Kara Swisher Calls Out White House Spin on Minneapolis ICE Shooting | Pivot

Kara Swisher 0:00 The US is actively discussing, uh, a potential offer to buy Greenland. I mean, they're not just murdering US citizens. They're very busy on other things. [upbeat music] Hi, everyone. This is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Kara Swisher. Scott Galloway continues to be under the weather, so I've brought in two more amazing co-hosts. We've got Audie Cornish, host of CNN This Morning, and the podcast, The Assignment, uh, and Bill Cohan, one of my favorite people to talk about business because there's a lot going on there, author and founding partner of Puck. Welcome, Audie and Bill.

Audie Cornish 0:41 Hey!

Bill Cohan 0:42 Hey, great to be here.

Kara Swisher 0:43 Thank you for-

Audie Cornish 0:44 So I had nothing to do with Scott's disappearance.

Kara Swisher 0:46 Yeah.

Audie Cornish 0:46 It's not that I haven't wanted to be on the show a lot. Like, I've been waiting with this quarter zip-

Kara Swisher 0:51 [laughing]

Audie Cornish 0:51 ... just so that I could be a part of the dialogue. [chuckles]

Kara Swisher 0:53 A quarter zip. [chuckles]

Audie Cornish 0:54 I did! I was like, "Are we talking business?"

Kara Swisher 0:57 Yeah. [chuckles] Yes, no.

Audie Cornish 0:58 So, [chuckles] so I'm sure Scott's fine. I didn't do anything to him at all.

Kara Swisher 1:01 No, okay. All right.

Audie Cornish 1:02 [chuckles]

Kara Swisher 1:02 You were trying... Yes, that would be a really good show-

Audie Cornish 1:04 Yeah

Kara Swisher 1:04 ... of like Audie trying to take down a co-host.

Audie Cornish 1:07 Like a Nancy Kerrigan-

Kara Swisher 1:08 Yeah, yeah

Audie Cornish 1:08 ... situation.

Kara Swisher 1:08 Do you have your quarter zip on, Bill?

Audie Cornish 1:10 Is that too soon? Yeah, Bill, do you have a quarter zip?

Bill Cohan 1:11 I do, but I don't have a Warner Brothers Discovery quarter zip, which I'd really like.

Kara Swisher 1:13 Ah, I brought one for you. I got this from David Zaslav. [chuckles]

Bill Cohan 1:17 Himself?

Kara Swisher 1:18 Yeah.

Audie Cornish 1:18 I technically did as well.

Kara Swisher 1:20 Yeah, exactly.

Audie Cornish 1:20 [chuckles]

Kara Swisher 1:20 Yeah, he gives them out. He dresses... I- I'm gonna say this, honestly, he dresses- I told him he dressed like a lesbian, and he said [chuckles] he does.

Audie Cornish 1:28 Only lesbians can say that. I opt out. I unsubscribe.

Kara Swisher 1:31 Unsubscribe. Um, but yes, there, this a, it's actually a fantastic vest. I have to-

Bill Cohan 1:35 You look great in it.

Kara Swisher 1:37 Thank you. It's really comfortable, and I wear it all the time, and, uh, my son this morning, uh, said, "Oh, that's the, uh, Scooby-Doo people." So I guess-

Audie Cornish 1:46 That is, of all the things-

Kara Swisher 1:47 Of all the things. [chuckles]

Audie Cornish 1:48 That's such a random- [chuckles]

Bill Cohan 1:49 For now, anyway.

Kara Swisher 1:49 We're gonna talk about-

Bill Cohan 1:50 For now.

Kara Swisher 1:50 For now, anyway.

Audie Cornish 1:51 It's so random.

Bill Cohan 1:52 For now.

Kara Swisher 1:52 Yes, exactly. We're gonna talk about that, and I really enjoy your stuff, Bill. But we've got a lot to get to today. Um, so we're gonna dig in. There's a lot of news, and the first one, obviously,

Kara Swisher 2:01 is the fatal shooting of a 37-year-old woman in her car by an ICE agent in Minneapolis. It's sparking these national outrage and protests again. Uh, the woman, Renee Nicole Good, uh, was a US citizen, a mother of, of three, and a poet. She's n- was not under any kind of investigation, according to law enforcement officials. Homeland Security Secretary Kristi Noem, uh, said Good was, quote, "stalking officers and attempting an act of domestic terrorism." What a heinous person she is. And Minneapolis Mayor Jacob, uh, Frey called that bullshit and told ICE to, quote, "Get the fuck out of Minneapolis." Uh, President Trump weighed in on Truth Social and once again blamed the radical left. Um, he did an interview just wh- where, where the reporters from New York Times showed it to him, and he sort of walked it back, uh, but he, he didn't precisely. Um, and of course, they're doubling down. Tom Homan, for a second, was reasonable, and he got the m- memo that they're supposed to call this woman a radical terrorist. Um, I want to get both your takes here, but first, let me share Scott Galloway's thoughts on this, which he texted me last night: "I'm horrified. History shows politics, uh, becomes a blood sport, and nation's light begins to flicker. Uh, a, uh, a Dem, Newsom, Whitmer, Shapiro, should announce candidacy this week and say, 'If elected, we are going to have the equivalent of the Nuremberg trials.' There needs to be a reckoning to starch the stain of corruption, insurrection, and bigotry. Dems are such fucking wimps." That was from Scott. [chuckles] Um, the words of Scott Galloway, ladies and gentlemen, from his sick bed. Audie, I'll start with you. What do you make of what we're seeing? You reported on it all morning on your show, on CNN, your morning show. So talk a little bit about... And you've covered this kind of stuff many times.

Audie Cornish 3:43 I have, and, I mean, talk about grim. Like, I think this woman had dropped her kid off at school, like, a six-year-old. Um, and so many people right now, wherever they fall on the political spectrum, feel a kind of helplessness. Like, "Wait a second, am I really where, where I thought I've, the country would be?" And so if you're one of those people and you decide, "Well, I'm gonna go out somewhere, I'm gonna do something, I'm gonna be present"-

Kara Swisher 4:10 Mm-hmm

Audie Cornish 4:10 ... um, and-

Kara Swisher 4:12 To protest.

Audie Cornish 4:13 Yeah, protest. A- and I'm not saying she definitely was protesting, but just the idea that you are in mortal danger now, uh, in these scenarios, I think is pretty terrifying. Also, the setting, it being Minneapolis, it being this many years after the death of George Floyd, it being in a place where protests went for a very long time, and in fact, other protesters were killed, like, it can, it can spin out into something else. And then lastly, the fact that this whole operation, you know, almost 90%, I think 87% of the Somalis in the state are naturalized citizens.

Kara Swisher 4:53 Right.

Audie Cornish 4:54 They are legal.

Kara Swisher 4:54 Mm-hmm.

Audie Cornish 4:55 So now you are really trying to find one and two and three people, and you have, uh, a city that is prepared.

Kara Swisher 5:03 Mm-hmm.

Audie Cornish 5:03 You'll look on your TVs in the next day or two and see some protesters wearing their gas masks already-

Kara Swisher 5:08 Mm-hmm

Audie Cornish 5:08 ... because they have seen this movie before, a kind of militarized-

Kara Swisher 5:12 Mm-hmm

Audie Cornish 5:12 ... um, response from law enforcement.

Kara Swisher 5:14 So can I ask you one other question? The, the response from the Trump administration immediately was trying to spin it. Of course, Kristi Noem put on whatever hat she had that day and started to spew lies, and then the videos, all of them, were very much different, including Fox News commentators commenting on, "Well, she was turning away from the ICE person"-

Audie Cornish 5:33 Yeah

Kara Swisher 5:33 ... "not turning, you know, the, he, she was trying to hit him. She's obviously dropped her kid off from school."

Audie Cornish 5:37 I know.

Kara Swisher 5:37 There's very little known.

Audie Cornish 5:39 I mean, look, if there's one thing we know how to do as Americans is, uh, scrutinize a video of a law enforcement-involved killing. Uh, I think we had a fair amount of practice at that. We have not had practice doing that with a white mother, [chuckles] you know, of a couple kids, and I think this has looked very shocking for people and familiar in ways that feel very sort of dark. The administration's whole stance on this entire process has been always double down, always triple down, never give any ground, um, because they feel they have not just, uh, some kind of moral authority. They'll evoke this mandate. You hear over and over on these cable news panels, "This is what people voted for." Um, I'll just wrap up by saying-... We don't matter. [chuckles] What the TV news says or commentators, people have eyes, and they have social media, and I have watched all of these ICE enforcements and arrests and protests on social media, where people offer their own commentary, and I think that is having way more impact than the administration would like to think. They want to think it's a Democratic governor somewhere saying something that's rhetoric that make people say, "F ICE." Ah, check the hashtag. You know, it, it's not run, certainly, by any Democratic, uh, messaging operation.

Kara Swisher 6:55 Right, right. So, Bill, I wonder because one of the things that I'm watching, though, is a lot of, uh, suddenly business people, well-known people, the head of Je- the guy who runs Jeopardy! spoke up, right? And just... I just was noticing Paul Graham, who I think you know, he was the head of Y Combinator, um, wrote, "ICE just shot and killed a woman in Minneapolis, a US citizen. How long before we say enough is enough?" Elon Musk responded, uh, "She tried to run people over," and Paul wrote back, and Paul is not... I wouldn't call him a liberal by... In fact, he's somewhat irritating on many levels. Um, uh, "She didn't, ah, no, she didn't. Here's the evidence. She's turning the wheel, the front wheels of the car to the right away from the ICE officer on her left. She was trying to run him over. Why would she turn in the other direction?" Um, there's r- uh, do you think, Bill, 'cause a lot of the... You haven't heard, you know, word one from any tech people on any of this or any business people on this stuff.

Bill Cohan 7:48 Yeah, I, I think we may be reaching a, a tipping point on that. Uh, to use a phrase that a, a lot of business people can understand, I think, um, this is obviously the inevitable outcome of the wider Stephen Miller agenda, uh, which is heinous in almost every respect. And, you know, and you'll have to remember that Stephen Miller's grandparents were immigrants, and if, uh, his policies were in place for them, uh, you know, maybe they never would've come to this country.

Kara Swisher 8:20 Grok-king Stephen Miller will be a years- a, a decades-long thing for future historians, but go ahead.

Bill Cohan 8:26 Uh, you know, a- absolutely. I mean, uh, this guy is completely out of control. Witness the, uh, interview he gave to Jake Tapper the other day-

Kara Swisher 8:34 Mm-hmm

Bill Cohan 8:34 ... uh, which was happened to be about Venezuela, but the same so- kind of arrogance and hubris applies here. Uh, so, I mean, these situations are po- powder kegs. Uh, you know, bringing in highly militarized, uh, you know, ICE officers into neighborhoods and rounding up people who should never be rounded up, uh, uh, you know. That so- it seems so un-American to me. I don't think this is what we voted for at all.

Kara Swisher 9:01 But why, why have businesses remained largely silent?

Bill Cohan 9:04 Because, you know, it, it, it-

Kara Swisher 9:06 Like, they didn't-

Bill Cohan 9:06 It doesn't affect-

Kara Swisher 9:06 During George Floyd.

Bill Cohan 9:08 Well, I mean, first of all, it seem... That seems like a lifetime ago, you know-

Kara Swisher 9:12 Mm-hmm

Bill Cohan 9:12 ... the reaction to George Floyd. I mean, people have, whatever, uh, gotten with the program.

Kara Swisher 9:18 Mm-hmm.

Bill Cohan 9:18 Uh, I remember, uh, having a dinner a few months ago with the CEO of a tech company, uh, Kara, who you-

Kara Swisher 9:24 Mm-hmm

Bill Cohan 9:25 ... probably know well, who I asked this exact thing: "Why are you not speaking up more, uh, uh, profoundly about what's going on here?"

Kara Swisher 9:32 Mm-hmm.

Bill Cohan 9:32 "Um, because it doesn't affect my business. Uh, what affects-

Kara Swisher 9:35 Mm

Bill Cohan 9:35 ... my business is, you know, my shareholders, my creditors, my employees. Uh, you know, this doesn't affect what Donald Trump is doing. What the regime is doing doesn't affect me. It's not my business. I'm gonna stay out of it, even though it's totally reprehensible and that these people should be speaking up."

Kara Swisher 9:52 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Bill Cohan 9:53 I mean, why have FU money if you're not going to speak up and use it?

Kara Swisher 9:57 FU. Yep, yep, absolutely. I mean, it'll be interesting. Uh, last thing, Audie, where do you imagine this going now with these videos? I mean, uh, it, it was really interesting, the New York Times interview, 'cause it looks like he was like, "Oh, yeah, I guess not." Will they continue to double down? What is the str... Uh, 'cause, of course, it takes away from their Venezuela capers, which we'll get to in a second. It takes away from their Greenland capers.

Audie Cornish 10:17 I'll be honest, it depends on what happens next. I mean, you'll notice my eyes are kind of going like this every few minutes is because right now there is this kind of images of what looks like a standoff and, uh, between protesters who are, like, linking arms, and then you have, uh, this is the state of the country we're in right now. I'm like, "Are these National Guard? Are these police? Are these ICE police? Like, who am I even looking at, and is this even how you do crowd control? Is this how you enforce things?" And I just want to add one more thing here. W- the, the ramp-up that we are witnessing of this law enforcement agency that is not structured the way the others are. It's not-

Kara Swisher 10:57 It's unaccountable.

Audie Cornish 10:58 It's unaccountable in such profound ways, and I think that I will be very curious if people feel like they voted for that. 'Cause when I hear the manosphere and the podcast bros kind of be like, "I don't know, man, and I don't know if you should be... I can't believe they're doing this. I can't believe they're doing that," to me, that's now reached the stage where the average person does not perceive this as just a mass deportation of criminals. I do think that horse has left the barn. It's now, do they think that what's being grown in their name, um, that they as voters should step in and somehow try and stop it or make their displeasure known?

Kara Swisher 11:36 And that the... Uh, which they are, have been doing. I mean, Gestapo wasn't what we voted for, I guess. That's how-

Bill Cohan 11:40 Can I, can I just add one-

Audie Cornish 11:40 Yeah!

Kara Swisher 11:40 Sure, go ahead.

Bill Cohan 11:41 Thank you.

Kara Swisher 11:41 Please do.

Bill Cohan 11:41 I mean, I just think we're living, sorry, uh, through an era of unaccountability. There's no-

Audie Cornish 11:46 Mm-hmm

Bill Cohan 11:46 ... accountability for ICE. There's no accountability for Venezuela. There's no accountability for ripping down the East Wing of the White House. There's no accountability for re, uh, describing what happened on January, uh, 6th in, on, on the White House website. I mean, every day there's, uh, an example of bad behavior, uh, that would normally be unacceptable. In my lifetime, uh, uh, it would be completely unacceptable for o- our, our, our politicians to act this way, and yet, uh, they do it with impunity, and there's never any accountability.

Audie Cornish 12:22 But there is a lever, just no one's pulling it. I mean, I hear Scott talk like this all the time, but-

Kara Swisher 12:27 Mm-hmm

Audie Cornish 12:27 ... the business community seems to have walked away from the awokening.

Kara Swisher 12:31 Correct. Mm-hmm.

Audie Cornish 12:32 And a bunch of them went, "Uh-... That really went too far, don't you think? And so they don't give a shit.

Kara Swisher 12:38 Right.

Bill Cohan 12:39 Well-

Audie Cornish 12:39 Like, honestly, I genuinely feel like they are going on yachts and building up fortresses for themselves, and they no longer feel actually engaged with the country in a lot of ways. And I don't say this as some, like, raving liberal. I'm just like, they are absent. They don't yank funding from things-

Bill Cohan 12:55 I think they do give a shit

Audie Cornish 12:56 ... They don't yank advertising from things.

Kara Swisher 12:58 Yeah. All right.

Audie Cornish 12:58 They go to every dinner they have at the White House. Like-

Kara Swisher 13:01 All right, well-

Audie Cornish 13:01 I don't know what the business community does now.

Kara Swisher 13:02 Well-

Bill Cohan 13:03 I think they do... I think they do give a shit. I, I think that they prefer not to be the nail that sticks up, that gets this madman's attention, and then puts them in the crosshairs, and they have to deal with some, uh, you know, uh, analogous event that, uh, that they didn't want to have to deal with because they spoke up. So I think they do care, but-

Audie Cornish 13:24 Rene Good took a risk. Billionaires won't, and I'm confused.

Kara Swisher 13:27 Yeah. All right.

Bill Cohan 13:28 Well-

Kara Swisher 13:28 That's a good point. Yeah, go ahead, Bill, last word.

Bill Cohan 13:29 That's why I say, if you've got a few money, why aren't you-

Kara Swisher 13:32 Why not?

Bill Cohan 13:32 -using it?

Kara Swisher 13:33 Yep, yep. I, I have to say I'm with Audie on this one. It's like they could... Th- they... This is not hard. None of this is particularly hard, and it doesn't affect shareholders.

Audie Cornish 13:40 Midterms are coming up. You can throw around all your free amendment money, you know, First Amendment money, then.

Kara Swisher 13:45 Yeah.

Audie Cornish 13:45 Will they?

Kara Swisher 13:46 Mm-mm.

Audie Cornish 13:46 I'm not holding my breath.

Kara Swisher 13:47 Well, now we're gonna talk about Venezuela. Here are some of the

Kara Swisher 13:50 highlights of the story since our last episode. President Trump will meet with oil industry executives on Friday at the White House after saying the US may subsidize the company's efforts to rebuild in Venezuela. In other words, the taxpayer will pay for it, which he estimated would take 18 months. Uh, probably just made that up. On Wednesday, President Trump said US control of Venezuela could last for years. The president has withdrawn the US from 66 international organizations and treaties, including climate groups. The US seized two oil tankers, including a Russian-flagged vessel linked to Venezuela in the North Atlantic. The na- national security leaders have said the administration does not plan to use ground troops in Venezuela. And of course, in related news, the US is actively discussing a, a potential offer to buy Greenland and hasn't ruled out military, uh, action. I mean, they're not just murdering US citizens. They're very busy on other things. Um, so, uh, Bill, start. How do you suspect these oil executives will be responding in this meeting? Um, because it's, it's a dicey situation for them, no matter what, and the price of oil, of course, is not as high as they'd like it to be.

Bill Cohan 14:53 Right. So how do you respond to this rampant imperialism, uh, if you are a CEO of a, of, of an oil company that might or might not benefit from this imperialism? Uh, I think that the economics of the situation do not necessarily lend itself to these companies wanting to go in there. Uh, it's gonna take billions of dollars to apparently fix up the refineries.

Kara Swisher 15:16 Which they also had lost previously, right?

Bill Cohan 15:19 They had lo-

Kara Swisher 15:19 In the previous-

Bill Cohan 15:20 Whatever, that's sunk, sunk money, different-

Kara Swisher 15:22 Sunk money

Bill Cohan 15:22 ... uh, companies-

Kara Swisher 15:23 Different

Bill Cohan 15:23 ... whatever.

Kara Swisher 15:24 Right.

Bill Cohan 15:24 Uh, the, you know, okay, so you give them a heads-up early that you're doing this, 'cause he loves to court their favor. Uh, but I, I don't think this is nearly going to be nearly as smooth and as easy. Uh, it never is, first of all. Look what happened i- in Iraq, and that was supposed to be over-

Kara Swisher 15:40 Yeah

Bill Cohan 15:40 ... in 10 days, right? Uh-

Kara Swisher 15:41 And good for oil companies. Similar words, actually.

Bill Cohan 15:44 Right, similar words. Didn't work out that way, and I don't see this working out that way either. B- besides, Kara, we are net exporters of oil now. Why, why do we need more oil-

Kara Swisher 15:54 Mm-hmm

Bill Cohan 15:54 ... from Venezuela? I mean, uh, this is just this crazy, uh, hubristic, uh, uh, ugly, uh, American behavior that I thought we would have learned from over the decades of doing similar things, especially in Latin America. And, and I'm not... I mean, obviously, if you're the CEO of one of these oil companies, you get invited to the White House by a madman, you know, you go, and you listen to what he has to say. But I think as an economic matter, it's going to take a long time before they, you know, raise their hands and say, "Oh, yes, me too. I want to get in here and, you know, extract this oil," because first of all, it's-

Kara Swisher 16:29 Even if they get a freebie from taxpayers, if he's able to do that at all, right? Which is questionable.

Audie Cornish 16:33 Yeah, we don't know the mechanisms about how this will work.

Bill Cohan 16:36 Maybe.

Audie Cornish 16:36 Also, Bill, I was wondering, in the era of this kind of Trump administration trans- transactional foreign policy and transactional business policy, can you do-

Bill Cohan 16:48 Everything's a transaction.

Audie Cornish 16:49 Yeah, so you can't do a no-strings-attached situation with the Trump administration, even as an oil company, I would think, right? Like, if they're gonna not... Like, even Nvidia has to give a slice. [chuckles]

Kara Swisher 17:00 Mm-hmm.

Audie Cornish 17:00 So, like, why wouldn't you-

Bill Cohan 17:01 Intel, Nvidia

Audie Cornish 17:01 ... and are companies starting to be wary about that?

Bill Cohan 17:05 Totally. I mean, there's... I mean, he said he's going to, you know, seize the oil that has apparently been, you know, ours and locked up apparently, and he's going to con- sell it on the market and control the proceeds of that sale. I mean, he's got his fingers in all these pies. It's this ultimate grift. You know, the Center for American Progress has got a website now that tracks the grift. It's nearly $2 billion since January-

Audie Cornish 17:32 Mm-hmm

Bill Cohan 17:32 ... uh, since he was inaugurated. This is another part of the grift. And, and, and I'm always, uh, very concerned about, you know, you have these big, uh, exogenous events, you know, like going into Venezuela or, or what happened in Minne- Minneapolis. What's... What are they doing? What are they trying to deflect from? All right?

Audie Cornish 17:51 Mm-hmm. Uh-

Bill Cohan 17:52 Uh, is it, is it the rewriting-

Kara Swisher 17:54 Epstein

Bill Cohan 17:54 ... of January 6th? Is it Jeffrey Epstein? Is it, you know, graft? I mean, taking down the East Wing of the White House, the $400 million ballroom. I mean, what kind of crazy thing is he trying to distract us from? It's Wag the Dog. It's Orwellian. Uh, and, you know, we're just-

Kara Swisher 18:12 So again, if you're-

Bill Cohan 18:12 There's no accountability for any of this.

Kara Swisher 18:13 So if you're an oil executive going to that meeting, what... Uh, I, I have talked to-

Bill Cohan 18:18 Mm-hmm

Kara Swisher 18:18 ... two of them, and they're like-

Bill Cohan 18:19 Mm-hmm

Kara Swisher 18:19 ... "This is not good for us, the price of oil," you know, the... I mean, economically, it's kind of insane, u- o- on some level.

Bill Cohan 18:25 Well, why are you gonna invest billions of dollars trying to extract oil in Venezuela when we're already net exporters of oil? I don't, I don't understand that.

Kara Swisher 18:33 In easier, in an easier situation, right?

Audie Cornish 18:34 I mean, the potential there is huge, right?

Kara Swisher 18:37 Right.

Audie Cornish 18:37 Like, they're sitting on the reserve. It's just, does this administration have the attention span? Is the country-

Kara Swisher 18:43 Right

Audie Cornish 18:43 ... willing to do what it takes to secure a long-term investment? I mean, no one has the appetite for a very long list of things, for the reasons you guys, everyone has said, which is, like, the ghost of Iraq and, and that whole conversation just haunts-

Bill Cohan 19:00 Anschluss

Audie Cornish 19:00 ... this foreign policy.

Bill Cohan 19:02 ... so many others. I mean, why are we- w- I mean, what, what if the reverse situation were happening? I mean, honestly, what if Venezuela came in, kidnapped Trump and Melania, took them off in Venezuela, and then started saying, "Okay, now we own Exxon, Chevron, you know, uh, and all, uh, and all the Conoco and all the other, uh, oil companies, and we're just gonna extract all the oil because we, we want to?" I mean-

Kara Swisher 19:24 Right. No. No, it doesn't-

Audie Cornish 19:25 I ask, too, Kara, I want to raise something with you-

Kara Swisher 19:27 Sure

Audie Cornish 19:27 ... to get your point of view, which is that there's a lot of people who would say all the Trump people really do is overt versions of things that the US has always done covertly.

Kara Swisher 19:37 Ah, yes.

Audie Cornish 19:38 So the long list of Latin American regime change and interventions, I, I'm just gonna pick a date and go back to, like, '51-

Kara Swisher 19:44 Panama

Audie Cornish 19:44 ... or something. Um, now the only difference is they just do it, right?

Kara Swisher 19:48 Right.

Audie Cornish 19:49 And instead of us playing this, like, absurd game with Donald Rumsfeld about oil, and whether it's the oil and whether it's not, and then Jim Baker is like, "Oh, it's definitely..." I mean, just nonsense. Now we just have people saying the thing.

Kara Swisher 20:01 They're saying it's oil.

Audie Cornish 20:02 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 20:02 It's oil.

Audie Cornish 20:02 And, like, is there something to be said for a, like, you're addressing everything more directly? And number two, what is... For Democrats, what's their response? What are you gonna tell a Venezuelan expat? Like, "Well, we really want that dictator to stay, because, uh-

Kara Swisher 20:18 Well, the, the-

Audie Cornish 20:18 ... we don't like the way they're doing this."

Kara Swisher 20:20 A- as, as many people point out, Ma- Maduro is a, is an autocrat and a very tyrannical one, right? It's not... Like, I think his own people knifed him in the back. That's my f- my take on the whole thing is, is, uh, Delcy, who looks harmless but is not in any way. Uh-

Audie Cornish 20:34 She was head of the intelligence-

Kara Swisher 20:36 That's correct. That's correct

Audie Cornish 20:36 ... department at one point, and she was head of the oil. Like, that regime is still there. They're violent, they're repressive, they're turning on each other, and if you're a Democrat, do you just say, "But, uh, actually, he needs to come to Congress, uh, appropriations, something, something," when you have all these people in the country saying, "We needed the help. Maybe this- maybe we want to thank Trump for doing this thing"?

Kara Swisher 20:56 They do. They do. I mean, but that's... It's hardly eventful. Who... He's not, he does- he's not the president of Venezuela, so who cares? He's, it's not his job to help them.

Audie Cornish 21:03 I mean, I think a lot of Venezuelans in Florida do. Like, I think-

Kara Swisher 21:06 Yes, expats who have left.

Audie Cornish 21:07 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 21:07 Right? They're a very different group of people than people... I just did a, a long, uh, podcast with some, a, a, an historian, uh, uh, David Sanger, and some others about this, and one of the things that was i- interesting to me was that there, there's a real rift between the people who 25% of the population left and the people who are there, and, you know, there's a whole... There... Again, not our country, not our problem.

Audie Cornish 21:29 Yeah, but we saw this with the Cuban community, and the Cuban Republican community [chuckles] right? Like, uh, Democrats lost that community for decades after, and now the secretary of state is basically the product of that political lineage.

Kara Swisher 21:42 Right. Exactly, which is why they're focusing on Cuba next. And, but one of the things is, I think, it would you... Crime in plain sight is what you're asking about. They're crime in plain sight. I do think there are... One of the things w- w- the response was from the Trump, "No one's ever done this," I'm like, "Hold the, hold my beer. Yes, they did. Panama. Yes, they did Haiti. Yes, we did Iraq, Iran." Like-

Bill Cohan 22:04 Chile.

Kara Swisher 22:05 Chile. Like, yes, we did, and it- except it... What Donald Trump is doing is not saying, "Oh, it's a democracy thing. Oh, it's because of this," He's... Or, "It's because of political prisoners," or, "It's because..." He's just saying, "Yeah, it's the oil." And then you have Howard Lutnick, who seems to be in a bathroom piping up, "And the minerals." Like, like, uh, that, I, I don't think... And I think actually the Trump administration has made, when people point to his grift, they go, "Well, he's doing it transparently." [chuckles] I'm like, "So cri- crime in plain sight is better, and it's on a scale that's unprecedented." That's really the more interesting part of it. Um, but it's still, it's still stupid. Like, I don't know what else to say. It's stupid, as Bill pointed out, because of the price of oil is gonna come down, crashing down, presumably.

Bill Cohan 22:48 Right. I mean, did he really think this through? I mean, you know, the oil executives will go to this meeting, but to get them to invest billions of dollars to refine or get that oil out of the ground and sell it into a market where the price of oil is low, relatively speaking, and we're already net exporters of oil, w- why are they gonna do that?

Kara Swisher 23:07 Yeah, the math.

Bill Cohan 23:07 I mean, did he think that through?

Audie Cornish 23:09 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 23:09 No.

Bill Cohan 23:09 Or, or maybe it's the-

Audie Cornish 23:10 And when you can't even get a guarantee from the government that they'll secure the workforce that would do this. I mean, there, there's been... There is no day two, uh, pro- like, yeah

Bill Cohan 23:18 ... And why are we invading another country, kidnapping their president, so we can take their natural resources?

Kara Swisher 23:25 Yeah, it does have-

Bill Cohan 23:26 Again, if the shoe were on the other foot-

Kara Swisher 23:28 Yeah

Bill Cohan 23:29 ... uh, I, I think there might be a little bit of an outrageous-

Kara Swisher 23:30 But that's sort of the old, "If Obama did this," where it's sort of way beyond, "If Obama did this," kind of thing. But in related news, speaking of which, um, speaking m- m- minerals and things we want there and, and, uh, strategically, indeed-

Audie Cornish 23:42 Is this about Greenland?

Kara Swisher 23:42 ... important place, Greenland.

Audie Cornish 23:44 [laughs]

Kara Swisher 23:44 Um, now, from what I understand from this panel I did, we can go to Greenland right now-

Audie Cornish 23:49 Yeah

Kara Swisher 23:49 ... and put as many bases on it as we want. We could put 300 bases. We had 16, 17 bases there, and we closed 16 of them. So we have every right to be in Greenland from a 1950s treaty.

Audie Cornish 24:02 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 24:02 So we don't even have to.

Audie Cornish 24:03 Yeah, '51.

Kara Swisher 24:04 '50... Like, uh, we don't have to do anything. We can just open all those things and, like, squat, I guess squat in Greenland. I think that's the way... I think that's the technical term for it. Um, so w- what do you... W- what happens... But, but it has created this, this NATO crisis, existential crisis, um, especially if he does something milit- with the military rather than just offer to buy it. Uh, thoughts? First Audie and then Bill.

Audie Cornish 24:31 Oh, no, I want to hear Bill first.

Kara Swisher 24:32 Bill.

Audie Cornish 24:32 I'm kind of curious.

Bill Cohan 24:33 Well-

Kara Swisher 24:33 Economically, is, [chuckles] is it a good- is it a good deal?

Bill Cohan 24:37 Look, he, he, he, he doesn't care, uh, as he's proven for years, doesn't care about NATO, so if he's provoking a confrontation with NATO and a way to get out of NATO, okay, fine. Or maybe it's bluster, and I mean-

Kara Swisher 24:51 Mm-hmm

Bill Cohan 24:52 ... do we need to buy Greenland? As you said, we can do already or are allowed to do what we want. It's just another example of this p-... crazy, wacky, uh, uh, imperialistic behavior that is so unbecoming, and you would think that we would have learned from our past mistakes in this area. A- and it makes people hate us and resent us, which is part of the reason we got a, a 9/11 situation, is that hate and resentment, uh, around the world, and he's fomenting it without any accountability. Uh, and to what end? I mean, again, if you, if you- there's a treaty that says we can already put bases there, and we haven't done it, well, why not just do that? Why are we provoking, uh, a, a confrontation with one of our best allies?

Kara Swisher 25:33 I think he wants to expand... He wants to be the first US president to expand territory since whoever it was.

Bill Cohan 25:39 Oh, God.

Audie Cornish 25:39 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 25:40 That's m- uh, that is, to me, the, the absolute reason.

Bill Cohan 25:42 So he wants to do this, his version of Louisiana Purchase, does he?

Kara Swisher 25:46 Yes. Yeah, yeah.

Audie Cornish 25:47 He could be.

Bill Cohan 25:48 Well, he wants his-

Audie Cornish 25:49 There are aspects of his foreign-

Bill Cohan 25:49 He wants his face on Mount Rushmore. He wants his face on the coins.

Audie Cornish 25:51 On a coin, yeah.

Bill Cohan 25:52 He, he's building his $400 million dollar, uh, uh, ballroom. I mean, this guy is-

Kara Swisher 25:58 Never gonna get built. I'm just telling you, never gonna get built.

Bill Cohan 26:01 Really?

Kara Swisher 26:01 That's my-

Bill Cohan 26:02 That's news

Kara Swisher 26:02 ... that's my feeling.

Audie Cornish 26:03 My thoughts is that, you know, I think it's baffling for all of us because he tends to, uh... First of all, his ideas of foreign policy are often frozen in particular, uh, vintage, right? It's like he really does just care a lot about tariffs. He thinks that's the way to do it, and so tariffs it is, you know. Um, w- uh, resources and transactional, uh [chuckles] I think Google called it, uh, transactional predation o- of resources. He sees himself as doing like what China is doing or something like that. Now, of course, it's very different. [chuckles] It's very, very different, and it's often, as you mentioned, Bill, um, undermining our allies, and I think that it is very... It's very difficult to watch in real time, the post-World War II world order and systems be not just chipped away but kind of kicked in the knee. And maybe, like retirement-

Bill Cohan 26:57 Or another part of the body.

Audie Cornish 26:58 Yeah. [laughing]

Kara Swisher 26:58 Yeah. You can go right-

Audie Cornish 26:59 Maybe like retirement, it was always a myth, you know?

Kara Swisher 27:01 Right.

Audie Cornish 27:01 Like, maybe it was never gonna last more than 50 to 80 years. But we are witnessing the falling apart of something. That doesn't mean that something else can't be rebuilt in its place, but, uh, for sure, I think that it might be baffling to the average person 'cause you're like, "Why are we suddenly talking about Greenland?" And you can say that almost every week.

Kara Swisher 27:20 Right.

Audie Cornish 27:20 Why are we talking about X? Why are we talking about Z?

Kara Swisher 27:22 I mean, let me, let me just add in, one of the... Greenland certainly is a strategic, and there are minerals to be had, whatever, that kind of stuff. But-

Bill Cohan 27:29 U- under a lot of ice.

Kara Swisher 27:31 U- under a lot of ice. Uh, by the way, Greenland isn't green, and Iceland isn't ice. Um, I would like to point that out. Um-

Audie Cornish 27:37 Thank you for that. [laughing]

Bill Cohan 27:39 I love that.

Kara Swisher 27:39 Uh, anytime, anytime. Um, but to me, the best economic thing to do from a business point of view is to help Ukraine because that is a country, if it was renovated, they have high technical expertise. Uh, we would, we would... Speaking of US benefiting economically, that's our best economic bet, to get-

Audie Cornish 27:57 That's, like, the one thing we won't do, [chuckles] right?

Kara Swisher 27:59 We won't do.

Audie Cornish 27:59 It's like we're doing everything but.

Kara Swisher 28:01 Which is shove the Russians out and create a very vibrant, technologically forward, uh... W- we would make a lot of bank there versus a Greenland or a Venezuela or anywhere else. To me, if that's your criteria is, "What's the best deal?" To me, Ukraine is the best deal from an- if you're just gonna be that venal of, about economics.

Audie Cornish 28:19 Can I raise one more thing that's sort of-

Kara Swisher 28:21 Sure

Audie Cornish 28:21 ... baffling to me? You have a generation of Republicans in MAGA world, whatever, who were against the forever wars. You have Navy SEALs in Congress now, lawmakers. They're there because they were against forever wars, they were against our actions abroad and interventions, and they hate the neocons, and they're kicking dirt over Dick Cheney's grave, and I don't understand them right now. I don't know if this is gonna be like the fiscal hawks who just sort of, like, squirm away, [chuckles] you know, and don't say anything about what he's doing. But when it comes to foreign policy, the far right that is against interventionism has lost on every single argument, like, whether it's Iran, whether it's whatever, like-

Kara Swisher 29:04 You see Greene talking

Audie Cornish 29:05 ... he doesn't care what they think about that.

Kara Swisher 29:06 There are people. Greene has been talking about it, Mass. Uh, uh, there's a-

Bill Cohan 29:10 Well, she resigned.

Audie Cornish 29:11 But it's like-

Kara Swisher 29:12 She resigned

Audie Cornish 29:12 ... leaving-

Kara Swisher 29:13 Yeah

Audie Cornish 29:13 ... nev- gives zero F's anyway. [chuckles]

Kara Swisher 29:15 Yeah.

Audie Cornish 29:15 Like Rand Paul. I mean, it's sort of the same handful of people.

Kara Swisher 29:19 Right.

Audie Cornish 29:19 And I legit... It's like Lindsey Graham has gotten his wings again.

Kara Swisher 29:24 Right.

Audie Cornish 29:24 Um, and all those people who allegedly didn't want intervention are oddly silent-

Kara Swisher 29:30 Yeah

Audie Cornish 29:30 ... in these moments.

Kara Swisher 29:32 Uh, Bill, last question here: Um, is there any economic goodness to this?

Bill Cohan 29:37 Of, of trying to-

Kara Swisher 29:39 Greenland

Bill Cohan 29:39 ... you know, buy Greenland? I mean, [exhales] f- again-

Kara Swisher 29:42 You're a deal guy

Bill Cohan 29:43 ... first of all, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's so unattractive-

Kara Swisher 29:47 Mm-hmm

Bill Cohan 29:47 ... the way he's going about it and doing what he's doing. Are there economic benefits? There might be, uh, Kara. How, how the hell are we gonna know?

Kara Swisher 29:55 Mm-hmm.

Bill Cohan 29:55 I mean, how do we know right now whether there might be economic benefits? First of all-

Kara Swisher 29:59 What I mean is, if a client came to you and said, "I want to buy Greenland," what would be the thing as an investment banker you would do? [chuckles]

Bill Cohan 30:06 "I want to buy Greenland? Are you out of your fucking mind?"

Kara Swisher 30:09 Oh, okay. [chuckles] That's-

Bill Cohan 30:10 Going to piss off one of our best allies to try to obtain this, you know, block of ice, you know, that may have strategic value, and if it's, like, strategic defensive value, we al- as you said, we already have the right to put bases up there. Why don't we close 16 of the 17? Let's open them again or whatever it is. If, if, if it's, if it's, like, controlling the Arctic and being, uh, having a policy matter and a national defense issue, yeah, okay, I get that. I get that, but what, you want to mine for minerals under-

Kara Swisher 30:38 So are you out of your fucking mind? [chuckles]

Bill Cohan 30:38 ... to a mile of ice?

Kara Swisher 30:39 Yeah.

Bill Cohan 30:39 Yeah, well, that might work, maybe, you know, with global warming. Of course, that's not an issue anymore. We're not, we're not warming up anymore, apparently, so it's gonna be, like, many millenniums-

Kara Swisher 30:49 Bill is-

Bill Cohan 30:49 ... before we get under that ice.

Kara Swisher 30:50 I don't think he ever spoke to a client like that.

Audie Cornish 30:51 You know, and I'm curious-

Kara Swisher 30:52 Uh, we're gonna move on.

Bill Cohan 30:53 Oh, I, that's-

Kara Swisher 30:54 Go ahead.

Bill Cohan 30:54 That's the way I would speak with him now.

Audie Cornish 30:54 Last minute, last thing. One thing, Bill: I think there's so much foreign policy, uh, action that I think when you look at, say, the Abraham Accords for the Trump administration, they feel like if you can get people doing business together, that inherently creates the, um, environment for peaceful interaction. That the, the money is what is going to make those things work, not arbitrary red lines in diplomatic conference rooms.

Bill Cohan 31:20 M- maybe-

Audie Cornish 31:21 And I, I just so want your opinion

Bill Cohan 31:22 ... but so far, it's just been a graft for, to the Trump administration-

Audie Cornish 31:25 Yeah

Bill Cohan 31:25 ... and the Trump family.

Kara Swisher 31:26 Yes.

Bill Cohan 31:26 It's all been about graft.

Audie Cornish 31:27 Graft.

Bill Cohan 31:27 It hasn't been about opening up, really, you know?

Kara Swisher 31:30 Well, technically grift, but graft, too. All right, when we get... [chuckles] Uh, we're gonna take a quick break. When we come back, uh-

Bill Cohan 31:35 Maybe I've coined a new term

Kara Swisher 31:36 ... Bill's, Bill's and my favorite topic, Warner Brothers rebuffs Paramount again, no surprise. I'm back with Audie Cornish

Kara Swisher 31:43 and Bill Cohan. Warner Brothers Discovery has rejected Paramount's latest buyout offer, urging its shareholders to stick with Netflix. Warner Brothers said Paramount's bid was not superior to the $72 billion Netflix offer for its studios and streaming businesses. The board also flagged the uncertainty risk around Paramount's offer, saying-... it would effectively be a leveraged buyout, the largest in history. This comes after Larry Ellison stepped in to personally backstop Paramount's offer with a forty billion dollar equity guarantee, and just a little while ago, Paramount reaffirmed its thirty dollar a share all-cash offer for Warner Bros. No more, Bill. Um, you've done a lot of reporting on this, and let me just add in how Versant also, V- Versant is what I like to call it, um, like croissant, uh, factors in all of this. Comcast completed its spin-off of Versant this week, which includes MS Now, CNBC, and other networks. Versant shares closed down thirteen percent on their first day and now down twenty-nine percent for the week, although that is index funds repurposing themselves, according to m- many investors, and I think that's correct. All well, Paramount has been arguing that Warner's cable channels stub are worth around a dollar a share. Um, uh, let's talk a little bit about this. Now, Audie works for CNN, which is-

Audie Cornish 32:50 Yeah, that's my disclaimer.

Kara Swisher 32:51 That's your disclaimer.

Audie Cornish 32:52 WBD is the parent company.

Kara Swisher 32:53 Is the parent company.

Audie Cornish 32:54 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 32:54 Um, I am-

Bill Cohan 32:55 For now

Kara Swisher 32:55 ... a contributor to them, but I will be leaving if [chuckles] if Paramount gets it, so I don't ... And I don't give a fuck. Um, so I'm gonna ... Audie, you may weigh in as you want. Uh, I am happy to wait.

Audie Cornish 33:05 No, I am literally here to learn on this front. [chuckles]

Kara Swisher 33:07 Okay. All right.

Audie Cornish 33:08 Yeah. [chuckles]

Kara Swisher 33:08 Okay, Bill-

Audie Cornish 33:08 Bill's done the reporting

Kara Swisher 33:08 ... why don't you walk us through this and what happens next?

Bill Cohan 33:11 Sure. Well, the, the, the key point of what just happened was this idea that the Paramount offer, uh, at thirty dollars a share is the- deemed by the board of WBD not to be, quote, "superior at this time." Okay, 'cause if they did deem it to be superior, uh, whatever that means, that's a sort of a vague term, which comes- a lot of judgment comes into that. Uh, uh, if they did deem it to be superior, they could break their merger agreement with Netflix and turn their attention to the Paramount deal. They would owe Netflix a breakup fee of two point eight billion dollars, and then, you know, we'd have a, uh, the bidding war would begin again. Uh, so they, they did what you would expect them to do, which was say: "Why are we gonna ... You know, we've g- we've got this merger agreement with Netflix. We're happy with it. We think it's worth more, and, uh, there's no reason a- at this moment to, to change that recommendation." That doesn't mean that they, um, uh, if Paramount, uh, were to raise its bid, as it sort of indicated that it, uh, might do because it said it wasn't, hadn't made its best and final offer, but yet it hasn't done anything beyond thirty dollars yet, that they wouldn't change that recommendation and open up the bidding war again.

Kara Swisher 34:18 They, they did note they would listen. One of the board members noted that on CNBC. Like, if they wanna lob another number-

Audie Cornish 34:24 Of course

Kara Swisher 34:24 ... over, we're happy to take it.

Bill Cohan 34:26 Well, they're, they're, they are in what is called Revlon mode now of selling. They have to sell the company to the highest bidder. They are required, you know, by Delaware law, essentially, to do that, and that's why they're constantly reevaluating this, uh, these two bids, and once again, they've ... I mean, there's no difference between uh, uh, this, you know, the December 4th bid, final bid that Paramount made of thirty dollars a share hasn't changed in a month. So if, if the, if they wanna upset the apple cart here, they are going to have to raise their bid. Now, they may not want to-

Kara Swisher 34:57 You also had noted these fees of, uh, that Paramount wants more control over, uh, certain loans and the, the, the, the-

Bill Cohan 35:05 Yes

Kara Swisher 35:05 ... there's a lot of money there.

Bill Cohan 35:07 So Warner Bros. is concerned about the, uh, way that Paramount would let them operate their own company between signing and closing, and since it's like an 18-month process generally to get this kind of a deal, uh, uh, regulators' approval, both in the EU and here, to get it closed, they need to know that they can operate their business in the normal course. And, uh, Paramount put several covenants into their proposed merger agreement that would limit the flexibility that Warner Bros. has during that period, and Warner Bros. believes that that would cost them-

Kara Swisher 35:40 Uh, which Netflix has said, "No problem."

Bill Cohan 35:42 Oh, Netflix has said, you know, "Do what you want,"

Kara Swisher 35:45 Mm-hmm

Bill Cohan 35:45 ... which is another reason that they're gone with the Netflix deal.

Kara Swisher 35:47 Yeah.

Bill Cohan 35:47 Netflix also said, "You, and if you don't take our deal, we're gonna walk away,"

Kara Swisher 35:51 Mm-hmm

Bill Cohan 35:51 ... which, you know, put a little gun to their head, and so they-

Kara Swisher 35:53 Mm

Bill Cohan 35:53 ... you know, they went with the bird in the hand, and it, at the time, it was the better deal and made total sense, and it still basically makes total sense. It's a real toss-up now-

Kara Swisher 36:02 Mm-hmm

Bill Cohan 36:02 ... because of the value of this global network stu- stub, the-

Kara Swisher 36:07 Mm-hmm

Bill Cohan 36:07 ... you know, part of the business where Audie works, CNN-

Kara Swisher 36:11 Mm-hmm

Bill Cohan 36:11 ... uh, is potentially going to be spun off under the Netflix deal, and so the value of that business as a spun-off entity comes into play. Under the Paramount deal, they're buying the whole company, so that's a moot point. So, you know, that's why, you know, trying to judge the value of the two offers-

Kara Swisher 36:27 So what, what it's valued at, right?

Bill Cohan 36:28 Yes.

Kara Swisher 36:28 And certain people is saying three to five, three, three dollars a share now. She was three to five.

Bill Cohan 36:33 Three dollars now.

Kara Swisher 36:33 Three and a half.

Bill Cohan 36:34 The chairman of Warner Bros. Discovery board said on CNBC, "Three to five dollars." Uh, Morgan Stanley says, you know, "A dollar fifty." Uh, the, the, uh, Paramount people say, "A dollar forty." Uh, so-

Kara Swisher 36:47 And there's all debt issues around. If they pull some more debt off, it could go up, if, if, if, uh, if, when they-

Bill Cohan 36:52 Yes

Kara Swisher 36:53 ... there's what?

Bill Cohan 36:53 It's, uh-

Kara Swisher 36:53 Fifteen billion dollars in debt?

Bill Cohan 36:54 There's a m- uh, a moment, uh, at the moment, they're talking about putting fifteen billion dollars on Audie's company, and, you know, is that too much? Is that gonna-

Kara Swisher 37:02 Can you pay for that, Audie? [chuckles]

Audie Cornish 37:03 Yeah, that's why I'm wearing a quarter zip.

Kara Swisher 37:05 [chuckles] Yeah.

Audie Cornish 37:05 I can't afford the full zip. Yeah.

Bill Cohan 37:08 But it's not a vest. It's a full quarter zip.

Kara Swisher 37:10 [chuckles]

Bill Cohan 37:10 If you really wanna pay down that debt, you may need to wear a vest.

Audie Cornish 37:13 [chuckles] Exactly.

Bill Cohan 37:14 Uh, so I mean, there are a lot of s- kind of subtle nuances going on here, which, which really puts Paramount, you know, in a, in a bad position, to be honest. Uh, if they really wanna win, they just have to spend more of Larry's money.

Kara Swisher 37:28 Larry's money. He's gotta get Daddy. Nepo mogul has to get Daddy to pay more.

Bill Cohan 37:31 More, more, more.

Kara Swisher 37:31 You know, when this started, did I tell you? Not as smart as you think. Like, and you said they have smart advisors. I'm like, "Still dumb."

Bill Cohan 37:38 They do, but I don't think they're listening to them.

Kara Swisher 37:40 ... No, they aren't.

Bill Cohan 37:40 I think that's part of the problem.

Kara Swisher 37:41 Well, 'cause still dumb, right?

Bill Cohan 37:43 Right.

Kara Swisher 37:43 And you can see that over at CBS, very dumb, what's happening there. Like, what a way to run a network right into the wall-

Bill Cohan 37:50 [chuckles]

Kara Swisher 37:50 -like on a daily, on the daily-

Bill Cohan 37:51 A whole other topic

Kara Swisher 37:51 ... essentially. We won't get into it-

Bill Cohan 37:53 Yeah

Kara Swisher 37:53 ... but they sucked.

Bill Cohan 37:54 Mm.

Kara Swisher 37:55 Um, so, so when is- w- when- what happens next? They have to just raise the price, and then what does Netflix do? What is-

Bill Cohan 38:02 Well, they don't have to raise the price.

Kara Swisher 38:02 And then there's the whole Trump thing. See, let me just-

Bill Cohan 38:05 Yes

Kara Swisher 38:05 ... add one more question.

Bill Cohan 38:06 Yep. Mm-hmm.

Kara Swisher 38:06 There's the whole Trump thing, which they've touted their friendship with Trump, but as far as I'm concerned, he's a little busy. I don't think he's gonna w- and he's got limited time before the midterms, that dragging this thing out is not good for Paramount. Because the closer you get to the election, and if the Democrats take over, they will not get it through either. They don't- they will lose that ability to control the process 'cause Trump will be essentially, you know, left naked without clothes, right? Essentia- w- he won't be able to help his friend Larry. I'm sure right now he can't help his friend Larry. I think less and less every passing day. But your thoughts?

Bill Cohan 38:41 Well, e- everybody's now, quote-unquote, "Trump's friend," and, uh, Larry's his friend. Ted Sarandos is his friend, you know, even though he's a bit-

Kara Swisher 38:48 Right, he's played it beautifully, I will say.

Bill Cohan 38:50 Uh, uh, but he, he's a, you know, big Democrat. His wife was ambassador-

Kara Swisher 38:54 Mm-hmm

Bill Cohan 38:54 ... you know, under Obama. I mean, so, uh, every case-

Kara Swisher 38:57 Not sure that matters anymore.

Bill Cohan 38:58 No, uh, I mean, e- everyb- you know, he wants fealty paid to him, and if you've got a big deal that you want to get through, you're going to pay that fealty because it's the only way to do it.

Kara Swisher 39:07 Except I don't know if he has that power as much as everybody... I don't think he will rush to Larry's aid.

Bill Cohan 39:13 Really? Tru- he loves to get involved in this, Kara.

Kara Swisher 39:15 Yeah, mm, he's busy with other things now.

Bill Cohan 39:17 Oh, he's busy.

Kara Swisher 39:17 He's got Greenland.

Bill Cohan 39:18 He seems-

Kara Swisher 39:18 No, I'm telling you.

Bill Cohan 39:19 Right, he's our- he, he's, he's our most healthy president ever. He's-

Kara Swisher 39:22 There's n- there's no time

Bill Cohan 39:23 ... you know, he, he doesn't sleep. He-

Kara Swisher 39:25 There's no time. There's no time.

Bill Cohan 39:26 I hope you're right.

Kara Swisher 39:27 Time is running-

Bill Cohan 39:27 He shouldn't be involved in this.

Kara Swisher 39:28 All right, so, uh, so far I've been right about all of this.

Bill Cohan 39:30 Okay.

Kara Swisher 39:30 So, [chuckles] as I say to Scott all the time, but what happens next?

Bill Cohan 39:32 Isn't that going to be the title of your memoir?

Kara Swisher 39:34 It's... Yes, yes-

Bill Cohan 39:34 Yeah

Kara Swisher 39:34 ... I'm right. [laughs]

Bill Cohan 39:35 Yeah. Uh, look, what happens next is the, the, the- their tender offer is open till January 21st, and they're gonna, between now and then, go around their hostile tender offer that, uh, Paramount has made. They're gonna go around to the big shareholders, State Street-

Kara Swisher 39:48 And you noted it was only a small amount.

Bill Cohan 39:50 Right.

Kara Swisher 39:50 It was only like point-

Bill Cohan 39:50 Well, so far, but that, it's understandable because there are a lot of conditions to this deal that are kind of... Like they, mm, the tender offer can't happen unless they have a merger agreement with Warner Brothers. Well, they're not gonna get a merger agreement with Warner Brothers unless there's a superior offer. So, uh, you know, basically, people aren't gonna tender, but they are gonna go until maybe the last minute at, at most, at best, but they are gonna go around and make this case that their $30 a share all-cash deal is superior to Netflix because of this business of the, uh, Audie's company not being worth this three to five dollars a share or-

Kara Swisher 40:27 Mm-hmm

Bill Cohan 40:27 ... whatever it's worth, so.

Kara Swisher 40:27 Which is kind of technical and confusing to most people, right?

Bill Cohan 40:30 It is, but this is the kind of thing that these guys get into the weeds about.

Kara Swisher 40:34 And so what is your, what i- what's the ne- the, the, raising the price is the only thing to do, right? Correct.

Bill Cohan 40:39 I, uh, uh, raising the price to around $34 a share is the only way-

Kara Swisher 40:43 Clean

Bill Cohan 40:43 ... for Paramount to win this thing. Otherwise, it's going to Netflix.

Kara Swisher 40:46 What about the Saudis? What about the-

Bill Cohan 40:47 Well-

Kara Swisher 40:47 There's also-

Bill Cohan 40:48 You know, it's Larry's... Another $10 billion for Larry.

Kara Swisher 40:51 Mm-hmm, and? You're-

Bill Cohan 40:51 That's it's t- it's, it's, you know, a dollar a share is two and a half billion.

Kara Swisher 40:54 Will they? 'Cause it's already non-economic, Bill. This thing is already so ridiculously high.

Bill Cohan 40:58 They've decided that they have to have it. They've made seven, uh, bids. Uh, I suspect they're gonna do it. I suspect they will raise their offer to 34, and they will win. I hate to s- you know, I, I think they will end up winning, but I, you know, I could, could be wrong. I mean, there's no way without raising this bid that, that Warner Brothers is gonna, uh, change its recommendation. Not gonna happen.

Kara Swisher 41:22 I, I, I don't know about that, but I think if they do win, they're not gonna get it through. That's too much. The time is too short, and by that time, it will be the Democrats calling for blood, and then it'll be ugly.

Bill Cohan 41:33 Well, there's also a risk that Netflix won't get their deal done either.

Kara Swisher 41:37 Yes, but less- I mean, that's fine, but it's not the same thing, right? It's not like this, "I'm the best..." Their whole argument has been, "I'm the best friend of, um-

Bill Cohan 41:45 Well, right. It's, uh, it, it will-

Kara Swisher 41:46 ... and it's a stupid argument.

Bill Cohan 41:47 Well, [exhales] it's so transactional. You know, "What has Larry, what have you done for me this week? Did you donate to my ballroom this week or not? Did you, you know, have you made-

Kara Swisher 41:56 But then Ted could do the same thing. A lot of the stuff Larry can do, Ted can do.

Bill Cohan 42:00 Comcast did it-

Kara Swisher 42:01 Mm-hmm

Bill Cohan 42:02 ... which was quite surprising.

Kara Swisher 42:03 Mm, not to me.

Bill Cohan 42:04 Uh, but, you know, everybody is paying fealty now, uh-

Kara Swisher 42:07 Right

Bill Cohan 42:07 ... Kara.

Kara Swisher 42:08 So Audie, any thoughts? Any thoughts? [chuckles]

Audie Cornish 42:10 I know that coming from NPR, uh, and coming from, like, nonprofit, like, "Oh, what are we gonna do? The politics will change," that I was not fully prepared for, like, corporate media.

Kara Swisher 42:24 Mm-hmm.

Audie Cornish 42:24 And it has been an education.

Kara Swisher 42:26 Yeah.

Audie Cornish 42:26 Like, for sure, it's been an education. I think one of the hundreds of thousands of reasons for me not to comment on this is kind of for the thing you guys are say, are saying, which is, like, we're, we're in the realm of, like, personalities and regulation and the government [chuckles] And, and so it's not the same as sitting around talking about a business deal or even a hostile takeover. It's kind of something else, and if you notice people not speaking up, I mean, A, w- we can't, right? 'Cause it, we're in the middle of a regulatory issue. But, B, to say it's above our pay grade is an understatement.

Kara Swisher 43:02 Right. That's a fair point.

Audie Cornish 43:03 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 43:03 That's a fair point. But by the way, over at NPR, they've said, "Fuck you, government," and they're doing great, just fine. She's-

Audie Cornish 43:09 I had breakfast with a NPR host this morning-

Kara Swisher 43:11 Yeah

Audie Cornish 43:11 ... and he was like: We don't even want to talk about it, [chuckles] frankly.

Kara Swisher 43:14 Also, but the thing is, they've moved on, and they're doing rather well under Catherine Neal because-

Audie Cornish 43:18 It was always, like I said, it was always haunting us there.

Kara Swisher 43:21 There. Now it doesn't.

Audie Cornish 43:21 You know?

Kara Swisher 43:21 Now they're, like, free.

Audie Cornish 43:22 And now it's like, now you gotta just compete in the marketplace. But lucky for them, they do fundamentally have a brand people trust.

Kara Swisher 43:28 Yeah, yeah. I think the way to go-

Bill Cohan 43:30 But, uh, for a president-

Kara Swisher 43:30 ... is fuck you.

Bill Cohan 43:32 Uh, for a president to be sticking his fingers into a individual deal, you know, is [chuckles] not normal. There are agencies that are supposed to be at arm's length that deal with these issues, and that's the way-

Kara Swisher 43:45 Yes

Bill Cohan 43:45 ... it has worked.

Kara Swisher 43:46 Yes, yes.

Bill Cohan 43:47 But this president-

Kara Swisher 43:47 Yes, Bill

Bill Cohan 43:47 ... likes to-

Kara Swisher 43:48 Yep... You know, I have people often, often, let me, let me end on this. I have a lot of people, like, always go- a couple years ago would be like: "Can you believe he did this?" And I was like: "I do. I believe it. He's done it seven times before." Let me tell you, he's- he does it- uh, see Greenland, see Venezuela, see-

Bill Cohan 44:06 That's why Carnegie does have time for this.

Kara Swisher 44:08 Yeah.

Bill Cohan 44:08 He makes time for this kind of crazy shit.

Kara Swisher 44:10 Mm, I don't think so. I don't.

Bill Cohan 44:12 All right, well...

Kara Swisher 44:12 We- I just, I just, this, I think they have taken too-- far too long for this.

Bill Cohan 44:17 Well-

Kara Swisher 44:17 They, they could have done the thirty-four-

Bill Cohan 44:19 I hope you are right

Kara Swisher 44:20 ... if they were smarter. But we'll see. We'll see. And by the way, and if they don't do it, he is holding a very expensive, leaky l... Larry has bought himself an expensive, leaky yacht, uh, that he is gonna not know how to unload, 'cause that's-- there's no way around. It's too small.

Bill Cohan 44:34 But, but without doing this, it's only a six billion, only, only a six billion dollar equity bet for him.

Kara Swisher 44:40 Sure.

Bill Cohan 44:40 So if he loses six billion-

Kara Swisher 44:41 But I'm saying he's just a, he's just a-

Bill Cohan 44:43 Yeah, no. They're, that's why they're serious about trying to do it-

Kara Swisher 44:46 You know, he's a hobbit

Bill Cohan 44:47 ... 'cause they know that they're at a-

Kara Swisher 44:48 He, he's a hobbit

Bill Cohan 44:48 ... they know that they're at a strategic-

Kara Swisher 44:49 Yeah

Bill Cohan 44:49 ... disadvantage with, without it.

Kara Swisher 44:51 Yeah, and even with it, still a hobbit. Anyway, um, let's go, uh, 'cause, hello, YouTube, by the way. All right, let's go on a quick break. When we come back, Grok hits despicable new lows. Oh, we're back with another headline.

Kara Swisher 45:03 Elon Musk's AI chatbot, Grok, is facing criticism from governments around the world as it continues to create sexualized images of women and children. Grok Im- Imagine, an AI image generator, includes a spicy mode that can generate adult content. Meanwhile, Musk's xAI says it raised twenty billion dollars in funding, round exceeding the target of fifteen billion, including from Fidelity. Um, just the, just today, they're making, uh, uh, filthy images of the woman who was killed in Minneapolis. Um, the European countries are, are losing their minds. You haven't heard word one from Sundar Pichai at, at, uh, Google, or, um, Tim Cook at Apple, who would've, should've been to... CSAM is supposed to be against the law. So you two, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're soiling yourselves in public by not d- doing anything about this. That's my point of view. But why-- This funding round suggests investors don't care about these issues. I'd love each of you to weigh in. Bill, you first on, uh, on what's happening here.

Bill Cohan 46:00 Well, as a, a, a great American once said, uh, "Kara, uh, X is a Nazi porn bar," and so-

Kara Swisher 46:07 No, that's me.

Bill Cohan 46:08 Yes, it was. Thank you. Uh, and it certainly is. It certainly is, and this is just another example of it. Uh, but look, from a business point of view, uh, xAI and the merger between xAI and X saved X, right? It saved, uh, Fidelity's investment in X, as well as Larry Ellison's and Marc Andreessen's, and, uh, you know, uh, uh, a- and other friends of Elon's. Uh, so I guess, and the banks, who are about sitting on thirteen billion dollars of, of loans that they might lose, uh, a lot of money on. Uh, so that merger, uh, uh, saved the X deal, which, you know, gotta give, I guess, e- uh, Elon credit for devising and conceptualizing that, and now he's raising twenty billion dollars at a what? At three hundred and fifty billion dollar valuation or whatever it is. I mean, uh, you know, I guess from a purely business point of view, Kara, you have to admire, uh, Elon's ability to, uh, m- make a chicken salad out of chicken shit, uh, and you've got to admire, I guess, the fact that suddenly he's now worth, you know, seven hundred billion dollars because of SpaceX, et cetera, going public. I mean, so the guy knows how to make money for himself, a trillion-dollar pay package out of Tesla. Uh, his old pay package was reinstated by the courts. I mean, so, all right, on one level, you have to kind of admire that if you're an American who believes in sort of Darwinian capitalism. On- on the other hand, you know, you expect Elon Musk, and you know this better than anyone, to, to e- eliminate these images and go f-, you know, whole hog on trying to reduce the Nazi porn bar aspect of what he's created here.

Kara Swisher 47:59 So why haven't... This is CSAM. This is, th- this is porn of children. Like, I, I think he would utterly allow porn of women. I think he's, he's a misogynist, so that's sort of, that's w- water under the bridge for him, so to speak. But with children, this is something that usually sets off a firestorm, a problem. Any reason why they're, like, fine with CSAM, Sam?

Bill Cohan 48:22 I mean, to, I mean, again, does E- Elon Musk, uh, like to do the right thing when it comes to these things, or does he just like to claim it's free speech and, you know, whatever? Let it, let it ride. I mean, you know, he reinstated, uh, Trump. You know, he, you know, i- I don't... I, I wouldn't, uh, lose sleep or, or hold my breath thinking that Elon Musk is going to do the right thing here. But, but, you know, he might do that one simple, basic thing that is so obvious that it has to be done, meanwhile, leaving the rest of the Nazi porn bar to thrive. So-

Kara Swisher 48:55 Yeah. Audie, thoughts?

Audie Cornish 48:57 Uh, I'm curious about the people who, you know, like the First Lady, [chuckles] or, or Ted Cruz, who were so touting the Take It Down Act, you know, which was supposed to, um, a- allow people a chance to take down non-consensual images, sexualized images, and-

Kara Swisher 49:17 Marsha Blackburn?

Audie Cornish 49:18 Marsha Blackburn. Yeah, again, it's one of those moments where you're like: Do you, do you actually care about this, or do you not care about this? The other thing I think about is there's this weird collision course between-... the very muddied aspect of AI and that culture, which says, "Onward, no matter what," and a pretty broad-based, not quite a moral panic yet, but very much something brewing among parents and in school systems where they're like, "Ban phones!" And, "We're Australia, we're saying kids can't even be on there." We're on a collision course, and sometimes it feels like the industry, their plan is just to outrace us. Build all the data centers you can. Make this thing your- make your born bot quickly. Just do it all while Trump is okay with it, um, and, and then people can't really stop you.

Kara Swisher 50:04 Yeah.

Audie Cornish 50:05 But I don't-

Kara Swisher 50:05 That is their policy for everything, by the way.

Audie Cornish 50:07 Yeah, and I do-

Kara Swisher 50:08 Like Amazon and taxes, uh-

Audie Cornish 50:09 But it's not 1995

Kara Swisher 50:11 ... Google and Steve. Yeah.

Audie Cornish 50:11 Nobody is looking at the industry and being like, "Well, they do have our interests at heart-

Kara Swisher 50:16 Right

Audie Cornish 50:16 ... and they might cure cancer."

Kara Swisher 50:17 Right.

Audie Cornish 50:17 No one is saying that.

Kara Swisher 50:18 Right. [chuckles]

Audie Cornish 50:18 Everybody is just like: "I want to throw my phone out the window. I hate this. I'm not on socials anymore. I'm a teen in a Luddite club." Like, the backlash is real, and I'm very curious about going forward, if that turns into a po-

Kara Swisher 50:32 Oh, I-

Audie Cornish 50:32 ... political action, so to speak.

Kara Swisher 50:34 I-

Audie Cornish 50:34 Is there a candidate who represents that?

Kara Swisher 50:35 I- I will speak to that. I think the CSAM, uh, stuff is gonna kill them. They're gonna... They're... This is not, this is not a-- This is where it stops, and you've noticed that, that Google settled with the parents of Unchat, uh, character AI. Uh, I don't know what the settlement is, and I did interview, uh, that mother, and I've interviewed... I, I'm-

Audie Cornish 50:53 Yeah

Kara Swisher 50:53 ... I'm, I'm- I've been interviewing a lot of these parents 'cause it's a big issue.

Bill Cohan 50:57 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 50:57 Since 2023-

Bill Cohan 50:59 Incredible issues

Kara Swisher 50:59 ... I've been doing it. Yeah.

Audie Cornish 51:00 And, but at a certain point, it won't be settlements, right? It'll be, "You know what? Maybe we're gonna have this conversation-

Kara Swisher 51:06 Publicly

Audie Cornish 51:06 ... with the public in public."

Kara Swisher 51:07 Right, right. I'm not sure why she-

Audie Cornish 51:08 Yeah

Kara Swisher 51:09 ... Megan-

Audie Cornish 51:09 No, I'm not-- This is in no way judging-

Kara Swisher 51:11 I don't know

Audie Cornish 51:11 ... the decision of parents

Kara Swisher 51:12 Megan happens to be aware much.

Audie Cornish 51:12 But I'm saying, like-

Kara Swisher 51:13 No, but I, I-

Audie Cornish 51:13 ... this is how movements start.

Kara Swisher 51:15 I, I think the reason Google settled is because they are not protected under Section 230 on this one.

Audie Cornish 51:21 Oh, interesting.

Kara Swisher 51:21 And their arguments were not... I, I, ultimately, if this stuff gets out, it's very ugly for them, and I wish one of the parents would just say, "You know what? I'm going to just take you to court." It's just expensive for them. It's exhausting. Their child has committed suicide. Um, but the same thing with these imagery, that it does... I, I think there, there is a group of people that will not settle, and they will try everything to settle because so much of this stuff is so heinous. And also, what you- once you... What, what I had is one of the parents read the dialogue, and when any parent hears it, you're like, "Put those people in jail." And so to me, they're headed for a perp walk, is what I feel. Like, if they're in this, in this issue, and it's well beyond what Australia is doing, but they're gonna get a backlash like y- you've absolutely never seen.

Audie Cornish 52:07 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 52:07 Right?

Audie Cornish 52:07 So where does that affect at one point-

Kara Swisher 52:10 Well-

Audie Cornish 52:10 ... Elon Musk? You know what I mean? Like, that's what I'm curious about-

Kara Swisher 52:13 Never

Audie Cornish 52:13 ... is like-

Kara Swisher 52:13 I don't think he... It's like Trump. We're gonna-

Audie Cornish 52:14 Do you think it's because it just becomes the gutter? Like, this is the red-light district of the internet. He runs it, and-

Kara Swisher 52:21 And because a lot of, you know, if you've noticed, the, the internet is becoming less and less useful.

Audie Cornish 52:26 Yes, 100%.

Kara Swisher 52:26 I think people are using it, the AI slop-

Audie Cornish 52:29 Yeah

Kara Swisher 52:29 ... there, it's really becoming less and less useful. And so the promise was this would be more useful, and a lot of AI absolutely is. I just think there's no business in child porn. There's no business i, i- from now until 200 years from now.

Bill Cohan 52:43 Wh- why aren't... This should be an issue for federal regulation, right?

Kara Swisher 52:46 Absolutely.

Bill Cohan 52:46 Regular regulators.

Audie Cornish 52:47 Of course.

Kara Swisher 52:48 Well-

Bill Cohan 52:48 But you'll never get the Trump administration-

Kara Swisher 52:50 Epstein

Bill Cohan 52:50 ... to do the right thing.

Kara Swisher 52:51 Epstein.

Bill Cohan 52:51 They, they, they prefer to do the wrong thing-

Kara Swisher 52:54 Mm-hmm

Bill Cohan 52:54 ... purposefully to-

Kara Swisher 52:56 He has to

Bill Cohan 52:56 ... you know, own the libs, so to speak.

Kara Swisher 52:57 Right.

Audie Cornish 52:57 But is it just the Trump administration? I mean, Kara, I feel like you and I-

Kara Swisher 53:00 I agree. I agree

Audie Cornish 53:00 ... talked so many times about 230-

Kara Swisher 53:02 I have-

Audie Cornish 53:02 ... and how lawmakers are just very reluctant-

Kara Swisher 53:05 Well-

Audie Cornish 53:05 ... to step on the toes-

Kara Swisher 53:06 I, I even walked away from

Audie Cornish 53:06 ... of industry.

Kara Swisher 53:07 Yeah, I talked to him from two... I'm like, "Let's leave 230 aside," because that's a complex, much more complex thing. When this hap- When the, when I started interviewing these parents back in 2024, um, I called 10 legislators. I'm like: "Can you please fucking listen to this and do something about it?" And they're like, "Oh, I hadn't heard of it." Like, and I was like: "Get on it!" Like, "Get the fuck on this. Like, I can't do anything." And I think, you know, and then unfortunately, the people that get on it are, are, sort of have, have, um, you know, they, they're trying to kill a fly with a, with an anvil, right? Like, there's, there's a way to do this. This is illegal. There are already laws in place about these things, and-

Audie Cornish 53:42 Yeah, but they don't really understand the technology, frankly.

Kara Swisher 53:44 I, I would first-

Audie Cornish 53:44 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 53:44 I would prosecute, uh, xAI. That's-

Audie Cornish 53:46 Yeah

Kara Swisher 53:46 ... I would just like, time to pro- I, I-

Audie Cornish 53:48 I have wondered-

Kara Swisher 53:49 There is a very ambitious prosecutor out there. I don't care if it's conservative or liberal.

Bill Cohan 53:53 You're gonna prosecute the $700 billion man?

Kara Swisher 53:56 Yes, yes, for, for child porn.

Bill Cohan 53:58 The Trump administration?

Kara Swisher 53:59 No. I, I would do it with state. I'd do, uh, one of the s-

Bill Cohan 54:02 Right

Kara Swisher 54:02 ... one of the big states, you know, just, like, i- in order to have people talking about it, right? Because he's the one I would go for because he's the biggest and the most-

Bill Cohan 54:09 Totally

Kara Swisher 54:10 ... villainous. He's the most villainous. Anyway, we'll see what happens here, but let me just say, I'm gonna... I, I, it, look, it's mostly Elon Musk's fault because he doesn't give a fuck. Um, obviously, he brought back Andrew Tate and others who are just heinous creatures. Um, but ultimately, Sundar Pichai and Tim Cook, you're soiling yourself in public by letting this continue. The... You're supposed to-

Audie Cornish 54:30 When you say by letting, you mean not speaking out-

Kara Swisher 54:32 The app stores

Audie Cornish 54:32 ... not coming out with counter technology.

Kara Swisher 54:34 The app stores. They took down, took down a lot of that nine el- that, that, that January 6th stuff pretty quickly-

Audie Cornish 54:39 Right

Kara Swisher 54:39 ... when I looked, when I did that one interview with the guy from whatever that site that was do- used for planning. Um, they, they've acted before in the App Store, but this is child porn, and you own this, both of you. I'm sorry. Anyway, uh, they, they're in a position to stop it. Like, for, at least speak out against it or temporarily stop it and get him to do something about it. Anyway, uh, one more quick break. We'll be back for predictions. [swishing sound] Okay,

Kara Swisher 55:05 Audie and Bill, uh, let's hear some predictions.

Bill Cohan 55:07 [chuckles]

Kara Swisher 55:07 I will go last.

Audie Cornish 55:09 You will go [chuckles] last?

Kara Swisher 55:10 I shall go last.

Bill Cohan 55:11 Okay.

Kara Swisher 55:11 Who wants to go first?

Audie Cornish 55:12 That's not fair.

Kara Swisher 55:13 Bill.

Bill Cohan 55:13 Okay, I'll go-

Kara Swisher 55:14 Bill

Bill Cohan 55:14 ... I'll go first. Uh, I, I have two predictions, uh, Kara. O- one is that I, I do think, uh, AI valuations are going to return to Earth in 2026, the latter half of 2026. Uh, not that AI, uh, isn't a valuable tool, like the internet is a valuable tool, but just like with internet 1.0, you know, you slap-... you know, dot com at the end of, you know, uh, a company going public, and it's suddenly everybody falls over themselves to invest. That's where we are now with AI. It's ridiculous, and, ah, it will come down to earth, and a lot of people will lose a lot of money, which is always, I think, uh, justice, uh, to some extent. Not that AI won't be incredibly valuable tool, as it already proves- is proving to be and will become more so in the future. And the, uh, second prediction is, uh, one of my favorites, which is that Hakeem Jeffries will be, a year from now, the Speaker of the House.

Kara Swisher 56:11 If not sooner.

Audie Cornish 56:12 Yeah-

Bill Cohan 56:13 If not sooner.

Audie Cornish 56:13 More and more people are talking like that, frankly.

Kara Swisher 56:15 Yeah.

Audie Cornish 56:15 It's very interesting.

Bill Cohan 56:16 Sooner the better, as far as I'm concerned.

Kara Swisher 56:17 All right, Audie?

Audie Cornish 56:18 Um, well-

Kara Swisher 56:19 Quick ones?

Audie Cornish 56:19 Just to give you a sense of, uh, how it's going, so my staff made this at the end of the year- [laughing] ... meme of me. These are, these are mouse pads, which they come in bulk, so if anyone wants to-

Bill Cohan 56:29 Oh, definitely want that

Audie Cornish 56:29 ... buy one. [laughing] So that's our-

Kara Swisher 56:32 So this is fine, like-

Audie Cornish 56:33 Our merch. Um-

Kara Swisher 56:34 It's a meme

Audie Cornish 56:34 ... and a likeness of me that was startlingly accurate.

Kara Swisher 56:37 Yeah.

Audie Cornish 56:38 Uh, 'cause every day there's been something.

Kara Swisher 56:40 Mm-hmm.

Audie Cornish 56:40 I would say that, uh, this is maybe more a wish. [chuckles] I, I predict there will be a movement of human-verified social media apps, that someone is gonna find a way to tap into the market of people who want to avoid AI, uh, slop and imagery, and I was thinking of this when I saw Adam Mosseri of Instagram do this big carousel little essay, where he was basically saying, like, Instagram, as we know it, is going to be pretty much dead under this scenario, and here are the things you need to think about. And the first thing I thought is, there's gonna be someone who makes an app that somehow is human verifiable, and that people are really gonna want that.

Kara Swisher 57:22 Yeah. Yeah, or else get off. I mean, there's a trend among young people of getting off completely.

Audie Cornish 57:26 Because as you said, if it's not useful-

Kara Swisher 57:29 Yeah

Audie Cornish 57:29 ... then you just- you can't find your way to it-

Kara Swisher 57:32 Right

Audie Cornish 57:32 ... in the day. TikTok is useful for people right now-

Kara Swisher 57:34 Mm

Audie Cornish 57:34 ... 'cause it's TV to them.

Kara Swisher 57:36 Right.

Audie Cornish 57:36 They are being entertained-

Kara Swisher 57:37 It is indeed

Audie Cornish 57:37 ... by this thing on a loop. But if they're no longer entertained, 'cause what they're seeing is, uh, an algorithm owned by [chuckles] you know, uh, the government's friends or just AI slop, and by slop, I mean everything that is just generated for generating's sake. Why?

Kara Swisher 57:56 Right, interestingly, the head of-

Audie Cornish 57:57 If you're 14, 15, why?

Kara Swisher 57:58 The head of Roku, who's a really smart guy, Anthony Wood, um, founder and CEO, did say that he thought there was gonna be an AI movie hit, AI-generated movie hit. Now, he's always talked about the back end, and I think he's completely right. Um, when I interviewed the head of Runway, same thing. There's a lot of back-end efficiencies about to be imposed upon Hollywood, and that will be helpful for their business. Um, but, uh, but make the c- when when it moves into content, it's a really different thing, and one of the things the Runway CEO suggested is that instead of labeling AI, we label real-

Audie Cornish 58:31 Yes

Kara Swisher 58:31 ... 'cause it's smaller.

Audie Cornish 58:33 Very much so.

Kara Swisher 58:34 So this is like-

Audie Cornish 58:35 That's, that's my prediction-

Kara Swisher 58:36 ... organic

Audie Cornish 58:36 ... as well. So you're telling me the wind is at my back.

Kara Swisher 58:38 The wind is at your back.

Audie Cornish 58:39 This is possible.

Kara Swisher 58:39 I like it.

Audie Cornish 58:40 I know nothing about business-

Kara Swisher 58:41 I like it

Audie Cornish 58:41 ... but I'm ready. [chuckles]

Kara Swisher 58:42 All right, I will, I will do this. I think time is running out for Trump, and the desperate... Uh, listen, he's very active and vibrant, like an old man in a... My mom's in a, in a senior facility. There's always one guy who's just loud and fast and moving around, and listen, that's where we are with this guy, and I think he's, he's much sicker than people realize.

Bill Cohan 59:00 Mm.

Audie Cornish 59:00 Oh, this is a health prediction.

Kara Swisher 59:02 A health-

Audie Cornish 59:02 I thought this was a political prediction.

Kara Swisher 59:03 They're both health and everything.

Audie Cornish 59:03 Okay.

Kara Swisher 59:03 He's not gonna get all this stuff done. Like, he's got... There's too much stuff happening and not enough lackeys. I know it sounds crazy, but even the lackeys are probably lacking at this point. And so when, when I saw that Suzy Wales interview, I'm like, "The rats, they getting ready." Um-

Audie Cornish 59:20 Mm.

Kara Swisher 59:20 I- as I just told Scott, I've, I'm meeting with Trump people a lot, and they all are asking for pardons. They're all, like, getting ready for the inevitable-

Bill Cohan 59:29 Warner Bros. trials

Kara Swisher 59:30 ... which is, right. They're getting ready for the-

Bill Cohan 59:31 Get ready for those

Kara Swisher 59:32 ... for them. And so-

Audie Cornish 59:33 But that's different from saying there's no after, 'cause he plans to stay.

Kara Swisher 59:37 Well, I don't think he has-

Audie Cornish 59:37 Like, I hear you making a prediction that's different.

Kara Swisher 59:39 I, I'm not gonna-

Audie Cornish 59:39 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 59:40 As Scott says, "Biology is undefeated." Um, and nobody, you know... I'm not sure who's less charming, Don Jr. or JD Vance, but as I, as I said about Vance, he's the Cybertruck of politicians. Um, but one of the [chuckles] -

Bill Cohan 59:54 [laughing]

Audie Cornish 59:55 I-

Kara Swisher 59:55 It's true.

Audie Cornish 59:55 It took me a beat.

Bill Cohan 59:56 Love that.

Kara Swisher 59:56 Yeah, you're like, "Of course."

Audie Cornish 59:58 [laughing]

Kara Swisher 59:58 Yes. Uh, correct.

Bill Cohan 59:59 Yes.

Kara Swisher 59:59 Yes, uh, but that's why I talk about the ballroom. I, I think it is... There's also some legal stuff happening to slow it down quite a bit. It's everything that gets slowed down is a problem, whether it's the Paramount deal, whether it's the ballroom, and I think, by the way, FYI, they do need a ballroom at the White House.

Audie Cornish 1:00:16 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 1:00:16 Have you covered it? There's nowhere to... There- as odd as it seems-

Audie Cornish 1:00:19 It's always a bunch of tents when they have something.

Kara Swisher 1:00:20 There's, it's a bunch of tents-

Audie Cornish 1:00:22 Yeah

Kara Swisher 1:00:22 ... and there's small rooms. They really are, people, and the offices are small. [chuckles] It's really quite fun to go there, but at the same time, you're like, "What a shitty office this is." Um, and so there needs to be some renovation. Just the way it was done was, of course, uh, awful, but I don't think you're gonna get the huge ballroom. I don't think he's gonna get what he wants, and I think the gold leaf is gonna come down, and that- and they will have a, they will have a decent, better side to it, and that's okay. Um, but the, the big one isn't gonna happen. I'm s- I'm sorry to say. He's not gonna get his, a Trump, uh, triumph, uh, triumphal arc, arc either. So, but we can talk-

Bill Cohan 1:01:01 Is he gonna get his face on Mount Rushmore or on the coins?

Kara Swisher 1:01:04 I don't care. Do you care?

Audie Cornish 1:01:06 The coins might happen.

Kara Swisher 1:01:07 He can have the coins. I don't care. Like, at a certain point, you're like, "Yeah, give him a coin. Why not?" Like, Mount Rushmore?

Audie Cornish 1:01:12 And we, none of us mentioned-

Kara Swisher 1:01:13 I don't care

Audie Cornish 1:01:13 ... the 250-

Kara Swisher 1:01:15 I don't care

Audie Cornish 1:01:15 ... year anniversary. I mean, we're about to see, uh-

Kara Swisher 1:01:18 Yeah.

Bill Cohan 1:01:18 Oh, yeah.

Audie Cornish 1:01:19 I think propaganda is actually the, the safest word to use-

Kara Swisher 1:01:23 Yeah

Audie Cornish 1:01:23 ... definitionally here.

Kara Swisher 1:01:24 Yeah.

Audie Cornish 1:01:24 Kara, I'll defer to you, 'cause that's your area of expertise.

Kara Swisher 1:01:27 Propaganda is still a correct word.

Audie Cornish 1:01:28 Um, because it's going to be the, the country's birthday in his frame. [chuckles]

Kara Swisher 1:01:35 That's right, which is-

Audie Cornish 1:01:36 Just completely in the context of him.

Kara Swisher 1:01:38 Which is well-done steaks and s-

Audie Cornish 1:01:41 ... Well, it's a UFC octagon. It's whatever.

Kara Swisher 1:01:43 Yeah, it's fine.

Audie Cornish 1:01:43 I mean, just, uh-

Bill Cohan 1:01:45 YMCA

Audie Cornish 1:01:45 ... something, yeah, something-

Bill Cohan 1:01:46 It's going to be grotesque

Audie Cornish 1:01:46 ... that could be-

Bill Cohan 1:01:47 That's for sure

Audie Cornish 1:01:48 ... very sort of academic and a little sleepy, and history nerd-

Kara Swisher 1:01:52 Mm-hmm

Audie Cornish 1:01:52 ... in another year-

Kara Swisher 1:01:53 Mm-hmm

Audie Cornish 1:01:54 ... is gonna be something else.

Kara Swisher 1:01:55 Yeah, I just think, I don't care. Go ahead. Go for it, old man. It's your last hurrah.

Bill Cohan 1:01:59 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 1:01:59 Go for it. I don't give a- I am not gonna get mad about those things. Anyway, so we'll see about that, but it's time, TikTok, as they say.

Audie Cornish 1:02:06 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 1:02:06 Anyway, I really appreciate it, but let me just read this. We wanna hear from you. Send us your questions about business. If you don't agree with me or Bill or Audie, or whatever's on your mind, go to nytmag.com/pivot, submit a question for the show or a comment, or call 855-51-PIVOT. Again, that is the show. Thank you so much. Uh, Audie and Bill came on at the last minute, and I really appreciate it. It was incredibly substantive and really helpful for people, 'cause right now, the news-

Audie Cornish 1:02:31 Bill, total honor to meet you this way.

Bill Cohan 1:02:33 No-

Audie Cornish 1:02:33 This is so cool.

Bill Cohan 1:02:34 Please.

Audie Cornish 1:02:34 Thank you, Kara.

Kara Swisher 1:02:35 You, you-

Bill Cohan 1:02:35 This is-

Kara Swisher 1:02:35 And a great job together, too.

Bill Cohan 1:02:37 Thank you all.

Kara Swisher 1:02:37 You have a nice rapport between you.

Bill Cohan 1:02:38 It made my day.

Kara Swisher 1:02:39 Anyway, uh, we- and the thing is, the last show was, uh, Brooke Hammerling, uh, Stephanie Ruhle, and Don Lemon, and all they talked about was speaking of gay [chuckles] porn, uh, the heated rivalry, so this was a little different.

Audie Cornish 1:02:50 All right, well, ask me back to this show. I don't wanna have to, like, harm-

Kara Swisher 1:02:53 No, I have

Audie Cornish 1:02:54 ... Scott every time I wanna come back.

Kara Swisher 1:02:55 I have, don't you worry. Absolutely.

Audie Cornish 1:02:56 This is ridiculous.

Kara Swisher 1:02:56 Both of you have been valued, uh, contributors-

Audie Cornish 1:02:59 [laughing]

Kara Swisher 1:02:59 ... to a lot of my podcasts, and I really appreciate it. So please watch, listen to, and read all the amazing work they're doing at CNN and Puck. Uh, Audie has the morning show. Uh, Bill has a must, must-read-

Audie Cornish 1:03:10 Absolute must-read

Kara Swisher 1:03:10 ... uh, column, that is so helpful to me-

Bill Cohan 1:03:13 Yeah, thank you

Kara Swisher 1:03:13 ... in understanding these things. Um, anyway, thanks for listening to Pivot, and be sure to like and subscribe to our YouTube channel. I'm just doing rather well, I have to say. Uh, we'll be back next week, and I will read us out. [upbeat music] Today's show was produced by Lara Naaman, Zoë Marcus, and Taylor Griffin. Ernie Andalot engineered this episode. Manolo Moreno edited this video. Nishat Kurwa is Vox Media's executive producer of podcasts. Make sure to follow Pivot on your favorite podcast platform. Thanks for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media. You can subscribe to the magazine at nytmag.com/pod. We'll be back next week for another breakdown of all things tech and business. Scott, come home! [upbeat music]