What's Behind Trump's Epstein Files Reversal? | Pivot

Kara Swisher 0:00 It's sort of like the mobsters that turn on the top mobster at some point. You know, they always end up turning, all those people. (instrumental music) Hi, everyone. This is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Kara Swisher.

Scott Galloway 0:19 And it is 5:14 AM here at the Beverly Hills Hotel in Los Angeles.

Kara Swisher 0:25 Oh.

Scott Galloway 0:25 And I had on my calendar-

Kara Swisher 0:26 Oh.

Scott Galloway 0:26 ... that it was supposed to be, we were supposed to be doing this at 7:00 AM, so.

Kara Swisher 0:29 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 0:30 If I'm even a little, even a little slower than usual, you'll have to forgive me.

Kara Swisher 0:34 No, I think you had a nice relaxing weekend after our... Do you miss me? First of all. That's the key question.

Scott Galloway 0:39 Uh, I don't miss you-

Kara Swisher 0:40 We were together.

Scott Galloway 0:40 ... but I'm not sick of you. I- I-

Kara Swisher 0:42 Yeah. Isn't that weird?

Scott Galloway 0:42 After being together for seven nights-

Kara Swisher 0:44 Wee.

Scott Galloway 0:44 ... and seven cities, I thought, I thought it was pretty, pretty seamless, pretty good.

Kara Swisher 0:47 I know, wasn't it?

Scott Galloway 0:48 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 0:48 I had- We had a good time. W- I had a good time.

Scott Galloway 0:51 What were your favorite parts?

Kara Swisher 0:53 Oh, wow. The- all of it. I have to say, everyone's like, "What's your favorite city?" I'm like, "I kinda liked all of them."

Scott Galloway 0:58 Hmm.

Kara Swisher 0:58 I didn't dis- I thought everyone was interesting that we had on stage. I don't think there was a dud amongst. Um, I thought they were, the crowds, uh, the fa- you know what my favorite part? The audiences.

Scott Galloway 1:09 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 1:09 I gotta say-

Scott Galloway 1:10 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 1:10 ... they were so enthusiastic. Anyway, we've got a lot to get to today, including Jeff Bezos's new AI startup and Peter Thiel's NVIDIA sell-off. This is real- a lot of people selling off. But first, President Trump is urging House Republicans to back the measure to release the Epstein files because, quote, "We have nothing to hide." The House is set to vote on it today.

Kara Swisher 1:29 Trump also continues to call congressman, um, Congresswoman, uh, Marjorie Taylor Greene a traitor. He announced late last week he was cutting ties with Greene, referring to her as a ranting lunatic. Greene says she's been contacted by multiple private security firms after receiving a hotbed of threats. She told CNN that she supports Trump and his administration but is not backing away from the Epstein files. Let's listen.

Narrator 1:50 Uh, I believe the country deserves transparency in these files. And I- I don't believe that, that rich, powerful people should be protected if they have, if they have done anything wrong. And, and so I'm standing with the women, and I will continue to do my small part to get the files released.

Kara Swisher 2:11 She also noted that she was sorry, uh, and it was- seemed sincere, uh, for being such a toxic force in political discourse, which was, uh, it was a, it was a flat-out apology, and it- well, well done. And I know a lot of people are like, "Let's not forgive her," but I feel like you, if you can't forgive the people who were saying they s- or sorry, uh, I don't know what you do. Um, Epstein survivors released a powerful PSA on Sunday holding up a picture of their younger selves-

Scott Galloway 2:37 Yeah, that's powerful.

Kara Swisher 2:37 ... from when they met Epstein. Very upsetting.

Scott Galloway 2:40 It's time to bring the secrets out of the shadows. It's time to shine a light into the darkness. (instrumental music)

Kara Swisher 2:55 They're encouraging House Republicans to vote to release the files, which it looks like it was gonna do. I think Trump, um, uh, did, did that because he knew he wasn't gonna win and then he could make an excuse. Either two things are going online, which is that he scrubbed the files, or two, that he's gonna say there's an investigation of Democrats going on in the files. So, um, so that they can't release them. In any case, he didn't wanna l- lose so explicitly. Also, the latest Epstein distraction. The Amelia Earhart records were just released. As actor Christopher Meloni put it, "Unless she went missing while on a flight to Epstein's island, no one gives a shit." I love that guy. So any thoughts on this? This is a really interesting and continually developing story.

Scott Galloway 3:40 I just don't have a feel- I just don't- what I've never understood is why we think, unless the files are s- part of some process where Trump appointees don't have access to them, I've always thought these things are gonna be altered. I don't-

Kara Swisher 3:54 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 3:54 This is a corrupt organi- you know, uh, his personal lawyer is head of the DOJ, and an individual who's a sycophant and a total incompetent and just an acolyte-

Kara Swisher 4:05 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 4:05 ... is the head of the FBI. These people, at the end of the day, have, uh, ownership. I guess it's, is it because- why would we believe that these things won't be altered when they-

Kara Swisher 4:18 Well, 'cause that's a real, I mean-

Scott Galloway 4:20 A, a real crime.

Kara Swisher 4:20 ... think of, they have to at some point ... I, I think they have to be thinking their own skins in the very end. They're not gonna do anything for this guy. And it's sort of like the mobsters that turn on the top mobster at some point. You know, they always end up turning, all those people, if you've ever noticed.

Scott Galloway 4:36 Yeah. I don't- I- I- I just wouldn't put it past them. I think the crime here has been-

Kara Swisher 4:40 No, neither would I.

Scott Galloway 4:41 ... so brazen. Um, I- I- what- you know what? I'm ... There was a couple times on Bill Maher where I thought for the first time in my life on this show-

Kara Swisher 4:51 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 4:52 ... you know, everything does not demand my judgment, and I-

Kara Swisher 4:56 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 4:56 ... had a couple, a co- a couple topics like on the penny and daylight savings time, I thought-

Kara Swisher 5:00 Yeah, you didn't. I liked that. But-

Scott Galloway 5:01 ... "I have no few and no reason to speak now."

Kara Swisher 5:03 Me- me neither one.

Scott Galloway 5:04 I feel like I'm l- I'm watching this, but I don't have a view on it all. The only thing I'll say is that, you know, Marjorie Taylor Greene-

Kara Swisher 5:12 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 5:12 ... is sort of what happens when CrossFit and a Facebook comment section have a baby, and then-

Kara Swisher 5:17 Ugh.

Scott Galloway 5:17 ... raise it on Monster Energy Drink.

Kara Swisher 5:19 Which she has said.

Scott Galloway 5:20 And m- and resentment.

Kara Swisher 5:22 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 5:23 Um, I- I don't know how to feel about her. It's weird. Uh-

Kara Swisher 5:25 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 5:26 You- you've always said, and I- I absolutely believe this, we have to embrace imperfect allies. And-

Kara Swisher 5:30 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 5:31 MTG is acting-

Kara Swisher 5:32 It's hard here.

Scott Galloway 5:32 ... I m- you know, someone asked us, the joke is, and you said this, "Who's the leader of the Democratic Party?" And it's Marjorie Taylor Greene right now.

Kara Swisher 5:37 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 5:38 And everybody loves a turncoat because it's good for your own advantage.

Kara Swisher 5:42 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 5:42 But, uh, something has happened where she has seen polling data and someone in her campaign has said, "We are gonna do the mother of all pivots here because there's a huge opportunity." Um-

Kara Swisher 5:55 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 5:55 And, uh, I feel like she's cri- she's a real canary in the coal mine for, or a kindred for-... the Trump campaign because-

Kara Swisher 6:02 Yeah. Yeah.

Scott Galloway 6:03 ... she strikes me as being politically pretty savvy.

Kara Swisher 6:06 Very much so.

Scott Galloway 6:06 And she's done some polling in her own district and found out that this positioning of turning on Trump for the first time makes sense politically.

Kara Swisher 6:17 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 6:17 So to me, it's, it's um, it's just got-

Kara Swisher 6:20 Can I ask you?

Scott Galloway 6:20 Go ahead.

Kara Swisher 6:21 From a branding perspective? Because again, a lot of people are like, "I don't believe her." And I, my joke I was doing on the tour was, she's been visited by three ghosts recently. Like, the, the, the whole Scrooge pivot essentially, uh, in this overnight conversion. Um, I don't know how long it's been going on, and I would love some reporting from people actually close to her.

Scott Galloway 6:40 Mm-hmm.

Kara Swisher 6:41 Um, if they could, if reporters could get to those people of what happened here, um, because she is, uh, it's unbelievable actually. Even though I have to tell you, she's incredibly persuasive in her, "I was, I was a," you know, she, she makes it very, "I was a QAnon conspiracy, uh, victim," essentially, which I have seen it from, you know, I've seen it with my mom. I've seen it with lots of people, friends of mine who have suddenly gone crazy essentially, and, and nobody's come back. That's the thing. But you think about those people who were KKK and then they teach people not to do violence, or you, you, uh, the, uh, remember the IRA people?

Scott Galloway 7:21 Mm-hmm.

Kara Swisher 7:21 They were having all these non-violent... And at some point you've gotta go... And they were extraordinarily violent people, these skinheads that then teach kids to not do that. At some point, you have to believe them, I guess. Um, but talk about the brand thing, because you do have a sneaking suspicion it's a trick. And of course, AOC said it was because of the Senate race, which I'm like, "Okay. That, that might... Okay." Like, I'm, I'm not offended by that necessarily. They, they treated her like shit 'cause she's a woman, right? Because they were like, "We're not letting you in," and she had to change her brand 'cause it wasn't working for her. But people do that every day, you know, whether they're in marriages or, you know, you gotta change, or you, you, you lose, or you don't lose, or you... I don't know, 'cause she's v- people are very mean about her turnabout. They did that same thing with George Conway or Liz Cheney or anyone else in, on the right.

Scott Galloway 8:10 Yeah, but the, the, so, but, but George and Liz, it really wasn't a brand re- uh, quite frankly, so-

Kara Swisher 8:14 Well, Liz, it was.

Scott Galloway 8:15 So let me back up. The, the, the, the quote unquote brand positioning I would argue Marjorie Taylor Greene has gone for is, "I wanna come across like one of those women, or the type of woman who will return a rotisserie chicken to Costco after I've eaten half of it."

Kara Swisher 8:26 (laughs)

Scott Galloway 8:26 She just has fucking crazy weird energy.

Kara Swisher 8:29 (laughs)

Scott Galloway 8:29 And, uh, it's that time, it's like 5:30 here. Anyway.

Kara Swisher 8:34 Did you do that? Did you do that once?

Scott Galloway 8:36 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 8:36 No.

Scott Galloway 8:36 Well, I've heard that before.

Kara Swisher 8:38 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 8:38 Um...

Kara Swisher 8:38 I've, I've never heard of that, but I like it.

Scott Galloway 8:39 But where she's just so fucking crazy, you're like, "Yeah, take it back. Just give her, her money back." (laughs)

Kara Swisher 8:44 Yeah. Right, exactly. (laughs)

Scott Galloway 8:45 Um, but I would argue, okay, so first off, from a branding standpoint-

Kara Swisher 8:51 Uh-huh.

Scott Galloway 8:51 ... people appreciate what she's doing is actually poor branding because, and I'm not saying it's not good for the country, and I'm not saying it's not the right thing to do. It might end up being-

Kara Swisher 9:00 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 9:00 ... very strategic. But the reality is, people appreciate someone who is consistent even if they don't agree with the values they're showing consistency on. So, uh, uh, quite frankly, J- John Kerry r- ran... Everyone gives Vice President Harris a ton of shit. Um, Senator Kerry or Secretary Kerry ran a pretty poor campaign, and that is, he came across as just... The, the ad that just absolutely devastated him was a, um, video footage of him-

Kara Swisher 9:25 Swift boat.

Scott Galloway 9:26 ... windsurfing in Nantucket Harbor.

Kara Swisher 9:29 Oh, yeah.

Scott Galloway 9:29 And it just said, "He was against the Iraq War before he was for it, before he was against it."

Kara Swisher 9:34 Right.

Scott Galloway 9:34 And it ended with this-

Kara Swisher 9:35 Right.

Scott Galloway 9:35 ... devastating line and a picture of him on his, his kite board saying, uh, you know, "John Kerry, where- whichever way the winds, the wind blows."

Kara Swisher 9:43 Yeah. Oh yeah, I remember that.

Scott Galloway 9:44 And so people, like for example, George W. Bush, incredibly unpopular war in Iraq, probably first ballot Hall of Fame-

Kara Swisher 9:52 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 9:52 ... geopolitical catastrophic mistake. But because he never wavered, people respect that. And so from a brand standpoint, p- the, people would rather you be just fucking crazy and stay that way, or crazy, cla- crazy liberal 'cause those are the people who've been drawn to you. And, but whereas I think Liz Cheney and George Conway stayed true to, quite frankly, GOP traditional principles. I don't think they really-

Kara Swisher 10:16 I see. Yeah.

Scott Galloway 10:16 ... flip-flopped. I think they're very-

Kara Swisher 10:18 Right. Yeah.

Scott Galloway 10:18 ... traditional GO-

Kara Swisher 10:19 They did unnatural things for Trump and then stopped, right?

Scott Galloway 10:22 (laughs)

Kara Swisher 10:22 And went back to their normal shape essentially.

Scott Galloway 10:24 Yeah, but they, they did kind of di- uh, my opinion on Cheney and-

Kara Swisher 10:29 Well, they were pretty obsequious to Trump for a while.

Scott Galloway 10:30 ... Conway is that they're, they're the old GOPers that basically MAGA has cast from the po- cast out from the party.

Kara Swisher 10:36 Right. Absolutely. Yeah.

Scott Galloway 10:37 Yeah. But-

Kara Swisher 10:38 But she was at the heart of it. She was at the heart of it.

Scott Galloway 10:40 But her brand, it'll be very interesting to see what happens. And what, what'll be super interesting is if, if she's reelected, he's basically aimed her guns at ev- whenever he's aimed his guns at anyone, it has been a direct hit. It has been shocking-

Kara Swisher 10:53 Right.

Scott Galloway 10:53 ... how, with the-

Kara Swisher 10:54 Well, no, Thomas Massie won despite a direct... He, he had tried to get Thomas Massie out the last time. Didn't work.

Scott Galloway 11:00 Yeah, but my sense is I think MTG would be an entirely different ballgame 'cause I-

Kara Swisher 11:06 Oh.

Scott Galloway 11:06 Do you know how much her district went for Trump? There's been s- there's, there's been some pr-

Kara Swisher 11:09 A lot, except that the head of the Republican Party in the district is backing her, not Trump.

Scott Galloway 11:14 Yeah. That will be, if, I feel like she's-

Kara Swisher 11:17 That's interesting.

Scott Galloway 11:18 I feel like sh- she's your finger being pulled out of a dyke. (laughs)

Kara Swisher 11:22 (laughs) Yeah.

Scott Galloway 11:22 Uh, so to speak.

Kara Swisher 11:23 She's gonna become a lesbian in-

Scott Galloway 11:25 Of the dyke.

Kara Swisher 11:25 ... San Francisco soon, but go ahead. She could fit. She-

Scott Galloway 11:28 Yeah. Yeah, I'm not gonna comment on that. So-

Kara Swisher 11:30 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 11:31 But she, uh, by the way, Debbie Brubaker, my girlfriend-

Kara Swisher 11:35 Lesbian.

Scott Galloway 11:35 Uh, as you said, or as she said, first thing she said was, "Bats for the other team," so to speak.

Kara Swisher 11:41 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 11:42 Um, that's happening a lot to me, Kara. (laughs)

Kara Swisher 11:44 I know that.

Scott Galloway 11:45 Anyway.

Kara Swisher 11:46 It's true.

Scott Galloway 11:46 Uh, but-

Kara Swisher 11:46 You know what I'm gonna do for you? I'm gonna go straight. Anyway, sorry, sorry.

Scott Galloway 11:49 (laughs) Uh, so at this point, I think that, that ship has sailed, Kara. (laughs)

Kara Swisher 11:54 I think it has.

Scott Galloway 11:54 I think that ship has sailed. No-

Kara Swisher 11:56 Funny.

Scott Galloway 11:56 ... but MTG, I think she's actually a seminal figure in the political landscape because if she gets-

Kara Swisher 12:01 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 12:01 ... reelected and shows that she can, um, basically stick up the middle finger to-... President Trump, and he's now two years into his lame duck presidency, and you said something-

Kara Swisher 12:10 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 12:10 ... on the tour that really sort of struck me was that you thi- you don't think he's gonna finish out his presidency.

Kara Swisher 12:14 I don't. I really don't now, actually. I really don't. This past week, uh, this shift on the Epstein files, whether they scrub them or not, he's in a weak position. And I think they sense it. And by the way, I think there are videos. I think, I think there are photos, and I think they're not good. And that's what's missing here, is-

Scott Galloway 12:32 He's scared of something.

Kara Swisher 12:34 ... his, his position.

Scott Galloway 12:34 It's something.

Kara Swisher 12:34 He's scar- You know, they, they made fun of it actually. They were repeating a lot of stuff you said, is, you know, "If, if I was innocent, wouldn't I release the things?" And, and the, it was the opener for SNL. Um, and it was really quite like saying what you were saying, is he looks so guilty, the way he's behaving. And Amelia Earhart, I'm like, I'm happy she released that, although we still don't know where she went. But, um, you know, we're gonna have to live with that unfortunate accident. Um, but uh, he's, he's gonna try to do distraction after distraction. But at some point, you do run out of steam of these distractions. I feel like you can't... Unless he, like he attacks a country, that's another, Venezuela. Um, but I think he's in a deeply weak position, and I think Greene is just an example of that. Um, it'll be interesting if she keeps this up, 'cause she can't quite let go of him, 'cause that's a bridge too far, but she's like him of another time, not this one, not this Trump. And I think that's what's powerful, because everyone I talk to in the Trump universe who is supportive of him that is shifting is like, "I liked him, but not this stuff, not the w- not the East Wing, not the way they're doing ICE, not all these kind of ridi- Like, not, but not this the guy," essentially. So they like the idea of Trump, not the, what's happened to him, which is clearly a decline in cognitive and, and-

Scott Galloway 13:53 See, I don't, I don't-

Kara Swisher 13:54 ... sort of corruption.

Scott Galloway 13:55 I don't think it's, I don't think it's, I don't see the cognitive decline. Occasionally, he does look like-

Kara Swisher 13:59 Oh, I do.

Scott Galloway 13:59 ... an old man falling asleep, but I don't see-

Kara Swisher 14:01 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 14:01 ... the quote-unquote "cognitive decline." I think he actually presents as still remarkably robust, but-

Kara Swisher 14:06 Well, I'll... I was in my mom's- My mom's in a senior facility, and there's a guy there, there's always a guy there that's really robust and really losing it, but also very energetically loud. And, um, but is dement- has dementia. Like, I'm just telling you, it can be very... I had a friend whose mother had dementia, and her grandmother? Grandmother had dementia. And she used to get up from the beach and start swimming and kept going. She was in great shape. She was very lively, and they had to go get her, 'cause she was so fit and so, like, full of beans, but dement- had dementia. So, I don't know. We'll see.

Scott Galloway 14:40 I don't know.

Kara Swisher 14:40 I think he-

Scott Galloway 14:41 I, I'm gonna-

Kara Swisher 14:41 I think he has the early stages.

Scott Galloway 14:41 I'm gonna impersonate Marjorie Taylor Greene, and if my-

Kara Swisher 14:44 Okay.

Scott Galloway 14:44 ... room service is late, I'm gonna blame the deep state.

Kara Swisher 14:46 Okay, good. Okay.

Kara Swisher 14:48 All right. Speaking of what Congress is up to, House Republicans are reportedly circulating a bill modeled on Trump's idea to lower healthcare costs, redirecting insurance subsidies directly to people's HSA accounts. They would be for Obamacare enrollees. Mark Cuban called this "really dumb," noting that when you send money to people's HSAs, there's no guaranteeing the money will be spent on healthcare costs.

Scott Galloway 15:07 Mm-hmm.

Kara Swisher 15:07 When they're used by insurance companies, they have to spend 85% on those costs.

Scott Galloway 15:11 That's right.

Kara Swisher 15:12 Um, everyone thinks this is, like, ridiculous and again, another bad move by Trump, I think. And, uh, he seems to be missing... He's usually politically so savvy, and this is just a dumb idea. So...

Scott Galloway 15:24 Yeah, look, uh, uh, I think it's time. The- If you were, if you were just to look at our deficit, it's $2 trillion a year. If you look-

Kara Swisher 15:31 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 15:31 ... at what we spend on healthcare, 13,000 per capita per year versus 6,500 for the-

Kara Swisher 15:35 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 15:35 ... other six members of the G7-

Kara Swisher 15:37 Striking stat you used.

Scott Galloway 15:38 If we were able to actually leverage our scale and our innovation to provide healthcare at the same price as every other nation, that's literally the, the annual deficit.

Kara Swisher 15:47 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 15:47 That would be a $2 trillion savings.

Kara Swisher 15:49 Golden ticket.

Scott Galloway 15:49 You can't-

Kara Swisher 15:50 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 15:51 We're, we're gonna have a very difficult time ever getting serious about a deficit as long as we continue the regulatory capture. And I don't think there's-

Kara Swisher 15:57 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 15:57 ... of healthcare. I don't think there's a- I, I literally don't think there's a way to fix or enhance or-

Kara Swisher 16:03 Your idea. Repeat your idea you repeated on stage several times. What- Explain your Medicare.

Scott Galloway 16:07 Well, if you look at healthcare in the United States, four out of five people are dissatisfied with it, and they spend-

Kara Swisher 16:12 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 16:12 ... $13,000 a year on it. And that's just-

Kara Swisher 16:15 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 16:15 There's no product in the world that is this expensive that has an 80% disapproval rate. And then you combine that with regulatory capture, where we'd monetize health. Healthcare isn't about health. It's about shareholder value, unfortunately. And we've ended up with the most capitalist healthcare system in the sense that if you're in the top 10% in the United States, it's the best healthcare in the world. The person who- That person in the top 1% lives 12 years longer than the person in the bottom 1%. We've monetized it. It's actually, for you and me, it's the best he- best healthcare system in the world. For everyone else, not so much.

Kara Swisher 16:46 It's still frustrating. It's still frustrating.

Scott Galloway 16:48 So I think this has to be like, really rip the Band-Aid off, and uh-

Kara Swisher 16:52 Yeah, I'd agree.

Scott Galloway 16:52 What I think, at the same time, Medicare, which is what, uh, seniors are eligible for, actually delivers pretty efficiently, and people are generally pretty happy with it. So my idea is to lower health- uh, Medicare eligibility by two years a year, uh, and then in ten years, where are you? You're at 45, uh, on up, is eligible for Medicare.

Kara Swisher 17:15 Perfect.

Scott Galloway 17:15 And that's 70-plus percent of healthcare costs because they happen-

Kara Swisher 17:18 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 17:18 ... later in your life.

Kara Swisher 17:20 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 17:20 And I think you just keep going until effectively you have socialized or national, um, nationalized m- medical coverage. It's time.

Kara Swisher 17:27 And-

Scott Galloway 17:27 It's just not worth it for us.

Kara Swisher 17:28 And everyone under could have a very inexpensive, uh, under 45.

Scott Galloway 17:31 They don't even need health insurance. (laughs)

Kara Swisher 17:33 I know they don't, but just to If something happens, right? They need, there's always-

Scott Galloway 17:36 Yeah, I'm trying to figure out-

Kara Swisher 17:38 ... like this small possibility.

Scott Galloway 17:38 I'm trying to figure out an elegant way that gives the private sector time to respond 'cause there are-

Kara Swisher 17:43 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 17:43 ... millions of jobs that are dependent upon this regulatory capture.

Kara Swisher 17:46 Yeah. Yeah.

Scott Galloway 17:47 And you wanna give them time to adjust, but quite frank- we have to move to an entirely different system. We have to move-

Kara Swisher 17:51 Absolutely.

Scott Galloway 17:52 In the UK or- You know, the NHS, granted, it- people have their issues with it, but generally, you get good healthcare for free. And it's the responsibility of the entire nation.

Kara Swisher 18:02 I was just in Korea. They, they're, they're perplexed by our health. They're like, "Why are you gonna have such a bad healthcare?"

Scott Galloway 18:05 They can't, absolutely can't get- They can't get over a nation that's the most prosperous nation in the world where when your wife is diagnosed with lung cancer, it also means you're going bankrupt. 40% of-

Kara Swisher 18:13 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 18:13 ... American households have medical-

Kara Swisher 18:16 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 18:16 ... or dental debt.

Kara Swisher 18:16 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 18:16 This is- It's a huge... You know, happiness, we were talking a lot about it, there's six of the 10 happiest nations in the world are in Northern Europe. And I think a big component of that-

Kara Swisher 18:24 Healthcare-

Scott Galloway 18:25 Is people think of-

Kara Swisher 18:26 ... and homes.

Scott Galloway 18:26 ... happiness is, is having stuff or the ability to have stuff, which America defines, but actually, a bigger component of happiness is absence from fear that things are gonna be taken from you.

Kara Swisher 18:37 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 18:37 And in the US, there's a real fear that your dignity will be taken from you-

Kara Swisher 18:40 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 18:40 ... and the health of your loved ones-

Kara Swisher 18:42 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 18:42 ... because it's, it's so fucking expensive and people can't afford it.

Kara Swisher 18:45 Healthcare and homes. That's-

Scott Galloway 18:47 100%.

Kara Swisher 18:49 ... healthcare and homes.

Scott Galloway 18:49 And I-

Kara Swisher 18:49 H&H-

Scott Galloway 18:50 I don't-

Kara Swisher 18:50 ... with a bagel.

Scott Galloway 18:50 I think crime, I think crime and immigration are big in terms of perception, but in terms of the-

Kara Swisher 18:54 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 18:54 ... actual qu- e- e- as it relates to actually-

Kara Swisher 18:57 Mental illness, cortisol, stress, health issues.

Scott Galloway 19:01 Well, I'm shocked that some of our friends on the left aren't more aggressive about this.

Kara Swisher 19:04 I agree.

Scott Galloway 19:05 You know, Hillary, uh, Secretary Clinton was right. It's just the world-

Kara Swisher 19:08 Early.

Scott Galloway 19:08 ... wasn't ready for it in '92 or whenever it was.

Kara Swisher 19:11 Not from her.

Scott Galloway 19:11 The, the, the nation is ready for it. The nation-

Kara Swisher 19:13 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 19:13 ... has had a... And then the age-

Kara Swisher 19:15 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 19:15 ... and it's the system in the UK, the top, I forget if it's five or 10%, go private.

Kara Swisher 19:21 Yeah, they effect-

Scott Galloway 19:21 And people say, "Well, that's, that's the aristocracy." And I'm like, "No, it's not." Rich people are always going to have better service-

Kara Swisher 19:27 They will.

Scott Galloway 19:27 ... and better access. Get used to it, folks.

Kara Swisher 19:29 Yep, right.

Scott Galloway 19:29 Their kids are gonna have an easier time getting into college. They're gonna have better doctors.

Kara Swisher 19:32 Did you see that Journal story about them?

Scott Galloway 19:33 Pardon?

Kara Swisher 19:33 Did you see that Journal sto- there was a Journal story about rich, really the ultra rich, um, never see people. Like, they go from one... It's a... I'll send it to you.

Scott Galloway 19:41 Well, th- that- that's part of the problem, and that is the top, the most powerful people by far in the top 1%, and they're no longer invested in the basics of American life. They have their own schools. They have their own police force and security now. They have their-

Kara Swisher 19:55 Their own planes.

Scott Galloway 19:55 ... own healthcare. They have their own transportation. They have their own planes.

Kara Swisher 19:59 Right.

Scott Galloway 19:59 So when America infrastructure is crumbling and when the average American has a difficult-

Kara Swisher 20:03 They have fewer.

Scott Galloway 20:03 ... time getting good education or feels unsafe, these people don't feel, don't, don't empa- have no empathy because they're, they're, they've totally extricated themselves from the American experience.

Kara Swisher 20:13 Yeah. This story, I had recommended in The Wall Street Journal. We have to move on, but one of the things, that when Lu- Luigi Mangione happened, I was like, "Okay, here we are. This is more... And this is gonna happen over time." People are furious about this thing, and they don't need to be, right? It's so fixable for our country, and it saves money.

Scott Galloway 20:29 Well, well-

Kara Swisher 20:30 Anyway, go ahead. Go ahead.

Scott Galloway 20:31 Just before we move on, two things. I actually believe if people had any idea how the 1% live, really live in terms of access, I think there'd be-

Kara Swisher 20:38 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 20:38 ... a revolution right now.

Kara Swisher 20:39 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 20:40 I think the difference between-

Kara Swisher 20:41 Yeah. Well, it was described rather detailed in the Wall Street Journal.

Scott Galloway 20:44 In The Wall Street Journal. The difference between a middle class person and an upper income person when I was growing up was they got to fly-

Kara Swisher 20:48 Got more.

Scott Galloway 20:48 ... business class, and they had, they had-

Kara Swisher 20:50 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 20:50 ... a Cadillac, not a Gran Torino. But you lived largely the same life. Now it's a different fucking universe. It is just a different-

Kara Swisher 20:56 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 20:56 ... universe. And also, just going back to the UK healthcare, care system, the people who go private 'cause they have no money for it, it actually kind of works 'cause they basically take pressure off the system 'cause they're not, they're not in the system. So I, I think, look, it's time for nationalized healthcare. It's time for socialized healthcare in the United States.

Kara Swisher 21:13 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 21:13 It's just not working for us.

Kara Swisher 21:15 Oh, you socialist. Anyway, let's go on a quick break. When we come back, Peter Thiel dumps his stake in NVIDIA. I'm very eager to hear what you say about this. (instrumental music plays) Support for this show comes from Upway. If you're tired of being stuck in traffic or watching gas prices climb higher and higher, you're not alone. There's a better, freer way to move through your day, and it might just change how you feel about commuting. An e-bike from Upway can give you that feeling of freedom. Fresh air, no traffic, no stress. It's not just good for your health, it's better for your wallet, your time, and honestly, your happiness. Upway makes it easy. They offer top brands like Specialized, Cannondale, and Aventon at up to 60% off retail. Every e-bike is thoroughly inspected by a professional mechanic and comes with a one-year warranty so you can ride with peace of mind. You can search by brand or style, book a call with a real human for help, or even stop by their showrooms in New York or LA. So go to upway.co and use code PIVOT150 to get $150 off your first e-bike purchase of $1,000 or more. That's upway.co, code PIVOT150. Go ahead. You won't regret it. (instrumental music plays) Support for this show comes from Mint Mobile. Most holiday gifts unfortunately end up in the drawer in the back of your closet, or maybe they're, quote, "accidentally left" at a cousin's house. Thankfully, this holiday season, you can make sure every holiday gift is something for everyone to enjoy. That's right. Mint Mobile is offering unlimited premium wireless for $15 a month. That's their best deal of the year, also known as the only holiday gift you'll actually use every single day, and one that you literally can't leave at a cousin's house. With Mint Mobile, you can get three, six, or 12 month unlimited plan for $15 a month. All Mint plans come with high-speed data, unlimited talk and text on the nation's largest 5G network. You can also bring your current phone and number over to Mint with no contracts required. So don't get them socks. Get them premium wireless for $15 a month. Shop Mint unlimited plans at mintmobile.com/pivot. That's mintmobile.com/pivot. Limited time offer, upfront payments of $45 for three months, $90 for six months, and $180 for 12 months. Plan required. $15 a month equivalent. Taxes and fees extra. Initial plan term only. Greater than 35 gigabytes may slow when the network is busy. Capable device required. Availability, speed, and coverage varies. See mintmobile.com. (graphics whoosh)

Kara Swisher 23:43 Scott, we're back. Peter Thiel's fund has sold off its entire stake in NVIDIA, elevating AI bubble fears. At the time of this taping early Monday morning, it looks like the markets are in for a muted open after a rocky week of tech stock sell-offs, quite a lot-... while we were away. The Nasdaq Composite ended last week down a half a percentage point, led by dips in Alphabet, Amazon, and Meta, even though Warren Buffett bought into, uh, Alphabet, uh, which, he never buys into tech. Any, uh, talk about this, this move? And, and let me just add this. Speaking of AI bubble fears, some recent reports are shedding more

Kara Swisher 24:15 light on OpenAI's finances. This was jaw-dropping, I thought. Documents obtained by the Wall Street Journal show the company is burning through cash. I mean, it is a forest fire. Operating losses are projected to reach about three-quarters of annual revenues by 2028, mostly due to computing costs, of course, though the company expects to turn a profit by 2030. They say they are. OpenAI spent about 12 ... And they could. Look, this happened with other internet companies. OpenAI spent about $12 billion on inference, essentially computing costs, between 2024 and the third quarter of 2025, according to documents reviewed by tech blogger Ed Zittrain. Uh, the documents also show Microsoft's revenue share payments from OpenAI roughly doubling since last year. OpenAI has said these aren't accurate, I guess. Um, but they are having this ... We'll see when they have their IPO. Uh, Sam Altman recently said OpenAI's revenue is more than $13 billion a year. But these latest numbers don't seem to support that. Um, a- a- any, any thoughts on this stuff? I'm really interested in your take on, on the, the, the Thiel stuff combined with, um ... And of course, uh, s-, uh, uh, what's his name, uh, from Masa Son sold off one NVIDIA in order to get into OpenAI, but go ahead.

Scott Galloway 25:27 Well, I think you'd ... (sighs) I think most people, most market analysts would go, "Listen, this is just some pro- some profit-taking."

Kara Swisher 25:34 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 25:34 NVIDIA's up 38%. Even ... NVIDIA was down 8% last week, but it's up 38% for the year.

Kara Swisher 25:39 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 25:39 Microsoft down 1.3, up 22. META's flat, was down f- f- four and a half percent. It's only up 2% for the year. Amazon is up 7%, but it l- it gave back 8% last. Last week Alphabet was down 3%, but it's up 45%. And Apple-

Kara Swisher 25:54 Nice call. Nice call. (whispers) Nice call, Scott Keller.

Scott Galloway 25:57 Apple's up one, Apple's one point- up 1.2% last week and up 12% for the year. And the companies that, uh ... So Apple and Amazon are supposed to be most immune from the AI trade. They haven't gone all in. Uh, I, I personally, and again, this isn't financial advice, but I'm increasingly convinced that the string that gets pulled on that takes down (laughs) the global economy to recession levels, and it'll be no-, there'll be nowhere to hide, is the following. I think the quote-unquote trillion-dollar-plus commitments or framework that, uh, Sam Altman has made to try and convince everybody, "I know more than you, and this is so fucking huge, I need 60 nuclear power plants and 300 billion in compute from Oracle," I think a lot of that is marketing. And great, if the revenue is doubled at OpenAI, it means its stock is 80% overvalued, because built into that e- valuation of 40 times revenue is that this thing is quadrupling every 12 months, and will quadruple every f- twelve months for four years. And it's not. And the moment they announce ... I, again, I think this trade unwinds the following way. I think a traditional company, a PepsiCo, a Caterpillar, on an earnings call says, "Look, we are excited about AI. We do think it's, it's, it's gonna be a breakthrough, but we are scaling back our investment," and then a bunch of other traditional S&P 500 companies look at each other and make the same announcement, OpenAI has to ... You know, it becomes clear there's no fucking way OpenAI's gonna continue to be able to buy $300 billion, 100 billion in NVIDIA chips.

Kara Swisher 27:25 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 27:25 And the thing that takes the market down, quite frankly, is NVIDIA, because with a $5 trillion market cap, if this thing gets cut in half and there's a two and a half trillion dollar destruction in the market, which will impact the top 10% of households who are now responsible for 50% of consumer spending-

Kara Swisher 27:39 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 27:40 ... that's how the economy, like, literally starts to-

Kara Swisher 27:42 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 27:42 ... throw up and convulse.

Kara Swisher 27:44 Right.

Scott Galloway 27:44 And I think we're getting there. The narrative has gone from AI boom to AI bubble.

Kara Swisher 27:49 Right.

Scott Galloway 27:49 Now everyone ... Have you ... People don't realize 'cause it happens incremental, and you said something that always struck me, that humans adapt.

Kara Swisher 27:55 Hm.

Scott Galloway 27:55 People don't realize how much the narrative has changed around AI in the financial press just in the last 15 days.

Kara Swisher 28:03 Yeah. I would agree.

Scott Galloway 28:03 Everyone's talking about a bubble now.

Kara Swisher 28:03 Bubble ... They write a bubble story. I've read so many bubble stories, it's crazy. Uh, and of course, as you say, sometimes when that's the case, it doesn't happen, right?

Scott Galloway 28:11 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 28:11 It over- it over-indexes on that. I would say the Thiel thing, I don't think it's just profit-taking, although he's l- this guy is, has a, like a f- a tuning fork for money, right? He, he-

Scott Galloway 28:22 He's a very talented investor.

Kara Swisher 28:22 ... whether he co- figures out some weird tax plan that he never pays taxes again or some weird gap gains thing that he does, he's always up to some, like, amazingly ridiculous and greedy thing to do. But you know, that's him. He's a capitalist. He's gonna take advantage of every, uh, you know, nook and cranny of problems. Um, but it was interesting that it, it, it just, um ... They, they see things before people because they're in the middle of it and they can actually see the numbers. And anyone that can see the numbers, you have to pay attention to their moves, and it's not just a profit-taking, right? It's not just that. Um, I, I think, I think probably it's not, like, uh, you sort of feel like, remember Amazon was all, like, gonna be on the amazon.bomb, that kind of stuff, that-

Scott Galloway 29:05 Mm-hmm.

Kara Swisher 29:06 There was that narrative that went on, and then it wasn't. But this is so much bigger, like it's so big and it effects everything. And it was ... And there are already established industries and already established companies. These comp-, other companies, when they coughed, nobody cared. In this case, when they cough, everyone dies, essentially. Um, what's in- ... Here's

Kara Swisher 29:25 an interesting thing. Jeff Bezos is taking a larger role in the AI game. He's created a startup called Project Prometheus. Oh, it's so, oh, it's such a, uh, whatever, you know he's-

Scott Galloway 29:34 So macho, isn't it?

Kara Swisher 29:34 I know, right? (imitates horse neighing) Um, by the way, Prometheus did not have the greatest tail, Jeff, just so you know. Uh, for people who don't know, Prometheus gave, uh, humans fire, um, and he defied the gods for doing this, but as punishment for his actions, Zeus, uh, uh, condemned Prometheus to eternal torment, including, uh, an eagle ate his-... liver daily. So, good luck, Jeff. Um, and he'll be the co-CEO. The company is focusing on AI with real-world applications in aerospace, cars, and other fields. It makes sense. Project Prometheus has already raised $6.2 billion in funding. Um, I'm not sure what ... it's, it's probably making apps, right? I would assume, like, how you, how you would deploy it anywhere. Like, what, how, what's the use of AI? And I think people right now are mostly using it for search of, you know, sort of a, a more robust search or a more robust a- a- analytical thing. And so the question is, what ... w- how do you make it really seamlessly useful throughout, which is what you're talking about. What's the actual ROI on these things? So, I don't know. I don't know if you think of anything like that.

Scott Galloway 30:38 Yeah. Uh, the new, the, the thing that kind of ident- uh, marks the age a little bit is weapons of mass distraction, and that is ...

Kara Swisher 30:44 Right.

Scott Galloway 30:45 I think the-

Kara Swisher 30:46 Oh, yeah.

Scott Galloway 30:46 ... country is being-

Kara Swisher 30:47 Sure.

Scott Galloway 30:47 ... run by ... I think we're bombing fishing boats.

Kara Swisher 30:50 Right.

Scott Galloway 30:50 Which, A, no fentanyl comes out of Venezuela. They don't have any fentanyl production.

Kara Swisher 30:53 Yeah, not in fishing boats, that's for sure.

Scott Galloway 30:55 And then the, and then if these fishing boats were the distribution system or the transportation system for the drug trade, which by the way is not the way you go after the drug trade, the transportation system, they would ha- ... if they were in fact ferrying drugs or fentanyl, of which there's none in Venezuela, it's in Miami, these boats would need to make 20 stops to refuel, which is sort of logistically improbable, if not impossible. I believe we're bombing fishing boats because of a dead pedophile. I, I, the, I think they, every day d- as soon as Epstein creeps back into the news, they try and come up with something.

Kara Swisher 31:29 Yeah, you'll bomb something.

Scott Galloway 31:29 You know, whether it's this health account nonsense or an additional 100%-

Kara Swisher 31:32 Ehrhardt.

Scott Galloway 31:32 ... percent tariff on Lithuania to try and distract them. And then the other person that does this, I mean, the most powerful person in the world and the wealthiest man in the world are literally deploying all of their energy and firepower on distraction right now. And Musk-

Kara Swisher 31:45 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 31:45 ... is like, "Look at anything but the fact I have a car company trading at, you know, a revenue multiple that's never made sense for a car company. Oh, look over here, it's robots. Look over here, it's autonomous. Look over here"-

Kara Swisher 31:57 I would agree.

Scott Galloway 31:58 "... it's AI." Like, jazz hands on fucking meth-

Kara Swisher 32:02 Yeah. Yeah.

Scott Galloway 32:03 ... uh, because it's not ... if he just starts talking about Tesla as a car company and the metrics and what the plan is for this company that wraps steel around a motor, people are gonna wake up and go, "Oh. It's a car company," and take the stock down 80%.

Kara Swisher 32:18 It, it's also ... Can I, can I add something? It's more than that. It's also the idea that they can't shut up. I was just thinking this last night. I'm going on that, uh, the show, Jennifer, you know, those two ladies, I've, I've Had It Ladies? And I had to think of I've Had It. I have had it with them talking. Like, it's ... o- one o- ... when Bill Ackman was giving dating advice, I, you know, I was thinking like, I would call him a cheap-ass discount version of Scott Galloway. It was, first of all, stupid advice for men, young men. I- he's sort of moving into your space. I'd give him a smackeroo, Scott. But he's sort of copying-

Scott Galloway 32:51 Bill Ackman?

Kara Swisher 32:51 Yes. He put out this whole thing about, "Can I meet you?" You go up to a girl at a bar and you say, "Can I meet you?"

Scott Galloway 32:58 "Can I me- ... " You just did. You we- ... "Can I meet you?"

Kara Swisher 33:01 "Can I meet you?" That's his piece of vi- ... he, like, started giving dating advice.

Scott Galloway 33:06 Huh.

Kara Swisher 33:06 I'm like, "Can you just go back to hedge funds and stop commenting on everything?" I bet he saw, like, the Galloways. "Number one, I need to get in on this thing, and it makes me a softer side of Sears kind of look." But yeah. He ha- and he's completely boneheaded.

Scott Galloway 33:19 S- so just to be clear, I don't-

Kara Swisher 33:20 But that's what I mean. Bezos can't shut up. They all can't sh-

Scott Galloway 33:22 I know, but I c- ... uh, m- ... I try and base my dating advice on research.

Kara Swisher 33:26 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 33:27 So, just real briefly, gentlemen, women are attracted to men sexually for three reasons.

Kara Swisher 33:32 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 33:32 The first is signaling resources. So the bad news is-

Kara Swisher 33:35 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 33:35 ... you know, that's a Range Rover

Guest 33:36 ... Yeah.

Scott Galloway 33:37 But you can also signal resources by having a plan and having your act together and demonstrating discipline. It's like signaling not only current but future resources. Second is intellect. What's the fastest way to communicate intellect, Kara?

Kara Swisher 33:49 I don't know. Make a joke?

Scott Galloway 33:50 Be funny. That's right.

Kara Swisher 33:52 Yeah. Good one.

Scott Galloway 33:52 So, I've told you my impersonation of a woman. "I'm laughing, I'm laughing, I'm naked."

Kara Swisher 33:57 (laughs)

Scott Galloway 33:57 And then, and then if you can, if you can make a woman laugh, she'll-

Kara Swisher 34:00 (laughs) I should not laugh at that, but it was fun.

Scott Galloway 34:02 I- if you can make a woman laugh, she'll have co- coffee with her. And then the third thing, and this is the most underleveraged weapon in dating and the advice I have for young men, is kindness. And it's true. Women instinctively believe at some point they'll be vulnerable because of gestation, and they want someone who is a kind man.

Kara Swisher 34:18 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 34:19 And it's-

Kara Swisher 34:19 It must all make sense. "Can I meet you?" does not.

Scott Galloway 34:21 Yeah. So I do- I don't give guys opening lines. I, I-

Kara Swisher 34:25 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 34:25 ... I would start with, "Hey, where are you from?" And, and then-

Kara Swisher 34:28 Oh, okay.

Scott Galloway 34:28 ... you read body language, or ...

Kara Swisher 34:29 What's that old line? Uh, "That's a nice shirt. It'll look great on my floor in the morning."

Scott Galloway 34:34 Well, I, uh, m- my, my big line-

Kara Swisher 34:37 Get hurt when it's hot.

Scott Galloway 34:37 ... is you give 'em the f- ... you give 'em the phone and ask them to take pictures, a picture of you. And o- e- o- e- everyone always says yes and no problem-

Kara Swisher 34:43 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 34:43 ... and they're nice. And then you say, "Now can you turn it around on Periscope mode and take a picture of the two of us?" And she'll go, "Why?" And you say, "'Cause I wanna show it to our kids."

Kara Swisher 34:52 Oh, my God. That's so creepy.

Scott Galloway 34:54 Boom!

Kara Swisher 34:54 That would send me-

Scott Galloway 34:55 Oh, my God.

Kara Swisher 34:56 ... way, way, away.

Scott Galloway 34:57 It's 5:56 in the morning.

Kara Swisher 34:58 I'd be like, "How can I get out of this place with my"-

Scott Galloway 35:00 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 35:00 ... "uh, head intact?" How can he-

Scott Galloway 35:01 No, no one needs to take dating advice from a guy who lost his virginity at 19. Um-

Kara Swisher 35:06 Yeah. Yeah, that's true.

Scott Galloway 35:06 No, but there's, there's basics. I did not know-

Kara Swisher 35:09 19?

Scott Galloway 35:09 ... Bill was get- ... is Bill getting into the young men game? I'm gonna have to call-

Kara Swisher 35:12 Yes, he is. He's getting i- ...

Scott Galloway 35:12 ... Richard Reeves and Jonathan Hyde and elbow them out.

Kara Swisher 35:12 I was like, "What are you doing? Get out of Sco- ..." I was immediately angry.

Scott Galloway 35:16 (laughs)

Kara Swisher 35:16 But it was also stupid, so I thought, "Okay, I'm angry, and yet it's stupid." He's like totally getting into the Scott game. He'll probably call you for lunch, like they all do, like ...Let's have lunch and chat. Let's talk about hedge funds, Bill. You're a hedge fund person. That's the only thing we want to talk to you about. Otherwise-

Scott Galloway 35:32 I don't mind. You know something? I don't mind Bill that much. I think he's like, I don't know.

Kara Swisher 35:35 I think he's become a clown. I think he's a very talented investor.

Scott Galloway 35:37 He's a very good investor.

Kara Swisher 35:38 Very risk-taking, but he needs to stop talking about everything else publicly. He can talk about private lives and interests and whatever. He reminds me, there's a great show, um, on, it's Netflix or Disney+.

Scott Galloway 35:48 Only we can talk about things we're not supposed to talk about.

Kara Swisher 35:50 No, no.

Scott Galloway 35:51 The one you have no domain expertise in.

Kara Swisher 35:52 No, we know a lot about... I do a lot of reporting. No, I, I don't talk about hedge fund investing. I don't know anything if I ask you, you know?

Scott Galloway 35:57 We just talked about the market.

Kara Swisher 35:58 Yes, but you talked about it.

Scott Galloway 36:00 I did.

Kara Swisher 36:00 I didn't, 'cause I don't know anything about it 'cause you know something about it, 'cause you've been investing since 13, e- with PSY apparently.

Scott Galloway 36:07 That's right.

Kara Swisher 36:07 So, um, but there's a, there's a show called The Beast in Me, and then we're gonna move on. Um, and it's with, um, Matthew Rice and Claire Danes, and it's about this billionaire who lives next door to this Pulitzer Prize winning lesbian writer. It's kind of echoes. Um, and he's such an irritating person, and literally they have a lunch that I have had with a dozen different tech people, rich people, and it was so like, he's so irritating in this show. He also might be a killer. Um, but it's, uh ... Anyway, just r- he's so irritating. So stop getting into Scott. I was defending you, Scott.

Scott Galloway 36:40 (laughs) I love that.

Kara Swisher 36:40 I was like, "Get out of Scott."

Scott Galloway 36:41 I love how you're like, you're like a dog and you're like protecting my purse.

Kara Swisher 36:45 Well, it's like-

Scott Galloway 36:45 Like, "No, get away from my purse."

Kara Swisher 36:46 ... cheap-ass discount Scott Galloway. I don't want cheap-ass d- I want the real fucking deal.

Scott Galloway 36:51 Ah, you want the, you want the premium? You want that new leather smell? You want that new-

Kara Swisher 36:55 No, I do not-

Scott Galloway 36:55 ... smell of-

Kara Swisher 36:55 ... want Bill Ackman to give dating advice. I'd like him to move along.

Scott Galloway 36:58 It's the smell of men and Speedstick.

Kara Swisher 36:58 I love hedge fund advice from Bill, Bill Ackman.

Scott Galloway 37:00 I smell so weird right now.

Kara Swisher 37:01 All right.

Scott Galloway 37:01 I bought, I bought AXE spray in the airport 'cause I didn't have deodorant.

Kara Swisher 37:05 What?

Scott Galloway 37:05 I smell like a 19 year old.

Kara Swisher 37:06 That's like a teenage boy.

Scott Galloway 37:06 Yeah. (laughs)

Kara Swisher 37:07 No, 19? Try 12.

Scott Galloway 37:09 Yeah. Nah, I, I definitely-

Kara Swisher 37:10 Talk to m- My sons were done with it at 13.

Scott Galloway 37:12 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 37:12 Anyway. Ooh, AXE has the worst smell.

Scott Galloway 37:13 But just the, just to put-

Kara Swisher 37:14 I just had a memory of really bad smelling young men. Oh my God.

Scott Galloway 37:17 Just to put a final point on the actual substance of the conversation.

Kara Swisher 37:20 Okay.

Scott Galloway 37:20 So at the peak of the dot-com bubble, um, all of big tech accounted for about 34% of the S&P. There's just 10 companies now that account for 40%, and the 10 biggest companies in tech back then were 27%. So these companies are 50% more expensive as a percentage.

Kara Swisher 37:37 Oof.

Scott Galloway 37:37 Or they account for 50%-

Kara Swisher 37:38 Really? That's terrible.

Scott Galloway 37:39 ... more as a percentage of the total S&P. So we are now in, this was-

Kara Swisher 37:42 Look out below territory.

Scott Galloway 37:43 Well ...

Kara Swisher 37:44 That's right.

Scott Galloway 37:44 If you look at what happened to these companies in 2000-

Kara Swisher 37:47 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 37:47 ... and you look at their peak from which they fell, these companies are now 50%, uh, have 50% more market cap as a percentage of the total market. And then the Buffett test where you take essentially the market cap of the S&P as a percentage, um, of GDP, he likes it, he, d- I guess normally it trades around 80 or 90%. It's trading at 220% right now. (laughs)

Kara Swisher 38:10 Yeah. Yeah, well Buffett-

Scott Galloway 38:11 So-

Kara Swisher 38:11 ... is mostly in cash, except he bought some Google shares.

Scott Galloway 38:13 Oh, he's ass- Do you know he's assembled a war chest of th- $310 billion in cash?

Kara Swisher 38:19 He did buy, he did buy Google. He did buy off-

Scott Galloway 38:21 Yeah, he bought Alphabet. But-

Kara Swisher 38:23 That was interesting.

Scott Galloway 38:24 Uh, and, and Apple and Amazon are probably the least vulnerable because they have not gone all in on AI like everybody else.

Kara Swisher 38:30 Yeah, yeah.

Scott Galloway 38:30 But the narrative has changed really dramatically.

Kara Swisher 38:33 Dramatically.

Scott Galloway 38:33 Which isn't to say, which isn't to say that the market ... My friend Barry Ritholtz reminded me that in '97 when everyone said, said the market was overvalued, it-

Kara Swisher 38:41 Yeah, it took a while.

Scott Galloway 38:41 ... the NASDAQ doubled from that point.

Kara Swisher 38:43 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 38:43 But this feels really, really-

Kara Swisher 38:46 It's, it's gonna go fast.

Scott Galloway 38:47 ... wobbly.

Kara Swisher 38:47 It's gonna go fast. That's my feeling. Um, all right, Scott, let's go on a quick break, and when we come back, bonds are thriving. (instrumental music)

Scott Galloway 38:53 Support for the show comes from Odoo. Running a business is hard enough, and you don't need to make it harder with a dozen different apps that don't talk to each other. One for sales, another for inventory, a separate one for accounting. Before you know it, you find yourself drowning in software and processes instead of focusing on what matters, growing your business. This is where Odoo comes in. It's the only business software you'll ever need. Odoo is an all-in-one fully integrated platform that handles everything. That means CRM accounting, inventory, e-commerce, HR and more. No more app overload. No more juggling logins. Just one seamless system that makes work easier. And the best part is that Odoo replaces multiple expensive platforms for a fraction of the cost. It's built to grow with your business, whether you're just starting out or you're already scaling up. Plus, it's easy to use, customizable and designed to streamline every process. It's time to put the clutter aside and focus on what really matters, running your business. Thousands of businesses have made the switch, so why not you? Try Odoo for free at odoo.com. That's O-D-O-O .com. (instrumental music) Support for the show comes from AG1. Look, we all know we aren't getting any younger, which means we've gotta make the most of what we have today. And to get that energy, it's time you try AG1. AG1 NextGen is a daily health drink clinically shown to support gut health and fill in common nutrient gaps. With five probiotic strains and 75 plus vitamins and minerals, AG1 NextGen replaces the need for a multivitamin, probiotic and more. One scoop in the morning with eight to 12 ounces of cold water adds up to whole body health support from 75 plus vitamins, minerals, probiotics and whole food sourced ingredients. I've used AG1 and I really like it. I'm a supporter. Head to drinkag1.com/pivot to claim your free welcome kit. You'll get a bottle of vitamin D3/K2, a shaker bottle and a sample pack of all three new AG1 flavors, tropical citrus and berry, to find your favorite. That's drinkag1.com/pivot to try AG1 today.

Kara Swisher 40:52 We're back with more news. So

Kara Swisher 40:54 bonds are having a moment. What's usually seen as a steady, predictable investment, uh, is having its best year since 2020. So far, the Bloomberg US Aggregate Bond Index has returned around 6.7% in 2025. And you know who's noticed? President Trump. He's bought at least $82 million in corporate municipal bonds since the end of the summer. According to ethics forms, we're talking about over 175 separate purchases here. And here's the interesting part. A bunch of these investments are in sectors that are so happy to benefit from his own policies. What a surprise. And by the way, I recommend watching Scott Pelley's piece on 60 Minutes about the Binance CEO pardon. It's not new reporting by any stretch of the imagination, but he brings it together nicely. Anyway, um, is there a smart move for non-presidents? Explain this for the people. Again, I shall not comment 'cause I don't know, but can I meet you? But go ahead, sorry. (laughs)

Scott Galloway 41:44 ... uh, it, like, it's just, it's been a bit of a flight to safety. Interest rates aren't ... They're historically not that high, but f- from terms of recent history, they feel fairly rich. And I think what's going on here is pretty basic, and that is a lot of investors feel the way I do, and that is, we have no idea where to invest or find value. It feels like, with gold up 55%, it's like, "Where do you go?" Like, where ... All the stock- stocks are overvalued. Even foreign markets are getting not frothy, but what feels like fully valued. And also, there's a lo- ... It feels like there's a lot of risk in the system. So if, if your return on bonds is fairly decent and ... Bonds are in the top of the cap structure, meaning that as long ... NVIDIA could, could get cut by 90%, but it would likely still be able to pay off its debt or its bonds. And so people generally think of bonds as being a safer instrument, and they're getting, uh, they're getting actually paid for the risk, most people would argue right now, because of the run-up in interest rates and inflation. So kind of a safe haven is like, people look at the market and go, "I don't know where ..." When the Dow is trading at a PE of 25 and the Russell 2000 at 34, with the median historical at 19 and 15 respectively, like, okay, uh, stocks are just too goddamn expensive. So there's been of a, just a bit of a flight into the bond market, which has rallied the bond market. It's, I think it's ... I don't think it's that bonds are such a great deal. I think it's a flight. I think it's a, quote-unquote, "risk-off strategy," and there's more, more money is just floating out of stocks into, uh, the bond market. I think it's a pretty basic kind of-

Kara Swisher 43:19 Right.

Scott Galloway 43:19 ... fear index. Like, people are-

Kara Swisher 43:20 What, what do you think about Trump moving into them?

Scott Galloway 43:23 You know, I don't-

Kara Swisher 43:24 More corruption? Or just-

Scott Galloway 43:25 I, I don't know what's going on there.

Kara Swisher 43:26 ... just planning?

Scott Galloway 43:26 I think what's gonna happen ... I think the biggest thing that's gonna happen in the debt markets is that-

Kara Swisher 43:31 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 43:31 ... essentially, America's a giant bet on AI, in terms of-

Kara Swisher 43:35 Right.

Scott Galloway 43:35 ... uh, uh ...

Kara Swisher 43:35 As you've noted, yeah.

Scott Galloway 43:37 E- e- e- everything is about AI now. If these companies get cut, I don't see any way that the global economy doesn't go into a recession, because now-

Kara Swisher 43:45 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 43:46 ... s- the S&P dominates global market cap, and, uh, these 10 companies are 40% of the S&P. So 20%-

Kara Swisher 43:53 Right.

Scott Galloway 43:53 ... of global market cap is in 10 companies.

Kara Swisher 43:56 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 43:56 But if you think about ... I'm, I mean, i- if this thing comes undone, it's just-

Kara Swisher 44:02 I know.

Scott Galloway 44:02 It's just so ... I don't ... I mean, it's just, uh, quite frankly, it's just kind of scary. I'm, I'm sitting here thinking, "Wow, how do I get out of the bonds?"

Kara Swisher 44:09 What are you gonna put your money in?

Scott Galloway 44:11 Like, where do I-

Kara Swisher 44:11 Are you gonna put gold up your ass? What are you doing?

Scott Galloway 44:13 Where do I ... You know, where do, where do I-

Kara Swisher 44:15 Gold up your ass. Okay.

Scott Galloway 44:16 Where do I put my money? It's, it's, it's-

Kara Swisher 44:18 Cash. That's what ... That's ... And then, of course, you don't wanna miss it, yeah. It's very ... It's a very fraught time, I think.

Scott Galloway 44:23 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 44:23 Anyway, uh, one more quick break.

Scott Galloway 44:25 Oh, I'm sorry, but you asked about Trump.

Kara Swisher 44:26 Okay.

Scott Galloway 44:26 I'm sorry. I'm all over the place here.

Kara Swisher 44:27 Tr- yeah, go ahead.

Scott Galloway 44:28 The, the biggest thing that's gonna happen in the bond market or it's gonna be a weird thing-

Kara Swisher 44:32 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 44:32 Not only is America a giant bet on AI, Trump's presidency is a giant bet on AI, because-

Kara Swisher 44:36 Yes.

Scott Galloway 44:36 ... I just don't think he would-

Kara Swisher 44:37 Very good point.

Scott Galloway 44:38 If, if the market wasn't up 14 ... If the market was down 14%, not up 14%, I don't think we'd have National Guard in cities, National Guard. I just think he'd be so much less-

Kara Swisher 44:47 Yeah, he's been pulling them out though. Do you notice that?

Scott Galloway 44:49 The S&P and the Dow continue to be the most damaging metrics ever invested 'cause they give the illusion of prosperity and that everything's all right. It is not.

Kara Swisher 44:57 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 44:57 And they also credit or, or blame the president unfairly for the market's machinations. If this, if the AI trade un- unwinds, it's gonna be terrible for Trump.

Kara Swisher 45:09 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 45:09 So I think what he's gonna do-

Kara Swisher 45:11 Yeah. Yeah.

Scott Galloway 45:11 ... I think he's gonna backstop the pur- these enormous purchases. And what I mean by that is if OpenAI says, "We need $500 billion to buy all these or commit to all these chips," I think they're gonna ask the government to backstop the debt, and ... Which is, which is, by the way, socialism. But I think-

Kara Swisher 45:29 Yes, it is.

Scott Galloway 45:29 ... he's gonna do that, but I wonder what's gonna happen to the credit markets when all of a sudden-

Kara Swisher 45:32 Are you kidding? That's gonna drive MAGA crazy. He is gonna lose so much election-wise if that happens.

Scott Galloway 45:39 Well, the reason wh-

Kara Swisher 45:40 That will-

Scott Galloway 45:40 The reason why Treasury bills e- and are so ... Pay a lower interest rate than, than corporate bonds is corporations are supposed to take greater risks.

Kara Swisher 45:49 Right. Yeah.

Scott Galloway 45:49 And also, they're not as creditworthy as the US government. And when you start-

Kara Swisher 45:52 Yeah. Oh, yeah.

Scott Galloway 45:53 ... melding the corp- the private bond market and the US Treasury market, you're basically saying, "Okay, these are no longer ... These take on the risk profile of corporate bonds then-"

Kara Swisher 46:02 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 46:02 "... which could raise interest costs." Interest costs are already our biggest, uh, have become our, I think our biggest expense, uh, behind Social Security. They're a trillion dollars now. And that's a ... And that's even despite the fact that they trade, you know, most people would argue, like, a very safe instrument. He'll, he would basically raise our ... I believe he would raise our interest rate cost by 100 or 200 million a year.

Kara Swisher 46:26 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 46:26 Trying to backstop the trade that if it unwinds, not only winds up the economy but-

Kara Swisher 46:30 He better not do that. I think that will be talk ... Ma- Marjorie will be mad about that one and t-

Narrator 46:34 Oh, MAGA?

Scott Galloway 46:34 She'll be mad.

Kara Swisher 46:34 You're right. MAGA will lose their shit over that.

Scott Galloway 46:36 Lose their shit over that. Anyway, Scott, one more quick break. We'll be back for wins and fails. (instrumental music plays) Support for this show comes from MS NOW. "We the people, in order to form a more perfect union." These words are more than just the opening of the Constitution. They're a reminder of who this country belongs to and what we can be at our best. They're also the cornerstone of MS NOW. Whether it's breaking news, exclusive reporting, election coverage or in-depth analysis, MS NOW keeps the people at the heart of everything they do. Home to The Rachel Maddow Show, Morning Joe, The Briefing with Jen Psaki, and more voices you know and trust, MS NOW is your source for news, opinion and the world. Their name is new, but you'll find the same commitment to justice, progress and the truth you've relied on for decades. They'll continue to cover the day's news, ask tough questions and explain how it impacts you. I really want these guys to win. Same mission, new name, MS NOW. Learn more at ms.now.

Kara Swisher 47:40 Okay, Scott. Let's do wins and

Kara Swisher 47:42 fails. I think I will go first.

Scott Galloway 47:44 Go ahead.

Kara Swisher 47:44 Um, one thing that really irritates me... Now, I like Seth Meyers. Uh, I, I don't think he's my friend, but I l- I talk to him and he's a really terrific guy. Um, uh, the administration's war on late night continues. President Trump has called on NBC to fire Seth Meyers after the show featured multiple roasts at his expense. Seth is very funny. President said Meyers was suffering from TDS, or Trump derangement syndrome, and described his performance as uncontrollable rage. It's ridiculous. In a normal world, that's fine. He can complain about it. He's obsessed with late night. He's obviously up late, or something's happening by himself in his room with his clicker. Um, and in an, uh, uh, it, what really irritated me, once again, fucking FCC chair, uh, Brad- Brandon Carr sh- re-shared the post. Brandon, you suck-up toady. Do you understand the jig is frigging up for this guy at some point? And you are gonna go down hard. Hard, let me just say. Uh, he is, should not be sharing this post, um, about firing people when he got into trouble before saying, you know, "We're coming to get Jimmy Kimmel." Remember that?

Scott Galloway 48:46 Mm-hmm.

Kara Swisher 48:46 Where he had to take back? Um, I thought... I, I just... He is such a dumb fuck, I don't know what else to say. But Trump can yank... Uh, he, he hammers on about whoever, the, Marjorie Taylor Greene. I think he is putting her at risk, by the way. Um, and by the way, call out to Da- Dana Bash for pointing out, "Marjorie, you weren't concerned about this until it was directed at you." And, uh, Greene said, "That's a fair criticism, and you're right." Um, but, uh, but e- in this case, Brandon Carr is, continues to make the same stupid mistake 'cause he's not very smart. My win, SNL this week. Glen Powell was so s- spectacularly good on SNL.

Scott Galloway 49:22 Mm.

Kara Swisher 49:22 He was so good, he, he really fell into it really beautifully. He, he's, uh, I would, uh, I'm sh- he's shockingly, surprisingly funny, um, 'cause he's so handsome and he took off his shirt, of course. Um, but there was an SNL AI photo sketch that... It's not a new idea that a- AI photos are demented, sometimes can be demented, or videos that you make. That's been a trope for, you know, this AI slop thing, and weird photos with six hands. It was so funny. It, like, it, it was about a grandmother and their kids give them this a- AI photos that turn old photos into AI photos and they come alive. It was so funny. I recommend everybody see it. It l- it just really encapsulated like how fucking ridiculous these AI photo enhancements are. And I just thank Glen Powell. Kudos.

Scott Galloway 50:12 So my win is Tom Cruise received his first Oscar. I was-

Kara Swisher 50:16 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 50:16 ... here in LA and I kept seeing all them, uh... I kept seeing all these stars at the hotel. And I guess last night was the Governor's Award or something? Or I-

Kara Swisher 50:24 Governor's Awards, yep. Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 50:25 And Tom Cruise was given an honorary Oscar for his-

Kara Swisher 50:28 Deserved.

Scott Galloway 50:28 ... you know, contribution to the, to the medium. But just... I've always thought that Tom Cruise and Brad Pitt, and I think the same is actually true of Channing Tatum, he's in this cool movie called Roof Man. But I think these guys are so good-looking that it actually diminishes their, the perception of just what fantastic actors they are.

Kara Swisher 50:47 Is that what happens to you?

Scott Galloway 50:48 That does happen to me. Me and-

Kara Swisher 50:49 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 50:50 Me and Bill Ackman.

Kara Swisher 50:50 People don't appreciate-

Scott Galloway 50:52 Um, uh, but just-

Kara Swisher 50:53 Fuck an Ackman.

Scott Galloway 50:54 ... just some of the movies, his body of work. Obviously the Mission: Impossible and Top Gun-

Kara Swisher 50:58 I agree.

Scott Galloway 50:58 ... franchises. But he, people forget he was in Risky Business when he was a, you know, I think he was-

Kara Swisher 51:03 Yep.

Scott Galloway 51:03 ... a teenager. Edge of Tomorrow, Minority Report, Rain Man.

Kara Swisher 51:08 Great. Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 51:08 The Color of-

Kara Swisher 51:09 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 51:09 ... Money where Paul Newman finally got the c- uh, an Oscar. Collateral, A Few Good Men, Jerry Maguire.

Kara Swisher 51:17 Yeah, that was great.

Scott Galloway 51:17 And my favorite-

Kara Swisher 51:18 You Can't Handle The Truth. Sorry.

Scott Galloway 51:20 (laughs) And my favorite film-

Kara Swisher 51:21 Mm.

Scott Galloway 51:21 ... of his, um, Magnolia. I thought-

Kara Swisher 51:24 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 51:25 ... uh, directed by Paul Thomas Anderson. I thought he should've got the award for that. Tropic Thunder, Eyes Wide Shut. Uh, I mean, this guy... Taps, The Last Samurai, which was actually a pretty good film. Even his bad films were pretty good. All the Right Moves, remember that? Far and Away, that wasn't very good.

Kara Swisher 51:42 I'm a huge Tom Cruise fan, e- despite the Scientologist. I think he's a creepy in real life dude. I have to say, I've enjoyed his-

Scott Galloway 51:49 He's not creepy.

Kara Swisher 51:49 ... films.

Scott Galloway 51:49 He's a Scientologist but he's, he seems like-

Kara Swisher 51:51 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 51:51 ... I've heard he's a really nice man.

Kara Swisher 51:53 I, the... I, uh, on sets, he's very generous. He's got that Taylor Swift generousness. He's tough on people in a good way. I, I would agree. Uh, you don't hear... It's just the Scientologic thing is-

Scott Galloway 52:03 Penelas-

Kara Swisher 52:04 ...

Narrator 52:04 ... ******* thing.

Scott Galloway 52:04 ... Sky with the most beautiful woman in the world, Penelope Cruz.

Kara Swisher 52:06 He went out with her this summer.

Scott Galloway 52:07 Anyways, congratulations. I think Tom Cruise is just an incredible talent.

Kara Swisher 52:10 Nice. Nice one. Okay.

Scott Galloway 52:12 And, um-

Kara Swisher 52:12 I like that. I'm gonna agree with you.

Scott Galloway 52:14 And anyways, my, you know, my fail is the boring stuff and that is, uh, I, I just think we are in a crazy fucking over-inflated market right now. Y- if you look at... Even the emerging markets index is up 30%. Uh, that's outpaced the S&P. That was the trade I recommended at the end, end of last year, was foreign stocks. And now that trade's kind of over. Bitcoin's at an all-time high, 126,000. I mentioned gold is up 55%. And now, um, I mean, you're... Uh, everything is just so expensive and whenever we get to this level of froth, if sometimes there's not a crash, sometimes it just plays out over a decade, which is sometimes even worse. It just goes... There's been entire decades, Kara, where the market just goes flat. Like-

Kara Swisher 53:01 Right.

Scott Galloway 53:02 ... New York real estate typically doesn't go down, it just goes sideway for 10 years. I was looking... I was reviewing all my investments over the last decade and actually my real estate, my, the place I own in Manhattan has performed the least well.

Kara Swisher 53:16 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 53:16 And that can happen when a market is frothy. Sometimes it's not a big dramatic media event. It just goes flat for 10 years.

Kara Swisher 53:23 Yep.

Scott Galloway 53:23 And the S&P 400 PE typically averages 17. It's now at 22. Uh, it's only traded above 22 times twice since 1985 during the whole, wait for it-

Kara Swisher 53:34 I see.

Scott Galloway 53:34 ... .com bubble-

Kara Swisher 53:36 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 53:36 ... and the COVID-19 pandemic. And after that, the market fell off sharply each time. Anyways-

Kara Swisher 53:42 That's worrying.

Scott Galloway 53:43 Anyways, my-

Kara Swisher 53:43 That's awkward.

Scott Galloway 53:44 ... I'm usually ... I mean, granted, uh, you know, uh, Andrew Osterreicher and Josh Brown from Ritholtz Management have always reminded me, and I need to do this, and it's one of my many flaws as an investor, you have to constantly ask yourself, "What could go right?" And Andrew says that it's the optimists who have vastly beaten the pessimists in the market over the medium and the long term. Because of demographics and innovation, the market continues to kind of churn up. But this feels ... The, the, the argument or the loss is I think it's unhealthy for an economy to have this kind of concentration of power and value. It creates fragility, and that is-

Kara Swisher 54:18 And the corruption layered on top of it to bad decisions.

Scott Galloway 54:20 Well, that doesn't help. But the-

Kara Swisher 54:21 No, bad decisions.

Scott Galloway 54:23 But just the, um ... I mean-

Kara Swisher 54:24 Backstopping OpenAI? What a terrible decision that would be.

Scott Galloway 54:27 Oh, that would be terrible. But Nassim Taleb says ... He talks about fragility and anti-fragility and what the definition of robust is. And a robust industry is one where any one or number of companies go out of business, and it wouldn't threaten the entire sector. So if McDonald's goes out of business-

Kara Swisher 54:40 Yeah. Yeah, who cares?

Scott Galloway 54:40 ... you're still gonna be able to get your cheap fatty calories. So the, actually the, the fast food industry is very robust. Our economy is becoming very fragile because of the regulatory capture and also just the hysteria around this space. And we now have 10 companies that are literally the string that, if they get pulled on, puts the global economy into a recession.

Kara Swisher 55:04 Yeah, I remember.

Scott Galloway 55:04 So it's boring-

Kara Swisher 55:05 That's okay.

Scott Galloway 55:05 But my, my fail is-

Kara Swisher 55:07 Scott's worried in LA.

Scott Galloway 55:08 Well, a lack of, a lack of antitrust-

Kara Swisher 55:11 When it's gray in LA, I sure like (laughs)

Scott Galloway 55:13 Anyways, that's ... My win is Tom Cruise finally getting the recognition he deserves. And my fail is we have let our economy, um, become way too concentrated across a small number. We have an anti-fragile, or we have a fragile economy right now based on this trade, which is-

Kara Swisher 55:29 Okay. Yeah.

Scott Galloway 55:29 By the way, folks, it's now more crazy town than it was in '99.

Kara Swisher 55:33 Correct. All right, that's really bracing and sobering. Anyway, we wanna hear from you. Send us your questions about business, tech, or whatever's on your mind. Go to nyamag.com/pivot, submit a question for the show, or call 855-51-PIVOT. Elsewhere in the Karen Scott universe this week on, On with Kara Swisher, I spoke with filmmakers Ken Burns and Sarah Botstein about their American Revolution, their new six-part docuseries airing on PBS. I highly recommend it. Let's listen to a clip of Ken talking about young people.

Guest 56:03 They're more open. They're per- they're persuadable. They're-

Kara Swisher 56:06 Mm-hmm.

Guest 56:06 They went with the democratic socialist, you know?

Kara Swisher 56:09 Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Guest 56:10 Uh, democratic socialists don't kill Jews. National socialists killed Jews.

Kara Swisher 56:14 Mm-hmm.

Guest 56:15 Many of our allies are ... have been or are democratic socialists. I'm not worried about democratic socialists.

Kara Swisher 56:22 Mm-hmm.

Guest 56:22 I'm worried about dictators.

Kara Swisher 56:25 (laughs)

Guest 56:25 That's what I'm worried about, and so are they-

Kara Swisher 56:27 Mm-hmm.

Guest 56:27 ... 'cause they told us which way they wanted to go.

Kara Swisher 56:30 Okay, that was a great interview. Um, that's ... And I, again, I recommend the show. Um, a- and it's, it's really full of really ... things I didn't know, and I'm, I'm a history buff. Okay, that's the show. Uh, thanks for listening to Pivot, and be sure to like and subscribe to our YouTube channel. We'll be back on Friday. Scott, read us out.

Scott Galloway 56:45 Today's show was produced by Lara Nehm and Zoe Marcus and Taylor Griffin. Ernie Untertodt engineered this episode. Jim Mackell edited the video. Thanks also to Drew Burrows, Mia Cervero, and Dan Chalon. Nishad Kura is Vox Media's executive producer of podcasts. Make sure to follow Pivot on your favorite podcast platform. Thanks for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media. You can subscribe to the magazine at nymag.com/pod. We'll be back later this week for another breakdown of all things tech and business.