EVERY SPOKEN WORD
75 min read · 14,581 words- 0:00 – 1:38
Intro
- KSKara Swisher
No fucks given in the f- most kind way possible.
- KCKaitlan Collins
Yes. I love that.
- KSKara Swisher
But lots of fucks given too. [upbeat music] Hi, everyone. This is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Kara Swisher, and we're back for yet another fine episode of... [upbeat music] Scott Free August. [air horn blaring] Oh, I love that so much. Today, I'm joined by Chief White House Correspondent and anchor of The Source with Kaitlan Collins, the very same Kaitlan Collins. Good to see you.
- KCKaitlan Collins
How does Scott feel about that, um, intro? [chuckles]
- KSKara Swisher
What do you think? You, you saw him more recently than I did. I saw a photograph of the two of you.
- KCKaitlan Collins
I did run into him.
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah, yeah.
- KCKaitlan Collins
Um, it's so funny to see Scott, like, out in the wild. Like, it, you know, it's like seeing, like, a teacher when you're, like, in the sixth grade-
- KSKara Swisher
[laughs]
- KCKaitlan Collins
... outside of school, and you're like, "What are you doing here on vacation?"
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah, did you see that? What was he doing there? Any reports?
- KCKaitlan Collins
Um, he was just hanging out. He was having dinner with someone, um, like a political, you know, foreign policy thinker. Um, he was good. He seemed rested and ready to get back to podcasting.
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah, he's suddenly, he's suddenly texting me a lot, so I know-
- KCKaitlan Collins
[laughs]
- KSKara Swisher
... that it's the end of August 'cause he's like, "Hey, girl" and I'm like-
- KCKaitlan Collins
[laughs]
- KSKara Swisher
... "Oh, hi. Good to talk to you." Like, anyways.
- KCKaitlan Collins
[laughs]
- KSKara Swisher
And he's also threading a lot. You know, he does Threads, and so he has an opinion about things. I'll, I'll tell you, uh, we'll, we'll discuss this later, but he's very upset that he's not here for the Natalie H- Harp situation. He, like-
- KCKaitlan Collins
Oh, boy
- KSKara Swisher
... missed that com-- And now, uh, uh, uh, Dolly Parton, uh, which Scott and I are huge fans.
- 1:38 – 13:28
Remembering Dolly Parton
- KSKara Swisher
So you dedicated your entire show to Dolly Parton on Tuesday night. Um, talk a little bit about it. What's your favorite Dolly song to start with?
- KCKaitlan Collins
I mean, I was actually thinking about this last night 'cause I was listening to-- I had a very long car ride last night, and I was listening to Dolly Parton the whole time. You know, I really think-- I mean, there are so many good ones, um, and "Islands in the Stream" is incredible. But I really think it's "Hard Candy Christmas" because-
- KSKara Swisher
Oh, good for you
- KCKaitlan Collins
... it is, like-- I know. It's kind of, like, a random one. Um-
- KSKara Swisher
No, it's not. That-- You're-
- KCKaitlan Collins
It's not random, but it's not always-
- KSKara Swisher
Then you're a real fan if you know that one, yeah. Yeah.
- KCKaitlan Collins
Yeah, it's not always the first one I think people think of.
- KSKara Swisher
Right.
- KCKaitlan Collins
But it's what I think of when I think of Dolly Parton. And for us to dedicate a whole show to something that is not political, uh, politically related is pretty rare for us, but it really speaks to, I think, how everyone felt about, about Dolly Parton, certainly how I think about her.
- KSKara Swisher
Oh, but I think she was politically related in a way that was very different. I think she did a lot of political things without saying them out loud. She was someone who was called, like, quiet politics, like, in terms of her actions, whether it was supporting the Moderna vaccine or whether it was, uh, you know, doing all manner of feminist things without having to say so or supporting trans people or supporting Black Lives Matter. She was quite explicit about that. So she was political in a very different way than what we're used to, I would assume.
- KCKaitlan Collins
I still haven't figured out how she did that. I mean, how she built this massive career, stayed true to her roots, was always herself. I mean, that's what I think is the most infectious part about her is you watch her get all these questions, you know, 20, 30 years ago from a lot of men about her appearances and her look and how that affects her. I mean, Dan Rather's face when they're in this sit-down and she's saying that she never slept with anyone to get anywhere. She only slept with people that she wanted to sleep with-
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah, yeah
- KCKaitlan Collins
... if she happened to have slept with them-
- KSKara Swisher
Right
- KCKaitlan Collins
... is this iconic moment. And he-- I mean, you can tell he doesn't even know what to really say-
- KSKara Swisher
What to do
- KCKaitlan Collins
... back to her.
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah, yeah, yeah. People ask me, "Who do you w- want to interview of all people?" And I said, "Dolly Parton, but only about her entrepreneurship." I was like, "I don't want to talk about the songs. I don't want to talk about anything but her entrepreneurship." And that's what really got through, her ability to shift and change and move along, whether she went from, you know, country to leaving that show, The Porter Wagner Show-
- KCKaitlan Collins
Mm-hmm
- KSKara Swisher
... to moving on to, uh, pop. She is the quintessential American entrepreneur. A- and, and i- it sp-- I'd heard the reason I wanted to interview her was she was doing a lot of stuff with AI and s- s- song stems 'cause she owns thousands of songs that haven't been released too. And so she wanted them released after she died. And this is what I heard.
- KCKaitlan Collins
Wow, I didn't know that.
- KSKara Swisher
E- exactly. And I w- I, like, wanted to talk to her about it. And just y- she is the absolutely quintessential American entrepreneur in a way that is so beautiful and also just a kind and just a kind soul in a way that's very profound.
- KCKaitlan Collins
Everyone's talked about her Imagination Library, and I'm, I'm a huge reader still, but reading-
- KSKara Swisher
My kids use it
- KCKaitlan Collins
... reading is, it's amazing, and reading as a kid was so, like, instrumental for me. But what I loved when she talked about why she started it is because her dad couldn't read or write. But she didn't say, "Oh, he couldn't read, couldn't write." She said, "He never had the chance to learn, and he didn't have that opportunity afforded to him." And I loved how she phrased that because I do think, I mean, all over but especially in the South, so many of us have grandparents or great-grandparents that are like that. And it wasn't that they couldn't or that they wouldn't have been able to. It was that they didn't have the opportunity, and that is what she wanted to give to people.
- KSKara Swisher
Right. Absolutely. All the time. And one of the m- moments, and you probably covered this, when she did the-- She used the Jolene song, which is one amazing song, um, in lots of ways, including technically how she put it together. But, um, Jo- uh, she had vaccine, vaccine, vaccine, vaccine.
- KCKaitlan Collins
[laughs] Yeah.
- KSKara Swisher
That was also a moment when there's all this anti-vac.
- KCKaitlan Collins
Mm-hmm.
- 13:28 – 17:29
Meta’s $17 Billion Settlement
- KSKara Swisher
Kaitlan, uh, nearly $17 billion to settle a major federal case brought by 29 states over allegations that Facebook and Instagram harm children's mental health. The deal also requires major changes to Meta's apps, including daily time limits, nighttime blocks for teens, and stronger age verification measures. The settlement comes in the second week of a high-stakes trial in California, where states accuse Meta of misleading the public about risks to young users. Um, a- any, any thoughts on this? You and I talk about this a lot. I thought it was, uh, I think you don't pay s- a lot of, several people are like, "Oh, it's peanuts." It's not peanuts, guys. This is a big deal. Um, I know it's not enough, and everyone had pretended it was $1.4 trillion. That was never gonna be a settlement. Maybe 100 million, 200 million might have happened in a jury trial. But this is real money, and, uh, hopefully real changes. So this is, of course, led by Rob Bonta, who's also doing the Paramount deal. I know you talked to him recently, um, or the, the case, leading the cases for the attorney generals. But talk a little bit about this, 'cause this is a point where, first of all, states' attorney generals are the ones doing legislation here, finally getting these changes when the federal government, both Democrats and Republicans, um, have done nothing at the federal level. So do you-
- KCKaitlan Collins
Yeah, I think sometimes when you see those lawsuits, you kind of wonder if it's gonna go anywhere.
- KSKara Swisher
Right.
- KCKaitlan Collins
And I mean, this settlement today speaks to that. And you know, my questions were, one, it, it seems like the changes, obviously they're directed at children, and that has been the focus of this, is that it will affect all users potentially-
- KSKara Swisher
Yes
- KCKaitlan Collins
... in terms of what they're changing.
- KSKara Swisher
As it should, yeah.
- KCKaitlan Collins
And you know, what that, you know, the nighttime activity, you know, how long you're on there during the day. Um, and I think the second question that I had looking at this was, you know, obviously they chose to settle. Maybe they saw the writing on the wall, and they didn't think it was gonna go well for them. And is it the first of many?
- KSKara Swisher
Yes.
- KCKaitlan Collins
Are we gonna see more of this just because this has happened here? 'Cause I mean, there are so many other cases that are happening.
- KSKara Swisher
There are. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think it, what it says is if you push back hard enough, these... Let me just say, I'm glad they settled. I'm glad they're doing these things, and, uh, someone from Facebook sent this to me. It's a two-hour daily time limit, turning off access to our apps at night as a default, no notification during school hours, clear prompts and notifications for teens every 15 minutes of continuous screen time, new parental supervision controls so parents can decide how their teens use the app. Um, so these are all things that are great. These are also things that should've been there a long time ago. Let me just be clear.
- KCKaitlan Collins
You know, it's great for kids, and I think that we should have it. I mean, I think about my nephews who are not yet into this era yet, and it's terrifying because they're so pure and perfect and happy, and you don't want that to be corrupted. I also think it should happen maybe for people who are 65 plus, because I think-
- KSKara Swisher
Yes
- KCKaitlan Collins
... a lot of people's parents are online way too much, and sometimes I talk to my own parents, and I'm like, "Wait, what?" Like, "What did you see?" Or, "What did you-
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah.
- KCKaitlan Collins
"Like, that, that's AI. That's not even real."
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah.
- KCKaitlan Collins
"Or that's not, you know-
- KSKara Swisher
Yes. No, I agree
- KCKaitlan Collins
... there's videos of me being used." And so I don't actually think it should only apply to children. [laughs]
- KSKara Swisher
No, no, no. It's bigger.
- KCKaitlan Collins
I think that adults need this too. [laughs]
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah, there's gonna be more cases like that. I think it's just easier for people to, speaking of agree, like Marsha Blackburn agrees with, you know, someone on the left on this topic, right?
- KCKaitlan Collins
Mm-hmm. Yep.
- KSKara Swisher
Unless she, unless she wants to be governor, and then she changes a little bit. But, you know, it's a really, it's a big issue for everyone, and I think it's a, l- you know... A- actually, I'm working on a new book, and it's about a digital bill of rights. Like, what should we all have, uh, going forward? And one of the, the, this is the beginning, not the end of this. And as much as people don't want a settlement, going to trial, Facebook has unlimited options of suing and sue, like appealing and appealing and appealing, and this would've taken years to get these things that need to happen on the ground, right, initially for kids. And others will follow. That's also, the other companies will follow. I mean, they're the biggest one, obviously. But w- we'll qui- it will g- it will start to set limits of what we want. Again, the government should've done this. So should Facebook many years ago, but they didn't. Um, and so that's one of the things, and it will not end. It will not end what's happening here, which is a, a absolute trend, which you're seeing again politically, Kaitlan. I mean, you're seeing, y- you, you've written, we've, we've talked a lot about on the show, um, about
- 17:29 – 20:44
Data Center Backlash
- KSKara Swisher
these data centers, which to me is a proxy.
- KCKaitlan Collins
Yeah.
- KSKara Swisher
How important is it, the people you interview? Because look, Mike Rogers changed, uh, Abbott changed, V- Vivek, uh, Vi- Vivek Ramaswamy changed. W- what do you think the impact is gonna have?
- KCKaitlan Collins
I mean, not only did they change, it was a full 180.
- KSKara Swisher
Yes, yes.
- KCKaitlan Collins
And so, you know, we are o- we have an interesting-
- KSKara Swisher
One might call that a lie, but go ahead.
- KCKaitlan Collins
[laughs]
- KSKara Swisher
Go ahead.
- KCKaitlan Collins
Well, and I think, you know, some of the Democratic candidates who are running, you know, we had, um, Gina Hinojosa, who's running-
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah
- KCKaitlan Collins
... against Abbott on the other night, and she was saying, "Well, let's see if this is real," because I think if he wins re-election, um, and obviously this is his opponent speaking, but she said that she thought maybe he'd change back his stance given where he was just a year ago. And I think it's, it's incredible because speaking of crossover again, which obviously is, like, the dominant theme here, this is something that people on the far right and the very progressive left seem to agree on, um, which is this hesitancy at best and a full-out opposition at worst for these companies against these data centers being built in their communities with no say so, no transparency they feel on their behalf of what's happening. And we had seen these, you know, Republicans, in most cases, ushering in these, these giants to their states to, you know, take over this and, you know, without regard it seems like whether or not these small communities where they're being built can keep up with, you know, what that would re- require and entail for resources. Um, but I mean, with, you know, Kathy Hochul imposing her moratorium, the response to that, but seeing how it is now starting to take shape, and everyone is kind of shifting to this, with the exception of people like President Trump. He says it's a mistake.
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah, so tell me that. I was gonna say that. Why, how come he's sticking to his guns? I mean, you c- he, oddly enough, you kind of have to respect him for that. He's gonna go, he's all in on AI, and his whole administration is based on the bear hug that he gave to these AI people. But he's not backing down, and it probably will hurt Other candidates, presumably
- KCKaitlan Collins
Well, there's a lot of Republican districts where this has become a huge issue, or even, I mean, obviously we were talking about the Rep- Republican Senate seat in Ohio the other night in terms of where this stands. And so Trump is someone who has often been praised over the last decade for being so in touch with his political instincts, his base. This is an area where it doesn't seem to be the case because there is so much concern and skepticism about this. And so, I, I mean, I think the question is, do we get on the other side of the midterm elections this November, and this is actually a way bigger issue than people anticipated in terms of, you know, as you and I were talking about the other night, real grassroots-
- KSKara Swisher
It is
- KCKaitlan Collins
... opposition to this. It's not, you know, Michael Whatley in North Carolina was saying that it's all basically ginned up and-
- KSKara Swisher
He, he did
- KCKaitlan Collins
... it's being driven by outside forces, but-
- KSKara Swisher
Right
- KCKaitlan Collins
... as you were saying, that's not the case.
- KSKara Swisher
It's not. Well, that was Kevin O'Leary in, uh, in Utah. It's just moronic. It's moronic to call these people Chinese Communist patsies. I mean, honestly, uh, it, it was so weird, and I'm-- when Whatley did that, I'm like, "You, sir, first of all, it's untrue, and second of all, you're obviously not talking to your constituents," 'cause you need to talk to these people, 'cause all kinds of people are concerned. I-- You just... It'll be interesting to see what Trump does after, if this show proves to be a big deal, because it's about economics, really. The data centers are about economics, not about... Well, it is about AI. It is.
- 20:44 – 29:49
Bill Gates’ AI Warning
- KSKara Swisher
And speaking of which, Bill Gates is sounding the alarm on AI just when tech leaders wanted to pull back on the doom scrolling and the doom saying that we're gonna kill all your jobs. In a nearly 6,000-word essay on his website, Gates warns the transition to this new AI era will be one of the most turbulent times in human history, and we're not prepared for it. Gates is proposing solutions, including taxes on AI tokens and bots and reserving certain jobs for humans. He's also urging countries to collaborate on regulation, specifically calling for the US and China to work together. He's absolutely right. Bill Gates did acknowledge to The Washington Post that people might dismiss his views given his ties to Jeffrey Epstein. He again called his interactions with Epstein a very bad mistake. It was indeed a very bad mistake, Bill. I also told him that. Um, talk about this because, um, it's really, um, uh, it, it's an interesting thing 'cause the tech leaders have been trying to pull back, and again, Trump is not pulling back on this, right? Not pulling back on this issue and has been best friend to S- AI essentially throughout this administration, including at the very beginning, uh, putting them in the front row. And I'll just also note, MIT just put out a report recommending a fundamental rethink of higher education in the age of AI, calling for redesigned assessments, more hands-on learning, and course-specific rules for AI use because AI can now do all the undergraduate courses in, like, four seconds, which is really amazing. So talk about this as a political issue, because one of the things that's important is there, there hasn't been much. Is there any plus in doing it, uh, doing stuff around what Gates is talking about?
- KCKaitlan Collins
But I mean, talk about a holy shit moment. As you're reading that, uh, it's like the call is coming from inside the house because he's saying, "Hi, I'm one of these industry leaders, and I'm saying that not only are my colleagues completely downplaying the concerns over this because they want to make more money," he's saying, "This idea that we're going to self-regulate is just not even-
- KSKara Swisher
Laughable
- KCKaitlan Collins
... close to having a grasp on reality."
- KSKara Swisher
Right. Right.
- KCKaitlan Collins
I mean, to hear that from him should be alarming to everyone. And you know, it made me think back to every time we have Bernie Sanders on the show, which is maybe once every couple of weeks, we always talk about AI, AI with him, and he always says-- he's beating the drum on it, and he's saying, you know, "No one's paying attention to this. It is going to wipe out, um, the job force, that people do not understand the impact it's going to have, and by the time we do, it's gonna be too late." And so he's basically arguing in a different way than what Bill Gates is saying here, but arguing the same message. And so for Bill Gates to say, you know, "My colleagues are not going to be the ones who are going to step up and, and handle this," and going back to the Meta lawsuit that we were just talking about, I mean, we've seen what's happened before when they are the ones who are expected to, to be in charge of the guidelines and the guardrails.
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah, it's the fox guarding the henhouse. They have no interest in regulation whatsoever, unless it's to their advantage or a big, fat, pretty contract with the Department of Defense on AI or something like that.
- KCKaitlan Collins
Okay, but then the other question is, okay, so is it up to Congress or Washington?
- KSKara Swisher
Yes.
- KCKaitlan Collins
Because we interview those people every day, and yes, Bernie Sanders is the one leading the charge on this from, you know, the people that we have on the show. But this idea that they're going to understand what they're doing and be able to do it, like, I don't have a lot of confidence in that.
- KSKara Swisher
All right. But do they understand how planes fly? Do they need to? We were able to manage to have many car regulations. This-- See, to me, that's always the excuse.
- KCKaitlan Collins
But it was slower, I think. That's what Bill Gates is saying, is he's talking about the farming transition, you know, with agricultural, um, agricultural revolution and industriala- industrialization, is it happened over generations, and people had time to adjust, and he's saying... I mean, what I found one of the most alarming things in here was he was saying, "We don't have time for that, basically, here. That's not going to happen in the same way."
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah. Well, I don't know. I feel like they can do it. They haven't tried in any way whatsoever, and they've been captive. And again, I wonder if Trump's embrace of them is gonna have a real effect on, on the elections. I mean, of, of all the things, h- where would you rank tech being i-in that, in that list?
- KCKaitlan Collins
Of, like, voters' concerns?
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah.
- KCKaitlan Collins
I mean, I think in, in rural areas, the data centers backlash, the flock cameras backlash is becoming more and more of a thing.
- KSKara Swisher
The flock-- This is police who, who are taking pictures of people, surveillance.
- KCKaitlan Collins
Yeah, the AI readers of, like, the, the license plates. I mean, and you know, I, I've seen obviously people responding to the data centers, people saying that's not well-founded, or maybe we just aren't being transparent enough about this, or as Greg Abbott was saying, you know, they dug their own grave by not being more forthright and honest about what was happening and what people should expect. Um, I, I think that could end up being a big thing. I think obviously the economy and inflation, but they're all kind of tied together, you know-
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah, they are
- KCKaitlan Collins
... because it's making people think about what they have money for, what they can afford, where they're stretched thin, and then, you know, these tech giants are building these data centers in their backyards. And affecting resources and water is their main concern, and I think that's, you know, is all kind of intertwined.
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm. How do you-- Very-- I'm gonna finish this up, but how do you think about AI? What do you do? How do you use it? 'Cause there was this controversy over this, this, uh, guy who was insulting Scott Bessent, a very famous investor. He used AI for this Wall Street Journal-
- KCKaitlan Collins
Yeah, his mentor
- KSKara Swisher
... thing. His mentor, right, exactly. Well, I think Scott Bessent's been soiling himself for months now, but that's just my opinion. Um, w- how do you look, how do you look at it yourself when you think about its use in your life or in your reporting or how you cover things?
- KCKaitlan Collins
You know, and the part of Bill Gates' thing that I thought resonated was he was talking about all these ways that it could be helpful to people, and not just to, you know, elites or fancy people or people who have these, like, you know, cozy, cushy jobs. He was talking about how it could really affect people who, you know, are working, you know, two jobs and don't have time to deal with the paperwork for healthcare or for getting government benefits or applying for financial aid for college. Or it's this convoluted, kind of difficult thing. You know, when I went to college, um, my sister had gone to college, but we were kind of navigating this process on our own, you know? It wasn't really something-- We didn't have a fa- like a legacy of people who had, are alumni that we knew how to, to consult. And so applying for financial aid was really difficult, and we didn't totally understand it, even what we were signing up for then. And talking about how that could be helpful to people now, I love, and I think that could be really, really helpful to a lot of the people I grew up with. But I think on the other side of it, it's if this happens so fast and it wipes out all these jobs before we even have time to understand the implications of it-
- KSKara Swisher
Right
- KCKaitlan Collins
... um, it's scary.
- KSKara Swisher
It is.
- KCKaitlan Collins
But I think everyone can see how it's helpful to them on a daily basis.
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah.
- KCKaitlan Collins
I use it for research and for looking things up. Uh, my dad use it. My dad sells mobile homes. He uses it every day, um, for random things. [chuckles]
- 29:49 – 43:38
Trump’s Political Power
- KSKara Swisher
snapped his recent losing streak with endorsed candidates coming out on top in the latest round of Republican primaries in South Carolina. Lindsey Graham's sister, Darleen, won her primary despite having virtually no political experience and debate snafu over foreign policy. Uh, but Trump went all in on her, visiting South Carolina to stump for her and also tapping into his MAGA Inc super PAC, which he doesn't often do. Trump also had success in Oklahoma, where his candidate won in the Republican runoff for governor. Talk, talk a little bit about this because, um, he also, uh, speaking of the midterms, got a major boost from the Supreme Court this week in his push to redistrict mail-in voting. Now, it, it was reported not quite correctly. The majority-
- KCKaitlan Collins
Yeah
- KSKara Swisher
... of justices said Trump could move forward with his executive order, which means plans to do it, not actually implementing, which directs the Postal Service to help determine which voters should receive mail-in ballots. Um, it's unclear whether it's actually gonna impact the midterms. A separate injunction is in place, and more legal wrangling is expected. But as Justice, uh, uh, Brown Jackson wrote in her dissent, "The ruling needlessly injects chaos and uncertainty into the upcoming midterm elections." About 30% of all ballots in the 2024 election were cast by mail. While Trump has long attacked mail-in voting, he's used it himself a lot, most recently in his, uh, in, uh, this month in Florida's GOP primary.
- KCKaitlan Collins
Yeah, just a couple days ago.
- KSKara Swisher
Um, but it, it's, it-- What they said is, if he breaks-- It's like they didn't want to do pre-crime. If it's illegal, we'll call it illegal, but right now he can plan for it, essentially, which I-- That seemed fair, honestly, but icky, but fair. Um, talk about these two things, of where his power is right now.
- KCKaitlan Collins
Well, on the executive order, um, yeah, they were basically saying for now this can move forward. But the lawsuit, it wasn't about the merits. The ruling wasn't about the merits of the case. It was more about the timing and when they were sued over it. So we'll see what happens there, 'cause I mean, obviously, you know, we're 10 weeks out from the midterms. The closer you get, the harder it is to implement those changes, agree with them or disagree. On Darleen Graham, though, I mean, we went into Tuesday night not knowing what really was going to happen in that Senate runoff because obviously Republicans in South Carolina, you know, are kind of divided on this. Not kind of divided, they are divided on it because so many people wanted to run for this seat, but the president had self-anointed, or had anointed Darleen Graham after her brother's death so suddenly this summer. And so going into last night, the one takeaway as we've been following Trump's endorsement power, you know, whether or not he can bring these candidates over the line if he's not on the ballot, it showed that he still does have that power because he basically elevated someone who until a couple weeks ago was not well-known, who did have some debate mishaps, whose policy deci- de- decisions and stances are not really well-defined. Um, and he basically elevated her in a way to where she was successful last night against Ralph Norman. And so, and it's not like Ralph Norman is someone who is not this massive ally of the president's. He's the person who, last time we had him on this show, we asked him about the text message he sent after January 6th where he said he wanted the president to declare martial law.
- KSKara Swisher
Yes, I recall.
- KCKaitlan Collins
And I asked him about that, and then he told me his only regret was that he spelled it M-A-R-S-H-A-L-L, not M-A-R-T-I-A-L. [laughs] Um, so this person is a very close ally of the president's, to, to put it lightly.
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah, yeah.
- KCKaitlan Collins
But obviously Darleen Graham was pulled across the line, likely is gonna be a senator till 2032 at least, uh, because obviously it's a-
- KSKara Swisher
Why did he do it? Why did he, why her versus Stormin' Norman?
- KCKaitlan Collins
As we were reporting on this, when he came out and endorsed her to have the seat just for a little bit in that temporary period until the runoff, I talked to White House officials who said, "It's just a tribute to Lindsey. It's his dear friend that he lost suddenly, and she's gonna be there kind of, you know, in just a placeholder role." They did not think it was going to be for the long haul. These are White House officials who speak to the president. And so we kinda said okay, and then we got closer to the runoff and it was clear that the president thought that Darleen Graham should run for the seat really, and now obviously is the nominee. And so I think there are questions of what that's going to look like once she's in the Senate. She said she disagreed with her brother only on immigration, that she would've gone further. Um, but wasn't able to articulate, you know, policy on Taiwan, for example, which could be a real issue soon. And so-
- KSKara Swisher
Absolutely
- KCKaitlan Collins
... uh, I, I think it did speak, though, to the president's political power. But the other part of this is, and that's what the White House will tout, they had to spend a lot of money from his super PAC that does not, has been pretty stingy, actually, with Republicans. They spent $800,000 here. He did a virtual rally. He did an in-person rally. I mean, the president put a lot of effort into a very safe Republican seat in ensuring that his candidate got across the line, and I think that's because it, his endorsement power has been tested in other places and he didn't want it to be tested here.
- KSKara Swisher
Well, there's a lot of coverage about his power waning rather considerably. Like, and, uh, you know, he definitely had to he- heavy this one, right? He had to shove it through-
- KCKaitlan Collins
Yeah
- KSKara Swisher
... in a way that he never had to do.
- KCKaitlan Collins
Which for South Carolina is-
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah, that's incredible
- KCKaitlan Collins
... pretty remarkable in and of itself.
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah. So how does, how are people looking about his power? There's all kinds of people leaving the administration. You know, s- I think everyone wants to get out ahead of the Democratic pot- potential subpoenas, uh, in, in the midterms 'cause most people... W- what's interesting also about that Darleen race is Polymarket and Calshi did get it right. Polling did not, which was interesting. They were more accurate in terms of the final numbers, maybe a little bit too high, um, for them and way too low for the polls, which is interesting. That's a whole crisis right now in political coverage. Um, b- but, but, uh, then again, they got a bunch of other things wrong, Polymarket did, um, in, in Michigan and other places, and Wisconsin. Um, what do, what, uh, where is the power now? Where, what, what, how are people feeling with people leaving and, you know, you've covered this administration since when? Like, since the la- y- the first one, right?
- KCKaitlan Collins
Forever.
- KSKara Swisher
Forever? [laughs] You and Maggie Haberman. [laughs]
- KCKaitlan Collins
Maggie, uh-
- KSKara Swisher
Veterans of a war that will never end
- KCKaitlan Collins
... she's covered Trump longer than me, but yeah.
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah.
- KCKaitlan Collins
I've been there for all the, all the admin years.
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah.
- KCKaitlan Collins
You know, in terms of his power, uh, it is a real question, I think, and you know, this November it'll obviously be a test to that, but also it's a test of just, you know, political conventional wisdom, which is that the president, you know, after his first years in office, his, his party loses pretty badly i- when it comes to these congressional elections. We'll see what shapes out here. I mean, I think with the redistricting and so much that has changed in just since February alone with the war, we don't really have a good understanding. We don't know, and given how wrong the polls have been, and they're just a snapshot, I, I do think we don't really know what's gonna happen in November. Everyone kind of assumes they know, but I think we have to wait and really see what this looks like. And so I, I think for the president, though, and the way he views his endorsement power, which, you know, last night he was calling Darleen Graham an underdog, saying, like he was touting his own power and acknowledging that she is not this strong political figure in South Carolina. For him, I think it's also a test of he came into office in the second term with so much power, and able to bend corporate executives, congressional Republicans, law firms, pretty much anybody to his will.
- 43:38 – 47:04
Golf Ad Backfires
- KSKara Swisher
ad from s- the sports world, golf-focused media company Good Good Golf and equipment maker Calloway have apologized after an ad for their golf club, uh, showed a male golfer shoving a woman to the ground after she reached for his club. The video was intended as a parody of the horror movie Obsession. Let me tell you, it is not one. Uh, but, uh, drew backlash for making light of violence against women. By the way, in that movie, the woman was murderous, okay? She wasn't like... She was murderous. Good Good removed the video and apologized, and Cal- Calloway acknowledged that he'd approved the ad before it, uh, posted, which should have never happened. Of course, mistakes were made is not really a good excuse for, like, beating up on a woman. But Good Good plans to donate the campaign's proceeds to an organization supporting women. No, thanks. Uh, though they're still in the process of researching which one to give it to. Um, talk a little bit about a room of people approving an ad like this, and I would love you-- One of the things, I, I know you've talked a lot about the smile thing and, and the attacks that President Trump does on you, which are very complicated, I think, in a lot of ways. But one of the things I said when I was on The View when I, I was arguing with Sunny Hostin over this, and she's like, "Everyone in the room should say something," or she should say something back. I said, "Absolutely not. She's handling it exactly right." Not having an emotion, doing her job, asking the question. If she makes it about her or a back and forth with the president, it re- it's not what she should do. Talk a little... 'Cause this was, it-- 'cause the, the attacks on you are sexist. There's just no other way around it. Um, talk a little bit about this ad and, and, and is-- I assume that's why you don't respond and the wh- why you respond the way you do, which is to be a professional.
- KCKaitlan Collins
Yeah. I mean, first off, on the ad, I'm not in the golf world really at all. Um, I was a cart girl in college to make money, but other than that, that's probably-
- KSKara Swisher
What's a cart girl?
- KCKaitlan Collins
... the extent of my knowl- It's like the person who, um, you're in the cart that's loaded up with beer, water, sandwiches, and you drive backwards on the course, and-
- KSKara Swisher
What?
- KCKaitlan Collins
... you're basically, like, the rolling concession stand.
- KSKara Swisher
What? [laughs]
- KCKaitlan Collins
Um, but the golfers are always really glad to see you-
- KSKara Swisher
Oh
- KCKaitlan Collins
... 'cause, you know, if you're out on a big c- big course in Alabama-
- KSKara Swisher
Hot
- KCKaitlan Collins
... in July, it gets hot.
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah, yeah.
- KCKaitlan Collins
Um, and I would always try to be, like, the best cart girl.
- KSKara Swisher
Cart girl.
- KCKaitlan Collins
I would whip around that course. I would always remember everyone's orders. Um, it was actually a great job. I loved it.
- KSKara Swisher
So you didn't run behind a golf cart like, say, Natalie Harp, right? Correct.
- KCKaitlan Collins
No, I was driving the golf cart.
- KSKara Swisher
Okay, good. [laughs]
- KCKaitlan Collins
And it was huge and heavy, and you worked, like, 14-hour days-
- KSKara Swisher
Okay
- KCKaitlan Collins
... and I would get home and be totally exhausted.
- KSKara Swisher
Uh-huh.
- KCKaitlan Collins
Um, it was good. It was a good college job, and, uh, I highly recommend it. Um, but when I saw that ad, and then the respon- It's always the response that, like, somehow makes it worse. It's like they, people really don't know how to-- One, the fact that it got approved and people thought this is hilarious is insanity. But, but then the response, the mistakes were made, we're researching, you know, the best place to, to donate this money to, I mean, it's just cringe-worthy. You think, how does it get that far? And I understand, you know, sometimes people make mistakes, bad judgment calls. That seemed like a pretty obvious one, where obviously, like, did they ask any women what they thought about that ad before they, uh, posted it?
- KSKara Swisher
No. But honestly, did they ask any men? Like, uh, I, I-- My son saw it, and he was like, "Are you kidding me?" So how, why do you think... It is, is that sort of a, a, a thing of Trump, like manly man or, or something? What do you, h- what do you attribute it to?
- KCKaitlan Collins
I think with the, with the president, it's more of a power thing.
- 47:04 – 55:08
When Trump Calls You Out…
- KCKaitlan Collins
Um, I think that it's, you know, moments where we're coming into the Oval Office to what I was just saying about how people treat him, and, you know, we've watched it. You see it all the cabinet meetings or with executives who come in there, and they each take turns praising him, saying he's the first president who's ever done X, Y, and Z for them. Um, that is an environment that he is used to and has been for some time and doesn't face a lot of questioning or pushback or opposition. And I mean, even his own aides devise, you know, when they disagree with him, how to bring that up to him and how to talk to him about it. And so I, I think that, you know, when people come in the Oval Office and the way they've changed the press corps, you know, there's one or two annoying people in there who are asking him questions that he doesn't like, even if they're pretty straightforward questions and they're quoting other officials, like with my colleague Kristen Holmes the other day quoting Jon Ossoff, um, and how the White House responded to that, which just was bizarre. Um, I, I think that they just, it's, it's the questioning that they don't like in and of itself. It's not, it doesn't even really matter who it's coming from. And that's why I don't respond or react-
- KSKara Swisher
It is always women. It's almost always women, which is interesting.
- KCKaitlan Collins
Uh, well, and that's why I don't respond or react, because I don't-- I truly feel this, and I don't think that it's about me, and I don't want to make it about me, and I want to... You know, I, I'm asking a question because I want an answer to it or because I'm trying to point something out, um, with the question itself. And so I never want to get bogged down in some kind of back and forth or argument or fight that becomes about me, because I want it to stay focused on the question. And truly, that has been my mentality on this for 10 years now, and it's never surprising when this happens to me. It truly isn't anymore. White House Correspondents' Dinner, in the Oval Office, any of these moments. And so, you know, I'm there to do my job.
- KSKara Swisher
Do you think the other reporters should say something? I don't either. I think, I think they should repeat your question, perhaps. That's the only thing I can think of. But-
- KCKaitlan Collins
Yeah, I think following up on questions is important, um, and taking those moments. Or, you know, I remember there was a press conference during the pandemic where the president would come out and do the briefings himself, and Peter Alexander was asking a question, and Trump was going off on Peter about Peter, not about the question. And then when he called on me, I kind of said, "You know, people are sitting at home watching this, trying to figure out, do they send their kids to school? Can they go to work? Is it safe to get these groceries and bring them into their home?" You know, in those early days, it's, no one wants to hear about this attacking a reporter. They want you, who's been speaking with these officials and the doctors, to give them guidance or answer their questions or, like, you know, some kind of, you know, national instruction of what we should be doing in this moment. And I think that's, you know-- I just think it's always important to return to the substance.
- KSKara Swisher
One time, I was on a show, and my son was in the, in the green room, and I, one of the g-guests after me said, "Your mom's really smart, but she should smile more," to my son. Said this to my son. [laughs]
- KCKaitlan Collins
Oh, boy.
- KSKara Swisher
I know. And my son was like, he, he, my son goes "Are you, like, 150 years old? 'Cause that's the stupidest thing I've ever heard." And I was like, "Parenting well done." Like, I, uh, she, I know, I was, like, so proud of him.
- KCKaitlan Collins
Oh my God, that must've been such a-
- KSKara Swisher
Oh
- KCKaitlan Collins
... fulfilling moment for you.
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah, it's the frat bro who did it, too, by the way. Um-
- KCKaitlan Collins
He's like, "Don't talk to my mom like that."
- KSKara Swisher
"Don't talk to my, don't talk about my mom, and women don't, shouldn't have to smile." Um-
- KCKaitlan Collins
Also, anyone who would say that to Kara Swi- Kara Swisher's son, oof.
- KSKara Swisher
Well, yes, I know that, exactly. Talk, uh, to a young reporter who that happens to, explain what's going through your head for just a second, and w- what advice you would give them when that happens.
- KCKaitlan Collins
It's easier to brush off the longer you've done it, because I think, you know, the first time it happens to you, it's obviously jarring. Because, you know, being a reporter, in and of itself, and I, I talk to a lot of young people who are graduating who wanna be in re- in the reporting field, it's, it can be intimidating. Because by nature, what you're doing is you are sometimes, if you're covering things critically or questioning what's happening, which you should be if it's a taxpayer-funded project or official, um, has always been my, my position on this, is you're inherently kind of having this, like, you know, at odds relationship, where you're asking questions they don't really want you to ask, much less they don't wanna answer. And so, you know, as a reporter, you really do kinda have to... You have to accept that you're the one person in that room who they view as, like, the skunk at the garden party, and they don't like what you're saying. And you have to really... You can't do it to be liked, and you can't go in there thinking, "Oh, they're gonna love my question or think it's so smart." Because, one, they're never gonna be happy with what you're asking, I mean, unless you're saying, "Why is this so great? Why is this such a, an amazing idea?"
- KSKara Swisher
"Fantastic hairdo, sir," that kind of thing.
- KCKaitlan Collins
Right, like, people will just never be happy with that. And so I think as a young reporter, you just gotta be ready and, you know, go in there with resolve. And I also think, this is my, always been my thing, being prepared. Knowing what you're talking about, having follow-up questions ready, um, knowing what that person's probably gonna say in response to your question will give you more confidence going to any of those exchanges than anything else. You really, I mean, it's like you gotta build it up yourself, and you will over time, but being prepared always made me feel better. Because I would, you know, no matter where this goes-
- KSKara Swisher
You're ready with a-
- KCKaitlan Collins
I'm, I'm-
- KSKara Swisher
... a follow-up.
- KCKaitlan Collins
Yeah.
- KSKara Swisher
You did that with the Epstein question. You know, you were like, "But this happened." Uh, it's hard, it's still hard. It's a very difficult thing, but I have to say, you have shown incredible poise in doing so. I think most people think that.
- KCKaitlan Collins
Thank you.
- KSKara Swisher
And they can't believe... I, I would, I'd not be able to. If, if... [laughs] I'd be like, "Can you fucking step off, sir?" Like, I would be, I just couldn't do it. That's why I couldn't cover it. I just, I lost my ability to not talk slap back at people. Anyway, I appreciate it. Um, all right, Kaitlan, one more quick break. We'll be back for predictions.
- SPSpeaker
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- KSKara Swisher
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- 55:08 – 1:04:45
Predictions
- KSKara Swisher
Okay, Kaitlan, let's hear a prediction.
- KCKaitlan Collins
Okay. So I was, my first question on this was what should my prediction be in the realm of, and I guess the answer is anything.
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm.
- KCKaitlan Collins
So I can truly pick, uh, pick anything-
- KSKara Swisher
Anything
- KCKaitlan Collins
... that I wanna predict.
- KSKara Swisher
Anything. Aliens showing up, et cetera.
- KCKaitlan Collins
I wish.
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah.
- KCKaitlan Collins
Please hurry up-
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah
- KCKaitlan Collins
... if they're coming.
- KSKara Swisher
I know, right?
- KCKaitlan Collins
Like, we're waiting. [laughs]
- KSKara Swisher
I know.
- KCKaitlan Collins
Um, I think my prediction is gonna be about college football, because we're getting closer and closer to kickoff for Alabama.
- KSKara Swisher
All right.
- KCKaitlan Collins
And, um, it is-
- KSKara Swisher
You are a huge... For people to know, she's an enormous, so is, uh, Tim Cook.
- KCKaitlan Collins
Yes.
- KSKara Swisher
Correct.
- KCKaitlan Collins
Well, he went to Auburn, though, so we're rivals.
- KSKara Swisher
Auburn. Okay. But, but-
- KCKaitlan Collins
Um-
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah, right, rivals
- KCKaitlan Collins
... but, um, not really. I mean, it's Auburn.
- KSKara Swisher
Okay.
- KCKaitlan Collins
Uh, my sister went to Auburn, too. She doesn't like when we say that. And you know what's funny is anytime I wear, like, orange or something on air, which, you know, I live in W- Washington and New York, like, I don't think it's that crazy, someone from Alabama's like, "Why is she wearing Auburn colors tonight, y'all?" [laughs]
- KSKara Swisher
Oh, wow. Okay.
- KCKaitlan Collins
It's just as if that is truly how we think in Alabama.
Episode duration: 1:04:46
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Transcript of episode CHMsWaMMdNE
