Trump Says U.S. Is “In Charge” of Venezuela — But What Happens Next? | Pivot

Kara Swisher 0:00 I wonder if Donald Trump is watching Heated Rivalry. Interesting. (instrumental music) Hi, everyone. This is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Kara Swisher, and welcome to 2026. Scott is still away at, uh, undisclosed location. I can't go into it, but there's so much going on that I've assembled a super group of smart folks to help me cover it all. We've got Don Lemon from The Don Lemon Show, Stephanie Ruhle from MS NOW's The 11th Hour, and Brooke Hamerlin, communication specialist, podcaster, and culture guru

Don Lemon 0:38 Mm-hmm.

Kara Swisher 0:39 ... time, the Pop Culture Mondays newsletter. I want to talk about 2026 going forward so I put this team together that could talk about anything. Welcome everybody. We've got to dig into a bunch of things and each, everyone's gonna sort of focus on Stephanie with business, Don in politics, Brooke with culture, but anybody could weigh in on anything at all. So any thoughts would be great. Um, so President Trump says the U.S. is in qu- is, quote, "in charge of Venezuela" following the capture of Venezuelan President

Kara Swisher 1:06 Nicolás Maduro and his wife over the weekend. As we record, the two are set to be arraigned in a Manhattan federal court on drug trafficking weapons charges. Trump is also putting pressure on Venezuela's acting leader, warning if she doesn't do what's right, she's gonna pay a very big price. I don't know what that means. He's not backing Venezuela's opposition leader, reportedly because he's annoyed she won the Nobel Prize over him and then didn't give it to him. Trump is now threatening Colombia- Colombia, uh, saying, and saying Cuba looks like it's, quote, "ready to fall" and talking about taking Greenland again. I don't know what's in his wheaties. It seems to be part of his Donrow Doctrine as he's coined it, after the Monroe Doctrine for those who know history. Um, it sounds just as idiotic as it seems. Uh, Don, let's start with you. There's a lot to get through, but let's start with the big picture. What is happening over there at the White House and what do you make of all this? Obviously, there's Epstein issues, uh, economy issues, healthcare issues that he may be trying to avoid, but thoughts?

Don Lemon 2:02 Well, I think the obvious is that it's chaos. I mean, it, it's chaotic for the country. It's, it's bad for the country. Um, I think that, I believe, and I think, Kara, maybe you, you have said this as well, and I agree with you if you did sa- say it, is that I, I think that Donald Trump i- has been surprised by how much he's been able to get away with. And every time he gets away with something, it emboldens him to do something else, uh, to do something that's even worse. I was listening to uh, uh, uh um, a podcast over the holidays, and it had quotes from Barack Obama, uh, in there. And everything he said about what was gonna happen in the second, uh, Donald Trump administration really came true. And he said, and I'm, I'm paraphrasing here. He said, "We've seen this movie before, and we know the sequel is always worse." And so the more Donald Trump gets away with, if he is allowed to pardon people and there's not enough uproar about it and nothing happens and he's gonna, um, uh, pick, he's gonna arrest people without due process on the streets or detain them, uh, even if they're American citizens, or he's going to invade sovereign countries. Now I think everyone on this panel and everyone can agree that something needed to be done about Maduro. He's a bad person. But it's just the way that he did it. And, um, look, how can a tyrant... (laughs)

Kara Swisher 3:15 Right.

Don Lemon 3:16 ... arrest or detain-

Kara Swisher 3:17 A tyrant.

Don Lemon 3:17 ... another tyrant?

Kara Swisher 3:19 Right.

Don Lemon 3:19 It doesn't make sense and look-

Kara Swisher 3:20 Rather easily as it turns out, right?

Don Lemon 3:21 Rather easily, and, and just real quickly, what he's doing though I believe is setting a precedent because, um, from, from the, from what he said is that Maduro was this and that, he's a tyrant, and he was a criminal and he did all these things. He'd, um, he tried to overturn an election or he did, he influenced an election, which is the very same things that Donald Trump-

Kara Swisher 3:38 Mm-hmm.

Don Lemon 3:38 ... tried to do. And he's also a criminal.

Kara Swisher 3:40 Yeah.

Don Lemon 3:40 So why-

Kara Swisher 3:40 Which Gavin Newsom pointed out online. Uh, in a-

Don Lemon 3:42 So, so why does Donald Trump get to get away with it and Maduro doesn't? It doesn't make sense.

Kara Swisher 3:48 So Stephanie, I mean-

Don Lemon 3:49 Make it make sense.

Kara Swisher 3:50 Make it make sense, yeah. Make it make sense, Stephanie. Tr-

Don Lemon 3:52 Make it make sense-

Kara Swisher 3:52 Trump wants U.S. oil companies, they've talked about that, into Venezuela-

Don Lemon 3:55 It's all about the oil.

Kara Swisher 3:55 ... to rebuild the industry, and that happened in I think '98. Um, as of this recording, oil stocks are surging and the price of oil is holding steady. Um, talk a little bit about the business implications, because most people feel like it's about oil, but I think it's about a whole lot more than just that. Obviously they've been-

Don Lemon 4:11 Well, what it's not about is drugs.

Kara Swisher 4:14 Mm-hmm.

Don Lemon 4:14 Right. Right? Donald Trump, uh, over a dozen times this weekend said oil. Uh, we heard Marco Rubio say this is about freeing oil for the people. What people?

Kara Swisher 4:24 Mm-hmm.

Don Lemon 4:25 And to me, one of the biggest tells was on Air Force One when Donald Trump was asked, "Did you speak to American oil businesses before?" And he said, "I spoke to them before, and I spoke to them after." To them after, yeah.

Kara Swisher 4:38 Mm-hmm.

Don Lemon 4:38 Okay? Congress was not notified, but businesses were. Yeah. That's how autocracies run. That is not how a democracy runs, and it's important to remember that American oil companies entered into risky deals to develop oil, Venezuelan oil-

Kara Swisher 4:55 Mm-hmm.

Don Lemon 4:55 ... years and years ago.

Kara Swisher 4:56 Yes.

Don Lemon 4:56 Those deals were canceled by the Venezuelan government bef-

Kara Swisher 4:59 By Chávez, Chávez.

Don Lemon 5:00 Yes, correct.

Kara Swisher 5:01 Yeah.

Don Lemon 5:01 Before Maduro.

Kara Swisher 5:02 Mm-hmm.

Don Lemon 5:02 What's happening now, we are now making an aggressive move that are gonna, we're now gonna spend an enormous amount of money-

Kara Swisher 5:11 Mm-hmm.

Don Lemon 5:11 ... and human capital sending American troops down there for U.S., for U.S. oil businesses who, by the way, it's unclear if they actually asked the president for this or not because yes, they're all gonna shuffle down there and figure out how we gonna make a whole lot of money out of this? But remember, it's not like Donald Trump saying today, "We now control Venezuela." They're not gonna turn on the spigots and money's now gonna pour into this country. This will now cost our government hu- billions of dollars, right? To, to, to now go down there and to, to secure it, and now these companies are going to decide are they gonna spend hundreds of billions of dollars or at least $100 billion in the next decade 'cause that's how long it's gonna take, to then get this, uh, oil business opportunity to come to fruition? My question is who are the American people... We know in the last 10 months all that Donald Trump has done-

Stephanie Ruhle 6:08 ... to please the tech community, or all that he's trying to do to please Wall Street. And, and I think this is a quick important reminder. When they say, "Wall Street loves this," I spoke to a bank CEO yesterday that said, "We were positioned for this. We went long Venezuela, we went long PDVSA, which is the state-owned oil and gas company, a week ago." And they were positioned because the market's going up. Investors can sell everything tomorrow, right?

Brooke Hammerling 6:32 Mm-hmm.

Stephanie Ruhle 6:32 Something, uh, uh, uh, there's a, there's a, a, a, a conflict, they can buy today, they can sell tomorrow. They're out. What hurts government and the American people, we can't make giant long-term de- you know, we have to make giant long-term decisions as a government.

Brooke Hammerling 6:47 In, in Venezuela, right.

Stephanie Ruhle 6:47 We don't operate like day traders.

Brooke Hammerling 6:50 Mm-hmm.

Stephanie Ruhle 6:50 And so when Wall Street says, "This works for me today," it works for them today until China tomorrow says, "Oh, hold on. Are you ready for what we're gonna do with Taiwan? If this is Trump's strongman move, giddy up. Look what we could do here."

Brooke Hammerling 7:03 Right, right.

Kara Swisher 7:03 Right, right.

Stephanie Ruhle 7:03 And so that's where Wall Street... And I'll stop talking now.

Kara Swisher 7:05 Okay.

Stephanie Ruhle 7:05 That's where Wall Street is sort of of two minds.

Kara Swisher 7:07 (laughs)

Stephanie Ruhle 7:07 On one hand, they're like, "Money's coming in, this is an opportunity, great, we're gonna unleash this." But on the other, now that there's no rules in the jungle...

Brooke Hammerling 7:16 Absolutely.

Stephanie Ruhle 7:16 Right? Now that we're int- we're breaking international law and, and world norms, what could happen around the world?

Kara Swisher 7:22 Th- the other thing...

Stephanie Ruhle 7:22 And that's what has...

Kara Swisher 7:23 ... is for now. For now. 'Cause he's got a short amount of time here. It's only a couple of months, and then there's Doug. Brooke, you, you know, she was just saying on social, like all the things that are going on, MAGA really reacted in very different ways. Obviously Marjorie Taylor Greene was against it, but a lot of them were-

Stephanie Ruhle 7:37 Yeah, America first. America first.

Kara Swisher 7:38 America first. But some of them weren't. They were, they were, um, there was also a lot of, there was a ton of s- stuff going viral on TikTok, such as Madero's outfit, his 90s outfit. Well, yeah. I mean, let, let's be clear, the, the, (laughs) 'cause, 'cause the kids are driving the culture, the cultural conversation. Maduro is now a fashion influencer. It's unbelievable. That picture of him on the airplane in the n- it w- turns out to be a Nike suit. It's a Nike Tech suit, and he had the, what people were saying were, was like an eye patch, but it was clearly goggles to cover his eyes. But there are so many memes about his fashion. The viral memes have gone crazy. They have him as a fashion icon. I mean, your friend Baratunde posted a picture of himself in the sweatsuit saying like...

Stephanie Ruhle 8:23 In the sweatsuit, yeah.

Kara Swisher 8:23 ... "Hey, I already own this." But it's become...

Brooke Hammerling 8:25 So everything becomes comedy, eh-

Kara Swisher 8:27 It's become comedy.

Brooke Hammerling 8:27 ... which is kind of serious.

Stephanie Ruhle 8:29 And, and it couldn't be less funny.

Kara Swisher 8:30 Correct.

Brooke Hammerling 8:31 Yeah.

Stephanie Ruhle 8:31 Like the core of all of this...

Kara Swisher 8:32 Correct.

Stephanie Ruhle 8:32 Co- right? We can't, while, while we're criticizing what the president did or the way he did it, Maduro is a horrible...

Kara Swisher 8:38 Correct.

Stephanie Ruhle 8:38 ... awful...

Kara Swisher 8:39 Mm-hmm.

Stephanie Ruhle 8:39 ... awful man.

Brooke Hammerling 8:39 Thank you, Stephanie.

Stephanie Ruhle 8:40 Uh, and oppressive leader. And so Venezuelans and Venezuelans Americans are thrilled to see this man out of power, but Kara, you're asking the most important question with now what? But the absurdity of him now being a fashion icon is so, uh, uh, absurd...

Brooke Hammerling 8:54 Typical.

Stephanie Ruhle 8:54 ... in every way.

Brooke Hammerling 8:55 Typical, so-

Kara Swisher 8:55 But that shows you where our culture is going, and I believe it...

Brooke Hammerling 8:58 Right.

Kara Swisher 8:58 ... shows you what the, uh, the, the just the, the grossness that the MAGA folks have i- just injected into society and the culture. And it's also social media as well, so... It's social media. I mean, I, uh, for me... Yeah. ... it's not as much MAGA as it is the kids that are turning, you know, they have, they've created like a DJ set with him.

Brooke Hammerling 9:15 Everything's a joke.

Kara Swisher 9:15 And...

Brooke Hammerling 9:16 Yeah, everything's a joke.

Kara Swisher 9:16 ... he's now become this sort of, you know, Che Guevara kind of person that the kids are like, you know, he's somebody to now...

Stephanie Ruhle 9:24 Which is-

Kara Swisher 9:24 ... look up to.

Brooke Hammerling 9:24 Insane.

Stephanie Ruhle 9:25 Don, I think it's way more TikTok nation than it is MAGA.

Kara Swisher 9:28 Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Stephanie Ruhle 9:29 And this is gonna be so challenging for America first MAGA. Like...

Kara Swisher 9:32 (laughs)

Stephanie Ruhle 9:33 ... I'm thinking about my mother, Louise Rule, who always argues, like, "I'm sorry, Stephanie, we can't be thinking about foreign policy."

Kara Swisher 9:39 Right.

Stephanie Ruhle 9:39 "There's kids in West Virginia who can't even go to a good school."

Kara Swisher 9:42 Yeah. Thank you for that, that, yeah.

Stephanie Ruhle 9:43 People who live in West Virginia aren't thinking... Certainly, or, or, or on the, you know... That original MAGA base who says, "I'm a forgotten American," is not being remembered when it comes to what we're doing with our future.

Kara Swisher 9:54 Yeah. Well, splitting. Well, MAGA is morphing right now. Don't, don't forget that MAGA...

Brooke Hammerling 9:58 Right. Splitting.

Kara Swisher 9:58 ... that TikTok is becoming MAGA. Remember who's gonna...

Brooke Hammerling 10:01 Right.

Kara Swisher 10:01 ... take over the algorithm of TikTok. That's gonna be...

Brooke Hammerling 10:03 Right.

Kara Swisher 10:03 ... the Ellisons. They are MAGA.

Brooke Hammerling 10:05 Well, sort of. Yeah.

Kara Swisher 10:05 If you are on Tik... Yeah. Well, they're gonna have...

Brooke Hammerling 10:07 Well, they, Oracle will own 15%. Let me be clear, so...

Kara Swisher 10:10 Okay. So, but, but let me say, if you are on TikTok and y- if you, and if you are, you've noticed that your algorithm has changed. And if you are, uh, there's more pro-MAGA stuff that gets elevated than stuff that is anti-MAGA, or that just tells the truth about Donald Trump. So TikTok, I believe, from my experience with TikTok, that it is MAGA. It is MAGA. So it's one and the same. So last question for, for, for, for you, Don, uh, and maybe Stephanie you can add to it, is what is, um, what does Congress do? They come back this week, right? At some point. Um, what happens here? What do they do? Because they've been rather quiet about, you know, uh, Ruby was all over the, all over the TV, all over the place talking about, you know, justifications which are different than Donald Trump's just- but they were talking it up, that's for sure. So what happens next? Well, I think, uh, Congress will make a lot of noise and then do nothing, as they always do, sadly. I mean, they need to do more. They could start, uh, some sort of procedure. They can st- do hearings. They can demand something. Actually, you know, Chuck Schumer, you know, actually said the F bomb. Well, that, you know... Okay. ... to hear that coming out of Chuck Schumer's mouth... But he should have been, he should have had that energy a long time ago. Years ago. He should have had this en-

Brooke Hammerling 11:19 (laughs)

Kara Swisher 11:19 Years ago, before Roe was overturned. You know what I mean?

Stephanie Ruhle 11:23 Right.

Kara Swisher 11:23 Before (laughs) Donald Trump...

Stephanie Ruhle 11:24 Right.

Kara Swisher 11:24 ... got elected the second time. They should have had the balls, as you said, to do something. And they're not. So I blame both the Democrats and the Republicans. I mean, obviously the Republicans are... So, De- Stephanie, what's next from your perspective? Uh, well, hold on one second. I think the Republicans are...

Stephanie Ruhle 11:35 Well, maybe it's also the problem because if women were in charge, we know how to multitask.

Kara Swisher 11:38 Well, I'll let you go with that.

Stephanie Ruhle 11:39 And, and when you think about... We know how to multitask.

Kara Swisher 11:41 (laughs)

Stephanie Ruhle 11:41 And, and while Venezuela is hugely important, it's gonna occupy Congress, it's not occupying the daily lives of the American people. And the American people are about to wrestle with soaring healthcare costs, affordability problems, and we've got c- I'm not, I'm certainly not gonna say a labor crisis by any means, but we've got a te- uh, uh, a tenuous labor situation, uh, h- happening in this country right now. So, so lawmakers are gonna go back. They've gotta deal with Venezuela, the amount of effort and time and money we're gonna spend there, and then the, the issues facing American people's daily lives, which are the reason Donald Trump's poll numbers were getting lower and lower in the months leading into year's end.

Kara Swisher 12:23 And sl- step, finally, Brooke, what's the next viral thing besides this ridiculous Maduro outfit thing?

Brooke Hammerling 12:27 I mean, eh, eh, I think we're gonna see more of the ridiculousness. I think we're gonna see, like, a, like, the, right now we're seeing the fact that he's in the prison that P. Diddy was in, and Luigi.

Stephanie Ruhle 12:38 But then here's the question, Kara. Two weeks from now in ... Like, truly, two weeks from now in Davos, when every world leader and business leader all gets together and talks about, "How are we gonna collaborate and make the world better and stronger together?" W- what's gonna be the theme this year? Strong man who done it? Uh, uh ... Yeah. Yeah.

Kara Swisher 12:58 Well, what is it? You're going?

Stephanie Ruhle 13:00 I am not.

Brooke Hammerling 13:00 I can't wait to see what Jeff Bezos wears, 'cause that's what we all care about with this-

Kara Swisher 13:04 All right. Moving on. (laughs)

Stephanie Ruhle 13:06 ... tabloidized.

Don Lemon 13:06 I honestly think the people who attend Davos are, are sort of in on it, you know. Eh, they want the money.

Kara Swisher 13:11 Yeah.

Don Lemon 13:11 So yeah, I don't think there's gonna be a theme or, you know. It, it's over.

Stephanie Ruhle 13:14 Okay. That's a great point because-

Don Lemon 13:16 Yeah.

Stephanie Ruhle 13:16 But, but, but ... Okay, but here's the problem then, Don. The idea of Davos is supposed to be about thoughtful leadership.

Brooke Hammerling 13:24 Yes. Yes.

Don Lemon 13:24 True.

Stephanie Ruhle 13:24 And if where we are right now with our business and political leaders is, "If you can't beat them, join them. Let me get in on the hustle," then I guess that's my question. Every year it's, "What is the Davos man?" Well, what the heck is he if he's just somebody who's in on the crypto hustle?

Don Lemon 13:38 I think they're gonna sound a lot like Donald Trump on Air Force One, with Lindsey Graham standing next to him about to drop to his knees and, you know, shine his shoes or whatever he's gonna do.

Kara Swisher 13:47 (laughs) Whatever.

Don Lemon 13:47 They said it out loud. They said this was-

Stephanie Ruhle 13:49 Shine his shoes?

Kara Swisher 13:49 Oh.

Stephanie Ruhle 13:49 Oh, Don.

Don Lemon 13:49 They said this is about oil.

Kara Swisher 13:51 Stop it.

Don Lemon 13:51 They said ... Donald Trump said this is about oil, and Lindsey Graham said, "With all of the deals and all this happening, we're gonna become more prosperous with all of these new d-"

Kara Swisher 14:00 Yeah.

Don Lemon 14:01 That- so-

Kara Swisher 14:01 Wow.

Don Lemon 14:01 That's what it's about, and that's what Davos is gonna be about. That's it.

Kara Swisher 14:04 Yeah. Is Davos relevant, Stephanie?

Stephanie Ruhle 14:05 Okay then, when are we gonna talk about debt and deficits?

Kara Swisher 14:08 Yeah.

Stephanie Ruhle 14:08 If we're gonna become more prosperous this way, it's going to cost us-

Kara Swisher 14:12 Correct.

Stephanie Ruhle 14:12 ... an enormous amount of money.

Kara Swisher 14:14 Mm-hmm. Which you've noted.

Stephanie Ruhle 14:14 So in Davos, where the biggest investors and bond daddies go, what do they think about this kind of spending?

Kara Swisher 14:20 All right. Let's go on a quick break. When we come back, we'll talk about what a buzzy low-budget Canadian show means for the future of entertainment. I know you guys love this one. I'm back with Don Lemon, Stephanie Ruhle, and Brooke Hammerling. Now we're gonna get into something a little

Kara Swisher 14:33 lighter. We have, uh, all the time to take a lot ... Uh, we had a lot of time to take in more TV shows and movies over the holiday break. Um, uh, let's talk about the breakout star of the past few weeks, Heated Rivalry, which is your favorite thing. Um, also Don's apparently. Uh, Stephanie, you can weigh in too. Uh, explain v- very briefly the cultural impact of the show, and talk what it means from a business perspective. This was a low-budget Canadian production, not unlike KPop Demon Hunter. Same thing.

Brooke Hammerling 14:59 Right. Right.

Kara Swisher 15:00 Canadian and American.

Brooke Hammerling 15:00 Well, Stephanie said earlier what was the occupying the minds of American people. This is what's occupying the minds of American people, which is Heated Rivalry, a gay hockey drama series coming out of Canada. A lot of people think it's HBO because it's been distributed by HBO, but it was made by this streaming-

Kara Swisher 15:18 Here in this country. Yeah.

Brooke Hammerling 15:19 Yeah, in the US. It's dis- ... It was made by this streaming platform in Canada called, uh, Crave. And it costs three to five million an episode. Uh, w- compare that to Stranger Things, which I think was like 50 million an episode.

Kara Swisher 15:32 Just had its finale, yeah.

Brooke Hammerling 15:34 And what is, what is dominating the conversation? Right now, it's heated rivalry in every aspect. I mean, people are j- ... Like, Don, you've re-watched it, right? This is a phenomenon. People are re-watching it. People are not just watching the series.

Don Lemon 15:48 As the expert, as the expert gay man on this (laughs) , on the panel-

Brooke Hammerling 15:51 No, but you know what's so interesting?

Don Lemon 15:51 ... I have to say, but it's not just. That's when you said it was a gay story. It's actually a love story.

Kara Swisher 15:56 Yes, straight people.

Brooke Hammerling 15:56 It's a love story.

Don Lemon 15:57 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 15:57 Yes.

Brooke Hammerling 15:57 It is a love story, but people are calling it the gay hockey show. But-

Don Lemon 16:00 Yeah.

Stephanie Ruhle 16:00 But it is sex heavy. It is sex heavy.

Brooke Hammerling 16:02 It is, but the most important episode of that, Episode 5, had no sex. And what you're seeing, I think it's a really interesting thing. I mean, first of all, do you know that f- ... According to Pornhub, 47% of viewers of gay porn are straight women.

Kara Swisher 16:17 Right.

Stephanie Ruhle 16:18 Yeah.

Brooke Hammerling 16:18 So that's-

Kara Swisher 16:19 Can't believe it.

Brooke Hammerling 16:19 You know, that's just the way it is.

Don Lemon 16:20 And straight women are talking about this show. Straight women love this show. But Brooke, let me, let me, let me ... I wanna challenge you on this. Is it sex heavy, or is it just people ... Is it just that people are not used to seeing gay sex, right? Because I've seen, I've seen straight shows that have lots of sex, more sex than this show, and no one says it's sex heavy. It's just that they're, they're maybe not used to seeing gay men being intimate on screen in, in that way.

Brooke Hammerling 16:46 I think Kara's favorite show, Hunting Wives, walked so, so that these boys could run. (laughs)

Kara Swisher 16:52 That was the, that was the amuse-bouche to this, right?

Stephanie Ruhle 16:56 My experience in watching Hunting Wives-

Brooke Hammerling 16:58 Yeah.

Stephanie Ruhle 16:58 Where I would leave, like, my family room and watch it in a private area.

Brooke Hammerling 17:03 (laughs)

Don Lemon 17:03 (laughs)

Stephanie Ruhle 17:03 I had the same experience.

Kara Swisher 17:06 Why?

Stephanie Ruhle 17:06 Because I have kids running around my house, right?

Brooke Hammerling 17:09 Yeah, I mean, yeah, you had male anathromy going down.

Don Lemon 17:11 I was watching Heated Rivalry on the plane last night, and I was like-

Stephanie Ruhle 17:14 Oh, oh my God.

Brooke Hammerling 17:15 Well, so wait.

Stephanie Ruhle 17:16 You know what it is?

Kara Swisher 17:17 Oh, no.

Stephanie Ruhle 17:17 Wait, you know what it is?

Kara Swisher 17:18 Near that side, Don.

Stephanie Ruhle 17:18 When I say sex heavy? Well, no, when there's the presence o- o- ... When you're aware that oral sex is taking place-

Kara Swisher 17:25 Yeah.

Stephanie Ruhle 17:26 ... and you have children in your house.

Kara Swisher 17:27 Uh-huh.

Don Lemon 17:28 Yeah.

Stephanie Ruhle 17:28 Like, like, that's sex heavy TV for me.

Kara Swisher 17:30 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Stephanie Ruhle 17:31 That, like, we've established regular missionary sex happens on TV, and both those shows feature a different flavor.

Brooke Hammerling 17:37 Yeah, so, so let me just jump in.

Don Lemon 17:40 Well, Brooke-

Kara Swisher 17:40 Well, talk about the two of them together because, you know, he, uh, uh, Hunting Wives is coming back for a second season. Heated Rivalry i- is gonna get another one.

Brooke Hammerling 17:47 Has two more seasons.

Kara Swisher 17:48 Two more seasons.

Brooke Hammerling 17:48 So here's the thing. I think it's you have a bunch of unknowns, and we're also watching in particular ... I mean, the, there are three main guys, which are Connor Story, who plays Ilya, who speaks ... If you watch Russian Tok, which is TikTok with Russians, they lose ... They're losing their minds over his accent and his Russian. When not just his accent speaking English, but his Russian. This is a Texan, born and raised, who started taking Russian lessons a week before filming. It's phenomenal. You're watching, uh, Connor Story become a star, and right before our eyes, a star is born. We hope that fame doesn't corrupt him. Hudson Williams-

Don Lemon 18:22 Hudson Williams too.

Brooke Hammerling 18:22 Who is, plays, uh, Shane Hollander, is an unknown that is just having an unbelievable moment. And then the more, the most known, I loved him in Schitt's Creek, was Francois Arnaud-

Don Lemon 18:31 Francois Arnaud, yeah.

Brooke Hammerling 18:33 Who plays Scott, uh, Hunter. And he is the one who had that pivotal, pivotal episode, which is Episode 5, which has zero sex. So I think the, they bring you in. It's sexy, it's-

Kara Swisher 18:44 It's the story.

Brooke Hammerling 18:44 It's-

Kara Swisher 18:45 It's sexy and story. Uh, let, let me ... Stephanie, is Da-

Don Lemon 18:48 ... Brooke just brought up this idea of unknowns and lower costs and stuff like that. Talk a little bit about this from a, like, because right now, the costs of Hollywood are massive. And them, sometimes they pay off. Look, Avatar is killing it at the box office, especially abroad. Um, but there's a lot of these, something when I interviewed Ted Sarandos years ago, he was like, "There's no, there's only gonna be the big ones and the little ones, and the middle is gone."

Stephanie Ruhle 19:11 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. But that's why the beauty of this show is the same stroke of beauty of independent media, right? Before independent media existed, when there was just giant pillars, right? When there was three television networks, when there was three papers of note, when there was three movie studios, you had to work your way up and be part of this giant conglomerate and marketing machine, and that's the only way that content could be distributed. Now if you make something magical, it can find legs, it can find a home. And, and that's sort of the beauty of, right, we talk so much about the, the problems with social media and all the, you know, the, the bad actors and so on and so forth. But, but when you now have the system broken and these unknowns can create something on a small platform and then it gets distributed, to me, like, that's extraordinary. And that's something that couldn't have happened decades ago, eh, back when there were, you know, three studio heads with their arms, with their arms folded running Hollywood.

Don Lemon 20:11 Yeah.

Stephanie Ruhle 20:11 There were breakouts.

Don Lemon 20:12 What, what she said-

Stephanie Ruhle 20:12 There were breakouts.

Don Lemon 20:12 What she said, Steph-

Stephanie Ruhle 20:13 Yes. What's absurd-

Don Lemon 20:14 Uh, uh, what she said, Kara-

Stephanie Ruhle 20:15 Go ahead, Don.

Don Lemon 20:16 Kara, look. I wanna say, remember when we had this conversation we talked about, you know, some of the things you see on independent media and independent journalists and podcasts-

Stephanie Ruhle 20:24 Mm-hmm.

Don Lemon 20:24 Um, you know, it, it's, it's done by a, uh, a skeleton crew, what you would-

Stephanie Ruhle 20:28 Right.

Don Lemon 20:28 ... call for broadcast.

Stephanie Ruhle 20:29 Mm-hmm.

Don Lemon 20:29 And you walk into a big broadcast studio office and you go, "What are all these people doing here?"

Stephanie Ruhle 20:34 Yeah.

Don Lemon 20:34 And so Stephanie is right. This is where the media is going. There will be big breakthroughs. There's gonna be the big guys and then, I still consider myself a, a little guy. There's gonna be a little guy like me. Um, but this is where it's going, and I think it's actually fantastic because a, a, something that's small can have lift, as you say. And something that's big where it's overthought like what Stephanie says with these guys and people sitting around going, "It's gotta go through this," or whatever. That's not where we are anymore. We're not there anymore.

Stephanie Ruhle 21:03 Mm-hmm.

Don Lemon 21:03 People want it a little messy-

Stephanie Ruhle 21:05 Well, I think it's both, Don.

Don Lemon 21:05 ... and authentic. Yeah, I ag- I'm agreeing.

Stephanie Ruhle 21:07 I, I think we're in a transition period.

Don Lemon 21:08 Yeah, yeah. I agree.

Stephanie Ruhle 21:08 And I think there's space for both, and I think that's what's awesome about it. What do you, what do you guys think? What I'm afraid, and so I'd love your thoughts, is that with the success and the popularity, I mean, it's become this ult- a cultural zeitgeist. You have Stephen Colbert talking about he was a bossy bottom. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. You had Jeff Goldblum asked last night on the red carpet at the awards show whether or not he wants to be at the cottage.

Don Lemon 21:27 You bring up a good point. This is gonna change society, I believe, like Will and Grace did. I think that's gonna-

Stephanie Ruhle 21:31 But what happens if it changes the show where they're like, "Oh, now that we're so popular, we're gonna, instead of three to five million, we're gonna go to 20 to 30 million"? That, I feel, will change the heartbeat of the show. Well, it's only got a short ... At least all these shows now have such a shorter life, right? But if it, if the budgets go triple, right? These k- kids are now huge celebrities- Or, or- Right? It doesn't- Well, that happened with Glee. It happens with lots of things. Or maybe the example that you're pointing to is remember the first season of Nobody Wants This? Yes. Exactly. Okay? Nobody expected it. You loved every minute of it. It was like, "What is this? It's touching me. It's connecting with me." And then the second season- Was an ad. ... which had, which had so much hype- It was branding. ... had s- had so much branding and product placement- Ugh. Hated it. All the people like, all the women like me who felt that show, who were connected to that show- Correct. ... then felt like you were being sold an Airbnb experience. And Dunkin' Donuts. And I felt- It was awful. And I felt like, uh, I, I, I, I felt like they had this magic, and it's still ... I'm not knocking the show, but they lost their magic of being this, "We're just gonna make this thing." Nobody Wants This, literally the title. Nobody Wants This, and We're Just Gonna Make It. I totally agree. And it connected with everybody. And then when season two came and they product placed the hell out of it, there was a lot more like, "I'm, uh, you know what? I'm not sure." Whi- which is the difficulty of having, you know, the long timelines, especially with the streamers. Like, I'm thinking of Pluribus, another popular show. Oh, for God's sakes. It, it is. Listen, I, Pluribus, you know, just shut ... No. It is popular.

Don Lemon 22:55 Yeah, Kara.

Stephanie Ruhle 22:55 End it. Stop. Are you trying to sell this show on me? Kara, stop.

Don Lemon 22:59 Oh my gosh.

Stephanie Ruhle 22:59 Kara, would you stop? It's literally- I shall not ... It won the ... What did it win?

Don Lemon 23:01 (laughs)

Stephanie Ruhle 23:01 It doesn't matter. What did it win the awards last night? It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter what five people ... I love the show but you cannot put it in the same breath as heated rivalry in terms of cultural breakouts. No. You're wrong. I shall not put it in the same breath. I am not putting- You cannot. But it is. It is not.

Don Lemon 23:11 Can I jump in here please?

Stephanie Ruhle 23:13 It is. It is. It is erroneous.

Don Lemon 23:13 Can I jump in here and tell you I don't think it's going to change because Jacob Tierney who you know, Brooke, is the, he's the Canadian creator of this.

Stephanie Ruhle 23:21 Mm-hmm.

Don Lemon 23:21 It's adapt- they're, they're adapting a book. They have to stay somewhat true-

Stephanie Ruhle 23:25 A book written by a woman.

Don Lemon 23:25 ... to the book. A book written by a woman.

Stephanie Ruhle 23:27 Yeah, right.

Don Lemon 23:27 And, uh, so and, and I've been watching him 'cause I'm obsessed. My husband's like, "You're obsessed with this." And so I think that Jacob Tierney knows that it cannot change. It's gotta, it's gotta be authentic, and it's gotta stay grounded. But I, here's what, I just wanna say this one thing. You know how Will and Grace changed the culture that made it okay for, you know, gay people to kiss, uh, on TV or just to have gay plot lines on television. Uh, I believe that this is doing the same thing to the culture because as Brooke mentioned, straight guys are talking about it. Hockey podcasts, um, are, are talk- podcasters are talking about it. People who do sports-

Stephanie Ruhle 24:01 Empty Netters, baby.

Don Lemon 24:02 They're talking about it. Yeah.

Stephanie Ruhle 24:03 Mm-hmm.

Don Lemon 24:03 And so...

Stephanie Ruhle 24:04 The Empty Netters.

Don Lemon 24:05 Empty Netters. Empty Netters.

Stephanie Ruhle 24:05 It's a podcast with a bunch of white boys who are sports hockey fanatics.

Don Lemon 24:10 And they're obsessed.

Stephanie Ruhle 24:11 They're the last thing you would expect-

Don Lemon 24:13 They're crying.

Stephanie Ruhle 24:13 They are crying. They, it's the biggest green flag of men I've ever seen. I've never been attracted to people like that. Okay. I will make a note- Oh, can I say one thing, Kara? Go ahead and then I will. Can I, can I tell you a story? Yeah. Uh, yes. Go ahead. Please. Good. Okay. I, I, okay. I'm gonna tell you a story. Brooke's gonna get it in a second. So I don't have a sports background- Yeah. ... whatsoever. Yeah. When I was a senior in college, I went to Mardi Gras in New Orleans. And a boy took me out to a dinner at then senior in college's house, Peyton Manning. It was a big di- ... I, I, at the time, I didn't even know who he was. He was about to win the Heisman right after Mardi Gras ended. I'm sitting at a long, long, long dinner table of all of these Ole Miss football players. I know nothing about Ole Miss. I know nothing about college football. But looking at a table of 45 boys, I say to the guy next to me, "What is it like? What does the mix go with, you know, like-... uh, gay players on the team and straight players on the team.

Don Lemon 25:02 (laughs)

Brooke Hammerling 25:03 Silence.

Stephanie Ruhle 25:04 Okay, this question came because I'm a girl who doesn't know sports, but I know math.

Brooke Hammerling 25:09 Yeah.

Stephanie Ruhle 25:09 And probability and statistics would tell you-

Brooke Hammerling 25:11 Yes.

Stephanie Ruhle 25:11 ... when dozens and dozens and dozens and dozens of men are in a group, there's some gay ones in there.

Brooke Hammerling 25:17 Right.

Stephanie Ruhle 25:17 When I asked this question at this dinner at Peyton Manning's house in 19- ... or his parents' house in 1997, my date practically threw me in the bayou, flipped the table-

Brooke Hammerling 25:26 Were you escorted out, right? Yeah. Uh-huh.

Stephanie Ruhle 25:29 Oh, for real. For real.

Brooke Hammerling 25:29 Yeah.

Stephanie Ruhle 25:29 I mean, a guy hit the table boldly, "What? Are you kidding me?"

Brooke Hammerling 25:34 (laughs)

Stephanie Ruhle 25:34 I mean, like, it was-

Brooke Hammerling 25:35 (laughs)

Stephanie Ruhle 25:35 I was on the fast train back to Jersey.

Brooke Hammerling 25:37 Yeah.

Stephanie Ruhle 25:38 And here we are 30 years later.

Brooke Hammerling 25:39 Yeah.

Stephanie Ruhle 25:40 And nobody's saying-

Brooke Hammerling 25:41 Let me say-

Stephanie Ruhle 25:42 ... "Oh, you play hockey, you're gay."

Brooke Hammerling 25:43 Yeah.

Stephanie Ruhle 25:43 It's probability and statistics.

Brooke Hammerling 25:45 Let me say this.

Stephanie Ruhle 25:45 There's gonna be some gay guys on the team.

Brooke Hammerling 25:47 That's never an issue for women's sports.

Stephanie Ruhle 25:49 (laughs)

Brooke Hammerling 25:49 Um, "Who's straight here?" is what we say.

Don Lemon 25:51 (laughs)

Brooke Hammerling 25:51 But may I point something out, Brooke, erroneous as you think I am?

Stephanie Ruhle 25:54 Uh, for God's sake.

Brooke Hammerling 25:54 Who among us has been invited to do a cameo on Heated Rivalry?

Stephanie Ruhle 25:58 Oh, my ... Sh- Kara-

Brooke Hammerling 25:59 Kara Swisher!

Don Lemon 26:00 No way! Kara, were you?

Brooke Hammerling 26:04 Yep. And are you doing it?

Stephanie Ruhle 26:05 You motherpucker.

Brooke Hammerling 26:06 Yep. You are the total motherfucker. I was, by the way, a puck bunny when I was in high school and college.

Stephanie Ruhle 26:10 I do all the cameos, my friend. I am, y-

Brooke Hammerling 26:11 I know, you're, you're-

Stephanie Ruhle 26:12 What's a puck bunny? Okay.

Brooke Hammerling 26:15 It's, you know, I grew up-

Stephanie Ruhle 26:16 Is that like a lacrostitute? (laughs)

Brooke Hammerling 26:19 (laughs)

Don Lemon 26:19 Is that like a groupie? Is that a groupie, a puck groupie?

Brooke Hammerling 26:21 It's a groupie of hockey players. Yeah, a puck bunny.

Don Lemon 26:23 Yeah.

Brooke Hammerling 26:23 No you weren't. No you weren't.

Stephanie Ruhle 26:24 Yeah, it was for the Rangers. I grew up in Rye. That's where the Rangers were. We were puck bunnies, and our parents were like, "If you can get us Ranger tickets, have fun." Wow, puck you.

Brooke Hammerling 26:34 (laughs)

Stephanie Ruhle 26:35 (laughs)

Don Lemon 26:35 Brooke, can I ask you, do you like, um, uh, Illya and what's his name? What can you remember?

Brooke Hammerling 26:41 Yeah, so I'm- I love all of them, so-

Don Lemon 26:42 What, what love story do you like more? Do you like Illya or do you, do you like Scott?

Brooke Hammerling 26:46 Well, I was a Scott Hunter gr- ... 'Cause that scene- ... But I don't love Scott's boyfriend. I'm just gonna be honest. He's like a short king, he's great, but he's not my guy. But Illya-

Don Lemon 26:53 Really?

Brooke Hammerling 26:54 ... and, and Shane I'm obsessed with.

Don Lemon 26:57 And Shane.

Brooke Hammerling 26:57 But Illya, I mean, I ... Connor's story, there's this video of him that he did with Interview magazine where he's wearing a, uh, you know, a Gold's Gym T-shirt and he's lip syncing to Madonna's Like A Prayer.

Stephanie Ruhle 27:09 Yes, yes.

Brooke Hammerling 27:09 And he does this-

Don Lemon 27:10 Yeah, and he pours water all over him.

Stephanie Ruhle 27:10 I love all of them. (laughs)

Brooke Hammerling 27:11 And he ... Well, no, that's a different one, but this is the one where he does this-

Don Lemon 27:15 That's another one?

Brooke Hammerling 27:15 Yeah, he's ... A- anyway, he's d- he's ... It's very ... I, I, I can't explain it, but this thing has gone so viral. They're showing it in nightclubs.

Stephanie Ruhle 27:22 Yes. Everybody's looking.

Brooke Hammerling 27:23 DJs are interjecting the, the video.

Don Lemon 27:26 Sports bars.

Brooke Hammerling 27:27 Sports bars, yeah.

Stephanie Ruhle 27:27 Sports bars, yeah.

Brooke Hammerling 27:27 They're showing it. They're, they're ... There's a very funny TikTok that's in my-

Stephanie Ruhle 27:30 It's part of the culture, yep.

Brooke Hammerling 27:30 ... in newsletter this week that is these two women that are saying like, "Dinner and a movie," and their girlfriends eating Chinese food out of- ... With their chopsticks on the floor watching this 30-second clip over and over again.

Stephanie Ruhle 27:41 Yep, it's a big deal. It's a big deal. So this all comes together-

Don Lemon 27:42 I wonder if Tuna melts are gonna make a comeback because of this, Brooke.

Brooke Hammerling 27:46 I ... Okay. All right, we're stopping now.

Stephanie Ruhle 27:48 They never left.

Brooke Hammerling 27:48 Let me just say, I wonder if-

Stephanie Ruhle 27:49 When did they go? That's my favorite.

Don Lemon 27:50 I wonder if Donald Trump is watching Heated Rivalry.

Brooke Hammerling 27:52 You know that mag-

Don Lemon 27:53 (laughs)

Brooke Hammerling 27:54 Th- y- I could just imagine the conversation that, like, they brought to him.

Stephanie Ruhle 27:57 You know Lindsey Graham is watching it.

Brooke Hammerling 27:59 Oh, god.

Don Lemon 27:59 There's so many gays in MAGA and Republicans.

Stephanie Ruhle 28:01 Allegedly.

Don Lemon 28:01 Of course they're watching it.

Stephanie Ruhle 28:02 Allegedly. Allegedly.

Brooke Hammerling 28:04 All right.

Don Lemon 28:04 Allegedly.

Stephanie Ruhle 28:04 (laughs)

Brooke Hammerling 28:04 Uh, let's go on a quick break. And when we come back, I wanna know what you all think about the biggest stories of 2026.

Brooke Hammerling 28:11 Don, Stephanie, Brooke, we're back. Moving along, it's a new year. I want, uh, to know what each of you think will be the biggest stories of 2026. I want you to spin it forward. Don, you'll start. Politics or whatever. I d- Whatever you think. But let's ... Uh, politics would be great, but whatever you think is the biggest story going forward.

Don Lemon 28:27 Well, I think the biggest story going forward is gonna be the fracturing of MAGA. It's already started. The MAGA media, uh, starting with the Megyn Kellys and the Candace Owens and the Benny Johnsons of the world.

Brooke Hammerling 28:39 Yeah, they're beefing.

Don Lemon 28:39 I ... Yeah, they're beefing, and I think that that is, that is the beginning of the end of MAGA. That's what I believe the biggest story is going to be moving forward.

Brooke Hammerling 28:46 Yeah, okay. All right.

Stephanie Ruhle 28:47 Okay, for me, you know, I'm gonna pick the economy because at the end of the day, I think how people vote i- i- i- is truly rooted in their pocketbook and, and how they live. And what's interesting is the economy is growing, but its growth is fragile, and it's really in the palm of Trump's hands. Like, whether the economy builds or weakens depends entirely on Trump's de-globalization agenda, right? Tariffs, mass deportations. Um, so, so I just think where we go in this K-shaped economy, right? Where the rich have gotten richer and the poor have gotten poorer, and we have ... A- and that's only getting exaggerated this year. Where we're headed, um, is, is where I'm laser beam focused, and it's extr-

Don Lemon 29:31 Is it really growing or is it AstroTurf? That's why ... 'Cause that K thing, I'm like, "I don't ... Is that growth real?" Because people are a lot poorer, and you need more people being able to buy things than fewer people being able to buy them. So I don't know if that-

Stephanie Ruhle 29:46 Yes, but when you look at-

Brooke Hammerling 29:47 Well, he could be goosing it with Venezuela. He could be-

Stephanie Ruhle 29:49 ... big business-

Brooke Hammerling 29:50 There's ways to goose it, right? To goose the economy.

Stephanie Ruhle 29:53 Th- the economy is certainly being goosed. We could have more federal intervention. We could have more farm aid bills of the like. But remember, when you're facing less and less regulation in your business-

Brooke Hammerling 30:04 Mm-hmm.

Stephanie Ruhle 30:04 ... which is what we're facing right now, you're going to see businesses spend and grow. The thing that's standing in the way is tariffs.

Brooke Hammerling 30:11 Mm-hmm.

Stephanie Ruhle 30:11 And Trump is f- fat right, fat in the middle of it.

Brooke Hammerling 30:14 Mm-hmm.

Stephanie Ruhle 30:14 But you're right. Is it just AstroTurf? Because Kara talks about this all the time. When you look under the magnificent seven, under those big giant tech companies that aren't getting hurt, they're h- being helped by AI, that aren't getting hurt by mass deportations. When you look under there, lots of those companies are struggling. And if consumers, um, don't have the money to spend or the money that they're-

Brooke Hammerling 30:35 Correct.

Stephanie Ruhle 30:35 ... spending doesn't go so far-

Brooke Hammerling 30:36 It's only rich consumers, right?

Stephanie Ruhle 30:37 So, so that's my point is it's a fragile economy.

Don Lemon 30:40 Yep.

Stephanie Ruhle 30:40 And the person who has his hands on the steering wheel is Donald Trump, and let's see what he does.

Brooke Hammerling 30:45 So what do you, what do you imagine being the best case for him and the worst?

Stephanie Ruhle 30:49 I actually think the best case for him would be if the tariffs were to be ruled, uh, illegal. That would be his most graceful exit. He could say, "I wanted to make America great. I wanted to bring manufacturing back, but they wouldn't let me." Companies would say, "Great. We're not having to face these tariffs."... to Happy Days are here again. I don't think that's going to happen, or it's going to be super messy. We'll soon find out, right? Trump is the first to say the market is the economy-

Brooke Hammerling 31:17 Mm-hmm.

Stephanie Ruhle 31:17 It's not.

Brooke Hammerling 31:17 It's not.

Stephanie Ruhle 31:17 The market has done very well. It could do even better. But under that, what is the world gonna look like-

Brooke Hammerling 31:23 You know, but I believe-

Stephanie Ruhle 31:23 ... with kids coming out of college that can't get jobs, when our healthcare costs-

Brooke Hammerling 31:25 Let me interject-

Stephanie Ruhle 31:26 ... are spiraling?

Brooke Hammerling 31:27 ... Dawn, just for a second. One of the things is, we were looking for pajamas yesterday for something, and one of the things that's noticeable is there's fewer items, harder to find, and more expensive. Even if you're, you know ... It was kind of no- it's noticeable in every store now. They- Was this online or in real life? No, it was offline. It was, it was offline.

Stephanie Ruhle 31:44 Yeah, well, that- But what's noticeable, Kara-

Brooke Hammerling 31:46 But I'm talking, that's how most people sh- shop.

Stephanie Ruhle 31:47 But what's noticeable is-

Brooke Hammerling 31:49 The prices.

Stephanie Ruhle 31:50 ... the big have gotten bigger and the small are getting smaller.

Brooke Hammerling 31:52 Yeah.

Stephanie Ruhle 31:52 Small and biz-sized businesses could not survive tariffs.

Brooke Hammerling 31:55 Yeah.

Stephanie Ruhle 31:56 If you're a giant company, you could front-load your inventory-

Brooke Hammerling 31:58 That's what I was thinking, yeah.

Stephanie Ruhle 31:59 ... you could keep costs down. If you're a small business in Georgetown and you're selling toys and books and pajamas-

Brooke Hammerling 32:05 Right.

Stephanie Ruhle 32:05 ... you can't weather storms like this.

Brooke Hammerling 32:07 Yeah, this was Target &amap;; this was Target &amap;.

Don Lemon 32:08 I, can I, I just want to say this. I think the best-case scenario for him would to be to completely fail with the economy because Donald Trump does not like to admit that he is wrong. And so if the economy goes off of a cliff, that will be the biggest wake-up call. It's like an, it's like an addict. You can't ... They have-

Brooke Hammerling 32:24 Hm.

Don Lemon 32:24 ... to hit rock bottom before they make a change, and I think Donald Trump-

Stephanie Ruhle 32:27 Well, there's no changing for him.

Don Lemon 32:27 ... the economy has to hit rock bottom for Donald Trump and Republicans to understand that he's fucking up the economy.

Brooke Hammerling 32:33 Yeah.

Don Lemon 32:33 Not if they're gonna make a change.

Stephanie Ruhle 32:33 But Kara, let me just make one final point.

Brooke Hammerling 32:35 Okay, okay, and then talk about it.

Don Lemon 32:36 (clears throat)

Stephanie Ruhle 32:36 We're talking about the economy for, for the United States of America. Donald Trump is currently flanked by the most powerful tech giants in the world. And while we think, "Oh, my gosh, look at those tech guys kissing his ass," no way. They have played him. Ama- ... AI is gonna change every element of the way that we live, and we are now going into an AI universe where there is absolutely no regulation. The federal government is even stopping state regulations. So these, this group of individuals, these 10, 15 guys are becoming more powerful and more successful than any people we've seen in our lifetimes, and that, to me, is the story to focus on, the power they have amassed. Like, the whole, like, let's eat the rich, eat the rich is over here. The mega rich, that tiny sliver of universe of people, are so extraordinarily powerful and have so much control, I don't think we realize-

Don Lemon 33:32 And they're so rich.

Stephanie Ruhle 33:32 ... how do our, our-

Don Lemon 33:32 Richer than bi- uh, beyond belief.

Brooke Hammerling 33:35 Yes. Correct.

Stephanie Ruhle 33:36 Correct.

Brooke Hammerling 33:36 Yes, absolutely. So Brooke, what do you think the biggest cultural story of 2026, or whenever you want? I, oh my God, there's so many. Um, but I w- y- ... The thing that I'm thinking about as we were talking about Hollywood and the business of Hollywood, which is, again, not my business, but as a voyeur and as a cultural sort of, you know, fan.

Stephanie Ruhle 33:53 Guru.

Brooke Hammerling 33:53 Guru. Uh, by the way, my newsletter exists because of Stephanie and Kara, because of you guys. But, um, I think it's the marketing of these movies. For example, I look at, um, at, uh, Timothée Chalamet's movie, Marty Supreme. This is ... He is very genius. It makes o- a lot of sense why he and Kylie Jenner of the Kardashian world are, are paired up. They have very similar mindsets of marketing, how to market. This movie was marketed in a way they have never seen before. If you watch TikTok or whatnot, people, a lot of people were very unsure about the movie. They saw it, they came out, they're like, "I don't know if I loved it. I really don't know, but I went to it. I went to it because of the marketing." It was not done in a traditional rollout, like, a night, the night shows, the late-night shows. He was standing on top of the Sphere in Vegas. He did the Sphere. He did blimps. He got ... He ch- did a fashion drop and had all of these sports icons wearing Marty Supreme swag. It's really a whole thi- ... And when you're seeing, like ... You know, there's a YouTube show, Allen's World, that is now, I think the New York Times just did a big story on it. They, it, nine, like, I don't know, billions and billions and billions of views a month, and this is, these are shorts. This is the stuff that, you know, the, your friends Meg Whitman and what's his name wanna kill themselves over because these shows are-

Stephanie Ruhle 35:09 Quibi.

Brooke Hammerling 35:10 Quibi. (laughs)

Stephanie Ruhle 35:11 They, directionally correct.

Brooke Hammerling 35:13 Directionally correct, just didn't, didn't have the right stuff, I guess. Yeah, executionally a problem, though.

Stephanie Ruhle 35:17 But ... But the fact is, I think how, like, you're telling these stories, if, whether it's big budget or small budget, the marketing, the way people are connecting to audiences, they are looking at this now and saying, "Oh, it's not about screenings. It's not about-" That said, it's not doing that well for the price. No, but Kara-

Brooke Hammerling 35:32 Mm-hmm.

Stephanie Ruhle 35:33 ... imagine if the Leonardo DiCaprio movie that came out last year-

Brooke Hammerling 35:36 Which everyone loves.

Stephanie Ruhle 35:36 ... One Battle After Another-

Brooke Hammerling 35:37 Right.

Stephanie Ruhle 35:37 ... this extraordinary film. I'm not saying it should've had e- the Timothée Chalamet, uh, Kardashian, their marketing plan.

Brooke Hammerling 35:48 Mm-hmm.

Stephanie Ruhle 35:49 But had they employed-

Brooke Hammerling 35:50 Something-

Stephanie Ruhle 35:51 ... more-

Brooke Hammerling 35:51 More creative.

Don Lemon 35:51 Because we talked to people-

Stephanie Ruhle 35:52 ... renegade marketing in a, in a different way-

Brooke Hammerling 35:55 Let him finish.

Stephanie Ruhle 35:55 People now are like, "What's that Leo movie? Where can I see it," and it was months ago. I think they missed th- those are old schoo- and I'm not calling them old, but, like, old-school Hollywood mega celebrities, where they probably had to beg Leo to do any press at all 'cause he's Leo. Now you're looking back saying, if they would've employed some of these, like, renegade kinda tactics, it may have had a bigger impact.

Don Lemon 36:18 Stephanie is right. You've gotta have, uh, either guerrilla marketing, or it's gotta be social media-

Stephanie Ruhle 36:23 Guerrilla marketing.

Don Lemon 36:23 ... heavy. It's gotta ... I- i- it's not just ... You can't rely on the old things of, "We'll put an ad here, and we'll do ..." That doesn't work anymore.

Stephanie Ruhle 36:31 Or a Vanity Fair cover-

Don Lemon 36:31 That doesn't play, yeah, it doesn't work.

Stephanie Ruhle 36:32 ... or whatever, Vanity Fair. So-

Brooke Hammerling 36:33 Traditional media doesn't work in this environment, the ... although sometimes-

Don Lemon 36:36 Yeah.

Brooke Hammerling 36:36 ... it does. Of course, the Vanity Fair Suze Wiles piece blew up along with the pictures.

Stephanie Ruhle 36:38 I'm talking about movies.

Brooke Hammerling 36:39 Right.

Stephanie Ruhle 36:39 I'm talking about getting to those-

Don Lemon 36:41 Yes.

Brooke Hammerling 36:41 Right, right.

Stephanie Ruhle 36:41 ... zeitgeists of culture.

Brooke Hammerling 36:42 Listen, everybody was ripping all over Vanity Fair-

Stephanie Ruhle 36:45 Mm-hmm.

Brooke Hammerling 36:45 ... that they were like, "What a mis-" You know, during the whole Olivia Ryan thing-

Stephanie Ruhle 36:49 Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Brooke Hammerling 36:49 ... blah, blah, blah. We stopped talking about that-

Stephanie Ruhle 36:51 No because-

Brooke Hammerling 36:51 ... as soon as they nailed their-

Stephanie Ruhle 36:52 ... they nailed one big story.

Brooke Hammerling 36:53 ... their Suze Wiles cover.

Stephanie Ruhle 36:53 That's right, that is correct.

Don Lemon 36:54 Well, those photos.

Brooke Hammerling 36:55 How soon we forget.

Don Lemon 36:55 Those photos.

Stephanie Ruhle 36:55 Yeah, those photos.

Don Lemon 36:56 Th-

Stephanie Ruhle 36:56 The photos were what was mo- uh, the s- the, the interview, the whole thing.

Brooke Hammerling 36:59 I refuse to, I refuse to insult those photos. I take issue with everybody-

Stephanie Ruhle 37:03 I don't either. I love them.I take huge issue with everyone going after Caroline Levitt and her lip injections.

Brooke Hammerling 37:09 Yeah.

Stephanie Ruhle 37:09 In, in we can't in one hand complain about decency and complain about a president, you know, saying things that are rude or mean and then go after Caroline Levitt for getting the same lip injections that everybody else in Hollywood gets.

Brooke Hammerling 37:21 We-

Don Lemon 37:21 When did this happen?

Brooke Hammerling 37:21 I certainly don't look at it as the criticizing of her.

Stephanie Ruhle 37:23 Or not just Hollywood, but lots of people.

Brooke Hammerling 37:23 I see it as the genius of the photographer telling a story.

Stephanie Ruhle 37:27 Yes. No, no, no. That's where-

Don Lemon 37:28 That's where-

Stephanie Ruhle 37:28 The genius, yes, the genius of the photographer telling the story, you can put in category A.

Don Lemon 37:32 Correct.

Stephanie Ruhle 37:32 But category B-

Brooke Hammerling 37:33 Making fun of her? No.

Stephanie Ruhle 37:34 Making fun of what she looks like-

Brooke Hammerling 37:36 No.

Stephanie Ruhle 37:36 ... is exactly what we're saying is wrong about the president, uh-

Brooke Hammerling 37:40 Yeah.

Stephanie Ruhle 37:40 ... with his sophomoric insults of people.

Don Lemon 37:43 For me, it's more about them getting played. They, I mean if they're in the White House-

Stephanie Ruhle 37:46 Sure, they got played.

Brooke Hammerling 37:47 Sure, sure.

Stephanie Ruhle 37:47 Which is why I-

Don Lemon 37:47 And she's a communications person-

Stephanie Ruhle 37:48 Correct.

Don Lemon 37:48 They should be smarter about their communications, yeah.

Brooke Hammerling 37:50 As a communications person-

Stephanie Ruhle 37:52 Sure.

Brooke Hammerling 37:52 ... I changed my profile picture on Twitter of the cesspool of what I, when I use it to that picture because it's like she's a communications person. She should know exactly what was ahead of her.

Stephanie Ruhle 38:02 What was happening.

Don Lemon 38:03 There you go.

Brooke Hammerling 38:03 That was actually fair.

Don Lemon 38:03 Agreed.

Brooke Hammerling 38:04 May I just-

Stephanie Ruhle 38:04 But going after a woman for Botox?

Brooke Hammerling 38:06 Yeah.

Stephanie Ruhle 38:06 Sister, please. Who hasn't had it?

Don Lemon 38:07 Oh, I think they all looked bad. I think the only person who actually was onto it was JD Vance. He's like, "You're gonna make us look bad, aren't you?" And I, and I was-

Brooke Hammerling 38:15 Well, he did go to Yale University.

Don Lemon 38:17 I know. That's true.

Brooke Hammerling 38:18 He's smart.

Don Lemon 38:18 He's very fancy, but one of the things that was clear is I don't think they, I think they made the outside look like the inside and the inside, the outside look like the inside. That's my feeling. It's just the way they are. Um, so, uh, let, let me ask you one last question. You, you talked about the movies. What caused you to go to a movie this holi- if you did? I went to see Song Sung Blue, which I loved, um, with, uh, especially Kate Hudson I thought was really quite a revelation, um, in it. Is there, what forced you into the theater? One very quick answer because we gotta move on after that. Brooke?

Brooke Hammerling 38:50 I didn't go to the movies. This is the first holiday season I didn't. First of all, it's pouring rain in LA, but I just re-watched Heated Rivalry and-

Don Lemon 38:56 Uh-oh.

Brooke Hammerling 38:56 ... that Palm Beach reality show that Netflix has dropped, which is insane, called Members Only.

Don Lemon 39:02 (laughs)

Brooke Hammerling 39:02 Which is like the Mar-a-Lago Real Housewives.

Don Lemon 39:04 Oh.

Brooke Hammerling 39:04 It is astonishingly bad.

Don Lemon 39:06 So lots of, lots of lip injections. Okay, lots of lip injections. Stephanie, what about you? Did you attend anything? Did anything force you?

Stephanie Ruhle 39:11 I did not go to the movies, but I'm a bad... Uh, I, I didn't go to the movies even when people loved going to the movies.

Brooke Hammerling 39:17 Okay.

Stephanie Ruhle 39:17 I either like to leave the house dressed with high heels and uncomfortable underwear-

Brooke Hammerling 39:21 (laughs)

Stephanie Ruhle 39:21 ... or I like to stay home.

Brooke Hammerling 39:22 Okay.

Don Lemon 39:23 (laughs)

Stephanie Ruhle 39:23 But like the movies to me-

Brooke Hammerling 39:25 Okay.

Stephanie Ruhle 39:25 ... where it's like a little bit stinky in there and I'm not that comfortable-

Brooke Hammerling 39:27 Yeah.

Stephanie Ruhle 39:27 ... in the chairs, that's a hard no.

Brooke Hammerling 39:29 Don, anything?

Don Lemon 39:30 Same thing. I like to leave the house with high heels and uncomfortable underwear, but-

Brooke Hammerling 39:33 (laughs)

Stephanie Ruhle 39:34 (laughs)

Don Lemon 39:36 (laughs) You know, I don't really... I haven't made an effort to go to the movies in years because I, I'm just, I'm like Stephanie. I'm just not that interested now. I go to movie premieres. People invite me to go to movie premieres.

Stephanie Ruhle 39:47 Yes.

Don Lemon 39:47 So I'll go, but-

Stephanie Ruhle 39:48 You know why, Don? Because you got to put high heels and uncomfortable underwear on.

Brooke Hammerling 39:51 Underwear on. Yes.

Don Lemon 39:51 I know.

Stephanie Ruhle 39:51 If you're gonna leave the house, you want to go out.

Brooke Hammerling 39:54 See? This is why all the noise about Netflix talking about things, I think they, they, they're making the correct argument, which is... All right, one more quick break. We'll be back with one more question for each of you. Everyone, we're back. Okay, I have, uh, one last question for each of you, and I,

Brooke Hammerling 40:10 I'm requiring a prediction. First up, Stephanie. We talked, we ended 2025 with a lot of market talk about an AI bubble and whether it would burst. Uh, if that's what you wanna talk about, what, what, what do you, what do you think your prediction would be around AI?

Stephanie Ruhle 40:25 I don't have a prediction-

Brooke Hammerling 40:27 Mm-hmm.

Stephanie Ruhle 40:27 ... of whether it's going to burst, but all eyes are on AI and certainly mine. The question is like is it, it, it, is it truly the future and is it going to convert every element of how we're living? Uh, there are certainly companies that have added AI to their perspectives who are going to go bust, right? Like there are elements, uh, of the dot-com bust that like, I remember I worked in banking at the time, and if there was a dot-com next to the end of your company's name, people were scrambling, uh, uh, uh, to, to, to attend your IPO party. There are companies that this isn't going to work out for. However, the masters of the universe in the AI space and the companies that are smartly and effectively, uh, adopting AI are going to be the companies that soar into the future. How that's going to transform our workforce, I don't yet know. Um, so I don't have a prediction of where AI is going.

Brooke Hammerling 41:21 Mm-hmm.

Stephanie Ruhle 41:21 But it's certainly our future.

Brooke Hammerling 41:22 Any other prediction you wanna just throw out there?

Stephanie Ruhle 41:25 I would just say my prediction is while people say that like the president's spiraling or this and that, I don't think he is. I think Donald Trump is happier than ever. I think he's certainly wealthier than ever, and he's finally surrounded by the world's richest, most powerful people who didn't accept him for years and now they're clinking champagne glasses and couldn't be... I, I think Trump-

Brooke Hammerling 41:45 Melania's holding his hands again. I mean, look at it.

Stephanie Ruhle 41:48 Well, I, I very much worry about the future of our democracy. I worry about the health of our economy. I worry about the, the health and safety of our country and peace in the United States. That particular president, while people say he's a lame duck and he is a lame duck, if you think he's sad or frustrated or unhappy, he's not. He was in, in Trump 1.0 sitting in his bed in the White House with his whole team saying, "No, sir, you can't." Now he is surrounded by, "Yes, may I have another?" And, "Can I give you an airplane and, and a, and some gold bars?" He likey. He likey.

Brooke Hammerling 42:19 Mm-hmm. Okay. Next up, Don. We'll, uh, talk about that. Will President Trump make it through the year? Careful, the answer. I made a prediction. I'm with the Peruvian shamans on this one, but, um, what, uh, what, uh, what is your thoughts of what's coming up in politics? Or anywhere, and also anything else you wanna add.

Don Lemon 42:35 I'm more in line with you. I'm not so ab- I'm not so sure that he's gonna... I'm not like Stephanie. I'm not sure he's, he's gonna make it 'til the end of the year, um, because I think his health is bad. I think they're not letting on, you know, just how sick he is or, or his real health condition. Um, and I think that he is... Well, you think he's happy. I think he's scared. I think he's afraid of the Epstein files and what could come, and a lot of this, in- including Venezuela, has to do with distraction from the Epstein files, and I believe that's why the rollout has been so chaotic, because they want, they're trying to throw people off the trail. They don't want a road map. However, I do believe, as I said, uh, earlier, that this is the beginning of the end for the MAGA movement as we know it, and I think that Hakeem Jeffries could actually end up becoming the majority leader before 2026. I think they're gonna lose. Republicans are gonna lose 2026.

Brooke Hammerling 43:23 Before the end of 2026.

Don Lemon 43:24 Before the end of 2026. I think there are gonna be a lot of Marjorie Taylor Greene defectors, or, or enough that it could change, uh, the balance of the Congress. That's what I believe.

Stephanie Ruhle 43:34 Balance of the Congress. Okay, anything else?

Don Lemon 43:35 Yeah.

Stephanie Ruhle 43:36 But doesn't that depend on where Democrats fall?

Don Lemon 43:39 Uh, it does.

Stephanie Ruhle 43:40 If Democrats scoop up that s- more center space, they're there to take those votes. But if they don't, then can't bag a hold?

Don Lemon 43:48 I think if they scoop up the- that center space, I think that would be a mistake because the movement in the party ... Remember, the people who elected Donald Trump were the people who were motivated to go to the polls, and that were- those were s- kind of the extremes, whether you like that or not. I think the energy in the Democratic Party right now is on the progressive side. It's not in the center.

Stephanie Ruhle 44:06 Yeah.

Don Lemon 44:07 The, um, the center is over for that. People want someone with balls. They want Jasmine Crockett, they want AOC. And I know people don't believe that, but when I'm out there talking to the people, that's who they want. They want Mamdani. They love him. They love, um, Bernie. And I don't hear so much about-

Stephanie Ruhle 44:23 Yeah, but you don't think Chris Murphy has balls?

Don Lemon 44:25 I think he does, but Chris Murphy does not, he does not have the rizz that all of those other folks have. He doesn't get nearly the play. I mean, I mean, I'm not- I don't wanna be insulting, that's kind of a cable news thing. For-

Stephanie Ruhle 44:37 Hmm.

Brooke Hammerling 44:37 Right. Hmm.

Don Lemon 44:37 If you're out there talking to the folks, they love Jasmine, AOC, Bernie, and, and, and the like. They're not talking that much about Chris Murphy. They probably don't even know-

Stephanie Ruhle 44:48 That's a fair point.

Don Lemon 44:49 ... Chris Murphy's name, and that's-

Brooke Hammerling 44:50 So in that, in that vein, Tim Walz is abandoning his re-election campaign for governor. It looks like it might be Amy Klobuchar who is running, and she would be the first woman governor of Minnesota. Um, what ... Uh, someone who is very well-liked in Minnesota, by the way. Um, what, uh, what is your prediction for then a presidential candidate? What does that look like?

Don Lemon 45:11 For-

Brooke Hammerling 45:11 'Cause that- people will be talking after November, before November, for, for 2020.

Don Lemon 45:14 Well, I think that the, the easy one is that it's gonna be Gavin Newsom. Whether he can win or not, that's a whole nother story, but I think it's gonna be Gavin Newsom. I do think that, um, I think someone like an AOC might run, whe- if she's too polarizing, I don't know about that. But I think a, a, a strong ticket, I believe, would be, um, Gavin and Marilyn Westmore.

Brooke Hammerling 45:38 Mm-hmm.

Don Lemon 45:39 Would be Westmore and Gavin Newsom. That would be a really, really strong ticket.

Brooke Hammerling 45:42 Love him.

Stephanie Ruhle 45:43 Mm-hmm.

Don Lemon 45:43 Yeah.

Brooke Hammerling 45:44 He's a handsome man.

Stephanie Ruhle 45:45 He's a handsome man.

Brooke Hammerling 45:45 Yeah.

Stephanie Ruhle 45:45 I, I just, I hear-

Brooke Hammerling 45:47 Restful.

Stephanie Ruhle 45:47 ... everything Don is saying-

Brooke Hammerling 45:48 Okay.

Stephanie Ruhle 45:48 ... and I think that Jasmine Crockett is amazing and AOC are amazing, and they're exciting, exciting women, but I also think there are parts of this country that-

Brooke Hammerling 45:56 No, I know.

Stephanie Ruhle 45:56 ... aren't necessarily looking for excitement. Look at this last election.

Don Lemon 45:59 That's true.

Stephanie Ruhle 45:59 Mamdani had an extraordinary win in New York, and you saw Mikie Sherrill and Abigail Spanberger win in New Jersey and Virginia.

Brooke Hammerling 46:06 Yep, different.

Stephanie Ruhle 46:06 And I think if you took those three people and put them into i- ... I think Mikie couldn't have won in New York and he couldn't have won in New Jersey.

Brooke Hammerling 46:14 Right.

Stephanie Ruhle 46:14 So, I think that the key for Democrats is to truly figure out, for once, how do you become an actual big tent party?

Brooke Hammerling 46:22 Mm-hmm. Can-

Stephanie Ruhle 46:22 And I don't know the answer to it.

Brooke Hammerling 46:22 Can I ask you a question, same, what does Mama Ruhle wanna do? Where is she going?

Stephanie Ruhle 46:25 Oh, where is Mama Ruhle?

Brooke Hammerling 46:27 Oh, Louise.

Stephanie Ruhle 46:28 Where's mom?

Brooke Hammerling 46:28 Louise, trust me, she doesn't-

Stephanie Ruhle 46:29 My mo- my mom likes Marco, just so you know. She hates J.D. Vance.

Brooke Hammerling 46:32 Oh, my mom cer-

Stephanie Ruhle 46:32 She hates J.D. Vance. My mom certainly likes Marco Rubio. She's very disappointed in what Donald is doing.

Brooke Hammerling 46:38 Yeah.

Stephanie Ruhle 46:38 But Louise Ruhle, at the end of the day, cares about the price of London Broil.

Brooke Hammerling 46:42 Yeah.

Stephanie Ruhle 46:42 She cares about gas-

Brooke Hammerling 46:43 London. (laughs)

Stephanie Ruhle 46:44 ... prices. She's not focused on Maduro.

Brooke Hammerling 46:46 Mm-hmm.

Stephanie Ruhle 46:46 And so-

Brooke Hammerling 46:47 Yeah.

Stephanie Ruhle 46:47 ... she would love ... Uh, there's nothing Louise Ruhle would love more than a George Bush, Mitt Romney renaissance.

Brooke Hammerling 46:53 Mm-hmm.

Stephanie Ruhle 46:53 And sorry, Louise, that, Falcon Crest and Dynasty-

Brooke Hammerling 46:57 (laughs)

Stephanie Ruhle 46:57 ... your other favorites, aren't coming back.

Brooke Hammerling 46:58 Ah. Wow. (laughs)

Don Lemon 46:59 Stephanie, in a way, though, I think we're saying the same thing. I'm- I don't disagree with you about the big tent. That they have to figure that out, and every candidate ... Mamdani doesn't work in Iowa. You know what I mean? It's, uh, it's not gonna work there. But I'm saying the energy, like the loudest voices, the people who are more motivated, I believe-

Stephanie Ruhle 47:14 Interesting.

Don Lemon 47:14 ... to go to the polls.

Stephanie Ruhle 47:15 Yeah. Yeah.

Don Lemon 47:15 But, you know, look, there's a qui- there's probably a quiet middle out there. Uh, I don't disagree with you on that. But I just think that that's, you know, that's the folks that people are interested in right now.

Stephanie Ruhle 47:23 You all interesting me.

Brooke Hammerling 47:24 I guess, but I- I'm just saying, Don, I just don't know that like maybe ... I'm not saying the country's getting sick of what's ... Like just 'cause something is going viral, maybe going viral is what's making us sick. And I'm not saying-

Don Lemon 47:36 No, no, no, that's not, that's not it.

Brooke Hammerling 47:36 ... centrist is the answer.

Don Lemon 47:37 That's, uh-

Brooke Hammerling 47:37 But I'm just saying we gotta find a way to be constructive.

Don Lemon 47:40 Yeah, but I think-

Brooke Hammerling 47:40 Right, right. That's-

Don Lemon 47:40 ... it's constructive when I say that the, the, the, the energy's on the progressive side, but the progressives want universal healthcare. That's not-

Brooke Hammerling 47:47 Mm-hmm.

Don Lemon 47:47 I don't believe that that's conservative or liberal. I think that-

Brooke Hammerling 47:49 No, agreed.

Don Lemon 47:49 ... that's a, that's a right that every American should have. A pr- the progressive side wants a living wage for everyone. And look, I'm not a Democrat or Republican-

Brooke Hammerling 47:57 So are centrists.

Don Lemon 47:57 ... I'm an Independent. But cen- yes, they do, but they, they're not as motivated about it, and it was an idea that came from the progressive side. Look at where-

Brooke Hammerling 48:04 I, I think-

Don Lemon 48:04 ... affordability came from, and now the Republicans are using it.

Brooke Hammerling 48:06 ... I think the point Don is making is the Democratic Party is changing, and they're-

Don Lemon 48:09 Yes.

Brooke Hammerling 48:09 ... they're m- also conservative versions of this in the Democratic Party.

Don Lemon 48:13 Right.

Brooke Hammerling 48:13 Are more great, uh, Cesar, um, Pizarz, excuse me. Um, uh, there's all kinds of people, even, um, just there's a lot more congressional people. I'm gonna finish with Brooke. We're recording the day after Critics Choice Awards, speaking of picking-

Stephanie Ruhle 48:27 Ah.

Brooke Hammerling 48:27 ... and choosing- (laughs) ... which kicks off awards season. Um, uh, do they even matter, these awards ceremony, I mean, I- Oh, do, do the award shows themselves matter?

Stephanie Ruhle 48:35 Mm-hmm. Yeah, I-

Brooke Hammerling 48:35 It's-

Stephanie Ruhle 48:35 ... mean, there's obviously the Golden Globes is coming up.

Brooke Hammerling 48:38 Yeah, it's an interesting question.

Stephanie Ruhle 48:39 What's ... Any predictions on what's ahead?

Brooke Hammerling 48:40 I, I think y- yes and no and very different for different reasons. I mean, you just had the news that the Oscars are moving to YouTube in a couple years.

Stephanie Ruhle 48:47 Yeah.

Brooke Hammerling 48:47 That's a big-

Stephanie Ruhle 48:48 Yeah.

Brooke Hammerling 48:48 ... big deal. I don't think ... It used to be like we all would gather and watch, like, the Oscars, and we'd have an Oscar party-

Stephanie Ruhle 48:54 Mm-hmm.

Don Lemon 48:55 I didn't know that.

Brooke Hammerling 48:55 ... and have bu- bu- ... People would do things like that. That doesn't matter. You were never invited, Do- I don't ... I think what matters is the clips, right? So, we're watching- Right. ... like, like the Jeff Goldblum interview yesterday about heated rivalry when he was asked about The Cottage has gone viral. The TikTokers and Instagrammers who are posting about c- uh, fashion, and then you're hearing about movies a- like from the wins people care about. They're like, "Oh, what is this one battle after another?" So, it's not the shows themselves, it's the, it is the viral moments. You had Timothée Chalamet profess his love for Kylie. These things are, are ... Which then goes into Marty Supreme. So, it, that is the stuff that, that is relevant, but nobody's sitting there n- like, the majority of people aren't sitting there and watching, you know, people's speeches and all of the sort of different nominees. They care about the fashion, they care about the viral moments, and they care- Yeah. Right. Yeah, they're easy to digest.

Stephanie Ruhle 49:44 But Kara, the Olympics are in a few weeks, and I do think, just like last Summer Olympics-

Brooke Hammerling 49:48 Mm-hmm.

Stephanie Ruhle 49:49 ... there ... Look at-... for, for example, college football, professional football-

Brooke Hammerling 49:53 Oh, totally.

Stephanie Ruhle 49:53 ... the viewership is off the charts.

Brooke Hammerling 49:56 Totally.

Don Lemon 49:56 Mm-hmm.

Stephanie Ruhle 49:57 And so, I do think that there is a thirst. People do wanna come together and watch things that are joyful, that are exciting. And so while they might not be sitting down and saying, "I'm gonna watch the Oscars," things like the Olympics coming up-

Brooke Hammerling 50:09 Correct.

Don Lemon 50:09 But that's sports.

Stephanie Ruhle 50:10 Even though-

Don Lemon 50:10 The sports has an exemption.

Stephanie Ruhle 50:10 ... even though there'll be a Winter Olympics in the winter-

Brooke Hammerling 50:12 Or live music. I mean, we are all-

Stephanie Ruhle 50:15 Yes, for sure.

Brooke Hammerling 50:15 ... coming together for that. It's just, these awards specifically that used to be-

Don Lemon 50:18 Yeah.

Brooke Hammerling 50:18 ... these sort of, like, cultural moments-

Stephanie Ruhle 50:20 Yeah. So for-

Brooke Hammerling 50:20 ... gone.

Stephanie Ruhle 50:20 ... what, what, what is your... You're always way ahead of trends. What's the trend we are not paying attention to, and one that should be trashed?

Brooke Hammerling 50:27 I, oh, well, the thing, I mean, I, I think we are starting to pay attention to, but this content, like YouTube, when you're talking about billions of views a month compared to, like, anything else and what you're seeing, how much money are being... That is, we have to see, like, and the, the demographic for that are seven to 14-year-old girls. It's your Demon Hunters.

Don Lemon 50:45 Mm-hmm.

Brooke Hammerling 50:45 It's that.

Don Lemon 50:45 Wow.

Brooke Hammerling 50:46 That is the market, right? Like, forget about, forget about Gen Z. We're looking at Alpha and whatnot. So, I think-

Don Lemon 50:52 Right.

Brooke Hammerling 50:52 ... that is where you're gonna start seeing a lot of stuff being created and animation and all of that, music, music, music. And I think the music aspect, whether it's live, whether it's incorporated into TV shows, movies, that's what we are really-

Stephanie Ruhle 51:08 Yeah.

Brooke Hammerling 51:08 ... leaning into. I, I would love to put the Ericka Kirk memes to bed, like the-

Stephanie Ruhle 51:13 Yeah.

Brooke Hammerling 51:13 ... Ericka Kirk mourning tour. Like, she's still blowing up. I don't wanna see her anymore. I don't wanna-

Stephanie Ruhle 51:18 But she's still blowing up.

Brooke Hammerling 51:19 She is still blowing up. People can't get enough.

Stephanie Ruhle 51:21 Uh, mostly making fun of her.

Brooke Hammerling 51:22 Oh, making fun.

Stephanie Ruhle 51:22 Wait, is, hold on, is blowing up a g-

Brooke Hammerling 51:23 No, no.

Stephanie Ruhle 51:24 Is blowing up good or a bad thing?

Brooke Hammerling 51:25 Making fun of her. They're calling it the mourning tour. There's a whole meme going on, like, "I, I mourned Subway's $5, like, the loss of $5 Sub-"

Don Lemon 51:34 Footlong.

Brooke Hammerling 51:34 ... "footlong longer than she mourned the death of her husband." And these just keep going. (laughs) And it is in poor taste, and they have... Remember, like, the guy who did the, um, dance, the Korean singer who, like, gets shot up through the stage?

Stephanie Ruhle 51:46 Yeah, Gangnam Style.

Brooke Hammerling 51:47 Gangnam Style. That's, like-

Don Lemon 51:48 Yeah.

Brooke Hammerling 51:48 ... they're, they're comparing her to that, where she's coming out on stage.

Stephanie Ruhle 51:51 Right.

Brooke Hammerling 51:51 And then the whole story of her and JD getting bashed.

Stephanie Ruhle 51:53 But you'd like it to go away. You, you'd like it- I just, I don't-

Don Lemon 51:55 But don't you think the m- Like, you've got Turning Point USA raking in the money, and their devotees- It's a grift.

Stephanie Ruhle 52:01 ... and then you have people who are, who are... It's, it's a grift. And then you have people who are crushing her 24/7. But don't you think there's an e- I, I, maybe I'm naive. I think there's an exhaustion of meme, where people are like, "Can we move on from that-"

Brooke Hammerling 52:14 Oh, definitely.

Don Lemon 52:14 "... and just live my life forward?"

Brooke Hammerling 52:16 But I just can't- This has-

Don Lemon 52:16 Well, that's the, it will go away, but it's, uh, this one has had a, Brooke, right-

Stephanie Ruhle 52:19 Have legs.

Don Lemon 52:19 ... a longer shelf life than most. Yeah.

Stephanie Ruhle 52:21 Yeah, yeah.

Don Lemon 52:22 And by the way, I am s- I am surprised. The Oscars are going to YouTube? I did not know that. You learn something new every day.

Brooke Hammerling 52:27 Yeah.

Stephanie Ruhle 52:27 Yeah, 2029.

Brooke Hammerling 52:28 2039.

Don Lemon 52:29 Oh my gosh.

Brooke Hammerling 52:30 Yeah.

Stephanie Ruhle 52:30 Yeah.

Don Lemon 52:30 Wow.

Stephanie Ruhle 52:31 It's a big deal.

Brooke Hammerling 52:31 And it'll probably be better. Let me, so Brooke, what is something we don't know that's cresting? Oh. Slowly out in the ocean. It's a tiny little ripple. I, uh, I think we're gonna start... I think heated rivalry, what we're seeing, is gonna cause a whole new sort of, um, moment for people to come forward and be emboldened, whether it's sex, whether it's the things that we used to not be able to talk about. You had that with Hunting Wives. You're seeing that. And that's coming in content that people are creating.

Stephanie Ruhle 53:01 Is there a heated ri- I don't know, so tell me, Brooke. Is there a heated rivalry, conservative pushback against it?

Brooke Hammerling 53:08 I ha- I'm sure there is.

Don Lemon 53:09 No.

Brooke Hammerling 53:09 But it is not getting any traction.

Don Lemon 53:10 No, I can talk, I can talk about that.

Brooke Hammerling 53:12 Yeah, go ahead, Jon.

Don Lemon 53:12 I've seen, I've seen conservative, um, the log cabin Republican type believe that it is conservative-coded because they are closeted.

Brooke Hammerling 53:21 (laughs)

Don Lemon 53:21 They're not open about it. They are-

Brooke Hammerling 53:23 Right.

Don Lemon 53:23 ... you know, they're not pushing it in, putting it in everybody's face, except for that big giant kiss. I, I don't wanna, you know, ruin, uh-

Stephanie Ruhle 53:30 Right.

Don Lemon 53:30 ... be a spoiler. But, uh-

Stephanie Ruhle 53:31 Except for the kiss.

Don Lemon 53:31 ... there could, the conservative gays believe that it is gay, uh, conservative-coded.

Brooke Hammerling 53:36 There are people who believe it's-

Stephanie Ruhle 53:37 But, but, but I don't mean conservative gays. If we're talking about, like, the, the, the woke pendulum swinging, right? So if we're talking about, like, here we were four years ago, and now we're s- now you got Andrew Tate coming over politicians' houses for dinner. Where does heated rivalry, like does that-

Don Lemon 53:54 But-

Stephanie Ruhle 53:54 ... does that family, does that faux family values movement, are they mad about it?

Don Lemon 53:58 Well this isn't-

Stephanie Ruhle 53:58 They must be, but they're silent.

Don Lemon 53:59 I don't think this is a woke thing. This is a, this is kind of a middle, this is kind of a normie kind of, you know, show that has hit a, that has hit the zeitgeist in a way that's not woke.

Stephanie Ruhle 54:10 Yeah.

Don Lemon 54:10 And I do think that it's going to have some penetration, uh, in Middle America.

Stephanie Ruhle 54:14 So to speak.

Don Lemon 54:14 Like, you know, Will & Grace. People may not like it initially, but then it just kinda grows on you. You use to seeing it on your television.

Brooke Hammerling 54:20 But it is the antithesis of the Andrew Tates, and that's what's so fascinating to me.

Don Lemon 54:24 Yeah.

Stephanie Ruhle 54:25 That's my point.

Brooke Hammerling 54:25 And there, there are people that are saying it's a psyops, it's a whole thing that was done to distract us from what's going on with Trump, so there is a growing group of people-

Stephanie Ruhle 54:34 Oh my God. Oh, stop it.

Brooke Hammerling 54:34 ... that believe this is all a conspiracy. People, it's like-

Stephanie Ruhle 54:36 You know what I think?

Brooke Hammerling 54:37 "Look over there! Look at gay sex over there!" Right?

Stephanie Ruhle 54:40 I think-

Don Lemon 54:40 But like, Kara, you, you're paying attention-

Brooke Hammerling 54:42 Yeah.

Stephanie Ruhle 54:42 ... to the pen- like, where the pendulum has swung, where it's going.

Brooke Hammerling 54:44 I think everybody... I, I thought, to me, one of the great moments of 2025, and it paid a lot of attention, was when Golden performed at, uh, but when the people from K-Pop Demon Hunters performed at Macy's parade. Everybody loved it. It was run by obvi- I think a gay guy. You know, the whole thing was very woke in a very lovely way, in a way that wasn't the f- in-your-face woke. It was, it, it's a very subtle... Woke has learned how to, how to be woke now, with that everybody loves- The evolution-

Stephanie Ruhle 55:14 ... and I think the evolution of woke, it's, like, I think heated rivalry is wro- woke. I think Hunting Wives is real woke. But it's a whole different sly-

Brooke Hammerling 55:22 But they're all MAGA in Hunting Wives.

Stephanie Ruhle 55:23 But-

Brooke Hammerling 55:23 They're doing carbon, having lesbians-

Stephanie Ruhle 55:26 I know, but that's, that's the genius-

Brooke Hammerling 55:28 ... at that.

Don Lemon 55:28 That's the joke. That's-

Stephanie Ruhle 55:28 But that's the genius and the joke-

Don Lemon 55:28 Yes.

Stephanie Ruhle 55:28 ... of Hunting Wives.

Brooke Hammerling 55:29 That's right, that's right, and exac- like guns, uh, MAGA, lesbians. It's like, they're fucking net-

Don Lemon 55:35 Cocaine.

Brooke Hammerling 55:36 Woke has learned. The way a lot-

Stephanie Ruhle 55:37 Right?

Brooke Hammerling 55:37 ... the way a lot of congre- Congresspeople, um, uh, Sarah McBride is a good example. Very slyly, l- lovely person. She's, she's, you know, imperfect allies. It's a different th- And so Golden, if you listen to that song, it is completely about being gay.

Stephanie Ruhle 55:55 Yeah.

Brooke Hammerling 55:55 It's about being, like, who you are, but everybody wants, like-

Kara Swisher 56:00 I have the most gender-coded son in Solomon. He's such a dude. He's always showing his butt. He's like, "I have a penis." Everything.

Don Lemon 56:08 (laughs)

Kara Swisher 56:08 He's so man.

Don Lemon 56:09 (laughs) .

Kara Swisher 56:09 I have, like, dudes-

Stephanie Ruhle 56:09 But that doesn't mean he's toxic.

Kara Swisher 56:11 That's correct.

Stephanie Ruhle 56:12 He's just a dude.

Kara Swisher 56:13 That's... He's a dude. But I have to say, I said, "Do you like the Soja Boys?" He goes, "Oh, no. I like the girls." Like, there was... He likes all the boys like the girls, and that didn't happen with my... My other sons immediately rejected the girls. Now, the girls are... And to me, they are so... When I saw people respond to Golden, I was like, "They have no idea what they're listening to here." And it's... I think there's a new version of woke that is going to infect the whole country-

Stephanie Ruhle 56:39 Well, and I-

Kara Swisher 56:39 ... of kindness.

Stephanie Ruhle 56:39 But don't you think that version-

Kara Swisher 56:41 ... of kindness.

Stephanie Ruhle 56:41 ... has woke... But that's it.

Kara Swisher 56:43 Yes.

Stephanie Ruhle 56:43 That version of woke, those young males-

Kara Swisher 56:46 Yes.

Stephanie Ruhle 56:46 ... who, who, who briefly got swayed-

Kara Swisher 56:48 Yes.

Stephanie Ruhle 56:48 ... into the Trump-averse-

Kara Swisher 56:50 Yeah.

Stephanie Ruhle 56:50 ... and then said, "Hold on a second."

Kara Swisher 56:52 Yeah. You're seeing Rogan-

Stephanie Ruhle 56:53 "I'm not against this group. I'm against that."

Kara Swisher 56:53 I was just gonna say, you, you-

Stephanie Ruhle 56:54 They were just tired, right? The profile of, of my oldest son-

Kara Swisher 56:58 Mm-hmm.

Stephanie Ruhle 56:58 ... is a dude.

Kara Swisher 56:59 Right.

Stephanie Ruhle 56:59 He's not a toxic male.

Kara Swisher 57:01 Right. Yeah.

Stephanie Ruhle 57:01 And, and, and so when he was, when he was... Had his finger waved in his face-

Kara Swisher 57:06 Right.

Stephanie Ruhle 57:06 ... and yelled at, you saw those boys sway. And then moments after the election-

Kara Swisher 57:10 Yes.

Stephanie Ruhle 57:10 ... they were like, "No, no, no, no, no, no."

Kara Swisher 57:11 Yeah.

Stephanie Ruhle 57:12 And like, "I'm not going there."

Kara Swisher 57:13 Rogan is doing it. There's a lot-

Stephanie Ruhle 57:15 So I... You see ex-... Exactly.

Don Lemon 57:15 I haven't-

Kara Swisher 57:16 And Theo Von is doing it.

Don Lemon 57:16 I haven't seen Hunting Wives, but I'm su-... Like, just in my personal life, I would not be surprised to see, um, conservatives or MAGA people doing cocaine or lesbians or shooting because those are the people who are doing it. In my life as a gay man, my woke gay friends are the most boring, with-kids people I know and not out doing sexting and... uh, you know, sexing it up. But the conservatives I know, some of them who are closeted, they're the ones who are out partying every night, who are doing the drugs, who are having the sex.

Kara Swisher 57:51 Yes, that's always the case, right?

Don Lemon 57:52 Right? And so, uh, that would not be a shock to me, so I think it's just letting people know what's happening.

Stephanie Ruhle 57:57 But wasn't that the genius of Hunting Wives?

Kara Swisher 57:58 Right.

Stephanie Ruhle 57:58 Right? When you were like, "Oh my gosh, this is a full MAGA bonanza." Then the next episode, you know, the ones doing the chief-of-police.

Kara Swisher 58:05 They have... They... Exactly. That was Dynasty Pol-... Like, by the way, when I was a young gay person in Washington DC, I would say, "Someone rhymes with Ginsey Dam" was in the big gay bars I saw down there.

Don Lemon 58:16 Right.

Kara Swisher 58:16 So I was like, this was, this was, like, common.

Stephanie Ruhle 58:18 But I do think that the thing, the trend that we're seeing, like you say, the Theo Vons, the Joe Rogans-

Kara Swisher 58:23 Mm-hmm.

Stephanie Ruhle 58:23 ... people are realizing it's not just their... I don't think it's because they have become morally awake-

Kara Swisher 58:28 No.

Stephanie Ruhle 58:28 ... like Marjorie Taylor Greene, I don't think. I think they see that there's more money to be made in the middle. There's more money to go in and say-

Kara Swisher 58:35 Right.

Stephanie Ruhle 58:35 ... "Actually, this is-"

Don Lemon 58:35 Yeah, leave people alone.

Stephanie Ruhle 58:37 Yeah.

Don Lemon 58:37 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 58:38 And but Jack can put-

Don Lemon 58:38 I do think there is a "this is not what I voted for" aspect to it. I, I believe them when they say that.

Kara Swisher 58:42 Yes.

Don Lemon 58:42 Even though it is what they voted for-

Kara Swisher 58:44 Yes.

Don Lemon 58:44 ... maybe they didn't think that they would be rounding people up off of the streets-

Kara Swisher 58:47 I think they believe that.

Don Lemon 58:48 ... like they did in the past.

Stephanie Ruhle 58:49 I, I, I would... Can I just give one final quick question?

Kara Swisher 58:50 And then I got to give a prediction. I really do think, my prediction, and it touches this, I think this year, honestly, love and kindness will reign supreme.

Stephanie Ruhle 58:58 Okay.

Kara Swisher 58:58 People are so exhausted.

Stephanie Ruhle 59:00 Oh, I'm sad.

Kara Swisher 59:00 And I hear you, Don, and the grief and the hate.

Don Lemon 59:01 No, I agree with you.

Stephanie Ruhle 59:02 I agree with you.

Don Lemon 59:03 I agree with you.

Kara Swisher 59:03 So many people-

Stephanie Ruhle 59:04 I totally know.

Kara Swisher 59:04 Even... Look, even... Look, right? I have every incentive to not want to believe Marjorie Taylor Greene. And when I watch her on The View just talking like a reasonable broad, I'm like, "God, I feel you." And I don't know if I feel her beyond that episode, but I do think this is the year people wake up- Give people a break. Give people a break.

Stephanie Ruhle 59:20 ... and realize, "Let's give one another a break."

Kara Swisher 59:22 Yeah.

Don Lemon 59:22 I do, but I got to see if it's going to act-

Stephanie Ruhle 59:24 Life's much easier when violence-

Don Lemon 59:24 Your words have to match... Your actions have to match your words, so I'll give it time. I don't necessarily believe it right now.

Kara Swisher 59:30 Yeah. All right. Let me ask the final question though, 'cause the story of the beginning of 2025 was Elon Musk at the beginning, right?

Stephanie Ruhle 59:35 Who?

Kara Swisher 59:35 With him taking up Doge. Remember?

Stephanie Ruhle 59:37 Space Karen? Fuck no.

Kara Swisher 59:38 Space Karen. Um, what did, what does-

Don Lemon 59:40 (laughs)

Kara Swisher 59:41 I wanna know because he was the story of 20... We, we've forgotten since it seems so long ago, but there was a whole cycle of him on top and then on bottom.

Stephanie Ruhle 59:48 Oh.

Kara Swisher 59:48 Now, he's back with Trump. He's back with Trump.

Stephanie Ruhle 59:50 They just had dinner.

Kara Swisher 59:51 They just had dinner.

Stephanie Ruhle 59:51 He posted a video, a picture of him and Melania.

Kara Swisher 59:53 What is his future for... This is a tech show. What is... He was the most prominent tech figure in 2025. What happens to him in 2026? Uh, I want first Stephanie and then Don and then Brooke from a culture point of view. Stephanie?

Stephanie Ruhle 1:00:05 Listen, Doge didn't work i- in every way, but guess what? He is more powerful than ever. How am... Uh, when you look at SpaceX, when you look at the amount of contracts, the, the possible IPO coming, when you look at how NASA has done less and so much more is being contracted to Elon Musk or what Palantir is doing, I think... I'm not saying Elon Musk learned his lesson, but Elon Musk is in a far better position personally and professionally today, on par to be w- w- richer than anyone could have ever fathomed without getting 24/7 public scrutiny of the grand failure that was Doge, right? L- like we all said, like, Doge is gonna... He, he's gonna try to employ Doge. He will get in his rocket ship and leave, which essentially he's done, and leave wreckage behind, which is what happened to so many of our agencies and just, just within our federal government. So, so Elon Musk has left Doge and that failure behind, and he keeps on trucking.

Kara Swisher 1:01:02 Yes, he does. He keeps on trucking.

Stephanie Ruhle 1:01:02 I don't even think he thinks about Doge.

Kara Swisher 1:01:04 He doesn't.

Stephanie Ruhle 1:01:04 He takes those headlines and puts them in a birdcage for Liner.

Kara Swisher 1:01:07 Yeah. All right. Next, Don?

Don Lemon 1:01:08 Mm-hmm.

Kara Swisher 1:01:09 You worked for him.

Don Lemon 1:01:10 Um...

Kara Swisher 1:01:10 How's that case going? (laughs)

Don Lemon 1:01:12 (laughs) I am not talking about that case for sure. (laughs)

Kara Swisher 1:01:15 We're interested.

Don Lemon 1:01:15 But-

Stephanie Ruhle 1:01:16 Tell us. Nobody is listening.

Don Lemon 1:01:17 What I will say, you can say a lot of things about Elon Musk, but I don't think he's a dummy, right?

Kara Swisher 1:01:22 Mm-mm.

Don Lemon 1:01:22 I think he's a smart man. I, I believe that, uh, uh, in this whole political thing, that he's learned the limits of his power. And by learning the limits of his power, he's learned where his power actually is, and I think it's being quieter behind the scenes, uh, making better and more innovative cars. And if he just... And rockets or whatever it is. And if he sticks to that, he could have more influence than try... Than running some, you know, department of government efficiency, which never really worked, which actually did not save any money. So, um, I think that-

Kara Swisher 1:01:52 And, and tarnished him badly.

Don Lemon 1:01:53 And, and tar-... And he realized that, um, if you're going to be in the business where you're selling a product and you're, and you're someone who is as high profile as him and as the face of the company, uh, then you have to have a good reputation. You have to do good for people rather than taking jobs. You can't take people's jobs and say... and take their money and their livelihood and they have a, you know, a smaller wallet and say, "Now buy my car."It doesn't really work that way.

Kara Swisher 1:02:16 Yeah, yeah. So, he's learned his lesson. Brooke, finish up cultural.

Brooke Hammerling 1:02:18 Yeah. I think, and I think Don's absolutely right. Um, I, I don't know if he's learned his lesson in the sense that he wants to do good, but the celebrity aspect of where he wanted, he had the, he was hosting SNL, he was in every single place, he was on television as, almost as much as Trump. He was speaking and jumping up and down. The cult of celebrity, he realized, is not where his power is, and so he's taken a giant step back from that and is much more subtle and much more sort of, you know, s- whether somebody's guiding him, which it really seems like might be, somebody, he's got somebody in his ear, or he just came upon that himself where the destruction ... And maybe he's gone to rehab and the ketamine use is down. I, who knows?

Kara Swisher 1:02:59 Okay, Kara, that's the perfect-

Brooke Hammerling 1:02:59 Not according to Suzy Wiles.

Kara Swisher 1:03:00 That's the perfect segue-

Brooke Hammerling 1:03:02 Okay.

Kara Swisher 1:03:02 ... to credit Scott Galloway.

Brooke Hammerling 1:03:03 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 1:03:03 Scott Galloway has been saying for years and years-

Brooke Hammerling 1:03:06 Mm-hmm.

Kara Swisher 1:03:07 ... he sells the stock, he stops trusting the company when the CEO is on the cover of Vogue.

Brooke Hammerling 1:03:12 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 1:03:12 When, when, when they're in a fashion photo shoot and they're surrounded-

Brooke Hammerling 1:03:15 Mm-hmm.

Kara Swisher 1:03:15 ... by puppies-

Brooke Hammerling 1:03:16 Mm-hmm.

Kara Swisher 1:03:16 ... that's when you sell the stock, that's when you stop believing in the company. Elon Musk had his celebrity phase, then his celebrity, you know, political king maker, and now he's, whether I'm saying realized or not-

Brooke Hammerling 1:03:27 Then he had to fall.

Kara Swisher 1:03:28 ... he's saying-

Brooke Hammerling 1:03:28 Then he had to fall.

Kara Swisher 1:03:28 Yeah. And he's saying, "Guess what? I am much better off as the Wizard of Oz."

Brooke Hammerling 1:03:31 Mm.

Kara Swisher 1:03:32 And that's what he is, the man behind the curtain.

Brooke Hammerling 1:03:33 That's right. Yeah. Speaker 2Yeah.

Kara Swisher 1:03:34 Where else, where else goes?

Don Lemon 1:03:34 But he did expose himself. He did expose himself in that.

Kara Swisher 1:03:36 He did, he did.

Don Lemon 1:03:37 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 1:03:37 He showed his ass.

Don Lemon 1:03:38 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 1:03:38 How can we miss if he won't go away to Mars?

Don Lemon 1:03:40 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 1:03:40 Anyway, uh, thank you so much all of you. Let me just read this out. We wanna hear from you. Send us your questions about business, tech, or whatever's on your mind and what you think of these fine co-hosts. Go to nymag.com/pivot, submit a question for the show or call 855-51-PIVOT. Okay, that's the show. You guys actually were fantastic and fantastic together, and you outclassed Scott Galloway, I have to say-

Don Lemon 1:04:03 (laughs)

Kara Swisher 1:04:03 ... for our first show of the year, and I truly appreciate it, and so does Scott from whate- wherever he is, whatever he is doing.

Brooke Hammerling 1:04:09 Mm.

Kara Swisher 1:04:09 Again, please write in what you think he is doing. Um, you're probably right. In 2026, my, my personal hope is to have a shred of the confidence that Kara Swisher does.

Brooke Hammerling 1:04:19 (laughs) A shred.

Kara Swisher 1:04:20 In pain.

Don Lemon 1:04:21 And, and, and the cameos.

Brooke Hammerling 1:04:22 I love myself still. Yeah, heated rivalry. We're all going with you, baby.

Kara Swisher 1:04:25 We're going. Okay, all right. You're all coming on the set and making a nuisance of yourself.

Brooke Hammerling 1:04:28 Great.

Kara Swisher 1:04:29 Now, be sure to check out the Don Lemon Show. It's amazing. He got to a million YouTube, uh, uh, subscribers. It was amazing.

Brooke Hammerling 1:04:36 That's awesome.

Kara Swisher 1:04:36 The 11th Hour with Stephanie Ruhle. It is s- the best. It's, I watch it every night, and I send pictures to Stephanie. It's the, I have to say-

Don Lemon 1:04:44 Same.

Kara Swisher 1:04:44 ... it's the best hour of cable television.

Don Lemon 1:04:46 It's good.

Kara Swisher 1:04:46 I learn a lot.

Brooke Hammerling 1:04:47 Thank you.

Kara Swisher 1:04:47 Um, and of course, Pop Culture Mondays, Brooke is always way ahead of the, the curve on lots and li- ... She was always like, "I wrote about that months ago." Anyway, thank you for listening to Pivot, and be sure to like and subscribe to our YouTube channel. We'll be back on Friday, hopefully with Scott Galloway (laughs) . We'll see. I will read us out. Today's show (laughs) was produced by Lara Naiman, Zoe Marcus, and Taylor Griffin. Ernie Entenedat engineered this episode. Jim Mackle edited the video, and Nishat Kurwa is Vox Media's executive producer of podcasts. Make sure to follow Pivot on your favorite podcast platform. Thanks for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and, uh, Vox Media. You can subscribe to the magazine at nymag.com/pod. We'll be back later this week for another breakdown of all things h- uh, tech and business.

Don Lemon 1:05:31 Thanks, Kara.

Kara Swisher 1:05:33 Bye, guys. Thank you.

Don Lemon 1:05:33 And it's I'm coming to the cottage.