Trump Tariff Fallout: Who Wins, Who Loses, and What’s Next | Pivot

Scott Galloway 0:00 Before, after. Before, after.

Kara Swisher 0:04 Oh, God. Come on. Okay. Come on! Let's go. He's gonna ... And he's gonna blab too much too. Hi, everyone. This is Pivot from New York Magazine, the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Kara Swisher in my new studio without books behind me, but they will have them. Here I am, Scott.

Scott Galloway 0:27 Oh, my God. Could you be in-

Kara Swisher 0:28 How do I look?

Scott Galloway 0:28 ... more w- You're apologizing for not having books behind you.

Kara Swisher 0:31 (laughs)

Scott Galloway 0:31 Jesus.

Kara Swisher 0:31 Well, I'm gonna have awards. My many awards is what I'm gonna have.

Scott Galloway 0:35 Yeah, yeah.

Kara Swisher 0:35 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 0:35 Okay, good.

Kara Swisher 0:35 Do you like my new studio? It's in my house.

Scott Galloway 0:38 Uh, I'm not sure I like the red chair, quite frankly.

Kara Swisher 0:41 Really, why? Does it upset you? Does it threaten you?

Scott Galloway 0:44 Um, no. It takes me back to an era. I think you've moved on. I think you've turned the page on the red chair.

Kara Swisher 0:50 Ah, we'll see. I like it for now. I'm gonna leave it-

Scott Galloway 0:53 Yeah?

Kara Swisher 0:53 ... because it upsets you. It upsets and disturbs you.

Scott Galloway 0:56 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 0:56 You mean it's, like, retro or that I should ... it reminds you of Walt Mossberg, who I just had lunch with?

Scott Galloway 1:01 No, I love Walt, Walt.

Kara Swisher 1:03 Yeah?

Scott Galloway 1:03 I just think you've moved on. I don't know.

Kara Swisher 1:05 All right. What color chair should I have with you in the Scott era?

Scott Galloway 1:08 Plaid.

Kara Swisher 1:09 (laughs)

Scott Galloway 1:09 Um, no. I don't know. Black, all black.

Kara Swisher 1:12 I'm gonna put your blanket that I stole from the Fife Arms, uh, where ... for your birthday, I'm gonna put it-

Scott Galloway 1:16 Oh, good. That'd be nice.

Kara Swisher 1:17 I'll put that on, okay?

Scott Galloway 1:18 Okay.

Kara Swisher 1:18 Next ... All right. I'll put it ... I'll drape it. I'll drape a Scottish, a Scott Scottish thing on it and take it to-

Scott Galloway 1:24 No, I think it reminds us how old you are. But anyways, um-

Kara Swisher 1:27 Literally, right out of the gate. Go ahead.

Scott Galloway 1:29 Right out of the gate.

Kara Swisher 1:30 Go ahead.

Scott Galloway 1:30 Hello.

Kara Swisher 1:31 You were on your college tour. Tell me about ... You were away last week-

Scott Galloway 1:34 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 1:34 ... with your lovely guest hosts. I went Jen Psaki and, uh, Jon Lovett. They were great, but-

Scott Galloway 1:39 Jen Psaki and ... Those are, those are both great.

Kara Swisher 1:41 They are great. They were very lively.

Scott Galloway 1:42 I'd like to be friends with both of them. They'd like ... Uh, they'd be fun to roll with.

Kara Swisher 1:44 Hmm, we'll see about that. We'll, we'll check.

Scott Galloway 1:46 No, she's-

Kara Swisher 1:47 We'll, I'll check, I'll check with them. We'll call you.

Scott Galloway 1:49 She's, she's interesting and attractive-

Kara Swisher 1:50 We'll ca- Yeah.

Scott Galloway 1:50 ... and he's interesting.

Kara Swisher 1:51 Yeah? Really? (laughs) Okay.

Scott Galloway 1:53 (laughs) Sorry. Sorry, Jon.

Kara Swisher 1:54 Anyway, um-

Scott Galloway 1:55 Who's the handsome one? Uh, who's the handsome one?

Kara Swisher 1:57 All of them.

Scott Galloway 1:58 No, no.

Kara Swisher 1:58 Oh, Jon Favreau is who you're thinking about.

Scott Galloway 1:59 Oh, he's dreamy.

Kara Swisher 2:00 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 2:01 That dude's dreamy.

Kara Swisher 2:02 I think Jon Lovett's adorable.

Scott Galloway 2:04 Yeah. He's good-looking. He, he-

Kara Swisher 2:05 He was on Survivor. Do you know he was on the show Survivor?

Scott Galloway 2:07 He was on Survivor?

Kara Swisher 2:09 I didn't. Yeah, he didn't survive.

Scott Galloway 2:09 He's way too smart and overthought. He was out in the second round. He doesn't-

Kara Swisher 2:12 Yeah, he was out pretty quickly.

Scott Galloway 2:13 That guy is too.

Kara Swisher 2:14 I don't watch him.

Scott Galloway 2:14 That guy is, "I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna ..." I'm voting Jon off the island.

Scott Galloway 2:18 Okay.

Kara Swisher 2:18 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 2:18 College tour back to me.

Kara Swisher 2:19 Uh, college tour. Tell me about the college tour, because I really don't want to talk about White Lotus in any way.

Scott Galloway 2:24 Um, so eight schools-

Kara Swisher 2:26 But you were great.

Scott Galloway 2:26 ... in five days. Seven straight days of full parenting. Cleared everything, didn't talk to anybody. I think I only talked to you once, if that, and it was about the college tour. We went to ... I like to personify everything. And just so I can make sure my kid gets into none of them, I'll personify each of them. So, first one we did was UDub, University of Wisconsin-Madison. And when I was at UCLA, the fraternity next to mine was the Phi Kaps. And the Phi Kaps are basically these white dudes from small towns who abuse substances, who did really well on the SAT.

Kara Swisher 3:03 Okay.

Scott Galloway 3:04 That is the University of Wisconsin-Madison, except it's a girl who wears too much makeup, who really likes makeup. And-

Kara Swisher 3:11 (laughs) What?

Scott Galloway 3:13 (laughs) But they're doing their job. Actually, UDub Madison-

Kara Swisher 3:16 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 3:17 I, I rag a lot on higher education. They're doing their job.

Kara Swisher 3:20 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 3:20 They let in a sh- They let in a shit ton of kids.

Kara Swisher 3:22 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 3:23 It's crowded. They have money, but it's not the Ritz-Carlton, Madison. They are ... They get it. They, they've ... You know, they got the assignment. I felt really good. I actually met with someone there just so I can virtue signal. They do this amazing program where they train prisoners, or they educate pri- They do classes at local prisons. I'm giving some money to it. They're doing their job. I was really impressed with them.

Kara Swisher 3:46 Okay. So you like them. But you just insulted them, so your son is not getting in there now. But go ahead, move along.

Scott Galloway 3:49 There we go. Thanks for that. And then we went to Chicago. Chicago is a dude.

Kara Swisher 3:56 Mm-hmm. University of, that's what you mean.

Scott Galloway 3:58 Yeah, UChicago. I did a session there in the Inter- Institute of Politics with David Axelrod.

Kara Swisher 4:04 He's great.

Scott Galloway 4:04 Yeah. Which is available on YouTube. And imagine a guy in a park. They're one of two things. They either win a Nobel Prize ... Everyone who goes there either wins a Nobel Prize or ends up in a park without shoes, feeding pigeons and speaking to themselves.

Kara Swisher 4:20 (laughs) Okay.

Scott Galloway 4:20 I mean, these people are ... I can't imagine people I would rather not party with than anyone who went to the University of Chicago.

Kara Swisher 4:28 Oh, wow. Okay. All right. That's the way to do it. Okay.

Scott Galloway 4:28 Having said that, having said that-

Kara Swisher 4:31 All right.

Scott Galloway 4:31 ... anyone that interviews with me-

Kara Swisher 4:33 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 4:33 ... they went to the University of Chicago-

Kara Swisher 4:35 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 4:35 ... automatic hire, because they're self-hating, they work all the time, they're brilliant, mildly depressed.

Kara Swisher 4:40 Oh. Okay.

Scott Galloway 4:40 Perfect employees.

Kara Swisher 4:42 Okay.

Scott Galloway 4:42 Perfect employees.

Kara Swisher 4:43 (laughs) Let's move it through. Okay, keep going. Let's get it out.

Scott Galloway 4:45 Northwestern.

Kara Swisher 4:46 Okay.

Scott Galloway 4:47 This is the gay son we all want.

Kara Swisher 4:49 Oh, okay. (laughs)

Scott Galloway 4:50 This is ... (laughs)

Kara Swisher 4:52 You should write a college tour book. Go ahead. Gay son.

Scott Galloway 4:53 This is stylish, impressive-

Kara Swisher 4:57 Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Scott Galloway 4:58 ... good in theater, but also, like, takes AP everything and does well. And it's the most ... There is clearly so much money there. It is such a beautiful campus.

Kara Swisher 5:09 It is.

Scott Galloway 5:10 But the lake is just sitting there going, "Oh, bitch, I'm gonna make it so cold about three months a year."

Kara Swisher 5:16 (laughs) All months a year.

Scott Galloway 5:17 You may think ... Oh, my God.

Kara Swisher 5:19 Yes.

Scott Galloway 5:19 You can just feel the win- You can feel-

Kara Swisher 5:22 Yeah, it's cold. It's cold in Chicago. It's cold, yeah.

Scott Galloway 5:22 ... Mother Winter and the wear going, "Oh, just wait and see what I'm gonna do to you." Then we went to Michigan.

Kara Swisher 5:28 And saw my son.

Scott Galloway 5:30 Your son is Michigan personified.

Kara Swisher 5:33 (laughs) Oh, no. You better be careful-

Scott Galloway 5:35 No.

Kara Swisher 5:35 ... because he loves you and I'm his mom. Go ahead.

Scott Galloway 5:37 No. Imagine you're a power forward.

Kara Swisher 5:39 Uh-huh.

Scott Galloway 5:40 And work at it all the time, and a nice kid, and you also get 11 million on the SAT.

Kara Swisher 5:44 (laughs)

Scott Galloway 5:45 They're like ... These kids are-

Kara Swisher 5:48 Super.

Scott Galloway 5:48 Michigan, Michigan is one of those schools ... It's arguably the best public school in the nation.

Kara Swisher 5:52 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 5:52 Maybe tied with Berkeley. But you can go super deep on social, or you could literally try and split the atom at the building next to the cafeteria.

Kara Swisher 6:03 Yeah. Right, yeah.

Scott Galloway 6:04 You could go deep either way.

Kara Swisher 6:06 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 6:06 Yeah. I think Michigan ... And it's a big school. I like schoo- I like to call out schools that are doing their job. They're letting ... They're just-... they're living up to their mission. They're trying to keep tuition reasonable. It's not inexpensive. But educating a lot of kids, they're doing their job, and it's a really impressive place. And also, you can go deep in sports, and I, your-

Kara Swisher 6:26 The working st-

Scott Galloway 6:28 Your son-

Kara Swisher 6:29 ... the workout stuff is great.

Scott Galloway 6:29 Your son saved the day. It's storming, about 300 people. By the wa- we th- show up at, we've been doing all these tours. By the way, easy law, it should be a law punishable by death. No parent should be able to ask a question in the fucking parents-teacher in the tours.

Kara Swisher 6:48 Yeah, okay.

Scott Galloway 6:48 They all... I, uh, uh, I was so triggered. None of the students could ask a question-

Kara Swisher 6:54 Because the parents are

Narrator 6:55 Blaming.

Scott Galloway 6:55 ... because the over-parenting, and get this, the op- the highlight, this is a true story, University of Chicago.

Kara Swisher 7:01 Oh.

Scott Galloway 7:01 University of Chicago.

Kara Swisher 7:03 Okay. All right.

Scott Galloway 7:03 Three women, three moms, asked the same question sequentially about safety on campus. The threat to an 18-year-old freshman on college campuses is dwarfed by the suicidal ideation of over-protection of parents that don't prepare them-

Kara Swisher 7:21 All right. (laughs)

Scott Galloway 7:21 ... for the fucking real world. Moms asking questions at parent teacher-

Kara Swisher 7:26 I'm with the moms.

Scott Galloway 7:26 ... at college tours.

Kara Swisher 7:27 I don't think they should ask questions then. I agree with you.

Scott Galloway 7:29 Parents at college tours are a bigger threat to your kid's safety than any crime-

Kara Swisher 7:35 (laughs) Okay, all right.

Scott Galloway 7:36 ... on campus.

Kara Swisher 7:36 Okay, moving along. So Alex took you on a tour.

Scott Galloway 7:38 Okay. He f- e- anyway, so we get there. They canceled the tour. The weather was so bad, they're like, "We're canceling the tour." So you have 100 kids and 200 Karens, parents, just sitting in the hallway. So I text Alex and he's like, "Yeah, come, come to the house." We showed up...

Kara Swisher 7:57 At his frat house.

Scott Galloway 7:58 Imagine you're an animal living inside a trash dumpster.

Kara Swisher 8:02 Yeah, that's it.

Scott Galloway 8:02 And it had Greek letters on the side.

Kara Swisher 8:04 Yeah, that's it.

Scott Galloway 8:05 It is, it smells like-

Kara Swisher 8:07 Beer.

Scott Galloway 8:07 ... old, old beer.

Kara Swisher 8:10 Old beer. Yeah.

Scott Galloway 8:10 There's shit everywhere.

Kara Swisher 8:11 Swamp.

Scott Galloway 8:11 And by the way, it's much (laughs) nicer-

Kara Swisher 8:12 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 8:12 ... than my fraternity.

Kara Swisher 8:14 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 8:14 And it's these kids playing foosball. Some are in suits. Some are studying physics. There's a weight room. It gave me a business idea.

Kara Swisher 8:22 He said you seemed to enjoy being there.

Scott Galloway 8:25 Uh, it took me back. My-

Kara Swisher 8:26 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 8:26 I lived in my fraternity for four years.

Kara Swisher 8:28 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 8:28 And my girlfriend wouldn't come over, and I'd say, "Why won't you come over?" And she said, "It smells like cum. I don't wanna come over."

Kara Swisher 8:33 (laughs)

Scott Galloway 8:34 So I came up with a business idea. (laughs)

Kara Swisher 8:37 (laughs) The smell.

Scott Galloway 8:37 I came up with a business i-

Kara Swisher 8:38 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 8:38 I'm gonna start a candle, and it's either stale beer or cum. I think it would work. (laughs)

Kara Swisher 8:44 Okay. (laughs) Uh, only four colleges in here.

Scott Galloway 8:47 That's my-

Kara Swisher 8:48 Alex gave you a tour.

Scott Galloway 8:48 ... sin together. Okay.

Kara Swisher 8:49 Ask him.

Scott Galloway 8:49 Then we went, then we went to Boston College.

Kara Swisher 8:51 Uh, but Alex gave you a tour. Thank Alex Wisher for doing that. He took you around.

Scott Galloway 8:55 He saved the day. Oh, I'm sorry.

Kara Swisher 8:56 He-

Scott Galloway 8:56 Alex saved the day. And then Alex said, "No problem. Come by the fraternity." We cruise around his fraternity. My son just got the biggest kick out of our fraternity.

Kara Swisher 9:03 Yeah, he did.

Scott Galloway 9:04 He did the kick, it's good. And then he took us on this like, this like, I don't know.

Kara Swisher 9:08 Whirlwind.

Scott Galloway 9:09 ... CliffNotes tour of Michigan and then took us for lunch. He literally, Alex saved the day. We were in a typhoon with a parent teacher con- or a tour canceled, and Alex did this whirlwind. He saved the day.

Kara Swisher 9:21 He loves-

Scott Galloway 9:22 And my son-

Kara Swisher 9:22 He loves Michigan, let me just say. He loves Michigan.

Scott Galloway 9:23 And my son is, uh, very impressed, very impressed by Alex.

Kara Swisher 9:27 Good.

Scott Galloway 9:27 He couldn't have been, he couldn't have been nicer or more generous. Not easy for a kid to just take two or three hours out of his day.

Kara Swisher 9:32 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 9:32 Anyways, thank you, Alex Wisher.

Kara Swisher 9:33 Well, he loves you.

Scott Galloway 9:34 And then we went to Boston College, which we were really impressed by. I say that was the biggest surprise to the upside, but it is sort of a... it's a fallen Catholic, it's a kid that used to go to church and by the 11th grade he's selling dope out of his RAV4.

Kara Swisher 9:49 Is that the AOC college or did she go to Boston University? I don't know which one-

Scott Galloway 9:53 Oh, AOC went there?

Kara Swisher 9:55 I th-

Scott Galloway 9:55 It looked like those-

Kara Swisher 9:56 I feel like Boston University is where she went.

Scott Galloway 9:57 It's, it's a contradiction. It looks like these kids are waiting to get home and s- and light up and maybe start doing some, you know, doing some beer bongs, but there's sisters everywhere. I did not, I still haven't figured out what's going on there, but it's a really impress... I was sur- really pleasantly surprised by BC. We then went to-

Kara Swisher 10:15 All right, we're gonna move us faster through this (laughs) because we're out of time. Go ahead.

Scott Galloway 10:19 We then went to UVA. I want to go to UVA.

Kara Swisher 10:23 I think it's nice.

Scott Galloway 10:24 I think it's the most beautiful campus in the nation. I think if we wanna restore prosperity and mating, I think men and women should each get a number, and whatever the number is, that's, you get married on the spot on the lawn. Everyone there is nice, everyone there is good-looking, everyone that's there is impressive. Just marry them all off.

Kara Swisher 10:41 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 10:41 Um, they should all just marry each other. They're never-

Kara Swisher 10:43 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 10:43 ... gonna find a talent pool like that, and the, the architecture.

Kara Swisher 10:47 It's a nice school. It's a nice school.

Scott Galloway 10:47 And then we went to UNC, and, uh, the terrible thing about teenagers is they start getting these terrible things called opinions.

Kara Swisher 10:55 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 10:56 We got to UNC and my son was like a dog off a leash in the park. He just started running around and going in buildings and-

Kara Swisher 11:03 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 11:04 ... something happened at UNC.

Kara Swisher 11:05 It's a great school.

Scott Galloway 11:05 UNC is basically-

Kara Swisher 11:07 Great school.

Scott Galloway 11:08 ... the hottest, smartest person, or the hottest, most imp- the most popular kid in class at all UNC schools have one thing in common. They leave North Carolina. The second hottest-

Kara Swisher 11:20 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 11:20 ... most impressive person goes to UNC.

Kara Swisher 11:22 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 11:23 They're just, uh, it's just got a great vibe.

Kara Swisher 11:26 Great school.

Scott Galloway 11:26 A great vibe.

Kara Swisher 11:27 Great vibe. Another school people love, the two schools where they talk about it to this day is UNC and Michigan. They love their schools. They love them.

Scott Galloway 11:35 Okay, I'm not exaggerating, and I'm, I'm a little bit scared to say this. I don't think it'll impact anything, but he walked to the top of the stairs... it's b- it... I couldn't tell the difference between UNC and UVA, except UVA looks like it has 50 or 60 wealthier donors.

Kara Swisher 11:47 Country clubby.

Scott Galloway 11:47 It's a little newer, it's a little shinier.

Kara Swisher 11:50 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 11:51 But they look like the same school to me.

Kara Swisher 11:53 Mm.

Scott Galloway 11:53 He walked to the top of the stairs, he turned around, and he looked out over the quad and he goes, "This is my school."

Kara Swisher 11:59 Oh, see, you know it. All right. Well, don't say anything.

Scott Galloway 12:01 And all I could think about, 8% out-of-state admissions rate.

Kara Swisher 12:05 Don't say it.

Scott Galloway 12:05 I don't know if it's your school.

Kara Swisher 12:05 Yeah. You need to move to North Carolina. That's what you need to do. (laughs)

Scott Galloway 12:08 I literally ChatGPT'd that. What, how do you establish North Carolina residence?

Kara Swisher 12:13 Residency.

Scott Galloway 12:13 It's not-

Kara Swisher 12:13 Yeah, yeah.

Scott Galloway 12:13 It's not easy. You actually have to live there.

Kara Swisher 12:15 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 12:16 Anyways.

Kara Swisher 12:16 Then you know who your congressper- your senator would be.

Scott Galloway 12:19 Um, it's, uh, it's two Republicans, but the governor's a great guy.

Kara Swisher 12:23 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 12:23 The governor's really impressive.

Kara Swisher 12:25 Yeah. All right. I'm gonna stop your college tour now 'cause we're dead. (laughs)

Scott Galloway 12:28 Anyways, that's my college tour.

Kara Swisher 12:29 Good. I'm glad. I'm-

Scott Galloway 12:30 Next week-

Kara Swisher 12:31 We're gla- we're glad (laughs) we're back. All right. We have a lot to... By the way, when you were gone, things happened, my friend. Lots of things happened.

Scott Galloway 12:38 Really? The world kept spinning?

Kara Swisher 12:39 The world did not keep spinning. The world is crashing. We're on a... Let's get right in, let's get

Kara Swisher 12:44 in.

Scott Galloway 12:44 Okay.

Kara Swisher 12:44 US markets are on a roller coaster as we record Monday morning following an epic two-day dive last week, epic in a bad term, that destroyed $6 trillion of market value thanks to Donald Trump's tariffs, which seem, like, inane in the way they were formulated. US stocks tumbled at the opening bell today, briefly surged following a report that Trump was considering a 90-day pause, which many are suggesting to him, including Jamie Dimon and others, um, from, uh, bankers and other people. The White House quickly called that report fake news, and the current Dow S&P 500 are currently back in the red. So, a lot of volatility to say the least. Who knows what Trump will do? In fact, he seems to be sticking by his guns. We'll get to winners and losers from these tariffs a little later, but we've seen overall, we've been seeing Goldman Sachs has raised the odds of a US recession of 45%. As Larry Summers put it, "This is the biggest self-inflicted wound we put on our economy in history." In terms of retaliation, China was quick to respond imposing a 34% tariff on all goods imported from the US starting on April 10th. Trump said he's gonna impose an additional 50% on China if they don't drop that 34% increase. The EU is... And of course, the TikTok deal went out the window. The EU is expected to present a united front in the coming days with a set of targeted countermeasures. Uh, uh, I... Let me, let me read, you know, a couple more things. There's retaliat- uh, retaliation moves Tre- uh, Treasury Secretary Scott Besson who looks unhappy, said over the weekend that more than 50 countries have started negotiations with the US since the tariff announcement, whatever, probably like the, the Penguins maybe. Though Trump also said, "My policies will never change." Um, I- I'll get to... Well, I'm just gonna... Howard Lutnick, who seems like the biggest clown of all besides Peter Navarro, which are the two faces of this, also offered his take on how tariffs will lead to a manufacturing resurgence in the US on Face the Nation. This, this quote, I literally was like, "This is the dumbest person I've ever met." So, uh, uh, let's go. Let's listen to that and then we'll get some reaction from you.

Howard Lutnick 14:37 Well, remember, the army of millions and millions of human beings screwing in little, little screws to make iPhones, that kind of thing is gonna come to America. It's gonna be automated. And great Americans, the trade craft of America is going to fix them, is gonna work on them. They're gonna be mechanics. There's gonna be HVAC specialists. There's gonna be electricians. The trade craft of America-

Kara Swisher 15:01 Yeah.

Howard Lutnick 15:01 ... our high school-educated Americans, the core to our workforce is going to have the greatest resurgence-

Kara Swisher 15:06 Yep.

Howard Lutnick 15:06 ... of jobs in the history of America to work on these high-tech factories, which are all coming to America.

Kara Swisher 15:13 He's an idiot. I don't know what else to say. The screws, the robots, whatever he said. That's sort of first reaction, 'cause then... A- a- and last thing, sorry. Mark Cuban, um, said one thing that tariffs are gonna spur is smuggling, a resurgence. Mark Cuban said that, um, and noted that-

Scott Galloway 15:28 In the Korean market.

Kara Swisher 15:29 ... maybe that's what the border patrol money is used for.

Scott Galloway 15:30 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 15:31 So, reaction?

Scott Galloway 15:32 Well, let's just talk about Apple. Americans don't wanna go into a factory and screw in little screws. Americans don't even wanna put on a hazmat suit and go to a regular factory. This notion that Americans are dying to go back to an assembly line is just not true. You can't get, you can't get Americans to work on a construction site. Do you think they're gonna show up for assembly line work? So, let's, let's talk specifically about Apple. iPhone costs about 12 or 13 hundred bucks. With the existing tariffs, they're going to 2,000. If we tried to produce them in the US, they'd be $3,500. They're not... (laughs) So first off, they're not coming back here. And all that's going to happen is the following. Fewer people are gonna buy fewer iPhones. It'll reduce Apple revenues by $30 to $40 billion to economists. It trades at eight times revenues. So, you're gonna wipe out a third of a trillion dollars. You're gonna have 401 (k) s go down. You're gonna have people be less confident in buying things. You're gonna have Apple employees and shareholders lose a lot of wealth. You're gonna have... I mean, y- you're in... We're not even talking about the second-tier effects, and that is one, we are thrusting people into the arms of China. And two, assume it just goes tit for tat. And any, let's stop talking, we know tariffs are bad. Let's assume that we reduce a billion dollars of, um, Samsung sales, right? I'm trying to think of an analog to Apple. And, uh, Apple sales go down a billion dollars. Samsung trades at, like, 1.2 to two times revenues, Apple trades at eight. So, you think, "Okay, it's bad, but we each lose a billion dollars in revenue and sales through prices or products that are less competitive 'cause they're more expensive." No, we lose $8 billion in market cap, they lose two. So, uh, the, the biggest beneficiary of global trade over the last 30 or 40 years have been, has been the US, because the products we export are high margin, high value-add manufactured products. We're the second-biggest manufacturer in the world. But what we do is we take cheap oil from Canada, we refine it, we take cheap products from other nations and, and earth minerals and we turn them into very expensive 55-point margin NVIDIA chips. So-

Kara Swisher 17:47 And services. Don't forget about services.

Scott Galloway 17:48 ... Tesla, another example. Toyota, really well-run company, trades at 0.7 times revenue. Tesla trades at eight times revenue. So, for, for every billion dollars in reductions in trade of Tesla, we lose eight billion in market cap, they lose 77 million. So, the echo effect here is so dramatic. And even beyond that, even beyond that, you're going to see, in my view, over the next five years a pretty serious destruction in the value of our stock markets. And it's for the following reasons.The U.S. market trades at a P/E multiple of 28 until Wednesday night, now it's down to 26. Germany is at 22 or 23, Japan at 18, China at 14. Now, why do our companies trade at a higher value for the same earnings, the same profits as, as companies in other nations? It's because we have this umbrella called the U.S. brand, and it means a lot of things. It means risk-aggressive capital, it means entrepreneurship, it means great universities-

Kara Swisher 18:58 Innovation.

Scott Galloway 18:58 ... great IP. It means immigration. It means rule of law and consistency. We're seen as a consistent trading partner. China doesn't have rule of law. They can put companies out of business right away. They can disappear people. Germany doesn't have as much risk capital, they're not as aggressive. The U.S. is losing, or has lost, two things. Rule of law, we've now decided to basically ignore court orders. We're doing one-offs and companies that make no sense. We're deporting people to El Salvador (laughs) for no reason at all. In addition, we're no longer seen as consistent. The epileptic, the epileptic sclerotic decisions of this guy... So what are you gonna have? You're gonna have a re-rating of the S&P, down from 26 to maybe 15. And here's the thing, all of our companies could continue to outperform the rest of the companies around the world-

Kara Swisher 19:50 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 19:50 ... and their stocks are still gonna go down.

Kara Swisher 19:52 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 19:52 If you invested in Latin American stocks, it didn't matter how well the company did. You cannot outrun multiple contraction, which is going to happen over the next five years.

Kara Swisher 20:03 So, so what, uh, so, uh, i- in a lot of this, a lot of the things is, and one of, and Stephanie Real point out cor- correctly, like, it's th- deciding on this one person who has a wrong math and the wrong idea between trade deficits and tariffs and the relationship, every single thing he's saying is actually wrong, and has this thing in his head that everything has to equal out, that if they buy this, we sell that. Like, we have to sell exactly, like, why don't they... And Stephen Miller, same thing. Why don't they buy American cars? Because Toyotas are better, you dumbass, and they make them here too. Like, the, the stupidity is outranked only by the, as you were saying, the rule of law, the lack of any, any consistency, the, the reliab- the ria- reliability of the U.S.. Um, e- one, what has to happen here? What do you imagine is gonna happen here? 'Cause there's now, suddenly Jamie Dimon is speaking out, Bill Ackman has suddenly found his, his balls again, and is saying something truthful, although he, he made sure he sucked up to Trump in the beginning of the, of his screed, which was about a nuclear winter in investing, essentially, um, or in the U.S. economy. Um,

Kara Swisher 21:10 w- what's your, what's your advice to people that are panicking right now and trying to figure out what to do with their investments? And then second, w- fir- no, first, what's gonna ha- what do, what do you think is gonna happen, and what's your advice for people if it continues in this way?

Scott Galloway 21:25 I feel more confident answering the latter than the former.

Kara Swisher 21:28 Okay.

Scott Galloway 21:28 I can't predict Donald Trump's actions. I think he is so... Look, the ad- the only adult in the Cabinet here that isn't on unsecure phones and apps, releasing attack plans to the rest of the world, and who has any understanding of economics... I've said this for a long time, the adult in the room is the Dow, the 10-year-

Kara Swisher 21:48 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 21:48 ... and the NASDAQ.

Kara Swisher 21:49 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 21:50 And if the NASDAQ keeps going down, they're probably going to have to respond. They're not gonna be able to jazz hands their way out of this. This, the argument they're making is the following, is that sometime- the market doesn't represent the real economy. That's actually a relatively good argument. The Dow Jones and NASDAQ are dangerous indicators because they give a false signal of prosperity, and a lot of people aren't impacted by the markets, they're impacted by things like inflation. The problem is, if you were to r- take minimum wage to 25 bucks an hour, or you were to increase taxes on corporations to try and have some fiscal sanity, that would take the markets down, but that would be an investment that would be worth it. This is just making products more expensive, making our products less competitive overseas, and convincing the rest of the world to reconfigure the supply chain to not include American businesses or professionals. That's just, that's just shooting yourself in the foot and then taking your gun and putting it in your mouth. So, but I have no idea what he's gonna do. I just don't get it. I think if this gets much worse, he's probably going to do some bullshit, like... So for example, Jamie Dimon's suggestion-

Kara Swisher 22:51 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 22:51 ... that's even worse, because it's the uncertainty that hurts-

Kara Swisher 22:54 90 days.

Scott Galloway 22:54 ... more than the tariffs.

Kara Swisher 22:55 What's he gonna do at 90 days, right?

Scott Galloway 22:56 We're gonna do the, we're gonna pull another TikTok?

Kara Swisher 22:59 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 22:59 It just... For God's sakes, we'd be better off if he just came up with some sort of, not this tariff level, but some sort of modest tariff, and let people plan their business. It's the uncertainty and the unpredictability. It's like being in a relationship with someone who's bipolar, speaking for a friend, you don't know who you're waking up next to.

Kara Swisher 23:16 Also, it, it's incorrect. One of the people who they base the, the, the, the, the, the theories on has written a piece in the New York Times saying, "They got this totally wrong, and they did the math wrong, and it's a quarter. What they should put here is a quarter, o- of what I said, you know, I said a quarter of what they're doing here, which means they don't know how to do math." That's the part that's frightening. They actually don't understand what they've done, like pushing the nuclear button, "What does this do?" kind of thing. I don't... That makes me more nervous.

Scott Galloway 23:46 The key to building a business, the team of the best players wins. Greatness is in the agency of other. Do you know these assclowns? Do you know where they came up with the formula for their tariffs?

Kara Swisher 23:55 I know-

Scott Galloway 23:56 If you type in "tariff," give me a tariff that e- that le- levels up our trade debt, which is a stupid... You want a trade deficit. But if you ask the question, "Put in place tariffs against every nation based on bringing equilibrium to our trade deficit," if you put it into ChatGPT, you come back with the exact formulas they came up with.

Kara Swisher 24:17 Yes. They're-

Scott Galloway 24:18 Their economic advisors-

Kara Swisher 24:19 Google-

Scott Galloway 24:19 ... are fucking turning to ChatGPT.

Kara Swisher 24:22 Are turning to-

Scott Galloway 24:23 Th- uh, let's go to your second question, what to do-

Kara Swisher 24:25 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 24:25 ... as an investor.

Kara Swisher 24:26 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 24:27 This is what you do. Nothing.And that is, whether it's-

Kara Swisher 24:32 Which is hard.

Scott Galloway 24:33 ... whether it's you getting a divorce, whether you lose someone you love, whether you get fired, you do not make big life decisions in the midst of emotional trauma, 'cause you are not thinking straight. In addition, tomorrow morning, he could announce, say you sell all your stocks today, he could announce tomorrow morning that he's t- he's removing all tariffs. He's capable of doing that and the markets could rip up 2,000 points and then what happens to your mental health when you sold at the bottom? Probably the worst piece of financial advice given in media was when Jim Cramer, who I don't think is, I don't think he's malice, I think he's a good guy trying to do the right thing. He told investors at the very bottom, "If you don't like this volatility you should sell your stocks." Within 14 min- months, we had recovered all of our losses. If you sold when Jim Cramer suggested, "You might want to think about getting out," you saw your net worth cut in half and even more damaging to your financial well-being was your mental well-being because you saw everybody else get to ex- back exactly where they were and you were the idiot that sold at the bottom.

Kara Swisher 25:35 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 25:35 This is what I'm doing. Since Q4 of last year, I just look at the S&P, it's trading at, A- Apple's trading at 38 times earnings and it's not growing. I have been selling down US stocks and I have been diversifying into Latin American and European and some Asian stocks 'cause if you're just invested in the US, you are not diversified and see above a re-rating down, a contraction in the multiple of US stocks, you may want to think about maybe taking some tax losses, harvesting some tax losses. Talk to people, talk to people, have a kitchen cabinet, don't do anything rash or out of emotion but I think if you were to diversify into European stocks, which by the way, you're not buying low and buying h- uh, selling low and buying high, European stocks have been hard, hit hard too.

Kara Swisher 26:21 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 26:21 You're a little bit more diversified, which I think is-

Kara Swisher 26:24 Right.

Scott Galloway 26:24 ... a vastly underrated-

Kara Swisher 26:27 Diversity.

Scott Galloway 26:27 ... strategy.

Kara Swisher 26:28 DEI. DEI that stock, per... All right. We're gonna go to a quick break and when we come back we're gonna talk a little bit more about the losers and some winners from the Trump tariffs.

Kara Swisher 26:37 Scott, we're back. The number of sectors took a beating from Trump's tariff and it's been particularly rough for tech, big tech. Um, in two days after the tariffs were announced, Apple dropped 16%, Meta fell 14, Amazon was down 13, nice job boys of going to the inauguration, that really paid off for you. The two-day drop wiped out $31 billion in net worth for Elon Musk and $23 billion for Jeff Bezos and $27 billion for Mark Zuckerberg, I feel so bad for them. How's the investment in Trump paying off now? As a reporter over the weekend a number of these folks, uh, want to go to Mar-a-Lago, uh, uh, to talk to him about this, I don't know if they've done it yet but this was the rumor that was going down, that they are really... And, and also bankers. Um, Elon doesn't seem to agree with Trump on tariffs and of course speaking his mind he said on Saturday that he hoped Europe and the US would ... affect them to zero tariff situation, effectively creating a free trade zone. Totally opposite he also had a couple of posts calling out Peter Navarro, Trump's trade advisor, who's such an idiot. All the, uh, uh, this I agree with Elon on, all this, uh, as EU regulators are reportedly preparing to inflict a billion dollar fine against X for breaking the law to combat illicit content and disinformation, that's separate. Um, this is interesting that he's doing that. The person that's looking more like a genius than ever, Warren Buffett, he didn't kiss the Trump wing, he's been growing his cash pile in the last year, he's currently sitting around $334 billion. Never doubt Warren Buffett, I guess. And then a f- also a few losers, fast fashion bra- uh, brands Shein, a Scott favorite, and Temu. Uh, Trump has closed the loophole that gave the tariff exemption on goods shipped from China valued under $800, I think it's called De Minimis or something like that. It no longer applies as of May 2nd, a lot of people didn't like th- this loophole. Um, without the loophole prices and orders could jump as much as 30%. Amazon might also take a hit 'cause they ran into the low cost storefront, uh, powered by, um, powered by, uh, China, uh, Chinese goods, cheap Chinese goods. One of the things that was really strange was, uh, Scott Besson talking about how Americans shouldn't buy cheap stuff anymore, too bad and that's too bad for you Scott, uh, 'cause you can afford cashmere all the time but that was another message they were sending out is we should get off our, our cheap goods, uh, uh, tradition.

Scott Galloway 28:49 So no longer shop at Walmart? The biggest employer-

Kara Swisher 28:51 Yeah, right, whatever, like-

Scott Galloway 28:53 ... in the US.

Kara Swisher 28:53 ... none of your fucking business, dudes. So talk a little bit about tech because also the last thing is tech, it sells a lot of services into Europe and in c- cloud computing, also so do the McKenzies of the world and that's where we have a trade, um, surplus in services from what I understand. So talk a little bit about the why it's impacting tech and, you know, sort of the, the, the, you see the real cracks from the Elons and the others, Bezos is probably apoplectic. Trump, um, Cook is apoplectic, I'm sure and, and a little, and Warren Buffett looks (laughs) he's 105 years old and he's once again the GOAT.

Scott Galloway 29:30 It's just... Okay, so let's look at Europe versus the US. We export NVIDIA chips, they, NVIDIA trades at 24 times revenues. For every billion dollars they sell in additional chips to other markets, uh, institutional investors and employees of NVIDIA register a $24 billion gain. Uh, California gets enormous tax revenue from the incremental gains of shareholder value. When Mercedes exports Mercedes into the United States they trade at .23, if they lose a billion dollars in business, they lose $23 million in market cap. 23 million versus 24 billion in lost market cap?

Kara Swisher 30:13 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 30:14 We, we have taken... Global trade has been great for the world, it's made the world more prosperous and to be clear, uh, we haven't done a good job of protecting the people who get hurt, some people get hurt. There are certain industries, South Korea's done a good job of protecting nascent industries strategic to them with tariffs. Tariffs can be used. These blanket tariffs, uh, or let me put it this way, the gr- one of the greatest increases... in global prosperity over the last 50 years, you- it would be hard press, you might think, "Well, it's the world order where democracies are bound together under the umbrella of, of US prosperity and NATO and military might. We have kept the peace. Wars are very destructive to economics." But at the top of the list would probably be global trade.

Kara Swisher 30:56 Global trade.

Scott Galloway 30:57 Find out what you can produce best at the lowest price and trade with someone who's really good at producing something else-

Kara Swisher 31:03 Hmm.

Scott Galloway 31:03 ... and you both get better products at a lower price and you have a greater quality of life. So there is, it- it- it's not only reduces the prosperity of the world, it massively, there's no nation that benefits more from global trade because our products are high margin, high value add. When Canada ships energy into the US, we then add value to it, we refine it. We turn it into higher grade petroleum and we sell it at triple the price to other people.

Kara Swisher 31:34 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 31:35 We- we-

Kara Swisher 31:36 As you noted.

Scott Galloway 31:36 People... We are in the business of high value add, high margin, rule of law, IP driven, that creates so much revenue

Scott Galloway 31:45 and shareholder value.

Kara Swisher 31:45 So what, what about this argument that we're gonna bring domestic manufacturing back here? And everyone, even-

Scott Galloway 31:50 (sighs)

Kara Swisher 31:50 ... even the crazy stations are like, "That's gonna take 10 years." If, if, and they're not gonna do it.

Scott Galloway 31:54 It'll never happen.

Kara Swisher 31:55 It'll never happen.

Scott Galloway 31:56 It'll never happen.

Kara Swisher 31:56 It'll never happen.

Scott Galloway 31:56 And first off, first off-

Kara Swisher 31:58 We don't want it to happen.

Scott Galloway 31:59 ... we're not just, we're not just a taco s- truck with masseuses, we're the second-largest manufacturer in the world.

Kara Swisher 32:05 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 32:05 But we manufacture AI chips. We, we manufacture really high value add products that have decent margins. We have purposefully outsourced low, low value add, low margin, low shareholder value products. And American consumers, I'm sorry, American workers don't want to go back into factories. 98% of businesses that sell into global trade are small and medium-sized businesses. 40 million jobs are related to or depend on global trade. And people say, "Well, 40 million or 355, that's not that bad." Only 150 million people in the US work. So (laughs) the, the notion we're gonna bring back, we don't want to bring back. I mean, y- you need, what you need are great, great middle class, well-paying jobs, vocational. You need more people trained to install energy-efficient HVAC heaters at 30 bucks an hour. We need that. But there is not a line to go work on a factory floor in Lansing, Michigan.

Kara Swisher 33:12 Right.

Scott Galloway 33:12 This isn't what people do. Try and renovate a house and see how much people want to actually build a home that were born here.

Kara Swisher 33:18 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 33:18 They don't.

Kara Swisher 33:19 Guess who wants to do that? Immigrants.

Scott Galloway 33:21 Exa- exactly right. So this notion, this notion that everyone's lining up to go work at a factory job in the Midwest on an assembly line, yeah, g-

Kara Swisher 33:31 It's just, it's such a, it's like an an- it's like an '80s guy idea of the world. Like, seriously. And they, I get, l- you know, I do actually get the arguments about, um, you know, sort of hollowing out American manufacturing by doing cheaper goods abroad, and the, going too far with free trade and not, you know, retraining people. There's great arguments to be made about trying to figure out new ways for people to have jobs. But this way, the, the idea, "We're gonna bring back factory..." Every time Howard Lutnick gets on the air, I'm like, "Are you living in a different century?" Like, it's just, it, yeah, it's, it's been stuck in Trump's head for 40 years. And what's astonishing is the Republicans are like, "Let's listen to the President." W- w- let's not.

Scott Galloway 34:16 He knows, he's playing 4D chess. We just don't get it.

Kara Swisher 34:19 Yes. No, that's not what's happening. He's stuck in the '80s. He's stuck in some era that no longer exists. And wouldn't it be great if the wom- women didn't vote and, and m- there was no such thing as we do and I could do whatever I felt like? This is a different era. And what's, uh, what, what, what kind of amazes me is that it hasn't gotten through to, that the Republicans are still sticking with this. Such a test of MAGA. I've never seen anything... This has got to be the ultimate cult test. Will you take the, will you take the Kool-Aid? Will you actually drink the Kool-Aid?

Scott Galloway 34:54 We're, we're-

Kara Swisher 34:55 Kind of thing.

Scott Galloway 34:55 ... so narcissistic, we refuse to acknowledge that the rest of the world is a pretty interesting case study in history.

Kara Swisher 35:01 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 35:02 And the '50s and '60s, Latin America embraced protectionist policies, their economy did not grow. They opened up, their economy boomed. They, the last time we had tariffs like this, they weren't even as big as this.

Kara Swisher 35:15 Right.

Scott Galloway 35:16 Was in 1930, the Smoot-Hawley Tariff Act.

Kara Swisher 35:19 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 35:19 Those tariffs weren't as big as these. And what was, what was the impact there? It widened the, it worsened the Great Depression. Instead of boosting the economy and creating jobs, by 1933, real US GDP had dropped by a third. Do you know what would happen in the US if GDP dropped by a third and the unemployment rate, which is at 4%, hit 25%? I was really disappointing, really disappointed. I watched all the Sunday morning programs.

Kara Swisher 35:48 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 35:48 Margaret Brennan did a good job. The rest of them clearly didn't take an economics class because they couldn't ask a basic question. Name a country, there are 159 countries, there are two centuries of economic, modern economic history. Name a country where this level of tariffs has worked.

Kara Swisher 36:04 It hasn't.

Scott Galloway 36:05 It hasn't.

Kara Swisher 36:06 It hasn't. And-

Scott Galloway 36:07 It backfires. It's the ultimate own goal.

Kara Swisher 36:08 The fact that they're going, "Let's wait and see." Like, no, let's not wait and see what happens when you inject bleach into our veins.

Scott Galloway 36:14 (laughs)

Kara Swisher 36:14 Let's not wait and see. Uh, we have to move on, but, because I, you know, one of the things that, that I want

Kara Swisher 36:19 to talk about is, is this is a gift to China. This is-

Scott Galloway 36:21 100%.

Kara Swisher 36:21 If China needed a way out of their economic doldrums, we've just handed them the key. Like, "Here you go."

Scott Galloway 36:27 Well, well, let me just ask you one question. I, I-

Kara Swisher 36:29 Sure.

Scott Galloway 36:29 This is a sincere question.

Kara Swisher 36:30 All right.

Scott Galloway 36:32 If they can, if they can have a conspiracy that in the basement, which doesn't exist, of a pizza joint, Hillary Clinton is drinking the blood of children they're sacrificing-

Kara Swisher 36:40 Even if it doesn't-

Scott Galloway 36:40 ... I can go semi-conspiracy theory.

Kara Swisher 36:42 Okay, go ahead. Let's hear it.

Scott Galloway 36:45 Putin and Xi-

Kara Swisher 36:47 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 36:47 ... have each put $10 billion into the Trump coin, or they've committed to it.

Kara Swisher 36:51 Hmm, I don't think he's doing it.

Scott Galloway 36:51 You're gonna be the wealthiest man in history.

Kara Swisher 36:53 Hmm. But he's old. No.

Scott Galloway 36:56 You're the wealthiest man in history.

Kara Swisher 36:58 No.

Scott Galloway 36:58 But you need to do the following things. You need to withdraw from Ukraine. You need to fragment the strongest US/Western democracy alliances in history to give us license to do whatever the fuck we want.

Kara Swisher 37:09 So he's the ultimate Manchurian Candidate-

Scott Galloway 37:12 And-

Kara Swisher 37:12 ... is what you're saying.

Scott Galloway 37:13 And-

Kara Swisher 37:13 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 37:13 ... we need you to thrust the biggest trade, and China's all about money.

Kara Swisher 37:16 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 37:16 We need you to thrust the biggest trading partners into our arms. We need you to get Japan and South Korea to start talking to us again. If it was not Trump-Vance-

Kara Swisher 37:25 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 37:25 This is the question. If it was not Trump-Vance, but it was Putin-Xi, what would be any fucking different-

Kara Swisher 37:34 Hmm.

Scott Galloway 37:34 ... than what has happened over the last two months?

Kara Swisher 37:36 Well, it seems too complicated. I just think he's stupid. We should've-

Scott Galloway 37:40 That's-

Kara Swisher 37:40 We should have hired the-

Scott Galloway 37:41 That's-

Kara Swisher 37:42 ... the smart-

Scott Galloway 37:42 That's a solid plan B. (laughs)

Kara Swisher 37:44 (laughs) We should have hired the smart woman.

Scott Galloway 37:46 But that's my question.

Kara Swisher 37:47 Or him. (laughs)

Scott Galloway 37:47 If- if Putin and Xi had been president and vice president-

Kara Swisher 37:51 Yeah. Yeah.

Scott Galloway 37:51 ... what would they have done differently?

Kara Swisher 37:53 I don't know. I- I- I agree. I- I think he's just so stupid. I just, stupidity takes the cake here, and he's stupid, and he's addled, and he's gotta go. He's gotta go. I don't know what else to say.

Scott Galloway 38:03 Let's- let's surrender Ukraine and side with our enemies. Let's pretend-

Kara Swisher 38:06 Right.

Scott Galloway 38:06 ... you won the Cold War, even though we won it.

Kara Swisher 38:08 Except he has been talking about this for 40 years. It's been like a- like a- a hair up his ass for 40 year... (laughs) Like, he has been talking about this. So I feel like he's now like, "I'm gonna do this finally and see what happ- I'm pushing this button, and I'm seeing what's happening." I don't think it's possible.

Scott Galloway 38:21 I'm gonna ask ChatGPT. (laughs)

Kara Swisher 38:23 A reminder, we're recording this on Monday morning. Who knows what Trump will do in the next few hours or days or, really, minutes? All right, Scott, let's go on a quick break, and when we come back, the TikTok deadline gets postponed yet again. President

Kara Swisher 38:37 Trump delayed the ban on TikTok for 75 days for a second time. How ridiculous. A steal for the sale was reportedly close until Trump made his tariffs announcement, causing China to pull out of the negotiations, obviously. Oracle, Blackstone, and Andreessen Horowitz, all friends of Donald Trump, were reportedly involved. Trump has previously suggested he could lessen tariffs on China in exchange for a deal. I'm sure China's just thrilled to hear that. I don't know why China would do anything. Like, maybe they will, if they- if they want it. I don't know why you- you would do anything. Um, so talk... Let's do a very brief thing about this because it's, um... I- I- I think it's just gonna sit there in limbo and just bump along, right? I don't... There's no deal here. They're gonna try to bring it under 20%. I think that's the amount, the ownership of China, or Chinese, the Chinese government and, or Chinese investors.

Scott Galloway 39:27 Yeah. Let you go first here. What are your thoughts going into, uh-

Kara Swisher 39:30 I don't know what's gonna happen here. It feels like a story from the 1980s too. I mean, I think it's n- n- I think eventually it'll have some convoluted thing that's not gonna make a difference or keep us safer in any way. I think they need to make the case of why it is dangerous. I never... I- I sort of like the law but didn't like the... I didn't feel they made their case. And at the same time, I'm absolutely certain the Chinese are manipulating it. (laughs) Like, I don't even feel like that. So, I- I- I think, you know, I think- I think it's a- it's eventually a dwindling company, right? It will... Like, over time if it's not focusing on this product... I'm in this new zone, Scott, of like, the reason things fail is 'cause products suck. Like, that's, you know, and maybe 'cause I had lunch with-

Scott Galloway 40:12 Products are the bomb again. Yeah.

Kara Swisher 40:13 You know... What? I'm sorry?

Scott Galloway 40:14 Well, the, uh, '45 to '95 was the brand era, but digital unlock around product is the new bomb again. It sounds more like this problem.

Kara Swisher 40:19 Pro- I, uh, like, I'm like, if- if Tesla made great cars-

Scott Galloway 40:22 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 40:22 ... people would still buy them even though he's a joke.

Scott Galloway 40:24 Yeah, and no advertising. Yeah, they don't advertise.

Kara Swisher 40:26 Right. I- I really do think that. I'm thinking to myself. I use Amazon, and I don't want to use it 'cause I've... I'm really irritated by Jeff Bezos, but it's a great product.

Scott Galloway 40:33 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 40:33 And it's really hard.

Scott Galloway 40:34 That's right.

Kara Swisher 40:34 Like, I think if- if it gets the ball off of-

Scott Galloway 40:36 How do you think I feel using Starlink to talk-

Kara Swisher 40:38 I know.

Scott Galloway 40:38 ... call you on FaceTime?

Kara Swisher 40:39 I know. I know. Um, I think it's just really... I think it- it- it... The problems that this will suffer as a product because of all this mishigas. And so, I- I- I don't feel kids talk... I mean, they're gonna move on to the next thing. That's what I feel like. And- and eventually they'll come up with some convoluted way where Marc Andreessen gets even richer than he already is and more toxic and won't make any sense, and it won't protect Americans better, and China will continue to domi- I mean, just to me, this has been s- all of this has been a gimme to China, just one big gimme to a government that does not want us to dominate. At all.

Scott Galloway 41:15 So-

Kara Swisher 41:16 That's all.

Scott Galloway 41:17 ... as- as it relates to TikTok, I just don't think we would ever let C- CBS, NBC, and ABC-

Kara Swisher 41:22 Nope.

Scott Galloway 41:22 ... be owned by the Kremlin in the '60s. I think it's fucking insane to have-

Kara Swisher 41:25 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 41:26 ... TikTok. I think we're raising a generation of civic, military, and business leaders who hate America. 50% of people our age feel good about America, one in 10 young people. And, uh, I might not, I might even be wrong, but just from a trade symmetry standpoint, there are no media companies in China and we can't-

Kara Swisher 41:42 Mm-hmm. Agreed.

Scott Galloway 41:42 ... afford to have this. Uh, the average 14-year-old boy in America is spending 17 hours on a media platform controlled by the CCP.

Kara Swisher 41:51 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 41:52 It's just not a good idea.

Kara Swisher 41:53 No.

Scott Galloway 41:53 So it should be banned. Now, the second thing, and this goes back to the notion that you can't outrun multiple contraction, which we're about to incur, the mother of all multiple contraction, is remember when Trump hated TikTok? And then remember when President Biden had a bipartisan law passed? And none of it fucking means anything anymore.

Kara Swisher 42:12 Doesn't. Doesn't.

Scott Galloway 42:13 Because if the l- one of the largest donors to the Trump campaign, Jeffrey Assas, also happens to be an investor in TikTok and a bunch of crypto bros and Silicon Valley bros who are also investors, he can do all this bullshit-

Kara Swisher 42:26 Right.

Scott Galloway 42:27 ... I'm in, I'm out, I'm your girlfriend, I'm not your girlfriend, I want to break up, I don't want to break up. Why would anyone take us seriously? Why would-

Kara Swisher 42:34 It's so ridiculous.

Scott Galloway 42:35 Why... China- China is like, uh, "Yeah, fine." China's not gonna back down to the US. Unless they can figure out a way, unless they have all sorts of assets, which is Latin for spies, within Oracle-... and they feel like they can keep the asset in the US as an espio- espionage and propaganda tool and have their cake and eat it too, they're just gonna play slow ball because this guy will change his mind next week. Or maybe General Atlantic partners with Sequoia Capital, who would have sex with their sisters for a nickel, will put pressure on Trump and offer him-

Kara Swisher 43:11 (laughs) What are you on now? I knew you'd bring in White Lotus, but go ahead. Yeah.

Scott Galloway 43:14 Well, that's unfair. Uh, uh, they'd have, they'd fuck their mothers for a nickel, I think that's more accurate. Anyways, these folks, these folks-

Kara Swisher 43:22 Now.

Scott Galloway 43:22 ... now run the White House.

Kara Swisher 43:24 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 43:24 And so th- this is... TikTok just sort of represents, um, one, a national security threat that we just don't take seriously because-

Kara Swisher 43:33 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 43:34 ... because our kids like it and we don't understand it. And Bi- I, I, I remember when you took me to the White House, I remember thinking... And they were like, "Oh, we're not on TikTok." And I'm like, "That's a bad idea. You don't realize what's going on." (laughs)

Kara Swisher 43:45 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 43:45 You don't, you don't see what's happening to our kids here. Your kid can see a beheading and then a dance video and then something showing, you know, viewpoints on Hamas and Israel or viewpoints... A bunch of people like... I'm even part of it. I see my angriest videos get the most play on TikTok.

Kara Swisher 44:04 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 44:05 They get dialed up. And that's not just-

Kara Swisher 44:06 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 44:07 ... TikTok, it's everything else. But why on earth, why on earth would we allow missiles to be planted on an island, Cuba, 60 miles offshore the US coast, even if they claim they will never use them against us? Like, no, we're just not gonna put up with that. And then again, it's the inconsistency-

Kara Swisher 44:22 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 44:22 ... that's gonna take our prosperity down.

Kara Swisher 44:23 I think... It doesn't matter because we're giving them advantage in this d- tariff thing. Now we've given them an even bigger thing. Like-

Scott Galloway 44:28 Oh, biggest winner here.

Kara Swisher 44:30 Winner. Winner, winner-

Scott Galloway 44:31 The biggest winner is China.

Kara Swisher 44:31 ... chicken dinner. China. China, China. And they were f- really losing.

Scott Galloway 44:37 Hands down. Biggest-

Kara Swisher 44:37 They were really losing.

Scott Galloway 44:37 Biggest winner out of all this, hands down.

Kara Swisher 44:40 Hands down.

Scott Galloway 44:40 All of a sudden, Canada's like... Chinese are buying up all the real estate in Vancouver.

Kara Swisher 44:44 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 44:44 This is what every... China-

Kara Swisher 44:46 Everybody's friend.

Scott Galloway 44:46 Every Chinese diplomat and businessman is working. I've done a lot of business in China.

Kara Swisher 44:52 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 44:52 They're all working overtime and they're going to European capitals. They're going everywhere and saying... They may say, "You may not agree with us, but you know what? We're good partners."

Kara Swisher 45:02 Lifeline for China. This has been-

Scott Galloway 45:03 We'll handle it.

Kara Swisher 45:03 ... such a gift to China. Anyway-

Scott Galloway 45:05 It's a... Unbelievable gift.

Kara Swisher 45:06 That's our feelings. It's a conspiracy theory.

Scott Galloway 45:07 It's an unbelievable gift to Vice President Xi.

Kara Swisher 45:10 Xi. Absolutely. Um, all right, Scott, one more quick break. We'll be back for wins and fails.

Kara Swisher 45:16 Okay, Scott, uh, we're gonna do wins and fails. I think I shall go first. I think win, I really enj- uh... I love a protest. I thought these hands-off protests were... Everyw- every city was full. I loved seeing them in Turkey. I love, like, people turning out. I don't know if they work or not, but DC and New York, 100,000 attendees each. They were... Amanda went down, I did not. And, like, average people, it was not like the professional protesters that you might see. Um, uh, themes were, were administration's attacks on Social Security, the layoffs, deportations, Elon Musk, of course. Uh, I love the signs. I... They make me laugh. IKEA has better cabinets, which I (laughs) always find they really do. Wisconsin hates Elon so much, it could be one of his kids. Um, uh, abort, uh, unwanted, uh, presidencies and now we're all the... We're, we're all, uh, we're all the couch now. Um, Trump, of course, spent the weekend golfing. I mean, just the visuals couldn't be any better. And I, I kind of just like it. It gets people in- emboldened. I don't know if protests matter, but this one had a, had a real moment- momentum feel, which is nice. And we'll see if that matters or not. For the fail, so obvious, uh, 60 Minutes, which is... You know, people talk about the decline of traditional media. People who do real reporting, really, we owe them a debt of gratitude. They did a story on Sunday on, uh, Venezuelan migrants who got deported to prison in El Salvador, and their reporting found no criminal records for 75% of those migrants. These people were taken off the street, many of them with legal, um, legally here, and put in a prison. It's literally like a, a, a... you know, a, a... just a- a movie. It's a movie. It feels like a movie. This is so cruel. And the people who are doing this to people and, and putting people in prison without any criminal record and sending them to another country they're not even from, uh, I hope they go to jail themselves at some point. And, and s- pretending they can't take them back, I just... uh, I, I cannot... uh, this is grotesque in every single way. Grotesque. So that's a re- it's, like, such an embarrassment. And people aren't paying attention to it 'cause of all this stuff about the tariffs and the stock market, but boy, what a human rights, um, what a human rights disaster for us as our country. We have no ability to say we're a good people if we're doing things like that.

Scott Galloway 47:39 I like both of those. Um, I'm an ageist. I think all of these old people need to go away.

Kara Swisher 47:46 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 47:46 I think that, uh, Biden's inability and the people around him, uh, their lack of backbone to acknowledge that biology always wins is... Uh, if we've decided the prefrontal cortex of a 34-year-old is too immature to have that person have access to nuclear weapons, then for God's sakes, an 80-year-old (laughs) shouldn't have their finger on the button. And my win is, the market is responding. A Democrat, I think it's Saikat Chakrabarti, who was the comms director for 35-year-old, uh, former boss Representative Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, um, has decided that he's going to challenge Rep Nancy Pelosi, or he did cha- he did challenge her. For Chakrabarti, 39-year-old software engineer turned political operative, he-Um, you know, I like seeing, uh, young people rising to the, um, challenge. In Los Angeles, 37-year-old Jake Rachlev announced last week that he was running for the seat of his former boss, Rep. Brad Sherman, who's 70. Brad, Representative Sherman, you served your country well. Now collect a gold watch and go f- play fucking golf. You're too old. In Michigan, State Senator Mallidy, Mallory McM- McMorrow, 38, launched a bid for her state's open US Senate seat by talking about her experiences as a millennial. I mean, there are young people stepping up here. In Illinois, Kat-

Kara Swisher 49:12 I saw her at MSNBC. I was on Jen Psaki's show on Sunday and I ran into, uh, Mallory. She's really impressive.

Scott Galloway 49:19 Very impressive.

Kara Swisher 49:20 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 49:20 Illi- And in Illinois, Kat Abubakar. That's the problem with all these young names, their names are too fucking complicated.

Kara Swisher 49:27 Oh, no.

Scott Galloway 49:27 Change your name to like Smith, just old-

Kara Swisher 49:29 (laughs) Oh, God.

Scott Galloway 49:30 Change your name to Smith.

Kara Swisher 49:30 And, we're out.

Scott Galloway 49:31 You'll get more votes. You'll get more votes.

Kara Swisher 49:33 And, oh my God. (laughs)

Scott Galloway 49:34 Anyways, uh, Kat, I like that. That's who I'm gonna call her, Rep. Kat.

Kara Swisher 49:39 Okay.

Scott Galloway 49:39 Uh, Rep. Rep. Jan, uh, Schakowsky. God, what is it with these people?

Kara Swisher 49:44 Oh my God. Really?

Scott Galloway 49:45 Uh, who is eight-

Kara Swisher 49:45 You're not doing this.

Scott Galloway 49:46 Oh, wait.

Kara Swisher 49:46 Go ahead.

Scott Galloway 49:47 She's running for the seat of Rep. J- Jan Schakowsky, who is 80. Go home!

Kara Swisher 49:51 Oh yeah, she's a-

Scott Galloway 49:52 Go-

Kara Swisher 49:52 She's an influencer, but yeah. That's really-

Scott Galloway 49:54 Go home, Rep. Jan Schakowsky.

Kara Swisher 49:56 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 49:57 80. Go. Home.

Kara Swisher 49:58 Good congressperson, let me say, for many years. But go ahead.

Scott Galloway 50:01 Okay. So, uh-

Kara Swisher 50:03 Yeah, I agree. Honey, I'm outta here in-

Scott Galloway 50:05 Senator Schumer.

Kara Swisher 50:06 ... 10 years.

Scott Galloway 50:06 Senator Schumer, you're 74.

Kara Swisher 50:08 Right.

Scott Galloway 50:08 Someone this weekend offered me 10 million bucks if I put in 10 million to run for president. I'm like, "I'm too fucking old." You need someone-

Kara Swisher 50:14 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 50:14 ... who's gonna work 19-

Kara Swisher 50:16 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 50:16 Bill Clinton slept five hours a night for eight years.

Kara Swisher 50:20 Yeah. All right.

Scott Galloway 50:20 Because he was in his 40s-

Kara Swisher 50:21 So fail old people. Old people.

Scott Galloway 50:23 Okay. We need... My win is young people stepping up to the plate. If you're-

Kara Swisher 50:28 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 50:28 And I always like to put action by the root. If you're a young, a young, uh, moderate running against someone who just is only there because they're a fucking incumbent, email me, scott@stern.nyu and I'm in.

Kara Swisher 50:42 Okay.

Scott Galloway 50:42 I'm in for the maximum campaign contribution. I'm voting for youth and new ideas and vigor.

Kara Swisher 50:48 Right.

Scott Galloway 50:49 Um, okay. My, my fail is the following.

Kara Swisher 50:52 Oh, all right. Okay. Go ahead.

Scott Galloway 50:54 On Thursday and Friday I lost, I don't know, somewhere between $6 and $8 million.

Kara Swisher 51:01 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 51:02 I got some of it back as I shorted AI stocks, so I probably lost four to five million bucks. That's the bad news. The good news is I am so blessed and privileged because of the underpinnings of a, an America that offers prosperity, offers opportunities to the children of single immigrant mothers who lived and died of sec- rule of law, great entrepreneurial culture. It really doesn't matter. I'm, I'm fine. I know it matters to a lot of people. I know I'm flexing and bragging about my wealth, but it does have a point. My disappointment is that, okay, we now live in a nation where we've decided to side with autocrats, not democracies pushing back on autocrats. We now live in a nation where it's possible that you can go to jail if you don't narc on someone who is planning to get an abortion. We live in a country where it is feasible, where a 14-year-old who is raped has to carry her child to term. We live in a country where a woman could die of sepsis in an emergency room parking lot because she's bleeding out because the medical professionals are too scared to perform a necessary abortion. We live in a country where we now have a president who's opened a Swiss banking account where anyone can put money in, in exchange for political favors and not have to disclose it. That is the country are, we are in. And here's what money has done-

Kara Swisher 52:33 You left out law firms, but go ahead.

Scott Galloway 52:35 Oh, and we can intimidate law firms into agreeing, into agreeing not to represent the president's adversaries. I mean, that's the whole point of the, that's the whole fucking point of our legal system. Paul, Weiss, go fuck yourself. Jesus Christ. Don't... Call yourself, you ha- you should never call yourself an American law firm. Your headquarters is fucking Moscow meets Mar-a-Lago. What cowards. And by the way, guest speaker Bob Iger. That's the country we're in. And where do people turn up? Where do people decide, "That's it, we have to go to Mar-a-Lago"?

Kara Swisher 53:15 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 53:15 It's when the markets are down 10%.

Kara Swisher 53:17 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 53:17 Well, guess what?

Kara Swisher 53:18 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 53:18 That's about number 30 on my fucking list of what terrible things have happened to this country. So look-

Kara Swisher 53:25 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 53:25 I'll take it. I'll take it. But when it, when it's, when it's all about the markets and not about-

Kara Swisher 53:33 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 53:33 ... people's rights, not about humanity, not about coarseness and cruelty, not about... The whole point of a constitution, the whole point of a democracy is you protect the lower 50. You and I are gonna be just fine. And I understand your concerns about your family. I think that is-

Kara Swisher 53:49 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 53:49 Those are real concerns. The majority of people in the top 1%, we're gonna be fine. The whole point of a constitution and democracy is you have to protect the bottom 50. And what is all of a sudden the red line? The NASDAQ is down.

Kara Swisher 54:06 I know, it's stupid.

Scott Galloway 54:06 That's what has people wild.

Kara Swisher 54:07 That's why I was like, Bill Ackman, go fuck yourself. Go-

Scott Galloway 54:10 That's the red line.

Kara Swisher 54:11 That's the red line.

Scott Galloway 54:13 Right?

Kara Swisher 54:13 That's the red line. Yep, yep.

Scott Galloway 54:14 Oh, we're-

Kara Swisher 54:15 All right.

Scott Galloway 54:15 We're, we're, (laughs) we're okay with murderous autocrats and 14-year-olds carrying babies to term, but if the NASDAQ goes down-

Kara Swisher 54:22 I love this liberal Scott.

Scott Galloway 54:24 That's too much. You know what?

Kara Swisher 54:25 I love this libe- I'm gonna go ahead and go have a drink. (laughs)

Scott Galloway 54:26 On Thursday or Friday, the market's going down, I could give a flying fuck.

Kara Swisher 54:31 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 54:31 I'll go, I'll... Take the markets down another 10%, start protecting the lower 50.

Kara Swisher 54:37 Ah. I love this Scott, the lesbian from San Francisco, Scott Gallery.

Scott Galloway 54:40 There you go.

Kara Swisher 54:40 I give you people. All right. We wanna hear from you. Send us our quest- uh, your questions about business, tech, or whatever's on your mind. Go to nymag.com/pivot to submit a question for the show or call 855-51-PIVOT. I love your-... s- verve, Scott. Elsewhere in the Scott and Kara universe, this week I spoke with Jeff Lawson, owner of The Onion. Oh, what a great guy this guy is, um, in terms of what he, what, what he's done there. Let's listen to a clip.

Ben Collins 55:04 We have worked to create a environment where people will come to defend us.

Kara Swisher 55:08 Right.

Ben Collins 55:09 In a way that they don't necessarily come to defend the New York Times, because it's believed that New York Times can defend itself. It's a big organization. The little old Onion, when you go after satire, and it shows just how small... I'm gonna make a penis joke. Just how small your penis is, when you come after satire, I think people rise up and they, they say, "That's enough." Like, "We're gonna, we're gonna defend this little thing called The Onion," because satire is highly protected speech.

Kara Swisher 55:31 Correct.

Ben Collins 55:32 Um, and The Onion is a beloved brand and a beloved publication.

Kara Swisher 55:35 Anyway, really interesting guy. He's, you know, he's trying to keep it, uh... I love The Onion, I think they do a great job and he's sort of saved it in a lot of ways. Um, anyway, his name's Jeff Lawson, it was great. And he loves Scott Gallery, lo- so he had to make one penis joke.

Scott Galloway 55:47 I love The Onion.

Kara Swisher 55:48 Yeah, I know. He's like-

Scott Galloway 55:49 The, there are hard part, the, the, the hard part though is occasionally I read The Onion, I'm like, "Is that actual news today?"

Kara Swisher 55:53 I know, exactly. (laughs)

Scott Galloway 55:55 (laughs) I don't know the difference.

Kara Swisher 55:56 They're doing all kinds of cool things and, and they're, um... He really did save it, um, in a lot of ways, um, just a small, little contribution. He's a billionaire too. He was at Twilio, he had a big activist investor thing, sort of toss him out, but really interesting guy. Um, okay, that's the show. Thanks for listening to Pivot. Be sure to like and subscribe to our YouTube channel. We will be back on Friday. Scott, read us out and be very indignant, I like it.

Scott Galloway 56:22 Today's show was produced by Laura Naiman, Zoe Marcus, Taylor Griffin and Kate Gallagher. Ernie Untertodt entered into this episode. Julian Belard edited the video. Thanks also to Drew Beros, Miss Averio and Dan Shulon. Nishat Kurwa is Vox Media's executive producer of audio. Make sure you subscribe to the show wherever you listen to podcasts. Thanks for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media. You can subscribe to the magazine at nymag.com/pod. We'll be back later this week for another breakdown of all things tech and business. Don't you often see someone and think, "What's their story? What's their life? How did he end up on a park bench without shoes, feeding pigeons and speaking to himself?" University of Chicago. I was on a college tour, Kara.