Kara Swisher on Buttigieg Family Swatting Attack: “This Was Terrifying” | Pivot

Scott Galloway 0:00 The internet doesn't have a speech problem, it has an accountability problem, and our fetishization for free speech and anonymity has resulted in a total lack of accountability.

Kara Swisher 0:10 [upbeat music] We've got a lot to get to today, so let's dig in. We, we-- There's so much news. Scott even participated in the group chat. He's like, "There's so much news." But actually, his selections were correct, but, 'cause the first one is something I think I was a little... Was I surprised? Comcast

Kara Swisher 0:28 is spinning off NBCUniversal and Sky into a separate publicly traded company. The new NBCUniversal will include NBC, the Universal Film Studio, theme parks, and Sky. This is the, the satellite service they have in, in, in the, in Europe. Comcast keeps Exfi-Xfinity Internet and Wireless, so it's back to square one, I guess.

Scott Galloway 0:47 Mm-hmm.

Kara Swisher 0:47 The market liked it. Comcast shares jumped twenty-one percent in pre-market trading Monday morning. It's not a total clean bake. Comcast will hold a roughly twenty percent stake in the new NBCUniversal. I think they still have a big stake in MS now too. Um, and the deal's expected to close w- in about a year. There's a catch, though. Analysts say, while the spin-off gives NBCUniversal more freedom to do deals, it leaves Comcast broadband business more exposed at a time when cable is already under pressure. So talk about this. The people they're putting in place are very good executives, um, but does NBC now, now remerge with MS now or what in the... You need to explain this to me. I really didn't quite understand why they're doing it now, uh, what the troubles they're seeking. I know they had looked at, uh, buying Warner at one point. Um, so could Netflix buy NBCUniversal? Um, what, what, there's a lot there. There's a lot at those studios. So thoughts?

Scott Galloway 1:41 So this is why companies conglomerate. The board who decides the CEO's compensation hires a firm called Towers Perrin, uh, b- 'cause compensation's the hardest part and one of the most important things that a board does. And because boards don't want to do any work, they pay this firm, Towers Perrin, two or three hundred thousand dollars, and they come in with a survey, and the survey says, on a scale of zero to a hundred, fifty being the average compensation, and they look at the industry and the size of the business. And so if you're running a bank that does ten billion a year in business, uh, fifty percent might be three million a year. But if you're running a bank that does eighty mill- eighty billion in business or whatever, then the average compensation is twenty million. So the incentives and also the ego and the also the testosterone and the, and the, and the penis and the midlife crisis all lead-

Kara Swisher 2:30 Penis

Scott Galloway 2:31 ... incentives for the CEO to get bigger and bigger and bigger. And th- sometimes there are real synergies around different businesses, but almost always not. Typically what happens is you end up with a Frankenstein. And so the market g-gets to a point where the, you have these Frankensteins of businesses that add no synergy, and what the market-

Kara Swisher 2:50 Can I change the metaphor? It's a turducken.

Scott Galloway 2:52 A turducken.

Kara Swisher 2:52 That's what you're talking.

Scott Galloway 2:52 Thank you for that.

Kara Swisher 2:53 A turducken. Yeah.

Scott Galloway 2:54 And what the market has a tendency to do is it looks at the shittiest business, 'cause it says, "There's no synergy here," and it says, "Okay, New York Times, you own seventeen percent of the Boston Red Sox and the seventh tallest building in America."

Kara Swisher 3:05 This is previously. Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 3:06 "This is how much the building is worth. This is how much the Boston Red Sox are worth. But instead, we're gonna look at your shittiest business, your regional newspapers, which trade at four to five times EBITDA, and we're gonna assign that multiple to the entire business," because they don't give you any credit for the, for the stuff that's working really well. So the dispositions, the disposition of assets becomes accretive to shareholders. And in this case, you have a media business that's strong and growing while the connectivity business is shrinking, and what they do is shareholders assign the multiple on the connectivity business to the strong and growing business. Last quarter, the media division, get this, reported a forty percent increase in revenue to nearly twelve billion for the quarter. Theme parks grew twenty-four percent.

Kara Swisher 3:51 Yeah. Great theme parks. Yeah.

Scott Galloway 3:52 Media grew sixty-one percent, and studios grew twenty-one percent. And over the same busine- over the same period, the connectivity division shrunk revenues three percent.

Kara Swisher 4:03 Oh.

Scott Galloway 4:03 So what you have is-

Kara Swisher 4:04 So it's connectivity that's not as-

Scott Galloway 4:06 That's right.

Kara Swisher 4:07 -huge.

Scott Galloway 4:07 Residential connectivity shrunk about four percent-

Kara Swisher 4:09 Sure does. Yeah

Scott Galloway 4:09 ... while business connectivity grew six percent. So what happens is, if you split these things apart, you have one company, the connectivity business, which is a mature business that's in structural decline but still spins off a ton of cash, and then you have a growth business, when it becomes a pure play growth business, gets a much higher multiple, and the result is a stock that was up twenty-five percent based on these two companies that have-

Kara Swisher 4:33 Two companies

Scott Galloway 4:34 ... more focus.

Kara Swisher 4:34 So what happens to each of them? Is there, like, look, you have MS. They, they split off MS now, a-and now it's trying to create its own little news division and everything, and doing well for what it is, right? It actually has seen some growth under, uh, those executives. And then you have the media business that has, by the way, there's some fine executives at the media part.

Scott Galloway 4:53 Very well-run company.

Kara Swisher 4:54 Donna Lang- Don- Donna Langley. It's a very smart group of people. Whenever I meet them, I'm always so impressed. Um, but they weren't able to participate in the Warner thing, for example, and I know it was frustrating 'cause they were actually the natural owner for that.

Scott Galloway 5:07 Agreed.

Kara Swisher 5:07 Like, uh, you know? I was like-

Scott Galloway 5:09 Agreed

Kara Swisher 5:09 ... of all the things, I was like-

Scott Galloway 5:11 Yeah

Kara Swisher 5:11 ... Paramount, they're a bunch of incompetents. Netflix is gonna, is too big and gonna get in trouble. Comcast was the perfect buyer for that, you know, in terms of quality people and the theme parks and everything else. Um, so what, what happens here? And the other thing, just, just for, as a sidelight, there, the other two things, could Netflix come in and do something here? I think it's too much. Um, Disney's CFO has signaled they intend to keep the linear and streaming businesses together for now, they don't, they don't own a cable division, and not split it off. So they're keeping those together, the studios and the streaming and everything else. So i- is the strategy, seems like it's the same strategy if they're gonna hold on to, uh, NBC, Universal Film Studio, theme parks, and Sky, right? So they're, so that's c- a little connectivity, I guess. But thoughts on that? What, what, what happens to each of these parts? What happens to the cable parts, and then what happens to the I mean, could like Elon come in and buy the cable parts for Starlink? Or pe- there were rumors of him buying one of the, uh, the phone service businesses.

Scott Galloway 6:14 Well, well, I mean, it's scary, but with a $2 trillion market cap, there's very little he couldn't buy right now. Um, so Versant, their stock is down 21% since the spin-off. I don't know what happens... Uh, okay, first off, Disney, for the time being, is holding onto its cable assets. That means they h- no one's offered the price they want. It, it will make sense for them to shed that business because the parks, the IRL business, the parks, is an unbelievable business. So this is all a long-winded way of saying I'm not sure what they're gonna do, but they have simplified and created pure plays. 'Cause here's the bottom line. If you put yourself in the shoes of an investor, they don't need the Roberts family to diversify for them. Uh, CEOs love diversification. Why? Okay, my connectivity business is down, but my parks were up 24%. In other words-

Kara Swisher 7:02 Right. Yeah

Scott Galloway 7:03 ... they sleep better at night because they can grow 6, 8, 10% a year and not worry that, "Oh, fuck, I got a problem at MSNBC." Whereas this is the thing, though, investors, I don't need you to diversify for me. I can buy Versant stock if I think it's really cheap. I can buy the parks business stock if I think it's a grower and I want growth. But CEOs' incentive and compensation, and quite frankly, wanting to sleep at night and be bigger and badder, leads to an agglomeration or a conglomeration that eventually the stock market throws up on, and that's what's happened here. And you know what the next really... There's a stock right now that if it broke up, it would triple. You know what that company is?

Kara Swisher 7:46 What is? What is?

Scott Galloway 7:48 I'll give you a hint. I went to their dinner last Sunday night.

Kara Swisher 7:52 I don't know. What is it? Maybe you've mentioned it before.

Scott Galloway 7:55 I'll give you another hint.

Kara Swisher 7:56 All right.

Scott Galloway 7:56 The, uh, um, VR, but only subscale.

Kara Swisher 8:00 Oh, Snapchat.

Scott Galloway 8:02 If Snap spun their spectacles group, the stock would triple or quadruple.

Kara Swisher 8:08 Oh, interesting. Yeah.

Scott Galloway 8:09 That is the most, that is the greatest unlock waiting-

Kara Swisher 8:11 He loves them spectacles, though.

Scott Galloway 8:13 Well, that's the problem. It's a single cl- it's a dual class shareholder, and Evan controls the company.

Kara Swisher 8:17 Yeah, he loves them spectacles.

Scott Galloway 8:19 Do you realize that I think Meta gets about $400 in market cap per user? Uh, Snap gets 17.

Kara Swisher 8:26 Wow. Yeah, you're right. He should get rid of the spectacles.

Scott Galloway 8:29 If they spun and did a deal with Chamet or something, if they spun the spectacles group and it was just a pure play social media platform, rocket ship.

Kara Swisher 8:37 Interesting.

Scott Galloway 8:37 Get this. Do you know how much the stock is-

Kara Swisher 8:39 Ooh, I like that idea

Scott Galloway 8:39 ... do you know how much the stock is off the last five years?

Kara Swisher 8:42 A lot. A lot. [laughs] Yeah.

Scott Galloway 8:44 93%.

Kara Swisher 8:45 Yeah. It's crazy. Yeah.

Scott Galloway 8:46 93%.

Kara Swisher 8:48 Oh, I like that little play right there.

Scott Galloway 8:49 A pure play, 500 million people a day social media network that has-

Kara Swisher 8:53 Yeah

Scott Galloway 8:53 ... the most attractive user base for advertisers in history.

Kara Swisher 8:56 Yeah. Yeah.

Scott Galloway 8:56 That is people under the age of 25.

Kara Swisher 8:58 Still, still inventive. Yeah.

Scott Galloway 8:59 You get rid of this weeping sore called the spectacles unit that is subscale.

Kara Swisher 9:04 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 9:04 Rocket ship.

Kara Swisher 9:05 What happens to each of these divi- so what, there's, there's Versant, obviously, um, Warner's is its own little nightmare, although there's rumors that CNN will get spun off, um, with Rob Bonta and the California Attorney General. But what happens to each of these divisions?

Scott Galloway 9:23 Well, I think, I think the medium parks business has real synergy because if you put out a Harry Potter film, you can have a Harry Potter ride, right?

Kara Swisher 9:29 Yeah. Right. Right. Exactly. Yep.

Scott Galloway 9:30 The connectivity business should be run.

Kara Swisher 9:33 They do. They do indeed. Yes, they do indeed.

Scott Galloway 9:34 They just get focused. Now, in terms of Versant and the cable assets, those are declining businesses, but those can be amazing businesses. You go Yellow Pages, and that was, this is the weakest flex in the world. I was on the board of the world's largest Yellow Pages company, and all we did was just go around the world and buy other Yellow Pages companies, and basically-

Kara Swisher 9:51 Oh, okay. I just-

Scott Galloway 9:51 ... hold on to the salespeople, get rid of everybody else-

Kara Swisher 9:54 Hmm

Scott Galloway 9:54 ... and their cash machines, and that's what you're gonna see. It doesn't make CN- CNN should go into Versant, and ABC should sell their sh- They, they need to consolidate the back end on these, these cable properties, and that's what they'll do, and they'll still be good businesses. They'll just be in decline.

Kara Swisher 10:11 Yeah, that's absolutely right. They could buy, they could be the largest, uh, small player, right? The lar- like it'll, it'll do well. It'll do well for a long, long time.

Scott Galloway 10:18 Well, they're hugely profitable businesses.

Kara Swisher 10:19 Yeah, yeah, yeah. It'll be interesting. I wonder if they'll bring Versant back. Will they? Why would you? Why would you want them?

Scott Galloway 10:26 No, I don't think so. A- again, the story has to be clean, right? I m- I mean, Alphabet's learned their lesson. They're gonna spin Waymo. Waymo's already spun, I guess. It's an independent company.

Kara Swisher 10:36 Why didn't Sky stay with the cable business?

Scott Galloway 10:39 That's a great question. I don't know.

Kara Swisher 10:41 Hmm. That was the one that stuck in my head.

Scott Galloway 10:42 I don't know.

Kara Swisher 10:43 So it'll be interesting. Yeah, because they do, you're right, theme parks, the film studio. NBC, I'm not sure where that fits in exact- a broadcast network. I guess it just, why not? Probably doesn't cost them much. It's a good-

Scott Galloway 10:54 Comcast and Hearst are the most underrated management teams in media.

Kara Swisher 10:57 I would agree.

Scott Galloway 10:58 They're just very smart people who consistently do the right thing for shareholders. They're aggressive, they're smart, and they're totally under the radar. Like they, they don't want, they don't want their, their CEOs getting in trouble or making earnings, doing earnings-

Kara Swisher 11:12 They also couldn't play in the Warner thing. I remember I went to the Wicked premiere, and I ran into a bunch of them, and they were like, "We are the obvious right owner." I was like, "Oh, I know, but you're not getting it 'cause Richie Rich over there and the crazies at Netflix can't..." You can't beat them, right? You can't beat either of those companies. But I think this does give them a cleaner shot at buying stuff up. You know, there's all kinds of things for sale, like Lionsgate. There's a man- there's all manner of stuff for sale in Hollywood. So we'll see what happens. You're gonna see a lot of M&A, as Scott Galloway says. Uh, anyway, interesting move by Brian Roberts, who I really like a lot, I have to say. He's a classy guy. Everyone over there is classy. They're a classy gang. They're very competent. Anyway.

Scott Galloway 11:52 They're from Philadelphia, which means they've killed people.

Kara Swisher 11:54 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 11:54 That's all I know.

Kara Swisher 11:56 [laughs] I know.

Scott Galloway 11:57 I'm sorry. Anyone who's-

Kara Swisher 11:58 You s-

Scott Galloway 11:58 Anyone, any family that is self-made billionaires in Philadelphia, there's definitely-

Kara Swisher 12:02 I know

Scott Galloway 12:02 ... people buried in the foundation of a building of that sky tower, right?

Kara Swisher 12:04 You know why I have a good feeling for Brian Roberts is 'cause I was working for Murdoch, and then I went over to Comcast, and it was such a pleasure. Let me just tell you. It was, I went, went... It was such a different personality, although Rupert was more fun at a party. Anyway, let's go on a quick break. When we come back, why OpenAI might delay its IPO. We're all tech this week

Scott Galloway 12:23 Support for the show comes from Upwork. A big life hack is finally admitting to yourself that you need help and that you can't do everything yourself. Thankfully, Upwork makes it easy to bring in the right freelancer when you need them, so you can stay focused on what you do best. Upwork is a one-stop platform to find, hire, and pay expert freelancers across web and software development, data and analytics, business operations, and more. Upwork also helps grow your business by giving you fast access to specialized talent across 125 plus categories, so you can fill skill gaps, launch projects faster, and scale support up or down without committing to full-time headcount. Thousands of growing businesses already trust Upwork to hire flexible, high-quality freelance talent for everything from one-off projects to ongoing support. You can browse profiles, review past work, and get help scoping the role so you can hire with confidence and get started quickly. It's free to sign up, and posting a job is easy. Visit upwork.com/pivot right now and post your job for free. That's upwork.com/pivot to connect with top talent ready to help your business grow. That's U-P-W-O-R-K.com/pivot, upwork.com/pivot.

Kara Swisher 13:28 Scott, we're back. OpenAI is reportedly considering delaying its

Kara Swisher 13:31 IPO until next year, according to New York Times. The company has been planning to go public as soon as the third or fourth quarter this year. Valuation appears to be one of the sticking points. Sam Altman is reportedly holding out for a $1 trillion. Well, they all want this. The company was valued at 850 billion back in March, 850 billion. There's also some hesitation in light of SpaceX IPO, which is sort of bumpity, which has been trending downward after the sky-high debut, though it's doing a little better as we record. News of the possible delay led to a, a tech sell-off, stock sell-off, with shares of Oracle, CoreWeave, and SoftBank all falling. Um, a- and there's a possibility that Anthropic is breathing down their neck, that they may delay too. There was some t- chatter about that. So is it important for them to wait? As you talked about, the money is getting sucked out of the system. A- and their financials leaked a few weeks ago, with losses increasing nearly 8X in 2025, and spending hitting $34 billion. It's not a, the greatest story in the world. That, and of course, they've got Anthropic right in front of them, not breathing down their neck, right in front of them. They're riding behind it.

Scott Galloway 14:32 I think this is not systemic, or I think this is, uh, an individual thing, and that is I, I believe that Anthropic is still gonna get out. This is what I call the great flippening, and that is I, I-

Kara Swisher 14:45 Flippening. Is that a word you made up?

Scott Galloway 14:46 Fl-

Kara Swisher 14:46 Is that a vulgar word you made up?

Scott Galloway 14:47 Flippening. Yeah, there you go. There you go.

Kara Swisher 14:49 It does sound-

Scott Galloway 14:49 In the Lincoln bedroom tonight-

Kara Swisher 14:50 It does sound like a sex act, doesn't it?

Scott Galloway 14:52 There you go.

Kara Swisher 14:53 Flippening. What would that be?

Scott Galloway 14:54 Well, uh, I feel as if I need to use my safe word right now.

Kara Swisher 14:57 Mm-hmm. Okay.

Scott Galloway 14:58 Maybe.

Kara Swisher 14:59 [laughs]

Scott Galloway 14:59 Anyways, the, the great flippening-

Kara Swisher 15:01 I, I laugh at that every time.

Scott Galloway 15:03 It's good.

Kara Swisher 15:03 You've said it-

Scott Galloway 15:04 You never get told

Kara Swisher 15:04 ... hundreds of times to me, and I laugh-

Scott Galloway 15:06 You never get told

Kara Swisher 15:06 ... every time. Go ahead.

Scott Galloway 15:08 Um, so Q4 of 2025, OpenAI is the dominant leader. Right now, Anthropic is the d- we've never seen Avis overtake Hertz this fast. This isn't even Pepsi overtaking Coke. It's like RC Cola one morning is the market leader.

Kara Swisher 15:23 RC Cola.

Scott Galloway 15:24 And I think Anthropic gets out, but I think OpenAI, if they were gonna have to show their wares or open their cupboards, there was just gonna be evidence everywhere that Anthropic is eating their lunch. And I talk to a lot of CEOs about AI, and the comp- a company I'm an investor in, Section, talks, it does all this, helps companies upscale around AI. What they're seeing is the following, is, quote-unquote, "blame the model." And everyone's blaming OpenAI and swapping them out for Anthropic, believing they're gonna get a much greater ROI. So I think that basically if, when we look back on the great drawdown that will be O, uh, uh, AI valuations that is, I think, gonna happen in the next 12 months, this will be seen as a real crack that, that it kind of was a signal of what's to come.

Kara Swisher 16:14 I- is it smart to wait? T- you talked about the sort of lack of cap. There's not enough money here, essentially.

Scott Galloway 16:20 I don't... I, I, if they could get out, they would. I, I think what, I, I think what this says is the CFO talked to the banker, and the banker said, "Okay, there's no wallpapering over this. Your business has lost a ton of momentum." And then you combine it with the second thing that is different than Anthropic. Altman has taken the Amazon and Netflix fake it until you make it, spend more money than anyone else, and your stock will go up. He's taken that to an extreme that is too much, and that is if you look at how much money they are burning, I think what the S1s, and they would be, they would be side by side immediately. Everyone would be comparing Anthropic and OpenAI's financials against each other.

Kara Swisher 17:01 Yes, they would. Yeah.

Scott Galloway 17:01 And I think what you would see is the following. Not only has OpenAI massively lost momentum against Anthropic, it is also operating much more promiscuously with cash, and that is, uh, despite Anthropic's massive investments and massive losses, it's projecting that it'll break even by 2030, and Sam Altman's whole thing is, "No, I'm committing to a trillion dollars in CapEx, 'cause the future, there's only one winner." And I think the market, I, I think the S1s side by side would show a company that is losing momentum and is spending way too much money and losing too much money, and I think the bankers have come back and said, "Default."

Kara Swisher 17:42 They don't want the comparison.

Scott Galloway 17:43 Well, this is what's gonna happen in the next six months. This is gonna be the great exit from cost. This is gonna be the great reduction in spending and CapEx commitments by OpenAI. They are gonna massively decrease their expenditure and CapEx commitments, 'cause I think the bank-

Kara Swisher 18:02 And it hits Oracle. It hits a lot of them. It hits all of them, right?

Scott Galloway 18:05 It's still an amazing company. It's still growing really fast. But the, the amount of money they were committing to in terms of CapEx has gotten out of control, and then you couple that with a reversal in momentum. I think Goldman and JP Morgan and the CFO have said to Sam, "Uh, this is gonna be hard."

Kara Swisher 18:24 So, so then what do they do? If, is it, is it, if Anthropic gets out at over a trillion, they've gotta meet that, right? Speaking of dick measuring contests, they kind of want that number. Can they g- actually get out then in 2027?

Scott Galloway 18:38 Oh, I think, I think this is a cost story, and that is, I think they're just gonna have to reduce their commitments or-

Kara Swisher 18:42 They gotta clean it up. They gotta clean it up

Scott Galloway 18:44 ... Yeah, because, okay, say they get out at 700 and not a trillion, that's still pretty good. [laughs] I mean-

Kara Swisher 18:49 Yeah. No, I get it

Scott Galloway 18:50 ... at some point, at some point-

Kara Swisher 18:51 This is all-

Scott Galloway 18:51 ... they're gonna need to raise capital in the public markets, I think, or maybe could they raise in the pr- private markets? The weird thing is, I wonder if TPG and the private equity firms that got a 16 or a 17% pick, which is really, or guaranteed return, which is really unusual in the private markets, I wonder if they would still do that deal today because the reversal in fortunes here has been like nothing I've ever seen in business without a scandal. And so-

Kara Swisher 19:16 Weird question, does it get bought?

Scott Galloway 19:18 There's so few players that could buy it. I mean, it's a handful of companies that could afford to buy it. It's one of the big tech companies or SpaceX. That's it. There's maybe five comp-

Kara Swisher 19:27 There was all this online plotting that Elon did, sort of bought to made sure that SpaceX IPO was too big and then failed a little bit to stop them, just so you know. There was a conspiracy theory.

Scott Galloway 19:37 Well, if the next round... See, rather than do a down round, uh, what Altman did was he, he, he offered-

Kara Swisher 19:44 Yeah, he guaranteed it. He guaranteed it

Scott Galloway 19:45 ... Yeah, he offered these, these terms that typically you don't agree to, I, a guaranteed return, because he wanted the headline number to be whatever it was, 850 billion-

Kara Swisher 19:52 850

Scott Galloway 19:52 ... or whatever.

Kara Swisher 19:53 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 19:53 But at some point, if they start running into a cash crunch, which I don't think they will, at, at the bottom line, I think the second half of 2026 is about Sam Altman rationalizing the expense side of the business and their CapEx, uh, commitments, 'cause it's still growing like crazy.

Kara Swisher 20:08 And then Anthropic goes out, doesn't delay, goes out.

Scott Galloway 20:11 If I were Dario, I'd wanna be like, "I'm on top, bitch. I'm going public."

Kara Swisher 20:15 Yeah, yeah, right away. Yeah, they've got to. It's a momentum story for them, absolutely.

Scott Galloway 20:20 And they have a great story. I think the S1 is gonna look really good for Anthropic.

Kara Swisher 20:24 Yeah, in comparison. I mean, what's really interesting is how, uh, kind of pissy the OpenAI people are about the story Dario gets over and over again. I mean, he can be imperious himself and, you know, a little bit self-righteous, which is interesting, but, uh, I think he's got the better story, he does, and a lot of this is narrative, and it actually would be good for Anthropic for n- not to have them there, although, you know, looking better than OpenAI is a good thing for them, right? Presumably.

Scott Galloway 20:51 This is the CFO and JPMorgan and Goldman Sachs said, "Uh, you don't want these numbers public right now."

Kara Swisher 20:57 Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely, and by the way, the perception to the ones that did go public wasn't great. Um, all right, we'll see what happens. Interesting story, interesting developing story, but it will if- impact companies like Oracle and other ones. You, you saw that draw just a, a small drawdown of their shares, uh, 'cause they have so many commitments all around the board. All right, Scott, let's go on a quick break. When we come back, we'll discuss Pete Buttigieg getting targeted.

Scott Galloway 21:21 [gentle music] Support for the show comes from Odoo. There's an endless supply of software out there that promises to streamline your workflow. That may be true for a specific aspect of your business, but if you need one app for accounting, one for inventory management, and another for sales, how streamlined can your workflow actually be if you have to be the middleman between them? Odoo says they're the answer you're looking for, the only business software you'll ever need. Odoo can be your one-stop shop for CRM, accounting, inventory, e-commerce, HR, and more. Plus, it's super customizable and easy to use out of the box, and the best part? They say not only can they replace multiple applications, but they say they'll do it for a fraction of the cost. Whether you're just starting out or already well on your way to scaling, Odoo wants to help you put the clutter aside so that you can do what you set out to do when you started your company. Thousands of businesses have made the switch, so why not you? Try Odoo for free at odoo.com. That's Odoo, O-D-O-O .com.

Kara Swisher 22:18 Uh, Scott, we're back. I wanna talk about a story that came out over the weekend about Pete Buttigieg's

Kara Swisher 22:22 family. Buttigieg says police showed up at his house after an anonymous tip claimed his four-year-old twins were at risk. CPS investigated the claim, and the Michigan State Police later confirmed the report was completely fabricated. Uh, while the incident was being investigated, Buttigieg was not allowed to be alone with his four-year-old children for 24 hours, and they were interviewed by authorities without either parent present. The incident happened during Pride Month, right after the family posted a Father's Day, uh, photos online. Uh, I was, uh, this was terrifying to someone like myself. This was like it was just some tip that was called in about another tip of something Pete allegedly... It was all nonsense from the... But they had to because they're authorities and he's a well-known person. They had to actually investigate, which is their job. I think they felt sick to do it, but, uh, it turned out to be all false. Uh, uh, it, it, it's a, it's a version of swatting, but more nefarious.

Scott Galloway 23:13 Swarming.

Kara Swisher 23:14 Swarming or whatever. Uh, and you know, he's polling well for the 2028 presidential run. This is just, I can't imagine. I know, I know them pretty well. I know, uh, especially Chasten. Uh, uh, you know, this is the fear they have as gay parents, and w- as something I've discussed with them. You know, this is the fear. This is this sort of weird feeling people have about gay parenting that is just, it's, I don't even wanna call it gay parenting, just parenting, um, but that they get stuck with. Um, they are wonderful parents, and these kids are lovely, uh, and for them to have to go through this just sent a chill when I read his piece, and he's not someone who usually is particularly dramatic, but he was f- furious about what happened, as he should've been. Any, any thoughts on this?

Scott Galloway 23:59 I don't think this is a gay thing. I think this is stochastic terrorism. I, I know a couple-

Kara Swisher 24:04 Oh, interesting

Scott Galloway 24:04 ... I know a couple, a straight couple in the Midwest, and Child Protective Services showed up at their door one day and said, "We need... We're from Child Protective Services. We need to speak to your children." They had no idea what was going on. Uh, by the way, the whole neighborhood found out about it. There's no way you recover from that. No, no matter how innocent you are proven, that's on your Wikipedia page.

Kara Swisher 24:24 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 24:24 If you're ever on trial for anything, the prosecutor can ask, "Weren't Child Protective Services called to your house?"

Kara Swisher 24:29 Right.

Scott Galloway 24:30 And when I go through TSA, I immediately feel guilty. I immediately like, "Oh, where's that joint in my po- I've done something wrong." When they, when you see your suitcase go to the, go to the part of the, the, the part where they, they investigate it, you immediately feel guilty. How does a four-year-old not remember that strangers who you're supposed to speak to, who have the authority to separate f- you from your parents, start asking these types of questions, how do you not somewhere in your brain think, "Are mommy and daddy not good people?"

Kara Swisher 25:01 Right.

Scott Galloway 25:01 How, how do you-

Kara Swisher 25:01 100%.

Scott Galloway 25:02 How do the parents, the community, their reputation, and the kids ever recover from that?

Kara Swisher 25:09 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 25:09 Ever.

Kara Swisher 25:09 I agree.

Scott Galloway 25:10 And this is the problem. This is a result of the fetishization and anonymity being linked to shareholder value. And that is, uh, democracy depends upon disagreement, but also accountability. And when the loudest voices face no consequences, the most thoughtful ones log off in fear. And what happens here is the following. I- i- Child Protective Services, their heart is in the right place. They're trying to encourage people to, to, to bubble up real instances of child abuse.

Kara Swisher 25:46 Yeah, because they usually miss a lot of them, right? You know, that's, that's what-

Scott Galloway 25:49 That's right

Kara Swisher 25:50 ... the alarm goes.

Scott Galloway 25:50 But here's the problem, and here's what needs to be done. The fix isn't to end anonymity. It's smarter than that. The solution is verified yet anonymous credentialing, and that is online, there should be a digital stamp that proves you are a unique human being without revealing which human you are. When you call Child Protective Services, and as it ended up, so the family I was referencing, you know what it ended up? Two months later, they found out one of their daughters was in a beef with another girl in the same high school, and the girl, the rival girl-

Kara Swisher 26:26 Oh, God

Scott Galloway 26:26 ... called.

Kara Swisher 26:27 Wow.

Scott Galloway 26:28 This happens all over. But here's the problem. The family faces no consequence. So if you call Child Protective Services, uh, we're gonna guarantee your anonymity. But after investigation, if we find out there's no evidence, guess what?

Kara Swisher 26:45 We come for you.

Scott Galloway 26:46 We're gonna investigate you.

Kara Swisher 26:47 I agree. I was, I was like, "Who are these people who did this?" And, you know, swatting is bad. Swatting is dangerous because there's guns involved, like with kids and everything else. And to me, uh, so heinous, the idea of it. Uh, swatting is when you call in that there's some terrible thing happening at the house, and then, you know, SWAT teams come in, a- as they should when, 'cause they never know, right? And so this is such an abuse of a system that's already broken, right? It's already a problematic system. They don't catch enough child abuse, and sometimes kids don't get checked on, and you read those stories over and over again. But in this case, what, what sick fuck would think of this thing? Like, what sick fuck would make this stuff up? That to me, and I would like to find them, and you know what I'd do to them. But y- I think the authorities really need to have a system. A- and it, y- the thing is, you don't wanna discourage people from telling on real issues of abuse-

Scott Galloway 27:40 Sure

Kara Swisher 27:41 ... right? That's the thing. It's a, ugh, it's just, I, I was so upset by this.

Scott Galloway 27:45 But the bigger issue is the following. That same architecture, anonymous, consequence-free, uh, infinitely scalable, uh, online platforms, they let bots flood elections, radicalize millions, and make public service a target sport. And s- the bottom line is, this is where the right gets it wrong and the left gets it wrong. The internet doesn't have a speech problem; it has an accountability problem. And our fetishization for free speech and anonymity has resulted in a total lack of accountability. If you believe the kids across the street are being abused, and Child Protective Services shows up, and they find out, oh, you misunderstood the situation, you're still not liable. You didn't do anything wrong. Your, your reasons were valid. But if it finds out you're just a homophobic fucking weirdo, or your, your daughter has had a beef with the other d- with, w- with-

Kara Swisher 28:40 Yeah

Scott Galloway 28:40 ... another girl in the high school-

Kara Swisher 28:41 There should be consequences

Scott Galloway 28:42 ... there's consequences.

Kara Swisher 28:43 There sh- I think Pete was talking about that. I know they're worried about this, these issues, as gay parents, as we all are, because I was always worried about-- Mmm, I've been-- It just sticks in the back of your mind. If it prevents him from running, which, uh, is really-

Scott Galloway 28:58 No.

Kara Swisher 28:58 Um, I hope it doesn't.

Scott Galloway 28:59 No.

Kara Swisher 28:59 That's what I hope it doesn't. I mean, 'cause let me just say, they're wonderful parents. They're wonderful people, and they're wonderful parents.

Scott Galloway 29:06 Yeah, but what do you say to the kids? And there's these strange people in suits saying, "We need you to go stay..."

Kara Swisher 29:12 Yeah. The whole thing is-

Scott Galloway 29:14 Like, what do you say to your kids?

Kara Swisher 29:16 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 29:16 Like, like a four-year-old? What do you say to them?

Kara Swisher 29:18 I, I wouldn't even-- I don't even wanna think about it. It was so upsetting. Anyway, uh, Pete, uh, and, and Cheston, we're so sorry. This is just l-- This is disgusting, and this is not how you behave towards people who are decent, great parents. And, uh, whoever did this, I hope they find you, and I hope you have some sort of reckoning. As of this recording, by the way, we're gonna move on. House Speaker Mike Johnson says he's sending the landmark

Kara Swisher 29:40 housing bill to the White House days after Trump abruptly canceled the signing ceremony for that bill. Interesting move. The bill, which passed both houses of Congress with overwhelming bipartisan support, aims to-- and also would be a win for Trump, aims to bring down housing costs, expand homeownership, and boost construction. But Trump says he won't sign it into law until Congress passes his Save America Act, which would require a photo ID to vote and effectively end mail-in voting. By the way, the Supreme Court just upheld a Mississippi law for late-arriving mail-in ballots, a blow to the Trump administration's efforts to queer the election, which is what they're trying to do. Uh, and the housing bill can still become law even if Trump doesn't sign it. So it's technical. If he doesn't sign it, it can become law. If he vetoes it, I believe they have the votes to overcome his veto, so they're kinda putting him in a position. Uh, under the Constitution, the president doesn't sign a bill within 10 days, it becomes law without a signature. And again, Congress can override this one. And so it was interesting that Johnson did this. He obviously knows it's a good thing for, to have this on the Republican record, or at least take credit for it, even though it's kinda bipartisan. Uh, thoughts on that?

Scott Galloway 30:47 Housing is one of the biggest problems in America, whether it's I was reading this morning that Finland took an opposite route. Instead of focusing on mental health or veterans affairs for the homeless, they just focus on housing. They're like, "Just build cheap housing and get people in housing." And it ends up that housing is a weird form of birth control, that every 10% increase in housing prices, birth rates go down 1%. It reduces people coupling, it reduces birth rates, it reduces self-esteem. You know, housing, uh, affordable housing is really important. And what we have here is, again, the incumbents, once they've owned homes, make it more and more difficult for new permits. It's gone way too far. Uh, Congress, to their credit, recognized it. This bill attempts to get rid of NIMBY legislation and propose YIMBY re- legislation, credits f- more credits, more s- federal sponsorship for communities that have more housing. This is-- I actually thought the bill itself, when you read it, is pretty weak sauce, but it's a very strong sy- symbolic-

Kara Swisher 31:52 Mm-hmm. I agree

Scott Galloway 31:52 ... movement in the right direction.

Kara Swisher 31:53 Correct. Yeah.

Scott Galloway 31:53 And in addition, when does the last time Congress voted 358 to 32 on anything? [chuckles]

Kara Swisher 32:00 Right. Right.

Scott Galloway 32:01 So this makes all sorts of sense. Trump getting in the way of this was just stupid. And again, it's veto-proof, so I, I think this is a win.

Kara Swisher 32:10 What does he do? What does he do? Sign-- He's gotta sign it and take credit, right?

Scott Galloway 32:13 Oh, yeah, I think so. I, I don't-

Kara Swisher 32:14 He should. But he's gonna, he's still gonna try everything possible. This SAVE Act, that's not gonna pass, President Trump. It's not.

Scott Galloway 32:21 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 32:21 It's not happening. So why does he keep doing this?

Scott Galloway 32:25 Oh, shit. I, I mean, you're asking me to get into this guy's brain.

Kara Swisher 32:28 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 32:28 I would've thought he would-- If I were-

Kara Swisher 32:29 Sign it. Second it

Scott Galloway 32:30 ... advising him, I would say, "Oh my God, put on-

Kara Swisher 32:32 Right

Scott Galloway 32:33 ... put on a, a, put, put on a tool belt like you're on a construction site and-

Kara Swisher 32:37 Mm-hmm

Scott Galloway 32:37 ... and run around the-

Kara Swisher 32:37 Yeah, that's his thing

Scott Galloway 32:38 ... and take credit for this thing.

Kara Swisher 32:39 Yes.

Scott Galloway 32:39 Take credit for, uh, housing. This is, this is a big, big issue for Americans.

Kara Swisher 32:46 Right. Right. You know, instead he's obsessed with, you know, now he wants to build a golf course and put trees in front of the White House. He's just obsessed with all these weird, uh, obsessive things around the DC area to preserve his legacy, which seems more interest to him. He went and visited. It was pouring rain yesterday, and he was out at Haines Point, where he wants to put in a, a golf course of some sort. Uh, there is a golf course. Everybody wants to improve it. Um, and then putting maple trees around Lafayette Square, all this stuff, and then, of course, touting his really loser, uh, s- American State Fair, whatever, that was... nobody went to. Um, he just seems all obsessed with that kind of stuff and not something that is e- even if it's symbolically, is... E-even symbolically, it's important to, to... I don't get this. This is, this guy. I, I think he's terrified that things are gonna go very badly after November, and so it seems to-- he's gonna self-soothe with maple trees.

Scott Galloway 33:38 There you go. Self-soothe.

Kara Swisher 33:40 Self-soothe, right. But he should take credit for this one, and he won't. Um, all right, Scott, we'll be, uh, we're gonna have one more quick break. We'll be back for wins and fails. [whooshing] Okay, Scott, we're gonna do some wins and fails. I think I shall go first.

Scott Galloway 33:51 You go first.

Kara Swisher 33:51 There were so many

Kara Swisher 33:52 fail choices, the grift watch of the Trump mining deal in Kazakhstan with Don and Eric stand to profit along with, uh, Lutnik's Lutnik family. Um, the, what's happening in Venezuela is really depressing, watching them try to find people. So many people have died. But I'm gonna be a little personal here. There's two people who died this week, uh, who I know very well and were very impactful on my life. One was, uh, Om Malik, uh, one of the very early tech bloggers, uh, someone who had worked very like me in regular media, um, but then sort of spun off and started doing a really fascinating kind of bloggy and yet fully reported, uh, attitude, uh, attitudinal stuff back, way back in the day, an excellent reporter. He also did events. He did parties. And I really, I got a lot of inspiration from Om, who was one of the most jolly fellows. Uh, I just really enjoyed Om. We fought a lot about a lot of things, but what an amazing impact he had on early tech journalism when it was a lot more help-- you know, a lot more hopeful in a lot of ways. But he actually did call people on things very early. Very wonderful guy. Um, he had, uh, you know, he had shifted to becoming a venture capitalist. I didn't go, though, that direction. Um, but just a really wonderful... And he's getting much deserved, um, praise from all of us who were around then. And he struggled with heart issues for a long, long time and, uh, was, uh, just a really wonderful guy. The other one was my assistant. I don't have an assistant, but I did for many years. Ed Daly also died. Um, another-- He had also had health problems with, around diabetes and everything else, and just a tremendous important part of the growth of my businesses in the beginning, uh, of them, and worked for me for a long time, was an invaluable help, and i- you know, the kind of person you don't hear about. He wasn't a reporter, but did so much stuff to really build the businesses Walt and I built, um, and just was a wonderful guy and was wonderful to my kids, uh, especially Louie and Alex, took them on camping trips with his partner, Mark, and just, just a one, one of these hardworking, really wonderful people who, who helped so many people and, uh, just really sad. I'm sorry he-- Louie just went to see him recently, so I'm glad that happened, but really big impact on my life and, uh, just a tremendously huge-hearted person. Uh, so that is my fail. Um, uh, although I, I, I also-- my heart goes out to people in Venezuela and everything else. Um, and my win is the Supreme Court just rejected Trump's attempt to get a $5 million verdict in the E. Jean Carroll [chuckles] sexual abuse case tossed out. This is the end of the road for him. Now, I think he's gonna s- I just texted Robby Kaplan. Let me see if she wrote back. But, uh, who is the lawyer in the case. Um, we'll see where it goes, uh, on the smaller verdict. He has to pay the $5 million. There is the 80, I think $85 million, $80 million verdict that is still being disputed, uh, but he has to give her the $5 million, um, and which I just kinda love, uh, and now he is very firmly What he is accused of, he did, um, and he can't take it any further. Uh, and we'll see on the second part of it, which is a defama- had defamation related to this case. Um, anyway, good for E. Jean Carroll, and pay up Donald Trump, you, for what you did to her. And I just felt that it was like, today is the day that the Supreme Court kicks Trump in the teeth a little bit, uh, after giving him a lot of wins on immigration, uh, which were... That the Haitians, particularly the Haitian ruling, was really terrible for really hardworking people in this country. Um, in any case, uh, congratulations to E. Jean Carroll.

Scott Galloway 37:23 Nice. So, uh, okay. So my fail is, uh, I can't get over-- Well, you could argue it's a win for, uh, broadcast news, but there were two really illuminating interviews, uh, this weekend. The first was John Karl, uh, from ABC News interviewed Senator Todd Young and, uh, along with, uh, Senator Mark Kelly.

Kara Swisher 37:49 I saw that.

Scott Galloway 37:49 And they talked about how President Trump accused Mark Kelly of sedition. Senator Kelly flew combat missions and also flew the space shuttle at 20,000 fucking miles an hour. I mean, there are few things more patriotic or, than, than the actions of Senator Mark Kelly. And, uh, and they asked, I, I appreciate John Karl calling Senator Todd Young out in front and say, "How come you didn't... Do you agree with this?" And of course, Senator Todd Young broke into song about, he texted Senator Kelly to make sure he was all right, but he didn't say a fucking word.

Kara Swisher 38:27 He didn't.

Scott Galloway 38:28 And at some point, I'm waiting for people before they are, you know, lose their primary. Let me-- A- at NYU, we have, we have a second year, which is really a waste of money. It's such that we can charge the kids 140,000, not 70. And we teach all these electives like sustainability and leadership and ethics. Let me save you $7,000 on the leadership course of any major university. Do the right thing even when it's hard. There, you just saved $7,000. And we bring in a formerly important person to talk about what a fucking amazing person they are and how the world was against them, but they did the right thing, and we call it a leadership course. Thank you for your $7,000 in student debt. It, there is such a lack of leadership on the most obvious issues, and I don't understand the calculus from a senator who I believe is a, probably a good man and respects his fellow colleague coming out and saying, "It is wrong to accuse Senator Kelly, an American hero and patriot, of sedition." That is just beyond the line. And then the same time, um, Ryan Nobles, who was an outstanding stand-in for Kis- Kirsten Welker, who I also think is wonderful on Meet the Press, basically kinda got in the face of Senator Roger Marshall and asked him to cite a single example of where voter fraud has influenced an election.

Kara Swisher 39:53 He did a great job.

Scott Galloway 39:55 And I thought he... [chuckles] I watched it, I'm like, "Go." And, and of course, this guy just went into blather and, and-

Kara Swisher 40:02 Doctors need to be trusted by... I was like, "What in the fuck does that have to do?"

Scott Galloway 40:05 What is he talking about?

Kara Swisher 40:06 He's a doctor.

Scott Galloway 40:06 Or that pilots need to be... And it's like-

Kara Swisher 40:09 Pi- what was the pilot?

Scott Galloway 40:10 Okay, but there's no problem here.

Kara Swisher 40:12 Right.

Scott Galloway 40:12 Planes crash. There, there is no, no one has ever been able to provide evidence that a single election has been influenced, much less decided-

Kara Swisher 40:21 No

Scott Galloway 40:21 ... by voter fraud.

Kara Swisher 40:22 This guy's been all over the TV, the Dr. Roger from Kansas, uh, the senator, and he's doing the same song and dance everywhere. I don't know why. Maybe he's in a tough fight. I don't know. It's weird. He does this a lot. He's just done this a lot.

Scott Galloway 40:35 Well, I understand that the only way you can do good is to get elected, but at some point, they've gotta recognize that, you know, this guy is coming, is becoming a lame traducan, as you would say. And at some point, they're gonna show something resembling leadership. And I can't, I can't square the calculus of a senator coming out and saying, "Senator Kelly is an American hero."

Kara Swisher 40:56 Here, exactly. I don't get it. It's the same thing when they, when Fox News was broadcasting from that American states thing, which looks like a, like the Fyre Festival. And they're like, "Look at all the people." And I'm like, "There's nobody behind you." Like, how do they do that? Peter Doocy, how did you manage to do that? "Oh, everyone's having fun here," and there's 26 people there. And it was so weird. I don't get it. Like, when are they gonna give? When are they gonna give? When do you think they're gonna give on? Same thing with this guy. It's like, you know, don't believe your lying eyes kinda thing. I don't know.

Scott Galloway 41:27 Anyways, I, I guess it's sort of a win for, for, uh, ABC and NBC News and these, these programs still matter. Despite their declining audiences, they do, are still really relevant. And specifically, uh, it just strikes me at some point, senators who are elected to six-year terms, uh, at some point are gonna begin-

Kara Swisher 41:46 Come on, yeah

Scott Galloway 41:47 ... to understand that, okay, with the definition of, quote-unquote, "leadership." My, my win is that Bill Maher was awarded the, um, um-

Kara Swisher 41:57 Mark Twain Award

Scott Galloway 41:58 ... the Mark Twain Award. And I thought it was really fitting that it was at the Kennedy Center. Uh, but, uh, look, I have said this. Something I don't like about myself is I have been way too influenced by comments in social media, which I think are so fucking corrosive 'cause they start influencing you to say this type of thing and not this type of thing. And I've tried really hard in the last couple years to say, "I'm gonna say what I mean, mean what I say, and I don't care what the comments are." There are very few posts that get as much blowback as when I say the following, and I mean it. Bill Maher is a hero of mine. And I think if you were to take every political pundit and have at zero say, I don't know who the craziest right-wing person is, and on 100 be the craziest left-wing person, if I had to identify someone who was exactly at 50, it would be Bill Maher And evidence that he is a centrist is that everyone appears to hate the guy publicly, and then every podcast I go on, the host, when I follow up and say, "Is there anything I can do to help you?" They ask me can I, can I introduce them to someone at Bill Maher.

Kara Swisher 43:04 Oh, interesting.

Scott Galloway 43:05 The guy has been in the business for thirty-three years. He is fearless.

Kara Swisher 43:09 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 43:09 He is funny. His contribution isn't defending the idea that people, uh, who disagree should be allowed in the same room. It's that the weirdest thing is that it's so remarkable, and today that is remarkable. And he, he didn't build an audience by telling people what they wanted to hear. He built one by telling everyone something they didn't want to hear. He literally pisses off everybody.

Kara Swisher 43:30 Yeah, which is why he gets a blowback. I mean, he does, he does seek out, like, the, his earlier stuff on Islam and stuff like that. So he, he is who he is. And I do-- I'm always fascinated by how much I get blowback on your behalf, which is interesting. Um, or why are you on that show when I go on, I, I... It's a really interesting discussion, and I don't, I don't lump him in with all the others who I do find somewhat heinous in that regard. And I agree, I think he deserved that. I think he's very funny. I think he, uh, I don't always agree with him, that's for sure. Um, but it really is-

Scott Galloway 44:02 That's the point.

Kara Swisher 44:03 Yeah. I, I don't find it, um... I don't know. He attracts an unusual amount of ire. He really does. [laughs]

Scott Galloway 44:10 Uh, uh, you will get pushback on this. I, when I say he's a role model of mine-

Kara Swisher 44:13 Yeah

Scott Galloway 44:13 ... there are a few, like, when I gradu- I was trying to think. When I graduated from college, when I got my first bonus check, when I sold my first business, there are moments in your life that you remember professionally. One of those biggest moments for me was three or four years ago during COVID when Susan Bennett called me and said, "We'd like you to be on Bill Maher," 'cause it's the only show my dad watches.

Kara Swisher 44:31 Susan's a producer for him currently.

Scott Galloway 44:32 She's a producer.

Kara Swisher 44:33 Terrific producer.

Scott Galloway 44:34 And I think the guy is, is fearless, and he, he, he brings to light the notion that free speech isn't, isn't tested by popular opinions. It's tested by the people who piss you off. And, and he does that, and he's an-

Kara Swisher 44:48 He does

Scott Galloway 44:48 ... equal opportunity, um, agitator, and, uh, he, he was one of the last people in television willing to, to make both sides equally uncomfortable. I mean, he's really an independent voice, and I don't think it, his contribution will be remembered as changing minds. It was proving that you can disagree without deciding the other person is evil. And his legacy, although he's a great comedian, I don't think his legacy is comedy. It's defending the proposition that democracy requires conversation, not just conviction, and we have lost so much of that. I don't know him. I, I sort of know him, but don't know him well. But the people he surrounds himself with, here's some things about Bill Maher. He has this big rant on how he doesn't have kids and doesn't-

Kara Swisher 45:31 Family

Scott Galloway 45:31 ... get married.

Kara Swisher 45:32 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 45:32 Everyone around him has been working with him for twenty years.

Kara Swisher 45:35 Yeah, that is true.

Scott Galloway 45:36 The woman in makeup, the guy who-

Kara Swisher 45:37 Yeah

Scott Galloway 45:37 ... brings you to your COVID test, his producers. I think he's a very loyal man. I think he shows up. I think he works very hard. I think he's unafraid. I think he's a great role model for people who, like me, want to be centrist, distinct of the, the hate you get because you piss off everybody. I thought he's an outstanding-

Kara Swisher 45:57 Yeah

Scott Galloway 45:57 ... recipient for the Mark Twain Prize. Anyways, my-

Kara Swisher 46:00 Yeah, I would agree

Scott Galloway 46:00 ... my win is the unafraid, courageous, uh, believer in free speech that pisses off everybody, and everybody wants to be on his show after thirty-three years, and that is Bill Maher.

Kara Swisher 46:12 Well, good for you. Good for you. You do care about comments, Scott. You're never gonna not care about comments. Never. You-

Scott Galloway 46:18 Well, I'm addicted to the affirmation of others, Kara.

Kara Swisher 46:20 You're, but you're-

Scott Galloway 46:21 It's really pathetic

Kara Swisher 46:22 ... it's not pathetic. You're, it's not pathetic. Don't give yourself a hard time. It does get to you. It gets-- It doesn't get to me as much as it gets to you, but it gets to me, too. I mean, I think it's, uh, I think you will-- It's okay for it, uh, to hurt, I have to tell you. [laughs]

Scott Galloway 46:36 Well, shaming is a very popular, a very powerful feeling because until about fifty years ago, if you were shamed and expunged from the tribe, it meant you were gonna starve or beaten by a bear in-

Kara Swisher 46:47 Yeah

Scott Galloway 46:47 ... seventy-two hours or less.

Kara Swisher 46:48 Well, you're not gonna get eaten by a bear.

Scott Galloway 46:49 Yeah, I don't think so. I don't think so.

Kara Swisher 46:51 You're vulgar, but you're not getting eaten by a bear. But no, I agree with you. I think Bill deserved that award, and I know people, you know, we often disagree. We really do. Listen, if you don't like Bill Maher, don't watch him.

Scott Galloway 47:01 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 47:01 I don't know what else to say.

Scott Galloway 47:02 Exactly.

Kara Swisher 47:02 That's my feeling. It's like, that's what I say to people. And by the way, you know, people in my family, my, one of my kids was like, "Why are you going on his show?" And I'm like, "You know what? It's none of your fucking business. I am 'cause I like, I like going on it. I enjoy the show." So, uh-

Scott Galloway 47:14 I'm going way, I'm going go, I'm going on later, I'm going on, I think, July twenty-ninth. I'm gonna take my, I'm gonna take Beata, and I'm gonna take my, both my sons. And-

Kara Swisher 47:22 Oh, interesting

Scott Galloway 47:22 ... I never take them all to anything, and I said, "This is important to me. I want you to come with me."

Kara Swisher 47:26 Anyway, uh, good ones. Good ones for you. That was a good one. Um, can I do one more brief fill? And I don't want any-- I just wanna say Scott Wiener is a friend of mine, and what happened to him in San Francisco this week was heinous.

Scott Galloway 47:38 Exactly.

Kara Swisher 47:38 Like, I don't usually mind criticism around, uh, of Israel, and I think it's really important for, and I don't think every criticism of Israel is anti-Semitic. But what happened to him, and he has been a supporter of all manner of things in San Francisco, he's, it was, was anti-Semitic. It was really, truly, and strange. And that kind of, that really shouldn't... I feel terrible for Scott for, 'cause he's been... You know, there's lots of things you could disagree with Scott on, but not what they were yelling at him about. And so it had a real tinge of real hatred, and I, that is a real, that really repulsed me in a way that I usually am okay with some critic- with criticism of all manner of countries and stuff like that. And so just, that cannot be tolerated by the Democrats. That cannot be tolerated, that kind of behavior. So I would just wanna say that, but I feel bad for Scott, who's been a really, um, hardworking public servant. Anyway, um, all right. So that's the show. Um, congratulations to Bill Maher. We wanna hear from you. Send us your questions about business, tech or whatever's on your mind. Go to nymag.com/pivot to submit a question for the show, or call eight five five five one pivot. Elsewhere in the Kara and Scott universe this week and on, I just spoke to Jim Bankoff, the CEO of Vox Media, and Meredith, uh, Kopit Levien, president and CEO of The New York Times, at Cannes Lions, uh, which was really fun. We talked about the ways they adapted to a changing media landscape and the effects of AI on publishing, and it was a great session. And thanks to UTA for hosting us, uh, and keeping it quiet. Let's listen to a clip.

Speaker 49:17 The leverage is even the LLMs will need, uh, an information ecosystem with high quality, independently produced, verified information. If they don't have it, their products will not ultimately be good either. We all wanna live in a society where quality information is available, and I believe they do too. And I think that's leverage.

Kara Swisher 49:39 So you believe they do too?

Speaker 49:40 I think that they, the, they're, these are information companies. These are information tools, and I think informa- they, at a certain point, for you to have a healthy, functioning democracy, you have to have high quality information, and people have to be able to identify the difference.

Kara Swisher 50:01 This was a really good, uh, discussion, and we had a little testiness around some, a couple of things. But, uh, they, it was great. It was a really interesting discussion about media and where it's going, and Meredith. Uh, both Scott and I have huge regard for her, and that Jim Bankoff guy is nice, too. Um, okay.

Scott Galloway 50:14 So you want a little known fact about the CEO-

Kara Swisher 50:16 What?

Scott Galloway 50:16 ... of New York Times?

Kara Swisher 50:17 No, let me tell. What?

Scott Galloway 50:18 She's got a dreamy boyfriend.

Kara Swisher 50:20 Oh, she does.

Scott Galloway 50:20 He's a tall drink of lemonade.

Kara Swisher 50:21 [laughs] She does.

Scott Galloway 50:22 Have you met him?

Kara Swisher 50:23 Yes, I have. Yeah.

Scott Galloway 50:23 I went up to her and I'm like, "That guy, dude's so handsome." And she looked around and she's like, "I know."

Kara Swisher 50:28 Yeah, he's great.

Scott Galloway 50:28 He's like literally like a, you know.

Kara Swisher 50:29 He's great. [laughs]

Scott Galloway 50:29 I'll take my masculinity to go. Jesus Christ.

Kara Swisher 50:32 She's a, I, I love everything about Meredith. I think she's a great, uh, executive. She's a great parent. Um, she's really, she's, she's all that and a bag of chips, as they say.

Scott Galloway 50:41 There you go.

Kara Swisher 50:42 And so sh- so lucky for him to have her. Okay. Uh, that's the show. Thanks for listening to Pivot, and be sure to like and subscribe to our YouTube channel. We'll be back on Friday. [upbeat music]