political life, which was January 6th, 2021, where Kevin McCarthy said he's finished, McConnell said he's finished. They told Pelosi, "We don't need to impeach and remove him from office, because he's politically finished after what he did." Mr. Miller bought call options on Trump's electoral success in 2024. Nobody else bought those call options. And then Miller said, "This is fantastic. I'm an evil guy. I hate people, and I want to inflict pain on people, and Trump is my empty vessel to get back into the White House. And oh, by the way, we're gonna have four years to prepare ourselves to be even more dastardly and more evil, and to remove more normal people out of the checks and balances of Trump one. We're gonna have lapdogs in Trump two, like Bessent and Butlick or, or Nutlick, whatever the... I mean, the biggest asshole on Earth.

    8. KS

      [chuckles] But-

    9. AS

      We're gonna, we're gonna have these people in position, okay?

    10. KS

      Yeah.

    11. AS

      And then I'm gonna rule the roost. I'm writing all the speeches. Y- y- you know, you can throw the shit through ChatGPT, and you say, "Who, who does this sound like?" It's the writings of Stephen Miller.

    12. KS

      Right.

    13. AS

      And so he's writing the speeches, he's promulgating the policy.

    14. KS

      How?

    15. AS

      How is he doing-

    16. KS

      'Cause he bought those call options.

    17. AS

      He bought those call options.

    18. KS

      Does Trump not see that? I mean, he is a-

    19. AS

      Well-

    20. KS

      Whatever he is, he's like an old crocodile.

    21. AS

      Well, the-

    22. KS

      He's gotta see that

    23. AS

      ... the, the only way Trump will see it is if you start saying, "Trump is the lapdog of Stephen Miller. The administration's being run by Stephen Miller." Trump will absolutely hate that, okay? And it's like when they, they were saying President Bannon-

    24. KS

      Bannon, mm

    25. AS

      ... when the President Bannon Time magazine cover came out, he got hit with a ray gun, knocked out of the administration, and so... But Miller is running the administration. He's running domestic policy, he's running international policy, he's writing the speeches about Venezuela and Greenland, and he is sitting at-

    26. KS

      Does he have any foe internally? Give us one insight into him. Have- you have spent time with him, so give us one insight.

    27. AS

      I'll just say, uh, the, uh, one of the... Look, I used to fight with the guy-

    28. KS

      Besides that he looks like a cartoon-

    29. AS

      Let me, let me, let me tell you something

    30. KS

      ... Nazi villain.

  5. 35:18 – 46:42

    Trump’s Health

    1. KS

      news. There's been speculation about Trump's health for months, and a new story in New York Magazine has him going on the record about it. Trump talks about his father's medical history, at one point struggling to come up with the word Alzheimer's, then insisting he does not have it. He also blames, uh, women's fingernails and rings for cuts on his hands. Trump's doctor says he did not have an MRI but an MRI-like scan of his chest and abdomen, I don't know what that is, and the results were, quote, "perfect." And, of course, Trump threatens to sue the ass off New York Magazine if he decides he doesn't like the story. I don't think New York Magazine, as one of the shareholders, gives a shit. So, uh, what do you think is really going on here with this-

    2. AS

      He's unwell

    3. KS

      ... he's got to face the h- the healthcare stuff, right? Because Biden didn't.

    4. AS

      He's physically-

    5. KS

      Presumably, that's strategic.

    6. AS

      I mean, listen, you know, uh, you're- you know, it's prima facie. He's unwell. You don't... You know, you know, um, if you, if, if, if someone gets busted on a football field, and the bone is sticking out of the uniform, you don't, you don't have to be an orthopedic surgeon to know that the bone is broken. You know, it's not like that. The guy is unwell.... Okay, he's unwell physically. He has an unsteady gait. They put the red carpet out for him in Davos. He wobbled down the carpet like he did in August with Putin. He's got bruises all over his hands, which looks like they're infusion bruises. They're not bumping up against a signing desk when you have that level of contusion on your hand. He looks terrible. If you look at the orange makeup, and you contrast it to the pallor of his hands, he looks absolutely terrible. I'm not a, I'm not a doctor. I'm just telling you, prima facie, he looks unwell. He's forgetful. He doesn't remember the word Alzheimer's. He doesn't remember people standing in front of him. Uh, he's getting interviewed, and they say, "You said the following." He said, "I never said that." Then they play the recording of him saying it, and but he looks like he's telling the truth, meaning he's demented in a way where-

    7. KS

      He doesn't remember it.

    8. AS

      Yeah.

    9. KS

      Yeah.

    10. AS

      He's just demented in a way he could probably pass a lie detector test, so-

    11. KS

      I mean, he's a liar, but it seems to me that he doesn't remember it-

    12. AS

      Yeah

    13. KS

      ... actually.

    14. AS

      Yeah, I'm sure he's lying knowingly, but I think there's also lies coming out of his mouth where he doesn't remember anymore. So, so also, the New York Times reported something which I think is very critical and very similar to Biden. They're managing his schedule for five hours a day. They said it's twelve to five, and then they, they pull him out of there. Or if he's got to go late night, they'll start him at five, and they'll end him at ten. Okay, he's an elderly man. He's about to turn 80. It's arguably the toughest job in the world. He hauls himself around. Okay, he's moving himself from national football game championships to Davos, back to Florida, back to Washington. He's moving himself around a lot, uh, and that in itself is tiring and dehydrating. And, and so, so to me, they're gonna lie about it like the Biden people lied about it, okay? That's just the facts of it. And, and this is why I'm saying Miller... advantage to Miller.

    15. KS

      Right.

    16. AS

      Because if Trump's got five... And, and again, whatever you think of Trump, I can tell you, if you show Trump a video of a guy getting innocently murdered-

    17. KS

      Mm-hmm

    18. AS

      ... even his egomaniac narcissism is like, "Shit, that's not good for me."

    19. KS

      Mm-hmm.

    20. AS

      He's looking at the video.

    21. KS

      Right.

    22. AS

      He may not have any compassion for that man or the man's family, but he's smart enough to know, "That ain't good for me."

    23. KS

      Right.

    24. AS

      Stephen Miller's not smart enough to know that. He's calling the guy an assassin and a domestic terrorist and all this idiocy. But the point about the illness that people should really focus on is that if he's only got five hours a day where he's present, the other 19 hours are going to Stephen Miller. Don't forget that.

    25. KS

      Right.

    26. AS

      Okay, Stephen Miller is writing the policy. Stephen Miller's talking to ICE. Stephen Miller's on the phone with Marco Rubio. Uh, you know, you know, the joke inside the White House is, "Hey, Stephen, we got a question for you. We're gonna make you a viceroy of Venezuela, but then when you get down there, where are you gonna deport the Venezuelans to?" [chuckles] Right, that's the joke inside the White House, and, of course, Miller looks at them, and he's all pissed, and he, he doesn't answer them.

    27. KS

      Right.

    28. AS

      Right? But, but, but, but the point is, Trump's weakness, there's a vacuum, and the void is being-

    29. KS

      Filled by a very horrible person.

    30. AS

      By a very evil... This MF, he couldn't get dog catcher confirmation, this MF, okay? And he's sitting there. We had a 250-year experiment with a republic with real checks and balances, and this guy, 'cause he was hated in high school, and he still wants to take it out on the rest of us-

  6. 46:42 – 1:01:10

    TikTok Makes a Deal

    1. KS

      back with more news. TikTok has dodged a potential ban and sealed the deal to create new American entity with investors like Oracle, 15%, and Silver Lake, also 15%, I believe. In the deal, ByteDance keeps a small stake, around 20%, but the algorithm will be retrained on US data to address national security concerns about Chinese control. Oracle's sort of been doing this for a while, by the way. Um, and by Oracle, I mean Larry Ellison. Uh, President Trump praised the deal and thanked China's President Xi for approving it, saying he hopes, uh, to be remembered by TikTok users for making it happen. But the service is enormously buggy in its first, uh, couple days out, with users reporting login issues and feed disruptions. Other people see a conspiracy theory in Larry Ellison trying to shut down anti, uh, ICE stuff. Uh, I, I, I'm not of that camp. I think that it's just buggy, and they're having problems. I, I, I, I wouldn't put it past them to do all manner of shitty things, but in this case, um, uh, I, I think it's just this, this is a shift over. Um, talk about this because I... There are also indications that TikTok's, uh, user base is declining, and that its, uh, its momentum is declining. Um, talk a little bit about this because, uh, a lot of people are worried about it becoming a propaganda tool. I am less worried because I feel like it has, uh... I know I'm gonna get a call from [chuckles] Zhenya Muchin in a second, but I feel like it has a MySpace vibe, um, to it, but your thoughts. It's big. It's still enormous, but I don't- I think it- I think Meta-

    2. AS

      Well

    3. KS

      ... has the momentum with Instagram and Threads, et cetera.

    4. AS

      Well, well, a couple things. I mean, they, they've neutered TikTok, okay? So it'd be like taking your dog to get spayed. You know, the, you know, the, the virility of TikTok is over.

    5. KS

      Yeah.

    6. AS

      Uh, and so, you know, maybe it'll work, uh, and maybe that's a good investment for these people. I don't know. But here's what I-

    7. KS

      They got it at a discount.

    8. AS

      But, but here, here's what I do know: I do know when I was in the White House for that very short period of time, the intelligence stuff was TikTok was weapons-grade-... intelligence gathering, and it was weapons-grade crowd propaganda. Crowd propaganda. Thirty percent of the white males below the age of twenty-one, they don't think the moon landing happened. You know, fifteen percent of the white males below thirty think Osama Bin Laden is a, uh, freedom warrior. Uh, all this stuff being generated by the algorithm on TikTok and all this stuff of fomenting s- conspiracy theories, which cause people to doubt and distrust their government and cause them to doubt and distrust the institutions of our democracy. All of that worked to the point where the court said, "Shut it down," the Biden administration said, "Shut it down," and it was getting shut down. But, uh, some of the owners of TikTok had a lot of money. They gave the money to Donald Trump, and Trump defied the court orders, okay? And he kept TikTok open. And so we're sitting here now where I don't think the secret sauce of TikTok, despite what they're saying, is gonna get replicated, okay? It's not gonna get transferred. Uh, we do know, and we do know in the deal, and I believe this is the case because intelligence agencies in this country still have teeth, even though Trump, you know, I guess, is uber alles. But the intelligence agencies are telling us that ByteDance is walled off from the information now. They own nineteen point nine percent of the company, and they're not gonna get the information from the US anymore. So they have other backdoors by the way, Chinese intelligence-

    9. KS

      Sure do.

    10. AS

      -has other backdoors, so I'm not worried about Chinese intelligence gathering. Uh, but I think this has been spayed, uh, to use a veterinarian analogy, and I think these guys are gonna wake up five years from now. It may not be one hundred percent MySpace, but it could be like a Yahoo that was, like, very prominent in 1998-

    11. KS

      Mm-hmm. I agree.

    12. AS

      -is still with us in 2026, but really isn't relevant to the way it was once relevant.

    13. KS

      Yeah.

    14. AS

      That's my guess.

    15. KS

      I think the energy has dragged out.

    16. AS

      That, that's my guess with TikTok.

    17. KS

      Yeah, I would agree. I think the energy is dragged out of it. And, and it, you know, it's still-- The question is, what's effective as these things? And, and as much you know, I have so much disdain for [chuckles] Mark Zuckerberg, although he has an opportunity... You see, I was thinking this. He-- Remember when Gates, everyone hated Gates, he was Darth Vader, et cetera. Mark has an opportunity to turn himself around. That's my feeling. With these products that are quite good, obviously, he had a real l- a real fuck up on, on, uh, meta- the metaverse and spent a lot of money and wasted it. Here's one thing I love: This guy spent fifty-six billion dollars on a mistake, and then all these tech people complain about the government misusing funds. They misuse funds all the time. It's their own money, but that's fine. Um, it's actually shareholder money. Um, I, I have a-- If he wanted to, Zuckerberg, to me, especially with Musk behaving like, you know, a cartoon villain, um, has an opportunity, especially with these products, Threads and Instagram, et cetera, to really dominate in a way that he already does. But I don't know. I just-- I have this notion that there's... I- if he decided to, to stop being such a ridiculous figure, uh, that he could certainly revive himself. And that's not an opening for him, but I think the hiring of Dina Powell was interesting. I thought, you know, a very smooth operator, uh, as you know. It just is an interesting time, but TikTok, I think, really is. You're right. It's, I think it's, it's not on the upswing, that's for sure, when these guys are buying it. Although, again, they got it at a discount, so who cares?

    18. AS

      Well, you know, I'll say, I'll say something that, uh, people... You know, it's a little contrarian, so just hear me out for a second, okay? I think that, uh, prima facie, you put Dana White on the board because you think he's a Trump guy, and you're sending a message to Trump that you're no longer gonna bash Trump. You put Dina on the board. Her husband's a senator from Pennsylvania. Uh, she was so-- I mean, she was on the board, but you put her in the, in the, that presidency, uh, vice chairman position, uh, sends a message to the right. But I'm gonna say something about both those people. I think they're less Trumpy than people think.

    19. KS

      Oh, absolutely.

    20. AS

      Da- Dana has already told people, "I'm done with the politics. I'll, I'll do the UFC fight with Trump on the fourteenth of June, but I'm done with the politics." Dana is more of a libertarian, okay? And Dina, if you really follow her life, she is a Trump whisperer today, but she's really more of a garden variety-

    21. KS

      She is.

    22. AS

      -and so was David, by the way, a Republican.

    23. KS

      Very.

    24. AS

      So, you know, there could come a moment here, one, two, three years out, where Zuckerberg is influenced by these people, okay? And you could be right. And so, so I think the prima facie look is, oh, he's putting Trump lackeys in place to calm down Trump.

    25. KS

      No, I don't believe that. I agree with you.

    26. AS

      But they're not Trump lackeys, if you really know their personalities. And I-- Listen, I don't, I don't know Dana. I, I, I've friends-- I've met Dana a few times, but I, I know Dina very, very well. David and I know each other very well. Dina and I have worked together. Uh, and you know, and she was polite enough to call me and give me the heads-up, uh, the Sunday night before the job was r- announced, you know? And so she-- And she's a special person. I like her, and I think that this could be a positive for Zuckerberg.

    27. KS

      Just interesting choices. I, I was like, everyone's like, Trump thing. I'm like, "This is not what's happening here." It's, it, it, it isn't. I mean, she... Just to be clear, uh, Dina left the White House, uh, early in the first term, uh, and I think probably Charlottesville and other issues were impactful to her in lots of ways. But I do think it's much more complicated. I thought it was an interesting and probably the best move of Zuckerberg to bring himself back into the light. [chuckles] I guess he wasn't ever gone.

    28. AS

      Listen, listen, David Salomon-

    29. KS

      You know what?

    30. AS

      -Lloyd Blankfein, there's a reason why Dina was at the top of the food chain in and around the hoop. She's got good judgment, she's a very smart person, and she also has good diplomacy skills, okay?

  7. 1:01:10 – 1:08:32

    Wins and Fails

    1. KS

      uh, Anthony, let's hear some wins and fails. You go first.

    2. AS

      Okay, so you're not gonna like this one-

    3. KS

      All right.

    4. AS

      But, uh, but the win of the week is actually Elon Musk, and I'm gonna tell you why.

    5. KS

      Okay.

    6. AS

      He shows up with a haircut. He looks like he lost a little bit of weight.

    7. KS

      Oh, God.

    8. AS

      They give him 31 minutes of airtime at the World Economic Forum, a place that he disdained and criticized woefully for a decade. His buddy, Larry Fink, who's now the interim chairman, brings him on stage-

    9. KS

      I saw that

    10. AS

      ... And he was articulate, and he explained the vision for these data centers up in space, and he was the normal Elon, and he was the aspirational Elon. And you could like him or dislike him, but that's the win for the week.

    11. KS

      All right, the only thing I'm saying is a lot of his predictions, he makes them up. You know that. Like, you could track them. At this point, he's said it so much, "I'm gonna have robots in your house in a year," and then 10 years goes.

    12. AS

      I understand that-

    13. KS

      So-

    14. AS

      ... but, but I'm talking about imagery, and you know-

    15. KS

      All right, okay

    16. AS

      ... the world is about imagery. I think you want... Do you want the loss, or you wanna go for the win here?

    17. KS

      It's all right. Go ahead. I'll give it to you. I'll give it to you.

    18. AS

      Okay. All right, all right. Do you wanna hear the-

    19. KS

      I heard his robots are cool.

    20. AS

      The loss.

    21. KS

      Mm-hmm.

    22. AS

      The loss. The loss is actually Donald Trump. Now, Neil, Neil, Neil, Neil Ferguson said that he won Davos, uh, and he explained this MAGA-esque way that he won Davos, but he actually lost Davos. Carney, Carney won Davos. He would've been number two on the win category for me, although Carney has a har- gonna have a harder time because of where he sits north of the American border. But, but, but, but Donald Trump lost this week. He lost because he looked like an imbecile on Greenland. He lost because the marginal dollar is now moving away from the United States because of his imbecility. And the situation in ICE, uh, and the situation, the tragedy in Minnesota, Trump has lost that, too, because he's smart enough to know that the public opinion... He's negative 17 on ICE and immigration in the United States, and he's got a 36% approval rating. But when people ask their friends about Trump, they don't like what's happening to their neighbors, and so Trump is losing right now. Uh, and we're not even addressing his health issues. So that's the win, and that's the loss. Despite the appearance that Trump, quote-unquote, "won," and all the MAGA people like Butlick would say that he won, he did not win. He lost.

    23. KS

      Butlick. [laughing] I love you.

    24. AS

      We call him Nutlick, too. I cannot believe it's the same person that I was talking to at Davos 10 years ago.

    25. KS

      Well, the other guy, the Kevin Hassett, is the one that all the economists call me about, saying, "What in the world happened? Did he get a brain implant or something?"

    26. AS

      Yeah, yeah.

    27. KS

      Uh, same th-

    28. AS

      Kevin I feel more sorry for, but, I mean, you know, H- H- Howard knows better.

    29. KS

      Well, yeah.

    30. AS

      You know?

Episode duration: 1:08:32

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