Trump's Tariffs and Tirades Fuel Market Mayhem | Pivot

Scott Galloway 0:00 All we have done here is massively erode brand America. It's gone from freedom, generosity, military might, prosperity, risk aggressiveness, opportunity, rule of law, to toxic uncertainty, and that, that brand does not command margins. It commands negative margin. (instrumental music)

Kara Swisher 0:26 Hi, everyone. This is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Kara Swisher.

Scott Galloway 0:30 And I'm Scott Galloway.

Kara Swisher 0:32 How you doing, Scott? Guess what? Guess what?

Scott Galloway 0:34 What, Kara?

Kara Swisher 0:34 We are Webby winners-

Scott Galloway 0:36 Oh, my God.

Kara Swisher 0:36 ... once again.

Scott Galloway 0:37 Oh, my God.

Kara Swisher 0:38 Pivot.

Scott Galloway 0:38 I just wanna thank the Academy.

Kara Swisher 0:40 Okay. The Pivot won the Webby Award and the People's Choice Award-

Scott Galloway 0:43 Both.

Kara Swisher 0:43 ... both of them.

Scott Galloway 0:44 Yeah, yeah.

Kara Swisher 0:45 We like that the people love us for the be- for the best-

Scott Galloway 0:48 And the judges, right?

Kara Swisher 0:49 ... business podcast. And the judges, yeah, the judges-

Scott Galloway 0:50 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 0:50 ... and the people. We've got, we've got a lot to get to today, but let's take a moment... And also, you won for Profy. What did you win over there?

Scott Galloway 0:56 Uh, not... We won, uh, for Profy & Markets, or for Raging Moderates, we were an honoree, which just means-

Kara Swisher 1:03 Mm-hmm.

Narrator 1:03 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 1:03 ... please send in your $1,300 a year next year to be considered for something.

Kara Swisher 1:07 Yeah, no, no.

Scott Galloway 1:07 And then, by the way, this business, we should be in the awards business.

Kara Swisher 1:10 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 1:10 This is such a racket.

Kara Swisher 1:11 But you will. You just won.

Scott Galloway 1:12 And then Profy & Markets won the People's Choice Award-

Kara Swisher 1:15 Oh.

Scott Galloway 1:15 ... but not the Judge's Award.

Kara Swisher 1:17 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 1:17 So the cultural elite or the deep state of podcasting-

Kara Swisher 1:19 They judged you wanting. They judged you wanting.

Scott Galloway 1:21 ... has, has decided they're smarter than the people who picked-

Kara Swisher 1:25 Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 1:25 ... Profy & Markets. But Pivot, there was just sort of-

Kara Swisher 1:27 No.

Scott Galloway 1:27 ... no argument across anybody.

Kara Swisher 1:30 It was argument across the board.

Scott Galloway 1:31 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 1:31 Will this make us more obnoxious or less obnoxious? Probably more, right?

Scott Galloway 1:34 I think, I think we're pretty much hitting the limit of, of obnoxious. I don't, I can't imagine... Yeah, I don't, I don't see us getting more obnoxious.

Kara Swisher 1:42 Yeah, I got a lot of congratulations, and I'm like, "It's the Webby. It's the Webby." We're very happy. We're gonna... We have to think of a five-word acceptance speech for that, by the way.

Scott Galloway 1:49 Oh, yeah.

Kara Swisher 1:50 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 1:51 That's right.

Kara Swisher 1:52 Right. Scott Galloway is my husband.

Scott Galloway 1:55 There you go.

Kara Swisher 1:56 Mm. I don't like that at all.

Scott Galloway 1:57 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 1:57 Do you have any idea? Think of one. Think of one. You're gonna go get it. I, maybe, well, I, well, someone's gonna go get it.

Scott Galloway 2:02 The dinner, it's in, uh-

Kara Swisher 2:04 We have to think of five words.

Scott Galloway 2:04 It's at... My team's been to the dinner. They love it. They say it's a ton of fun.

Kara Swisher 2:07 It is. Oh, I love it. I, remember I got the, uh, the lifetime achievement, whatever.

Scott Galloway 2:11 Lifetime. Yeah, Jesus, of course you did.

Kara Swisher 2:12 You're gonna get mine at some point. It was so much fun.

Scott Galloway 2:13 Lifetime Achievement Award.

Kara Swisher 2:14 It was lovely. I had a lovely time there. I had met lots of lovely celebrities that I like to this day, and-

Scott Galloway 2:20 I want a midlife crisis award. I want an award for best-

Kara Swisher 2:23 Midlife-

Scott Galloway 2:23 ... midlife crisis, like, really-

Kara Swisher 2:25 Right.

Scott Galloway 2:25 ... leaning in.

Kara Swisher 2:25 Let me ask you a-

Scott Galloway 2:26 Yeah?

Kara Swisher 2:26 ... pressing question. If you could win any award, right? I, you and I are not award people.

Scott Galloway 2:30 Can we win-

Kara Swisher 2:31 We really aren't. Um, but wh- what would it be? What award would you want to have? I know mine.

Scott Galloway 2:35 Other than the adult video, um, tripod award?

Kara Swisher 2:38 Well, of course.

Scott Galloway 2:38 Um-

Kara Swisher 2:38 Obviously. (laughs)

Scott Galloway 2:40 (laughs) Tripod award, that's good. I just made that up.

Kara Swisher 2:43 (laughs)

Scott Galloway 2:43 My nickname in the fraternity. Don't ask me why.

Kara Swisher 2:45 Oh, come on.

Scott Galloway 2:46 Don't ask me why.

Kara Swisher 2:47 Okay. What would be the award?

Scott Galloway 2:48 Um-

Kara Swisher 2:48 A real life award.

Scott Galloway 2:49 A real one?

Kara Swisher 2:50 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 2:50 I don't know. The National Medal of Freedom, whatever it is where they, at the White House, they pin it on you.

Kara Swisher 2:54 Oh, they put the thing on you?

Scott Galloway 2:55 Maybe it'd be at the Kennedy Center. I don't know.

Kara Swisher 2:57 Yeah. No, not anymore. No.

Scott Galloway 2:59 That'll come back though.

Kara Swisher 3:00 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 3:00 Um-

Kara Swisher 3:01 I know.

Scott Galloway 3:01 I don't really care about priests, don't want a Nobel.

Kara Swisher 3:04 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 3:04 Um, I don't really-

Kara Swisher 3:05 Did you win any awards in your life? Have you won any awards?

Scott Galloway 3:07 I was thinking (laughs) about that. The last award I won from these-

Kara Swisher 3:09 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 3:10 ... other than these Webby's is in-

Kara Swisher 3:11 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 3:11 Did you have a high school poll?

Kara Swisher 3:14 Uh, no, not really.

Scott Galloway 3:14 You know, most handsome, most successful, most likely-

Kara Swisher 3:16 No.

Scott Galloway 3:17 ... to succeed.

Kara Swisher 3:17 That's... No. No.

Scott Galloway 3:18 You didn't have that in your high school?

Kara Swisher 3:19 No. I went to a snotty private school, but go ahead. They don't do that.

Scott Galloway 3:22 Uh, I did. I won most comical and Steve Martin, which dates me.

Kara Swisher 3:26 Oh, wait. You, wha- is there a Steve Martin award and most comical?

Scott Galloway 3:29 Well, they did these things like, you know-

Kara Swisher 3:31 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 3:31 ... Richard Pryor, so we could get the Black kids.

Kara Swisher 3:33 Whackies.

Scott Galloway 3:33 I mean, (laughs) we didn't really-

Kara Swisher 3:34 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 3:34 We thought we were being woke, and yet we were being very racist.

Kara Swisher 3:37 (laughs) Okay.

Scott Galloway 3:37 And we had all these, you know, celebs that you were supposed to be in the '80s.

Kara Swisher 3:40 Uh-huh.

Scott Galloway 3:40 Like, you know-

Kara Swisher 3:41 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 3:41 ... the, the blondie, or, you know, they-

Kara Swisher 3:43 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 3:43 ... said this is who you are, and they picked characters.

Kara Swisher 3:45 So you won Steve Martin? That's perfect actually.

Scott Galloway 3:46 I won Steve Martin, and I won most comical.

Kara Swisher 3:48 Oh, I see that. I see that.

Scott Galloway 3:50 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 3:50 Most comical? That's so funny. You weren't, like, best, you know, handsomest job or something?

Scott Galloway 3:55 No, not most likely to succeed.

Kara Swisher 3:56 Succeed, yeah.

Scott Galloway 3:56 Not smartest.

Kara Swisher 3:57 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 3:57 Not most likable, none of that.

Kara Swisher 3:59 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 3:59 None of that.

Kara Swisher 4:00 No.

Scott Galloway 4:00 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 4:00 No.

Scott Galloway 4:01 Yeah, yeah.

Kara Swisher 4:01 I, I have won, uh, I won the Bun award in my freshman year of college-

Scott Galloway 4:05 Bun award.

Kara Swisher 4:05 ... which was the journalism-

Scott Galloway 4:06 That's something to do with journalism? Yeah.

Kara Swisher 4:07 Yeah, it was... I, I w- I won as a freshman. Seniors got it, and I won it. It upset the entire ecosystem, and the seniors hated me for winning it as a freshman.

Scott Galloway 4:14 I think they hated you for other reasons.

Kara Swisher 4:16 Yes, that's probably true.

Scott Galloway 4:16 I'm just gonna go out on another limb.

Kara Swisher 4:17 That's a fair point. (laughs) Uh, I won a Loeb award once. I won that.

Scott Galloway 4:21 Oh, that's big. That's journalism, right?

Kara Swisher 4:22 Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's all the journalism awards.

Scott Galloway 4:23 This was all... You're doing what I'm doing. You asked me not really caring. You just wanted me to ask you.

Kara Swisher 4:26 No, I'm just, I'm just... I w- didn't know. I wanted to actually-

Scott Galloway 4:29 Keep in mind, we only have 90 minutes here.

Kara Swisher 4:31 I- I was interested.

Scott Galloway 4:31 So rifle through your awards.

Kara Swisher 4:34 Right. (laughs) No. No, I haven't won much. I'd like to... I would like to win the MacArthur Genius award. That's what I really-

Scott Galloway 4:38 Oh, that would be, that would be pretty cool.

Kara Swisher 4:40 That's the one I want.

Scott Galloway 4:41 Actually, you know what award-

Kara Swisher 4:41 You can't thirst- be thirsty for it to win it, though. You have to pretend you're ready.

Scott Galloway 4:44 You know what award I aspire to but will never happen, just through randomness, is there's something called, uh, I think it's called the Carnegie Award. And it's basically the burning car award, and that is, they give about, I think between 60 and 100 a year to people who have risked their own life on the spot to save someone else's life.

Kara Swisher 5:04 Oh, oh, that's good.

Scott Galloway 5:04 So it's literally rushing into a burning house.

Kara Swisher 5:06 Interesting. I would run into the burning house to save you.

Scott Galloway 5:09 I think you would.

Kara Swisher 5:10 I would.

Scott Galloway 5:10 I think you would.

Kara Swisher 5:10 I would have a burning house run her into.

Scott Galloway 5:12 It's a really interesting-

Kara Swisher 5:13 Um, that's a good award.

Scott Galloway 5:13 It's a really interesting... I, I love those sorts of philosophical questions, though, that in faced with that type of situation... And by the way, to be more thoughtful, uh, men are more likely to run out of the field and try and save their comrades and get shot doing it. And women are more likely, and we hate to, to establish any sort of gender roles here, but men are more, but women are more likely to, like, "Let's think this through and not be idiots."

Kara Swisher 5:36 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 5:36 Like, "How do we accomplish the mission?"

Kara Swisher 5:38 Without dying.

Scott Galloway 5:39 And slow down- (laughs)

Kara Swisher 5:40 Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Scott Galloway 5:41 ... and be more thoughtful."

Kara Swisher 5:42 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 5:42 And quite frankly, that peanut butter and chocolate-

Kara Swisher 5:44 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 5:44 ... is really useful in all situations, including combat situations.

Kara Swisher 5:48 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 5:48 Right?

Kara Swisher 5:48 Are you good in a, in a, in a jam? I did outward bound. I was pretty good in a jam a lot. I'm surprised.

Scott Galloway 5:53 I've, I, I, I'd like to think that-

Kara Swisher 5:55 Very panicky.

Scott Galloway 5:56 ... uh, I don't-

Kara Swisher 5:57 ... (laughs) I can see you doing this.

Scott Galloway 5:59 We're all gonna die!

Kara Swisher 6:00 Yeah. (laughs) I can see.

Scott Galloway 6:00 We're all gonna die.

Kara Swisher 6:01 Well, we- we should do, like, a survival thing. That would be interesting.

Scott Galloway 6:05 Yeah, uh, no.

Kara Swisher 6:06 You'd want me alone.

Scott Galloway 6:07 No. I'm good at calming down emotionally fraught situations when people get upset.

Kara Swisher 6:11 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Scott Galloway 6:11 I break up fights at a lot of bars. Not a lot. I've done it, like, three or four times.

Kara Swisher 6:14 Good. Yeah. I always establish dominance, and that's the, how I work. (laughs)

Scott Galloway 6:17 Oh, really?

Kara Swisher 6:17 Yeah, and those... I was surprised. I was really kind of like... It was sort of Lord of the... I did Outward Bound and a bunch of other things like that, and I, I literally was like, "I shall be running this now. We shall do what I say." Um, but I was kind of surprised-

Scott Galloway 6:29 I find as I get older, I'm really happy for someone else to take charge.

Kara Swisher 6:32 Yeah. Yeah.

Scott Galloway 6:33 Really happy.

Kara Swisher 6:33 You'd be a good team member. You'd be a good team member.

Scott Galloway 6:35 Especially if she's wearing leather, and I have to pay her a couple hundred euros, but-

Kara Swisher 6:38 Leather. Yeah. Leather. Yeah. Anyway.

Scott Galloway 6:40 No, I don't-

Kara Swisher 6:40 Anyway, we have a lot to speak of. Anyway, congratulations-

Scott Galloway 6:42 I'm not a paid person anymore.

Kara Swisher 6:42 ... on the Webby again. We're very excited. Thank you, Webby Awards.

Scott Galloway 6:45 And congratulations to our team.

Kara Swisher 6:47 Team. Yes, all the team.

Scott Galloway 6:48 Yeah. Larry, Zoe, Taylor.

Kara Swisher 6:48 Should we name them? Go ahead. Good, good. Zoe, Taylor, Larry, everybody.

Scott Galloway 6:52 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 6:52 And, and name e-... Drew is amazing for us. We've got all the-

Scott Galloway 6:55 Who's Drew? Oh, the tech guy who's been with me 15 years.

Kara Swisher 6:57 (laughs)

Scott Galloway 6:57 Memo to self, remember Drew.

Kara Swisher 6:59 Anyway. We thank... Do we thank Vox? Yeah, Vox. Sure, sure. In the shot. Yay.

Scott Galloway 7:03 Yay.

Kara Swisher 7:03 Yeah, in the shot. Carol. Yeah.

Scott Galloway 7:04 Vox.

Kara Swisher 7:05 Vox. We love you.

Scott Galloway 7:06 Yay. The suits. The corporate-

Kara Swisher 7:08 The suits, they're not... They don't really wear suits.

Scott Galloway 7:08 The headquarters.

Kara Swisher 7:09 That's not fair. They don't wear suits.

Scott Galloway 7:11 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 7:11 They're not suit people. They're not suit people. They're, they're a actually lovely world.

Scott Galloway 7:14 Can you imagine? If, if we've been with them seven years, what does that say about how easygoing and nice they are? (laughs)

Kara Swisher 7:19 They have to be. Jim Bankos is the nicest person

Scott Galloway 7:21 Be- between the two of us, we've been with them-

Kara Swisher 7:23 We know. He really is.

Scott Galloway 7:23 The chances for a blowup between you, me, and any third party-

Kara Swisher 7:27 Yeah. Has he yelled at us? Yeah.

Scott Galloway 7:28 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 7:28 ... are big. Has he ever yelled at us? No. He never does.

Scott Galloway 7:31 No. Jim's the nicest guy in the... Jim's the nicest guy in media.

Kara Swisher 7:34 Yeah. He is.

Scott Galloway 7:34 He really is. He's the nicest guy in media.

Kara Swisher 7:36 He is. He is.

Scott Galloway 7:36 Anyway, enough about us.

Kara Swisher 7:37 Anyway, enough about us. Thank you, Webby Awards. It's well-deserved by us, let's just say. Okay. All right. We've got a lot to get to today, including... There's so much going on. Elon announcing he's stepping back from Doge following Tesla's terrible earnings report, just as we predicted. Uh, Trump, uh, sends, uh, the market on yet another wild ride because he's so ridiculous. Um, but first, uh,

Kara Swisher 7:58 Instagram co-founder Kevin Systrom testified this week that the app was underfunded after Meta bought it, boosting the FTC's argument that the company was illegally anti-competitive. Systrom said that Zuckerberg was not investing in the Instagram, uh, app 'cause he saw it as a threat to Facebook, which he felt was better. He was incorrect, but that's what he felt. Um, I interviewed Systrom, and let me... Um, let's listen to this clip 'cause they used it in the trial to try to impugn Kevin Systrom.

Kevin Systrom 8:25 Uh, we were struggling to keep the setup, $500 million valuation, and then Mark came along and was like, "Hey, how about I double that? And you get to keep working on what you love, and you get all the expertise of Facebook."

Kara Swisher 8:35 Mm, access.

Kevin Systrom 8:35 "You get to work with me, Sheryl, Schrep, et cetera." Um, and that sounded like a really good deal.

Kara Swisher 8:41 Mm-hmm.

Kevin Systrom 8:41 And if you look in retrospect, I think it was a great deal.

Kara Swisher 8:44 Mm-hmm.

Kevin Systrom 8:45 Think about all the things we've accomplished being part of Facebook.

Kara Swisher 8:48 Mm-hmm.

Kevin Systrom 8:48 All the things we have plugged into, whether it's hiring, spam fighting, the ad system.

Kara Swisher 8:53 Mm-hmm.

Kevin Systrom 8:53 I mean, we have thousands of salespeople who are basically selling ads for Instagram.

Kara Swisher 8:58 Mm-hmm.

Kevin Systrom 8:58 And we snapped our fingers to access them.

Kara Swisher 9:00 Right.

Kevin Systrom 9:00 So, a lot of really great stuff is-

Kara Swisher 9:02 Did you actually snap your fingers?

Kevin Systrom 9:03 Yes, I snapped my fingers.

Kara Swisher 9:04 (laughs) Yeah, salespeople could vouch-

Kevin Systrom 9:05 Um, no, but I guess my point is like-

Kara Swisher 9:06 I get it. It's like, which would've happened without the other, kind of thing?

Kevin Systrom 9:10 I mean-

Kara Swisher 9:10 If not for this, then that.

Kevin Systrom 9:11 ... I bet you we would've been successful as an independent company-

Kara Swisher 9:13 Mm-hmm.

Kevin Systrom 9:13 ... as well.

Kara Swisher 9:14 Mm-hmm. So, they were using this to say that he was happy there. And, um, now let's listen then to a clip from 2023 at South by Southwest where I interviewed Kevin.

Kevin Systrom 9:23 I think the worst part of the sale was just, like, trying to both accomplish something great with the company-

Kara Swisher 9:29 Mm-hmm.

Kevin Systrom 9:30 ... and also merge it into a company that didn't quite know how to look at you. Were you a competitor? Were we excited to own you? Like, it's like a roommate who moves in, and you're like, "Oh," like, "this person's really cool, but also, there's stuff everywhere."

Kara Swisher 9:44 Right.

Kevin Systrom 9:45 That's kinda what it felt like for eight years, and, but-

Kara Swisher 9:48 (laughs) A bad roommate.

Kevin Systrom 9:49 Yeah. It's like... Are there any good roommates? I don't know.

Kara Swisher 9:52 Yeah.

Kevin Systrom 9:52 Uh, maybe that's the reason why, uh, like, people shouldn't have roommates. But I... Like, gr- uh... It was challenging, but we did great things.

Kara Swisher 10:00 That's the attitude that Kevin had for a long time. He was very frustrated internally. Mark was petty with him, I think, and jealous. I, I think that's no question. Um, it was an interesting, it's an interesting trial. It was interesting that they had Kevin there, and not, uh, interesting, uh, Evan Spiegel, who turned down, who I interviewed yesterday, by the way, in Washington, um, at Snapchat, who had turned down, and then pr- Facebook proceeded to blast them by taking all their ideas. Um, any thoughts on this? I mean, uh, y- I think people pro- publicly tried to put on a good face, right? You've been in these situations, Scott.

Scott Galloway 10:33 Yeah. Look, uh, uh, Kevin strikes me as a very talented entrepreneur. I don't doubt that anything he says is, uh, there's some veracity to it. Um, but, you know, he cashed their check. What a shocker. The current CEO or the, the CEO was on top and wanted to, wanted to maintain his platform, his kind of firstborn, Facebook, maybe even at the expense of Instagram. But the thing that sort of countered all this is whatever he was feeling or whatever resources he was trying to starve one of the kids from, he clearly changed his mind, because Instagram is now responsible for over half of, um-

Kara Swisher 11:12 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 11:12 ... ad revenue and is growing faster. And so, at some point-

Kara Swisher 11:14 It's a better product.

Scott Galloway 11:16 At some point, Zuck realized this and has absolutely turned it into a, a, a, a monster, a business. So, that may have been true then, but clearly, if that was true, Mark has, Mark has seen the light. And, uh, what, what I have found or what is interesting... I had dinner with, um, Jonathan Haidt the other night, and he actually said... You know, I get so emotional and biased about this stuff. He said some of the controls that Meta has i- put in place for parents, even though they're not easy to use, and, you know, you can criticize them. He said the, the one that gets away with more than, or doesn't get the scrutiny it deserves and he thinks is actually the most mendacious-

Kara Swisher 11:57 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 11:58 ... is Snap.

Kara Swisher 11:59 Really? Interesting. Why?

Scott Galloway 12:00 Uh, well, things like their add-on feature where you can, um-... uh, the core components of it, he, uh, he kinda said are sort of tailor-made, pr- likely unintentionally, for drug-dealing and for people reaching out to minors, because that, that feature where you can add on people near to you, immediately it adds people near to you, is perfect for a drug dealer.

Kara Swisher 12:21 I ca- I, I suppose. I, I, I would p-push back 'cause I think they've always been doi- done a lot of moderation. They've always impr- when they have a problem, they fix it. They don't, like, uh, belly ache about it. Um, there's a, like, they had a whole problem with data.

Scott Galloway 12:35 Streaks. Um, and that, and-

Kara Swisher 12:36 Yeah, uh, I'm just saying-

Scott Galloway 12:38 Sorry, go ahead.

Kara Swisher 12:38 ... they fix things quickly, and they do moderate. They moderate much heavier. And they don't... What I'm saying is the attitude isn't, "Ugh, what are you talking about?" It's like, "Oh, we should fix that." Like, I think... I, I would agree. I think it's a, it's a locational thing, and it's more for your friends, and therefore, it opens it up more. But I... You know, I have kids on it. I would rather have them on Snapchat than Facebook 'cause I think they got inundated on Facebook.

Scott Galloway 12:59 Well, they're not gonna be on Facebook.

Kara Swisher 13:00 No.

Scott Galloway 13:00 No young person's on Facebook.

Kara Swisher 13:02 No, no, no, no.

Scott Galloway 13:02 But, uh,-

Kara Swisher 13:02 Or Instagram even.

Scott Galloway 13:03 ... I don't know. Snap- I think Snap is actually pretty scary, and also-

Kara Swisher 13:05 Yeah, I know.

Scott Galloway 13:06 ... the whole zeitgeist of it where it's disappearing messages.

Kara Swisher 13:09 It was, right.

Scott Galloway 13:10 Uh, uh, uh, I mean-

Kara Swisher 13:12 They can say that.

Scott Galloway 13:12 ... isn't that kinda, isn't that kinda perfect for people looking to reach...

Kara Swisher 13:15 (sighs) Yes, but-

Scott Galloway 13:15 Doesn't that promote a certain level of lack of accountability?

Kara Swisher 13:18 But, uh, in this wor- in this information... I don't think that's why they did it. I think it was because they thought-

Scott Galloway 13:22 Oh.

Kara Swisher 13:22 ... privacy was critical. That's not why they did it. I was there. They, they-

Scott Galloway 13:25 But regardless of what they're... I don't, I don't think any of those people are looking to harm-

Kara Swisher 13:28 Right.

Scott Galloway 13:28 ... children.

Kara Swisher 13:29 No.

Scott Galloway 13:30 But when they have features that make it easy for adults to reach out to minors, you know, isn't that a problem?

Kara Swisher 13:37 It, it is, but I don't agree with Jonathan. I think Facebook has done less and been more resistant to dealing with things, and they're the big dog.

Scott Galloway 13:44 I, I would agree with you. I agree.

Kara Swisher 13:45 And I think, um, I think Snapchat is... I'd, I'd rather have my kids... And I get the locational feature, and if kids open it up, there are things you can do to it to stop that, right? You can, you c-... He has... It's much more open to fixing, and it certainly has had a, had an issues around drug dealers and things like that. Every one of these platforms has. I'm just saying, platforms like, who have had problems, like Reddit and Snapchat, have always been willing to change in ways, and admit in ways Facebook never has. And, you know, I, I, I ultimately, I think Facebook doesn't really matter 'cause they're the biggest, and they have the most impact on everybody-

Scott Galloway 14:20 Yeah, I think that's a fair point.

Kara Swisher 14:21 ... and especially through Instagram.

Scott Galloway 14:22 My kids are on Snap though.

Kara Swisher 14:22 And so they should be the most responsible. Hm? What?

Scott Galloway 14:25 My kids are on Snap though.

Kara Swisher 14:26 Yep.

Scott Galloway 14:26 Aren't your kids on... Or I guess-

Kara Swisher 14:28 Snap.

Scott Galloway 14:28 ... your kids are, have aged out of it.

Kara Swisher 14:29 I don't, I think, I think-

Scott Galloway 14:30 Instagram and Snap.

Kara Swisher 14:30 ... Louie doesn't use it as much. Um, but they, he definitely... That was the only one he used. Um, and, uh, there w- there was one incident where I did catch him with a girl on Snap but using the location features. Um, I told you that, didn't I? (laughs) I caught him. He went out. He left the house, and I found him on Snap 'cause he's so dumb with his technology, and I said, "I know exactly where you are. I'm coming to get you." And, um, he, uh-

Scott Galloway 14:52 Oh, come on. Be a brother.

Kara Swisher 14:54 No. (laughs)

Scott Galloway 14:54 He- Help him-

Kara Swisher 14:54 Actually, his brother-

Scott Galloway 14:56 ... help him get some.

Kara Swisher 14:56 ... turned him in. His brother's the one that turned him in to me. Um, uh, but-

Scott Galloway 15:00 (laughs) His brother narced on him?

Kara Swisher 15:01 Yeah. Well, he's like, "Louie's not here." And then we like, "Let's use the Snap feature." It's a long story, but he wrote me-

Scott Galloway 15:06 Oh, my God.

Kara Swisher 15:06 ... the most legendary text of all time, which is why I love him so much. He... I, I wrote him, and I said, "I can't..." He took an Uber. He used my Uber to get to a, m- do a, some sort of hookup.

Scott Galloway 15:16 So a lot of breadcrumbs. It sounds like he wanted to be caught.

Kara Swisher 15:18 He was. I was like, literally... So he wrote s-... I wro-... I'm like, uh, "You are so grounded." I texted him, "You are so grounded. I'm gonna kill you." And he w- he writes back. He goes, "Sometime it gonna be like that, chief." And that's what he- (laughs)

Scott Galloway 15:31 (laughs)

Kara Swisher 15:31 ... I'm gonna read it at his wedding. I love that line, "Sometime it gonna be like that, chief." Anyway, um, let's go f-

Scott Galloway 15:38 When I-

Kara Swisher 15:38 Go ahead.

Scott Galloway 15:39 ... when I was, um-

Kara Swisher 15:39 You're about to enter-

Scott Galloway 15:40 Uh-

Kara Swisher 15:40 ... into this period of your-

Scott Galloway 15:41 When I was a-

Kara Swisher 15:42 ... child, your kid.

Scott Galloway 15:42 ... a senior in high school, I asked four women to my prom, and all of them said no.

Kara Swisher 15:48 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 15:48 And my friend, Adam Markman, who I think felt empathy for me-

Kara Swisher 15:51 Wow.

Scott Galloway 15:52 ... um, set me up with a woman, uh, uh, actually one of the most beautiful women I've ever met, this woman named Lena.

Kara Swisher 15:58 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 15:58 I posted a picture of her on my-

Kara Swisher 16:00 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 16:00 ... uh, Instagram. Anyways, Lena and I went to the Windward prom.

Kara Swisher 16:05 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 16:05 And I was so excited. I was telling my mom, uh, I was going to a prom, and she went with me, and I rented a tuxedo. And I didn't know how to put the fucking thing on 'cause I'd never-

Kara Swisher 16:12 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 16:12 ... worn a tuxedo before. I didn't know how to do cuff links or anything. Anyways, um, I said, uh, and she said, "Well, what are you gonna do?" And I'm like, "Well, the after-party's near here." And I'm like, and I'm like... And I've got a key. I just might bring her back after all of this-

Kara Swisher 16:26 Right.

Scott Galloway 16:26 ... to here.

Kara Swisher 16:26 Right.

Scott Galloway 16:27 And, and I did manage to get her back to my place.

Kara Swisher 16:30 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 16:30 And you know, th- what... There was firewood in the fireplace that my mom had put in there. (laughs)

Kara Swisher 16:35 Oh, no. Your mom's so good.

Scott Galloway 16:37 Wasn't that nice? She was-

Kara Swisher 16:38 Anyways.

Scott Galloway 16:39 She looked at me.

Kara Swisher 16:39 Yeah, we would not-

Scott Galloway 16:40 I was 6'2", 140 pounds with bad acne. And she's like,-

Kara Swisher 16:42 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 16:42 ... "He needs all the help-"

Kara Swisher 16:43 Help he can get (laughs) .

Scott Galloway 16:44 ... "he can get."

Kara Swisher 16:45 (laughs) I would not-

Scott Galloway 16:45 "He needs all the help-"

Kara Swisher 16:47 Well, you're about to enter this period-

Scott Galloway 16:48 ... "he can get."

Kara Swisher 16:48 ... with your young man that you have, so I hope you've done a good job.

Scott Galloway 16:52 No.

Kara Swisher 16:52 Anyway, anyway, they... My kids are good.

Scott Galloway 16:54 (laughs) You know what my mom used to-

Kara Swisher 16:55 I would not have put fire in the firewood.

Scott Galloway 16:55 ... when she used to date me, she would say... When I was talking about my women troubles, which was mostly an inability-

Kara Swisher 17:00 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 17:00 ... to get a woman in my life-

Kara Swisher 17:02 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 17:02 ... she would look at me, and she'd be like, "Wine."

Kara Swisher 17:05 Wine, wine (laughs) . Come on.

Scott Galloway 17:07 "Wine."

Kara Swisher 17:07 Wine, wine.

Scott Galloway 17:08 (laughs)

Kara Swisher 17:08 I did do, uh, I mean, uh, y- you have to do the s- responsible things, the sex talk, the condom talk, everything else, but, um, just treat women well was the one-

Scott Galloway 17:16 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 17:16 ... that I really pushed on him. Anyway, we gotta move on. That's not the-

Scott Galloway 17:19 Well, I told you about the sex talk I had with my son, right?

Kara Swisher 17:22 Yes, you did. We're not gonna do that again. (laughs)

Scott Galloway 17:23 When I went into his room with a banana and a condom-

Kara Swisher 17:26 I know you told this to me. Go ahead and do it again.

Scott Galloway 17:27 ... and he said, "What's the banana for?" And I said, "Well, I can't get hard on an empty stomach."

Kara Swisher 17:31 Oh, my God.

Scott Galloway 17:32 Boom!

Kara Swisher 17:32 You told it-

Scott Galloway 17:33 Never gets old!

Kara Swisher 17:34 You can't tell that joke ever ever again.

Scott Galloway 17:35 Never gets old!

Kara Swisher 17:36 It gets old. It gets old. All right-

Scott Galloway 17:37 Never gets old!

Kara Swisher 17:38 ... okay, once again.

Scott Galloway 17:38 I'll be here all week. Try the veal.

Kara Swisher 17:40 All right, we're gonna... Uh, the, the, the invading Poland one is not allowed anymore. You cannot do that.

Scott Galloway 17:44 Oh, by the way.

Kara Swisher 17:45 No.

Scott Galloway 17:45 That's wrong.

Kara Swisher 17:46 That, that joke's not allowed anymore. It's not.

Scott Galloway 17:47 I need to correct it. It's wrong.

Kara Swisher 17:48 What? Uh-

Scott Galloway 17:49 The Polish cavalry, that was, uh, an attack meant to divert, uh, German forces, and it was effective. And it's an insult to the brave men of the Polish cavalry-

Kara Swisher 17:59 Oh, okay.

Scott Galloway 17:59 ... that, that attack was actually-

Kara Swisher 18:01 Okay.

Scott Galloway 18:01 ... an effective diversion of German, um, they weren't tanks, but German armored vehicles. I've had-

Kara Swisher 18:07 Okay.

Scott Galloway 18:07 ... literally eight Polish-

Kara Swisher 18:08 Okay.

Scott Galloway 18:08 ... historians reach out to me and say, "Stop saying that."

Kara Swisher 18:11 For your dick joke. Yeah, stop the d- I think just because it's not funny. But anyway, it... Let's keep going. Uh, oh, it's not the only legal trouble Meta is dealing with.

Kara Swisher 18:19 Meta and Apple are the first companies to be fined for violations of the EU's Digital Markets Act. Of course, they were gonna... This was gonna happen, antitrust rules. Meta about 230 million, Apple's 570 million. Both have been given 60 days to comply. Um, it's hardly any money. Um, so any thoughts on that? Any thoughts on that?

Scott Galloway 18:38 ...on the antitrust?

Kara Swisher 18:39 Yeah. They, they, they're, the, the Europeans are, are extracting funds. I think they're probably not gonna pay and they'll just keep, you know, objecting to it for a while.

Scott Galloway 18:47 The question I have rem- ma- may- I'm hoping you know more about this than I do, but is it okay, everything's fine and continue? Because that's a parking ticket in terms of their (air whooshing) flow.

Kara Swisher 18:55 No, they have to comply with the rules. So, they, they have to decide what to do. They can pull out of the things, they could close down services. But they've done that in various countries. I think in Canada, uh, Facebook pulled out of news. Uh, they don't put news on there and only right-wing... There was a great piece about how sort of right-wing blather invades social media there, 'cause Facebook has pulled news organizations out of 'cause of something they didn't like. So, they'll have to either comply with the rules or they're gonna have to leave, I suppose.

Scott Galloway 19:22 And this is, uh, I mean, okay, so the good guys, you could argue, are winning here. Uh, uh, uh, s- so the EU fined both, they fined them both for violating-

Kara Swisher 19:31 Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 19:31 ...the new Digital Markets Act-

Kara Swisher 19:32 Right.

Scott Galloway 19:32 ...and it's the first time that the law has been-

Kara Swisher 19:35 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 19:35 ...has been enforced.

Kara Swisher 19:36 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 19:36 It was $570 million for Apple and-

Kara Swisher 19:38 Yeah, 230.

Scott Galloway 19:38 ...230 million for-

Kara Swisher 19:39 For Meta.

Scott Galloway 19:40 ...Meta.

Kara Swisher 19:40 Yeah, I just said that, yeah.

Scott Galloway 19:41 But w- we'll say it again.

Kara Swisher 19:44 All right, okay. (laughs)

Scott Galloway 19:44 Okay, so anyways, I'm saying it again.

Kara Swisher 19:46 I know you have research in front of you, but go ahead, keep going.

Scott Galloway 19:49 Uh, uh, yeah, and then, uh, so w- what is that, half of what Apple and Meta make in one day?

Kara Swisher 19:56 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 19:56 So, the question is, uh, the question for me is, is it gonna happen every month unless they change their behavior or is this like that old fine where they effectively-

Kara Swisher 20:06 That's it.

Scott Galloway 20:06 ...are like, "Okay, you were bad, now continue to be bad, and you got caught this time and we're fining you, but it's not gonna really"-

Kara Swisher 20:13 I shall find out.

Scott Galloway 20:14 "change future behavior."

Kara Swisher 20:14 I do not know that. Any Europeans can write us, but, um, I don't know. I think they, uh, I, I think they're going to do other things to not comply, because compliance is problematic across the globe, from my, what I understand. They'll figure out some workaround of some sort. Um, but I will find out and I will let you know next week. Is there any predictions for that Meta case from your perspective? I, most people think it's pretty weak, but Systrom's testimony was definitely strong, I think.

Scott Galloway 20:38 Well, uh, uh, I, I do believe one of these companies, I don't know which one, is gonna prophylactically spend something. I, I think that they are so smart that when they feel the wolves circling-

Kara Swisher 20:49 Google.

Scott Galloway 20:49 ...they're gonna get out ahead of it and go to them and say, "All right, um, h- w- what's our blood offering here? What if we spun, uh, Chro- what if we sold Chrome to OpenAI or what if we"-

Kara Swisher 21:01 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 21:02 ...uh, "spun Instagram? I don't know."

Kara Swisher 21:04 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 21:04 "Or WhatsApp?" I think one of them, I think we're gonna see our first spin in the next 12 months.

Kara Swisher 21:09 All right. That's a good prediction. I don't think it's gonna be Facebook. He's very stubborn. Um, but I suspect Google, Goo- which has a much tougher case, uh, this case, they feel very confident over at Meta about this particular case, just so you know. They're very confident, but... Although they, they, they sort of communicate, um, on social media like they're desperate, which is interesting. So, um,

Kara Swisher 21:28 the next one, former Alaska Governor Sarah Palin has lost the retrial of a 2017 defamation lawsuit against the New York Times. Palin filed a lawsuit after the Times ran an editorial claiming she had engaged in a political incitement ahead of the 2011 shooting of Gabby Giffords, incorrectly drawing ties to an advertisement. The Times, uh, issued a correction in under 24 hours, but Palin's legal team argued the mistake was actual malice. The bar for actual malice is high, established in 19- uh, 1964 case, very famous, New York Times versus Sullivan, which the Trump Administration is trying to get overturned and, or changed, protects, uh, news outlets from liability while they, uh, when, when they publish false statements, uh, as they did... Uh, uh, i- i- as long as they did not do so knowingly or willingly or, or, uh, with actual malice. The Supreme Court Justices, again, Thomas and Gorsuch, have called for the court to revisit the malice standard for, for well-known people. If you're not a well-known person, you can, you can sue for defamation much easier. Obviously, Palin is super well-known. Um, so she came back the second time, it was like in two hours, um, uh, you know, w- uh, the, the, uh, the, um, the Times had great lawyers, j- FYI, and also the person who made the mistakes, James Barnett, who has since left the Times, uh, apologized to Palin, Palin on the stand this time and actually cried. I, I, I know him pretty well. Um, I thought it was quite dignified for he, for him to do so, like to apologize like that. I think it probably really helped the case. Um, I don't think the issue is ever gonna win, but I think that this is over, this is the last stop for her unless... I don't know if she can keep appealing, but any thoughts?

Scott Galloway 23:02 Uh, I think she's, uh, just a trivial question at this point. Um, she caught this moment of charisma and fire, and then over the course of the last 10 or 12 years, uh, Governor Palin has just revealed herself to not be a serious person.

Kara Swisher 23:18 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 23:18 And-

Kara Swisher 23:18 That's not very serious. You usually do jokes, but go ahead.

Scott Galloway 23:21 Well, and then, and then, uh, I, I think this is a- actually really important because-

Kara Swisher 23:26 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 23:26 ...I think this would have inspired a ton of...

Kara Swisher 23:28 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 23:29 The reality is when you're... O- o- one of the key tenets of America that's really wonderful is pretty much anyone can say pretty much anything about pretty much anybody. If you, if it ends up you know you're spreading misinformation against someone less powerful than you, not famous, and it, it creates economic harm or undue stress, then you have a libel or slander case. And I think the l- you know, the law mostly gets it right. And they said in this case, "Look, you are doing, you are such a public figure, you continue to say like kind of, uh, you know, insane things. People respond, people cover you, people are, quite frankly, biased against you, and they're allowed to be biased against you." And, uh, she was unable to prove that... Uh, uh, look, I, I, to me, this seemed fairly obvious. And so-

Kara Swisher 24:12 It did, but people were worried about this case and a lot of others-

Scott Galloway 24:15 Uh, in this age, yeah.

Kara Swisher 24:15 ...including why, uh, George Stephanopoulos, they settled for that thing that he did-

Scott Galloway 24:19 Agreed.

Kara Swisher 24:19 ...to Nancy Mace. They were w- I think there were probably some sort of texts that, that he was warned several times in that case, um, or something. So, there was something there for the reason Disney caved. There, there must've been, um, but, but they w- I talked to people at Disney, they were worried that it would go to the Supreme Court. Like, they, everyone's worried about a Times versus Sullivan case getting to the Supreme Court, which it eventually will, 'cause the right is very much intent on cutting back. You know, they're trying to get rid of SLAPP laws, they're trying to get, which, uh, protects journalists from being, you know, nuisance lawsuits in many states, not every state, which is why they try to sue in places like Texas and other places. Um, but they're on the march trying to, t- overturn these things, just like-... Trump tried to overturn the Civil Rights Act this week, or... Anyway, uh, it- it was good for the New York Times, it- it was the right decision. You're right.

Kara Swisher 25:07 And lastly, uh, late Zappos fou- co-founder Tony Hsieh did have a concrete plans for his $1.2 billion fortune when he died, via recently found will, according to the Wall Street Journal. This was interesting. I knew Tony very well. Uh, it was a sad end to a- a lovely person who was quite troubled. The document notes that if any family members challenge his wishes, all will receive nothing, marks, um, $3 million for Hsieh's, uh, alma mater, Harvard, and allocates over, uh, um, a whole bunch of money to undisclosed, uh, recipients he wanted to surprise. Um, he left a lot of Post-it notes of- of things, and so he was sort of... He had a real problem, a dr- really, essentially a drug problem at the end of his life, and, uh, they thought he had died without, uh, instructions, but- and- and he really... The last part of his life during COVID was really disturbing, I think. Um, so, you know, it's- it's a coda. I'm glad he gave money to Harvard and other places, but it- it just reminded me of a very sad story of- of tech and media.

Scott Galloway 26:04 It is really sad, and it's a- a- a... I remember being invited, he had created this kind of, for a lack of a better term, kind of cool e-commerce hub, commune kind of thing.

Kara Swisher 26:14 In Vegas, yeah.

Scott Galloway 26:15 In Vegas. And-

Kara Swisher 26:16 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 26:17 ... uh, he invited me to speak. They used to do these little gatherings. And everyone said, "Oh, you should go. It's a total party."

Kara Swisher 26:23 (laughs) Yeah, it is a party.

Scott Galloway 26:23 And I never- I never went.

Kara Swisher 26:25 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 26:25 Uh, but his is sort of a tragic lesson on if you don't keep some perspective around why people are around you.

Kara Swisher 26:33 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 26:33 And also, he- he made... He's a big boy, he made his own decisions, but there's, you know, they s- there's this... I forget the adage, the more famous you become, the- the lonelier you get-

Kara Swisher 26:44 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 26:44 ... is essentially. And he struck me as someone who really struggled-

Kara Swisher 26:47 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 26:48 ... with loneliness. And when I was with... I met with the head of, uh, uh, Warner Brothers Film, and I like to... we spitball ideas. And one of my ideas, I think the most... You know, there was that whole raft of Big Tech, there was Bad Blood-

Kara Swisher 27:02 Right.

Scott Galloway 27:02 ... WeCrashed-

Kara Swisher 27:04 Right.

Scott Galloway 27:04 ... the one about Uber.

Kara Swisher 27:05 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 27:05 And I said, "The most interesting one hasn't been told." I think-

Kara Swisher 27:07 Oh.

Scott Galloway 27:07 ... the story of Tony Hsieh is actually the most interesting story.

Kara Swisher 27:10 I would agree. I think that's a great idea. It is interesting. I mean, I spent a lot of time with Tony and interviewed him num- many times. He was a gentle soul, uh, we would have a running joke because he- he was a hugger. He'd always be like, "Come here." And he did this Happiness Tour, which sort of was a- a tell he was so sad, he needed to have a Happiness Tour. Um, but he's always like, uh, "You know, I'm gonna hug you," and I said, "I'll break your arms if you do." I did a video, which I would send you, but you wouldn't watch, of my tour of their- of their Zappos office. It was a very cult-like kind of... You know how, uh, uh, Japanese companies, they do calisthenics together and that kind of stuff? He was trying to have this sort of happiness thing, and he had a guy who was Head of Happiness there, and would take you through on the tour, and, you know, they'd have all this, like, can- a lot of candy happening, a lot of sugar, a lot of, like, creative stuff in the- in the office with the people, and everyone had their own little teams. It was... I found it... I said, I called it forced fun. I was like, "I don't want to have any forced fun with people at work." And, um... But he- he tried to create these ethos, and he s- did the same thing in Vegas, you know, creating, trying to revive Downtown Vegas. And it was, uh, uh, a lot of it was very abou- much about him, and he had this holacracy thing. We wrote about it a bunch in- at all- at, uh, Recode. Um, he had a whole theory of management, and it just was... I remember last time I saw him, I thought, which was a... He came to CODE every year, and he play-... He's a very good poker player, and he was drinking. He had a certain drink he drank a lot of. Um, oh, I can't remember. It was not absinthe, but it was like that. It was something... Fernet, he loved Fernet. That was it. Um, and, um, and he was so sad, you could tell, uh, and was sort of... was jocul-... you know, forced- forced jocularity, and, uh, but a very gentle soul. Anyway.

Scott Galloway 28:54 So, um, back to me, um, and I'll relate this to nitrous. I love nitrous, and I have terrible dental hygiene. I've come out of the closet, as somebody-

Kara Swisher 29:03 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 29:03 I brush my teeth twice a day.

Kara Swisher 29:04 Oh.

Scott Galloway 29:04 That's it. I think I've flossed maybe six times in my life.

Kara Swisher 29:07 Oh, I love flossing.

Scott Galloway 29:07 And it's like, it's literally like social shaming. And I go... And every time I go into the dentist to get my teeth cleaned, they're like, "You know, your gums are a little bit inflamed, you really should do this."

Kara Swisher 29:16 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 29:16 I'm like, "Look, you're gonna give me a bunch of shit, a bunch of picks-

Kara Swisher 29:19 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 29:19 ... a bunch of devices. I'm not gonna use any of it."

Kara Swisher 29:21 Excuse me?

Scott Galloway 29:21 "I get my teeth cleaned every three months. I want you to turn the nitrous up, I want you to turn on Po- Tom Petty."

Kara Swisher 29:26 (laughs)

Scott Galloway 29:26 "I will be back here in three months, but save the fucking speech. I don't have good dental hygiene."

Kara Swisher 29:30 They can't- they can't fix it if you don't do that. You need to have a, like, everything you have to do.

Scott Galloway 29:34 You... It was... What, are you part of the-

Kara Swisher 29:36 The water, the pulsing water.

Scott Galloway 29:36 ... Health industrial complex? No.

Kara Swisher 29:38 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 29:38 If you get your teeth cleaned every three months, that's- that's-

Kara Swisher 29:41 No.

Scott Galloway 29:41 That- that helps.

Kara Swisher 29:42 You're gonna- I'm gonna... You're gonna have no gums, and I'm gonna- I'm gonna laugh at your dentures someday.

Scott Galloway 29:46 (laughs)

Kara Swisher 29:46 You need to do those things. You need to have a wa-... I'm sending you a Waterpik. You need a Waterpik, at least.

Scott Galloway 29:51 Yeah, I've tried that. I've tried that.

Kara Swisher 29:51 It's a m-... Waterpiks are great. I lo-... I do a Waterpik twice a day. I love it. It's great.

Scott Galloway 29:56 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 29:56 My gums are excellent. Anyway, let's go on a quick break, when we come back (laughs) ... Enough with the Waterpik.

Scott Galloway 30:00 No joke, my son-

Kara Swisher 30:02 We'll- we're sending you a Waterpik.

Scott Galloway 30:02 My youngest son won't come into our bathroom anymore, 'cause I traumatized him by chasing him around with a Waterpik.

Kara Swisher 30:06 Y- oh, okay.

Scott Galloway 30:06 But anyways.

Kara Swisher 30:06 Okay. (laughs)

Scott Galloway 30:08 True story.

Kara Swisher 30:08 All right. When we come... It's not a weapon. When we come back-

Scott Galloway 30:11 Oh! It's an awesome weapon.

Kara Swisher 30:12 ... Elon heads back to Tesla, and Scott makes a great prediction. Scott, we're back. Elon says

Kara Swisher 30:17 he's- shocker of shockers, Elon says he's scaling back his time at Doge, uh, starting in May, claiming his work is mostly done, which means he got nothing done. He will instead be allocating more of his time to Tesla. The announcement came in the wake of Tesla's brutal earnings report, with net income falling 71% during the first quarter of 2025. In a letter to shareholders, the company referenced changing political sentiment that could have meaningful impact on demand for our products in the near term. What do you think? Tesla's shares were up over 5% following this announcement that he's returning to the company, which is shocking, because I think him not returning to the company is probably better for it. And as of this recording, it's still up. Uh, we've, of course, been calling this for weeks. Scott, let's listen to what you said back in February.

Scott Galloway 30:57 Doge and Elon Musk are gonna fade away, 'cause you can be sure he's doing the math...... and he's like, "Even if I can, even if I can get rid of all those pesky regulators, I'm still losing money here because my sales are plummeting." Because the general public across the US, much less Europe, when they see these idiots surrendering to Putin, and when they see the type of recklessness, and they see that they're not saving any money, all they're (laughs) doing is making our government less competent, uh, you're gonna see Tesla sales continue to plummet, Tesla stock continue to go down, and I think he's gonna fade back to the corporate sector.

Kara Swisher 31:35 Boom goes Scott Galloway. You wait-

Scott Galloway 31:37 There you go.

Kara Swisher 31:37 ... this is why we won a Webby. This is why.

Scott Galloway 31:39 That's right.

Kara Swisher 31:39 This is why.

Scott Galloway 31:40 That's right.

Kara Swisher 31:40 So, um, it all came true. Um, obviously, uh, the, the, besides the sh- the shares being up though, mo- if you look, take apart the report, they would have been in- drastically non-profitable had it not been for selling emissions things that Trump is trying to get rid of, and investments, I think, in Bitcoin or something like that. It earned this 595 million, and again, these regulatory credits to other automakers, uh, which are gonna be rolled back, uh, was critical to that. Um, it wasn't 'cause of cars. Um,

Kara Swisher 32:11 have you think- do you think the company... Let's go for more. Uh, has the company been permanently damaged? And again, I would underscore, it's not just the political stuff. They haven't made a great product. They made the Cybertruck, which is a dud, and they haven't rolled out great products that other carmakers, 'cause all other carmakers are going up in EVs and hybrids. So, more than 47% of Americans have a negative view of the company, according to a new CNBC survey, uh, more- and more than 52% have a negative view of Musk. So, how do they get out of the brand hole, also financially? Um, he's touting robotaxis, which he says will move the financial needle in a significant way. This is not true. He's got competitors. With Waymo, he's predicting one million units of the Optimus robots in less than five years. I think Optimus robots is the Cybertruck of the next thing that he's doing. So, what do you see in the next couple of... Let's have some predictions from Scott Galloway on this topic.

Scott Galloway 33:00 Yeah, but whatever I predict about Tesla tends to be wrong, but-

Kara Swisher 33:03 I'm not talking about the stock, 'cause I think you were right about... I'm talking about can he pull out of this hole, one. Can they pull out? I think they can't, but I- I don't- I want- love to know what you think.

Scott Galloway 33:12 Well, it all comes down to one thing.

Kara Swisher 33:13 Right.

Scott Galloway 33:13 I- i- it's very mundane. It's product. If they come up with a, uh, hit product, they're kind of back. The, the problem is, is that this has become a meme stock, and keep in mind, uh, automotive revenue declined 20% year on year, Kara.

Kara Swisher 33:29 Right.

Scott Galloway 33:29 They're now, they're now the fastest declining automobile company, I think, in the world. I'm having trouble thinking of an automobile company that declined 20% year on year, and what is just so fucking cynical about Elon Musk is he goes after, he, you know, parachutes into town with a chainsaw and starts talking about government waste. Without government subsidies-

Kara Swisher 33:50 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 33:51 ... this company would have lost money.

Kara Swisher 33:52 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 33:53 It's just so incredibly cynical. It's government largess and subsidies-

Kara Swisher 33:57 Mm-hmm. These emissions regulations.

Scott Galloway 33:59 ... that have kept... that are the only reason that Tesla kept in, was in the black. And then, the, the thing about Tesla that said that we're not even an automotive company, and if we are an, uh, different, uh, an automotive company, or an entirely different type of automotive company, is they could point to the fact that electric cars have much fewer parts, dramatically collapsing the supply chain. He milled a lot of his own products, which would increase margin. He was, he's technically the most ver- vertical automaker in the world, and also to Tesla's credit, it's the most American-made car in America, meaning more parts that go into their car are from America. And as a result, in 2022, uh, Tesla had operating margins of 20%, which is staggering. That's double, that's at least double what the other big automakers report in terms of operating margin. But what's happened this year, this quarter? Their operating margins have dropped to 2.1%. So, this is an unprofitable, government-subsidized... I mean, this is DeLorean. Th- this is, this is a company that's riding on government subsidies right now.

Kara Swisher 35:04 Explain for the kids what DeLorean is, just so you know.

Scott Galloway 35:06 Oh, do you remember John DeL- so-

Kara Swisher 35:07 Yes, I do.

Scott Galloway 35:08 John DeLorean was kind of a, uh, a man's man in the '70s. I think he came from Chrysler GM-

Kara Swisher 35:13 Right.

Scott Galloway 35:13 ... and he was considered the best automobile designer. He d- designed the Pontiac GTO, and he raised a shit ton of money to start a new, uh, uh, a new automobile company called DeLorean that was famously portrayed in Back to the Future, and he got huge subsidies from the United Kingdom to say, the United Kingdom f- said, "All right, we're gonna give this company enormous subsidies to try and re-inspire manufacturing domestically," similar to a tariff, and then the car was kind of under-powered, and just didn't have any consumer reception, and then this photo came out of a, I think it was a, uh, warehouse in Ireland showing thousands of Te- of, uh, excuse me, DeLoreans just sitting there.

Kara Swisher 35:53 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 35:53 He was on the ropes. The UK said, "No more subsidies." It was not selling, and basically they set up a sting, the US government, to try and entrap him, and they did, and gave him the opportunity and seduced a guy, in my opinion unfairly, who was desperate to pull his company out of this tailspin, and he agreed to finance or take part in what was ultimately a cocaine trade, and then he was arrested on the spot. Uh, I believe he served some time, and then he converted to Christianity and, uh, uh, you know, he, he was, he was the-

Kara Swisher 36:23 It's 11...

Scott Galloway 36:24 You wanna talk about a fall from grace?

Kara Swisher 36:25 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 36:25 He was also married to one of the most beautiful women and a big model at the time-

Kara Swisher 36:28 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 36:28 I think Christina Ferrare, I think her name was?

Kara Swisher 36:30 Mm-hmm. That's right, yeah.

Scott Galloway 36:30 But he was an American icon that really-

Kara Swisher 36:33 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 36:33 ... fell from grace, and there's a couple-

Kara Swisher 36:35 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 36:35 I mean, uh, a lot of life lessons here, but more specifically, cars are almost impossible to make on a single platform. Uh, Rivian, which is an amazing car-

Kara Swisher 36:45 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 36:45 ... if you buy one for 80 grand, it's costing them 120 grand. It's all about scale.

Kara Swisher 36:50 Yeah. Yeah.

Scott Galloway 36:50 And when the sales of Tesla go down, you, it takes-

Kara Swisher 36:54 That's it.

Scott Galloway 36:54 ... it's, it's an especially big hit to earnings-

Kara Swisher 36:57 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 36:57 ... because this is a business all about scale, and when you start descaling, your profits are the tail of the whip.... but it's insane that this company... And the stock went up, that's what I don't get.

Kara Swisher 37:07 Well, because they think, you know, it's a meme stock. Like, it's never... Here's the problem. He has been warned by his own employees about the Cybertruck. He was warned about vari- uh, you know, different things were they warned. The other thing is, as we talked about last week, rolling, rolling odometers faster. All stuff like that. Saying we're gonna... Like, I think, this week he said, he was, he keeps going on and on about, uh, self-driving. That is not... He is nowhere near what he's been bragging, as you noted, you put the list of things he's told untruths about, um, or just, well, he's dreaming. I'll say, he, his dreams of what's gonna happen. And so, if he... He's gotta deliver and not promise. And the same thing with Doge. Um, two oh two trillion, or one two two trillion, not one trillion, two trillion I'm gonna save. And then they, they can, they can say 160 billion, and even that, David Fahrenthold has taken apart. He, he probably has cost the government more through this Doge thing than he has created. What he's done is he's destroyed things the right wing wants destroyed, like U- USAID or his, the regulators that are against him. He's not done any significant changes to the way the government works, which, you know, and again, as we've both pointed out, maybe the government works a lot better than you think. There's fewer government officials. I w- Evan Spiegel was pointing this out, there's fewer government workers than there were 20 years ago, and there's just more regulations, that's for sure. Um, but he's just hasn't... This is like... He has now become an over-promiser, an under-deliverer, and that's what he's doing here with these ridiculous s- s- talking about the robo-taxi. Let me just... U- Uber has $12 billion in revenue, that's it. That's far from a trillion dollar business. The second one, Optimus robots. A- are you gonna buy an Optimus robot, Scott? I, I don't know. Are you? Like, a million units?

Scott Galloway 38:54 This is... (sighs) This is... Okay, these guys are geniuses in saying that we have to put something out there in the future that's-

Kara Swisher 39:00 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 39:00 ... exciting and exotic-

Kara Swisher 39:01 Yes, love it. Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 39:01 ... they will never have to deliver up to, that people can at least fill their dreams and somewhat justify, so that I can have Cathie Wood say, "There's gonna be a billion robots," and justify my irrational valuation. By the way, just, I need to correct this. He was found, DeLorean was found not guilty, and I just wanna go back to this for a second. Uh, in '82, he was charged with cocaine trafficking after FBI informant James Hoffman solicited him as a financier in a scheme-

Kara Swisher 39:29 I think he was entrapped, yeah.

Scott Galloway 39:29 ... to sell 220 pounds. It was total entrapment.

Kara Swisher 39:32 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 39:32 At the time, you know, Tesla, or sorry (laughs) , DeLorean was on the verge of bankruptcy, and a guy approaches you who's a federal agent and says, "I have a way for you to make a lot of money if you fina- if you sell 200 pounds of cocaine," and he said yes. And then they try and charge him. I mean, you wanna-

Kara Swisher 39:48 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 39:48 ... talk about government overreach.

Kara Swisher 39:50 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 39:50 And then-

Kara Swisher 39:50 Agreed.

Scott Galloway 39:51 Anyways, but I don't... Uh, I'm sorry, back to Tesla. The robots? Give me a fucking break. I mean, come on. It... That, that is even more-

Kara Swisher 39:58 Oh, so the legal issues.

Scott Galloway 39:58 ... pie in the sky than a million self-driving, uh, Tesla taxis.

Kara Swisher 40:02 Right, right.

Scott Galloway 40:03 That is just insane. And by the way, the robots they featured at that big event were being controlled-

Kara Swisher 40:08 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 40:08 ... by people 50 feet away.

Kara Swisher 40:09 Yeah, same thing with the self-driving.

Scott Galloway 40:11 So, you wanna talk about jazz hands, um, I... But people are excited that he's back and focused-

Kara Swisher 40:17 That's right.

Scott Galloway 40:18 ... on Tesla.

Kara Swisher 40:19 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 40:19 So, good for them. I have learned to stay away from this stock, but i- this is a company now that as, is underperforming Ford Motor by a, a, a long shot, and yet trades at 70 times earnings, and Ford trades-

Kara Swisher 40:33 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 40:33 ... at whatever, 10, so-

Kara Swisher 40:35 Yeah. Also-

Scott Galloway 40:36 ... crazy town.

Kara Swisher 40:37 ... you know, I gotta tell you, the... He, he, he did the Cybertruck, guys. He did the Cybertruck, and it's a... Talk about a disastrous car, and the cost. When he could've been doing smaller cars, the way they were doing them in Japan, adorable ones. I bet they would've done a great job at those, like, uh, the, and all the different... There's ones in Japan, there's ones in China. Instead, he had to do his ridiculous, I-have-a-small-penis Cybertruck, and this is where we are. We'll see what he does. I, we'll see. Interesting to see if, uh... One last thing. Steve Bannon, who was at this conference I was at yesterday, um, uh, was noting, and we... I can't believe I agree with Steve Bannon on many things, but he said, "We need an absolute detailed list of the fraud he found, a detailed and, and checked independently list of the fraud he found, and a detailed list of any data that he has touched so that we know if he took it anywhere." Like, these two things, like, the data they've been collecting and coalescing around in a cert- in a, in a, ts- what did, what have these people done with the data? Uh, he- Steve Bannon is correct about this, because it's gonna show that very little was saved, and we have to have a, an independent assessment, which we're not gonna have until the end of the Trump administration, but, you know, I would agree with that. And we're not gonna get that, but that's, that's... We'll see. What, we don't know what's gonna happen to the stock because people have a thing with this guy, but he's definitely on a downward plunge, I think, in a lot of ways.

Scott Galloway 42:01 Well, well, let's talk a little bit about-

Kara Swisher 42:03 Sure.

Scott Galloway 42:03 ... Doge. He's claimed on stage he was gonna find $2 trillion in savings.

Kara Swisher 42:07 Yeah. Mm-hmm. Right.

Scott Galloway 42:08 Um, he's claimed $150 billion, which is obviously a lot less than $2 trillion, and so far, it looks as if it's approximately, uh, uh, they claim... Now they're saying $150 billion, it looks like it's more like $60 billion, and they can't even validate or confirm those savings. If, if you were to look at this as an audit of a $7 trillion company, the fact that they have gone in with full license, and what I'll call incredible adjectives and embellishments and exaggerations around quote unquote fraud and waste, the US government has come out with literally the cleanest bill of health of any organization that would undergo this type of reckless audit. The people, the auditors weren't there to give them a clean bill of health, the auditors were there to try and make them look stupid and exaggerate inefficiencies.

Kara Swisher 42:50 Right, and get rid of certain things, as I noted, yeah.

Scott Galloway 42:52 And every time they think they've found something, or not every time, but most of the time they think they've found fraud, waste, or inefficiency, and they posted it, someone, someone did a little bit of research on Google and said, "Actually, that's not accurate. You're exaggerating."

Kara Swisher 43:06 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 43:07 ... the savings or the waste or the fraud here. And by the way, I don't think there's been a single case where they've said...... there's fraud here, and we're, we're, we're charging these people.

Kara Swisher 43:16 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 43:17 So, what entity, what, what organization in the world could you have this type of biased, aggressive, unbrid- bridled audit that's doing 700 billion a year in sales, much less 7 trillion, and get this clean bill of health?

Kara Swisher 43:32 Although I don't even think they did a very good job. Like, who knows-

Scott Galloway 43:34 Yeah, that's right.

Kara Swisher 43:34 ... at what's there? Who... There might... I'm certain there's fraud all over the place, Medicaid and everything else, but they didn't-

Scott Galloway 43:39 It's like, now do the Pentagon. (laughs)

Kara Swisher 43:40 They didn't do it... It was all, it was all... And a lot of this spending we can't... It's already, it's stuff we can't touch.

Scott Galloway 43:45 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 43:45 And that's the real problem, whether it's Medicare, whether it's defense spending. There's certain stuff that can't be touched, Social Security, and it's a bigger problem of... Listen, at the heart, we shouldn't be, have these deficit, these enormous deficits. We overspend. Um, we have too many regulations. And that's a really good thing to attack. But this has just been a ridiculous jazz hands.

Scott Galloway 44:07 Thi- this was nothing but a-

Kara Swisher 44:08 Jazz hands.

Scott Galloway 44:08 ... weapon of mass distraction.

Kara Swisher 44:10 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 44:10 I- if the US was a household-

Kara Swisher 44:12 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 44:13 ... it makes 50,000 a year, it spends 70 and it has household debt of $370,000. And the bad news is that all of the kids in that house are gonna have to inherit that debt-

Kara Swisher 44:24 Yep, that's-

Scott Galloway 44:25 ... even after mom and dad die.

Kara Swisher 44:26 Yep. Yep.

Scott Galloway 44:27 And we don't want to have an adult conversation. The adult conversation is the following.

Kara Swisher 44:30 It's a chainsaw.

Scott Galloway 44:32 If you believe that fiscal responsibility means not spending $7 trillion and $5 trillion in tax revenue, all roads lead to the same place, folks. You either have to cut costs or cut, cut spending, or you have to raise taxes. And if you want to cut spending, you have to go after one or all of three areas. And that's either entitlements, Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, defense spending, or, uh, the interest rate, the interest on our debt. Those are the three b-... If you don't go after one or all of those things, y- you're not serious about cutting-

Kara Swisher 45:06 Correct.

Scott Galloway 45:07 ... our expenses. Or you have to acknowledge that the wealthiest in our society have figured out a way to weaponize the tax code and have an alternative minimum tax. The majority of very wealthy people pay very little in tax relative to their income, or increase corporate taxes. And what's the answer, folk, folks? All of the fucking above.

Kara Swisher 45:25 Yeah. But you're not gonna do-

Scott Galloway 45:26 But nobody-

Kara Swisher 45:26 Tr- They, they talked about it this week, Trump people, and then they just have been indicating no taxes on rich people.

Scott Galloway 45:33 Well, uh, uh, when I inter- when we interviewed Leader Jeffries, I think there's an opportunity for the Democrats to say, "We're the adults in the room. We're gonna have to means test Social Security, exten- move the age up." People like Kara Swisher and Scott Galloway should not get Social Security. It's called a Social Security tax, meaning you pay into it and might not get it back. It might, it's for the b- the better common good. It's not called the Social Security pension fund. We are going to have to figure out a way to get our medi- our medical costs from $13,000 a person down to $6,500. We're gonna do that by lowering the age eligibility of Medicaid and Medicare, which do a great job, until we have nationalized healthcare. We're gonna have to cut military spending at some point, or make it more efficient. And we're gonna have to announce that we are going to put $40 billion a year, $7,000 a year in every baby's 401 (k) that they don't have access to till they're 65, and announce that we are doing away with all Social Security in 65 years. And then in 30 years, interest rates will come down as people see a light at the end of the tunnel and we'll get to do away with this $1.3 trillion and growing tax on young people." But nobody wants-

Kara Swisher 46:34 Scott-

Scott Galloway 46:34 ... to have a fucking serious conversation.

Kara Swisher 46:34 ... Galloway is running for president. That's a really nice... I like all that. Scott, well, you know.

Scott Galloway 46:39 But the Democrats have an opportunity here, because the reality is, the swing voters in every election that determines the president, it's not based on transgender rights. It's not based on Ukraine. As much as, as important as those issues are, they don't swing elections. What swings elections is people in their 30s who are moderates, who basically vote on who they think will give them the best prospects to establish economic security-

Kara Swisher 47:00 Yep.

Scott Galloway 47:00 ... and have a reasonable life. And it swings back and forth. It's a swing issue. And over the last 40 years, Democratic administrations have created 40 million jobs. Republicans have created one million. Democrats need to seize... We're the adults in the room. We have to have an honest, hard conversation around our deficits and our fiscal and monetary policy, 'cause this is not sustainable. And you know what? People will respect it. And then when I ask Leader Jeffries, what they say is, "Well, at some point we're gonna have that conversation." At some, at some point tomorrow needs to be today. I think c- I think citizens are ready for this conversation.

Kara Swisher 47:35 No, today, yesterday. I agree. I think you need to run for president, as Ed said. Apparently Ed was telling you should run for president. That's, that's a very good... You should, you should be more involved in politics, Scott. I think you should. Anyway, I'll note also Alphabet. By the way, Tesla we think is i- is in a, in the crapper. Um, I'll note Alphabet-

Scott Galloway 47:52 By the way, I just wanna-

Kara Swisher 47:53 Okay.

Scott Galloway 47:53 ... I just wanna acknowledge. I've been doing research. You blew my mind with the notion of a combined-

Kara Swisher 47:56 Oh, you like that?

Scott Galloway 47:57 ... Tesla, x.ai, and SpaceX, uh, uh, you know. And I'm, I'm just like, that has totally blown my mind. (laughs)

Kara Swisher 48:05 (laughs) Oh, good.

Scott Galloway 48:05 But-

Kara Swisher 48:06 As long as you attribute it to me. Just attribute it. Don't tell.

Scott Galloway 48:09 I, I, I do, but that, the idea of him merging all of those companies, like-

Kara Swisher 48:13 Has to.

Scott Galloway 48:13 ... I can't wrap my head around what that would mean.

Kara Swisher 48:15 He's got to. He's got... It's the only move. It's the only move. It's the only move. It's a move, and he would do it. That's the two things. I, I, knowing him, I don't know him well anymore, but knowing him as I had known him, and it's the move. It's the jazz hands move of all time. It'll be loud, noisy. It'll be, "What a genius." Here's the last thing I'm gonna say about this. All you people that were go- were like slathering like over Elon when he was visiting, uh, Congress and protes- "We all love Doge." You don't all love Doge. You just, you, you are... The Republicans should be embarrassed for all the, all the kiss-assery they did to this guy, um, and what he was doing, and n- and, and abrogating their responsibilities as legislators. Just handing it over to this guy and saying, "You fix it," was the most irresponsible thing. And someday, there is gonna be a reckoning at some point, and you are not gonna be looked... You have not, you've not bathed yourself in any kind of glory. You've bathed yourself in embarrassment and suck-uppery. And so, that to me-

Scott Galloway 49:13 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 49:13 ... is really, um, the, the lesson here. We'll see where it goes, but...You know, I see why Donald Trump did it. The rest of you are grotesque, and so is Donald Trump. But anyway, I'll note Alphabet earnings are coming after we record, so we don't know what's gonna happen and, or anything they might say about, uh, the, the case that they, both cases they've lost. But we'll discuss next week, 'cause they're really at a crossroads. Google certainly is. All right, Scott. Let's go on a quick break. When we come back, we'll talk about Trump trying to calm the markets after his own comments created chaos once again.

Kara Swisher 49:44 Scott, we're back. It's another whiplash week on Wall Street. President Trump's attacks on the Fed chair, uh, Jerome Powell, calling him a major loser and criticizing his policies, rattled the market earlier this week, triggering a major sell-off of stocks and bonds. Uh, Trump later said he had no intention of firing Powell. By the way, he can't. It's very hard to do so, so it doesn't matter what he thinks. He also indicated some easing of tariff tension with China. Although China, uh, has sort of pushed back on that, comments did still fuel a market rebound. But as of Thursday morning, China is calling any reports of tariff talks, quote, "Baseless rumors," directly aimed at Trump there, sending the Dow down briefly, although the S&P 500 has been staying steady. Once the, again, the markets, uh, seemed to have spooked Trump, um, w- as they should. Uh, w- he met with CEOs of Target, Walmart, and Home Depot on Monday. Uh, it was interesting Amazon wasn't there, but ... who reportedly warned about tariffs leading to price surges and empty shelves. Within weeks, a dozen states also sued to block Trump's tariff, arguing he doesn't have the authority to impose them. Even though he says he's not firing Powell, he's been undermining him. He's trying to blame, he's gonna blame him for all this with the attacks. Uh, he continues to act like he has some sort of control over this. Um, let's talk about th- that for a minute. Well, actually, let me go through everything. And, uh, with China, Trump said this week that tariffs on Chinese goods will come down substantially, but won't be zero, and that the U.S., they weren't before, and the U.S. and China are actively talking, which I said China denies. One White House senior official told The Wall Street Journal that China tariffs would likely get reduced any, roughly between 50% and 65%. Another Trump blink seems imminent. Um, uh, again, Scott Bessent and Elon Musk got in a fight. It, I think it's, it's sort of in our rearview mirror. Scott Bessent won a- with the IRS pick. Um, this kind of chaos is just ins- insane, it seems. Like, he's just shooting himself in the foot over and over again, and then pretending, declaring victory when he, he goes back on the stupid thing he did. Let's hear what you think about this, Scott Galloway.

Scott Galloway 51:44 Well, (sighs) the only two things you have to remember in a negotiation are not to make it emotional, not to have it be a win-lose, and to always show a credible willingness to walk away. This guy gets an F on each of those. He's insulted them. His vice president has called them peasants. He makes it emotional. He, he pisses off ... People are human. If I'm a Canadian, I don't want to work with you. I'm willing to sacrifice my own economic prosperity.

Kara Swisher 52:12 Travel's down. Everything's down.

Scott Galloway 52:15 Uh, (sighs) you want to talk about ... I'm, and I was thinking about it today. Bill Ackman, on a unrelated note, Bill Ackman came out with this tweet that sent Hertz stock up 100%. And he said he'd ... uh, been aggregating a stake for a long time. And he said that because of these tariffs, the value of Hertz's automobile fleet is, it's f- a $14 billion fleet, uh, or $12 billion fleet. The cost of cars is gonna go up so much because of these tariffs-

Kara Swisher 52:41 And sell them.

Scott Galloway 52:42 ... that it's an un- that it's an underappreciated asset in the sense that their, their Hertz fleet is now worth $1.2 billion more. And I'm like, "This is the ultimate interpretive dance." Because one, uh, that's like saying, "My liver and my lungs are more valuable than, than they are to me." Well, I'm sort of fond of them. Like, how are you gonna harvest ... Unless Hertz announces it's selling its auto fleet, which they're not going to, and also they-

Kara Swisher 53:06 Well, they sell some of it. They do s- they do have a division that sells cars.

Scott Galloway 53:09 Yeah, but they have a division that buys cars.

Kara Swisher 53:11 I ... Yes, that's correct.

Scott Galloway 53:12 So, (laughs) so it should be a net neutral, right? Actually, a net negative, bec- because new cars will be more, th- those costs will be more than the increase in the value of the used cars you sell. And then the countervailing force of this what I'll call gymnastics and interpretive dance to try and turn chicken shit into chicken salad is that the majority of auto, the automobile rental market is based on tourism. And tourism is absolutely crashing. And let's just talk about reality here. As we're trying to boost the manufacturing sector that employs 11 million people, has anyone noticed while we were sleeping that tourism is fucking crashing, and also employs 12 million people? So, all of this interpretive dance around these sycophants trying to either pump a stock they have an activist i- uh, position in, or trying to claim that this guy's playing 4D chess, just can't look at data.

Kara Swisher 54:06 Right.

Scott Galloway 54:07 And, uh, and also, (laughs) back to Trump. He's been very emotional-

Kara Swisher 54:11 I like that you turned on Bill Ackman the way I had. But go ahead.

Scott Galloway 54:14 He's been, well, taught (music plays) ... I mean, it's like ... I, I-

Kara Swisher 54:15 What happened to this person?

Scott Galloway 54:16 ... would describe the day he announced that as remember when you'd go to interpretive dance or you look at modern art, and you're like, "Oh, you don't want, you wanna be cool, and then you wanna say, 'Oh, it's beautiful.'" And then you look at the next person, you're like, "This makes no fucking sense."

Kara Swisher 54:26 Yeah. Yeah.

Scott Galloway 54:26 I mean, this is ... His announcement that they have this undervalued asset is really modern art/interpretative dance.

Kara Swisher 54:32 Also, may I note, they have a lot of Teslas that nobody wants to rent. They did this whole ... Remember? They have-

Scott Galloway 54:37 But see, uh-

Kara Swisher 54:37 They have tons of Teslas they can't move.

Scott Galloway 54:39 When's the last time you rent- ... It's a shitty business (laughs) in structural decline that is highly levered.

Kara Swisher 54:41 (laughs) Agreed, but I'm just saying they did that whack deal. Every time they try to give me one, I'm like, "No. I shall not." And apparently nobody wants to r- rent a Tesla. Fuck them.

Scott Galloway 54:49 Anyways, it speaks to his brand, to Bill Ackman's brand, that he puts out a tweet of an insane thesis that makes no sense-

Kara Swisher 54:56 Oh, he's such a thirsty piece of shit. (laughs)

Scott Galloway 54:56 ... if you actually look at the data.

Kara Swisher 54:58 So thirsty. So thirsty.

Scott Galloway 54:58 Well, the stock doubled. You gotta give it to him. The guy's brand, uh, clear means-

Kara Swisher 55:01 Well, whatever. I don't know.

Scott Galloway 55:01 ... clearly still means something in the market.

Kara Swisher 55:03 I guess.

Scott Galloway 55:03 But back to, back to Trump. Highly emotional, creating enemies and agita where he doesn't need to that will only reduce our negotiating leverage when people will s- put their own ego now, like him, ahead of actual prosperity and fidelity to their stakeholders and to citizens and to their economy. And two, a credible willingness to walk away. He imposes 145% tariff, and then hours later says-

Kara Swisher 55:27 ... yeah.

Scott Galloway 55:28 The, the tariffs on Chinese goods will come down substantially, but won't be zero. Then why the fuck did you-

Kara Swisher 55:33 Deal with this.

Scott Galloway 55:34 ... go to 145%?

Kara Swisher 55:36 Yep. Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 55:37 This guy has... He is competing against people who are willing to starve millions of their own people, and he thinks he's gonna intimidate them with, "145? I meant... No, I... It... But they're gonna come down." They're gonna do... You're about, we're about to enter the stage where they try to figure out a way-

Kara Swisher 55:55 Right.

Scott Galloway 55:55 ... to basically somehow put lipstick on a pig here and call victory and stop all this nonsense. The tariffs are gonna be remarkably similar to what they did, what they were before all of this nonsense. But you're gonna have all these people trying to spin how it's some sort of great victory.

Kara Swisher 56:12 And then the deals. "W- they're coming to me for deals. They're g- trying to kiss my ass." That whole thing. Oh, stop, you sad, pathetic...

Scott Galloway 56:19 All we have done here is massively erode brand America.

Kara Swisher 56:24 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 56:24 It's gone from freedom, generosity, military might, prosperity, risk aggressiveness, opportunity, rule of law, to toxic uncertainty. And that, that brand does not command margins, it commands-

Kara Swisher 56:37 So what does he do?

Scott Galloway 56:38 ... negative margins.

Kara Swisher 56:38 Okay. You... Uh, look, first of all, Besson's trying to affect him, obviously, and he seems to have gained a bit of an upper hand against the two clown, the clown show of Howard, uh, whatever his name is, and Elon. And, uh, there was a f- there was an altercation, a very loud altercation between Besson and Musk over IRS head, who, which the Treasury Secretary should pick, FYI, not Elon Musk. Um, he was trying to pick a sycophant to take over the IRS, where our money comes from. Um, and, uh, what would you do if you were Besson right now? Like, what, le- besides leave, like, immediately? What would you do?

Scott Galloway 57:14 Uh, well, he's kind of already done it. He clearly leaked-

Kara Swisher 57:16 Right.

Scott Galloway 57:17 ... that, that interaction.

Kara Swisher 57:18 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 57:18 And he's saying, "I'm on top and I've had it with this guy."

Kara Swisher 57:21 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 57:22 Uh-

Kara Swisher 57:22 He abhors him-

Scott Galloway 57:22 ... Trump is scared. He's seen as...

Kara Swisher 57:25 Also.

Scott Galloway 57:25 Besson is seen as, like, a sycophant, but is potentially the guy in the Oval Office that will take stuff off his desk so he doesn't even see it, that he is sort of an adult in the room. He has a reputation. Versus Lutnick, that's just considered, uh, you know, a, a clown who, that is now en- engaged in full-scale corruption with his son starting-

Kara Swisher 57:45 Yep.

Scott Galloway 57:45 ... a crypto company. Jesus Christ.

Kara Swisher 57:47 I know. I know, the crypto stuff. I

Narrator 57:48 Don't even watch.

Scott Galloway 57:49 Just when you thought this couldn't get any more corrupt.

Kara Swisher 57:51 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 57:51 Besson is seen as a very credible guy and behind the scenes is basically saying, "Okay, I'm gonna do my best here. I know this is fucking batshit crazy." This is... We know where this goes. Blink, blink, blink, try and, try and run Vaseline over the lens of incompetence here and pretend this is a victory.

Kara Swisher 58:10 I never made this mistake and I'm not cleaning it now.

Scott Galloway 58:12 The tariffs are gonna be, look remarkably similar to where they were before.

Kara Swisher 58:17 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 58:17 And all that's happened is we have eroded our image around the world to the detriment of our-

Kara Swisher 58:21 So what would you do? You're sitting in the Oval Office, he has you and you, for some reason, go. And he list- he's listening to you. What would you say to Trump to do right now? Besides-

Scott Galloway 58:30 If I, if he would listen to me?

Kara Swisher 58:31 ... stop taking whatever you're taking in right now (laughs) .

Scott Galloway 58:34 I would, I would immediately... I would pretend to have discussions, declare victory and leave. Just, like, literally, uh, find a country that's willing to do something for you, come up with a bunch of fake reasons for why this was, uh, anything but what it was, which was insanely damaging, and literally get back to the economy and try and repair as many of our alliances as possible. And go on an a- go on the mother of all behind-the-scenes apology tours. Because this is gonna start showing up in earnings calls. I think China might say, "Oh, you wanna go back to where we were? Fuck you. You been out banging hookers and doing blow and ignoring our children, now you've decided you wanna be married again? Sorry, boss."

Kara Swisher 59:17 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 59:18 "Sorry, I'll be at my sister's."

Kara Swisher 59:19 That's a nice metaphor. Yeah.

Scott Galloway 59:21 Isn't it?

Kara Swisher 59:21 Yeah, I like it.

Scott Galloway 59:22 Anyways, speaking for a friend. Speaking for a friend.

Kara Swisher 59:24 Yeah, I think... I, I don't know. I think the Chinese and the, uh, and the Europeans are now like, "Huh. What would a life without these obnoxious Americans be like?"

Scott Galloway 59:31 100%.

Kara Swisher 59:32 Like, "Hey, I think a divorce sounds great."

Scott Galloway 59:36 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 59:36 Like, I, I'm sure that's what they're thinking. Do you know what I mean? Like...

Scott Galloway 59:39 Oh, my... My tennis pro is texting me.

Kara Swisher 59:41 Wait a minute.

Scott Galloway 59:42 (laughs)

Kara Swisher 59:42 Just a minute here.

Scott Galloway 59:44 My tennis pro-

Kara Swisher 59:44 Like, uh...

Scott Galloway 59:45 "My friends are going to St. Barts. That sounds pretty good."

Kara Swisher 59:48 He needs to... Ugh, what an idiot. What a fucking idiot.

Scott Galloway 59:50 No, this is-

Kara Swisher 59:51 I mean, the thing is, if he did a couple of things, all his stupid followers would, would, like clap, clap like the seals they are. Woo!

Scott Galloway 59:56 Yeah. They'll, they'll, they'll pretend that it was genius and 4D chess. So move to that part of the program as soon as possible.

Kara Swisher 1:00:03 Right.

Scott Galloway 1:00:03 You, you-

Kara Swisher 1:00:04 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 1:00:04 Uh, I mean, you, you literally have to put the fire out here. You have to put the fire out. But I don't know if he's... But think about our negotiation strategy.

Kara Swisher 1:00:10 He won- he wants a ten... He's been listening to Wall Street. Wall Street is the one that speaks with the truth, um, yeah.

Scott Galloway 1:00:15 The adult in the room is the ten-year, we've been saying that. I, I... Look, I don't... I, I'm glad Besson is there, but I do-

Kara Swisher 1:00:21 Ugh.

Scott Galloway 1:00:21 ... think the br- half of them... I think we're about... Well, I think we're on the cusp of, of few of them being fired, because he's gonna-

Kara Swisher 1:00:27 Yeah, Lutnick should go. What a thirsty-

Scott Galloway 1:00:29 Well, not even-

Kara Swisher 1:00:30 ... clown he is.

Scott Galloway 1:00:30 They... Most of them should go.

Kara Swisher 1:00:32 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 1:00:32 But I think he's gonna try and blame a lot of this on incompetence and saying, "You know, I got some bad information. These folks did the wrong thing."

Kara Swisher 1:00:39 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 1:00:40 "I've moved them out." He's gonna, he's gonna throw a bunch-

Kara Swisher 1:00:43 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 1:00:43 ... of 'em as a, as a, you know, into the volcano, if you will.

Kara Swisher 1:00:46 Right. Yeah.

Scott Galloway 1:00:46 Um-

Kara Swisher 1:00:47 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 1:00:47 But he-

Kara Swisher 1:00:47 And they're certainly not gonna tax the rich, that's for sure.

Scott Galloway 1:00:49 Look, a, a step back from the wrong direction is a step in the right direction. So if you were really, if you were really advising the guy, you'd say, as elegantly, as gracefully and as respectfully as possible, "You need to stop this shit really, really quickly." And behind the scenes, say, call Prime Minister Carney and say, "Congratulations. And by the way, you're a fantastic friend. A lot of this was posturing. I want to apologize to you personally."

Kara Swisher 1:01:16 Mm-mm. He's not gonna do that.

Scott Galloway 1:01:16 "What can we do this makes this better for both of us?"

Kara Swisher 1:01:18 He... All he needs is affirmation. It's so sad. It's such a sad, sad state at this age in his life that this is all he needs, but here we are. Anyway, uh, Scott, one more quick break. We'll be back for predictions.

Kara Swisher 1:01:32 Okay, Scott, let's hear our predictions. You've kind of let loose a few during the show here, but...

Scott Galloway 1:01:36 Well-

Kara Swisher 1:01:37 Pick one.

Scott Galloway 1:01:37 ... um-

Kara Swisher 1:01:37 Some good ones, I would-

Scott Galloway 1:01:38 This is, this is always dangerous, but I'm gonna do it anyways. Uh, Alphabet's reporting, we're talking about Thursday, Alphabet's reporting at the end of the day, and I think rumors of Alphabet's struggles have been greatly exaggerated. I still think while ChatGPT is ascending dramatically and presents, does present an existential threat to search, YouTube is just an absolute juggernaut. And w- you talk about Waymo, I just think this company is so well run, and Google continues to be the largest tollbooth in the history of mankind. I think that they are going to beat and, and I, I think they're gonna have, I think they're gonna beat expectations this afternoon, 'cause I think some of those expectations have been beaten down. And then I, another one, I think in the next 12 to 24 months, we're gonna see a, a spin prophylactically on Big Tech for the first time, and then I'd love-

Kara Swisher 1:02:26 All right, pick one, pick one. I'm gonna pick, uh, we'll each pick one.

Scott Galloway 1:02:29 Uh...

Kara Swisher 1:02:30 I say YouTube. Well, maybe the advertising stuff.

Scott Galloway 1:02:32 I think it's the ad business-

Kara Swisher 1:02:33 Ad business, you're right. Uh-

Scott Galloway 1:02:34 ... for, for YouTube. I'm sorry-

Kara Swisher 1:02:35 We-

Scott Galloway 1:02:35 ... ad business for Alphabet. And-

Kara Swisher 1:02:36 We would like YouTube, but it's probably the ad business.

Scott Galloway 1:02:39 And then the most interesting one, and this is, I'm putting words in your mouth or taking your words, and I will credit you, Tesla right now has, um, I think it's, like, a $750 billion market cap, right? And when you think about if you, when you're, essentially, when you're doing acquisitions or mergers, you wanna do them when your stock, it's, uh, god, it's 806 billion. You wanna do mergers when you have a really strong valuation because you end up... Uh, Steve Case sold AOL when he knew-

Kara Swisher 1:03:13 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 1:03:13 ... there was no way it was gonna be worth a fraction of that-

Kara Swisher 1:03:15 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 1:03:15 ... in a matter of months or years.

Kara Swisher 1:03:16 It's crazy town. Yeah.

Scott Galloway 1:03:17 So that's when you sell your company. The problem is no one will buy Tesla for $805 billion, except xAI, right? Or SpaceX.

Kara Swisher 1:03:29 And Splash. Yeah.

Scott Galloway 1:03:29 And so your idea is so interesting because what he could try to do is say, "Okay, I, I, I have... Jazz hands will only last so long." At some point people's heart, you know, saying, "Okay, enough is enough here, folks." That $800 billion market cap is gonna come way down. So the idea of taking a large revenue base, which you get from an automobile company, putting on top of it the impression-

Kara Swisher 1:03:52 The AI boom.

Scott Galloway 1:03:52 ... and evaluation of AI, with the data set of x, and also maybe some of the growth and, and rizz, and c- uh, unbelievable coolness of SpaceX, which would, that would be a lot, maybe he keeps that independent. But I think your idea is really insightful, that the way to maintain that ridiculous $800 billion valuation is to cash it in now-

Kara Swisher 1:04:14 Now.

Scott Galloway 1:04:14 ... and he'll have maintained a huge stake, and potentially-

Kara Swisher 1:04:19 He has to. See?

Scott Galloway 1:04:19 ... do kind of one, one that's going to 0.5 plus one, plus one equals four or five. I think you're right.

Kara Swisher 1:04:26 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 1:04:27 I think there's gonna be-

Kara Swisher 1:04:27 Thank you. I like this.

Scott Galloway 1:04:28 ... uh, I think Tesla is going to be folded into another-

Kara Swisher 1:04:31 And then they're an AI company.

Scott Galloway 1:04:33 ... or merged.

Kara Swisher 1:04:33 Or an AI company that makes robots-

Scott Galloway 1:04:35 Yeah, I, I just, I, I, I, I love that.

Kara Swisher 1:04:37 ... and software for self-driving.

Scott Galloway 1:04:38 Because when you said it, the moment you said it, I thought, "Oh, that would be really fucking smart."

Kara Swisher 1:04:42 You were, "I knew, I knew you would like that. I knew you would like it."

Scott Galloway 1:04:43 From a shareholder perspective.

Kara Swisher 1:04:44 Yeah, makes sense.

Scott Galloway 1:04:45 Anyways.

Kara Swisher 1:04:45 It's also like him. It's very like him. He's hiding things and-

Scott Galloway 1:04:48 Very bold. And he has control of his board.

Kara Swisher 1:04:50 Right, yeah.

Scott Galloway 1:04:51 He, he, he doesn't care. He'll tell the board, "This is what we're doing."

Kara Swisher 1:04:53 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 1:04:54 He's not scared of shareholder lawsuits.

Kara Swisher 1:04:54 Maybe he'll, well, I wonder if he'll take it private then. There's not a lot of revenue in any of these things, right?

Scott Galloway 1:05:00 Oh, no way. Can't take it private. No one will fund it.

Kara Swisher 1:05:01 Yeah, that's right, there's not a lot of revenue.

Scott Galloway 1:05:03 No one will finance it.

Kara Swisher 1:05:03 Well, you know, I, uh, I don't think the Starlink part, I mean, SpaceX is part of it. They, they have, they don't, uh, my guess, they don't, th- they don't make that much money. They probably, um, and they've been hurt themselves, but I think it's, they're very expensive to run that thing. And I, I, I'd love to actual see the numbers from that. If someone wants to send them to me, I'd love to see them. I don't think they're wildly profitable, by any stretch of the imagination, but, you know.

Scott Galloway 1:05:28 And finally, Kara, the prediction, uh, the, the geopolitical prediction. So Donald Trump is having a huge impact globally, including what leaders are elected or not elected, but it wasn't the impact he thought he was gonna have. Uh, in the Canadian elections for, uh, prime minister, uh, my prediction is that Mark Carney of the Liberal Party is gonna prevail. And that is after overcoming a 25 point deficit coming into the year. And why is the Liberal Party gonna prevail here? Donald Trump. He has so pissed off Canada and, uh, the Conservative Party, um, nominee for prime minister is aligned with Trump and considered a more Trumpian candidate. And boy, has Canada turned off Trump. So in sum, Trump has elected, in my opinion, or will elect, uh, Prime Minister Mark Carney of the Liberal Party, and has swung the Canadian elections 25 points because of how repellent they find Donald Trump, and the Conservative Party has been contaminated by Trump. So, he is getting world leaders elected, just not the world leaders that everyone, uh, had anticipated, or certainly not the ones he had hoped for. In sum, I think the underdog here, Mark Carney, is about to be the next Prime Minister of Canada, um, solely because of the unpopularity of our American president.Do you have a prediction?

Kara Swisher 1:06:58 I don't. I don't. I predict I'm gonna go to White House Correspondent Dinner parties this weekend.

Scott Galloway 1:07:03 Oh, I was gonna go, but I'm not in town.

Kara Swisher 1:07:05 Yeah. Why not? Why aren't you going?

Scott Galloway 1:07:06 I got asked by a friend of yours to be their date.

Kara Swisher 1:07:08 Who?

Scott Galloway 1:07:08 And I was really excited.

Kara Swisher 1:07:09 Oh.

Scott Galloway 1:07:09 And she's much, she's totally cool. I won't say who it is, but-

Kara Swisher 1:07:12 Who? A friend of mine asked you to be their date?

Scott Galloway 1:07:14 Well, a friend of ours. Yeah.

Kara Swisher 1:07:15 Oh, okay. Oh, yeah.

Scott Galloway 1:07:16 A friend of ours.

Kara Swisher 1:07:16 You should have. Oh, I know who it is.

Scott Galloway 1:07:18 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 1:07:18 Um, uh, you should have come. There's a good-

Scott Galloway 1:07:20 Emily Ratajkowski. Just saying.

Kara Swisher 1:07:22 (laughs) No, it's not Emily Rata-

Scott Galloway 1:07:23 Just saying.

Kara Swisher 1:07:23 Yeah, there's a bunch. There's every, every single media company. Like, Axios is having something. Uh, Substack, and my agents are ha-

Scott Galloway 1:07:28 It looks like so much fun.

Kara Swisher 1:07:30 Substack's having a bunch, to-

Scott Galloway 1:07:30 You've been, right?

Kara Swisher 1:07:31 The parties are fun. I hate, I hate to say it. Um, parties are fun.

Scott Galloway 1:07:35 I love it, though. I love it, though.

Kara Swisher 1:07:35 Uh, I don't go to the event itself ever, but there's like, NBC's having a party after at the French Embassy, and-

Scott Galloway 1:07:41 Ooh, the NBC party.

Kara Swisher 1:07:43 ... the NBC ... No, it's fun. It's fun. I'm telling you. I love that French Embassy.

Scott Galloway 1:07:45 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 1:07:45 Um, it's so ridiculous. It's