Kara Swisher Calls Out Elon Musk and Big Tech’s “Petty, Angry" People | Pivot

Kara Swisher 0:00 These are the richest people on earth, and they're so manifestly unhappy. They just can't shut the fuck up. And what tiny, petty, angry, unhappy people they all are, every single one of them. [upbeat music] Hi, everyone. This is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Kara Swisher.

Scott Galloway 0:22 And I'm Scott Galloway.

Kara Swisher 0:24 Ted Turner, the media mogul, CNN founder, who helped create the 24-hour news cycle, has died at 87. Turner was also a major philanthropist, making a record $1 billion in donation to establish the United Nations Foundation. He was a different kind of billionaire, you know, although he was also the... He was called the Mouth of the South. Um, beyond media and philanthropy, Turner pursued countless other passions, from his Montana Grill, his eco con- this is a eco-conscious restaurant chain, being y- named Yachtsmen of the Year multiple times. He was Larry Ellison before Larry Ellison. Uh, he announced he had Lewy body dementia, progressive brain disorder, in 2018. Jane Fonda, one of Turner's ex-wives who remained a close friend, remembered him saying, "Men like Ted aren't supposed to express need and vulnerability. That was Tr- Ted's greatest strength, I believe." And he was. And she, I recently interviewed her, and she had told me he was quite ill. Um, I, I talked to him a little bit for my books on AOL. He was real mad about the sale and everything else. Um, except that when he sold the company, he had that famous quote where, where he said, um, "This deal was better than sex." Do you remember that? He was, he always had something kooky to say-

Scott Galloway 1:32 Mm-hmm

Kara Swisher 1:32 ... at any one moment. And I, you know, a lot of people are like, "Oh, he's the reason we have terrible cable." His vision of cable was not this, what has happened. So I, I sort of push back against that because his idea was that you can get news to, to sort of democratize the news a little more from the big three. And so I consider him a real important, his legacy very important, even though, even though it sort of, you know, morphed into this scream fest that it has become. But his was, it was, you know, it was, it was real news. And, and I happened to be with Christiane Amanpour, who got there pretty early, not right away at the beginning, and she had nothing but great things to say about his tenure when he was sort of do- real entrepreneurial news, news and other things, you know, and a very, a very generous and charitable person at the same time, and also funny and weird and interesting. Your thoughts?

Scott Galloway 2:25 Yeah, this guy is, you know, he kind of defined the term that you don't hear anymore, a captain of industry, and the term captain. He was the, uh... Something people don't know about him is I think he may be the only billionaire who was also an elite world-class athlete. He won the America's Cup.

Kara Swisher 2:42 Yeah, he did.

Scott Galloway 2:43 And-

Kara Swisher 2:43 He was, yeah

Scott Galloway 2:44 ... there are just not very many billionaires who've reached the pinnacle of a sport. And, um, maybe Roger Staubach, is he a billionaire now? Anyways, but he built CNN from nothing. It, it's really interesting how it emerged. Uh, so news when we were growing up was a public service, and that is ABC and CBS sold a shit ton of ads from Tang and Chevrolet running against All in the Family and MASH and The Partridge Family and The Brady Bunch, and they felt that it was a public service to have 23 minutes of news and seven minutes of commercial in this money-losing thing called the local news. And he said he correctly figured out that there was money in a market for 24 by 7 news, and it was very scrappy. If you look, go back, it wasn't very well produced, and he s- he started the whole thing. Now, where it came off the tracks was, quite frankly, with Rupert Murdoch recognizing that the part of the news... They made an observation, and that is KABC News back in the '70s had something called Point/Counterpoint. And SNL-

Kara Swisher 3:49 Oh, yeah

Scott Galloway 3:49 ... used to mock it. You know, Jane-

Kara Swisher 3:51 Yeah

Scott Galloway 3:51 ... you ignorant slut.

Kara Swisher 3:52 Jane, you ignorant slut. That's our show pretty much, but go ahead.

Scott Galloway 3:54 Anyways, so, um, uh, so they recognized something called Point/Counterpoint, and it was Bruce Herschensohn and Jim Tunney, and they would start yelling at each other. And someone did the analysis and s- and found out that's what people were tuning in for.

Kara Swisher 4:13 Yeah, I know.

Scott Galloway 4:14 And that was really the key, and arguably the most dangerous insight that Rupert Murdoch-

Kara Swisher 4:21 Yeah

Scott Galloway 4:21 ... made.

Kara Swisher 4:21 Yeah, of course

Scott Galloway 4:22 And that is-

Kara Swisher 4:23 With media with it

Scott Galloway 4:23 ... no, this isn't about balanced new- It's enough news to keep, to give, to create a halo of legitimacy. And quite frankly, CNN was guilty of it, too, Crossfire.

Kara Swisher 4:33 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 4:33 And CNN now has a show like that where they all just start-

Kara Swisher 4:36 Tucker Carlson

Scott Galloway 4:36 ... yelling at each other.

Kara Swisher 4:37 That's where it started.

Scott Galloway 4:37 And then Tucker-

Kara Swisher 4:38 That's where Tucker Carlson started. [laughs]

Scott Galloway 4:39 Yeah, and, and-

Kara Swisher 4:40 Michael Kinsley

Scott Galloway 4:41 ... remember Tucker and Michael just going at it?

Kara Swisher 4:43 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 4:44 Um, and that seemed civil compared to what-

Kara Swisher 4:47 Yeah, it is. It actually, when you watch it, it's actually is.

Scott Galloway 4:50 It seems patrician. [laughs] It seems-

Kara Swisher 4:52 It's intelligent. It's intelligent.

Scott Galloway 4:54 It has digressed and has become something that is, I don't know, it's a longer talk show. Let's get back to Ted Turner. He gave away a billion dollars. He [laughs] actually gave away a billion dollars to the UN. I would argue when the UN actually meant something. Uh, something also, people constantly ask me for male role models for kind of a positive or aspirational form of masculinity. I think Ted Turner is a great role model. One-

Kara Swisher 5:16 Yeah, I would agree

Scott Galloway 5:16 ... let's just go, let's just go to the male stuff. Very aggressive. Also-

Kara Swisher 5:21 Very

Scott Galloway 5:22 ... politically incorrect. When Time Warner, when Time Warner was acquired-

Kara Swisher 5:27 The sex thing, yeah

Scott Galloway 5:28 ... by CNN, Gerald Levin introduced the whole thing and said, "And now I want to introduce my best friend, Ted Turner." And Ted stood up and said, "Best friend? I've never been to your fucking house."

Kara Swisher 5:38 Yeah. [laughs] He was great.

Scott Galloway 5:38 And then my favorite was when he did an all hands, and it was Ash Wednesday, and there were a bunch of people in the audience with ashes on their forehead. He's like, "Shouldn't you be working at Fox?" I mean-

Kara Swisher 5:48 Oh. [laughs]

Scott Galloway 5:49 The guy was-

Kara Swisher 5:49 He was funny

Scott Galloway 5:50 ... I think there's a certain charm in a world now where everything is so, I don't know.

Kara Swisher 5:56 It's, it was a different time period. He wasn't malevolent in that program.

Scott Galloway 5:58 But he was, he was charitable. He was visionary. He was aggressive.

Kara Swisher 6:02 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 6:02 Fourteen grandchildrenWith 14 or 12 grandchildren

Kara Swisher 6:06 Yeah, married to Jane Fonda

Scott Galloway 6:07 And then-

Kara Swisher 6:07 She still odds him. She told me she was, she still adores him

Scott Galloway 6:09 An environmentalist, and also took his seat and his privilege and his wealth as an obligation to serve and connect nations with each other. He was very serious about uniting nations and trying to promote world peace.

Kara Swisher 6:25 He was.

Scott Galloway 6:25 He saw his wealth and his seat as an obligation, that he was, he was optimizing for service, not for attention.

Kara Swisher 6:34 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 6:34 He's a really-

Kara Swisher 6:35 So I, I would, I urge people, if they're blaming what cable is now on him, not to.

Scott Galloway 6:40 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 6:40 It's not what he... That was not his vision. I was around for that, and it became that, and it was not his. He, he, he may have created the 24. And they did take advantage. Remember, the thing that really sent them over the top was that, the girl down the well? Remember the girl down the well story?

Scott Galloway 6:55 Oh, yeah. Wow.

Kara Swisher 6:56 That's what, that's, that's what Christiane was. She's like, "Oh, that's the thing that really got people watching."

Scott Galloway 7:01 That and the Iraq War.

Kara Swisher 7:02 Yeah. And but there, you saw m-moments of that, where... Remember the Studs God, Arthur, Arthur Kent? Like, it started to f- turn. It st- That's when you started to sort of see the beginnings of kind of the circus acts of these cable stations. And I was thinking that as I was, you know, I went on Sky News and BBC and stuff like that, and, like, the constant hunt of, and I think it's a very serious, I'm worried about Hantavirus, but the, the, the constant, "Let's go back to the cruise ship. Let's go back to the..." And I was like, this, "Actually, we're in a war in Iran. I feel like perhaps we need to head over there and take a look at what's ha- the cruising going on in the Strait of Hormuz." But it, it, uh, he is a, he is a great legacy, and the jet-

Scott Galloway 7:43 Remember Bernard Shaw?

Kara Swisher 7:44 Bernard Shaw, amazing

Scott Galloway 7:45 Daniel Schorr.

Kara Swisher 7:46 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 7:47 Oh, my dad's favorite-

Kara Swisher 7:48 What?

Scott Galloway 7:48 -for the wrong reasons, Bobby Batista. Oh, yeah, Bobby.

Kara Swisher 7:52 Well, that was great. It was g- it was-

Scott Galloway 7:54 God, I grew up on CNN

Kara Swisher 7:55 Yeah, and Christiane, yeah, so

Scott Galloway 7:56 And also, I genuinely believe a decent administration would be CNN anchors. Dana Bash should be president.

Kara Swisher 8:05 Oh. [laughs]

Scott Galloway 8:05 She is smart, she is elegant, and she could smother you in your sleep. She's got that edge to her which every president needs.

Kara Swisher 8:10 [laughs] Okay.

Scott Galloway 8:10 If you crossed her.

Kara Swisher 8:12 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 8:12 Uh, uh, Anderson should be vice president.

Kara Swisher 8:15 Okay.

Scott Galloway 8:15 Any problems with the pope, he just goes over there and just talks about grief.

Kara Swisher 8:18 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 8:18 Everybody loves him, competent enough.

Kara Swisher 8:21 Yeah. [laughs] Okay.

Scott Galloway 8:21 Fareed Zakaria, Secretary of State, hands down.

Kara Swisher 8:24 Okay.

Scott Galloway 8:24 Hands down.

Kara Swisher 8:25 All right. All right.

Scott Galloway 8:26 Uh, Michael Smerconish, he could be, uh, Secretary of Commerce or Labor. Th- th- that, tell me that c- tell me that cabinet-

Kara Swisher 8:33 Do I get anything? I'm a contributor. Do I get, like, an ambassadorship to something?

Scott Galloway 8:37 Oh, you're ambassador to Guyana. We've already decided this here.

Kara Swisher 8:40 Okay, we're gonna, we're gonna [laughs] move on because-

Scott Galloway 8:41 You're saving me from myself here

Kara Swisher 8:43 ... I'm saving you from yourself. Because it's interesting, I don't think Ted Turner, he didn't like the AOL Time Warner deal. I, that I did speak to him about. First, he was like, "It was better than sex. The deal was the best thing I ever did, better than sex." And then afterwards, he, like, totally publicly decried it publicly. And o-one thing that, uh, um, Barry Diller, I think, told him was, like, "If you sell your house and they wreck, they wreck the patio, you need to shut up. You sold the house." And I, I, I didn't necessarily agree with him on that, but it was, it, it, he definitely had much regrets, and he probably wouldn't be thrilled where, from the latest numbers from Warner Brothers Discovery,

Kara Swisher 9:17 the company reported a net loss of two point nine billion in the latest quarter. That's essentially a two point eight billion dollar termination fee tied to the Netflix deal. Paramount agreed to cover the cost, but the expense still sits on Warner's books until the deal officially closes. For people who don't see why that was that big of a loss, nonetheless, the first quarter revenue was down one percent year over year, and ad revenue slid seven percent. Total streaming revenue did rise nine percent, largely by HBO Max went international. Um, Paramount had slightly better news to report, beating revenue and earnings expectations. In the first quarter, Paramount added, uh, seven hundred thousand subscribers during the quarter, helping streaming revenue grow by seventeen percent year over year. The company's film studio did well, with revenue up eleven percent. Um, and they said they're making great progress on the Warner Brothers deal, with late Q3 closing still on track. There's still some pushback to it. Um, a-at the same time, I'm gonna add one more earnings. Disney's under the first new CEO, Josh D'Amaro. The numbers were strong, with revenue climbing seven percent to twenty-five, uh, billion. Operating income across Disney's entertainment, sports, and experiences division beat expectations. The company says it expects earnings per share to grow twelve percent. That's solid in the fiscal year. In one weak spot, um, a dip in attendance at its US theme parks, probably due to fewer international pro- travelers. They're gonna see repercussions from gas prices, I'm guessing, and other prices. But it's only down one percent. Maybe the next quarter is where you're gonna see it over the summer. That, that will be the real indicator there. Um, thoughts on, on the Warner and everything? They're just sort of bumping along, these companies.

Scott Galloway 10:51 So Warner Brothers, uh, uh, one seventeen adjusted GAAP versus estimates of nine cents, which is actually pretty good. They had a forty-five percent beat. Operating margin was down but are mostly flat. The linear networks continue to bleed. The revenue fell eight percent, uh, with domestic pay TV subscribers down ten percent, and free cash flow was four hundred seventy-six million, and net leverage sits at three point four x. Uh, the Paramount deal is expected to close Q3, which will form a company with sixty-nine billion in pro forma revenue. Like, if there's a book, if you wrote a book called The Worst Acquisitions in History, you could just call the book Time Warner. I- is-

Kara Swisher 11:31 Yeah

Scott Galloway 11:32 ... i-i- every-

Kara Swisher 11:32 True. [laughs]

Scott Galloway 11:33 They are at the center of the... I mean, three of the five worst acquisitions in history all involve Time Warner. It's just in-

Kara Swisher 11:38 Yeah, AT&T

Scott Galloway 11:39 It's just in-

Kara Swisher 11:40 AOL, right?

Scott Galloway 11:41 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 11:42 I mean, it's-

Scott Galloway 11:42 And this one I think will go down as-

Kara Swisher 11:44 Mm-hmm

Scott Galloway 11:44 ... in terms of shareholder, uh, value destruction. Um, Paramount posted a clean beat, and streaming turned its first real profit. Revenue of seven, uh, point three five billion versus seven point two eight. EPS of twenty-three cents versus fifteen cents expected. I mean, companies are just, it's just incredible. Companies are just blowing away their earnings. Their direct-to-consumer revenue was up eleven percent.Paramount Plus revenue up 17%. I wonder how much of that is Landman. They added 700,000 net subscribers to reach, um, 79.6 million, uh, in total. Direct-to-consumer EBITDA improved to 251 million. Uh, TV media revenue fell 6% to 3.7 billion as cord cutting continues. And Paramount has nearly doubled its film slate for 2026 versus 2025 since closing the Skydance deal last August, which to their credit-

Kara Swisher 12:34 Yeah, he's been promising that. He's been promising that.

Scott Galloway 12:36 Yeah, everyone's been saying, "Oh, they're gonna gut Hollywood," and they're coming out swinging, and they're doubling their film slate.

Kara Swisher 12:41 The thing is, is it gonna make money, right? That's the issue. Let's see what happens-

Scott Galloway 12:44 What happens, yeah

Kara Swisher 12:45 ... when they're making these movies. So let's just wait until they... You can, you can spend the money. I mean, that's what rich people do, but let's see if they make it.

Scott Galloway 12:52 A-

Kara Swisher 12:52 If they have some hits, if they have some hits.

Scott Galloway 12:54 And so Josh Demaro's first earning call as CEO reported a, a really strong beat. Shares gained roughly 7% after the report. But here's the thing, a, a, a hundred percent of this beat, the credit goes to Bob Iger. [laughs] You-- Someone doesn't impact earnings two weeks after they take the CEO job. This beat was really ringing the bell for, for Bob Iger. Revenue at $25.2 billion versus $24.8 expected. Earnings a buck fifty-seven versus one forty-nine expected. Streaming operating income jumped 88% to $582, uh, uh, uh, million. And Disney's streaming margins broke into the double digits at almost 11%. Their streaming revenue hit five and a half billion, up 13%, driven by price hikes. And Disney's no-- Disney no longer reports subscriber numbers, which is a shame. But, um, their experiences that you reference, uh, was up 7%, b- which must be an increase in prices, 'cause as you mentioned, um-

Kara Swisher 14:01 Yeah. Yeah. Numbers are down in the parks

Scott Galloway 14:02 ... attendance is down. And they also have raised their buyback target, similar to what Apple did last week, and guided for tw- I think Disney, I think Disney is a, is a buy. And Demaro is... You know, he came out of the, the parks, um, and which grew nearly 40% in revenue under his watch. And he called Disney Plus the digital centerpiece of the company. On Wednesday's earnings, he flagged fuel and consumer spending. Dana Walden, who I know you know, named president and chief creative officer in-

Kara Swisher 14:33 That was an important keep for tho- that company, the keeping her, 'cause she was the CEO. She was the top contender.

Scott Galloway 14:38 Well, not only that, they're all... I mean, quite frankly, a lot of these people are probably... I mean, this is the challenge when your stock is below where it was ten years ago. You have to get the most talented people in the room and say, "I'm gonna issue new options, and please stick around." 'Cause you gotta think a lot of these people are looking at-

Kara Swisher 14:57 So what is their option?

Scott Galloway 14:59 Uh, yeah, like, because-

Kara Swisher 15:00 Producers. That's a lot harder now. You can't be as good a pr- you can't do those sweet, sweet deals anymore.

Scott Galloway 15:05 Yeah, but if you're a Disney, if you're a talented Disney executive-

Kara Swisher 15:09 Yeah

Scott Galloway 15:09 ... you could absolutely land, uh, you know-

Kara Swisher 15:12 I would stay. See, now I would stay.

Scott Galloway 15:14 Well-

Kara Swisher 15:14 Because you have power.

Scott Galloway 15:15 I agree. And your options-

Kara Swisher 15:17 You're one of the last pieces of the, you know, pieces of wood floating. I don't know. I just thought it was-

Scott Galloway 15:22 Oh, that's interesting. I hadn't thought of that analogy. I like that. Um-

Kara Swisher 15:24 It was from The Devil Wears Prada 2, but go ahead.

Scott Galloway 15:27 I thought it was from the Titanic, isn't it?

Kara Swisher 15:28 It is, but it was, she just said that.

Scott Galloway 15:30 Penelope.

Kara Swisher 15:30 She goes, "We just got on the last stupid-"

Scott Galloway 15:31 I was wondering how long it was gonna be before you mentioned The Devil Wears Prada 2.

Kara Swisher 15:34 Just saying. It's killing it. Still killing it.

Scott Galloway 15:35 Yeah, no, it's great.

Kara Swisher 15:36 Just great.

Scott Galloway 15:36 Let's go over every movie that's actually making money. Um-

Kara Swisher 15:39 Uh, it is making money.

Scott Galloway 15:40 Yeah, it's ma- it's making a ton. It's, it's, it's gonna change the world.

Kara Swisher 15:43 You've yet to see it.

Scott Galloway 15:43 Lawrence of Arabia meets The Sound of Music meets The Sixth Sense.

Kara Swisher 15:47 All right. Let's move along.

Scott Galloway 15:47 But Disney stock is down more than 10% year to date, despite, despite back-to-back earnings beats. I don't know if it's because everyone's giving up on traditional media or because AI is sucking all the oxygen out of e-every other company, uh, of the other four hundred and ninety in the S&P. But I think Disney actually right now is a really good buy, and I wouldn't be surprised if it's put in play in the next three to six months either by-

Kara Swisher 16:13 You keep saying that. By whom? To Apple? To... Because Apple was looking at Perplexity allegedly.

Scott Galloway 16:18 Uh, an activist.

Kara Swisher 16:21 Oh.

Scott Galloway 16:21 An activist comes in-

Kara Swisher 16:22 Okay

Scott Galloway 16:22 ... and says, "You need to cut 20% of your staff, or you need to put the company up for sale," or-

Kara Swisher 16:25 Right, which they did with, with Iger. I mean, Iger went through that, right? Several times, I think.

Scott Galloway 16:30 Yeah, but Iger had so much credibility, he was able to back. Th-this stock-

Kara Swisher 16:33 So it, it's weak 'cause this is a new CEO.

Scott Galloway 16:35 Disney has this unbelievable franchise. Or it might be corporate restructuring. Go good bank, bad bank. Spin out the parks into its own business. And, um-

Kara Swisher 16:44 They decided not to, as you know. They were gonna get rid of ABC at one point, and then they decided to keep ESPN. I think that's one of Demaro's first decisions.

Scott Galloway 16:51 And an activist will argue that their decisions have been really poor because this company has probably the greatest collection of IP in the world, a booming parks business, and yet the stock is trading below where it was in twenty sixteen. This is sort of... I gotta think there's a lot of activist out there.

Kara Swisher 17:07 Which activist? The same old sort of unpleasant, like, Permutter activist?

Scott Galloway 17:10 No. If I had to bet on any firm that shows up forcefully at Dignified, it would be Elliott. Um, and by the way, I don't know anything. I haven't talked to them about this. The, but I wouldn't be surprised. Unfortunately, it'll probably be someone like, um, Peltz, but he's more consumer. I wouldn't put it past-

Kara Swisher 17:28 Peltz was in the last one, I think, with Permutter. Remember?

Scott Galloway 17:30 I don't know. I think if Netflix stock was, was... I don't... I, I think Netflix and Disney, uh, w- this merger be-- The merger between Netflix and Disney could never happen under an administration that didn't have its, that didn't have a FTC or a DOJ that was in a slumber. So if there was any desire to do that, it would-- then now would be the time. And if you had-

Kara Swisher 17:49 No, except Brenda is not, uh, he doesn't like Disney. It's in his, it's in his sights.

Scott Galloway 17:55 Who doesn't like Disney?

Kara Swisher 17:56 Brendan Carr. Or Brenda. I call him Brenda.

Scott Galloway 17:59 Yeah, but, uh, well-

Kara Swisher 18:00 He's specifically called out Disney, like, by name, saying he doesn't like what they're up to.

Scott Galloway 18:04 Yeah, but he doesn't get to decide antitrust. It goes-

Kara Swisher 18:07 Right. Yeah

Scott Galloway 18:07 ... it's the... I mean, I guess, could he lead it?

Kara Swisher 18:11 The bottom line is Disney and Netflix right now, Disney is cheap right now.

Scott Galloway 18:15 Netflix and Disney in, in a windup would be game over. If you took N- Netflix's IP, including Wednesday, Stranger Things, Bridgerton, and used it to go vertical and create experiences in parks, I just think it'd be, I just think it'd be incredible.

Kara Swisher 18:31 It's big.

Scott Galloway 18:31 By the way, I, I... It shouldn't happen. It would be too much concentration of media.

Kara Swisher 18:35 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 18:35 But from a... I would buy shares in that company.

Kara Swisher 18:38 Yeah, absolutely.

Scott Galloway 18:39 Um.

Kara Swisher 18:39 I don't think it'll happen.

Scott Galloway 18:40 Uh, you're probably right.

Kara Swisher 18:40 Although, I don't know why it shouldn't, because they have a lot of companies to go up against these tech companies, but I don't know. Anyway, it'll be, well, interesting to see. It was fine. It was perfectly fine. It was like, okay. It's so funny, you know, when Ted Turner, when that deal happened, I mean, media, that was the top for media, wasn't it? Like, when AOL Time Warner happened, I think. It was like they were running the fucking show. They were the kings of the road, and then they weren't. Like, it's been a downward, downward, downward slide for traditional media.

Scott Galloway 19:09 The fall of traditional media for me is embodied by when I first moved to New York in 2000, and like all single people in their 30s, uh, we would pile eight people into a house in Bridgehampton, and every weekend was a mad scramble to see who we knew at Condé Nast, who, uh, knew s- what magazine was throwing the most fabulous party in the Hamptons, and, and whether it was Details or Vogue, and the job, the m- masters of the universe were these, was the creatives and the business people working at Condé Nast magazines-

Kara Swisher 19:50 Yep

Scott Galloway 19:50 ... in the magazine group.

Kara Swisher 19:51 It's true, and in the journalism business, I have to tell you, I was, like, the internet person, and they, like, treated me like shit. Like, they were like, "Oh, you're part of the internet."

Scott Galloway 20:01 Tech was born.

Kara Swisher 20:02 You know, and you're... No, the in- no, it was Ponzi scheme. It was Ponzi scheme. Oh, it's nothing. It's gonna, it's all a bunch of... It's gonna go away, and the media reporters were such snot bags. [laughs] I have to tell you, they just were, and I was like, "I don't, I think you're in trouble." I was... And they were like, "You don't know. They're gonna run the show," and media, media, media, and I was like, "Well, I think they've got some vulnerabilities there." But they... I, I'll never f- it was the same thing. It was sort of a, it was... Uh, well, too bad. But that's what happened. Anyway, um, let's go on a quick break. When we come back, Anthropic gets into bed with Elon and SpaceX. Mm. Lock that metaphor. [gentle music] Support for this show comes from Harvey AI. The future of law is agentic, not just tools that assist, but AI agents that navigate complex matters. Harvey was built on legal agents that analyze, draft, and execute with precision, but great lawyers don't just complete tasks. They strategize. That's why Harvey created agents that can do the work from end to end. They build a plan, pull from secure data sources, run sub-agents in parallel, and draft the work product ready for your review, so you can delegate the work and own the judgment. Harvey agents support work across fund formation, litigation, regulatory compliance, M&A, and more, adapting to the complexity of each matter and the way your team actually works. Trusted by more than 60% of the AM Law 100 and leading Fortune 500 legal teams, Harvey is the AI operating system designed specifically for legal work, helping teams move faster with greater precision and confidence. Harvey AI tailored for law. Learn more at harvey.ai.

Kara Swisher 21:40 Scott, we're back. Anthropic CEO Dario Amodei says the company planned for 10X growth this year but is now seeing growth closer to 80X, creating a massive need for more computing power. Enter SpaceX, or rather SpaceX AI. SpaceX acquired xAI back in February, but Elon Musk has just revealed xAI will be dissolved, and its AI products will be part of the SpaceX AI brand, of course, 'cause everybody left, and he, he didn't, it didn't have quite the traction that he had hoped, so he's, as I said, folding it right in. Everything's gonna get folded. Tesla's next. Under the new deal, Anthropic will get compute power with, uh, SpaceX AI data center in Memphis, the one that's polluting people, as it works to keep up with surging demand. Everybody needs power. Get real turnaround for Elon, who earlier called Anthropic evil. He's now saying he was impressed after meeting with senior executive, adding, "No one set off my evil detector." [scoffs] Again, look in the fucking mirror, dude. Um, so i- is this the enemy of my enemy is my friend because of ChatGPT? This is an interesting thing. I mean, obviously Elon's, has not had the success he had ho- he'd hoped to dominate, and it's all about his beef with Sam Altman, but in this case, he's, this is what he's doing. I would, I would be careful if I was Dario in general, but, um, I, I think he's savvy enough to deal with Elon, though. Um, and he seems to have, have enough pushback. Um, any thoughts on this?

Scott Galloway 23:03 Uh, I'd rather talk about me in the aughts and reminisce a little bit longer. Is that okay?

Kara Swisher 23:07 [laughs] Just for a second.

Scott Galloway 23:09 So, so I started-

Kara Swisher 23:10 Okay, but I want thoughts on this.

Scott Galloway 23:11 In 2000, I had... So I'm moving to New York from San Francisco. I had just been abused, ridden, ridden hard, and put away wet by Sequoia Capital, kicked off the board of the, kicked out of the band I started, kicked off of the board of the company I started, just, like, g- got divor- just, like, I, I just wanted, I wanted to never go back to San Francisco the rest of my life.

Kara Swisher 23:33 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 23:33 And I moved to New York.

Kara Swisher 23:34 Can I ask you a question?

Scott Galloway 23:34 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 23:34 Did you deserve it just a little bit?

Scott Galloway 23:36 Did I deserve what?

Kara Swisher 23:38 What happened? What happened with Sequoia? I'm just asking. I'm just curious.

Scott Galloway 23:40 Oh, I, I, I was an obnoxious, aggressive entrepreneur that was arrogant and reckless.

Kara Swisher 23:46 Okay.

Scott Galloway 23:46 Uh, but also Mike M- Moritz is a small, vindictive man.

Kara Swisher 23:49 [laughs] Okay. Got it.

Scott Galloway 23:50 Um, so-

Kara Swisher 23:51 Thank you.

Scott Galloway 23:51 Uh, so yeah.

Kara Swisher 23:52 Just checking.

Scott Galloway 23:52 I, I don't... I think there's enough blame to go around for everyone.

Kara Swisher 23:54 Okay. Yeah.

Scott Galloway 23:55 And also the board was a bunch of-

Kara Swisher 23:56 Tough sell

Scott Galloway 23:57 ... a bunch of obsequious people getting... Anyways, um-

Kara Swisher 24:01 [laughs] It doesn't hurt

Scott Galloway 24:01 ... I'm still not triggered. I'm clearly over it.

Kara Swisher 24:04 [laughs] Okay.

Scott Galloway 24:04 I'm clearly over it.

Kara Swisher 24:06 All of you are. I swear, all of you are still to this day.

Scott Galloway 24:08 I'm clearly over it.

Kara Swisher 24:09 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 24:09 Anyways, I moved back to New York, and I started an e-commerce incubator backed by Goldman, JPMorgan, Maveron, Howard, uh, Howard Schultz's company.And it was near impossible to recruit people to come to work for a technology incubator. And I would take people out who were working at traditional media, who were making $500,000 or $600,000 a year, and I'd say, "I can only pay you 200, but I'm gonna give you 2 million options on 2 million shares."

Kara Swisher 24:36 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 24:36 And I would have to walk them through what options were.

Kara Swisher 24:41 Oh, wow.

Scott Galloway 24:42 Like, the, the ecosystem... I couldn't even use a New York-based law firm because they didn't do venture. People don't realize, New York in 2000 was about finance, it was about media. There was no... You know what the-

Kara Swisher 24:54 There were a couple. There were a couple little ones.

Scott Galloway 24:56 Oh, Gilt.

Kara Swisher 24:57 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 24:57 I mean, there was a Gilt in there.

Kara Swisher 24:59 Gilt, that's right.

Scott Galloway 24:59 That's one.

Kara Swisher 24:59 That's what I'm saying. Yo, Gilt. [gasps] I forgot about that.

Scott Galloway 25:01 There was Gilt and the Kevin Ryan company.

Kara Swisher 25:03 They had parties.

Scott Galloway 25:03 And then there was w- the one ad company that got sold to... There was no technology-

Kara Swisher 25:09 Yeah, there really wasn't

Scott Galloway 25:10 ... whatsoever.

Kara Swisher 25:10 Oh, wait, one. There was one. Oh, the one that bought, was bought by Yahoo. Tumblr.

Scott Galloway 25:14 Oh my God.

Kara Swisher 25:15 Tumblr. There was Tum- Tumblr was in New York.

Scott Galloway 25:17 Tumblr, the worst acquisition-

Kara Swisher 25:18 Tumblr

Scott Galloway 25:19 ... in history.

Kara Swisher 25:19 In history. [laughs]

Scott Galloway 25:20 The worst acquisition in history.

Kara Swisher 25:22 I broke that story. Nice to meet you, but yeah.

Scott Galloway 25:24 Yeah, within the same 60 days, um, uh, uh, Mark Zuckerberg made the best acquisition in history.

Kara Swisher 25:31 Instagram.

Scott Galloway 25:31 For a billion, he bought Instagram. It's now worth, I think-

Kara Swisher 25:34 Yeah

Scott Galloway 25:34 ... s- probably a, a half a trillion to a trillion dollars. And Marissa Mayer said, "I, I'm a baller," and she bought Tumblr for a billion dollars.

Kara Swisher 25:42 Ugh.

Scott Galloway 25:42 Which seven years later got sold for how much?

Kara Swisher 25:45 A couple million to-

Scott Galloway 25:45 $3 million [laughs]

Kara Swisher 25:47 ... WordPress.

Scott Galloway 25:47 It was a collection of, it was a collection of blogs.

Kara Swisher 25:49 Dirty sites. Dirty blogs.

Scott Galloway 25:51 And then when they shut down the porn, I'd s- I got into an online battle with, what's the guy with the bad Caesars haircut? Forget his name.

Kara Swisher 25:57 There were, there were two or three. There were two or three.

Scott Galloway 25:58 Union Square Ventures. Anyways.

Kara Swisher 26:00 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 26:00 They, they told Tumblr they were no longer gonna fund this bag of shit that was making no money.

Kara Swisher 26:05 [laughs]

Scott Galloway 26:05 But he convinced Marissa Mayer to buy it for $1.1 billion.

Kara Swisher 26:09 I know, I know, I know.

Scott Galloway 26:10 Anyways, uh, uh-

Kara Swisher 26:12 Anyways

Scott Galloway 26:12 ... so.

Kara Swisher 26:12 I'll walk down memory lane with you, Mark.

Scott Galloway 26:13 This has been fun. I've really enjoyed this.

Kara Swisher 26:15 I know. Yeah, okay. All right.

Scott Galloway 26:16 Um, and then I joined... And then my, my incubator collapsed within like six months founding it after the dot-com implosion, and I joined the faculty at NYU, where my first year's salary was $12,000.

Kara Swisher 26:28 Nice.

Scott Galloway 26:28 Good times.

Kara Swisher 26:29 Nice.

Scott Galloway 26:29 Good times. Um-

Kara Swisher 26:31 Back to exit. [laughs]

Scott Galloway 26:32 Anyways, back to Anthropic. What are we talk- I've said this. I wish... I, I have never bet on a, a predictions market. I, I said

Scott Galloway 26:40 this a week ago. Kalshi had Musk winning at 51 or 52%. Now it's all of a sudden fallen to 38.

Kara Swisher 26:48 Winning at what? Winning?

Scott Galloway 26:49 Winning the case.

Kara Swisher 26:50 Oh, the case. Yeah.

Scott Galloway 26:50 That Musk wins the case.

Kara Swisher 26:52 Yeah. Yeah, he's gotta make some moves. Yeah.

Scott Galloway 26:54 Going from... There is no moves. He does not-

Kara Swisher 26:56 Yeah

Scott Galloway 26:56 ... have a legal leg to stand on. You can go from a nonprofit to a for-profit. You're allowed to do that. This is regret and a messiah complex cosplaying a legal argument. Judges and courts aren't concerned or aren't moved by anger and indignance and buy, and seller's regret. They're moved by evidence and argument, and there's none here.

Kara Swisher 27:19 Though I will say, this trial, I was thinking, I, you know, you're watching the texts go back and forth, and Mira Murati doesn't like Sam really, even though she pretended she did, and the girlfriend, uh, who was on the board, I'm blanking on her name, I don't really care, 'cause, uh, Siobhan Zillis, um, who was at-

Scott Galloway 27:35 Isn't that his girlfriend?

Kara Swisher 27:37 Well, it's his partner, and then they had four children, and she didn't manage to tell the OpenAI people that she had two children with him. And obviously she was-

Scott Galloway 27:45 That's not a conflict, Kara.

Kara Swisher 27:47 [laughs] Uh-

Scott Galloway 27:48 That's-

Kara Swisher 27:48 She's like a spy in there. Like, right?

Scott Galloway 27:50 That's not a conflict.

Kara Swisher 27:50 They're accusing him of being a spy. Like, you might give that piece of information-

Scott Galloway 27:54 That's not a con-

Kara Swisher 27:54 ... if you're in a beef with someone.

Scott Galloway 27:55 If you're a fiduciary-

Kara Swisher 27:56 Oh

Scott Galloway 27:56 ... for all shareholders, making decisions around someone's compensation, and you're having-

Kara Swisher 27:59 Yeah

Scott Galloway 27:59 ... their children, that's just like-

Kara Swisher 28:01 Yeah. Yeah, yeah

Scott Galloway 28:01 ... she probably just forgot to mention it.

Kara Swisher 28:02 She wasn't doing compensation. Anyway, so the whole thing, and they're like going back and forth in this trial, and I thought, "This is a soap opera," but the most boring people, most awful, boring people in it. I'm like, "I could give a fuck that whether Mira Murati likes Sam Altman or not. I don't care. I don't care." Like, oh, he was manipulative? I don't care. Like, what does that have to do with anything? Like, I, you know, honestly, I, I force... You know, you hear that, of course, about Sam being manipulative and telling one person one thing and another. And as I'm reading it in the trial, I'm like, "So? But does this... Is this illegal? Is, he's just a jerk, or you didn't like him, or he was deceptive? Did he do anything illegal?" 'Cause otherwise, your internal corporate hijinks, I don't, you know, care. I do think she should've told people she had his babies, my, in my opinion. But the whole thing is like a bad soap opera that you wanna, like, turn off. Like, and it's just bad for AI, it's bad for the companies, and therefore, he's gonna do another deal like this. That's where we, that's why we're where we are. He's trying to glom himself onto a successful thing.

Scott Galloway 29:05 Ron Wayne-

Kara Swisher 29:06 Yeah

Scott Galloway 29:06 ... was one of the founders of Apple.

Kara Swisher 29:08 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 29:09 He owned 10% of it.

Kara Swisher 29:11 Hmm.

Scott Galloway 29:11 He sold his 10% for $2,300-

Kara Swisher 29:14 Yeah

Scott Galloway 29:14 ... back to, I think, Jobs and Wozniak. That is now worth $400 billion.

Kara Swisher 29:20 Yeah, and he feels bad.

Scott Galloway 29:21 And guess what?

Kara Swisher 29:22 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 29:22 It sucks to be a grown-up. He signed the legal documents. Private property, key to private property is when, like Elon Musk, and my favorite defense is, oh, he didn't read the fine print. He's the wealthiest man in the world with the most sophisticated legal team in history, but oh, he didn't read the fine... I would like to, I, I would just love to see someone show up who sold, the guy who sold Tesla to Musk, or the rights to it, I forget his name, show up and say, "Oh, I didn't realize it was gonna be worth this much, and I didn't read the fine print."

Kara Swisher 29:49 Right.

Scott Galloway 29:49 Just to see how that goes over in court.

Kara Swisher 29:50 Yeah, instead he's like, "Baby daddy." I'm like, "Come on." Like, stop it, you people.

Scott Galloway 29:55 And then, and then the notion-

Kara Swisher 29:56 You fucking people.

Scott Galloway 29:57 They're try-

Kara Swisher 29:57 These are the smartest people on our planet. You know?

Scott Galloway 29:59 They're trying to make-

Kara Swisher 29:59 They sound like such idiots. [laughs]

Scott Galloway 30:00 They're trying to make the, an emotional argument that he's trying to, that I wanted it to be a nonprofit, and then what did I do? Go on to found a for-profit AI company that arguably has less guardrails than any other AI company.

Kara Swisher 30:13 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 30:14 A, a jury of actual people-

Kara Swisher 30:16 I know

Scott Galloway 30:17 ... I, I think this is a great buy-

Kara Swisher 30:19 Nobody looks good

Scott Galloway 30:19 ... at 38%. I'll take the other side of this. I don't-

Kara Swisher 30:22 Yeah. Yeah

Scott Galloway 30:23 ... they're, he-

Kara Swisher 30:23 Nobody likes these peopleI have to say, Brockman came out. Of all these sort of loathsome people, I'm waiting for the Sam Altman testimony, but of all the people so far, Greg Brockman comes off the best, and I'm not a particular fan of his either. Like, the one that keeps notes of everything. So some of the highlights of the testimony, let's see, emails from Zillis showing Musk suggested OpenAI become part of Tesla, potentially as a B corp subsidiary. Musk tried to recruit Sam Altman to join AI, the world-class AI lab within Tesla, even offering him a board seat. They didn't... had no interest, Sam Altman and Greg Brockman. Two days before the trial started, Musk texted Brockman asking if he was interested in settling the case. Musk supposedly wanted full control of OpenAI, in part to help him raise eighty billion dollars to colonize Mars, and was using OpenAI employees to do secret work for Tesla. OpenAI president said that Musk's lack of understanding, this is Brockman, of AI was a concern for the company. I... That was factual. I real- when I heard that, I'm like, "I, I get it." And OpenAI's former CTO, Mira Murati, who's a very nice person, she testified saying she couldn't trust Sam Altman's words and saying he created chaos. Mira, I like you, but I don't care. Like, then leave.

Scott Galloway 31:35 None, none-

Kara Swisher 31:35 If... Leave. Leave. I-

Scott Galloway 31:36 None of this matters

Kara Swisher 31:37 ... nothing matters. Like, none of it, right?

Scott Galloway 31:39 It, it's not, it's not who's a better person. It's not who would be a better shepherd of AI. It's contract law.

Kara Swisher 31:46 I know. They're all just awful.

Scott Galloway 31:46 When you sell an asset, it doesn't, it doesn't matter who the bigger asshole is, the seller-

Kara Swisher 31:51 No

Scott Galloway 31:51 ... or the buyer.

Kara Swisher 31:52 I know. It's just-

Scott Galloway 31:52 He sold. He gave up his ownership and governance rights.

Kara Swisher 31:55 Baby daddy gave up his ownership.

Scott Galloway 31:57 It doesn't-

Kara Swisher 31:58 Baby daddy did.

Scott Galloway 31:58 And, and the whole, and media's-

Kara Swisher 31:59 Baby daddy did

Scott Galloway 31:59 ... trying to turn this into, who would be better at running it? It doesn't fucking matter.

Kara Swisher 32:03 Please, don't follow along with me with these people are saying.

Scott Galloway 32:04 You, you, you, when you sell an asset-

Kara Swisher 32:07 Right

Scott Galloway 32:07 ... it doesn't matter who's the better person or steward of-

Kara Swisher 32:10 Yeah

Scott Galloway 32:10 ... the home you sold.

Kara Swisher 32:11 It, it is instructive to look how sloppy it is. And so you... That's why I keep saying to people, they're like, "Oh, they're masters of the universe." I'm like, "They're kinda sloppy." Like Google, like everybody in the beginning of Google, they were all, like, fucking each other. Like, [laughs] it was like... And it was a big mess, and it was chaos, and they all hated each other. They liked each other. I could care less, right? That's the thing, until professional management got in. Microsoft early on was like this, like kind of a mess. But who cares? But the fact that it's coming out in court is, it, it just makes you realize how dumb and dumb, dumb, dumb this trial is, like how dumb it is. It's about money. It's all it is.

Scott Galloway 32:49 This is, this is, I sold something that ended up being worth-

Kara Swisher 32:53 Yeah

Scott Galloway 32:53 ... eight hundred and fifty billion dollars.

Kara Swisher 32:54 Yeah. You're right. You're...

Scott Galloway 32:55 And-

Kara Swisher 32:55 That's exactly right

Scott Galloway 32:56 ... it's I'm the messiah who's gonna put us on Mars, who should control autonomous-

Kara Swisher 33:00 Mars

Scott Galloway 33:00 ... in the US, should control space. And, oh, by the way, the, the one part of the technological revolution that I don't control and I can't seem to catch up in is, is AI. And so it's six years after, I've decided, oh, I, I need... I should own it. I need it back, or I need money back, or I need to get in the way of their progress so xAI can... I mean, pretty soon it's gonna be, I don't know, I had a conversation with Dario Amodei, I should own-

Kara Swisher 33:28 Yeah

Scott Galloway 33:28 ... you know, he, he, I should own Anthropic.

Kara Swisher 33:31 It's ridiculous, these people. Eighty bill- eighty billion dollars to colonize Mars? Guess what, Elon? You have it. Spend it and have a good ti- have at it. Good luck. Bye. Take your children. Go. We're, we're thrilled for you. We're, we're excited. We'll write a, a, a t- a poem for you, like, when, on your way out. It's so stupid.

Scott Galloway 33:49 Mike Tyson, at the peak of his career, um, fought Marvis Frazier and knocked him out in the first 30 seconds. I think legally, Elon Musk is Marvis Frazier. I just think the guy-

Kara Swisher 34:04 [laughs] I don't even know what you're talking about.

Scott Galloway 34:05 It's a boxing analogy. I don't like boxing 'cause I don't like to see young men beating each other up like that.

Kara Swisher 34:10 Neither do I.

Scott Galloway 34:10 But if you want to talk-

Kara Swisher 34:11 I don't even watch

Scott Galloway 34:11 ... oh my gosh, whenever the, the, the reels come on of Mike Tyson's 10 greatest knockouts, Jesus Christ.

Kara Swisher 34:18 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 34:18 I met him at a restaurant.

Kara Swisher 34:20 Did you?

Scott Galloway 34:20 Yeah. He came up to me. He was smoking.

Kara Swisher 34:21 You didn't talk to him crossways, I hope.

Scott Galloway 34:23 Oh my, I was so scared of the guy. I just thought, "Be nice to him."

Kara Swisher 34:26 Yeah. Yeah.

Scott Galloway 34:26 That guy-

Kara Swisher 34:26 Interesting

Scott Galloway 34:27 ... one of the most dominant athletes of all time. Anyways, this is, this is, this should, and I believe will be a first round fucking knockout, and all this drama and all the media say, "Who would be better at Open? What happened?"

Kara Swisher 34:40 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 34:40 "Who's fuck-"

Kara Swisher 34:40 None of them.

Scott Galloway 34:41 "Who's fucking-"

Kara Swisher 34:42 None of them.

Scott Galloway 34:42 "Who's fucking who?" It's like when Iran and Iraq were at war, I used to say-

Kara Swisher 34:46 Mm-hmm

Scott Galloway 34:46 ... I hope the bullets win.

Kara Swisher 34:47 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 34:48 I, I don't, uh, both a-

Kara Swisher 34:50 I, we don't care

Scott Galloway 34:51 ... I went on CNN and they asked me-

Kara Swisher 34:54 Mm-hmm

Scott Galloway 34:54 ... who would be a better steward? I'm like, "It doesn't matter."

Kara Swisher 34:56 None of them.

Scott Galloway 34:57 It doesn't matter.

Kara Swisher 34:58 None of them.

Scott Galloway 34:58 It shouldn't be-

Kara Swisher 34:58 The answer is none.

Scott Galloway 35:00 The answer is no.

Kara Swisher 35:00 The government.

Scott Galloway 35:01 And it doesn't matter. Private capital and private property means it sucks to be a grown-up, and if you sell your house that ends up being next to fucking Mark Zuckerberg and could be worth eight or ten million right now, okay, it's done. You sold it, boss.

Kara Swisher 35:13 Let me, let me make one final observation about these people. These are the richest people on Earth, and they're so manifestly unhappy. They just can't shut the fuck up. They can't stop fighting. They have so much money. None of them are qualified to run, uh, be in charge of AGI. None of them. They're... This is what this is showing, what tiny, petty, angry, unhappy people they all are, every single one of them. And you're like, "Y'all, none of you deserve what you've got here, so... And none of you has the dignity or character to, to look good." And meanwhile, over to the left, Dario Amodei's, like, sucking up all the attributes of goodness. I don't even trust him, and I like him. Like, it doesn't even matter at these people. Anyway, they're small.

Scott Galloway 35:55 But the problem is we shouldn't have to trust these people.

Kara Swisher 35:57 Any of them.

Scott Galloway 35:57 We should be able to elect representatives we can trust-

Kara Swisher 35:59 That's right

Scott Galloway 35:59 ... to do the right thing-

Kara Swisher 36:00 That's correct

Scott Galloway 36:00 ... and regulate these companies.

Kara Swisher 36:01 And then we can fire them easily. Anyway, let's go on a quick break. When we come back, we'll talk about managing a stock portfolio via ChatGPT. You'll like this one, Scott. [gentle music] Support for this show comes from Ferragamo. On Mother's Day, Ferragamo wants to celebrate the everyday moments between a mother and her loved ones, where style, confidence, and grace are naturally communicated. Ferragamo presents their The Things I Have Learned From You collection, where the deepest form of love and elegance are showcased. Because these lessons are not formally taught, but rather absorbed through the small, everyday gestures that define a lifetime. Their new Hug Soft XS bag is the true protagonist of the selection. It's compact, but never confined. The Hug Soft XS translates Ferragamo's craftsmanship into a form designed for a modern rhythm.Graceful in the hand, effortless in motion, versatile across occasions. Plus, there's a selection of silk scarves and bandeau featuring prints with flowers, leaves, and petals arranged to reproduce iconic shoe designs from the Ferragamo archive, reflecting the brand's tradition of storytelling through print. Designed to last, like the values they represent, Ferragamo embodies the enhancing ideas of femininity, refined, effortless, and authentic. Discover Ferragamo's Mother's Day gifting selection at ferragamo.com or in store. Scott, we're back

Kara Swisher 37:24 with just one more quick story. Over the past few months, I'd love to know what you think of this. A Wall Street Journal reporter asked ChatGPT for investment advice to see if AI could really realistically manage a stock portfolio. It's a- it actually makes sense. There's, uh, speaking of, uh, of, um, of, uh, Anthropic, they just did an interesting deal where it would make decks and pitch decks and things like that working... It's called, it's a company, I can't remember the name, but it's interesting though. Um, uh, ChatGPT, uh, there's a lot of interesting smaller AI companies being made that actually sound useful, and so this is what the reporter did. ChatGPT generally identified market risks, but also made simple math mistakes, suggested questionable market timing strategies, and sometimes veered into overly complex ideas like options trading. The chatbot often told the user what they seemed to want to hear, highlighting a bigger concern that AI could sound confident and persuasive even when its advice may be flawed or risky. Sounds like a lot of brokers I know. About 30% of everyday investors report using AI for their portfolios. So apparently not so good yet, not, a- and in lots of really problematic ways that you... I mean, with a person you're looking at, you sort of have a sense when they're sort of trying to sell you something you don't want. Um, so it's curious. It's just like with law or medical, it's not there. It's not there, and this personalized investment advice is just the latest wrinkle. I don't mind them making, you know, decks, pitch decks, and things like that, but, um, huge risk for lawsuits, I would assume, just the same with legal or medical or anything else. Any thoughts?

Scott Galloway 38:55 Well, it, I- I think it was tempting to believe in the '90s you could l- use Lotus, you know, 123 to-

Kara Swisher 39:03 Oh, yeah

Scott Galloway 39:03 ... uh, beat the market by doing all sorts of-

Kara Swisher 39:06 Calculations

Scott Galloway 39:06 ... analysis and calculations, and you might have had an edge for a minute. But what I would argue is that, uh, the, the, the individual thinking they can use, uh, Claude, and I'm guilty of this. I've been asking Claude like crazy using Cowork to come up with different options and hedging strategies and to identify stocks. I'm guilty of it. I, I love the markets. I like to gamble. It's my means of gambling.

Kara Swisher 39:29 You do. That's why I'm asking you this.

Scott Galloway 39:30 And I find it interesting what it says, but here's the bottom line or what I think. Ken Griffin will hire 2,000 PhDs, and he will weaponize them with AI, and they will outperform the market. But you believing with your $20 a month Claude Cowork weapon can compete against these folks, you are showing up with a very elegant squirt gun, and they have a fucking howitzer. So this is what you do. You invest in low-cost ETFs like Vanguard, and people who know and understand technology can use, you know, understand how to use AI. But this will further, this will further diminish or create or widen the delta between individual investors and institutional because institutional investors will have the capital. The bottom line is every time you, you place a trade, you got to keep in mind on the other side of that trade is likely someone smarter than you [laughs] that has broader technology. So what you want to do, in my view, unless you... I get a lot of, I get a lot of psychic income around playing the market. So 30% of my net worth, I-

Kara Swisher 40:38 But you like doing it. You like doing it

Scott Galloway 40:39 ... I, I enjoy it. You know, it- it's fun for me.

Kara Swisher 40:42 It's a thrill point.

Scott Galloway 40:42 Occasionally, I have access to a deal that other people don't have access to, so fine. But the retail investor would be better off finding low-cost ETFs-

Kara Swisher 40:51 Agreed

Scott Galloway 40:51 ... where the management team there is really technically competent.

Kara Swisher 40:55 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 40:55 But the notion-

Kara Swisher 40:56 That's what I do.

Scott Galloway 40:57 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 40:57 That's what I do.

Scott Galloway 40:57 That's ex-

Kara Swisher 40:57 I just put it in there.

Scott Galloway 40:58 Exactly the right way to do it.

Kara Swisher 40:59 And I don't want to... I'm not interested in it. I know I could do slightly better if I... I'm, I'm a little smarter than most people and I'll have a little more insight.

Scott Galloway 41:05 No, you're smarter, you're smarter in an area that has nothing to do... That- that's Donnie Kruger.

Kara Swisher 41:10 No, what I mean is-

Scott Galloway 41:10 Be careful thinking that.

Kara Swisher 41:11 No, what I mean is I have some thoughts on, on some things that I prob-

Scott Galloway 41:15 Mm-hmm.

Kara Swisher 41:15 I'm talking about the average bear.

Scott Galloway 41:17 Right.

Kara Swisher 41:17 But I'm, I don't think I'm smarter than the market.

Scott Galloway 41:18 Well, you understand technology.

Kara Swisher 41:20 That's right.

Scott Galloway 41:20 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 41:21 So I could be like, "Hmm, I wouldn't bet on this company. I would bet on this company" probably earlier than other people, but I still wouldn't win, still.

Scott Galloway 41:28 The problem is people have emotions in the market, and you can't trust your emotions in the market. So when the stock gets cut in half, your emotion is to sell it because you can't take any more pain, and that's probably when you should be buying more. And so, w- and then you, and then you have, you literally have Ken Griffin out there looking at all the trades and seeing where emotion is spiking or irrationally plummeting, and then moving in, in, in a millionth of a second and then moving out a- and, and absorbing millions of different data points. So you do not, you do not want to play in traffic here and believe that just because, you, you're gonna get up to the mound where a guy's pitching 105 miles an hour because you got a, a new aluminum bat that you think is gonna... that you're gonna be able to hit a home run. No, you're gonna get beaned in the face. So I- I do think AI is gonna be a huge unlock, and also it will compress margins because what will happen is financial advisors, unless they're really good and can go upstream into tax planning, a mediocre financial planner at your local bank, no, you could probably do almost as well using AI, or better, and save 1% a year. I remember when I, my mom passed away and I was looking at her estate.This guy was charging her one or 1.5% of her assets every year to put her on eight S&P stocks. I'm like, "Okay, that's just not that hard. Why are we paying-

Kara Swisher 42:55 Right

Scott Galloway 42:55 ... you 1.5%?"

Kara Swisher 42:57 Right. Yeah.

Scott Galloway 42:57 And-

Kara Swisher 42:58 It was 1.5%.

Scott Galloway 42:59 So what I would say is I think, by the way, I think people should use AI to try and pick stocks. I just don't think they should buy them. I think it's fascinating to see the logic, to see what it comes back with, to start asking it more questions. I've been trying to figure out option strategies and a, a strangle strategy. I just... I'm learning a lot.

Kara Swisher 43:17 Although sometimes you don't know if it's accurate, right? That's the issue. Some of it, the, the sycophantic-ness is, is still a problem because it's not gonna chal- It's not... If you... It's... I think someone was... I think the article says it's no more than having a smart assistant, right? Like, they're no smarter than anything else, and, and there's an assistant part which doesn't wanna, wanna displease you, and then it's just a smart person, but you're never gonna have an edge with AI the way-

Scott Galloway 43:43 But you can, you can normalize for that. There's a, a, a co-work feature in Anthropic where you ask this council of people, one's a cynic, one's an optimist, one is, one is grounded in historical context, the other is like an analytical and un- unemotional person, and all of these, quote-unquote, agents look at your question, and then they distill their answers up to a, quote-unquote, chairman who distills it and gives you an answer back. You can also... I, I, I lead a lot of prompts with, "Give me the brutal truth," because I don't like, you know, I don't like it. I hate it when it says to me, "Great question." The other thing you should do is, is... and I can't do this because I unsubscribed from ChatGPT, you can beta test the same, do the exact same prompt somewhere else.

Kara Swisher 44:28 Yeah. I did that before I quit, and I was on other things, like show me a, a book title. Get, show me a book cover. I gotta say Claude was hands down the best. It just was. It just was so clearly better. You know when you taste test things, you're like, "Ugh, that tastes like shit," and that's good, right? Or the coffee or something like that. But yeah, you're right. But anyway, it's very interesting. I mean, you should all try it out to see what happens and do one of those tests, but this was a great article in the journal, and I think it showed that it just doesn't, it's not as ready for primetime, as they say.

Scott Galloway 45:00 And about 30%, a third of retail investors are already using AI for their-

Kara Swisher 45:03 Mm-hmm

Scott Galloway 45:03 ... portfolios. And so-

Kara Swisher 45:06 Everyone's looking for a shortcut, Scott

Scott Galloway 45:07 ... but this, it- one of the greatest grips, I believe, legal grips-

Kara Swisher 45:11 Mm-hmm

Scott Galloway 45:11 ... in corporate history was the financial advisor or-

Kara Swisher 45:15 Oh, yeah

Scott Galloway 45:15 ... or institutional investors. And by the way, the majority of the grift has happened amongst the richest. Rich people like-

Kara Swisher 45:22 Yeah. They always have the hand-holders, yeah

Scott Galloway 45:24 ... rich people like to believe that they deserve something better, so they wanna get into these really high-profile, well-marketed hedge funds who they believe, "Oh, I have access to Olsen," or, "I have access to this, you know, D. E. Shaw," whatever. Okay, fine. Guess what? If you added up all alternative investments and hedge fund returns for the last 50 years, they have underperformed the S&P by the amount of their fees. It's a... A- and some outperform. Berkshire Hathaway has outperformed. My buddy at Anchorage Capital has outperformed. You know, I have another buddy at Mudrick Capital who's outperformed. But generally speaking, over the long, medium and long term, they all underperform the market by their fees. And e- e- every piece of data analysis, if, if you go to the finance department at a world-class university and ask them where they invest, they're like, "Vanguard."

Kara Swisher 46:16 Mm-hmm. Me too.

Scott Galloway 46:17 And they don't pick stocks. [laughs]

Kara Swisher 46:19 That's right.

Scott Galloway 46:19 They don't pick stocks.

Kara Swisher 46:20 Do you know what I do? I put... I don't kn- Someone's like, "How are your stocks doing?" I'm like, "I have no idea," and I s- I'm not gonna look until I need... and I don't really need the money, so I just am like, I just put it there, and then it goes away. It's like it's, like a bank at Gringotts. I don't care. Like, I, I, the, I, the more I think about it, the more upset I get, right?

Scott Galloway 46:37 That's-

Kara Swisher 46:37 Like, what am I missing? What did I get wrong?

Scott Galloway 46:39 That's a great-

Kara Swisher 46:39 Did I buy gold? Should I do this?

Scott Galloway 46:40 It's a great point.

Kara Swisher 46:40 And then I'm like, "Why am I that fucking person?"

Scott Galloway 46:43 It's a great point-

Kara Swisher 46:44 Like-

Scott Galloway 46:44 ... because in addition to the capital you're investing, you wanna talk about the emotion you're investing. And that is, I do get psychic income, but-

Kara Swisher 46:54 You like it. You like it

Scott Galloway 46:55 ... I, I, I, I started buying stocks when I was 13. I worked at Morgan Stanley. I f- I find it fascinating. I really do enjoy markets, and it's served me well. Having said that, it also takes a real emotional toll staring at your fucking phone, and then when you buy a stock and you're convinced you're a genius and it gets cut by 40% in two weeks after you buy it, you're really gonna beat yourself up.

Kara Swisher 47:15 The only thing I wish you wouldn't do is put so much of your, your, your medical information [laughs] into these people 'cause they don't, it's n- they don't, they're not bound by HIPAA. Same thing with legal. I'm like, please don't. I mean, unless you find one of these ones that is bound by the same laws everybody else is. I just worry about that over time.

Scott Galloway 47:33 What's that? Wait, who's Ted Turner's son?

Kara Swisher 47:34 No, I'm just saying when you p- whenever you put a lot of your per- You always like, "Oh, I loaded up you." Sometimes you don't even realize you're saying this to me. "I put away all my medical thing into this," and I was like, "Really? Not sure I trust these people to have all Scott's medical information."

Scott Galloway 47:45 I'm very promiscuous with my information.

Kara Swisher 47:47 You are. It makes me worry. I'll be honest with you. I think, "Oh, dear. No, don't do that."

Scott Galloway 47:51 'Cause you think at some point-

Kara Swisher 47:52 Um

Scott Galloway 47:52 ... they're gonna get all of it and weaponize it against us.

Kara Swisher 47:54 They're, they're not... I, I... They could because they're not bound by HIPAA. They're not bound by legal things. Anyway.

Scott Galloway 48:00 I wonder if I should just send out-

Kara Swisher 48:03 Hmm

Scott Galloway 48:03 ... a preemptive apology to Angie Dickinson and Emily Ratajkowski right now.

Kara Swisher 48:08 Why?

Scott Galloway 48:09 Well, just all the things I've asked AI about. [laughs]

Kara Swisher 48:11 Oh, no. Okay, we're moving on. We gotta go. All right. One more quick break. We'll be back for predictions. Okay, Scott, let's

Kara Swisher 48:18 hear a prediction. Do you have a prediction for us?

Scott Galloway 48:21 There was a really interesting story this week that I think kind of indicates or portends, portends what it m- might be in store for us around, um, potential acquisitions, and I made a similar prediction a few years ago, but it didn't pan out, and that is a 32-year-old TikToker just crowdfunded 132 million in non-binding pledges to buy a bankrupt, uh, Spirit Airlines. Did you see this?

Kara Swisher 48:45 Mm. No, I didn't.

Scott Galloway 48:45 He said, he said, "Look, Spirit helps keep airline prices down. Let's do what we did with the Green Bay Packers, and let's mutualize it." And y- he's very talented.And Spirit said it was gonna shut down at 2:00 AM on Saturday, and this guy, Hunter Peterson, had a TikTok up the same day, a website by the next, and 6 million views within days, and more than a hun- get this, Kara, more than 133,000 people have pledged on average about 1,000 bucks each, totaling, uh, $132 million. And essentially what he's saying is that, okay, 20% of American adults paying the average Spirit fare of $30 to $40 equals enough to buy an airline, and they say it's unli- it, okay, listen, it's unlikely to close, but the idea with in an era of AI and compliance AI, where you could spin up the legal documents and have people sign them, and with PayPal, I think you're gonna see in the next 12 to 36 months someone pull this off, where they say, "Hey, who wants to buy Estée Lauder?" Or, "Who wants to buy" [chuckles] you know, the... And it'll start with a small stock. It wouldn't be Estée Lauder 'cause that's too big a company, but it'll start with a small company that goes out of business. They'll say, "Okay, Dick's Sporting Go-" whatever it is, and someone talented who's very charismatic who will weaponize social media and AI to collect legal pledges for funds and will buy something. I think crowdfunding, I think crowdfunding is gonna, um, is gonna, is gonna happen. And re- a- and also retail participation in US equities has risen by nearly 20% of average daily trading volume, which by the way is usually a sell signal, um, up from low single digits before COVID, and-

Kara Swisher 50:30 So it's like when everybody got in one of those accounts.

Scott Galloway 50:33 That's right.

Kara Swisher 50:34 Trading accounts.

Scott Galloway 50:34 And rather than fading, retail flows hit fresh records in 2025, new ex-

Kara Swisher 50:38 Well, it's 'cause the stock market's up and everybody's like, "I'm missing."

Scott Galloway 50:39 That's right. Everyone thinks they're a genius now. Everyone's like, "Oh, I'm, I'm-"

Kara Swisher 50:42 All right. Okay, I like that. Why don't you do it? Why don't we buy something?

Scott Galloway 50:45 Well, that's what I used to do for a living between 2000 and 2008.

Kara Swisher 50:48 I know, but why don't we like try all kinds of stunts? What could we buy? What would we buy?

Scott Galloway 50:51 All kinds of stunts?

Kara Swisher 50:53 Like Chipotle or something. [laughs]

Scott Galloway 50:54 Chipotle is expensive.

Kara Swisher 50:56 [laughs] All right.

Scott Galloway 50:56 Chipotle is expensive.

Kara Swisher 50:58 I don't wanna buy an airline.

Scott Galloway 50:58 Do you know they sent me... I used to tell you, I was in the original, uh-

Kara Swisher 51:01 Isn't that the plot of-

Scott Galloway 51:02 They sent me a card

Kara Swisher 51:03 ... Lawsuit? Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 51:04 This is the most impressed my sons have ever been with me. I got a card for free lifetime Chipotle, and I sold it, or I didn't sell it, I've lost it, but I love Chipotle.

Kara Swisher 51:13 Oh, you want one again. That's what this was about, a little call for help.

Scott Galloway 51:15 I didn't get paid. They sent me a card. No, if they do it again, I want, I want serious cabbage.

Kara Swisher 51:19 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 51:20 But-

Kara Swisher 51:20 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 51:21 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 51:21 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 51:21 It's, uh-

Kara Swisher 51:22 Hmm. All right.

Scott Galloway 51:23 Yeah. I like-

Kara Swisher 51:23 I like that prediction. By the way, I predict the government is gonna lose that idiotic case against The New York Times about the hiring, the DEI, and then attacking the woman who did redistricting. These people make Ceaușescu look kind. It's ridiculous. They're going after all their enemies with the FBI, and they're attacking... Here's what I predict. It's gonna end in tears for those people. They're, they attacked The New York Times for DEI a- in a lawsuit. Then they're gonna use the Justice Department to try to get, uh, E. Jean Carroll's money that Trump owes her, the $83 million, which is insane, and then they attacked the woman in, the 82-year-old woman. They in- they, they raided her office, um, to try to find corruption, who did the, who was so, s- this, this badass lady in Virginia who did all the redistricting that kicked their ass. And then they are investigating the reporter for The Atlantic who f- uh, you know, no shit Sherlock, did the story about Kash Patel being a drunk. Um, and of course she immediately answered it by showing off a bottle she bought on auction where Kash Patel gives out whiskey to people with his name on it, like some Woodford Wi- Reserve whiskey. So n- uh, no one's having any of this nonsense that they're doing. It's just so, like, cloddish and thuggish. So none of it's gonna work. That's my prediction.

Scott Galloway 52:39 I, I, I can't help it. I agree with you. Uh, private companies get to do what they want, whether DE- uh, that's none of the government's business, i- in my view, unless it's they're claiming reverse racism. Eh, I, I think that, that-

Kara Swisher 52:51 Oh, stop it

Scott Galloway 52:51 ... that, I will say-

Kara Swisher 52:52 Let them sue, let the guy sue her, sue The New York Times. I don't care.

Scott Galloway 52:56 Um, look, a search warrant is not proof of guilt, but it is a serious threshold, and federal judges do not casually approve raids on senior state legislators.

Kara Swisher 53:06 I, you know, come on. Come on.

Scott Galloway 53:06 So, well, uh, of-

Kara Swisher 53:08 Why her? Why her?

Scott Galloway 53:09 Because, well, okay, you could argue that the investigation, the fact that it was even launched is politicized, but a federal, a sitting federal, uh, judge, th- they do not issue-

Kara Swisher 53:20 No, I don't know

Scott Galloway 53:21 ... uh, this is, this is, in my opinion, we'll see what the evidence says.

Kara Swisher 53:24 That's correct.

Scott Galloway 53:25 And-

Kara Swisher 53:25 We'll see what the evidence says, but-

Scott Galloway 53:26 You know, because at-

Kara Swisher 53:27 Why her?

Scott Galloway 53:27 ... at the same time, a high-profile corruption probe-

Kara Swisher 53:30 Mm-hmm

Scott Galloway 53:30 ... they often look strongest at the raid stage and weaker later once the evidence is scrutinized publicly.

Kara Swisher 53:35 Yes, like with Letitia James, right?

Scott Galloway 53:36 But to be fair to the other side, a search warrant is a, you know, it has to pass a serious threshold that a federal judge does not casually approve on senior state legislators.

Kara Swisher 53:45 I, I understand that, but there's a reason they didn't pick 20 other Republican ones. They, they-

Scott Galloway 53:50 That's fair

Kara Swisher 53:50 ... this is what they do all the time. They just, this is rid- this is, it's, it's a, it's a weaponization of the power, and they, they've complained about it happening to them.

Scott Galloway 53:58 Yep.

Kara Swisher 53:59 And then they're doing it. So stop it.

Scott Galloway 54:00 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 54:01 Just cut it out. Anyway, we wanna hear from you. Send us your questions about business, tech or whatever's on your mind. Go to nytmag.com/pivot to submit a question for the show, or call 855-51-PIVOT. Elsewhere in the Kara and Scott universe this week, Scott, uh, Prof G Markets is going on tour this month. Uh, tell us a little bit about it. Tell us a tiny thing. It's t- kicking off May 27th. It's going to San Francisco, LA, Miami, Chicago, and New York. You go to profgmarketstour.com for tickets. Tell us a tiny bit about this and why people should go.

Scott Galloway 54:31 Uh, well, thanks, Kara. It's, it's similar to what we did be- with Pivot. It's a live tour. We have a bunch of great guests across different cities. What's interesting, it's interesting what sells out the quickest. New York and San Francisco, we were worried that San Francisco wouldn't like us 'cause we're constantly shitposting tech people, but New York and San Francisco are gonna sell out in the next 24 hours. And, um, anyways, but yeah, it's just a live tour with me and Ed Elson.

Kara Swisher 54:58 We sold out San Francisco first on Pivot.

Scott Galloway 55:00 Yeah, this, so it looks like-

Kara Swisher 55:01 And Toronto. Was it Toronto and San Francisco?

Scott Galloway 55:03 Oh, Toronto.

Kara Swisher 55:04 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 55:04 And Boston. Wait, did Boston?

Kara Swisher 55:06 We sold out Boston fa- we sold them all out fast. I'll be... And the LA was happened to be a huge theater, so it took a little longer, but.

Scott Galloway 55:11 Yeah, but it's, it's, um, and it'll be, after the show, it'll be a bunch of people coming up to me and asking me if Ed Elson is single because their daughter is looking for a nice husband.

Kara Swisher 55:20 [laughs]

Scott Galloway 55:20 Um, but yeah, so it's, it's my-

Kara Swisher 55:23 Good

Scott Galloway 55:23 ... um, Prof G Markets live tour. Go to Prof G Markets Tour, profgmarketstour, uh, .com.

Kara Swisher 55:30 .com. Yeah.

Scott Galloway 55:31 Thanks for that. [chuckles]

Kara Swisher 55:31 Good.

Scott Galloway 55:32 But yeah, it's starting-

Kara Swisher 55:33 Good

Scott Galloway 55:33 ... the end of May, uh, first week of June.

Kara Swisher 55:36 Great. That's fantastic. And also, we're gonna be doing Pivot in the fall with another Pivot tour in the fall. We're just, you're gonna be on the road, Scott Galloway.

Scott Galloway 55:42 We're doing another tour?

Kara Swisher 55:43 Yes. You know that. What are you... Do you know that? We are.

Scott Galloway 55:46 I didn't know that, but I'm excited about it. [laughs]

Kara Swisher 55:49 Yes, you did. You did know. We literally had a call about it. What happened, what happened with you?

Scott Galloway 55:52 We didn't have a call about another tour.

Kara Swisher 55:54 We literally discussed it. We're having a tour in the fall. You were on the call.

Scott Galloway 55:59 The fall?

Kara Swisher 55:59 You weren't listening, but you were there.

Scott Galloway 56:01 I don't-

Kara Swisher 56:02 You were

Scott Galloway 56:02 ... I don't remember. Where am I?

Kara Swisher 56:03 Well, we're having one. Anyway, that's the show. Thanks for listening to Pivot, and be sure to like and subscribe to our YouTube channel. We'll be back next week. [upbeat music]