Will Gavin Newsom’s Trump Trolling Deliver Real Results? | Pivot

Abby Phillip 0:00 I don't think that your presidential chances are related to your social media clout.

Kara Swisher 0:05 Yeah. Though he does look good astride an eagle with a chest. He does look good. (laughs) Hi, everyone. This is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Kara Swisher. Welcome back to ... Scott Free August. Scott is still away so I have yet another fantastic co-host, Abby Phillip, the anchor of CNN's News Night with Abby Phillip. Abby, welcome.

Abby Phillip 0:38 I am so honored to be here when Scott is not around.

Kara Swisher 0:41 I know. We can do all kinds of naughty things.

Abby Phillip 0:43 It's gonna be great.

Kara Swisher 0:43 Just, I don't know if you listened to Rachel last week, but (laughs) this last week, but-

Abby Phillip 0:47 I did.

Kara Swisher 0:47 ... we can do whatever we want.

Abby Phillip 0:48 It was very lesbian.

Kara Swisher 0:49 Um, and you also-

Abby Phillip 0:49 It was great. (laughs)

Kara Swisher 0:51 Yeah, you also get a little break 'cause you're usually the host. You're just the wrangler. So I will wrangle you if you don't mind.

Abby Phillip 0:56 Great.

Kara Swisher 0:57 Yeah. So I know you're, um ... I want to talk a little bit about a couple of things y- you're up to. Um, one is your show, your show which has been very successful, incredibly busy, as I said, wrangling and then sometimes wrestling to the ground all sorts of personalities on your five nights a week show. This week, incredibly, you have a lot of viral moments. It's usually with Scott Jennings. We're not getting into Scott Jennings here, but I have to say that Jillian Michaels' thing, um, really took off this week. Um, I'm gonna play the, the exchange, um, that she had and how you dealt with her. Let's listen.

Jillian (panelist on Abby’s CNN show clip) 1:29 He forgave me for saying it. It's not whitewashing slavery. So- Uh, he's not? He's not, no. Okay. He's, he's not. And you cannot tie imperialism and racism and slavery to just one race, which is pretty much what every single exhibit does. But let's talk about the fact that when you look- In the United States- Let's talk about the fact- ... anti-slavery, the anti-slavery movement in terms of- I mean, United s- slavery in America was a system of White supremacy. Do you know that only less than 2% of White Americans owned slaves? But it was a system of White supremacy. Do, do you realize that slavery is thousands of years old? You know, African-Americans were slaves and White people were their slave owners. Do you know who was the first race to, to try to end slavery? I didn't watch this. It's controversial. Okay. Well, what's controversial- I'm sorry. I'm sorry.

Abby Phillip 2:00 Jillian, I'm, I'm very surprised-

Jillian (panelist on Abby’s CNN show clip) 2:01 ... is- This is an extraordinary exercise in historical revisionism. Whoa. Uh, I, I'm really surprised-

Abby Phillip 2:04 I'm really surprised-

Jillian (panelist on Abby’s CNN show clip) 2:05 Historical revisionism? Do you realize that-

Abby Phillip 2:06 Jillian, I'm surprised that you're trying to litigate, um, th- who was the beneficiary of slavery and who was-

Jillian (panelist on Abby’s CNN show clip) 2:11 I'm not.

Kara Swisher 2:13 Okay. You handled that really well. (laughs)

Jillian (panelist on Abby’s CNN show clip) 2:15 (laughs)

Kara Swisher 2:15 I don't know how you jumped in there, but sh- that was nuts what she was saying, in my opinion.

Abby Phillip 2:20 Yeah. It, it, I mean, it, it was wild. Uh, look, everybody was shocked. It, it was unexpected, to be frank.

Kara Swisher 2:26 Mm-hmm.

Abby Phillip 2:26 Because we were not really in a discussion about that (laughs) at the table-

Kara Swisher 2:31 Yeah.

Abby Phillip 2:31 ... when she just brings it up.

Kara Swisher 2:32 Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Abby Phillip 2:33 And, um, you know, my philosophy ab- about the show, first of all, I, I think I've, I've seen some people questioning why was she even there, she's a fitness guru-

Kara Swisher 2:41 Mm-hmm.

Abby Phillip 2:41 ... all of that. And I don't-

Kara Swisher 2:43 I believe I have texted you that. (laughs)

Abby Phillip 2:44 Well, no, no, no, not just you, but a lot of people have said that.

Kara Swisher 2:46 Yeah.

Abby Phillip 2:47 I'm just saying, I, I get it. Um, I understand that there are some characters in our politics today who are like, "How did this person even get here?"

Kara Swisher 2:57 Mm-hmm.

Abby Phillip 2:57 But the truth is, is that she represe- ... First of all, she is a kind of MAGA influencer. She represents-

Kara Swisher 3:05 Mm-hmm.

Abby Phillip 3:05 ... that point of view. And, um, and, and just like we have, um ... Not that I'm comparing the two, but we have comedians and actors. We have Roy Wood Jr. come on, we have Wendell Pierce.

Kara Swisher 3:15 Mm-hmm.

Abby Phillip 3:15 We have people who are not Washington voices come on and-

Kara Swisher 3:20 Right.

Abby Phillip 3:20 ... share their views. Um, Jillian Michaels has views that represent-

Kara Swisher 3:26 Mm-hmm.

Abby Phillip 3:26 ... about half the country. So there's that. Uh, the, the second thing is that you heard me there not really weighing in when she started talking. There were other guests weighing in. And, and part of it was because I was literally listening to her, trying to understand what the heck she was talking about. Um, and then when it became clear that, that she was trying to sort of downplay slavery, I was just like shocked. Like, "Are you really going to do this on national television?" Giving her an opportunity to not do it.

Kara Swisher 3:53 Mm-hmm.

Abby Phillip 3:53 But she continued on and, and then later on she said that she got this list of talking points from the White House about exhibits that-

Kara Swisher 4:02 Mm-hmm.

Abby Phillip 4:02 ... they wanted to dispute, and frankly, it, it's ... It was pretty ignorant. I, look-

Kara Swisher 4:07 Mm-hmm.

Abby Phillip 4:07 I don't like to talk about, negatively about guests who come on the show-

Kara Swisher 4:11 Mm-hmm.

Abby Phillip 4:11 ... because I just don't think that's good form. Um, even when I disagree with people, I respect their right to, uh, embarrass themselves on national television. I think it-

Kara Swisher 4:20 Mm-hmm.

Abby Phillip 4:21 It, it is their right to do that. (laughs)

Kara Swisher 4:22 You respect their right. (laughs)

Abby Phillip 4:23 But I ... And I don't wanna, um ... I don't wanna disparage people even when they disparage me-

Kara Swisher 4:28 Mm-hmm.

Abby Phillip 4:28 ... to be quite frank-

Kara Swisher 4:29 Mm-hmm.

Abby Phillip 4:29 ... online.

Kara Swisher 4:30 Mm-hmm.

Abby Phillip 4:30 But I, but I'll just state as a factual matter what I told her, which is that, um, it is nonsensical to suggest that slavery in the United States was something, was about something other than race, A.

Kara Swisher 4:42 Mm-hmm.

Abby Phillip 4:42 And B, um, even this idea that 2% of White people owned slaves, that-

Kara Swisher 4:47 Mm-hmm.

Abby Phillip 4:47 That is such a ridiculous point because you don't have to own slaves to enforce White supremacy and slavery, to benefit-

Kara Swisher 4:53 Mm-hmm.

Abby Phillip 4:54 ... from it, uh, to gain generational wealth as a result of it. And, um, and the percentage of Americans where slavery was le- lawful who had slaves or participated in slavery is much larger than 2%. So it's completely-

Kara Swisher 5:08 Yeah.

Abby Phillip 5:08 ... disingenuous.

Kara Swisher 5:10 Yeah.

Abby Phillip 5:10 This whole thing is ridiculous. I ... It's embarrassing-

Kara Swisher 5:13 Mm-hmm.

Abby Phillip 5:13 ... more for her than anything else.

Kara Swisher 5:15 Yeah.

Abby Phillip 5:15 But, um, but, but look, I, I also ... You know, I'm ... I've been on this earth long enough that I know many people believe this. I have not ... That was not the first time that I had heard that argument.

Kara Swisher 5:26 Uh, me neither.

Abby Phillip 5:27 Okay?

Kara Swisher 5:27 I've heard it from her.

Abby Phillip 5:28 Yeah? You've heard it, right?

Kara Swisher 5:29 Yeah. Yeah.

Abby Phillip 5:29 So we've heard this before. So-

Kara Swisher 5:31 Right.

Abby Phillip 5:31 Let's be honest. Like people believe this stuff.

Kara Swisher 5:34 Right.

Abby Phillip 5:35 And don't be shocked when they come out and say it on national television.

Kara Swisher 5:37 Yeah. That was a really smart thing you said. You're trying to litigate who was the beneficiary. Very even-handed, but also smart-minded. Talk a little bit about how you do that, how you think about what your job is there.

Abby Phillip 5:49 I, I'm never bringing people on to say crazy things. Let's be frank about that. That is never the intention, okay? (laughs) People's decisions to say crazy things are never expected or predictable. Um, however, I mean ... And, and I know that, that folks, um, really dislike Scott for his, his views.But, but I would say that, um, you know, there are views that you don't like, that you think are unfounded, um, but that are pretty widely shared, and I think Scott falls into that category. Now, there are definitely times, if you watch the show, um, that we have conversations where I will say to Scott and others, "Just stop because we're not playing whatever game it is that you want to play in this moment."

Kara Swisher 6:41 Just so... We're gonna clarify by the way. We're talking about your Scott, not our Scott.

Abby Phillip 6:45 Not your...

Kara Swisher 6:45 Just, I have a Scott-

Abby Phillip 6:46 Yeah, which is a point of-

Kara Swisher 6:47 ... I have a different Scott.

Abby Phillip 6:47 ... major confusion between us, Kara, all the time.

Kara Swisher 6:50 Yeah.

Abby Phillip 6:51 You will say-

Kara Swisher 6:51 (laughs)

Abby Phillip 6:51 ... "Oh, I did this thing with Scott," and I'm like, "You did? I thought you-"

Kara Swisher 6:55 (laughs) Yes.

Abby Phillip 6:56 ... thought you didn't really do things with-

Kara Swisher 6:56 Off screen, Scott Jennings and I are really, big-

Abby Phillip 6:59 ... Scott.

Kara Swisher 6:59 We play, uh, pickleball together. (laughs) No, we do not. That would be good though. I would beat him.

Abby Phillip 7:05 But I do think that what I, what I try to say is if, if I, if I detect that what you're doing is playing a game of, um, "Let me say something that I think is gonna go viral. Let me misrepresent what's being said here-"

Kara Swisher 7:20 Sure.

Abby Phillip 7:21 "... to try to create a moment," I will stop that-

Kara Swisher 7:24 Yeah. You did that-

Abby Phillip 7:25 ... when it's, when it happens.

Kara Swisher 7:25 ... around Gaza. Who was that? There was one in, in-

Abby Phillip 7:28 Yeah. I, I, I mean, I... Scott was involved in that one. I mean, Scott is often involved (laughs) in those moments when I say, "No. We're s- we're stopping." And, um, and I think that there, there are guardrails, but I also think it's, you know, this is an imperfect exercise, right?

Kara Swisher 7:46 Mm-hmm.

Abby Phillip 7:46 So what you think is... What you think should be a guardrail, I may not think should be a guardrail. I try to give people a decent amount of leeway to express their points of view-

Kara Swisher 7:56 Yeah.

Abby Phillip 7:56 ... liberal and conservative, and I will tell you that there are times when... many times frankly-

Kara Swisher 8:01 Mm-hmm.

Abby Phillip 8:02 ... when liberals cross a line.

Kara Swisher 8:04 Yes.

Abby Phillip 8:04 And, um, and, and again, the same leeway that I give to the conservative guests, I give to the liberal guests to express themselves.

Kara Swisher 8:12 Right. Right.

Abby Phillip 8:12 But there are times when I have to s- I have to stop things to keep things on the rails to-

Kara Swisher 8:16 Mm-hmm.

Abby Phillip 8:16 You know, we don't wanna libel people on television. We don't wanna-

Kara Swisher 8:19 Sure.

Abby Phillip 8:19 ... we... I, I don't like the personal attacks which actually do happen more than I would like them to.

Kara Swisher 8:23 Mm-hmm.

Abby Phillip 8:24 Um, so, you know, I... again... But I think the, the bottom line is there's an acknowledgement of the imperfection of this, right?

Kara Swisher 8:33 Right.

Abby Phillip 8:33 This is a conversation that-

Kara Swisher 8:35 The way I think you handle it. I... Sometimes I wanna-

Abby Phillip 8:37 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 8:37 ... send you a bottle of tequila. (laughs)

Abby Phillip 8:40 (laughs) I mean, sometimes I need it.

Kara Swisher 8:41 'Cause your face-

Abby Phillip 8:42 Sometimes I need it. Yeah.

Kara Swisher 8:42 I can see the exasperated look on... I couldn't do it. I wouldn't-

Abby Phillip 8:44 Some-

Kara Swisher 8:44 ... um-

Abby Phillip 8:44 ... sometimes I need it. I mean, there are-

Kara Swisher 8:46 Yeah.

Abby Phillip 8:46 Look, I... there... are there times when I'm like, "That was absolutely ridiculous."

Kara Swisher 8:51 Mm-hmm.

Abby Phillip 8:52 Absol... Totally, totally.

Kara Swisher 8:54 Mm-hmm.

Abby Phillip 8:54 And... but, um, but somebody's gotta do it.

Kara Swisher 8:57 Yeah.

Abby Phillip 8:57 And... (laughs)

Kara Swisher 8:58 Somebody's gotta do it. (laughs) Um, so, so g- last question on this. When you think about shows like this and the sort of... the partisanship, one of the things I remember you and I talked about was breaking p- having real discussions and breaking partisan. Do you think it's gotten, not necessarily on your show, but worse or better? Or how do you look at sort of the landscape and what you're trying to do here in, in general in this country?

Abby Phillip 9:20 Mm-hmm. I don't think that we're solving the issue of partisanship on our show f- by any stretch of the imagination. I think what we are doing is, um, creating a platform for us to really be honest about what the contours of the debate really are. And one thing that I've grown to really have very little tolerance for, just personally, I just find it to be boring but also a little bit disingenuous, is when we have partisans kind of talking past each other-

Kara Swisher 9:48 Right.

Abby Phillip 9:48 ... where they're sort of like... you know, they're kind of like on parallel roads and they never really intersect.

Kara Swisher 9:53 Mm-hmm.

Abby Phillip 9:53 And I just... I don't think that that really is a accurate reflection of where the country is.

Kara Swisher 9:58 Mm-hmm.

Abby Phillip 9:59 So we're in a hyper-partisan moment.

Kara Swisher 10:02 Mm-hmm.

Abby Phillip 10:02 And do I think it's getting better? Not really.

Kara Swisher 10:05 Mm-hmm.

Abby Phillip 10:05 But do I think that we need to better understand where we kind of agree and disagree? Yes.

Kara Swisher 10:13 Mm-hmm.

Abby Phillip 10:13 And the only way to do that is to really take that on head on, and I like that what we do is actually we get into the nitty-gritty about what it says about us that some people, uh, you know, ev- everything that Trump does, they loved. Some people think that it's the dawn of fascism. And I think that we have those values debates, and those conversations are important to... Look, we have to understand our neighbors 'cause these are people that we know, right?

Kara Swisher 10:45 Yeah.

Abby Phillip 10:45 Our neigh-

Kara Swisher 10:46 Yeah. They represent the- each-

Abby Phillip 10:46 Like, actually more, more of your neighbors than you think, than you think probably voted for or supported Trump, and I think we need to understand them a little bit better, but we also need to have a little bit more honesty about what it says about our, um, democracy, our values as individuals and as a community that we want certain things for our country or we don't.

Kara Swisher 11:10 Yeah.

Abby Phillip 11:10 So-

Kara Swisher 11:10 I, I get that. I get that.

Abby Phillip 11:11 ... I, I... That's what I think we, we are doing.

Kara Swisher 11:13 Yeah. I, I think when w- wrestling metaphors are used, I don't love that, right? Like, the idea of wrestling because then it's a game. Then it's the game. I mean, I think that's the, the difficult part that you face. I, I don't, I don't, uh, envy you in that regard. But let me ask you about something else you're working on. You have a book coming out in October, and it's sort of in that genre. It's, um, it's called A Dream Deferred, Jesse Jackson and the Fight for Black Political Power. It focuses on Jackson's presidential runs in 1984 and 1988. Um, I- I'm surprised this is your first book for some reason. I would imagine you've written books before. But, um-

Abby Phillip 11:46 (laughs)

Kara Swisher 11:46 ... why did you want to write about Jesse Jackson who is... he's not gone from our, our history, but in a way he is. He was such a... he was such an enormous figure for so long-

Abby Phillip 11:58 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 11:58 ... at least in my political upbringing. Um, you know, Jesse Jackson was a permanent figure in politics.

Abby Phillip 12:05 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 12:05 Talk a little bit about what you've learned and what will people be surprised to learn?

Abby Phillip 12:10 I think it's exactly for the reason that you just laid out, that I decided to write this book, because he is both this ever-present, seemingly ever-present figure in our understanding of the world and also somebody that has kind of faded from memory in recent years especially, and I don't think has really ever been well-understood. And I thought that, um, there had been, it... There had been so many years that had passed since there was a real kind of comprehensive book about Jesse Jackson. The last one was in the mid-'90s.

Kara Swisher 12:50 Oh, wow.

Abby Phillip 12:50 And so since then, as you can imagine, a lot has happened-

Kara Swisher 12:55 Mm-hmm.

Abby Phillip 12:55 ... with him, with our politics. There was the Barack Obama of it all. There was the Donald Trump of it all, um, Joe Biden of it all. And all of those, those events that have occurred since then, I think, actually need... It, it forced a re- forces a reframing of Jesse Jackson's legacy, and that's what this book is about, is really just to understand wha- let's really look back now that he is in his 80s. Um, he, as you kno- know, is suffering from Parkinson's disease, I think is not really, um, in a position to be a participant in the framing of his own legacy, and so let's take a look-

Kara Swisher 13:37 You obviously could talk to him, correct? Right?

Abby Phillip 13:39 I did talk to him, actually, quite a-

Kara Swisher 13:41 Mm-hmm.

Abby Phillip 13:41 You know, I started working on this book in... Right as COVID was happening in 2020, and I went to Chicago. He's had Parkinson's then, but he could still talk and we had a lengthy interview, and we talked a lot over the years-

Kara Swisher 13:54 Mm-hmm.

Abby Phillip 13:54 ... sometimes about the book, sometimes not. Um, increasingly, he has not been able to speak, so I was able to talk to him, uh, in just enough when he was verbal, um, and so-

Kara Swisher 14:08 He has Parkinson's but not dementia, correct? Or, or...

Abby Phillip 14:11 He, he, yes. He has Parkinson's but not dementia as far as I know. I don't want to speak too much about his medical diagnosis because I don't... I'm not fully read in on the latest on that. But as of right now, he has a lot of difficulty speaking and that was beginning, you know, five years ago when I first started talking to him about this book. So, one of the things about Jesse Jackson is that mo- a lot of people don't even remember if you didn't live through it, that first of all, he was insanely famous. (laughs) He was like... He was a level of fame that people compared to Michael Jackson and to, you know, these massive celebrities. Two, he was a Black man who grew up in the segregated South, who really kind of came from a very not well-to-do family. I mean, he, his, his mother, um... He, his father was his next door neighbor, and his mother became pregnant with him when she was unmarried, and, um, and he, the, his biological father had a whole other family. So, he, his improbable rise, I think, was part of the story, but I mean, he was also the celebrity candidate before Donald Trump was the celebrity candidate. He was-

Kara Swisher 15:32 And had a long political history before that.

Abby Phillip 15:34 Yeah. He was a populist candidate before Bernie Sanders was a populist candidate. He was, um... He came in second place in the 1988 campaign before Barack Obama became the nominee, and had he not won concessions from the Democratic Party to change the rules of how you nominate, uh, candidates, Barack Obama probably would not have been the nominee in 2008. So, there are so many aspects of his legacy that I think just are not very well-understood. I think he is a very complicated fi- figure, which makes, made writing this book very interesting because it's a lot of good things and bad things. It's like personality traits that we see in politicians, arrogance-

Kara Swisher 16:23 Yeah.

Abby Phillip 16:24 ... um-

Kara Swisher 16:24 Grandiosity.

Abby Phillip 16:25 ... you know, narcissism, grandiosity.

Kara Swisher 16:27 Yeah.

Abby Phillip 16:27 You know?

Kara Swisher 16:28 Mm-hmm.

Abby Phillip 16:28 All of that, incredible eloquence along with, um, you know, just they're, they're tied together. The good and the bad are very much tied together. But I think fundamentally, um, his story of running two presidential campaigns at a time when the Ku Klux Klan was still running rallies in Georgia is incredible. (laughs)

Kara Swisher 16:51 Yeah. Yup.

Abby Phillip 16:51 It, it's an incredible story.

Kara Swisher 16:53 Mm-hmm. And what made you... Just very briefly 'cause I'm gonna get to other stuff-

Abby Phillip 16:56 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 16:56 ... but what made you, um, want to do... Cover him?

Abby Phillip 17:03 I think that, um... I, I would say, I would just start by saying, I wasn't really jazzed about writing a book just in general-

Kara Swisher 17:10 Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Abby Phillip 17:10 ... because I, I'm not the type of... Some people are like, "I was born to write a book. I need-"

Kara Swisher 17:15 Yeah. (laughs)

Abby Phillip 17:15 "... my name on a book."

Kara Swisher 17:16 Yeah.

Abby Phillip 17:16 I'm not one of those people. I was like, "I, if I have something to say, I will say it. I don't really want to write a book just for the sake of writing a book." But I did... I was convinced, um, a little bit frankly from my agent to... That there was some responsibility that I had as a journalist, a woman, a Black woman journalist in this moment to participate in the telling of history. And, um, and I think as a political journalist, I wanted to choose, um, a political figure whose story was not that well-understood. And, and I think Jesse Jackson's story was... I realized as I was researching it, was not terribly well-understood but super relevant in this moment of, you know, rising economic populism, of, um, questions about what... Whether or not the Democratic Party should have a coalition that is actually diverse, that represents, you know, Black people, white people, Asian people, Native American people, LGBTQ people, all of that. He was the person who really explicitly said, "That is what the party should look like," and that is why-

Kara Swisher 18:23 Yeah.

Abby Phillip 18:23 ... the Democratic Party looks like that right now. So, I felt like, "Okay."... yeah, I do have a responsibility to tell these stories and to tell it, um, with an understanding of the community that he spoke to, which is Black Americans.

Kara Swisher 18:37 Yeah.

Abby Phillip 18:37 And the more you research it, the more you realize that in the '80s, um, he was always viewed through the lens of White journalists, who discounted him-

Kara Swisher 18:48 Mm-hmm. That's true.

Abby Phillip 18:48 ... who, um, who minimized him, who did not understand his appeal among Black Americans, who largely saw him as a hi- heroic figure, who saw him as a kind of, um, manifestation of their dreams and their aspirations, and I think that was never fully-

Kara Swisher 19:04 No, he wasn't. Your-

Abby Phillip 19:05 ... represented in the media.

Kara Swisher 19:07 Yeah, you're absolutely right. I mean, w- and of course, th- his involvement with Martin Luther King and the Southern-

Abby Phillip 19:12 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 19:13 ... uh, uh, Christian Leadership Conference was also important, but he was really one of the first. I remember being struck by, um, his, um, talking about economic issues over-

Abby Phillip 19:23 Mm-hmm.

Kara Swisher 19:24 ... even though he's think- thought of as a racial figure. You know, I mean, like, uh, that kinda thing, the way he was portrayed. He had one quote, um, and I'm gonna read. I found it. "When we change the race problem into a class fight between the haves and have-nots, then we're going to have a new ball game."

Abby Phillip 19:37 Yep.

Kara Swisher 19:37 I mean, I think he clocked that. Same thing with Sanders, same thing with a lot-

Abby Phillip 19:41 Totally.

Kara Swisher 19:41 ... you know, even AOC in some ways. I mean, it, that's, uh, and, and Mamdani really in a lot of ways.

Abby Phillip 19:47 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 19:47 Um, and it-

Abby Phillip 19:47 I mean, people misrepresent him as this person who's, like, all about race, but when you-

Kara Swisher 19:51 No.

Abby Phillip 19:51 ... look at his actual campaigns, he was actually arguing that the real commonality between people should be their interests-

Kara Swisher 19:59 Class.

Abby Phillip 19:59 ... cla- their class interests, their economic interests.

Kara Swisher 20:02 Yeah.

Abby Phillip 20:02 He was rallying farmers in Missouri and in-

Kara Swisher 20:04 Mm-hmm.

Abby Phillip 20:04 ... in rural states and in Iowa-

Kara Swisher 20:07 Mm-hmm.

Abby Phillip 20:07 ... um, on the basis of, "What we have in common is our need to be treated fairly economically." That was the basis of his campaign, not a racial appeal, which is contra how he was con- conveyed to the public during his campaigns.

Kara Swisher 20:25 Right, because he did suffer from egomaniacal-

Abby Phillip 20:27 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 20:27 ... you know, and look at me. You know, everything he did was sort of ... And he was a fantastic-looking person, right? You wanted to look at him, um, in a lot of ways, but an important figure. I'm excited. We'll, we'll talk about it more on On-

Abby Phillip 20:37 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 20:37 ... when it comes out. Um, hopefully we'll have a longer interview about it. Um, but we've got a lot to get to today, including Gavin Newsom trolling Trump and the Costco abortion pill controversy, among other things. But first,

Kara Swisher 20:48 President Trump is set to meet Ukraine's President Zelenskyy and European leaders at the White House as we record on Monday. This follows Trump's summit with Putin in Alaska on Friday, where he rolled out the red carpet, but no deal was made. Trump seems to be siding with Putin right now after going in not siding with him, saying over the weekend, "The best way to end the war is to go directly to a peace agreement, not negotiate a ceasefire," which he was talking about. He's also telling Ukraine to give up on getting back Russia-uh, annexed Crimea or joining NATO. Um, you were part of CNN's live coverage of the Alaska summit. I'd just love your thoughts, and the last time Zelenskyy was in the White House, things got pretty ugly. Uh, Vance kinda trolled him. Um, he's bringing backup this time, um, and others. Uh, he may wear a suit, which is so inane, but there you have it. They were making comments about his outfit, which was a military outfit. Um, talk to me a little bit about this. E- even though it, it's gonna go by the time we do, but how are you going into this? How do you look at it, especially from the Alaska summit?

Abby Phillip 21:45 I think it's extraordinary that this is even happening. I mean, uh, think about the fact that you have a, a phalanx of European leaders getting on planes at a moment's notice to flock to Washington to give Zelenskyy backup in this-

Kara Swisher 22:00 Right.

Abby Phillip 22:00 ... meeting with Trump. That's a level of concern that I think some people say hasn't been demonstrated since 9/11. Um, and it reflects a deep worry about Trump's decision-making and his need to be surrounded by a certain point of view in order to come to what they view as the right conclusion. So, so, I think that alone, I mean, says a lot. And I, I think that ... You know, I said this on Friday. I mean, Trump really believes that he can get Putin to the desired outcome by simply treating him right, by giving him the red carpet, by giving him, you know, the military welcome, by the smiles, the round of applause, all of that. And-

Kara Swisher 22:54 Which is what he wants, but go ahe-

Abby Phillip 22:56 Which, right, which would work for him, but Putin doesn't really care about those things.

Kara Swisher 23:01 Mm-hmm.

Abby Phillip 23:01 He wants what he wants-

Kara Swisher 23:02 Very, very important.

Abby Phillip 23:03 ... in the interest of Russian empire, which is what he wants to reestablish. And so, I, I still think we don't know terribly, uh, much about what was talked about and de- decided. There was some talk of security guarantees that do not involve NATO. So, the obvious question is, what does that really look like? But I think that the devil is 100, 1,000% in the details here, because-

Kara Swisher 23:28 Which is not Trump's strong suit.

Abby Phillip 23:29 Not ... Exactly. I, I do think that's the problem, is that Putin is worried about the details. Trump, not so much. And the, the details also become insanely important to Ukraine, because they have been in a situation before where they've been given security guarantees and it's just ... Th- they've still been bulldozed as a result of it. Putin also wants to divide the United States and Europe. So, it is also in Putin's interest to disentangle Ukraine's security from Europe and NATO. And so, it, it does work in Putin's favor to say, "Well, we'll give you security guarantees, but it's not gonna involve NATO." So, w- will that fly? Something tells me no, it will not-

Kara Swisher 24:12 Right.

Abby Phillip 24:12 ... because that is-

Kara Swisher 24:13 Because he will, he will say, "We'll do it," and then won't do it, right, won't send-

Abby Phillip 24:16 Yes.

Kara Swisher 24:17 ... US troops A-

Abby Phillip 24:17 And e-

Kara Swisher 24:17 ... per se.

Abby Phillip 24:18 Exactly. Exactly. I also just wonder, I mean, how does the America First crowd feel about Trump giving security guarantees unilaterally-... perhaps. Like, are we gonna be sending troops?

Kara Swisher 24:31 Right, that's the thing, that they do not want that.

Abby Phillip 24:33 If Russia invades?

Kara Swisher 24:34 Yeah.

Abby Phillip 24:34 Because that's literally the thing that, that the America first crowd said that they did not want. So, I, I think that, um, there are a lot of words being spoken-

Kara Swisher 24:46 Yeah.

Abby Phillip 24:46 ... right now, but, you know, time will tell. I mean, I think it's very important that-

Kara Swisher 24:50 What was your takeaway from the summit itself? Obviously, the Trump people are trying to spin it as something positive, but nobody is.

Abby Phillip 24:56 I-

Kara Swisher 24:56 There's not even enough coverage.

Abby Phillip 24:58 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 24:58 Even on Fox News.

Abby Phillip 24:58 I, I mean, I think it was not much. It was much ado about nothing, and that was, that was told by the way that they came out of the meeting. They, they came out of the meeting. They said almost nothing. Um, there was, there was no sort of paper. There was no joint agreement. Neither... Putin and Trump were saying different things. Then over the weekend, you had Marco Rubio also downplaying it, saying, "Hey, we have a long way to go."

Kara Swisher 25:27 Right.

Abby Phillip 25:28 And, and the ceasefire thing is super important. Putin wants to continue to pummel Ukraine-

Kara Swisher 25:35 Right.

Abby Phillip 25:35 ... while he spins his wheels on an end to the war, and that's what Trump is allowing him to get.

Kara Swisher 25:43 Right.

Abby Phillip 25:43 So-

Kara Swisher 25:44 Why?

Abby Phillip 25:45 ... the wheel-

Kara Swisher 25:45 Why did he shift?

Abby Phillip 25:46 He's gonna, he's gonna... Because that's what Putin wants.

Kara Swisher 25:50 Mm-hmm.

Abby Phillip 25:50 And-

Kara Swisher 25:50 But why did Trump shift-

Abby Phillip 25:52 I think-

Kara Swisher 25:52 ... in th- in that meeting? Nobody knows.

Abby Phillip 25:55 Trump... Right, but, you know, the readout from the call with Zelenskyy seemed to point to what is happening here, is that Putin is convincing Trump of a particular military out, um, reality on the ground that Zelenskyy disputes.

Kara Swisher 26:12 Which is we're winning. Mm-hmm.

Abby Phillip 26:13 Which is that they're winning, right? And Zelenskyy disputes that. And my question is, Tr- Trump has a whole military-

Kara Swisher 26:19 Right.

Abby Phillip 26:19 ... and a national security apparatus-

Kara Swisher 26:21 Tell him.

Abby Phillip 26:21 ... and an intelligence apparatus who he can ask about what is happening on the ground. So, I'm confused about why Trump would not ask those experts about what's happening and not take Putin's word for it, and why he would regurgitate Putin's view of the war to Zelenskyy without filtering it through what we know to be true about what's happening on the ground.

Kara Swisher 26:47 It still reminds you of the hold that Putin has on Trump, you know, over and over again, which seem to get the same result every time he walks in a room with him and comes out, and he comes out different, as if his brain has been fried or something.

Abby Phillip 26:59 I think Trump is super impressed, by the way, Kara, by Putin.

Kara Swisher 27:02 Yeah.

Abby Phillip 27:02 That's... I think that's-

Kara Swisher 27:03 Got it.

Abby Phillip 27:03 ... a big part of it. There's-

Kara Swisher 27:04 Yeah.

Abby Phillip 27:04 There's... He's just very impressed by him. He thinks that he's got it figured out, that he's-

Kara Swisher 27:08 Think he wishes he could.

Abby Phillip 27:08 He's arranged Russia and society in a way that he admires.

Kara Swisher 27:12 Mm-hmm. True.

Abby Phillip 27:12 He... I think Trump really just thinks Putin is doing it better than anybody else.

Kara Swisher 27:16 Right.

Abby Phillip 27:17 And, um, he's not concerned about the moral quandary of Putin-

Kara Swisher 27:21 Right.

Abby Phillip 27:21 ... killing dissidents and-

Kara Swisher 27:23 Mm-hmm. Killing armies.

Abby Phillip 27:24 ... perhaps doing war crimes and all of that stuff. It's, it's an admiration-

Kara Swisher 27:28 Right.

Abby Phillip 27:28 ... at, at the heart of it.

Kara Swisher 27:29 And he doesn't admire someone like Zelenskyy.

Abby Phillip 27:32 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 27:32 Um, e,

Kara Swisher 27:33 by the way, First Lady Melania Trump entered the chat, oddly. She wrote what's being called a peace letter to Putin that Trump hand-delivered at the summit. In the letter, she tells Putin it's time to protect children and says he can single-handedly restore their, uh, melodic laughter. It was a strange letter, but I see her point. Some people are wondering if the letter was AI-generated. They don't know. Um, it's about the b- children that Russia has taken from Ukraine and are bringing to Russia. It's really quite a heinous act on behalf of, uh, of, uh, of the Russians. Um, a- any thoughts on this? Were you surprised?

Abby Phillip 28:06 I'm not surprised, no, 'cause I, I, I think this is how Melania likes to engage in these things. She picks an aspect of it that she thinks is sort of universal, which I think this probably is, and weighs in, um, and I think it's, it's fine. I think it's, it's good and it's nice. D- do I think it matters? No.

Kara Swisher 28:30 No.

Abby Phillip 28:30 But it-

Kara Swisher 28:30 Yeah, she's somewhat anti-Putin from what I can read, that she's the one shifting him over a little more against... She's obviously from countries-

Abby Phillip 28:38 P- perhaps.

Kara Swisher 28:38 ... where this... Yeah.

Abby Phillip 28:39 Right, yeah. I mean, I think that would make sense, just like given her background, but, but I also think that... I mean, she has a lot of influence over her husband, so-

Kara Swisher 28:49 She does.

Abby Phillip 28:50 ... if it, if it were me, I think that's probably the best place to exert influence, is with the President of the United States.

Kara Swisher 28:58 Yeah, presumably. Yeah, I was sort of surprised, but it was a strange letter, but (laughs) I was like, "Okay, sure."

Abby Phillip 29:04 Okay. Yeah.

Kara Swisher 29:04 Um, we'll see what happens. Um, talk

Kara Swisher 29:06 a little bit about, uh, this takeover of Washington. You don't live there any longer, but, um, he's... Republican governors from three states are sending National Guard troops to DC, joining already 800 mobilized in the Capitol. The Wall Street Journal is reporting that Guard troops may soon be carrying weapons, which is frightening for a DC resident-

Abby Phillip 29:22 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 29:22 ... like myself, a reversal from the original orders, but the Trump administration has backed off its offic- uh, original push to take over the police force after the city filed an emergency restraining order, calling Trump's actions a hostile takeover. It's been one week since Trump announced the takeover. He's obviously putting, uh, troops on display in places where there's not high crime, um, uh, such as at Union Station or on 14th Str- I mean, there is, there's petty crime on 14th Street really for the most part, but what do you think about what's happening there, uh, as a former DC resident, and what it represents?

Abby Phillip 29:55 (sighs) Um-

Kara Swisher 29:58 (laughs) Big long sigh.

Abby Phillip 29:59 Yeah, a long sigh. I mean, I... You know, Kara, I was there on Friday, um, briefly, very briefly, and I don't know if you feel this way. I don't, I don't know how recently you were... 'cause you travel so much, but I was shocked by how quiet and almost deserted the city felt. In-

Kara Swisher 30:19 Well, it could be summer, but yeah.

Abby Phillip 30:21 It could be the summer, but it was striking, and then... So, I say that, and I... That was my gut feeling. I was like, "This is odd." I was in the middle of Chinatown. There were no people. Um-

Kara Swisher 30:32 Yeah, restaurants are down-

Abby Phillip 30:33 And so-

Kara Swisher 30:33 ... restaurant reservations-

Abby Phillip 30:34 Right, so then-

Kara Swisher 30:35 ... tourism.

Abby Phillip 30:36 There's this reporting about the, a dramatic drop, 25%, 33% in restaurant, um, reservations and foot traffic in bars. Bars are ... You know, these businesses are just saying, "This is totally unsustainable." And, look, I, we will know more later, but l- j- I'm starting there just because th- the premise of this whole thing is that DC residents want this deep down inside because they wanna feel safer so that they can go about their lives without fear or threat of violence against them.

Kara Swisher 31:09 Yeah, we don't fear that, but go ahead. Yeah.

Abby Phillip 31:10 But the reality of it is that people are avoiding being in the city right now.

Kara Swisher 31:16 Mm-hmm.

Abby Phillip 31:16 Because nobody wants to live in a society that is militarized.

Kara Swisher 31:20 Right, no.

Abby Phillip 31:20 They don't.

Kara Swisher 31:21 I don't like going to countries that are militar- when you go to countries-

Abby Phillip 31:23 Nobody likes going to countries that are militarized. When we travel, I've been to places that are mil- more militarized than here and you see the tanks in the street and the, the, the guards with-

Kara Swisher 31:34 Guns.

Abby Phillip 31:34 ... you know, with the, with the, um, semi-automatic weap- long guns and all that stuff. It does not make you feel more safe.

Kara Swisher 31:41 No.

Abby Phillip 31:41 It makes you feel surveilled.

Kara Swisher 31:44 Right.

Abby Phillip 31:44 And I think that th- th- the, the, the proof is in the pudding. So even if you take their premise that DC is so unsafe that there's a quiet support for this in, among people who live there, I think the proof is that that's not the case.

Kara Swisher 32:01 No.

Abby Phillip 32:01 'Cause otherwise they would be running around like l- you know-

Kara Swisher 32:05 Whoo. Now we can finally have sushi.

Abby Phillip 32:07 ... overwhelming the city with ... Yeah, now we can finally do all the things. No. They're avoiding being in parts of the city. That's the first thing. And I think the second thing is that I ... DC is th- the place that they are doing it because they can. And that's the challenge with DC is that truly the, the, the citizens of the District of Columbia have very few rights compared to other people in this country.

Kara Swisher 32:30 None. No voting rights. Right.

Abby Phillip 32:32 None, vir- virtually. And he-

Kara Swisher 32:33 And our representative seems to be-

Abby Phillip 32:35 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 32:35 ... aged and not speaking out, but, or-

Abby Phillip 32:38 And h- and so, uh, but even if they were, I mean, he can do this.

Kara Swisher 32:41 Yeah.

Abby Phillip 32:42 He can do this. And so, should he do it? Probably not, but he can. And, and I, and, and as you pointed out, I mean, where are they sending these troops? It's not to the places where the crime is actually happening. And they're also predominantly doing immigration arrests, just pulling, um, undocumented immigrants from mopeds and-

Kara Swisher 33:02 Yeah.

Abby Phillip 33:02 ... delivering, um, iced coffees-

Kara Swisher 33:04 That was unbelievable.

Abby Phillip 33:04 ... from Bluestone Lane. So, I just think the reality versus the rhetoric is so stark here. I want DC to be safe. I think crime is absolutely a problem in this city. But I also think that the people who need protecting, pro- protecting are not being protected. And this is-

Kara Swisher 33:21 Well, that's 'cause it's a ... It's also racial, right? It's like-

Abby Phillip 33:24 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 33:24 ... scary city run by Black people. Like I think that's a lot of it, like the visuals is what they're going for in some fashion, and then doing nothing.

Abby Phillip 33:32 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 33:32 Like they're at Union Station. I mean, maybe at 1:00 in the morning Union Station is a little sketchy, but otherwise not at all. It's a, it's a very strange thing. I don't know where it's gonna go and we'll see if he extends it to other cities-

Abby Phillip 33:43 You know-

Kara Swisher 33:43 ... like New York, if Montag remains.

Abby Phillip 33:44 But ha- have you also noticed, Kara, like I mean-

Kara Swisher 33:46 Mm-hmm.

Abby Phillip 33:46 ... the thing that I think we should keep an eye on with this is th- the videos of the, the masked agents.

Kara Swisher 33:53 Ugh.

Abby Phillip 33:53 Um, the ones who ... There was the one that went viral over the weekend where-

Kara Swisher 33:58 Yeah.

Abby Phillip 33:58 ... one of them said, you know, "Liberals have already ruined America."

Kara Swisher 34:04 Yeah.

Abby Phillip 34:04 The, the degree to which Trump has successfully turned immigration agents, now the Secret Service, um, you know, HSI, which typically are tasked with some of the most sensitive, you know, federal law enforcement investigations, into his personal police force-

Kara Swisher 34:22 Yeah, no, and he's creating his own Stasi.

Abby Phillip 34:23 ... that are ideologically aligned with him-

Kara Swisher 34:25 Fasc-

Abby Phillip 34:25 ... I think is one of the most important developments in the last-

Kara Swisher 34:28 Agreed.

Abby Phillip 34:28 ... several months.

Kara Swisher 34:29 I agree.

Abby Phillip 34:29 And it's gone almost entirely unchecked and it will only-

Kara Swisher 34:33 Yeah.

Abby Phillip 34:33 ... be exacerbated as we go down the road.

Kara Swisher 34:35 Yeah, I don't think it's a long trip, Abby. I think these people-

Abby Phillip 34:38 Oh, yeah.

Kara Swisher 34:38 ... are already n- down that road (laughs) in a lot of ways.

Abby Phillip 34:40 That's probably true.

Kara Swisher 34:41 But wearing of the mask is he's creating his own personal Stasi and that's what's really disturbing, and it's gonna be hard to put them back in the box, for sure. Um, okay, let's go on a quick break. When we come back, how Gavin Newsom has become the ultimate Trump troll.

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Kara Swisher 35:58 Abby, we're back. California Governor Gavin Newsom can play (laughs) President Trump's social media game too. He's quite good at it. Newsom's press office, uh, social media feed has been focused on capital letters and AI memes mocking the president's tactics and it's winning the attention game. The strategy is part of Newsom's response to Trump-backed redistricting plan in Texas. That's where it began. The California governor's responded by saying he would pursue a special election to redraw California's congressional maps to offset Republican gains. It's a dicey thing to do 'cause other states could also participate. A post from, uh, Newsom's office reads, in all caps, "Donald Trump, the lowest polling president in recent history, this is your second-to-last warning. Stand down now or California will counterstrike," in parentheses, " (legally) to destroy your illegal crooked maps and red states." Meme posts include comparing Stephen Miller to Lord Voldemort, responding to a photo, uh, of a rainbow over Marine One with "Happy Pride," an image of Newsom on the cover of Time Magazine saying, "Long Live the King." Meanwhile, Texas Democrats who fled the state to stall redistricting plans have returned. The state legislature wrapped its first special session last week with Governor Greg Abbott quickly calling for a second special session.Talk about what Newsom's doing here in your thoughts. You know, the, the right is trying very hard to say he's cringy and this and that. I think he's very funny. Um, it's getting a lot of attention and certainly a lot of views, et cetera. But what, what is happening here from your perspective with him, and has he break the code on how to break through in the Trump era?

Abby Phillip 37:22 You know, I, I, my views on Newsom are that (sighs) he, he's trying to get attention and he's getting attention. And I think, I think that you enjoy it. I, I'm neutral on it. I don't... It, it's all just trolling, fine. My filter on some of this stuff is, what's the actual electoral impact? Because you can rally the base, you can make Democrats... You can tickle their funny bone with this stuff.

Kara Swisher 37:49 Mm-hmm.

Abby Phillip 37:49 And-

Kara Swisher 37:50 Good point.

Abby Phillip 37:50 ... that's great. But at the end of the day, Democrats need to start winning elections.

Kara Swisher 37:56 Yeah.

Abby Phillip 37:56 So, after all of this is done, what I want to know is what are they actually doing to change the electoral reality in the country? Because that's the ultimately the only thing that matters. I mean, on the redistricting bit of it, is it a race to a bottom? Ab- absolutely. Um, it was, it's interesting that, um, Arnold Schwarzenegger is, like, very much opposed to this.

Kara Swisher 38:21 Yeah, he had a... When he was governor, he passed something that could, they couldn't do this, he was trying to get to-

Abby Phillip 38:25 Yeah, and, and has made it more difficult. And, and even within that paradigm, you know, Gavin Newsom is still trying to actually... I mean, it's the hard way. You have to take it to a referendum in order to get this to happen. So, I mean, look, if he's able to take it to a referendum and get a, get approval from voters to redistrict, then by... I, I guess by all means. But I do think, and I see this a lot, Democrats do get held to a higher sort of almost, like, moral standard than Republicans do on stuff like this. Um, there's always the question of, why aren't you moving to the middle? Why aren't you trying to appeal to moderates? Meanwhile, the, the fact of the matter is, is that Trumpism and the rise of MAGA has occurred by completely ignoring this, even the mildest concept of moderation. I mean, Trump and, and Republicans have gone as farther to the right than they have been-

Kara Swisher 39:23 Right, they don't care about-

Abby Phillip 39:24 ... in a very long time.

Kara Swisher 39:25 ... the RINOs at all.

Abby Phillip 39:26 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 39:26 They don't care.

Abby Phillip 39:26 So, I do think that it's worthwhile, Democrats saying, "Okay, let's, let's really address the desires of voters here." And if this is what their voters are asking for, I think that, that politics is the business of, um, you know, adding and not subtracting, so building support for, for people, with people for the things that you want to accomplish. And I think Democrats probably do need to start listening to their voters more and I'm not sure how many of them are asking for this sort of, like, mushy middle.

Kara Swisher 39:58 Mm-hmm.

Abby Phillip 39:58 They're asking for people to stand up-

Kara Swisher 39:59 I would agree.

Abby Phillip 39:59 ... for something.

Kara Swisher 40:00 Right.

Abby Phillip 40:01 And what that thing is, I think they're gonna have to figure out. But they do need to start standing up for something as opposed to trying to be-

Kara Swisher 40:07 So, com-

Abby Phillip 40:07 ... in this weird, like, not, neither here nor there place.

Kara Swisher 40:10 Neither place. Yeah, we're supposed to be real nice and the others can do whatever they want, in other words. Um, so when you, when you look at the Texas Democrats standing up, which they did, they fled the state to stall these plans. It does... May not work, um, but they did it. That's sort of a version of leadership. And then what Newsom's doing, how do you compare them? Like, what is... Do Democrats have to be doing things like this w- that show some level of backbone? 'Cause a lot of complaints you hear from Democrats are, "Everyone's a noodle," like Chuck Schumer or what, what- whoever it happens to be, noodles, noodles, noodles everywhere and they are kind of like this. Do you think it pays off from a, from a political point of view for Newsom or these Texas Democrats?

Abby Phillip 40:49 I, I think the Texas Democrats and it's an, it's an exercise in futility, but there was also a precedent for doing it. There was an attempt to do this very same thing in Texas, um, in the early 2000s. It, they, they, they did the same thing, they left the state. Uh, but ultimately the court sided with Texas Republicans in the redistricting fight. So they knew that this was going to end the way that it is ending. But, but more, you know, I think if they want to make a statement by leaving the state, then fine. I think that's totally fine to do. And I think that there is some value in showing your voters that you care enough to put yourself on the line, even if it's going to end-

Kara Swisher 41:29 If you-

Abby Phillip 41:29 ... a certain way.

Kara Swisher 41:31 Right.

Abby Phillip 41:31 On the Newsom part of it, y- y- I mean, sa- same thing really. I mean, Democrats have to figure out how they fight back, and they may need to fight back by simply fighting fire with fire. But, um, because I don't think that by Democrats sort of mut- uh, unilaterally disarming, you're gonna resolve the problem of gerrymandering in this country. Gerrymandering needs to be resolved, but it's not gonna be resolved by one side just kind of laying down and getting rolled over-

Kara Swisher 42:00 Right, right.

Abby Phillip 42:00 ... while the other side gerrymanders, um, the place into oblivion.

Kara Swisher 42:03 Right, although some Republican state governors have resisted in New Hampshire and elsewhere. They don't want to b- be pulled down into this muck but they might, probably will be-

Abby Phillip 42:11 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 42:11 ... presumably.

Abby Phillip 42:12 And, and, and, and we should be clear that the, some of the most gerrymandered states are not just Republican states, places like Illinois are p- heavily gerrymand- gerrymandered. So i- it's not to say that gerrymandering is the domain of one party over another, although Republicans do utilize it heavily, especially in Southern states. But, um, d- and, and I would also add the Democrats nationally have been way more willing to say, "We would like to take this off the table for everyone, ourselves included," whereas Republicans have not said that. And so, there is-

Kara Swisher 42:47 But he needs it for the midterms-

Abby Phillip 42:48 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 42:48 ... which aren't going great for him.

Abby Phillip 42:50 And they don't, and, and they don't want to not use, utilize gerrymandering.

Kara Swisher 42:53 Yeah.

Abby Phillip 42:53 Period.

Kara Swisher 42:53 They like it.

Abby Phillip 42:54 So, so I, I mean, in this moment, I think it makes sense what Gavin Newsom is doing. If he's in... And, and I think it helps him actually.

Kara Swisher 43:04 But you're neutral, it's interesting. You're like, "I'm, I'm not amused by-

Abby Phillip 43:07 I mean, look.

Kara Swisher 43:08 ... Gavin." (laughs)

Abby Phillip 43:09 I think, I think the, the Twitter-

Kara Swisher 43:11 Yeah.

Abby Phillip 43:11 ... uh, ex, whatever, I guess I should call it ex. The ex game, shenanigans do not move me at all.

Kara Swisher 43:19 Do not, yeah.

Abby Phillip 43:19 Like I find them to be very unimpressive, not important, does not matter to the average person, but it tickles people's fancy, so great, go for it.

Kara Swisher 43:29 Yeah. Yeah.

Abby Phillip 43:30 It's giving him a lot of impressions on social media. Great, go for it. But what I will-

Kara Swisher 43:33 Does that help his presidential chances from your perspective?

Abby Phillip 43:36 No.

Kara Swisher 43:36 'Cause that's-

Abby Phillip 43:37 I-

Kara Swisher 43:37 That's starting now, right?

Abby Phillip 43:40 That's another discussion for another day.

Kara Swisher 43:42 Okay. (laughs)

Abby Phillip 43:42 But I will just say that I don't think that your presidential chances are related to your social media clout.

Kara Swisher 43:49 Yeah.

Abby Phillip 43:50 It's not-

Kara Swisher 43:50 Though he does look good a- striding an eagle-

Abby Phillip 43:52 ... related.

Kara Swisher 43:52 ... with a chest, he doesn't look. (laughs)

Abby Phillip 43:53 Yeah. You are, you will become well-known, but that doesn't-

Kara Swisher 43:56 Yeah.

Abby Phillip 43:56 ... mean that you are more likely to-

Kara Swisher 43:58 Correct.

Abby Phillip 43:59 ... be elected president. And so-

Kara Swisher 44:01 Mm-hmm.

Abby Phillip 44:01 ... that's the other th- part of this that I think is why I'm kind of super neutral about it, is that I just feel like people often mistake those two things, is does this person go viral on social media versus can they actually bank votes? And those things are not the same, and pe- uh, the folks who, um, are interested in Democrats beating Republicans should pay very close attention to th- to that distinction because that's also-

Kara Swisher 44:28 Fair point.

Abby Phillip 44:28 ... one of the reasons why they didn't see Kamala Harris' loss coming.

Kara Swisher 44:31 Right.

Abby Phillip 44:31 Because they falsely believed that chatter on social media was related to-

Kara Swisher 44:36 Right.

Abby Phillip 44:36 ... votes and it, and it's not.

Kara Swisher 44:38 So it's not. It's not. Snakes on a Plane, that's what they're called.

Abby Phillip 44:40 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 44:40 Um, which was very popular and then didn't do very well. It's a movie because it was a bad movie. Has to be a good movie.

Abby Phillip 44:44 (laughs) But it's so iconic and it's-

Kara Swisher 44:46 Yeah. Yeah.

Abby Phillip 44:46 It is so iconic. (laughs)

Kara Swisher 44:48 Yeah, still has to be a good movie, that's what I say. All right Abby, uh, let's go on a quick break. When we come back, the Trump Administration's plan to rank companies. Support for Pivot comes from Grüns. If you've ever done a deep internet dive trying to discover different nutrition solutions, you've likely had the thought, "Surely there's a way to improve my skin, gut health, immunity, brain fog, without offending my taste buds." Well, there is. It's called Grüns. Grüns are a convenient, comprehensive formula packed into a daily snack pack of gummies. It's not a multivitamin, a greens gummy, or a prebiotic. It's all of those things and then some for a fraction of the price. In a Grüns daily snack pack, you get more than 20 vitamins and minerals, six grams of prebiotic fiber, plus more than 60 ingredients. They include nutrient-dense and whole foods, all of which will help you out in different ways. For example, Grüns has six times the gut health ingredients compared to the leading greens powders. It contains biotin and niacinamide, which helps with thicker hair, nails, and skin health. They also contain mushrooms that can help with brain function. And of course, you're probably familiar with vitamin C and how great it is for your immune system. On top of all, Grüns are vegan and free of dairy, nuts, and gluten. Get up to 52% off when you go to gruns.co and use the code PIVOT. That's G-R-U-N-S dot C-O using the code PIVOT for 52% off.

Kara Swisher 46:15 Abby, we're back with one more story. The Trump Administration has reportedly, uh, created a scoring system to rank 553 companies and trade associations based on support and promotion of Trump's Big Beautiful Bill. Um, factors in the rating include social media posts, press releases, ads, and attendance in White House events, very similar what they're doing to people who are immigrants, looking at their social media, looking at them, ca- uh, and law firms and, and universities, et cetera. Companies that had the honor of being labeled highly include Uber, uh, DoorDash, United, and AT&T. And one company may be looking to work its way up the rankings. Costco announced it wouldn't dispense mifepristone, the abortion medication, at its pharmacies. The company said the decision was made due to lack of demand. Uh, groups from both the left and right have been pla- uh, placing political pressure on Costco. Should we expect even more corporate sucking up a response this ranking? Why not? The law firms have and others have, uh, other administrations obviously have corporate favorites and they play it more quietly. Um, h- how do you look at this ranking? It's sort of the list, you're on our list kind of thing, which Trump has done any number of ways with other groups of people.

Abby Phillip 47:20 Yeah, I mean, uh, it- it's not surprising at all. I mean, I, I know many people who, um, work on K Street and they've been operating in this environment since the very beginning with Trump where there's a clear s- there has always been a clear sense that you have to prove your loyalty to Trump by, um, things that you say publicly, things that you say privately, um, your willingness to put money behind the things that you do. They, that's how they've been operating from the beginning. So, now we just know that there's like a spreadsheet that they're using to keep track. (laughs)

Kara Swisher 47:52 Right, yeah. Yeah.

Abby Phillip 47:53 But, but the truth of the matter is, is that, um... And the way I look at this is that corporations, um, especially multinational ones, which is what we're talking about here in most cases, they operate all over the world. They operate in free countries and they operate in unfree countries. They operate with strongmen and they operate with democratically elected leaders. And so, they have been doing this dance-

Kara Swisher 48:15 Perfect.

Abby Phillip 48:15 ... in other parts of the world for a very long time. They are not new to this, so they know how to operate in Trump's America. Their willingness to very quickly adjust to a White House that A, wants loyalty, B, wants control... I mean, Trump doesn't just want them to say nice things. He also wants to own shares of private corporations.

Kara Swisher 48:38 In- yeah, Intel and-

Abby Phillip 48:38 He wants to tell them how to operate their boards.

Kara Swisher 48:40 ... Midoobay.

Abby Phillip 48:40 He wants to hire their economists. He wants to... All of it. He wants his hand in all of it.

Kara Swisher 48:47 Right.

Abby Phillip 48:48 But they know how to deal with that and they're, and they... And I think if people thought that corporate America was gonna be like the place where-

Kara Swisher 48:54 Yeah. (laughs)

Abby Phillip 48:54 ... there was gonna be resistance to Trump, you are not paying attention.

Kara Swisher 48:58 Last place.

Abby Phillip 48:58 Yeah, no.

Kara Swisher 48:58 Yeah.

Abby Phillip 48:58 It's the last place, right? They-

Kara Swisher 49:00 It's particularly unctuous and, and repulsive, but you know.

Abby Phillip 49:04 It's... They, they have a fiduciary responsibility-

Kara Swisher 49:07 Yep, I've said that.

Abby Phillip 49:07 ... to their shareholders to do what they need to do in order to-... to, to sail through this era of American history. And they-

Kara Swisher 49:17 Yeah, like Tim Cook getting that, getting that statue, everyone was so upset-

Abby Phillip 49:20 Totally.

Kara Swisher 49:20 ... I was like, "Are you kidding?"

Abby Phillip 49:21 Totally.

Kara Swisher 49:22 Of course he did.

Abby Phillip 49:22 And they are, they are going to do it. If you think that there is not a thing that they're willing to do, you are wrong.

Kara Swisher 49:28 Yeah, that's true.

Abby Phillip 49:28 Totally wrong.

Kara Swisher 49:29 Yeah.

Abby Phillip 49:29 They will do it. All of it. They will say, "Yes, Mr. Trump, you can own shares of our company. Yes, Mr. Trump, you can select members of our board. Yes, Mr. Trump, we will stop, um, utilizing hiring practices that we don't like."

Kara Swisher 49:45 The DEI, yeah.

Abby Phillip 49:45 All of it.

Kara Swisher 49:46 Yeah.

Abby Phillip 49:46 They will do all of it.

Kara Swisher 49:47 Yeah.

Abby Phillip 49:47 And, um, they will do it because they know that it's for a time, maybe four years. Maybe something else will come after that, but they just have to weather this storm and maximize the shareholder value, and they will do that.

Kara Swisher 50:01 Yeah. I think you're 100% right. I, uh, it, it, it... Certain groups will resist, certain companies will, but Costco is quite a liberal company and resisted DEI, uh-

Abby Phillip 50:11 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 50:11 ... pushing on DEI. Um, they may be telling the truth about lack of demand or they just are like, "Ugh, this is just causing us so much of a headache, we'll just do it." Uh, but-

Abby Phillip 50:20 I wonder if they're afraid also of lawsuits, because I think there's a little bit of a... With the Mifepristone stuff, I, I do think that there is a sort of almost like, uh... And it's different from the DEI thing. There's like a threat of-

Kara Swisher 50:32 Yeah.

Abby Phillip 50:32 ... you know, lawsuits about the safe... Even though the, the Mifre- Mifepristone is a safe drug, there are these organizations that have been threatening, um-

Kara Swisher 50:41 Right.

Abby Phillip 50:41 ... on safety grounds to go-

Kara Swisher 50:43 Right.

Abby Phillip 50:43 ... after companies that provide it to patients. And so-

Kara Swisher 50:47 Yeah.

Abby Phillip 50:47 ... there are layers to this with the medical stuff that I think are different.

Kara Swisher 50:51 Yeah. You can see, you can be in those rooms like, "Oh, let's just get this off our plate."

Abby Phillip 50:55 Yeah. Yeah.

Kara Swisher 50:55 "Let's give him a gold statue. It's fine. Whatever."

Abby Phillip 50:58 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 50:58 Um, these are small little things to them. They aren't ultimately, because it creates a s- it feel- it feels very Putinesque, right? It feels, um, you know, he doesn't have to, like, kill them to get them to do these things the way Putin does, of course, with his enemies. Um, but it's a version of that. And don't be surprised. For companies, I'm not, uh... And some people I'm more surprised of, by others, but last week I was talking to Rachel about university pre- It's not like they were the, an ad for tolerance and, and anti- and, you know, wokeism, any of those university presidents ever. Like if you've ever met one. Um, including-

Abby Phillip 51:32 No.

Kara Swisher 51:32 ... corporate owners, cor- corporate owners of, uh, media and things like that. You've seen it all over the place. Um, all right, Abby, one more quick break. We'll be back for wins and fails.

Kara Swisher 51:42 Okay, Abby, let's hear some wins and fails. Would you like to go first or I can very quickly? Whatever you want.

Abby Phillip 51:46 You can go first.

Kara Swisher 51:48 Um, I think my, um, my win is Steve Wozniak. He's the co-founder of Apple, uh, Computer with Steve Jobs. Um, he, uh, he made an appearance in a thread about his lawsuit against YouTube over internet scammers using his likeness, which happens by the way to you, Abby, and to me and everyone else all, all across the internet. He said, "I gave all my Apple wealth away because wealth and power are not what I live for. I have a lot of fun and happiness. I funded a lot of important museums and arts groups in San Jose, the city of my birth, and they named a street after me for being good." He liked that. I remember him telling me about it. Um, he, he, he has about $10 million, I think, he says, of all the money he's made. Um, and he's always been like this. And I just like a reminder of someone like this, um, in this sort of get- get- while-the-getting's-good kind of thing. He's been a... He is a very happy, jolly person. Um, and I find it really nice that he... You know, there are other kinds of billionaires, they're not all the same or were very wealthy people. And he certainly has... His impact has been massive on, uh... So Steve Jobs gets all the attention, but Steve Wogn- Wozniak-

Abby Phillip 52:50 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 52:50 ... was also critical to Apple, which we all use today. And so I really like that. Um, my fail is, uh, something I talked about with Rachel last week was the name Versant, um, which is the new company about to, um, come out. And we were joking it sounds like, uh, you know, a medication that would be advertised on late night cable, uh, to resi- resolve your wa- your rash, and results may vary. Um, but they're, they're now having to change MSNBC, which when it was started, it was Microsoft NBC. That's where it came from. I was there when it was started, uh, when they had that deal a long time ago. Um, now it's changed to MS, MSNOW, which is short for MySource News Opinion World. What? Uh, Semafor's Josh Billinson said, "MSNOW sounds like a short-lived Windows operating system for the early 2000s-"

Abby Phillip 53:38 (laughs)

Kara Swisher 53:38 "... that needlessly redesigned too much and failed to, to be adapted by a mass critical..." (laughs)

Abby Phillip 53:42 This, this is bad, Karen.

Kara Swisher 53:44 I know. MSNOW.

Abby Phillip 53:44 I... Sorry to say, but it's, uh-

Kara Swisher 53:47 Uh, you can say. (laughs)

Abby Phillip 53:48 It doesn't-

Kara Swisher 53:48 CNN has stuck with its-

Abby Phillip 53:48 ... it doesn't roll, it doesn't roll off the tongue.

Kara Swisher 53:51 Does not roll off the... I don't know what you... Do you have a name you'd call it? Uh, any, anything?

Abby Phillip 53:56 I don't know. I'm... That's the thing. It's like how do you, how to rename a thing-

Kara Swisher 53:59 Yeah.

Abby Phillip 53:59 ... in this day and age?

Kara Swisher 54:00 Yeah. Yeah.

Abby Phillip 54:00 It's so hard.

Kara Swisher 54:01 Yeah.

Abby Phillip 54:01 I mean, I, I, I empathize because-

Kara Swisher 54:03 Yeah.

Abby Phillip 54:03 ... there are no g- there are no good choices here-

Kara Swisher 54:06 No.

Abby Phillip 54:06 ... to be frank.

Kara Swisher 54:07 MSNOW is not-

Abby Phillip 54:08 You know?

Kara Swisher 54:09 (laughs) Short for Windows op-

Abby Phillip 54:10 Was it My, Mysource?

Kara Swisher 54:11 It's true. Yeah.

Abby Phillip 54:13 Yeah. Um...

Kara Swisher 54:13 They made me download MSNow and I hate it. It's like ChatGPT-5. Those people are all upset they don't have ChatGPT-4o. But whatever. Um, uh, it's just like, ugh, come on. Um, it'll matter how they do ultimately, not the name because-

Abby Phillip 54:28 Right.

Kara Swisher 54:28 ... you know, uh, HBO Now, HBO Then, HBO This, uh, uh, Max, this and that happens all the time, but it's a particularly bad name. Sorry. Sorry, Rebecca Tugg.

Abby Phillip 54:40 I thought it was, I thought it was... Yeah. I know. We love Rebecca, but-

Kara Swisher 54:42 It's not her fault.

Abby Phillip 54:43 ... I, it's... I thought it was, um... It was nice to hear Rachel being so optimistic about it. Um-

Kara Swisher 54:48 Yeah. Yeah.

Abby Phillip 54:49 Yeah. I mean, I... And, and I think she's right. I, I think this is-

Kara Swisher 54:51 Yeah.

Abby Phillip 54:51 ... nothing but opportunity going forward. And maybe it doesn't matter what it's called.

Kara Swisher 54:55 Well, it's coming for you, Abby. That's what they're throwing over its...

Abby Phillip 54:56 Yeah, exactly. Right? Like, but who cares what it's called? I mean, at the end of the day, it's, that's not what matters. What matters-

Kara Swisher 55:03 Yeah. You get to keep CNN. There's no names o- problem.

Abby Phillip 55:05 That's true. Yeah. We-

Kara Swisher 55:06 There's no name conflict over there. And it should keep CNN. It's a global network.

Abby Phillip 55:09 Yeah. No. No. We're... I don't think CNN is go- I mean, I-

Kara Swisher 55:11 Yeah.

Abby Phillip 55:11 I don't know, but I don't think CNN is going anywhere in terms of the names, so...

Kara Swisher 55:14 Well, you're about to go on that journey too. And it's all about-

Abby Phillip 55:16 I know.

Kara Swisher 55:17 ... being an entrepreneur.

Abby Phillip 55:17 It's gonna be a fun little trip that we'll be on.

Kara Swisher 55:19 Yeah.

Abby Phillip 55:20 So...

Kara Swisher 55:21 Yeah, we'll see. All right, your wins and fails?

Abby Phillip 55:22 All right, my turn. Okay, should I s-... Um, let me start with my fail 'cause I want to-

Kara Swisher 55:26 Okay.

Abby Phillip 55:26 ... end on a high note.

Kara Swisher 55:27 Okay.

Abby Phillip 55:27 Um, my fail is the President of the United States going on this bizarre mail, anti-mail-in voting, uh, screed over the weekend about how he's going to... He wants to outlaw mail-in voting. Maybe this is because Putin brought this up with him on Friday as a way-

Kara Swisher 55:47 That's correct.

Abby Phillip 55:47 ... to try to flatter him, but he said all kinds of false things, including some things that led me to question whether anyone had shown him the actual Constitution-

Kara Swisher 56:01 Mm-hmm.

Abby Phillip 56:02 ... because-

Kara Swisher 56:02 Not yet.

Abby Phillip 56:04 ... he does, he does claim that the states are merely an agent for the federal government in counting and tabulating the votes, which is, needless to say, not what the Constitution says.

Kara Swisher 56:16 No.

Abby Phillip 56:16 I cannot wait to hear how, uh, states' rights conservatives defend this because not only does it make no sense at all, but, eh, his opposition to mail-in voting just defies reality. If Democrats were so good at rigging voting, votes, do you think that he would have won in 2024? Truly?

Kara Swisher 56:42 No.

Abby Phillip 56:42 I mean...

Kara Swisher 56:42 No.

Abby Phillip 56:43 Right?

Kara Swisher 56:44 No. Yeah.

Abby Phillip 56:44 So Democrats have done a really crappy job of rigging elections with mail-in votes. So-

Kara Swisher 56:50 I think he's trying to deal with 2026, either the census or the voting, right?

Abby Phillip 56:55 Yeah. Yes, and he says he wants to do it before, right, before the midterms. But, I mean, I, I, I say this as a, as a, you know... It's not a joke, but a little, somewhat lightheartedly, but it's also super important and terrible at the same time. I, I do think that this is just a bald-faced lie that ought to be immediately slap down.

Kara Swisher 57:15 And voting machines, same thing. He wants to get rid of voting machines.

Abby Phillip 57:17 Yeah, I mean, literally-

Kara Swisher 57:18 He wants to use rocks. Everyone gets a rock. (laughs)

Abby Phillip 57:20 He wants... Um, he said something about watermarked paper. (laughs)

Kara Swisher 57:24 Yeah. Oh.

Abby Phillip 57:25 I don't, I can't even begin to unpack that one, but that's my-

Kara Swisher 57:29 It creates distrust in voting, and that's-

Abby Phillip 57:31 That's my fail.

Kara Swisher 57:31 Continue. Okay, good fail.

Abby Phillip 57:32 He just wants more p- He wants more paper, which I, I don't know what to tell you.

Kara Swisher 57:36 He likes paper.

Abby Phillip 57:38 My win is...

Kara Swisher 57:41 He hates trees.

Abby Phillip 57:41 Uh, I have a four-year-old now, Kara, and I successfully executed a four-year-old birthday party-

Kara Swisher 57:48 (laughs)

Abby Phillip 57:48 ... this weekend. And I will tell you that, um, this one was hard.

Kara Swisher 57:54 Why?

Abby Phillip 57:54 It was harder than the ones that came before because they, she had so many frickin' opinions-

Kara Swisher 58:01 (laughs)

Abby Phillip 58:01 ... about this party and about the gifts that she was expecting and about-

Kara Swisher 58:06 Yeah.

Abby Phillip 58:06 You know, I mean, I was like tracking down the RSVPs like it was my party, like, "Is her-"

Kara Swisher 58:11 (laughs)

Abby Phillip 58:11 ... "best friend coming?" You know, like, "Oh my God, what if there are not these people that she really loves?" And-

Kara Swisher 58:18 Yeah.

Abby Phillip 58:19 I just... I'm glad to be through it.

Kara Swisher 58:22 Yeah.

Abby Phillip 58:22 But that's my win. I, I, first of all, I've kept a human alive for four years.

Kara Swisher 58:27 Yeah.

Abby Phillip 58:27 I successfully-

Kara Swisher 58:28 Congratulations.

Abby Phillip 58:28 ... planned a birthday party for said human.

Kara Swisher 58:32 Yeah.

Abby Phillip 58:32 Um, I still have my, my hearing because-

Kara Swisher 58:36 Mm-hmm.

Abby Phillip 58:36 ... the kids screamed like banshees-

Kara Swisher 58:38 Mm-hmm.

Abby Phillip 58:38 ... for-

Kara Swisher 58:39 Yeah.

Abby Phillip 58:39 ... at least 45 minutes at the start of this party.

Kara Swisher 58:42 Yeah.

Abby Phillip 58:42 Just nonstop running around and screaming.

Kara Swisher 58:45 Yeah.

Abby Phillip 58:45 And I'm here to live to tell the tale.

Kara Swisher 58:47 Oh, Abby, (laughs) you have no idea what's coming. (laughs) I'm on, I have four kids in Vermont right now, and let me just tell you, it's, it's... (laughs) You're gonna love seven and 10 and 13.

Abby Phillip 59:00 Oh, yeah.

Kara Swisher 59:01 Yeah.

Abby Phillip 59:01 I mean, I'm worried because the way four went, I was like, "Wait a second."

Kara Swisher 59:05 You, you better ge-

Abby Phillip 59:06 You're not supposed to do this yet.

Kara Swisher 59:06 You better get some endurance going here, Abby. (laughs) You have no idea.

Abby Phillip 59:09 She's, you're not supposed to do it. Yeah.

Kara Swisher 59:11 Oh, seven.

Abby Phillip 59:11 She also asked me for a gift that then she told me that she didn't want anymore-

Kara Swisher 59:14 Seven.

Abby Phillip 59:15 ... and that I should return.

Kara Swisher 59:16 I'm gonna give you some advice. Seven, 10, 13, 16, let me just... 20, 20, I didn't have the right yogurt this morning.

Abby Phillip 59:25 (laughs) Oh.

Kara Swisher 59:26 It's (laughs) sleeper's macros. Don't even talk to me. I had to buy two chickens.

Abby Phillip 59:29 (laughs) The macros, not the macros.

Kara Swisher 59:30 I don't even... I'm not even gonna let you know about that yet.

Abby Phillip 59:33 You're, you've got a protein monster in your house?

Kara Swisher 59:36 Oh my God.

Abby Phillip 59:36 I can tell.

Kara Swisher 59:36 Don't even talk to me.

Abby Phillip 59:37 (laughs)

Kara Swisher 59:38 Don't even... Just everyone has a different, uh, situation. Anyway, um, congratulations on that and, and get ready. That's all I have to say. Um, we wanna hear from you. Send us your questions about business, tech, or whatever is on your mind. Go to nymag.com/pivot to submit a question for the show or call 855-51-PIVOT. Elsewhere this week, I talked to philosopher and author Jason Stanley about fascism in the Trump era for just a light interview. Let's listen to a clip.

Narrator 1:00:05 It's a kind of paint by numbers fascist dictatorship that is emerging. It's not... It's, it's something that you would read a book and it says, "This is what they do," and that's what they're doing. Um, uh, sometimes I feel like they're reading my books. Uh, so, uh, so, you know, it's not... It, it's not hidden, and so it, it's not... It's, it's not a sophisticated version of, of authoritarianism. It's not even as sophisticated as Putin.

Kara Swisher 1:00:35 But it... Does it have to be?

Narrator 1:00:36 It doesn't appear so. It, it appears that the United States is exceptionally vulnerable to fascism.

Kara Swisher 1:00:44 Just what you were saying, Abby. Um, he's really an interesting fellow. He's the one that moved to Canada, um, which I chastised him for. Um, okay-

Abby Phillip 1:00:51 Can I say one-

Kara Swisher 1:00:52 Q-

Abby Phillip 1:00:52 ... quick thing about that-

Kara Swisher 1:00:53 Yeah, sure.

Abby Phillip 1:00:53 ... just 'cause I... First of all-

Kara Swisher 1:00:53 Sure.

Abby Phillip 1:00:54 ... that's super interesting. The one thing I would say is that even though I think it's super important to understand the history of all of this, I think people need to be very focused on the here and now in terms of tactically what is being done to, if you disagree with what Trump is doing, to address it. And I think people forget about that as they are sort of like, "Well, this is like what happened, you know, X number of-"

Kara Swisher 1:01:18 Yeah.

Abby Phillip 1:01:18 ... "years ago or over there."

Kara Swisher 1:01:20 Yeah.

Abby Phillip 1:01:20 And the question is, how do you convince your neighbors to vote for something different the next time around?

Kara Swisher 1:01:24 Right. He, although he did point out there are primers of how to resist-

Abby Phillip 1:01:28 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 1:01:28 ... a civil rights movement-

Abby Phillip 1:01:29 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 1:01:29 ... speaking of which you just wrote-

Abby Phillip 1:01:30 Exactly.

Kara Swisher 1:01:31 ... wrote a book about this. There, in the civil rights movement, the images that worked there, um, especially the, the brutality, moved over a group of people, mostly white, that-

Abby Phillip 1:01:42 Yep.

Kara Swisher 1:01:42 ... suddenly became empathetic and things changed, right, and-

Abby Phillip 1:01:45 Totally.

Kara Swisher 1:01:46 ... more and more protests happened, so... And Jackson was part of that, right? Calling attention-

Abby Phillip 1:01:50 A-

Kara Swisher 1:01:50 ... to it, um-

Abby Phillip 1:01:50 Absolutely.

Kara Swisher 1:01:50 ... as you noted. So we'll see. Yeah, he's an interesting guy. Um, okay, that's the show. Abby, thank you for joining me. I, I, I really appreciate it, and people can watch you on News Night every weeknight on CNN. And your book, uh, A Dream Deferred, Jesse Jackson and the Fight for Black Political Power, comes out in October, and again, we're gonna have you on On to talk about that. Uh, I really appreciate it. Thank you so much for coming on.

Abby Phillip 1:02:13 Thank you, Kara. Thank you, Kara. I really appreciate it. We did it.

Kara Swisher 1:02:16 We did it. (laughs) Anyway, everybody, thanks for listening to Pivot. Be sure to like and subscribe to our YouTube channel, which is growing by leaps and bounds. Uh, we'll be back 'cause now podcasting is video, Abby. I don't know if you know that, but FYI. Um, we'll, we'll be back-

Abby Phillip 1:02:29 It's why I'm here.

Kara Swisher 1:02:29 ... on Friday, and I will read us out. Today's show was produced by Lara Nejman, Zoe Marcus, Taylor Griffin, and Kevin Oliver. Ernie Entradat engineered this episode. Jim Mackell edited the video. Nishat Kurwa is Vox Media's executive producer of podcasts. Make sure to follow Pivot on your favorite podcast platform. Thanks for listening to Pivot on, from New York Magazine and Vox Media. You can subscribe to the magazine at nymag.com/pod. We'll be back later this week for another breakdown of all things tech and business. Again, thank you, Abby, and say hi to your Scott.

Abby Phillip 1:03:01 I will.

Kara Swisher 1:03:02 Okay? All right.

Abby Phillip 1:03:03 (laughs)

Kara Swisher 1:03:03 Thanks, Abby. (instrumental music plays)