The Right-Wing “Redemption Tour” Is Here… But Is It Real? | Pivot

Kara Swisher 0:00 See? We've had a good discussion about this. We're still getting dragged online, and I get dragged with you.

Scott Galloway 0:04 [laughs]

Kara Swisher 0:05 Thanks, Scott. [upbeat music] Let's get to the news.

Kara Swisher 0:14 Uh, first, Tucker Carlson, one of Trump's biggest supporters over the last few years, now says he regrets helping, uh, get Trump elected. He offered an apology on the latest episode of "The Tucker Carlson Show" while speaking with his, uh, brother Buckley, a former Trump speechwriter. Uh, uh, Tucker and Buckley. Oh, my goodness. [chuckles] Let's, uh, let's, uh, listen.

Speaker 0:33 You wrote speeches for him. I campaigned for him. We, we're implicated in this, for sure.

Scott Galloway 0:37 Yes.

Speaker 0:38 It's not enough to say, "Well, I changed my mind," or like, "Oh, this is bad. I'm out." It's like in s- very small ways, but in real ways, you and me and millions of people like us are the reason this is happening right now.

Scott Galloway 0:52 Yes.

Speaker 0:53 So I do think it's, like, a moment to wrestle with our own consciences. Uh, you know, we'll be tormented by it for a long time. I will be. And, and I want to say I'm sorry for misleading people, and it was not intentional. That's all I'll say.

Kara Swisher 1:10 So Tucker might be tormented. Uh, is he trying to pull a Joe Rogan? Is he going back to Trump to, to... when he needs something? I mean, he's done this before in those emails during that tr- uh, the, the, um, the, the, uh, the trial that Fox had and lost. Uh, he would call them demonic. He was-- He's been here, and I don't think Trump has been anything but explicit about what he is for a very long time. So I'd love to talk about this and the idea of redemption, like, that Rogan was trying to do. And of course, the minute he gave him his psychedelics, he shows right up. And H- and Greene is one. You know, you got a lot of pushback for, uh, for your Ben Shapiro comments this week. This week, I've gotten a l-

Scott Galloway 1:53 Not my comments, my interview.

Kara Swisher 1:54 Your interview, excuse me, but also what you said a-about him and stuff. So these people seem to be moving this way in a way that's... Is it real? Is it not real? How much should we hold people responsible for the things they've said previously? Greene has been terrible. Ben has been many things or not s- This stuff, especially around trans and people of color, h-has been repugnant to me, at least. Um, gay people-

Scott Galloway 2:20 But you would put Ben and Tucker in the same category?

Kara Swisher 2:23 I'd put them, I'd put them all in a different way because I think a lot of what Ben has said previously is really, if I read it... I mean, I can read it to you if you'd like. I want to talk about the bigger idea of giving people space. They are obviously, Tucker is, and Rogan is, and Theo Von is, and Marjorie Taylor Greene are trying, e-even Megyn Kelly, on this sort of redemption tour in a weird way, and I don't... I, I not necessarily believe it. But I want to talk about this issue of when you let people say, "I made a mistake a couple years ago when I said this heinous thing. Forgive me." That, which is what Tucker's asking for here.

Scott Galloway 3:01 Look, uh, this is sort of do as I say, not as I do, because I think the right thing is be careful shaming people for saying they were wrong and coming back into the fold. Uh, uh, you know, because that's how we, that's how we maintain our virtue and indignance in elected, elect J.D. Vance. I think we just need to be a little bit more... When people say, "I fucked up, and this guy is bad," fine, welcome them. I, I, uh, that's the smart thing to do. I have a difficult time resisting calling, you know, telling Marjorie Taylor Greene or a difficult time not telling her to sit down when all of a sudden, you know, when it no longer matters, and h-he doesn't get his support or endorsement to run for Senate, she's all of a sudden decided that he's bad. For me, when I saw those comments from Tucker, I-- it seemed to me to be a... I, I thought, I, I think I absolutely know what's going on here.

Kara Swisher 3:49 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 3:50 He's running for president, Kara.

Kara Swisher 3:52 Yeah. Yeah.

Scott Galloway 3:52 And do you realize what an enormous lane there is for somebody who has very conservative values, an enormous media platform, an enormous army of acolytes that he could weaponize right away and, by the way, is anti-Trump and anti-the war in Iran, which a huge swath of Republicans are now. Who occupies that lane right now? And I, I disagree with Kalish here on this. I think here and now, Tucker Carlson is the most likely GOP nominee for president in 2028. Put him on stage with Rubio and Vance, he's gonna slice and dice them. So, uh, uh, uh, we do, I believe, as Democrats, and I realize I bring some bias to the table, I think he could go six, seven people deep. I think, you know, the, the eighth mo-most likely person to get the nomination, like a Senator Klobuchar or, uh, an Ossoff, they are 10 times better than the person leading in the prediction platforms for the Republican Party, J.D. Vance. We are-- We have a deep bench. As deep as our bench is, theirs is that shallow. J.D. Vance? I mean, he makes... Jesus Christ, he makes Goebbels likable. I mean, the guy, uh, uh, the, the guy is unattractive. They're gonna have a field day taking all of his statements and his gymnastics and his hyp-hypocrisy and his weirdness, whether it's saying that the Pope should be more careful to speaking to notions of, of, of religion. W-W-- I mean, he's said so many ridiculous things that they're gonna have a field day with.

Kara Swisher 5:35 Yes, he's shifted rather a lot. But is, is-

Scott Galloway 5:37 And then they'll connect them, and they haven't even started connecting him to Thiel and that fucking weirdness.

Kara Swisher 5:42 Well, do, do you-- But the shifting-ness of this Tucker thing, for example, I mean, I, uh... Didn't he know, or why did he suddenly know? Or was it just because it's Israel and, um, uh, and this Iran war? What, w-what, what is it? It's like, how do you believe-

Scott Galloway 5:57 It's calculated. It's strategy.

Kara Swisher 5:58 It, in this case, it's calculated, 'cause I think he's already said this privately, and it got out in those legal filings. And so-

Scott Galloway 6:05 He's always, he's always hated Trump. I think anyone-- I think Tucker's a smart guy.

Kara Swisher 6:07 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 6:07 I think anyone who's intelligentAnd whatever you say about Tucker, I, I don't know. He, he's an intelligent, impressive media figure. He is very good at what he does, and he could not stand Trump, and then saw that his audience was going there, and that's the way he was gonna make money, was to be just blindly supportive of Trump. Now he sees an opening. Uh, he's the, he's the leading candidate for president.

Kara Swisher 6:32 How does he escape the heinous things he's said? Like, there... A lot-- Look, Greene has-

Scott Galloway 6:36 He's trying to recast himself. He's apologized, and now he has two years to take on an anti-Trump, uh, Republican. He has two years to basically carve out and cement a lane of, "I am anti-Trump. I'm an anti-Trump conservative that was anti-war," that neither Vance nor Rubio can carve out. He's, he's very well-positioned.

Kara Swisher 7:00 Right. But then how do you... Uh, I, I wanna talk about the bigger picture-

Scott Galloway 7:02 Sure

Kara Swisher 7:03 ... of escaping this, like the Marjorie Taylor Greenes. Uh, and m- and Shapiro was doing that. And, and, uh, y- you know we've gotten some, a lot of fl- I get the ear flak, too. Um-

Scott Galloway 7:14 Bring it on.

Kara Swisher 7:15 Okay, explain it, because you said... Let me just push back at you, if you don't mind.

Scott Galloway 7:19 Sure.

Kara Swisher 7:20 Um, you said you appreciate his moral clarity and reasoning. I- I'm gonna take issue. I think he's very smart, there's no question. I'm gonna take some issue, and I sometimes agree with some of the things he says, not a lot of them, but some of them.

Scott Galloway 7:31 Okay.

Kara Swisher 7:31 Um, he also took a shot at me that was inaccurate and put it in the commercial record.

Scott Galloway 7:36 What did he say? On, on my podcast?

Kara Swisher 7:37 Oh, n- no. You said-- On your podcast, he s-

Scott Galloway 7:39 He took a shot at you?

Kara Swisher 7:41 No, no, no, before, previously.

Scott Galloway 7:42 Oh.

Kara Swisher 7:42 He's, he, he did call to apologize to me about it, which I appreciated. But that said, the moral clarity thing, I mean, I, I, I, I would have trouble... How, how do you escape things like... Let me just tell you a couple of things he said, which sort of is why I found it a little bit disturbing. Um, he called transgenderism a mental disorder. He argues that homosexuality should remain in the DS, um, as a mental illness. He's called women who have abortions baby killers. He's, um, he said a man and a woman do a better job of raising a child than two men or women. That's not even getting into some of the, uh, the comments he makes about Arabs. He said-- This was a long time ago, and he walked back those comments as being dumb when he said Israelis like to build, Arabs like to bomb and live in open sewage, which I didn't think was something one should say. And, uh, any number of men and women things. But... And then Greene herself, let me move on to Greene, you know, is saying a lot of incredible things. That said, she, another person who attacks trans and gay people, uh, says e- every now and then drops what I consider to be very anti-Semitic tropes very quickly. Once she gets past "I don't like war," it, it, she shifts, she, she mix, she, she, she l- she says Jewish when she means Israel quite a bit. And so you kind of see the play there. I, I do wanna... Like, how do you... I, I couldn't, I don't think I could talk to, to Ben Shapiro 'cause of a lot of the things, unless i- in some way. How-- Talk about this, whether our country... And I just talked to Asad Herndon about this, is that most regular people do forgive people, or they say, "Oh, he didn't mean it." And Tucker's trying to do the same thing. Joe Rogan's trying to do the same thing. How do you-

Scott Galloway 9:23 Gavin Newsom's trying to do the same thing.

Kara Swisher 9:24 Gavin Newsom's trying to do... Yes, he's shifting the other way, which I've, I, I also have written him and said-

Scott Galloway 9:29 Mm-hmm

Kara Swisher 9:29 ... "I find this..." Like, "What are you doing here?" Um, a- and, and I, uh, we can disagree with each other, but how, how easy it i- is it to let people back in, and what should be the, um... I guess, what should be the criteria? I guess there'll be different criteria for each person.

Scott Galloway 9:47 Look, I, I... At, at a very spiritual level, the, the question around letting people back in is forgiveness is divine, and, you know, you wanna err on the side of forgiveness. Having said that, I think the more salient question is, who do you decide to platform or not? So I've had a lot of people from, quote-unquote, the manosphere contact me directly and say, "You have misrepresented me. You are part of the manosphere, but you're manosphere light. We could have a productive conversation. I'm coming on." And I'm like, "To be blunt, I think what you have said is so unproductive and so damaging for young men that I don't wanna give you any oxygen. I don't even wanna get in your face. I don't wanna have an argument. I don't..." I don't use... The most famous misogynist, I don't use his name because I don't wanna give them oxygen. So the question is-

Kara Swisher 10:32 Which one?

Scott Galloway 10:32 ... do you give a guy like Ben Shapiro-

Kara Swisher 10:34 Which one is it? Which one is it? Go ahead.

Scott Galloway 10:35 Well, you can probably guess.

Kara Swisher 10:36 Tate.

Scott Galloway 10:37 Anyways-

Kara Swisher 10:37 Andrew Tate.

Scott Galloway 10:38 Well, someone who's been, uh, jailed for accusations of, of trafficking women.

Kara Swisher 10:43 Andrew Ta- I will use his name.

Scott Galloway 10:44 I mean, okay. So-

Kara Swisher 10:46 Yeah

Scott Galloway 10:46 ... uh, but I don't... He likes it. Every time his name is used, the algorithms elevate his conte- content-

Kara Swisher 10:51 Yep

Scott Galloway 10:52 ... in other platforms.

Kara Swisher 10:53 Yeah, he's number one on Substack right now.

Scott Galloway 10:54 And the reality is, if you talk to young men, most young men [chuckles] have written him off a long time ago. But I think-

Kara Swisher 11:00 Yeah, that is true

Scott Galloway 11:00 ... because we, he's such an easy punching bag, we mention his name, and the algorithms pick it up and elevate his content. Anyways, and a lot of young people will be drawn, especially young men, to people who are controversial figures. So my feeling is there's certain people you just choke off their oxygen supply. So the question is, with someone like Ben, he has said, in my opinion, wrong, even maybe vile things. I said to him, I said in my post comments after my interview with him, "The thing that really bothers me about Ben is that he has courageously called out these far-right people and said, 'We're, we can't engage in this conspiracy theory, this hate mongering.'" He said that to that group. I thought that was fairly courageous of him to call out those people. My issue, or one of my issues with Ben, is that when they were-- These people wereConspiracy theorists accusing world leaders' first ladies of having penises or accusing people of, you know, just very heinous things, some of the transgender stuff. He sort of was a bit of an apologist, but then when they went against Israel, that was the, the red line for him. And so I'm like, "Okay, y- y- basically Ben has decided to excommunicate and call out people on the far right, not when they're homophobes or bigots, but when they become anti-Semitic." And I said that. I think I, I disagree with a lot of what Ben says. This is Ben Shapiro. He grew up in a lower middle-class home. He's so fucking smart, he got to Harvard. He's built a great company. He is willing to acknowledge points. I love just watching him debate to just take notes on how I make my progressive viewpoints, how I articulate my progressive viewpoints in a more compelling way, and also I am done with this notion of this apostate culture on the left, where if I don't choose the right words or have the right people on my podcast, people act as if I've betrayed them. Uh, there are-- there is a line. I will never have Candace Owens [chuckles] on my podcast. I will never have Nick Fuentes on my podcast. But I think, I think Ben brings a really i- intellectual, adept, clever arguments and viewpoints to issues-

Kara Swisher 13:13 [chuckles]

Scott Galloway 13:13 ... I don't agree with him on, and I think it's a healthy dialogue.

Kara Swisher 13:15 I, I'm not sure they're saying you shouldn't have him on. I think it was the moral clarity thing I think was what, which is-

Scott Galloway 13:21 Okay, I chose, okay, I chose the wrong words.

Kara Swisher 13:23 I get it. I get it, Scott.

Scott Galloway 13:24 He, he doesn't back down.

Kara Swisher 13:25 Right.

Scott Galloway 13:25 He has a view, and then he doesn't back down.

Kara Swisher 13:27 Right.

Scott Galloway 13:27 He's not trying to go where the wind goes or, or what gets him most, the most likes on Instagram. I respect that. I think he genuinely believes what he believes. He tries to provide evidence and argument. Um, I'm, I'm... I said I'm a fan of Ben Shapiro. I'm a fan. You have to separate the person from the politics. I think he is an impressive young man who has, who has demonstrated incredible intellect and really made an incredibly successful media company. And this notion that, uh, I believe when we all start barking up the same tree, we get really fucking stupid, and I think the people on the left and the right have a tendency to all wanna find the right words, especially people on the left, and get angry at anybody that wants to have a discourse, and if-

Kara Swisher 14:12 Oh, come on, Scott. The right has gotten so censorious. Like, they're the ones who are actually doing the censoring. There is a purity test on the right right now around Trump, around everything else, and pushing, these people pushing back is hard, I have to say, um, despite their histories.

Scott Galloway 14:28 That's fair. I, I, I find that the far right or the right, not the far right, I find the right just writes me and you off. They just say we're libtards.

Kara Swisher 14:35 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 14:36 The most hate I get is from progressives who are like, "We thought we, you could tru- when you said-"

Kara Swisher 14:41 Well, 'cause they thought you were-

Scott Galloway 14:41 "... you, when you said Biden was too old, you don't understand the assignment. We thought we could trust you."

Kara Swisher 14:46 Mm-hmm. Right.

Scott Galloway 14:46 Or, oh, wait, do, do you remember the hate I got on a podcast when I said that transgender women should not be allowed to compete in women's sports?

Kara Swisher 14:53 Yes, I do.

Scott Galloway 14:53 Do you remember that one?

Kara Swisher 14:54 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 14:54 I mean, it's, "Okay, you are, you, you, you are with us 100% or you're against us."

Kara Swisher 15:00 Well, that's different than having a debate over a very complex issue and, and saying transgenderism is a mental disorder, or that homosexuality is-

Scott Galloway 15:09 Well, I didn't say that.

Kara Swisher 15:10 No, he did.

Scott Galloway 15:10 And, and Ben has said it.

Kara Swisher 15:11 Shapiro did.

Scott Galloway 15:11 Okay.

Kara Swisher 15:12 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 15:12 So should we not ever talk to Ben because he said that?

Kara Swisher 15:15 I, I think we, uh-

Scott Galloway 15:16 Should we not ask him to defend his comments?

Kara Swisher 15:17 I, I, I think it's, that's what I'm asking you. It's a really difficult thing. I've thought about having Marjorie Taylor Greene on, and then I read a lot. I'm like, "Oh, I'm gonna s- like, just 'cause I like what she's saying..." I, I don't trust any of these people. I'll be honest.

Scott Galloway 15:31 Right.

Kara Swisher 15:31 I just don't.

Scott Galloway 15:32 Right.

Kara Swisher 15:32 And I just think they see the wind, and I think they have legitimate problems with Trump. I do think Greene, for example, is an America Firster, and she's always been. I think she's very committed to the Epstein issues, and I think she is. I don't, I don't, I-

Scott Galloway 15:45 Mm-hmm.

Kara Swisher 15:45 I think she's sincere in this, in that, and you can hear it goes way back, and I go, and I go way back to read her. But then when it's accompanied by this other stuff, how do you se- I think it's gonna be a very hard road back for everybody. And-

Scott Galloway 15:58 But, but let me just create a-

Kara Swisher 15:59 Sure.

Scott Galloway 16:00 Let me just call out a distinction.

Kara Swisher 16:01 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 16:01 I struggle with the thing, the same thing you're struggling with. You have more license, I think, 'cause you're a journalist, and so y- getting Marjorie Taylor Greene on, on with Kara Swisher and talking to her and put, and, and you're, you're a great interviewer. You're a much better interviewer than me, knowing how to forcefully push back. You are, you are, you are great at that. But I'll give you an example. I don't think Ben would ever stalk people who came to testify, uh, in front of Congress who are Parkland shooter survivors and follow them for four blocks-

Kara Swisher 16:29 I... Yes, that was-

Scott Galloway 16:29 ... accusing them of lying and being crisis actors. I don't see Ben Shapiro ever doing something like that. At the end of the day, this is your call, and people can decide that, all right, if you're platforming-

Kara Swisher 16:40 That's not what I'm saying.

Scott Galloway 16:42 I'm sorry.

Kara Swisher 16:42 I'm talking about more as our country. Like, when do we let it go? Like, that's gonna be... Uh, the reason I'm asking is I just did this incredible interview with Astead. It's like, when does it, what, uh, there, is there any-

Scott Galloway 16:52 So what's the statute of limitations on when do we let people have a back in?

Kara Swisher 16:54 When do, when does, do all of us have to just leave Trump behind us and all the bad... And I'm not, I blame him, but it, I blame ourselves because it's really hard.

Scott Galloway 17:05 Well-

Kara Swisher 17:05 And it's, it, and it's, and, and it, it, the jumping, like, listen, I got, like, attacked for saying-

Scott Galloway 17:09 Mm-hmm

Kara Swisher 17:10 ... um, Reese Witherspoon was just saying try AI.

Scott Galloway 17:13 That was weird. That was just stupid.

Kara Swisher 17:14 It was weird, but it was also, but I also get it, like, the rage about-

Scott Galloway 17:18 Mm-hmm

Kara Swisher 17:18 ... it's where it's coming-

Scott Galloway 17:19 That's the machine looking for soft tissue to pretend they're virtuous. That's stupid.

Kara Swisher 17:23 Oh.

Scott Galloway 17:23 So what?

Kara Swisher 17:23 Yeah, but, you know, the right virtue signal. You virtue signal. We all do it.

Scott Galloway 17:26 No, that's everybody.

Kara Swisher 17:26 Yes.

Scott Galloway 17:26 Everybody who's angry about AI.

Kara Swisher 17:28 Yes.

Scott Galloway 17:29 There's a coup- there's, there's, there's different... This is complex, right?

Kara Swisher 17:31 I get it.

Scott Galloway 17:32 But, but-

Kara Swisher 17:32 That's all I'm saying, is I get where it's coming from. I get where it's coming from, and so I discount it. And sometimes, you know, I was talking to Claire this morning about something that Skull was-

Scott Galloway 17:40 Mm-hmm

Kara Swisher 17:41 ... was being mad about his socks or something like that, and I said to her, it was, we were driving to school, and she goes, "Oh, yeah, he was really mad about the socks." I said, "You know, he wasn't mad about the socks. He was mad 'cause I've been away for a few days, and he wanted me to drive him to school. I'm driving you." And I said, "Sometimes people are mad about things that have nothing to do with-"

Scott Galloway 17:58 It's deep for a six-year-old.

Kara Swisher 17:59 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 17:59 I couldn't have that conversation with my 18-year-old.

Kara Swisher 18:01 [laughs] And it was an interesting conversation, so I can't-

Scott Galloway 18:04 Freudian Freud or Jungian resentment?

Kara Swisher 18:06 [laughs] No. No. I just use--Claire is so smart, it's crazy

Scott Galloway 18:10 Let's watch Frozen

Kara Swisher 18:11 [laughs] Let's watch Frozen, Frozen 2. But it's just-- I think we should be talking as much as, like, what is-- what do we have to do to get back to some level of disagreement? And I do think I, I-- there's no question that the Greenes, the Shapiros, the Owens, the Meg-uh, Megyn Kelly, uh, and definitely people on the left too, who I don't listen to as much, which is interesting, have tried to, like, poke at us and make us really dislike each other in a way that I think has been very dangerous. And at some point, there has to be some level of reckoning over that, because someti-

Scott Galloway 18:48 That's the right word

Kara Swisher 18:48 ... you know, it's a reckoning. And what is that reckoning, is really important, I think.

Scott Galloway 18:52 Well, three points. There's some nuance here. I would not group all of those people into the same group. I think there's different levels of mendaciousness and disingenuous and saying hateful things for money. Um, the right word-- So the first is, um, what I'll call camera culture or forgiveness. I think in a culture where everyone's following each other around, where everyone's tweets live forever, if we don't expand the aperture of forgiveness, we're just all gonna fucking hate each other. I say stupid shit all the time. I, I'm putting out fourteen fucking hours a week of content. I'm shooting from the hip. I-i-if an eighteen-year-old shows up to a, a, a protest on campus and says, "From the river to the sea," not understanding how some people perceive that, you know, I don't wanna kick him out of school. I don't wanna ruin his career. I don't wanna, I don't wanna contact JPMorgan, which some people wanna do, and get-- make sure he doesn't-- his summer internship is rescinded. We have to get to a level of more forgiveness in a culture where there's incentive to find-- make a cartoon of people's comments and press on the soft tissue and, and be outraged behind our computers. I, I-- And we have gone so far from that. We need-- I'm trying to do that. I'm trying not to call out people for clicks when I see an opportunity. I'm trying to take the temperature down. The word you bring up, though, and it's different, is reckoning, and that is, I do not think this nation heals until there is some form of reckoning. Marjorie Taylor Greene and Nancy Pelosi should disgorge their profits from insider trading. The people who were in charge or supervisors of ICE in Minneapolis, where an ICU nurse somehow ended up with ten bullets in his person, those people should be, should be hauled in front of committees and punished. I'm not saying maybe they go to jail. When, when there are people in geopolitical advantage, they should disgorge those profits and be put on trial. There needs to be a reckoning here. At the same time, with respect to what people say or their views or being incendiary or playing into a far-left or a far-right media ecosystem that then elevates it online, we need to massively increase the aperture around forgiveness.

Kara Swisher 21:03 Mm-hmm. Yep. I think-- No, that's well said. See? We've had a good discussion about this. We're still getting dragged online, and I get it.

Scott Galloway 21:10 [laughs]

Kara Swisher 21:11 Thanks, Scott.

Scott Galloway 21:11 I think you should do the interview, and I would tune in for the interview with Marjorie Taylor Greene. I would love to see what you said and how you, how you approach it. I think that would be-

Kara Swisher 21:18 I-- It's, it's something I-

Scott Galloway 21:19 One of the reasons I would not interview MTG is I don't feel like I have the skills to handle that interview.

Kara Swisher 21:25 Well, yeah, it's hard because it's part of me, I'm like, "Go girl," and part of me is like, "Really? Some of the heinous things you've done, shall I..." There's a poi-- It's, it's a difficult thing because, you know, I, I just, I'm like, "You very clearly have issues with Jewish people." [chuckles] Like, it's, uh, you know, you'd have to have an honest conversat- She'd have to be open to an honest conversation instead of just clap, clap, clap, we forgive you.

Scott Galloway 21:45 Can I give you, can I give you a couple real-world examples? I was supposed to go on Bill Maher-

Kara Swisher 21:49 Mm-hmm

Scott Galloway 21:49 ... and I found out that Steve Bannon was one of the panelists.

Kara Swisher 21:52 You did. You removed yourself.

Scott Galloway 21:54 And I said, "Uh, this guy made what looked like to me a Nazi salute." And a lot of people say, "No, he didn't." If I had more skills, I could handle that conversation. I don't have that skills, those skills. I, I, as a nod to my mother, I've-- I feel like I would have to fucking say something to him on live TV. I do not wanna w-- hijack Bill Maher's show, and I don't know how to thread that needle, so I backed out. I was invited to go on Steve Bartlett's podcast tomorrow.

Kara Swisher 22:23 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 22:23 I was supposed to be on with Eric Schmidt on a discussion on AI. I have a lot of respect for the brain of Eric Schmidt. I, I would learn a lot. I'm like, "I'm in." And they're like, "Eric can't do it. Can you come on in, in this panel with Cenk or Shank?" I'm like, every time I see that guy, he's yelling. I don't wanna get into a yelling match with anybody.

Kara Swisher 22:40 Yeah, you went on that Piers when I told you not to.

Scott Galloway 22:43 Well, I didn't know he was gonna, he was gonna ambush me with some far-right weirdo.

Kara Swisher 22:48 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 22:48 So I-- And by the way-

Kara Swisher 22:49 That's, that's their show

Scott Galloway 22:50 ... I ca- I, I, I like Pierce.

Kara Swisher 22:52 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 22:52 And he's been very generous to me. And I called the producer, and I said, "Never again. Don't call me. You didn't warn me that you were gonna bring on some right-wing weirdo to try and say, to call me desperate and un-American. I don't need that shit. And it wasn't a civil conversation. It was you just trying to get the YouTube algorithm to have a call-out moment such that you'd get another fucking forty dollars from AdSense. I'm not gonna engage in that." At the same time, I'm not gonna get on with, I think that guy is far left, who every time I see him is yelling. I'm like, that, that-- What good does that do me? [laughs] What, what good does that do the ecosystem or any sense of civil discourse that this nation needs to move toward?

Kara Swisher 23:32 Yeah. Yeah. Well, we'll see how it goes. It'll be interesting anyway.

Scott Galloway 23:35 God, I'm so indignant right now.

Kara Swisher 23:36 What? You are?

Scott Galloway 23:37 I'm so indignant right now.

Kara Swisher 23:38 Yeah, we'll stop. [laughs]

Scott Galloway 23:38 What do you call, what do you call, what do you call a Black man on the moon?

Kara Swisher 23:42 Oh, no, don't. Please don't. You're g- I'm gonna have to fire you soon. What?

Scott Galloway 23:47 An astronaut, you fucking racist.

Kara Swisher 23:48 Oh, I love it. That guy is amazing. He's amazing.

Scott Galloway 23:51 With his dog? That guy's amazing.

Kara Swisher 23:53 He's amazing. He's amazing. Like, ugh, all right.

Scott Galloway 23:55 They make a hundred and fifty thousand dollars a year.

Kara Swisher 23:57 Who was the, who was it? Whi- Which one of them said, "I wouldn't fly with a..." Who was the person who said, "I wouldn't fly with a Black pilot"?

Scott Galloway 24:02 It was Charlie Kirk.

Kara Swisher 24:03 It was Kirk. Yeah, that one.

Scott Galloway 24:03 He was making a point around DEI that he thinks there's-

Kara Swisher 24:06 Oh, God

Scott Galloway 24:06 ... and by the way-

Kara Swisher 24:07 Elon's done it, too. Elon's-

Scott Galloway 24:08 ... just so you know how airlines-

Kara Swisher 24:09 See, I'm not forgiving that

Scott Galloway 24:10 ... how airlines handle DEI, they do widen the aperture in terms of who makes it into the applicant pool. ButAny pilot, female, male, Black, white, Latino, has to pass the exact same-

Kara Swisher 24:20 I know

Scott Galloway 24:21 ... test at the same level.

Kara Swisher 24:22 It's ridiculous. It's fucking ridiculous. So that, those things I'm sorry, I'm not gonna be forgiving. Anyway, that pi- that pilot is amazing. Um, all right, we're moving on. Speaking of-

Scott Galloway 24:30 Sorry.

Kara Swisher 24:30 Um, speaking of-

Scott Galloway 24:30 I didn't mean to sound defensive.

Kara Swisher 24:32 Fair, but that's okay.

Scott Galloway 24:32 I'm getting attacked a lot-

Kara Swisher 24:33 No, it's a good-

Scott Galloway 24:33 ... in the last 24 hours.

Kara Swisher 24:34 I know, but you know what? It's good to talk about 'cause everyone wants me to dump you. Um, it's a good-

Scott Galloway 24:37 Everyone wants you to dump me.

Kara Swisher 24:40 [laughs] I'm not, we're not doing it.

Scott Galloway 24:40 Everyone wants you to dump me.

Kara Swisher 24:42 We're going... Uh, I'm just telling you today, today, today.

Scott Galloway 24:44 Uh-huh.

Kara Swisher 24:45 I'm not... Scott, did I-

Scott Galloway 24:46 Uh-huh

Kara Swisher 24:46 ... have an effective and substantive conversation about the issue-

Scott Galloway 24:50 Uh-huh

Kara Swisher 24:50 ... and we talked about it?

Scott Galloway 24:50 Everyone wants you [laughs] to-

Kara Swisher 24:52 Just... All right, I'm moving on. Speaking of

Kara Swisher 24:54 people we may have to forgive, Apple will have a new CEO for the first time in 15 years come September. Tim Cook is stepping down as CEO and will move into a new role as, as Apple's executive chairman. Trump praised Tr- uh, Cook in a post on Truth Social, also saying, quote, "I was very impressed with myself to have the head of Apple calling to kiss my ass," unquote. Unfortunately, this was accurate. Uh, John Ternus, the head of Apple's hardware engineering, will succeed Cook, first product person running the company in a while. He's been with the company for 25 years, overseeing the engineering of the iPhone, iPad, and Mac. Uh, talk about the legacy, and you, you will have to include sort of being tainted by this relationship with Trump, including recently the statue and the Melania thing. And Ternus is joining Apple as the company is fighting for a space in the AI race and product innovation. Um, talk a little bit about predictions for the Ternus era and looking back at the Cook era. May I start?

Scott Galloway 25:49 Of course.

Kara Swisher 25:49 I have to say, he's 10X the amount, the value of the company. When, when Steve gave him the reins and then died, everyone thought it was curtains for the company, and that has not been the case. He has been innovative with AirPods and Watch and not, just not as sexy as Sc- as Steve Jobs has been or s- as visionary. So I think he's been a great, um, a, a great leader for them. At, that said, he was tarnished by some China st- uh, all the China manufacturing stuff, for sure, um, because he's a logistics guy. He, he was maybe too much of an automaton on that, those human rights issues. And then the President Trump stuff is not a great look, but I think he was taking one for the team, would be my guess in that regard. Uh, as a person, I really like him. He's, he's been, he's a really, um, calm person. I think he could've been slightly more outspoken about gay issues [laughs] , but that's his choice. Again, I don't, I don't force gay people to have to talk about it. But he's a good, um, role model. Probably could've talked a little bit more about it, that's my only... But that's, again, his choice. Um, and I get why people don't want to. So your thoughts?

Scott Galloway 26:55 I think pe- people's careers are, you know, the second in the blink of a, the, of the corporate world and the universe, that second, 35 millimeters, right? It, it, no one gets all 35 millimeters perfect, and Tim Cook's running at 34 and a half. So to not... This is his legacy. Tim Cook is the most successful successor in corporate history. He-- Uh, talk about a guy that was set up to fail by virtue of the idolatry of the person he was taking over for. There were immediately second-guessing Tim Cook.

Kara Swisher 27:26 And the record. His record [laughs] was pretty amazing.

Scott Galloway 27:29 Well-

Kara Swisher 27:29 The record itself, not just idolatry.

Scott Galloway 27:31 Yeah, it's like, okay, who inherits Jesus's man-

Kara Swisher 27:34 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 27:34 Steve Jobs was the new Jesus because we had shifted from idolizing our athletes and our government officials to the idolatry of innovators, as identified and marked by Steve Jobs, and then who was taken from us early, like Jesus. I mean, it was just, he was, he has become a mythical godlike figure.

Kara Swisher 27:53 He certainly has.

Scott Galloway 27:53 So any guy [laughs] taking, you wanna talk about the biggest shoes to fill in history, and what did Tim Cook do? He took the stock up tenfold. Operationally, he built the most, probably the most robust, impressive supply chain in history. He figured out a way in a foreign nation to take advantage of the collision between advanced manufacturing and low wages and somehow get 2,000 parts to one place or different places for assembly and build a supercomputer for $400 that if you tried to build it anywhere else would cost $4,000. He figured it out. He also, uh, created, and people say he wasn't a new product guy. My favorite technology in history, in history-

Kara Swisher 28:40 Mm-hmm

Scott Galloway 28:40 ... these things.

Kara Swisher 28:42 The AirPods. You love your AirPods.

Scott Galloway 28:43 And AirPods, if they were their own business, would be a Fortune 50 company.

Kara Swisher 28:48 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 28:48 And it's, I think of it, it's the most successful piece of jewelry in history and the highest margin. In addition, what he decided to do was to say, "Okay, I'm not gonna launch new products. I'm gonna take existing products and applications and take a phone and evolve it to a supercomputer where you have payments, where you have music."

Kara Swisher 29:08 So an ecosystem is what you're talking about, creating an ecos-

Scott Galloway 29:11 But he, he took the iPhone from a phone-

Kara Swisher 29:14 Mm-hmm

Scott Galloway 29:14 ... to a supercomputer in your pocket that was media, transactions-

Kara Swisher 29:18 Yeah, ecosystem

Scott Galloway 29:19 ... and, and it became, the iPhone pulled off the impossible, and that is if you want really high margins like Ferrari, it's a niche with limited volumes. If you want super high volumes like a Toyota, you have to price it to get low margins. The iPhone is the only product in history that's managed to get the production volume of a Toyota with the margins of a Ferrari. The iPhone has created more gross margin dollars than any product in history. Arguably speaking, the iPhone is the most successful product in history. There's been nothing like it. He did it with a lot of grace. There wasn't anyone shit posting or leaving or filing lawsuits, and if you wanna talk about Apple's ascent past, say, Samsung or AndroidGo buy a phone, an Android phone. You're, you're talking to a guy with a name-

Kara Swisher 30:08 Yeah

Scott Galloway 30:08 ... tag named Roy who's living with his parents in a-

Kara Swisher 30:10 Yeah

Scott Galloway 30:10 ... bad place with bad carpeting. And then you walk-

Kara Swisher 30:13 They're still not great, I'll tell you that. There's, there's some beautiful form-

Scott Galloway 30:16 They're still awful.

Kara Swisher 30:17 There's, there's some beautiful form factors that I like. I wish there was more-

Scott Galloway 30:20 No, I mean the retail, the distribution-

Kara Swisher 30:21 Right

Scott Galloway 30:21 ... for Android.

Kara Swisher 30:22 Right. Got it, yeah.

Scott Galloway 30:23 You go into an Apple store.

Kara Swisher 30:25 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 30:25 If they opened a coffee store, it'd probably be... If they opened a coffee counter in the Apple store, it'd probably be the highest grossing retail-

Kara Swisher 30:31 Yeah, I guess

Scott Galloway 30:31 ... in the world. And by the way, it became the highest grossing per square foot retail, besting Tiffany in the early aughts.

Kara Swisher 30:38 Let me ask you his negatives. What would you say? I would definitely think the, the controversies around China certainly, but that they seem in the rearview mirror. What about the Trump relationship? I mean-

Scott Galloway 30:48 The China one, uh, look, it, he, he had to take a huge risk on a company that we had geopolitical tensions with. He couldn't look into a crystal ball, and quite frankly, it looks as if we've, it looks as if we've survived it. And I would argue, I would argue that China and the US have a vested interest in figuring out a way to get along because Apple is so important to China, and China is so important to this US company called Apple. I think cross-commerce, I forget the German word for it, is firms that trade to trade with each other are just less likely to go to war with each other. So I, I, I'm a huge fan of what he has pulled off in China. The Trump stuff, we were very vocal about it. It pissed me off. I think of Tim Cook. There are a few people who have benefited more from the American system and civil rights and gay rights and rule of law and systemic laws around business, and a lack of favoritism and a lack of tariffs than Tim Cook, and yet he... You're right. He played the game. His priority was shareholders, so he was strategic and kissed the guy's ass. I get it. It would've been nice if he had been a little bit more forceful and pushed back, but the reality is neither did the other 499 S&P 500 CEOs. So quite frankly-

Kara Swisher 31:58 Well-

Scott Galloway 31:58 ... I think he gets a hall pass

Kara Swisher 31:59 ... you don't see, you don't see N- Nadella there. You don't see like-

Scott Galloway 32:03 Nadella went to the meeting.

Kara Swisher 32:05 He, he went to the meeting-

Scott Galloway 32:06 All the CEOs

Kara Swisher 32:06 ... but I'm talking about the like mo- when he went-

Scott Galloway 32:08 He didn't go to the Melania premiere.

Kara Swisher 32:09 He didn't, and he didn't-

Scott Galloway 32:11 Yeah, okay

Kara Swisher 32:11 ... do the bring him a present, and just, it was... I thought it was tainting of his long, very decent tenure, and I don't think it... I think, I know, I have a feeling I know why he did it. He's like, "It had to be done, essentially. I have to kiss up to him." Uh, but then of course, Trump returned the favor by saying, "He kissed my ass," which [chuckles] is just like typical of Trump.

Scott Galloway 32:28 So this is the question I would ask.

Kara Swisher 32:30 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 32:31 Of all the CEOs-

Kara Swisher 32:32 Mm-hmm

Scott Galloway 32:32 ... on a balanced scorecard of having a good team, fostering leadership, of, of showing grace-

Kara Swisher 32:38 Cook

Scott Galloway 32:39 ... not sh- posting other people. Who scores-

Kara Swisher 32:41 Cook

Scott Galloway 32:41 ... higher than Tim Cook in the history of business?

Kara Swisher 32:43 Cook or, or Nadella. I would say Cook or N-- I think Nadella really pulled that company together.

Scott Galloway 32:47 Okay. So, so we got a 99 point-

Kara Swisher 32:48 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 32:48 He got 1590 on the SAT. He did, he got one question wrong.

Kara Swisher 32:52 It, it-

Scott Galloway 32:52 I mean-

Kara Swisher 32:52 Okay. I got it. I'm just-

Scott Galloway 32:53 This guy-

Kara Swisher 32:54 ... asking the question. I would agree with you, but-

Scott Galloway 32:56 This guy is a first ballot Hall of Fame- [chuckles]

Kara Swisher 33:00 100%

Scott Galloway 33:01 ... corporate and American citizen.

Kara Swisher 33:02 100%.

Scott Galloway 33:03 And-

Kara Swisher 33:03 So-

Scott Galloway 33:04 ... when, when people leave the stage, everyone should just be-

Kara Swisher 33:07 He's also leaving at the right time, by the way.

Scott Galloway 33:08 Yeah, he's stepping down.

Kara Swisher 33:10 He's stepping down.

Scott Galloway 33:10 He's not clinging to power like an African dictator.

Kara Swisher 33:12 No.

Scott Galloway 33:12 I'm not gonna hate crime.

Kara Swisher 33:12 Right. No. So, um, Turness. W- very quickly, predictions for the Turness era?

Scott Galloway 33:18 [sighs] Again, talking about-

Kara Swisher 33:20 They had a couple of good people

Scott Galloway 33:20 ... big shoes to fall. The, the only, um... You know him better than I do. The only thing-

Kara Swisher 33:23 I don't know him

Scott Galloway 33:24 ... I find fascinating about this guy is that he tinkers with like go-karts and he's a hardware guy. So it says more about the board. They said, "We're about hardware, we're not about services, and this is about trying to innovate about products." You know him better than I do.

Kara Swisher 33:37 I don't know him w- I, I've met him a couple. He wasn't, he didn't stick out compared to some of the others there that were in the contention, but I do think he's... Uh, having a product person is really important 'cause they've gotta really evolve the iPhone in ways and, and they still have to get some glasses thing going. I know you're against it, but there's some lighter glasses thing that has to get going. I think they haven't been great in the home. They've been okay. Um, and so there's a lot of... And, and then of course, how, how AI is integrated into all these products is gonna be within, with privacy and safety, especially given the rage about AI. Um, I know you all think AI is not gonna happen, but it's gonna happen. So I think that's... I think we'll see. I think it, you know... Again, this is a group of people that have been there forever, and I would've liked to see maybe a little bit, uh, more, um, shakeup, but I see why they don't. Why would they? Uh, 'cause it's working. And so he's, you know, he's younger, he's more vibrant, and we'll see how he does. Anyway, uh, let's go on a quick break. When we come back, a new deal tells new details about SpaceX IPO. [gentle music]

Scott Galloway 34:40 Support for the show comes from BMC. Before you scale AI to every corner of your business, before you supercharge your agents with AI-ready data, before you trust your entire business to AI, BMC first. BMC is here to help you look past the hype of the AI revolution and look toward an orderly AI evolution. For decades, BMC has powered the systems the world can't afford to fail with automation, orchestration, and control at enterprise scale. And today, they are the automation engine for the AI era, the foundation for the agentic enterprise at scale. And as companies seek to harness the power of automation to streamline and accelerate their most complex and critical business processes, BMC is ready to partner with them because BMC is uniquely qualified to solve the orchestration data and execution challenges that AI creates. Before AI, before automation, before orchestration, BMC first. How can you change the course of your business when you partner with BMC? Learn more at bmc.com.

Kara Swisher 35:39 [upbeat music] Support for this show comes from Harvey AI. The future of law is agentic. Not just tools that assist, but AI agents that navigate complex matters. Harvey was built on legal agents that analyze, draft, and execute with precision. But great lawyers don't just complete tasks, they strategize. That's why Harvey created agents that can do the work from end to end. They build a plan, pull from secure data sources, run sub-agents in parallel, and draft the work product ready for your review so you can delegate the work and own the judgment. Harvey agents support work across fund formation, litigation, regulatory compliance, M&A, and more, adapting to the complexity of each matter and the way your team actually works. Trusted by more than sixty percent of the AM Law 100 and leading Fortune 500 legal teams, Harvey is the AI operating system designed specifically for legal work, helping teams move faster with greater precision and confidence. Harvey, AI tailored for law. Learn more at harvey.ai.Scott,

Kara Swisher 36:44 we're back. As SpaceX blockbuster IPO approaches, the company is doubling down on AI, striking a deal with Cursor, a coding startup for a possible sixty billion dollar acquisition. Uh, also some new details from the IPO filing. Elon and a group of insiders will have control of the company through a dual stock, uh, a dual class stock structure. What a surprise. Elon increased his stake in SpaceX last year, buying one point four billion dollars worth of stock from current and former employees. He stands to get sixty million more in shares if SpaceX market cap reaches six point six trillion dollars and the company completes a plan to build data centers in space. Slight hitch, the IPO prospectus warns that data centers and plans for the Moon and Mars rely on unproven tech and might not be commercially viable. Um, it-- Let me just add, um, uh, talk about these plans. In, in other news, Tesla is out with its latest earnings, reporting better than expected numbers, but still way below levels from a few years ago. One bright spot, the company said demand around the world is growing obviously because of rising fuel prices, increased demand for EVs, and they're the frontrunner in that. Shares initially rose in extended trading, but gave up those gains since Elon warned that significant increase in capital CapEx, which he noted was gonna start at twenty-five billion dollars for robots and all sorts of large, ambitious projects. I don't really care the deals. That was cool. If it would work, great. If they don't, too bad, or, you know, shareholders. Um, uh, you know, again, it's the Tesla-- the car business is not the business anymore, so he's gotta reach for something else. I don't fault them for that. Um, any, uh, any thoughts about the IPO and then Tesla?

Scott Galloway 38:21 Well, the, the, the news is their acquisition or announced acquisition of Cursor, and my sense is that xAI has not figured out a way to develop a revenue model or a product that garners revenue well-

Kara Swisher 38:34 Well, all the, all the founders have left, except for Elon, I think. There's nobody left

Scott Galloway 38:38 ... and Cursor is their attempt, I think, to bolt on a front end that has a commercially viable product.

Kara Swisher 38:42 Yeah, you're right.

Scott Galloway 38:43 The, the other observation I would make is that, you know, liars use-- statisticians lie and liars use statistics. Some of these numbers are just such bullshit. So when OpenAI said they were raising money at eight hundred and fifty billion, okay, call it a trillion if you guarantee me a seventeen percent preferred return and I have a liquidity preference. I don't care what number you put on [chuckles] the, the press release. And then, you know, I mean, Anthropic here now is worth more than, um, than OpenAI, but according to OpenAI's press release, they're worth two and a half times. The number that's a lie here that I'd wanna know more information about is a sixty billion dollar acquisition price, and I would bet it's structured something along the lines of the following, that if we go public and get a one and a half or two trillion dollar, um, market cap, we're gonna give you options worth three percent of the company, which da-da-da, is sixty billion dollars. They don't have sixty billion dollars in cash anywhere. So-

Kara Swisher 39:38 And also Andreessen's all mobbed up with that one, I think, and a whole bunch. They're all the same people.

Scott Galloway 39:42 But they wanna put out a headline number of sixty billion dollars-

Kara Swisher 39:46 Mm-hmm. Sure do

Scott Galloway 39:46 ... to connote more value in this thing than is probably there. Let me be clear. No one, no one is cashing a check for sixty billion dollars right now. [chuckles] So, uh, look, I think that, uh, like Musk with respect to business and what I'll call perception and pulling in a narrative around getting access to cheap capital to pull the future forward, he's likely the best in history, maybe with the exception of, I don't know, Netflix and Amazon played that game really, really deftly as well. But his ability to kinda continue to say, "No, look over here," as I stuff the rabbit into the hat. Oh, wait, you figured out Tesla is like just a mediocre auto company with low mar-- Wait, look over here. Oh, SpaceX has only got twelve billion in revenues and one and a half... Oh, wait, look over here. I mean, it's just... A-and integrating space connectivity, broadband, satellites, AI, autonomous-

Kara Swisher 40:37 Data centers in space

Scott Galloway 40:39 ... it's all-

Kara Swisher 40:39 Not a bad idea. [chuckles]

Scott Galloway 40:40 It is like every eight-year-old boy's dream.

Kara Swisher 40:43 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 40:43 I mean, it's like a company-

Kara Swisher 40:44 Yeah

Scott Galloway 40:44 ... envisioned for an eight-year-old.

Kara Swisher 40:46 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 40:47 But he is very good at this. He's very good at, in creating one plus one plus a little bit of jazz hands equals one and a half trillion dollars. And, uh, I look at this acquisition, makes no fucking sense. It's bullshit, the sixty billion, uh, dollar number. It's probably a good idea 'cause xAI needs more human capital, and it needs something. It, it... Quite frankly, it just needs more product management.

Kara Swisher 41:10 He has to hide things in things. That's why Twitter went into Grok, right, into xAI, because he had to hide it in there, like the losses and the declines and whatever. It's still m-m-- hugely influential for him. Same thing with this, his, his Grok thing, like all the people who he started it and touted it with have left. Um, so he's gotta make... You know, he, he makes, uh, shit into a very tasty shit sandwich sometimes. Um, and, and spending... You know, you're just gonna get what you get with this guy. He's gonna always advantage himself. Um, he wants to do cool things. He's gonna take your money to pay for it. And th-these numbers are insane, but they'll probably go up. So, uh, we don't-- we can't say don't invest, but the fact of the matter is they're, they're, you know... R- Are there gonna be a million robots in their homes? You can... And you can... By the way, there's a million movies of him talking about, uh, full self-driving, and I'm-- I didn't even get into this year, but it didn't happen. Like, everything he said was gonna happen didn't happen. But he's really good at raising money. He's really good at innovating certain things, but then he moves on. And so I think you just have to go with... Uh, y- And then he has the Starlink in the middle of it, and so that's, that's what you get with this guy. Um, the question is, is it rabbits and, and silliness, or is it the real thing? It-- and does it hardly matter given the spheres go up?

Scott Galloway 42:31 See, this is a problem. When you control a board and you have made [chuckles] all the board members a lot of money, you end up doing deals that have no fiduciary oversight. So in this instance, and this shit is boring, but no one pays attention to this stuff.It, it, it was a share for share deal when, when SpaceX acquired xAI, and they valued xAI at seventy-six bucks and SpaceX at five hundred and twenty-seven. If SpaceX had a board that could push back, they would say, "No, xAI is not worth in any way, um, two hundred and seventy billion," which is the value they're putting on Twitter with an AI veneer. Uh, no, it's not worth that, so we're not taking that dilution. But because Elon owns equally large amounts in each, he doesn't care.

Kara Swisher 43:18 He doesn't care.

Scott Galloway 43:19 So but meanwhile-

Kara Swisher 43:19 That's why he's gonna have control, right? That's why.

Scott Galloway 43:21 But meanwhile, SpaceX shareholders, in my view, are getting fucked to try and bail out xAI.

Kara Swisher 43:27 And Twitter before that. Yeah.

Scott Galloway 43:28 And Twitter and, and bail out-

Kara Swisher 43:29 And Tesla at some point. [chuckles]

Scott Galloway 43:30 And is bailing out Twitter shareholders-

Kara Swisher 43:32 Yeah

Scott Galloway 43:33 ... who he promised, "Back me in this ridiculous overpay of forty-four billion dollars, and I will figure out a way to get you your money back." But the problem is there's no one who has-- who can be a real fiduciary here and stand up for the shareholders they're supposed to represent because Musk is in charge, see above two class, two-class shareholder company.

Kara Swisher 43:51 Agree. No, I think you've got it just right. And you know what? I hope he gets a million robots. I've heard his robotic stuff is revolutionary, but, like, just m- land it. Land the fucking plane, so as they say. But, you know, it doesn't matter. These shares are gonna jump. They're just... He has this incredible ability to do so. He's the... Steve Jobs used to supposedly have this reality distortion field, except he actually delivered real company products. Um, I think he's got a reality distortion field. Sometimes things happen, sometimes they don't. All right, we're gonna go on a quick break. When we come back, we'll do a quick roundup of the rest of this week's news. There's so much news.

Scott Galloway 44:25 [gentle music] Support for the show comes from Anthropic. Not every question has an easy answer, and when you're looking through one of those problems, you want a partner to bounce ideas off of and figure out where the deeper issues lie. That's where Claude can help. Claude is the AI for minds that don't stop at good enough. It's a collaborator that actually understands your entire workflow and thinks with you. Whether you're debugging code at midnight or strategizing your next business move, Claude extends your thinking to tackle the problems that matter. Plus, Claude's research capabilities can have comprehensive, reliable analysis with proper citations turning hours of research into minutes. And Cowork brings Claude's code agentic power to your desktop, no terminal required, just point it to the folder on your computer or add connectors, including Google Drive and Gmail. Describe what you need, and it handles the rest. You can queue up tasks and come back to finished work. Ready to tackle bigger problems? Get started with Claude today at claude.ai/pivot. That's claude.ai/pivot, and check out Claude Pro, which includes access to all of the features mentioned in today's episode, claude.ai/pivot. [gentle music] Support for the show comes from Back Market. Listen, there's a lot of ads out there telling you to buy new products. I'm at a point in my life where I'd say two-thirds of the things I buy, I think, "Do I really need this?" I'd like to go somewhere, a silent retreat, and just live off a plate and a fork, but that has nothing to do with this ad. It's the same thing with tech ads, but Back Market gives you a smarter way to buy tech, bringing personal and home electronics back to life through professional refurbishment at a much lower price than new. It's all they do. Back Market offers a range of high-quality phones, computers, gaming consoles, vacuum cleaners, and even iPods. All of the tech at Back Market has been inspected and restored by best-in-class professionals to ensure it is in perfect working condition. They offer a one-year warranty and thirty-day returns, and not only is Back Market refurbished tech more affordable than buying new, it's also more sustainable. E-waste is the fastest-growing waste stream in the world, and Back Market is on a mission to reduce the environmental toll of the fast tech industry by making refurbished the smarter, more confident choice designed to use fewer raw materials, waste less, and emit less than new. Find your next phone for less on backmarket.com.

Kara Swisher 46:28 [swishing sound] Scott, we're back.

Kara Swisher 46:30 Now let's end with a news rundown of other stories I'd like to hit quickly. First, Health Secretary RFK Jr. made quite an impression as usual this week testifying before Congress, besides heavy breathing on the microphone, which was disturbing. Let's hear a clip of him defending Trump math while Senator Elizabeth Warren tries to ask a question.

Scott Galloway 46:48 There's two ways of calculating percentage. If you have a six-hundred-dollar drug-

Kara Swisher 46:51 Mr. Kennedy-

Scott Galloway 46:51 ... and you reduce it to ten, that's a six hundred percent reduction.

Kara Swisher 46:55 Mr. Kennedy, I understand, but you- He just kept going on the math. Elizabeth Warren wasn't having any of it. Meanwhile, a report showing the efficacy of COVID-19 vaccines has been blocked from being published in the CDC and Prevention's scientific journalists, the second time they're doing... trying to pretend these vaccines didn't work. Um, thoughts very quickly?

Scott Galloway 47:13 I think Hegseth is doing more damage to people outside of the US than any person in reas-recent history, and I think RFK Jr. is gonna do more-- cause more death, disease, and disability amongst Americans than any person in recent history, and President Trump has to take credit for that. But when you listen to the guy talk, he just... He absolutely has no qual- If there's one... [scoffs] I mean, you just did... You're, you're doing a show on this. If there's one place you need to defer to the experts, and folks, expertise is an actual thing, it's around health. And they have clearly decided, "All right, this guy is a fucking loose cannon talking about raccoon's genitalia," and they have basically said, "Keep this guy out of the news." What's interesting is that if he had ovaries, they would have fired him by now.

Kara Swisher 47:59 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 47:59 I mean, they seem to be quick to fire women. [chuckles]

Kara Swisher 48:01 Women.

Scott Galloway 48:02 Uh-

Kara Swisher 48:02 So the dirty mouth lady left the Labor Department.

Scott Galloway 48:04 Yeah. I mean, what... The three people now that have been let go, all women. Anyway-

Kara Swisher 48:08 There was one guy, Fallon, who's fighting with Hegseth.

Scott Galloway 48:11 Oh, the N-Na-

Kara Swisher 48:11 But go ahead.

Scott Galloway 48:12 The Navy Secretary.

Kara Swisher 48:13 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 48:14 Yeah. So look, i-i, I, I think RFK Jr. is... I, and I... This word's overused. RFK Jr. is dangerous.

Kara Swisher 48:21 Murderous.

Scott Galloway 48:21 And no one loves, uh, you know... N-No one loves RFK Jr. more than measles. And we're about to see, in my opinion, and we've already seen it, a potential comeback of some of the most devastating diseases which we had eradicated because of just junk science, head up your ass, um, beliefs, and conspiracy theories. The fact that this guy has been charged with the health of America and oversees the CDC is gonna set us backUh, years if not decades

Kara Swisher 48:50 Decades. Decades. And also, he's just such a suck-up to Trump, except let me just tell you, he's running for president too, by the way, with his heavy breathing.

Scott Galloway 48:56 They're all running for pre-- They all wake up in the morning-

Kara Swisher 48:57 He really is, and those Ma- MAGA people will stick with him.

Scott Galloway 49:01 They all wake up in the morning, look in the mirror and say, "Hello, Madam or Mr. President."

Kara Swisher 49:05 He really is-

Scott Galloway 49:05 All of these people

Kara Swisher 49:06 ... cannot be our president. [laughs] Like, oh God, if I had to pick, I, I don't know what I would do. And I'm not gonna have to pick. I won't pick any of them. Um, cryp- very quickly, crypto billionaire Justin Sun has sued the Trump family's crypto venture, accusing criminal extortion for freezing digital tokens over his refusal to invest more money with the company. Over at True Social, Devin Nunes has departed as the company CEO after four years in the role where they made, I don't know, five million dollars a year. In one year, he was paid forty-six million dollars. He's an incompetent moron. Thoughts on that? Just what a surprise, Justin Sun. You tried to pay to get out of an SEC thing, and they fucked you. What a surprise. Mobsters are gonna mob. I don't know [laughs] what else to say, and the Witkoffs are involved somewhere in here, one of the children.

Scott Galloway 49:48 It goes to the notion of reckoning. I think it should be done to the letter of the law, but I, I think right now, uh, the, uh, many of the people running for president or just many of our, our fine people serving in government in the Congress should be outlining and putting out plans to work with, to coordinate with states' AG. That, that somewhere has to be a crime, and I think we have to start signaling we are going to pursue these crimes, and the statute of limitations, I believe, on, uh, the emoluments cl- whatever it is, this is probably, this is probably, uh, I bet there's some very serious crimes this could potentially, under defense threats. So, uh, uh, but the fact that I went to an event where Stephen Witkoff, I spoke right after him, I just can't get over, and the vice president, Vice President Gore was there. I mean, this guy is engaging in naked criminality, and so, a- and by the way, I don't think it should be political retribution. I think we also should go after some Democrats, specifically around insider trading.

Kara Swisher 50:51 Well, let me get to that. For the prediction market news, Kalshi has fined and suspended three congressional candidates, uh, not, uh, both Democrats and Republicans, uh, for betting on their own races. That's not allowed over there at Kalshi. Uh, thoughts? They're, they're... That... All these rules have to go in place. A lot of companies are doing them now. Um, do not be, do not be betting on stuff like this. It is insider trading. I'm glad Kalshi called it out as that.

Scott Galloway 51:15 It was a brilliant move on Kalshi's part. I mean, okay, so there's good and really bad here. The good is that Kalshi has said, a- and this will cost them, the politicians will come out against them. They said, "You're not allowed to do this. We're fining you." That's the good part, good for them, smart move politically, strategically for, um, Tarek, the CEO of Kalshi. This is what's wrong with it. We shouldn't need [laughs] companies to regulate themselves. We... The fact that, uh, you know, the marketplace hates a void. It hates a vacuum. There's so little regulation that the company itself is fining people. It's like it... If, what if, what if all of a sudden Chevron said, "Okay, you're manufacturing our oil and putting too much carbon into the air because we are so fucking freaked out about the lack of an, an EPA"? That's where we are right now. The only regulation that's come down the pike in this stuff has usually been regulation to stop regulation, and so when companies feel... Everybody hopes that a company's gonna weigh in and regulate themselves. That is not the way to run industry or a country.

Kara Swisher 52:21 Not at all.

Scott Galloway 52:22 And this-

Kara Swisher 52:22 And they are. They are in some cases. A lot of, several companies have put in rules about this.

Scott Galloway 52:27 But the-

Kara Swisher 52:27 But it's insider trading is all we have to... [laughs] It's insider-

Scott Galloway 52:29 But the fact, that just gives you a sense for the fact there's no sheriff here. It's basically, this is, to a certain extent, it's kinda like vigilantism, that because there's no sheriff around, we have to enforce the law. So good on Kalshi, but it's a, it's a terrible indictment on our lack of regulatory infrastructure.

Kara Swisher 52:48 Agreed. One of them said he was doing it for a reason, to show how bad it was. Give me a break. Anyway, uh, one more quick break. We'll be back for predictions. [soft music] Support for this show comes from Virgin Atlantic. Flying to your dream destination can be a once in a lifetime feeling, and knowing your vacation is hours away can really feel exciting. It's a whole reason why Virgin Atlantic wants to make that feeling even better. Virgin Atlantic was born from a desire to bring back the joy of flying, and they've been that way ever since. Their beautiful, stylish new planes, mood lit in soft purple and pink, make you feel like a VIP before you've even settled into your seat. Their flight attendants spread warm welcome, attentive one-to-one service like no other. Customers in all cabins can choose their main meal before they fly. You can pre-order a range of menu options in advance and look forward to something delicious waiting aboard. If you're seeking a moment of well-being before takeoff, two luxurious pop-up wellness experiences have also arrived at their London Heathrow clubhouse, and enhancements to their award-winning clubhouse can bring you elevated comfort, modern style, and a sense of calm before you fly. Go to virginatlantic.com to learn more. [upbeat music] Support for this show comes from Indeed. When you're looking for talent, Indeed Sponsored Jobs can be just the boost you need. It matches you with quality candidates fast so you don't need to spend months searching for that new hire. According to their data, sponsored jobs posted directly on Indeed are ninety-five percent more likely to report a hire than non-sponsored jobs. Join the three point three million employers worldwide that use Indeed to connect with quality talent that fits their needs. Spend less time searching and more time actually interviewing candidates who check all your boxes. Less stress, less time, more results. When you need the right person to cut through the chaos, this is a job for Indeed Sponsored Jobs. And listeners to this show will get a seventy-five dollar sponsored job credit to help get your job the premium status it deserves at indeed.com/podcast. Just go to indeed.com/podcast right now and support our show by saying you heard about Indeed on this podcast. That's indeed.com/podcast. Terms and conditions apply.Hiring? Do it the right way with Indeed. [whoosh] Okay, Scott, we're

Kara Swisher 55:04 gonna do some predictions very quickly so people know. Warner Brothers shareholders just approved the deal with Paramount, although it's facing a lot of regulatory scrutiny. I suspect it'll get through, but it's gonna be a lot bumpier. And, um, so that's gonna be an interesting thing. There's a lot of pushback from Hollywood, all kinds of regulators, um, so even if it's just reached this step, um, I got my thing in the mail. I own some Warner shares. Um, thanks for the money, David. Uh, uh, it, it's, uh, it, we'll see where it goes. I, I don't know. There might, it might be a little rockier than, than people think, but they'll probably shove it through because they've only got a few months to, before Trump loses a lot of power. Your, your prediction?

Scott Galloway 55:43 By the way, it's, it right now on the prediction markets, it's saying that the likelihood it closes is around seventy-two percent, which is less than I thought.

Kara Swisher 55:52 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 55:52 They're saying there's a real-

Kara Swisher 55:53 That's some, some rocky-

Scott Galloway 55:53 There's like a one in three chance it doesn't close.

Kara Swisher 55:55 Yeah, there's some rockiness there. Anyway, go ahead.

Scott Galloway 55:58 My prediction is that when the SpaceX value-- when the SpaceX IPO goes out-

Kara Swisher 56:02 Mm-hmm

Scott Galloway 56:03 ... you will see an almost, not an equivalent, but a proportionate decline in the value of Tesla.

Kara Swisher 56:09 Hmm.

Scott Galloway 56:10 Because right now investors-

Kara Swisher 56:11 Wow

Scott Galloway 56:11 ... are paying for that Elon premium, and that is a, an inflated multiple in exchange for Musk charisma and vision. And right now, Tesla's forward P/E is a hundred and eighty-five. That's 12 times higher than the auto industry. And basically they're, they're paying 12 times what anyone else is garnering in the auto industry for a car company that has posted sales declines for two years in a row. And abroad, BYD has surpassed Tesla as the lo- largest seller of EVs and eating away at European share. In addition-

Kara Swisher 56:40 New battery technology they're doing in China right now that looks really promising. Go ahead.

Scott Galloway 56:44 In addition, Robotaxi and Optimus are long shot bets that may not pay off for five years, if at all. So essentially, all of a sudden, retail investors are gonna have an opportunity to buy into some of that Elon vision and magic, but with SpaceX. And so I think that magic acolyte worship of, that creates that a hundred and eighty-five times earnings of Tesla is gonna massively deflate. 'Cause I think all of that idolatry revenue is gonna go into SpaceX.

Kara Swisher 57:10 Oh, that's interesting.

Scott Galloway 57:11 So-

Kara Swisher 57:11 So boom

Scott Galloway 57:12 ... what you'll see is-

Kara Swisher 57:13 What if he merges it in?

Scott Galloway 57:16 [sighs]

Kara Swisher 57:18 They need robots at their data centers in space.

Scott Galloway 57:20 You've predicted that for a while.

Kara Swisher 57:22 I, I was right about the last one.

Scott Galloway 57:24 Yeah. You predi-- I, well, okay, that's a whole different ballgame, but if they're, assuming they maintain distinct capital structures, you're gonna basically see just a massive transfer of market cap from Tesla to SpaceX.

Kara Swisher 57:36 So Te- the, the n- the stuffing gets knocked out of Tesla. They're not gonna make the robots that are gonna run the data centers in space?

Scott Galloway 57:42 I-- look, I think industrial, industrialized robots are incredibly exciting. I, I think the notion that you're gonna have a robot in your house bringing you your soup or whatever, I just don't, I don't, I don't see that happening long term.

Kara Swisher 57:52 I'm gonna have that for you when you're old, in case you're in-

Scott Galloway 57:54 I've already got a Filipino man named Manny with well-moisturized hands lined up.

Kara Swisher 57:58 [laughs] No.

Scott Galloway 58:00 He's gonna change-

Kara Swisher 58:00 You're getting a robot named Barbara.

Scott Galloway 58:02 You're gonna push me around.

Kara Swisher 58:03 He's gonna-

Scott Galloway 58:03 You're gonna have trouble sitting over the back of my wheelchair.

Kara Swisher 58:05 [laughs] I'm gonna-

Scott Galloway 58:06 And I'll tell you dirty jokes, and you'll tell me to shut up.

Kara Swisher 58:07 I'll keep hitting you on the head, like, "I can't believe you said that back in 2014."

Scott Galloway 58:12 [laughs] We're late for our podcast.

Kara Swisher 58:14 I know.

Scott Galloway 58:15 It just-

Kara Swisher 58:16 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 58:16 They, they, they won a Webby forty years ago. [laughs]

Kara Swisher 58:18 Yeah, that's true. We won-

Scott Galloway 58:19 We didn't talk about the Webbys.

Kara Swisher 58:20 Oh my God. We won a Web-- we won, we won both Web, uh, both, all of us. And also Lost Boys got one, right? Is that correct?

Scott Galloway 58:27 So you won for On with Kara Swisher, and-

Kara Swisher 58:30 Interview, news

Scott Galloway 58:31 ... and Pivot won th- its third year in a row-

Kara Swisher 58:33 Business

Scott Galloway 58:33 ... for Best Business Podcast.

Kara Swisher 58:35 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 58:35 And my newsletter, No Mercy, No Malice, won for Best Business Newsletter, and-

Kara Swisher 58:39 It's a great business, business newsletter.

Scott Galloway 58:41 Thank you. And Lost Boys won for Best Special Series, co-hosted with, uh, the Mooch. Five Webby wins between the two of us, Kara.

Kara Swisher 58:51 Anyway, uh, we appreciate that. We like the Webbys. We have fun with them. Anyway-

Scott Galloway 58:54 Yeah, wasn't we?

Kara Swisher 58:54 ... that's a fun show. We wanna hear from you. Send us your questions about business, tech, or whatever's on your mind. Go to nytmag.com/pivot to submit a question for the show, or call 855-51-PIVOT. Okay, that's the show. Very good show, Scott. That was a very good discussion. I appreciate it.

Scott Galloway 59:08 I think I, word I came across as defensive.

Kara Swisher 59:10 No, you didn't. No, you didn't. You didn't.

Scott Galloway 59:12 Yeah, I think I did.

Kara Swisher 59:12 No, you didn't. No. It was called a discussion. Anyway-

Scott Galloway 59:15 When will I be enough, Kara?

Kara Swisher 59:17 Never.

Scott Galloway 59:17 When will I be enough?

Kara Swisher 59:18 Thanks for listening to Pivot.

Scott Galloway 59:20 [laughs]

Kara Swisher 59:20 And be sure to like and subscribe to our YouTube channel. We'll be back next week. [upbeat music]