PivotNatalie Harp is Giving Us "Fatal Attraction" Vibes | Pivot
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
65 min read · 13,109 words- 0:00 – 4:44
Intro
- JWJennifer Welch
I think it would be hilarious if like, "Okay, we're changing Lake Michigan to Lake Obama."
- KSKara Swisher
Lake Epstein.
- JWJennifer Welch
[laughs] Exactly. [upbeat music]
- KSKara Swisher
Hi, everyone. This is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Kara Swisher, and it's the final week of- [upbeat music] Got Three August. [horn blaring] My guest today is the co-host of the I've Had It podcast and IHIP News and author of the upcoming book, Not Today, Fascist. It's, of course, Jennifer Welch. Hey, Jennifer.
- JWJennifer Welch
Hi, Kara. How are you?
- KSKara Swisher
Good.
- JWJennifer Welch
Thanks for having me.
- KSKara Swisher
Good. Thank you for being here. You've been on a bit of a roll. You've been on a bit of a roll [laughs] of places.
- JWJennifer Welch
I'm always getting in trouble.
- KSKara Swisher
I know.
- JWJennifer Welch
I'm always stepping in it. Yeah.
- KSKara Swisher
You're always step-- What's your latest step in it? What have you done?
- JWJennifer Welch
Well, they're really mad at me about the homeschooling. Um-
- KSKara Swisher
Oh, what happened?
- JWJennifer Welch
And then recently, a friend sent me a tweet that, 'cause I said I, I think that Melania was purposeful and intentional in her documentary, that she wanted everybody to know that she doesn't sleep with Donald Trump.
- KSKara Swisher
Oh, okay.
- JWJennifer Welch
Well, this got clipped up on right-wing media-
- KSKara Swisher
Right
- JWJennifer Welch
... in, at the Heartbreak Hotel in the comment section, 'cause I think surely there's nobody left in the cult, and it's like, "They do too sleep together. They love each other. At least somebody loves him. Nobody loves you." I mean, they were really defending hardcore, and I'm like, "She doesn't sleep with him."
- KSKara Swisher
She doesn't. Why are they... What, what... You didn't, you still believe that people have left the cult. I don't believe that at all. I think they're in it to win it at this point. They're like-
- JWJennifer Welch
No, I agree with you.
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah.
- JWJennifer Welch
I, I think they're in it to win it. I do.
- KSKara Swisher
Right. What, what, how do you, h- what is the reaction when you do things like this? Like today, Not Today, Fascist, for example. Explain the name of your upcoming book. It's kind of apparent.
- JWJennifer Welch
Okay, so obviously I grew up in the Bible Belt, and so, uh, in Bible culture, everybody would say, "Not today, Satan." And so when we did, when we were, when I was writing the book and we were coming up with a title, it's when Stephen Miller was like, "You can't call us fascist, and we're gonna make it, you know, a, a, a, fighting words or an act of terrorism to call us fascist," and I'm like, "Oh, I'm gonna put that in the title. I'm gonna call them exactly what they are. I'm not going to bend the knee."
- KSKara Swisher
Right.
- JWJennifer Welch
And so I wanted that front and center in the title, Not Today, Fascist.
- KSKara Swisher
That's an excellent name. But, but w- talk, talk about sort of the reaction to you. Has it gotten worse or be- 'cause I was talking to Maggie Haberman, and she was saying the, the, the hits aga- the hits that Trump does doesn't quite hit it as much as they used to. I mean, she, he just attacked her this week, for example, called her ugly, I think, and a bunch of other things.
- JWJennifer Welch
Well, it depends. Like right now, Hasan Piker is really captivating the space where a lot of people would be critical of me. Um, but right-wing media loves to, um, clip me up and go bananas. I recently said, I know what they're really mad at. So I recently said that as a woman who grew up in the Bible Belt, Sharia law or radical Islam is not a threat. Radical Christianity, fundamentalist Christianity is a far bigger threat to women, a far bigger threat to children, a far bigger threat in the United States of America, and they have gone bananas, and they don't get it. They don't understand that, like, from my vantage point, the Republican politicians in the state of Oklahoma are about taking rights away. Fast-forward, I move to New York City, um, Muslim mayor here is about giving more rights to people, not leaving anybody behind. But they're really mad about that 'cause I go after the religious right pretty hard, and that really riles them up.
- KSKara Swisher
And where do you-- Do you go back a lot? What happens when you go back? 'Cause there must be people there who agree with you, obviously.
- 4:44 – 10:25
2024 PTSD
- JWJennifer Welch
PTSD, Kara, from 2024. You remember the poll in Iowa that showed Kamala up, and then, you know, we all wake up, and, you know, it's Heartbreak Hotel. We're all devastated, and so I am very adamant that we not listen to a poll at all, that we assume that this is uphill barefoot in the snow the whole way. I assume that they're gonna try to do all kinds of, um, interference, uh, from all, all ways they can, and I, uh, just feel like only we can save us, and the turnout has to be so massive that it's too big to rig and that we send a message to the Supreme Court, to those in Congress, to the oligarchs that we are still in power.
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah. Yeah.
- JWJennifer Welch
We are the guardrail.
- KSKara Swisher
It doesn't feel like it on the ground. Do you-- How often do you go back now? You live in New York now, correct?
- JWJennifer Welch
I live in New York. Um, let's see. The last time I was back there was February, so a while. Oh, no, no, no. I went back in June. I went to an Oklahoma City Thunder game.
- KSKara Swisher
Oh, good. Okay. And, and what, the mood was what? Still pro-Trump still. He's killing it.
- JWJennifer Welch
Well, it's different. It's, it's weird. It's, you know, when you get into a city like Oklahoma City, it's so spread out, and so there's not, like, this mood that you can tap into, if you will. My friends that are progressive, you feel the MAGA policy so much more in a red state. You really feel, because, you know, you have an abortion ban. All of the politicians are picking on all the people that you wanna protect. Um, but They get hopeful, and I always got hopeful when I, when I lived there, that, okay, maybe the worm's gonna turn. But they recently had a, a gubernatorial race with a Trump-backed, uh, candidate in the Republican primary runoff, and then kind of a more moderate Republican. Well, the Trump-backed guy won, so my friends were kind of upset. But the crazy... Remember our school board guy?
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah.
- JWJennifer Welch
Ryan Walters?
- KSKara Swisher
Oh, yeah.
- JWJennifer Welch
He's gone.
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah.
- JWJennifer Welch
And so-
- KSKara Swisher
There's all kind of manner of nonsense around him, right? Or something like that.
- JWJennifer Welch
Yeah. He's, uh, that guy's nuts. Like, every time I would get on social media, Kara, he's in his car, filming from his car, talking about porn and gay sex and trans people, and I'm like-
- KSKara Swisher
What is happening, sir?
- JWJennifer Welch
What's going on here?
- KSKara Swisher
[laughs]
- JWJennifer Welch
Like, why are you talking about this?
- KSKara Swisher
Right. Right.
- JWJennifer Welch
In your car.
- KSKara Swisher
Right.
- JWJennifer Welch
And posting it on the internet.
- KSKara Swisher
Right. Yeah, I, I found that unusual. But he's gone, correct? He's gone.
- JWJennifer Welch
He's gone, yeah.
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah, yeah. So you're still sort of batting down the fucking hatches, essentially. Like, n- no, no one shall pass, that kind of not today fascist, essentially.
- JWJennifer Welch
Yeah, I do not trust these people. I don't trust the electorate after 2024, and I feel like we have to do repu- reputational brand damage to the Republican brand. They're liars. Wealth never trickled down. They treat the military like shit. They always have. Look no further than the, uh, USS Lincoln. Um, all of this notion that they're so fiscally responsible, look at the $40 trillion in debt, what do we have to show for it? This notion that they are pro-life, when every single policy that they undo, all the EPA deregulations, the food deregulations, the vaccine nonsense, leads to deaths. And so I always say the Republican Party is a death cult, and we need to do... Start decades, uh, like they have. They have started decades of propaganda, lying to the public about their brand, and we need to start undoing it. It's gonna take a few political cycles. And so I'm hopeful that you see progressive, progressives winning around the country. I think that's great for the party. Um, and I'm hopeful that we can get a Democratic Party that returns to that of FDR.
- KSKara Swisher
Are you worried about the, the sort of, uh, fighting on the left, essentially? I mean, you-
- JWJennifer Welch
A little
- KSKara Swisher
... you, you, tell me about that.
- 10:25 – 19:23
Trump Renames Lake Ontario
- KSKara Swisher
is messing with maps again. He signed an executive order renaming Lake Ontario Lake America following a breakdown in trade talks between US and Canada. Google Maps has since adopted Lake America for US users, while Canadians can still see Lake Ontario, and users elsewhere see both names. On the other hand, MapQuest has reached the top navigation app in the US after saying it would not change the name of Lake Ontario. Canada has hit back with a giant Lake Ontario Now and Always billboard near the US border. Uh, let's, uh, listen to a clip of, of Trump's thought process, I don't know, what- whatever, uh, while changing the name.
- SPSpeaker
So if you think about it, we have a gulf and we have a lake. Now all we need is an ocean. So maybe we'll have to change the name of the Atlantic and/or the Pacific.
- KSKara Swisher
I mean, I don't know what's wrong with him. Apple is weighing it. The Trump administration said they're gonna change it soon. I'm not... Uh, that's really re- depressing, if Apple does that on the same thing. None of these people have to. So, um, should Canada rename Lake Michigan on their maps? I mean, this is ridiculous and stupid, but thoughts? Thoughts, Jennifer?
- JWJennifer Welch
I mean, part of me thinks that the, the best way to mess with these people is to stoop a little low, and I think it would be hilarious if, like, "Okay, we're changing Lake Michigan to Lake Obama on our side. That's what we're gonna call it." You know? And, and just... Because this is the type of stuff that-
- KSKara Swisher
Lake Epstein.
- JWJennifer Welch
[laughs] Exactly, yeah. But this is so stupid. I, I'm not disappointed in him, because he disappoints me all day, every day. That's just an u- ubiquitous part of my life as an American. Uh, the Google of it all, just like, come on.
- KSKara Swisher
Well, they did Gulf of Mexico to Gulf of America. They did it.
- JWJennifer Welch
I know, and they, they need to stop-
- KSKara Swisher
So did Apple-
- JWJennifer Welch
... because-
- KSKara Swisher
... by the way.
- JWJennifer Welch
I know. And it's these... And you told me this once. We podcasted together several months ago, and it stuck with me. I write about it in my book, this quote, where you said, "These tech guys believe in nothing. If Kamala would've won, they would have their pronouns in their bios and a pride flag." And that to me is like, that nihilism is w- what's feeding all of this.
- KSKara Swisher
What... Is there anything to do? I put out a thing of how to get Google Maps off your phone and to switch your search engine to DuckDuckGo or, or there's a whole... Cos- uh, Ecosia is another one, or Yahoo, whatever. You can switch to Microsoft and Bing and things like that. Um, you do have limited choices in a lot of these things. With mail, you, you know, you do get locked into these systems. But I was trying to show people, you don't have to use Google Maps. You don't have to use Apple Ma- Apple has not changed yet, but it did change the Gulf of America. You know what I mean? They did, they go, the, whatever they called it, the Gulf of... Whatever the fuck that is. Um, and-
- JWJennifer Welch
The Gulf of Dipshits
- KSKara Swisher
... Dipshit, [laughs] right. Um, it's, it's a r- be... What, what do you think is be- like, like you can change stuff, but the fact of the matter is, the fact that they're doubling down at the end of the reign of Nero, like, he's fiddling, Rome is burning, and you're still kissing up to him, shows, like, I'm not sure what it shows because some pushback, like Disney d- did around the FCC, or some pushback all over the place tends to work on some level. I mean, what do you, what do you, what is your message to these, to these people, these tech people?
- JWJennifer Welch
It's like, why, why are you such trad wives to this man? Why are you so submissive? Like, why not stand up for your customers? This guy has a high 20% approval rating. Why not stand up for your customers? If they all lined up together, Zuckerberg and Tim Cook and Bezos, and just said, "Enough. We're done. You're old. You're a, a dementia duck right now, and w- we have-"
- KSKara Swisher
Dementia duck? [laughs]
- JWJennifer Welch
"... we have a cus-" That's what I call him. Instead of lame duck, dementia duck. And they need to... But I, I don't understand it. The only thing I can relate to is the other night I watched one of these Mormon documentaries.
- KSKara Swisher
Do you do that in your free time? [laughs]
- JWJennifer Welch
I do. [laughs] And so there was this guy, he was, of course, the cult leader, and all of these husbands that, that w- like worship this guy, they're the ones who made all the money, and then they were giving this guy, who was just lazy, like, "Here's our wife and here's our daughters." And they were so submissive to this guy, the money, everything. And I thought, "Oh my God, that's really what's happening with these MAGA people, with, with even the oligarchs. Like, they will just do whatever Trump says."
- KSKara Swisher
I believe I have heard that Tim Cook likes, uh, Donald Trump, likes him personally. Like, that's the thing. I've heard it from so many people. I can't believe... I mean, it's interesting 'cause I, I'm pretty... M- I think the Jobs family's horrified. I think they're horrified by these behaviors. Um, I doubt Steve Jobs. Everyone's like, "Oh, he would've done it." I'm like, you know, he wouldn't have. He would, not this, not this level of obse... He wasn't a submissive person, so he, that would've offended him on some level. Um, and, and he did think about customers, and companies like Apple used to think of customers. You're absolutely right. They don't think of customers right now. And I know they're like, you know, you sort of have that Michael Jordan quote, you know, "Republicans and Democrats both buy sneakers." I urge people to shift off of Google Maps. I urge people to shift off of Google Search. It's very easy. It's very hard to get away from the entire system. Uh, not use Gemini, use Claude. Use... You know, but each of them has a problematic issue, and that's, the question is, which do you have more of an issue with? Uh, you know, uh, Cl- uh, Anthropic fought back against the Trump administration. If that's your side, you should do that, you know, and that kinda stuff. And it's just as good search, by the way, FYI.
- JWJennifer Welch
I think that the biggest message the electorate needs to send, and I say this on my podcast all the time, it's to the Supreme Court, it's to Republicans in Congress, um, even people in their own party, if you're a Democrat who haven't fought hard enough. For me, they haven't fought hard enough. And, um, also to the, all of the tech CEOs, all the Fortune 500, um, companies, we are your customer. We-- You have nothing without the American consumer. You have nothing. You don't have all these subsidies, Elon Musk, without our taxes being paid in. And that's a message that we need to send to now this new extension of the federal government, which is the oligarchy. And, and we need to send them as crystal clear of a guardrail that we're sending the other powers that be.
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah, absolutely. If Apple does this, which I s- completely expect them to do, it's really a, a, really a black eye on the legacy of... And you know, 1984, I was just watching that, um, the, uh, the famous commercial. Uh, it's just so against all what Apple was about, which was customers and freedom and, uh, not being pushed down by, by the man, by the, by the au- the autocrats. It's really quite something to see, um, and, and grotesque on many levels and sad to watch. Uh, you know, I, I r- wrote specifically Sundar Pichai, who I liked very much, just his behavior is just... I don't even know this person anymore.
- JWJennifer Welch
Kara, you've been so inside on all of this. I'm, I'm fascinated by the evolution of these people, whether it's the person you just mentioned or Marco Rubio.
- KSKara Swisher
Right.
- JWJennifer Welch
Is it, is it-
- KSKara Swisher
Little Marco, right
- JWJennifer Welch
... Little Marco. [laughs] Is it that when you go against your intuition and you cave to your worst impulses, does it break you? I mean, 'cause I see all of these people as being broken and having a s- almost a billionaire psychosis.
- KSKara Swisher
You know, I think they feel like victims. I, I, I think they f- they can't... They feel like victims. They, they think they're victims. Um, you know, everyone surprises me. Some people surprise me on the upside, some people surprise me on, most of them on the downside. Um, and, and, and, like, there's one person, I'm not gonna say who it is, but I thought would go completely, like, would suck up to MAGA if they need to, and didn't. Like, I'm sort of like, he's, uh, he, he wrote me something to- this morning, and I'm like, "God, he's still Become such a liberal lesbian. It's fascinating. [laughs] You know, so it's really, it depends on the person. Um, but for the most part, it's about money and power, and you never know what's going on inside companies. In, in the case of Sundar Pichai, I suspect he's deeply insecure about his position, despite a very good, um, management of the company. Uh, he's got S- Sergey Brin, the founder, probably breathing down his neck, who's become super MAGA. And so, um, you know, and he also... We- he and I had a lunch once where when they were sort of attacking immigrants, and actually Sergey went to the airport to defend immigrants during that first Trump administration, and I was like, "Hey, Sundar, you're a, you're an immigrant. Mate, you might wanna say something, right?" And he, and he's like, "Well, I'm not from... You know, I'm not a Muslim." [chuckles] And I'm like, "I don't really care." Like, and we had a lunch and I said, "You should say something." Like, and he just couldn't do it. I just... They're, they're mostly feckless is what I find, and then it's easy to give in and say shareholder value and w- the things they could do to us, and we want defen- sweet Defense Department stuff. But let me just say, it's only gonna go on for so long, and then there's gonna be fucking hell to pay. And if you think the Democrats aren't gonna take it out on you, you... I think you're m- sadly mistaken, and 'cause they are and they should. And, uh, and I will bother them to do so. Anyway, we're gonna move... Speaking of leopards ate my face, British far-right commentator Milo
- 19:23 – 21:32
Milo Yiannopoulos Deported
- KSKara Swisher
Yiannopoulos has been deported to the UK after ICE agents arrested him at the New Orleans airport last week. DHS said Milo legally entered the US in 2019, but quote, "Chose to overstay his welcome." This is not uncommon, by the way. Milo first made a name for himself as an editor at Breitbart. He later interned for Marjorie Taylor Greene. He's also worked for Kanye. What a this guy. [chuckles] What a resume. Milo has been a vocal supporter of Trump's immigration crackdown, calling for the deportation of millions very vocally and very, I mean, these ironic, uh, tweets that he had. Meanwhile, his, the person who, who got him, I think is correct, Laura Loomer, is taking full credit, that, that hag, um, for the deportation, saying she reported his immigration status to the ICE and FBI. Uh, between Milo and the Tate brothers who are currently fighting extradition to the UK on rape and human trafficking charges, is America just exporting its far-right influencer problem across the pond? I mean, what, what did y- what did you make of this? Now he's a backer of Marjorie Taylor Greene, who's no longer a backer of, of Trump, who's no long- uh, who's against m- Loomer. Like it's a bunch... It's, it's, it's MAGA on MAGA fighting happening here. But your thoughts on Milo, besides couldn't have happened to a nicer guy?
- JWJennifer Welch
Exactly. I, I mean, I... This kind of stuff, when you see the people who just went all chips in-
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm
- JWJennifer Welch
... on being cruel to everybody else, and the rules that, you know, apply to everybody else don't apply to me.
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm.
- JWJennifer Welch
And then, you know, what they voted for, what they campaigned on happens to them. But an interesting thing about Milo, th- 'cause this has always kind of fascinated me, he's like a non-practicing gay.
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah.
- JWJennifer Welch
He's, he's a gay man, but he says he's, he's no longer having gay sex. So just that right-
- KSKara Swisher
'Cause no one will have it with him, I would assume. Because... [laughs]
- JWJennifer Welch
So b- w- just for that, I'm like, okay.
- KSKara Swisher
And that is an accomplishment. Go ahead.
- JWJennifer Welch
We have a nut. I mean, we're dealing with a nut here, but I, I just don't ever understand this, uh, this cultish worship of Donald Trump. I'll just... I will never understand how people looked at him, just not only physically, but once he opens his mouth longer than three or four minutes and thought, "This is a hill I'm dying on." And it was to the tunes of tens of millions
- 21:32 – 28:32
MAGA on MAGA
- JWJennifer Welch
of people, but I think there's gonna be so much infighting and so much more MAGA on MAGA cannibalism, which I love and find quite delicious. Um, I think, you know, whoever, um, is leaking all of these crazy letters from Natalie Harp, the bunny boiler, you know that... Remember the movie, The Bunny Boiler?
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah, [chuckles] of course I do. Of course. Why not?
- JWJennifer Welch
You know that it's somebody in there that's trying to sabotage the bunny boiler, so I think it's the most toxic work environment.
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm.
- JWJennifer Welch
I think the culture-
- KSKara Swisher
Who is your vote for that, the bunny boiler leaker?
- JWJennifer Welch
Oh, I kind of think m- I'm kinda thinking Stephen Miller.
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah, me too. Yeah.
- JWJennifer Welch
I think it's Stephen Miller.
- KSKara Swisher
People think it's Karoline Leavitt, but I think it's... She doesn't, that's not her.
- JWJennifer Welch
I think it's Miller, because I think he probably thinks, "I need to get her out of the way so I can be the bunny boiler."
- KSKara Swisher
[laughs] Right. So... But you know, he's always gonna look like Stephen Miller.
- JWJennifer Welch
Yeah, I know.
- KSKara Swisher
There's just nothing you can do about that.
- JWJennifer Welch
Nothing. [laughs]
- KSKara Swisher
Trump's really into aesthetics, you know?
- JWJennifer Welch
Yeah.
- KSKara Swisher
And so, mm-hmm, Natalie is much better looking, let's be clear.
- JWJennifer Welch
W- w- I mean, it's not even close.
- KSKara Swisher
Right. Yeah, still, she's fine. Still, when she's not moving, it's fine. Um-
- JWJennifer Welch
Yeah.
- KSKara Swisher
What... So, so what do you imagine's gonna happen here with all these people? I mean, it's, it seems like there's a Marjorie Taylor Greene side and a Laura Loomer side, right? It, that's... And then Megyn Kelly's on the outs, and so is Tucker, so is a bunch of them. Like, and then Mark Levin is somewhere else. Or he's fighting Megyn Kelly. I forget. Anyway.
- JWJennifer Welch
Oh, what does she got, micro penis Mark?
- KSKara Swisher
Yes, that's-
- JWJennifer Welch
Isn't that what she wrote? [laughs]
- KSKara Swisher
She's keeping up with you.
- JWJennifer Welch
Yeah. I sometimes go-
- KSKara Swisher
She really quite... 'Cause you're good at naming people. You go-
- JWJennifer Welch
I was like, "That's pretty good, girl. I, I still think you're a nut, but credit where credit's due." Um, I think what's happening is we always have to be cautious about what this movement is incubating. So the Tea Party incubated MAGA, and MAGA's a million times worse than the Tea Party. And so what is MAGA incubating? And on one side, there's a lot of Christian nationalism. So if you look at Pete Hegseth's pastor, Doug Wilson, complete lunatic, Handmaid's Tale, batshit crazy stuff, right? But then if you look at Tucker and Marjorie and Thomas Massie, I've been calling this for a long time, that they jumped off the Trump train first because they saw what was gonna happen. They, they know that this guy is, you know, completely lost it. And they are starting this America First stuff, and I'm very fearful of it because in flyover states, like in Oklahoma, it's gonna hit hard because it's like, "Okay, we have $40 trillion in debt. What do we have to show for it? Do we have a bunch of great public transportation? Do we have great public schools? Do we have great universities that people can go get a free education? Do we have healthcare?" No. We have all of this debt from these wars and from not taxing these billionaires that we cannot afford enough. And so Mar- Marjorie and Tucker are doing this whole thing like, "MAGA abandoned us And it's so clever because they're gonna keep these triple Trumpers, like the hardcore cultists, "Oh, Trump got crazy, and he abandoned us, but we're still MAGA," because it's such a part of their identity. I mean, so many people that troll me online, they're like, their avatar is the fight, fight, fight assassination photo. And so I think that I'm very fearful of this because they're younger, smarter, more, uh, the machinations that they are gonna have. And the problem with, that I have with Tucker and Marjorie is I think sometimes they say good things 'cause they agree with us most of the time, but I think at the end of the day, there's a lot of xenophobia, a lot of homophobia, a lot of Islamophobia, a lot of antisemitism, antisemitism with all of them.
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah, absolutely. They hate every- they... I, I don't trust them at all. You know, sometimes-
- 28:32 – 38:10
Gwyneth Paltrow's Sam Altman Dinner
- KSKara Swisher
Jennifer, we're back with more news. I know you like dinner parties, and I know you have, like, this incredible interior design sense and have a business. Uh, but Gwyneth Paltrow has postponed a private off-the-record dinner at her Hampton's home with OpenAI CEO Sam Altman after plans leaked and sparked an online backlash. Writers and other creatives criticized the dinner as tone deaf, although it probably would've been exquisite. Uh, given growing, uh, fears about disrupting, AI disrupting the entertainment industry, Paltrow mocked the controversy by posting parody dinner invitations honoring characters like Shrek and Jessica Rabbit, but the real event was postponed with no new date announced. Paltrow's venture fund reportedly invested in OpenAI in 2023. I think that is correct. Did you get an invite, Jennifer?
- JWJennifer Welch
I did not.
- KSKara Swisher
No.
- JWJennifer Welch
I was not invited, no.
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah. What about you?
- JWJennifer Welch
No.
- KSKara Swisher
No. I know her pretty well, but, um, you know, it's interesting, uh, that, that, that, that she gets... Well, she attracts a lot of controversy just by opening her mouth, essentially. Sometimes fairly, sometimes unfairly. What did you think of this? What did you imagine? I thought this was very much her. She's, she's very much into funding. She's sort of like a, you know, you could compare her to a Ben Affleck or a-- who she dated, by the way. You can compare her to a lot of these people that just, you know, just do these deals and just don't... They're just deal makers. She does get unnecessarily attacked. At the same time, completely tone deaf to the moment, to me.
- JWJennifer Welch
Yes, but I th- I see it a little bit more intentional than you do. She had some AI defense contractor on her podcast, and she basically says, "You know, my husband's so progressive. He has all this empathy, and he's an amazing person." And then she's like, "But I'm a moderate. I feel nothing." And, you know, when you're at that level of star, that if you step and wade into politics, and there's plenty of time that that could've been deleted or edited from the episode-
- KSKara Swisher
She didn't take it out
- JWJennifer Welch
... as you and I both know, and it wasn't. And I just don't think that's an accident. And then there was the, um, advertisement she did for the-
- KSKara Swisher
Israeli
- JWJennifer Welch
... Israeli penthouse, and, um Now this, and I just think i- if somebody shows you who they are, believe them. I mean, she's in on, she's in on the oligarchy. But again, it goes back to the, the one thing that connects us all. In order for Gwyneth Paltrow to be Gwyneth Paltrow, I used to love Gwyneth Paltrow. I watched all of her movies. I mean, we're the same age. I grew up and just thought, God, she's gorgeous. She's such an incredible actress. Um, we're, we're all in this kind of thing together, and we are her customer base, whether it be for films, for Goop, or whatever, and I just don't see these tech guys as being even remotely our friends. I mean, I've always thought, um, since I really started looking into this, it was never the immigrants. I always knew it was never the immigrants that were gonna take people's jobs. It's always these AI bots. And I just think there's a... Gwyneth Paltrow has, the, the things she's done is a little bit too in your face, and it makes me think she has no idea. She's so removed from what it's, it's like to be a working-class American, what it's like to, like, pay for daycare and then worry about health insurance, and these things that people have. She just seems completely out of touch.
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah, I, I, see, I think she's very smart. I've spent a lot... This is not a dumb woman. Like, this is a-
- JWJennifer Welch
No, I think she is smart
- KSKara Swisher
... she is, she's, like, deeply smart, actually, which is, I know people will push back against it, but I'm telling you, very clever and very, um, you know, I would say a very good entrepreneur. Goop, whatever you think of Goop, and a lot of people are critical of it, I get all the criticisms, by the way, and a lot of... She's put her, she's put her foot in it lots and lots and lots of times, like, for sure. She certainly attracts that, too, at the same time. Um, but what, what's interesting about it is th- there's a real struggle in Hollywood going on with wanting to embrace and try the AI 'cause, uh, I think it was, what was it, Scorsese? One of them was like, "I'm gonna try some stuff." Ben Affleck sells an AI company to Netflix, right? Um, you know, y- there's a little bit of, n- not misogyny here, it's just the men do it a lot. There's a, a group of people that really wanna embrace AI and don't wanna take responsibility for it. You know, Reese Witherspoon got in trouble for the same thing, which is try, just at least try AI, and I think that was perfect. And they said, "Oh, she's being paid." I'm like, "I don't think she's being paid. I think she really does think this." Um, and, and, and I once had a conversation with her where she's like, "If I, like, if I'm curious or interested in tech, people get mad, so I'm not gonna say anything." And then when she did, she got in trouble, and she was right. I thought that was ridiculous. And what's hard here is that, you know, it's this sort of couple things. Hamptons, out- al fresco dinner party, Gwyneth Paltrow, Sam Altman, [chuckles] and you put them all together, and it is, like, a let them eat cake moment, right?
- JWJennifer Welch
Totally.
- KSKara Swisher
And that's what's missing the, the narrative. Not that she has to necessarily hide her interest in AI, which I think she should have as a business person. She should. Um, but it's more like, can you not, like... I, I'm, I'm curious why she didn't get why this would be a problem, but I don't know.
- JWJennifer Welch
I don't know. I just think when, when I put all of those things together, because I do believe she's smart, I agree with you, I think she's a smart person, it's not accidental. These aren't that many missteps.
- KSKara Swisher
So why do this? Why, why, and let it... I mean, I know the invite got out there, but you'd have to assume it was going to, right, if you were her, presumably.
- JWJennifer Welch
Of course you would, especially Sam Altman. I mean, you know, that, he's such a, um, boogeyman right now. I mean, it's, which, speaking of which, did you ever watch that Tucker Carlson episode where Tucker, like, asked Sam Altman if he killed one of his employees?
- KSKara Swisher
[laughs]
- JWJennifer Welch
Did you see that?
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah, that was not nice. That... [laughs]
- JWJennifer Welch
That was nuts, right?
- KSKara Swisher
That was nuts. He did not kill an employee.
- JWJennifer Welch
[laughs]
- KSKara Swisher
That was, that was crazy.
- JWJennifer Welch
Yeah.
- KSKara Swisher
That was crazy. Honestly, uh, you can attack Sam Altman for the right things. He did not kill people, let me be clear here, so-
- JWJennifer Welch
No, he didn't. It was just a nutty moment-
- 38:10 – 55:35
Karen Attiah Wins Back WaPo Job
- KSKara Swisher
We were talking earlier about having PTSD from the 2024 election and worried about the Dems winning this time. Well, we're gonna talk to someone who just had a big win. Nearly a year after she was fired by The Washington Post over comments she made on social media following the assassination of Charlie Kirk, uh, Karen Attiah has won her fight to get her job back. At the time, The Post said her comments harmed the paper's reputation and integrity, created safety risks for its staff, and violated its social media policy. But last week, an independent arbitrator ruled that The Post did not have sufficient cause to fire Karen. The paper was ordered to reinstate Karen, give her back pay. Meanwhile, Adam O'Neill, the opinion editor who fired Karen, announced in July he was leaving The Post. We're recording this on his final day at the paper. Goodbye, you moron. Anyway, Karen Attiah is joining us now. Welcome, Karen.
- KAKaren Attiah
Thanks, Kara. Super excited to talk to you.
- KSKara Swisher
I know. So, so tell me, you were at The Post 11 years, and we've known each other quite a few years, and my wife worked with you in the section when she was working there. And, and you were the editor who hired Jamal Khashoggi. Um, talk about what-- Talk, right now, what's happening. You've got your job back, but will you be returning? But The Post has not said anything. It said it respects the arbitration process but did not elaborate.
- KAKaren Attiah
So as of today, um, my team is, uh, in touch with The Post. Um, I can say now that I am still fully expecting to be reinstated back to my former title and position and waiting on The Washington Post to sort of comply with that.
- KSKara Swisher
So what does comply mean? Let you in the building?
- KAKaren Attiah
Oh, I mean, I think they'll-- They've let me in the building, all of that. Um, but ultimately, you know, um, I was a columnist. Um, I was a writer at the time of my wrongful dismissal. Um, I'm sure the, the question on everybody's mind, and my mind as well, is will I be allowed to write in The Washington Post's opinion section-
- KSKara Swisher
Right, right
- KAKaren Attiah
... at least.
- KSKara Swisher
Right.
- KAKaren Attiah
So, um, unclear at the moment. [chuckles]
- KSKara Swisher
Unclear, so they may not let you write.
- KAKaren Attiah
We will see.
- KSKara Swisher
We will see.
- KAKaren Attiah
We will see.
- KSKara Swisher
What did you say about, uh, Charlie Kirk that they deemed so provocative they had to terminate you?
- KAKaren Attiah
So actually, what I said about-- It wasn't even about Charlie Kirk. In the aftermath of Charlie Kirk, yes, I was commenting more about the political discourse that was happening, because if people remember, there are so many folks who were talking about-- I mean, they saw the graphic video, and of course, like, his death was horrific and violent. Um, but so many people were going to these empty cliches, in my opinion, about, "This is not who we are. Political violence has no place here," all of that, which I just tend to find, you know, empty, personally irritating. Um, especially considering that that day, and a lot of people have forgotten, there was a school shooting in Colorado literally the same exact time. Um, a couple months earlier was the assassination of, um, Melissa Hortman, the Democratic lawmaker in Minnesota, and her husband, dead due to gun violence and due to a white man who shot and killed them and their dog. So for me personally, I was looking at the Charlie Kirk shooting in the context of-
- KSKara Swisher
Of the reaction
- KAKaren Attiah
... of the reaction, of w- and of what America was showing itself to be, um, and in particularly when it comes to white men who-
- KSKara Swisher
Also-
- KAKaren Attiah
... kill pe- [laughs]
- KSKara Swisher
You're, you're a columnist, right?
- KAKaren Attiah
Yeah.
- KSKara Swisher
And what, what you said was, and you could have actually written this, "Refusing to tear, tear..." Let me read it just so people know. "Refusing to tear my clothes and smear ashes on my face in performative mourning for a white man, uh, that esta- espoused violence is not the same as violence." It, it seemed-- I mean, I, I get people were upset at the moment, obviously, but what-- D- talk a little bit about, um, why you pushed so hard also. Why, why did you push so hard to do this? I re- remember you and I talking, and I thought when the buyouts were happening that maybe you should take them because I thought they were gonna f- target you easily, um, especially with this new guy coming in. And you said, "No, I'm gonna stick there, Kara," and I admire you for that. But-- and then indeed, that's exactly-- They've waited for a moment to get you in some fashion.
- KAKaren Attiah
You know, to this day, I still think about my decision-making process. I, I-- It's still hard to explain why I just felt at a almost spiritual, cellular level that, like, "No, I'm not going to give up"-- Not only-- It was beyond just my job. Like, it also was the fact that, yes, I was the last Black full-time staff columnist left after those buyouts. Um, and I think for me, I just wasn't really interested in [chuckles] making things easy. Did I expect that they were going to fire me with this? No, not at all. But I mean, I think for me, I just Felt like, um, and it's just who I am in, in terms of being a m-martial artist, being... I think it's just a character trait of mine, um, [laughs] that I wasn't going to, to give up so easily. So when I saw the, the termination letter, specifically when I saw that they terminated me because they claimed I was disparaging white men, so they accused me of being racist against white men and violating their social media policy, I was like, "This is absolutely absurd. It's going to be an annoying fight, but there's no way, there's no way I was not gonna fight it." So when I first saw the termination letter, and particularly when they accused me of such egregious, uh, act, they said that I was guilty of gross misconduct, that I was endangering my colleagues, and also that I was disparaging white men based on the, uh, race and gender, I just thought it was so absurd that I couldn't not challenge this, um, no, no matter how long it would take.
- KSKara Swisher
Jennifer?
- JWJennifer Welch
Yeah, a lot of people lost their jobs because of this, and I think it's interesting how the pendulum swung from wh- you know, we're so anti-can-cancel culture, we have to do away with woke 1.1, and then when the other side got power, they, the cancel culture is out of control right now with MAGA. They are canceling everybody and everything, and I think you were a part of that. Do you have any information about other people like you that lost their jobs that are now being vindicated for exercising the First Amendment?
- KAKaren Attiah
For sure. I mean, we've, we're seeing the settlement cases in terms of university professors who are getting, um, reinstated, who are getting huge payouts. I mean, I think part of this is... And, and [laughs] it's interesting. I mean, this is beyond, to me, cancel culture. I've been saying this is MAGA's annihilation culture, right? I mean, using, using whatever sort of weapons they can to come after journalists, academics, even, um, I-I was hearing about someone who was actually arrested over Charlie Kirk comments. I mean, just the disproportionate, uh, response, um, right? And, and I guess for me, particularly because, in my case, The Washington Post or whether it's universities, journalism, academia, the whole point of our institutions is to, we are trained as supposed to sort of take a step back, be objective, collect facts, be above, um, emotion. Even for me in my posts, um, there was a reason why I didn't comment very directly on the breaking news about what was happening with Charlie Kirk. I wasn't speculating about the news or about motives or anything like that because that's my training as a journalist, is to wait until the facts come in. And this is w- the Post academia, they've succumbed to the hysteria at the very least, and at the very worst, being accomplices of MAGA and, and going after people.
- KSKara Swisher
So do you think The Post can return to what it once was? I mean, you brought in Jamal Khashoggi. They-- Jeff very much a backer of that, as you recall, at the, at the time he was murdered. Uh, uh, do you think they can return to it while he's still at the helm? You know I don't think that, but...
- KAKaren Attiah
You know, it's, it's... A lot of people have been asking, I mean, about this question of return. Can The Post go back? Can you... Asking me, "Karen, can you go back to The Post?" Um, and you know, the way that I think about it, and perhaps, again, I'm a, I'm a besieged idealist, but this is what helps keep me going. Right now I'm wearing red. Right now this is the color of the guild, The Washington Post guild that helped, that fought for me to get my job back. I would not have been able to challenge this if it wasn't for the fact that I was a union member, um, filing a grievance. Um, you know, hiring Jamal Khashoggi. I hired Jamal Khashoggi. I'm saying all that to say, like, The Washington Post, yes, we have management that has been making terrible and reckless decisions, but I see The Post as more than just them. Like, I, I recognize that I'm also going back to people who fought for me, um, people who saw that this was wrong.
- KSKara Swisher
Some of the news. They're breaking a lot of really-
- 55:35 – 1:06:28
Wins and Fails
- KSKara Swisher
let's hear some wins and fails.
- JWJennifer Welch
All right, Karen, my win is a judge in Texas that said Uh, no more bans on drag shows. That's BS, and he said, "I have a simple solution for this. If you don't like drags, drag queens, drag shows, simply don't go," which is what I've been saying all along. But to hear a federal judge in Texas say this, I thought that was such a win. It's so simple. I love it.
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm. Excellent.
- JWJennifer Welch
And my fail is a bomb squad was deployed in Washington, D.C., shut down an entire block over a $600 sex toy.
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm. This was near my [laughs] neighborhood. Near my neighborhood.
- JWJennifer Welch
Was that near your neighborhood?
- KSKara Swisher
Yes.
- JWJennifer Welch
So Kara, my question is, was that yours?
- KSKara Swisher
It was. [laughs] It was.
- JWJennifer Welch
[laughs]
- KSKara Swisher
That was so f- we were laughing our asses off, although we were like, "Bomb squad?" Then we're like, "Sex toy." [laughs] Like, it was like o- one of these moments in, of our, in the neighborhood. Uh, everyone was laughing. Yeah. Yeah, it was mine, I have to say. It was... I'm really sorry, D.C. I'm sorry to cause all the problem.
- JWJennifer Welch
It's a lesbian thing. [laughs]
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah, it's a lesbian thing. You know, lesbians don't spend $600 on the toys anyway. Uh, that was, uh, it was not a fail. That was a win in a weird way. Um, all right, I'll go next. Um, you know, I, there's so many kind of nice wins. I, I do-- I'm really loving all this sort of love of Dolly Parton, 'cause it makes you feel like good, uh, good America. Um, but I like that, that, the, the Nashville airport's gonna be named after her. I like that. I know it's a small, stupid... It's like, like a m- it's like not the biggest deal in the world. Someone said they should change the call sign to triple D, um, which would be, and if, and if you're leaving there, if you're leaving there, you're deport- y- you're Departon. You're Departon. You're Departon.
- JWJennifer Welch
[laughs]
- KSKara Swisher
Uh, I just like the whole thing, and you know, Tennessee's a problem, and so is that governor, but you just, uh, it, that was good. But I think more to the point, it sort of spurred me, like someone who followed, I think, in her footsteps really nicely this weekend was Olivia Rodrigo's Daisy Chain Fields Music Festival. She raised $10 million for women and girls issues, and then Melinda Gates, French Gates, came in and doubled the amount for these women's charities to 20 million. Um, I heard it was flawless. It looked fantastically fun. Um, you know, Olivia Rodrigo, speaking of celebrities, does not have to do this. She could just sing and shut up, essentially. She has been outspoken. She's a wonderful artist, by the way, and she really is, um, kinda channeling Dolly Parton in that regard. I really n- liked that Olivia Rodrigo did this 'cause there is a cost to a young woman on the upswing in a career doing this, and Dolly Parton did the same thing with some of her songs about women and girls, uh, early in her career. She took a risk by not selling her song to Elvis. She did all kinds of things. So I really appreciate it. Uh, more to Olivia Rodrigo, but I'm glad Melinda did this and doubled the amount, um, 'cause she has the means. It's always women who are doing this thing, whether it's, uh, MacKenzie Scott or, or, or Laurene Powell Jobs. You know, this is who does these things, and I real- really appreciate it. I just feel like, you know, women have just gotta take over. Like, someone wrote me, like, "Matriarchy has to start, like yesterday," or some such.
- JWJennifer Welch
Totally.
- KSKara Swisher
But it felt really nice in that regard. Uh, so th- those are mine. Jennifer, I'm gonna pass the reins to you for a minute before we wrap up. You said you, you had something you wanted, so all yours.
- JWJennifer Welch
Yes. So you may remember when you were on I've Had It, we play a game called Had It or Hit It.
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah.
- JWJennifer Welch
So I'm gonna list a few things.
- KSKara Swisher
Hit it means fuck, right?
- JWJennifer Welch
Hit it means not necessarily fuck.
- KSKara Swisher
But-
- JWJennifer Welch
Mind in the gutter, Kara.
- KSKara Swisher
Okay, well-
- JWJennifer Welch
It means that y- it means that, yeah, I'll hit that.
- KSKara Swisher
Okay.
- JWJennifer Welch
It doesn't mean you'll fuck it, but it means-
- KSKara Swisher
Okay. All right
- JWJennifer Welch
... that you like it.
Episode duration: 1:06:29
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Transcript of episode 2WfzuwKITb4
