Trump's Tariffs and Tirades Fuel Market Mayhem | Pivot

1. 0:00 – 7:58

   Intro

   1. SGScott Galloway0:00

      All we have done here is massively erode brand America. It's gone from freedom, generosity, military might, prosperity, risk aggressiveness, opportunity, rule of law, to toxic uncertainty, and that, that brand does not command margins. It commands negative margin. (instrumental music)

   2. KSKara Swisher0:26

      Hi, everyone. This is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Kara Swisher.

   3. SGScott Galloway0:30

      And I'm Scott Galloway.

   4. KSKara Swisher0:32

      How you doing, Scott? Guess what? Guess what?

   5. SGScott Galloway0:34

      What, Kara?

   6. KSKara Swisher0:34

      We are Webby winners-

   7. SGScott Galloway0:36

      Oh, my God.

   8. KSKara Swisher0:36

      ... once again.

   9. SGScott Galloway0:37

      Oh, my God.

   10. KSKara Swisher0:38

       Pivot.

   11. SGScott Galloway0:38

       I just wanna thank the Academy.

   12. KSKara Swisher0:40

       Okay. The Pivot won the Webby Award and the People's Choice Award-

   13. SGScott Galloway0:43

       Both.

   14. KSKara Swisher0:43

       ... both of them.

   15. SGScott Galloway0:44

       Yeah, yeah.

   16. KSKara Swisher0:45

       We like that the people love us for the be- for the best-

   17. SGScott Galloway0:48

       And the judges, right?

   18. KSKara Swisher0:49

       ... business podcast. And the judges, yeah, the judges-

   19. SGScott Galloway0:50

       Yeah.

   20. KSKara Swisher0:50

       ... and the people. We've got, we've got a lot to get to today, but let's take a moment... And also, you won for Profy. What did you win over there?

   21. SGScott Galloway0:56

       Uh, not... We won, uh, for Profy & Markets, or for Raging Moderates, we were an honoree, which just means-

   22. KSKara Swisher1:03

       Mm-hmm.

   23. NANarrator1:03

       Mm-hmm.

   24. SGScott Galloway1:03

       ... please send in your $1,300 a year next year to be considered for something.

   25. KSKara Swisher1:07

       Yeah, no, no.

   26. SGScott Galloway1:07

       And then, by the way, this business, we should be in the awards business.

   27. KSKara Swisher1:10

       Yeah.

   28. SGScott Galloway1:10

       This is such a racket.

   29. KSKara Swisher1:11

       But you will. You just won.

   30. SGScott Galloway1:12

       And then Profy & Markets won the People's Choice Award-
2. 7:58 – 18:19

   Instagram Co-Founder’s Testimony Against Meta

   1. KSKara Swisher7:58

      Instagram co-founder Kevin Systrom testified this week that the app was underfunded after Meta bought it, boosting the FTC's argument that the company was illegally anti-competitive. Systrom said that Zuckerberg was not investing in the Instagram, uh, app 'cause he saw it as a threat to Facebook, which he felt was better. He was incorrect, but that's what he felt. Um, I interviewed Systrom, and let me... Um, let's listen to this clip 'cause they used it in the trial to try to impugn Kevin Systrom.

   2. KSKevin Systrom8:25

      Uh, we were struggling to keep the setup, $500 million valuation, and then Mark came along and was like, "Hey, how about I double that? And you get to keep working on what you love, and you get all the expertise of Facebook."

   3. KSKara Swisher8:35

      Mm, access.

   4. KSKevin Systrom8:35

      "You get to work with me, Sheryl, Schrep, et cetera." Um, and that sounded like a really good deal.

   5. KSKara Swisher8:41

      Mm-hmm.

   6. KSKevin Systrom8:41

      And if you look in retrospect, I think it was a great deal.

   7. KSKara Swisher8:44

      Mm-hmm.

   8. KSKevin Systrom8:45

      Think about all the things we've accomplished being part of Facebook.

   9. KSKara Swisher8:48

      Mm-hmm.

   10. KSKevin Systrom8:48

       All the things we have plugged into, whether it's hiring, spam fighting, the ad system.

   11. KSKara Swisher8:53

       Mm-hmm.

   12. KSKevin Systrom8:53

       I mean, we have thousands of salespeople who are basically selling ads for Instagram.

   13. KSKara Swisher8:58

       Mm-hmm.

   14. KSKevin Systrom8:58

       And we snapped our fingers to access them.

   15. KSKara Swisher9:00

       Right.

   16. KSKevin Systrom9:00

       So, a lot of really great stuff is-

   17. KSKara Swisher9:02

       Did you actually snap your fingers?

   18. KSKevin Systrom9:03

       Yes, I snapped my fingers.

   19. KSKara Swisher9:04

       (laughs) Yeah, salespeople could vouch-

   20. KSKevin Systrom9:05

       Um, no, but I guess my point is like-

   21. KSKara Swisher9:06

       I get it. It's like, which would've happened without the other, kind of thing?

   22. KSKevin Systrom9:10

       I mean-

   23. KSKara Swisher9:10

       If not for this, then that.

   24. KSKevin Systrom9:11

       ... I bet you we would've been successful as an independent company-

   25. KSKara Swisher9:13

       Mm-hmm.

   26. KSKevin Systrom9:13

       ... as well.

   27. KSKara Swisher9:14

       Mm-hmm. So, they were using this to say that he was happy there. And, um, now let's listen then to a clip from 2023 at South by Southwest where I interviewed Kevin.

   28. KSKevin Systrom9:23

       I think the worst part of the sale was just, like, trying to both accomplish something great with the company-

   29. KSKara Swisher9:29

       Mm-hmm.

   30. KSKevin Systrom9:30

       ... and also merge it into a company that didn't quite know how to look at you. Were you a competitor? Were we excited to own you? Like, it's like a roommate who moves in, and you're like, "Oh," like, "this person's really cool, but also, there's stuff everywhere."
3. 18:19 – 21:28

   Meta and Apple Fined By EU

   1. KSKara Swisher18:19

      Meta and Apple are the first companies to be fined for violations of the EU's Digital Markets Act. Of course, they were gonna... This was gonna happen, antitrust rules. Meta about 230 million, Apple's 570 million. Both have been given 60 days to comply. Um, it's hardly any money. Um, so any thoughts on that? Any thoughts on that?

   2. SGScott Galloway18:38

      ...on the antitrust?

   3. KSKara Swisher18:39

      Yeah. They, they, they're, the, the Europeans are, are extracting funds. I think they're probably not gonna pay and they'll just keep, you know, objecting to it for a while.

   4. SGScott Galloway18:47

      The question I have rem- ma- may- I'm hoping you know more about this than I do, but is it okay, everything's fine and continue? Because that's a parking ticket in terms of their (air whooshing) flow.

   5. KSKara Swisher18:55

      No, they have to comply with the rules. So, they, they have to decide what to do. They can pull out of the things, they could close down services. But they've done that in various countries. I think in Canada, uh, Facebook pulled out of news. Uh, they don't put news on there and only right-wing... There was a great piece about how sort of right-wing blather invades social media there, 'cause Facebook has pulled news organizations out of 'cause of something they didn't like. So, they'll have to either comply with the rules or they're gonna have to leave, I suppose.

   6. SGScott Galloway19:22

      And this is, uh, I mean, okay, so the good guys, you could argue, are winning here. Uh, uh, uh, s- so the EU fined both, they fined them both for violating-

   7. KSKara Swisher19:31

      Yeah. Mm-hmm.

   8. SGScott Galloway19:31

      ...the new Digital Markets Act-

   9. KSKara Swisher19:32

      Right.

   10. SGScott Galloway19:32

       ...and it's the first time that the law has been-

   11. KSKara Swisher19:35

       Yeah.

   12. SGScott Galloway19:35

       ...has been enforced.

   13. KSKara Swisher19:36

       Yeah.

   14. SGScott Galloway19:36

       It was $570 million for Apple and-

   15. KSKara Swisher19:38

       Yeah, 230.

   16. SGScott Galloway19:38

       ...230 million for-

   17. KSKara Swisher19:39

       For Meta.

   18. SGScott Galloway19:40

       ...Meta.

   19. KSKara Swisher19:40

       Yeah, I just said that, yeah.

   20. SGScott Galloway19:41

       But w- we'll say it again.

   21. KSKara Swisher19:44

       All right, okay. (laughs)

   22. SGScott Galloway19:44

       Okay, so anyways, I'm saying it again.

   23. KSKara Swisher19:46

       I know you have research in front of you, but go ahead, keep going.

   24. SGScott Galloway19:49

       Uh, uh, yeah, and then, uh, so w- what is that, half of what Apple and Meta make in one day?

   25. KSKara Swisher19:56

       Yeah.

   26. SGScott Galloway19:56

       So, the question is, uh, the question for me is, is it gonna happen every month unless they change their behavior or is this like that old fine where they effectively-

   27. KSKara Swisher20:06

       That's it.

   28. SGScott Galloway20:06

       ...are like, "Okay, you were bad, now continue to be bad, and you got caught this time and we're fining you, but it's not gonna really"-

   29. KSKara Swisher20:13

       I shall find out.

   30. SGScott Galloway20:14

       "change future behavior."
4. 21:28 – 25:07

   Sarah Palin Loses NYT Suit

   1. KSKara Swisher21:28

      the next one, former Alaska Governor Sarah Palin has lost the retrial of a 2017 defamation lawsuit against the New York Times. Palin filed a lawsuit after the Times ran an editorial claiming she had engaged in a political incitement ahead of the 2011 shooting of Gabby Giffords, incorrectly drawing ties to an advertisement. The Times, uh, issued a correction in under 24 hours, but Palin's legal team argued the mistake was actual malice. The bar for actual malice is high, established in 19- uh, 1964 case, very famous, New York Times versus Sullivan, which the Trump Administration is trying to get overturned and, or changed, protects, uh, news outlets from liability while they, uh, when, when they publish false statements, uh, as they did... Uh, uh, i- i- as long as they did not do so knowingly or willingly or, or, uh, with actual malice. The Supreme Court Justices, again, Thomas and Gorsuch, have called for the court to revisit the malice standard for, for well-known people. If you're not a well-known person, you can, you can sue for defamation much easier. Obviously, Palin is super well-known. Um, so she came back the second time, it was like in two hours, um, uh, you know, w- uh, the, the, uh, the, um, the Times had great lawyers, j- FYI, and also the person who made the mistakes, James Barnett, who has since left the Times, uh, apologized to Palin, Palin on the stand this time and actually cried. I, I, I know him pretty well. Um, I thought it was quite dignified for he, for him to do so, like to apologize like that. I think it probably really helped the case. Um, I don't think the issue is ever gonna win, but I think that this is over, this is the last stop for her unless... I don't know if she can keep appealing, but any thoughts?

   2. SGScott Galloway23:02

      Uh, I think she's, uh, just a trivial question at this point. Um, she caught this moment of charisma and fire, and then over the course of the last 10 or 12 years, uh, Governor Palin has just revealed herself to not be a serious person.

   3. KSKara Swisher23:18

      Yeah.

   4. SGScott Galloway23:18

      And-

   5. KSKara Swisher23:18

      That's not very serious. You usually do jokes, but go ahead.

   6. SGScott Galloway23:21

      Well, and then, and then, uh, I, I think this is a- actually really important because-

   7. KSKara Swisher23:26

      Mm-hmm.

   8. SGScott Galloway23:26

      ...I think this would have inspired a ton of...

   9. KSKara Swisher23:28

      Yeah.

   10. SGScott Galloway23:29

       The reality is when you're... O- o- one of the key tenets of America that's really wonderful is pretty much anyone can say pretty much anything about pretty much anybody. If you, if it ends up you know you're spreading misinformation against someone less powerful than you, not famous, and it, it creates economic harm or undue stress, then you have a libel or slander case. And I think the l- you know, the law mostly gets it right. And they said in this case, "Look, you are doing, you are such a public figure, you continue to say like kind of, uh, you know, insane things. People respond, people cover you, people are, quite frankly, biased against you, and they're allowed to be biased against you." And, uh, she was unable to prove that... Uh, uh, look, I, I, to me, this seemed fairly obvious. And so-

   11. KSKara Swisher24:12

       It did, but people were worried about this case and a lot of others-

   12. SGScott Galloway24:15

       Uh, in this age, yeah.

   13. KSKara Swisher24:15

       ...including why, uh, George Stephanopoulos, they settled for that thing that he did-

   14. SGScott Galloway24:19

       Agreed.

   15. KSKara Swisher24:19

       ...to Nancy Mace. They were w- I think there were probably some sort of texts that, that he was warned several times in that case, um, or something. So, there was something there for the reason Disney caved. There, there must've been, um, but, but they w- I talked to people at Disney, they were worried that it would go to the Supreme Court. Like, they, everyone's worried about a Times versus Sullivan case getting to the Supreme Court, which it eventually will, 'cause the right is very much intent on cutting back. You know, they're trying to get rid of SLAPP laws, they're trying to get, which, uh, protects journalists from being, you know, nuisance lawsuits in many states, not every state, which is why they try to sue in places like Texas and other places. Um, but they're on the march trying to, t- overturn these things, just like-... Trump tried to overturn the Civil Rights Act this week, or... Anyway, uh, it- it was good for the New York Times, it- it was the right decision. You're right.

5. 25:07 – 30:17

   Late Zappos Co-Founder’s Newly Found Will

   1. KSKara Swisher25:07

      And lastly, uh, late Zappos fou- co-founder Tony Hsieh did have a concrete plans for his $1.2 billion fortune when he died, via recently found will, according to the Wall Street Journal. This was interesting. I knew Tony very well. Uh, it was a sad end to a- a lovely person who was quite troubled. The document notes that if any family members challenge his wishes, all will receive nothing, marks, um, $3 million for Hsieh's, uh, alma mater, Harvard, and allocates over, uh, um, a whole bunch of money to undisclosed, uh, recipients he wanted to surprise. Um, he left a lot of Post-it notes of- of things, and so he was sort of... He had a real problem, a dr- really, essentially a drug problem at the end of his life, and, uh, they thought he had died without, uh, instructions, but- and- and he really... The last part of his life during COVID was really disturbing, I think. Um, so, you know, it's- it's a coda. I'm glad he gave money to Harvard and other places, but it- it just reminded me of a very sad story of- of tech and media.

   2. SGScott Galloway26:04

      It is really sad, and it's a- a- a... I remember being invited, he had created this kind of, for a lack of a better term, kind of cool e-commerce hub, commune kind of thing.

   3. KSKara Swisher26:14

      In Vegas, yeah.

   4. SGScott Galloway26:15

      In Vegas. And-

   5. KSKara Swisher26:16

      Yeah.

   6. SGScott Galloway26:17

      ... uh, he invited me to speak. They used to do these little gatherings. And everyone said, "Oh, you should go. It's a total party."

   7. KSKara Swisher26:23

      (laughs) Yeah, it is a party.

   8. SGScott Galloway26:23

      And I never- I never went.

   9. KSKara Swisher26:25

      Yeah.

   10. SGScott Galloway26:25

       Uh, but his is sort of a tragic lesson on if you don't keep some perspective around why people are around you.

   11. KSKara Swisher26:33

       Yeah.

   12. SGScott Galloway26:33

       And also, he- he made... He's a big boy, he made his own decisions, but there's, you know, they s- there's this... I forget the adage, the more famous you become, the- the lonelier you get-

   13. KSKara Swisher26:44

       Yeah.

   14. SGScott Galloway26:44

       ... is essentially. And he struck me as someone who really struggled-

   15. KSKara Swisher26:47

       Yeah.

   16. SGScott Galloway26:48

       ... with loneliness. And when I was with... I met with the head of, uh, uh, Warner Brothers Film, and I like to... we spitball ideas. And one of my ideas, I think the most... You know, there was that whole raft of Big Tech, there was Bad Blood-

   17. KSKara Swisher27:02

       Right.

   18. SGScott Galloway27:02

       ... WeCrashed-

   19. KSKara Swisher27:04

       Right.

   20. SGScott Galloway27:04

       ... the one about Uber.

   21. KSKara Swisher27:05

       Mm-hmm.

   22. SGScott Galloway27:05

       And I said, "The most interesting one hasn't been told." I think-

   23. KSKara Swisher27:07

       Oh.

   24. SGScott Galloway27:07

       ... the story of Tony Hsieh is actually the most interesting story.

   25. KSKara Swisher27:10

       I would agree. I think that's a great idea. It is interesting. I mean, I spent a lot of time with Tony and interviewed him num- many times. He was a gentle soul, uh, we would have a running joke because he- he was a hugger. He'd always be like, "Come here." And he did this Happiness Tour, which sort of was a- a tell he was so sad, he needed to have a Happiness Tour. Um, but he's always like, uh, "You know, I'm gonna hug you," and I said, "I'll break your arms if you do." I did a video, which I would send you, but you wouldn't watch, of my tour of their- of their Zappos office. It was a very cult-like kind of... You know how, uh, uh, Japanese companies, they do calisthenics together and that kind of stuff? He was trying to have this sort of happiness thing, and he had a guy who was Head of Happiness there, and would take you through on the tour, and, you know, they'd have all this, like, can- a lot of candy happening, a lot of sugar, a lot of, like, creative stuff in the- in the office with the people, and everyone had their own little teams. It was... I found it... I said, I called it forced fun. I was like, "I don't want to have any forced fun with people at work." And, um... But he- he tried to create these ethos, and he s- did the same thing in Vegas, you know, creating, trying to revive Downtown Vegas. And it was, uh, uh, a lot of it was very abou- much about him, and he had this holacracy thing. We wrote about it a bunch in- at all- at, uh, Recode. Um, he had a whole theory of management, and it just was... I remember last time I saw him, I thought, which was a... He came to CODE every year, and he play-... He's a very good poker player, and he was drinking. He had a certain drink he drank a lot of. Um, oh, I can't remember. It was not absinthe, but it was like that. It was something... Fernet, he loved Fernet. That was it. Um, and, um, and he was so sad, you could tell, uh, and was sort of... was jocul-... you know, forced- forced jocularity, and, uh, but a very gentle soul. Anyway.

   26. SGScott Galloway28:54

       So, um, back to me, um, and I'll relate this to nitrous. I love nitrous, and I have terrible dental hygiene. I've come out of the closet, as somebody-

   27. KSKara Swisher29:03

       Yeah.

   28. SGScott Galloway29:03

       I brush my teeth twice a day.

   29. KSKara Swisher29:04

       Oh.

   30. SGScott Galloway29:04

       That's it. I think I've flossed maybe six times in my life.
6. 30:17 – 32:11

   Elon Stepping Back from DOGE

   1. KSKara Swisher30:17

      he's- shocker of shockers, Elon says he's scaling back his time at Doge, uh, starting in May, claiming his work is mostly done, which means he got nothing done. He will instead be allocating more of his time to Tesla. The announcement came in the wake of Tesla's brutal earnings report, with net income falling 71% during the first quarter of 2025. In a letter to shareholders, the company referenced changing political sentiment that could have meaningful impact on demand for our products in the near term. What do you think? Tesla's shares were up over 5% following this announcement that he's returning to the company, which is shocking, because I think him not returning to the company is probably better for it. And as of this recording, it's still up. Uh, we've, of course, been calling this for weeks. Scott, let's listen to what you said back in February.

   2. SGScott Galloway30:57

      Doge and Elon Musk are gonna fade away, 'cause you can be sure he's doing the math...... and he's like, "Even if I can, even if I can get rid of all those pesky regulators, I'm still losing money here because my sales are plummeting." Because the general public across the US, much less Europe, when they see these idiots surrendering to Putin, and when they see the type of recklessness, and they see that they're not saving any money, all they're (laughs) doing is making our government less competent, uh, you're gonna see Tesla sales continue to plummet, Tesla stock continue to go down, and I think he's gonna fade back to the corporate sector.

   3. KSKara Swisher31:35

      Boom goes Scott Galloway. You wait-

   4. SGScott Galloway31:37

      There you go.

   5. KSKara Swisher31:37

      ... this is why we won a Webby. This is why.

   6. SGScott Galloway31:39

      That's right.

   7. KSKara Swisher31:39

      This is why.

   8. SGScott Galloway31:40

      That's right.

   9. KSKara Swisher31:40

      So, um, it all came true. Um, obviously, uh, the, the, besides the sh- the shares being up though, mo- if you look, take apart the report, they would have been in- drastically non-profitable had it not been for selling emissions things that Trump is trying to get rid of, and investments, I think, in Bitcoin or something like that. It earned this 595 million, and again, these regulatory credits to other automakers, uh, which are gonna be rolled back, uh, was critical to that. Um, it wasn't 'cause of cars. Um,

7. 32:11 – 49:44

   Elon and Tesla’s Future

   1. KSKara Swisher32:11

      have you think- do you think the company... Let's go for more. Uh, has the company been permanently damaged? And again, I would underscore, it's not just the political stuff. They haven't made a great product. They made the Cybertruck, which is a dud, and they haven't rolled out great products that other carmakers, 'cause all other carmakers are going up in EVs and hybrids. So, more than 47% of Americans have a negative view of the company, according to a new CNBC survey, uh, more- and more than 52% have a negative view of Musk. So, how do they get out of the brand hole, also financially? Um, he's touting robotaxis, which he says will move the financial needle in a significant way. This is not true. He's got competitors. With Waymo, he's predicting one million units of the Optimus robots in less than five years. I think Optimus robots is the Cybertruck of the next thing that he's doing. So, what do you see in the next couple of... Let's have some predictions from Scott Galloway on this topic.

   2. SGScott Galloway33:00

      Yeah, but whatever I predict about Tesla tends to be wrong, but-

   3. KSKara Swisher33:03

      I'm not talking about the stock, 'cause I think you were right about... I'm talking about can he pull out of this hole, one. Can they pull out? I think they can't, but I- I don't- I want- love to know what you think.

   4. SGScott Galloway33:12

      Well, it all comes down to one thing.

   5. KSKara Swisher33:13

      Right.

   6. SGScott Galloway33:13

      I- i- it's very mundane. It's product. If they come up with a, uh, hit product, they're kind of back. The, the problem is, is that this has become a meme stock, and keep in mind, uh, automotive revenue declined 20% year on year, Kara.

   7. KSKara Swisher33:29

      Right.

   8. SGScott Galloway33:29

      They're now, they're now the fastest declining automobile company, I think, in the world. I'm having trouble thinking of an automobile company that declined 20% year on year, and what is just so fucking cynical about Elon Musk is he goes after, he, you know, parachutes into town with a chainsaw and starts talking about government waste. Without government subsidies-

   9. KSKara Swisher33:50

      Yeah.

   10. SGScott Galloway33:51

       ... this company would have lost money.

   11. KSKara Swisher33:52

       Yeah.

   12. SGScott Galloway33:53

       It's just so incredibly cynical. It's government largess and subsidies-

   13. KSKara Swisher33:57

       Mm-hmm. These emissions regulations.

   14. SGScott Galloway33:59

       ... that have kept... that are the only reason that Tesla kept in, was in the black. And then, the, the thing about Tesla that said that we're not even an automotive company, and if we are an, uh, different, uh, an automotive company, or an entirely different type of automotive company, is they could point to the fact that electric cars have much fewer parts, dramatically collapsing the supply chain. He milled a lot of his own products, which would increase margin. He was, he's technically the most ver- vertical automaker in the world, and also to Tesla's credit, it's the most American-made car in America, meaning more parts that go into their car are from America. And as a result, in 2022, uh, Tesla had operating margins of 20%, which is staggering. That's double, that's at least double what the other big automakers report in terms of operating margin. But what's happened this year, this quarter? Their operating margins have dropped to 2.1%. So, this is an unprofitable, government-subsidized... I mean, this is DeLorean. Th- this is, this is a company that's riding on government subsidies right now.

   15. KSKara Swisher35:04

       Explain for the kids what DeLorean is, just so you know.

   16. SGScott Galloway35:06

       Oh, do you remember John DeL- so-

   17. KSKara Swisher35:07

       Yes, I do.

   18. SGScott Galloway35:08

       John DeLorean was kind of a, uh, a man's man in the '70s. I think he came from Chrysler GM-

   19. KSKara Swisher35:13

       Right.

   20. SGScott Galloway35:13

       ... and he was considered the best automobile designer. He d- designed the Pontiac GTO, and he raised a shit ton of money to start a new, uh, uh, a new automobile company called DeLorean that was famously portrayed in Back to the Future, and he got huge subsidies from the United Kingdom to say, the United Kingdom f- said, "All right, we're gonna give this company enormous subsidies to try and re-inspire manufacturing domestically," similar to a tariff, and then the car was kind of under-powered, and just didn't have any consumer reception, and then this photo came out of a, I think it was a, uh, warehouse in Ireland showing thousands of Te- of, uh, excuse me, DeLoreans just sitting there.

   21. KSKara Swisher35:53

       Yeah.

   22. SGScott Galloway35:53

       He was on the ropes. The UK said, "No more subsidies." It was not selling, and basically they set up a sting, the US government, to try and entrap him, and they did, and gave him the opportunity and seduced a guy, in my opinion unfairly, who was desperate to pull his company out of this tailspin, and he agreed to finance or take part in what was ultimately a cocaine trade, and then he was arrested on the spot. Uh, I believe he served some time, and then he converted to Christianity and, uh, uh, you know, he, he was, he was the-

   23. KSKara Swisher36:23

       It's 11...

   24. SGScott Galloway36:24

       You wanna talk about a fall from grace?

   25. KSKara Swisher36:25

       Yeah.

   26. SGScott Galloway36:25

       He was also married to one of the most beautiful women and a big model at the time-

   27. KSKara Swisher36:28

       Mm-hmm.

   28. SGScott Galloway36:28

       I think Christina Ferrare, I think her name was?

   29. KSKara Swisher36:30

       Mm-hmm. That's right, yeah.

   30. SGScott Galloway36:30

       But he was an American icon that really-
8. 49:44 – 1:01:32

   Trump Sparks Market Mayhem

   1. KSKara Swisher49:44

      Scott, we're back. It's another whiplash week on Wall Street. President Trump's attacks on the Fed chair, uh, Jerome Powell, calling him a major loser and criticizing his policies, rattled the market earlier this week, triggering a major sell-off of stocks and bonds. Uh, Trump later said he had no intention of firing Powell. By the way, he can't. It's very hard to do so, so it doesn't matter what he thinks. He also indicated some easing of tariff tension with China. Although China, uh, has sort of pushed back on that, comments did still fuel a market rebound. But as of Thursday morning, China is calling any reports of tariff talks, quote, "Baseless rumors," directly aimed at Trump there, sending the Dow down briefly, although the S&P 500 has been staying steady. Once the, again, the markets, uh, seemed to have spooked Trump, um, w- as they should. Uh, w- he met with CEOs of Target, Walmart, and Home Depot on Monday. Uh, it was interesting Amazon wasn't there, but ... who reportedly warned about tariffs leading to price surges and empty shelves. Within weeks, a dozen states also sued to block Trump's tariff, arguing he doesn't have the authority to impose them. Even though he says he's not firing Powell, he's been undermining him. He's trying to blame, he's gonna blame him for all this with the attacks. Uh, he continues to act like he has some sort of control over this. Um, let's talk about th- that for a minute. Well, actually, let me go through everything. And, uh, with China, Trump said this week that tariffs on Chinese goods will come down substantially, but won't be zero, and that the U.S., they weren't before, and the U.S. and China are actively talking, which I said China denies. One White House senior official told The Wall Street Journal that China tariffs would likely get reduced any, roughly between 50% and 65%. Another Trump blink seems imminent. Um, uh, again, Scott Bessent and Elon Musk got in a fight. It, I think it's, it's sort of in our rearview mirror. Scott Bessent won a- with the IRS pick. Um, this kind of chaos is just ins- insane, it seems. Like, he's just shooting himself in the foot over and over again, and then pretending, declaring victory when he, he goes back on the stupid thing he did. Let's hear what you think about this, Scott Galloway.

   2. SGScott Galloway51:44

      Well, (sighs) the only two things you have to remember in a negotiation are not to make it emotional, not to have it be a win-lose, and to always show a credible willingness to walk away. This guy gets an F on each of those. He's insulted them. His vice president has called them peasants. He makes it emotional. He, he pisses off ... People are human. If I'm a Canadian, I don't want to work with you. I'm willing to sacrifice my own economic prosperity.

   3. KSKara Swisher52:12

      Travel's down. Everything's down.

   4. SGScott Galloway52:15

      Uh, (sighs) you want to talk about ... I'm, and I was thinking about it today. Bill Ackman, on a unrelated note, Bill Ackman came out with this tweet that sent Hertz stock up 100%. And he said he'd ... uh, been aggregating a stake for a long time. And he said that because of these tariffs, the value of Hertz's automobile fleet is, it's f- a $14 billion fleet, uh, or $12 billion fleet. The cost of cars is gonna go up so much because of these tariffs-

   5. KSKara Swisher52:41

      And sell them.

   6. SGScott Galloway52:42

      ... that it's an un- that it's an underappreciated asset in the sense that their, their Hertz fleet is now worth $1.2 billion more. And I'm like, "This is the ultimate interpretive dance." Because one, uh, that's like saying, "My liver and my lungs are more valuable than, than they are to me." Well, I'm sort of fond of them. Like, how are you gonna harvest ... Unless Hertz announces it's selling its auto fleet, which they're not going to, and also they-

   7. KSKara Swisher53:06

      Well, they sell some of it. They do s- they do have a division that sells cars.

   8. SGScott Galloway53:09

      Yeah, but they have a division that buys cars.

   9. KSKara Swisher53:11

      I ... Yes, that's correct.

   10. SGScott Galloway53:12

       So, (laughs) so it should be a net neutral, right? Actually, a net negative, bec- because new cars will be more, th- those costs will be more than the increase in the value of the used cars you sell. And then the countervailing force of this what I'll call gymnastics and interpretive dance to try and turn chicken shit into chicken salad is that the majority of auto, the automobile rental market is based on tourism. And tourism is absolutely crashing. And let's just talk about reality here. As we're trying to boost the manufacturing sector that employs 11 million people, has anyone noticed while we were sleeping that tourism is fucking crashing, and also employs 12 million people? So, all of this interpretive dance around these sycophants trying to either pump a stock they have an activist i- uh, position in, or trying to claim that this guy's playing 4D chess, just can't look at data.

   11. KSKara Swisher54:06

       Right.

   12. SGScott Galloway54:07

       And, uh, and also, (laughs) back to Trump. He's been very emotional-

   13. KSKara Swisher54:11

       I like that you turned on Bill Ackman the way I had. But go ahead.

   14. SGScott Galloway54:14

       He's been, well, taught (music plays) ... I mean, it's like ... I, I-

   15. KSKara Swisher54:15

       What happened to this person?

   16. SGScott Galloway54:16

       ... would describe the day he announced that as remember when you'd go to interpretive dance or you look at modern art, and you're like, "Oh, you don't want, you wanna be cool, and then you wanna say, 'Oh, it's beautiful.'" And then you look at the next person, you're like, "This makes no fucking sense."

   17. KSKara Swisher54:26

       Yeah. Yeah.

   18. SGScott Galloway54:26

       I mean, this is ... His announcement that they have this undervalued asset is really modern art/interpretative dance.

   19. KSKara Swisher54:32

       Also, may I note, they have a lot of Teslas that nobody wants to rent. They did this whole ... Remember? They have-

   20. SGScott Galloway54:37

       But see, uh-

   21. KSKara Swisher54:37

       They have tons of Teslas they can't move.

   22. SGScott Galloway54:39

       When's the last time you rent- ... It's a shitty business (laughs) in structural decline that is highly levered.

   23. KSKara Swisher54:41

       (laughs) Agreed, but I'm just saying they did that whack deal. Every time they try to give me one, I'm like, "No. I shall not." And apparently nobody wants to r- rent a Tesla. Fuck them.

   24. SGScott Galloway54:49

       Anyways, it speaks to his brand, to Bill Ackman's brand, that he puts out a tweet of an insane thesis that makes no sense-

   25. KSKara Swisher54:56

       Oh, he's such a thirsty piece of shit. (laughs)

   26. SGScott Galloway54:56

       ... if you actually look at the data.

   27. KSKara Swisher54:58

       So thirsty. So thirsty.

   28. SGScott Galloway54:58

       Well, the stock doubled. You gotta give it to him. The guy's brand, uh, clear means-

   29. KSKara Swisher55:01

       Well, whatever. I don't know.

   30. SGScott Galloway55:01

       ... clearly still means something in the market.
9. 1:01:32 – 1:07:50

   Predictions

   1. KSKara Swisher1:01:32

      Okay, Scott, let's hear our predictions. You've kind of let loose a few during the show here, but...

   2. SGScott Galloway1:01:36

      Well-

   3. KSKara Swisher1:01:37

      Pick one.

   4. SGScott Galloway1:01:37

      ... um-

   5. KSKara Swisher1:01:37

      Some good ones, I would-

   6. SGScott Galloway1:01:38

      This is, this is always dangerous, but I'm gonna do it anyways. Uh, Alphabet's reporting, we're talking about Thursday, Alphabet's reporting at the end of the day, and I think rumors of Alphabet's struggles have been greatly exaggerated. I still think while ChatGPT is ascending dramatically and presents, does present an existential threat to search, YouTube is just an absolute juggernaut. And w- you talk about Waymo, I just think this company is so well run, and Google continues to be the largest tollbooth in the history of mankind. I think that they are going to beat and, and I, I think they're gonna have, I think they're gonna beat expectations this afternoon, 'cause I think some of those expectations have been beaten down. And then I, another one, I think in the next 12 to 24 months, we're gonna see a, a spin prophylactically on Big Tech for the first time, and then I'd love-

   7. KSKara Swisher1:02:26

      All right, pick one, pick one. I'm gonna pick, uh, we'll each pick one.

   8. SGScott Galloway1:02:29

      Uh...

   9. KSKara Swisher1:02:30

      I say YouTube. Well, maybe the advertising stuff.

   10. SGScott Galloway1:02:32

       I think it's the ad business-

   11. KSKara Swisher1:02:33

       Ad business, you're right. Uh-

   12. SGScott Galloway1:02:34

       ... for, for YouTube. I'm sorry-

   13. KSKara Swisher1:02:35

       We-

   14. SGScott Galloway1:02:35

       ... ad business for Alphabet. And-

   15. KSKara Swisher1:02:36

       We would like YouTube, but it's probably the ad business.

   16. SGScott Galloway1:02:39

       And then the most interesting one, and this is, I'm putting words in your mouth or taking your words, and I will credit you, Tesla right now has, um, I think it's, like, a $750 billion market cap, right? And when you think about if you, when you're, essentially, when you're doing acquisitions or mergers, you wanna do them when your stock, it's, uh, god, it's 806 billion. You wanna do mergers when you have a really strong valuation because you end up... Uh, Steve Case sold AOL when he knew-

   17. KSKara Swisher1:03:13

       Mm-hmm.

   18. SGScott Galloway1:03:13

       ... there was no way it was gonna be worth a fraction of that-

   19. KSKara Swisher1:03:15

       Yeah.

   20. SGScott Galloway1:03:15

       ... in a matter of months or years.

   21. KSKara Swisher1:03:16

       It's crazy town. Yeah.

   22. SGScott Galloway1:03:17

       So that's when you sell your company. The problem is no one will buy Tesla for $805 billion, except xAI, right? Or SpaceX.

   23. KSKara Swisher1:03:29

       And Splash. Yeah.

   24. SGScott Galloway1:03:29

       And so your idea is so interesting because what he could try to do is say, "Okay, I, I, I have... Jazz hands will only last so long." At some point people's heart, you know, saying, "Okay, enough is enough here, folks." That $800 billion market cap is gonna come way down. So the idea of taking a large revenue base, which you get from an automobile company, putting on top of it the impression-

   25. KSKara Swisher1:03:52

       The AI boom.

   26. SGScott Galloway1:03:52

       ... and evaluation of AI, with the data set of x, and also maybe some of the growth and, and rizz, and c- uh, unbelievable coolness of SpaceX, which would, that would be a lot, maybe he keeps that independent. But I think your idea is really insightful, that the way to maintain that ridiculous $800 billion valuation is to cash it in now-

   27. KSKara Swisher1:04:14

       Now.

   28. SGScott Galloway1:04:14

       ... and he'll have maintained a huge stake, and potentially-

   29. KSKara Swisher1:04:19

       He has to. See?

   30. SGScott Galloway1:04:19

       ... do kind of one, one that's going to 0.5 plus one, plus one equals four or five. I think you're right.

Episode duration: 1:12:53