PivotWill Ghislaine's DOJ Interview End MAGA’s Epstein Obsession? | Pivot
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,050 words- 0:00 – 10:17
Intro
- TMTim Miller
I do laugh at hear- her- having- hearing her call Trump, he was a gentleman in every respect.
- KSKara Swisher
Gentle.
- TMTim Miller
Like, even Trump's friends don't think he's a gentleman. (laughs) Like, even Trump-
- KSKara Swisher
No.
- TMTim Miller
... wouldn't describe himself as a gentleman, I don't think. (instrumental music)
- KSKara Swisher
Hi, everyone. This is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Kara Swisher, and welcome back to (radio sound) Scot-Free August. (air horn) I never get tired of that. Uh, it's the final week of Scot-Free August though. He is coming back soon. He's been texting me lately, so we know he's getting a little jumpy on his vacation in his expensive house, wherever it happens to be. Um, but I have yet another amazing co-host. This has been an astonishing month. Tim Miller, welcome to Pivot.
- TMTim Miller
Hey, Kara. I've just been kind of warming up, uh, some takes about narcissism and the crisis of-
- KSKara Swisher
Uh-huh.
- TMTim Miller
... young men and Cialis-
- KSKara Swisher
(laughs)
- TMTim Miller
... and stuff to help people, you know, kind of transition back into Scott September.
- KSKara Swisher
Okay, go for it. (laughs) Do you have anything?
- TMTim Miller
Uh, yeah. Well, no. I just- I think it's important-
- KSKara Swisher
You're just gonna-
- TMTim Miller
... to encourage-
- KSKara Swisher
... encourage young men.
- TMTim Miller
... to encourage older men to use Cialis and encourage younger-
- KSKara Swisher
(laughs)
- TMTim Miller
... men to get out there in the world and, uh, find women to sleep with bec- or men, uh, whatever-
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah.
- TMTim Miller
... because we don't- you know, we don't want incels, and I think it leads to-
- KSKara Swisher
Uh-huh.
- TMTim Miller
... other problems in society. And- and-
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah.
- TMTim Miller
... I think Scott's really-
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah.
- TMTim Miller
... really good on this point.
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah. Okay, good. Well, thank you. You are also the host of the Bulwark podcast, where you do a great job, and former GOP strategist. I cannot believe that at this point. Anyway, welcome.
- TMTim Miller
It's been a decade.
- KSKara Swisher
Um, yeah. Of the decade.
- 10:17 – 21:21
Trump Troop Threats
- KSKara Swisher
But first, President Trump is threatening to send National Guard troops to Chicago, New York, and Baltimore as part of his effort to crack down on crime. The Pentagon has been planning a military deployment in Chicago for weeks now, according to The Washington Post. Illinois Governor J. B. Pritzker is accusing Trump of trying to, quote, "manufacture a crisis." While over in Maryland, Governor Wes Moore sent Trump off at, set Trump off after inviting him to walk the streets of Baltimore. He offered a golf cart, by the way. Meanwhile, uh, Guard troops are now carrying weapons on the streets of DC. A Pete Hegseth directive makes me feel more unsafe as a DC resident. A CNN analysis of government data found a moderate drop in reported crime in DC during the first week of Trump's takeover, a far larger surge in the arrest of immigrants. Um, uh, Bill Maher has been talking about a slow-moving coup for a while now. In his latest episode, he laid out how Trump's recent actions suggest a coup may already be underway. It's a little long, but let's listen.
- NANarrator
Uh, first, create a masked police force. Get people loo- used to looking at that. Uh, normalize snatching people off the street. Get them used to that. Uh, normalize seeing the Guard, the National Guard and the military on the street. Then start talking about crime in the capital, which is basically, you know, it's always been a fairly crime-ridden city. This is our nation's capital, where elections are decided. And then have, because the crime is so bad, have other states start sending their troops. Not just the National Guard there in DC, but now at least six other states are sending their troops, which then Trump can then federalize. So you're having many states' troops on the ground there, and now they're under federal control. So you have in the capital a sort of permanent police presence.
- KSKara Swisher
So, let's talk about this. I live here. Uh, I just took my daughter to the first day of public school today. It, uh, couldn't, the images couldn't be different. It's a very, it's a, it's, he's not a crime-ridden city. It's actually, crime has been improving as Democrats have been pointing out. There's crime in every city. There's a lot of crime in Houston, for example. There's a lot of crime in Alabama in the cities. And wherever, it doesn't matter. Cities are like this. Uh, the second thing is this idea of people on the streets with guns. Um, but there haven't been a lot of protests. And it's not because people think this is a good thing. I know this. I've talked to lots and lots of people. Um, there's been a real, um, icing of the workforce around ICE, uh, people not coming to work. I just talked to one, someone who works, does some, some yard work for me. They can't come because of ICE, um, 'cause they're worried. They're, their workers are worried. Uh, shutdown at restaurants, et cetera. Talk a little bit about this, 'cause, you know, and then the threats to go to Chicago, um, to Baltimore, to, um, to New York, obviously, if Zaron Mandani wins, for example.
- TMTim Miller
Yeah. Um, I like that Bill Maher. Uh, I don't, you know, I was, I felt like he was kind of lecturing people about their (laughs) ... He was mad that people were mad at him for going to visit Trump, uh, earlier. And it's like, this is why. I- he's like consolidating power, and it's important to just be clear about what it is and what he's trying to do. Um, and, uh, to me, like the thing th- about this that, that makes me the most upset is this combination of this kind of like military, state military theater like with-... the actual, you know, mass thugs hassling, uh, people that are here sometimes illegally, sometimes not. I, you know, and they, they went and they tear gassed that guy and, like, banged, through his window in California, who is a US citizen, uh, Geor- George Rattus, and, and so, we'll kind of... You know, he's now gonna be able to sue. But, like, this is what they're doing, right? Like, it is, they're acting with impunity and, and the imagery of it, like, feels very un-American and it's just, it's wrong. It's like not, it, it feels like it's in a banana republic. It's like what we have, we've got these new trucks now with Daddy Trump's name on it and, you know, like, uh, people are walking through the streets in their military uniforms and, and, and then they're jumping out of unmarked cars with masks. Like, that's not how things should... Uh, you know, that's not what this country should be about. People should be outraged and, and, and pushing back on it. And I think that, to Bill's point, like, there's, like, this slow burn element of it about, like, getting people used to it-
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah, he talked about that earlier. Yeah.
- TMTim Miller
... um, that I think is really, is, is really alarming. So I, you know, uh, we'll, we'll kind of see how this stuff g- continues on in Chicago and, and, and Maryland are, are invol- and, and what else they decide to do in New York maybe, Baltimore, Chicago. Uh, but, uh, he's not, he's not being subtle a- about it, and it's important, I think, at each lever, so I was happy to see what Wes Moore was doing this weekend to, like, s- to, like, stop and say, like, "This is n- no." Like, "We're gonna push back on this now," you know, because otherwise it, it just becomes a creep where he is able to do more and more.
- KSKara Swisher
These, these cities have an ability to d- although LA had mixed, mixed ability to do it.
- TMTim Miller
Yeah.
- KSKara Swisher
No. The, the, DC is a unique entity because it's also-
- TMTim Miller
Right.
- KSKara Swisher
... a federal center and they don't have states' rights. There's no voting. Our, our representative happens to be out of it, actually, so you're not hearing from her. Um, and, and people, um, it's a unique situation here. In the other states, it's gonna be harder to try this-
- TMTim Miller
Yeah.
- KSKara Swisher
... to try these numbers. But how do you... Uh, y- uh, why aren't there more crackdowns, uh, and especially these visual images of e- either people, you know, being taken off the street, like, on moped and things like that-
- TMTim Miller
Yeah.
- KSKara Swisher
Or... Everyone has a story here. Um, people are, are not... I don't quite know what to do, right? What do you do? You go yell at these people? O- okay. That doesn't really have an effect. What is the, what is the response beside... In cities, I could see them pushing back on Trump-
- TMTim Miller
Sure.
- KSKara Swisher
... uh, but not DC.
- TMTim Miller
Yeah. No. I mean, look. And A, the response from Democratic leaders is that they have to say no and not, "We're gonna work with you on this." Right? Like, and that was... I mean, you know, Did that. Again, the DC thing is a little bit different. It's a little bit complicated, but when you get to these other cities, you know, saying n- uh, no, and they have to have showdowns over states' rights. I mean, like, this was... Like, J.D. Vance was on the shows over the weekend where he's talking about how this question of the red state National Guards coming there, coming to DC and how he's like, "Well, this is our system. We have states' rights. If the (laughs) Republican governors wanna send us troops to suck up to Trump, then, like, oh, well, we'll, we'll just do that." But that's not how it works, and there's other blue states and, and even purple states that have Democratic governors. Right? You notice Philly isn't on the list. Josh Shapiro is there. Detroit Commissioner Whitmer. Like, what... Eventually, you know, you would get a showdown in these places. Um, but I, I think that's important. I think it's important... Um, I, I think that the protesting is important itself. It's important for people to call their leaders. Look, I, I think a lot of people feel like, oh, the pushback has been limp, and I get that. I, I feel that way as well. There are things I wish people were doing more of. Um, but a part of that, I think, is because people feel like the pushback is hope- is not wi- is not with point because Trump has total power in DC and there's total power of Congress. But I, I point to this imm- the immigration thing in El Salvador as, like, a prime example of, like, how, like, pushing back on legal, political, and action on the streets grounds can slow them down. I mean, like, their initial plan was to send lots of people to that El Salvador prison, but they initially sent the three planes. There was immediately pushback, political, legal, people in the streets, and, uh, you know, the, the courts slowed them down and what ended up happening, like, about a couple weeks ago now, the, the, the w- the Venezuelans that they had sent there got sent back to Venezuela. No more planes have gone to El Salvador. No more people have been sent there. And, like, that is an example of resisting the administration that isn't maybe s- that satisfactory because it's not like a win for Democrats-
- KSKara Swisher
That's doing it- that's gonna try everything. You heard about the-
- TMTim Miller
Yeah. But it slowed them down on that vertical. They gotta do the s-
- KSKara Swisher
Yes.
- TMTim Miller
They gotta do the same thing across all these other verticals.
- KSKara Swisher
The slowdown.
- TMTim Miller
Yeah.
- KSKara Swisher
The idea of slowdown. You've heard about the white ladies putting Mexican flags on their cars to get ICE to stop them. Uh-
- TMTim Miller
I have not seen that. I like that.
- KSKara Swisher
People are making fun of it. It's like, why? It's wasting their time, and then the white ladies can chat away with them for the longest time.
- TMTim Miller
(laughs)
- KSKara Swisher
And, like, that's six hours. Like, I could talk to an ICE person for six hours-
- TMTim Miller
Yeah.
- 21:21 – 29:22
Ghislaine Maxwell’s DOJ Interview
- KSKara Swisher
the Trump administration has released transcripts and audio from the DOJ's recent interview with Ghislaine Maxwell, Jeffrey Epstein's longtime associate and convicted sexual, uh, offen- sex offender. In an interview, Maxwell, who is seeking a pardon, praised Donald Trump, what a surprise, and also downplayed his involvement in Epstein's activities. What a surprise. Let's listen to what this heinous bitch said.
- GMGhislaine Maxwell
I actually never saw the president in any type of massage setting. I never witnessed the president in any inappropriate setting in any way. The president was never inappropriate with anybody. In the times that I was with him, he was a gentleman, in all respects.
- KSKara Swisher
So said-
- TMTim Miller
Mm.
- KSKara Swisher
... the pedophile.
- TMTim Miller
The gentleman.
- KSKara Swisher
So said the pedophile. Maxwell also denied the existence of a client list and dismissed a number of Epstein's theories and allegations. Also rather kind to Epstein. He can rot in hell. She did, however, say she doesn't believe Epstein died by suicide in prison. Ho- honestly, why are we listening to th- I'm sorry, she's a heinous bitch. Why are we listening to her? Um, will it ap- it is ap- will it appease the MAGA folks? And what do you make of the timing? The DOJ also gave Congress thousands of Epstein documents, though Democrats are pointing out the majority of these documents were already public. They're trying to sort of s- slow roll the thing. A posthumous, uh, unquote unsparing memoir by Epstein accuser Virginie, uh, Giuffre, who died by suicide in April, is coming out this fall. And also some of the victims are now have fucking had it with this, again, HB, heinous bitch.
- TMTim Miller
Yeah.
- KSKara Swisher
Um-
- TMTim Miller
No need to apologize for saying heinous bitch. We can say-
- KSKara Swisher
Now she's-
- TMTim Miller
... that again now, is what I-
- KSKara Swisher
... a heinous b-
- TMTim Miller
Was that what I heard after the election?
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah. Yeah.
- TMTim Miller
That, that those words are allowed again. So nothing's-
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah, okay, good.
- TMTim Miller
... wrong with you.
- KSKara Swisher
I can say whatever I want-
- TMTim Miller
Yeah.
- KSKara Swisher
... about her.
- TMTim Miller
Um-
- KSKara Swisher
So anyway, um, uh, you know, I'm hoping Elizabeth Holmes, like, like smacks her a little bit (laughs) in the s- they're in the same prison, I guess. Um, talk a little bit about this and where it's going. I still think it's got a lot of legs, this, this story. I don't know.
- TMTim Miller
Yeah.
- KSKara Swisher
I feel like it does.
- TMTim Miller
I, um, I do laugh at hear- her having, hearing her call Trump, he was a gentleman in every respect.
- KSKara Swisher
Gentleman.
- TMTim Miller
Like, even Trump's friends don't think he's a gentleman. (laughs) Like even-
- KSKara Swisher
No.
- TMTim Miller
... Trump wouldn't describe himself as a gentleman, I don't think. (laughs)
- 29:22 – 38:36
Trump’s Intel Deal
- KSKara Swisher
The US government is taking a 10% stake in Intel with Trump calling it a, quote, "Great deal for America and a great deal for Intel." Under the agreement, $8.9 billion in unpaid Chip Act grants will be converted into equity, making the government Intel's largest shareholder but without board seats or governance rights. It's a turnaround from a few weeks ago when Trump was calling for Intel's CEO to resign over ties to China. Intel als- move also comes on the heels of Nvidia and AMD agreeing to hand over 15% of their China chip sale revenues to the government. Not clear whether they should be selling chips to China. There's also that, quote, "golden share" in US Steel. Uh, Senator Rand Paul called the Intel deal, "a step towards socialism." I, oddly enough, agreed with Senator Rand Paul. Industrial policy is not my favorite thing. Even the Washington Post and also the Wall Street Journal, but the Washington Post editorial board came out against this saying the United States should not be trying to beat China by becoming China. Um, you know, AOC, Elizabeth Warren, Bernie Sanders wish they could have this much control over companies, right? And, Mark Cuban's interested-
- TMTim Miller
Bernie endorsed it, actually. (laughs)
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah, yeah, of course, um, and, um, Mark Cuban said it's just a wealth tax in a different way, right? They're w- they're taking money. I, uh, you know, as part of it, I'm like, I thought the government should have not done the giveaways to car companies or banks. Um, I thought they should have taken a piece of Tesla and then sold it back and made money on it for the US... There's nothing wrong with it but industrial policy in general is always a bad idea in a, in a capitalist and vibrant, uh, economy. Um, thoughts about this and how it, how it shakes out?
- TMTim Miller
I'm curious of your thoughts on the tech side. I, I'll just give, 'cause this is like also a little bit outside my wheelhouse, but my, the politic- and obviously there is the chief but true political observation of the, you know, MAGA socialism, and like it's okay if Trump doesn't, we're gonna panic about the five city-run grocery stores in New York but (laughs) we're, we're gonna let the government take over a 10% stake in a major company, uh, you know, so I, there's like the obvious hypocrisy on its face there. Um, and uh, you know it's kind of funny, I think back to my like heyday as a Republican when like one of, like back, like 10, 15 years ago there was this big controversy on the right over the EXIM Bank, (laughs) like a federal bank providing loans-
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah. Yeah.
- TMTim Miller
... that I, how that was all government picking winners and losers and crony capitalism-
- KSKara Swisher
Picking winners and losers, yeah.
- TMTim Miller
... and like here we are like literally taking a stake in the company now. So uh, um, I mean I think that is-... outr- outrageous. The thing that worries me about it more than the act- than, like, the substance of what's happening with, with the po- with Intel is like, it is another lever for him to use power to bully kind of who knows, right? Other people, right? And so whether that be Intel customers, competitors, right now, like, so it's like, "Well, we aren't gonna take a stake. We're not gonna take a, we're not..." Or excuse me, "We're not gonna have a governing responsibility in the company." But the government now still has an interest in this doing well, and Trump does. Trump has an emotional interest. He's, he's posting about how the stock's up and how that's good and how the sales was good. And so, like, the downstream effects of that is something that is not, like, all the way to China but, but has some of that flavor where, like, the government can start to-
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah.
- TMTim Miller
... intimidate certain other companies into using-
- KSKara Swisher
And decide which are the national winners.
- TMTim Miller
Yeah. Yeah.
- KSKara Swisher
Right? Like, but except you don't want the government in your business essentially. And one of the issues is Intel's been suffering for years and years. Lack of innovation, bad management, et cetera. You know, for a very long time. Ver- it used to be the dominant chip maker, and then just got, got ... just fell by the wayside. So there is an argument to be made for, like, helping US companies in the chip area, largely for national security.
- TMTim Miller
Well, there was the CHIPS Act that was gonna do that. That-
- KSKara Swisher
Yes, exactly. But the issue is, it's not gonna make them more innovative by having the government investment. It's just gonna prop them up, right? And the problems with Intel run a lot deeper that maybe they should go out of business. Maybe they should restructure.
- TMTim Miller
Hm.
- KSKara Swisher
Maybe they should ... We shouldn't have the government deciding to keep them on, uh, on, on life support, right? And it's not life support, but it's just been, it's been sucking for many CEOs for a long time. And so, you know, the natural thing is let it die, and then something else comes up. The problem is we ... our chip manufacturers are weaker, and they're, they're stronger in, in Taiwan and China and elsewhere. And so just the fact that governments makes choices like this, they shouldn't. They should, what they should do is provide research money for all kinds of things. Th- they should provide, uh, encouragement and innovative grants to help people start businesses all k- of all kinds. Those are fine by me, and I think government has-
- TMTim Miller
I'm fine with manufacturing-
- KSKara Swisher
... advocated.
- TMTim Miller
... money, right? Like, we want to-
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah.
- TMTim Miller
... make sure that they have, you know, loan guarantees to build plants so, you know, if-
- KSKara Swisher
Right.
- TMTim Miller
Like, there's a reason interest rates are high right now, so, like, it's, it's in the national interest that we're building chip plants. Companies don't wanna do, take the risks.
- KSKara Swisher
Right.
- TMTim Miller
The government backstops that. Uh, it's not, like, my ideal free market system.
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm.
- TMTim Miller
But that, that's like a defensible thing for the government to wanna do.
- KSKara Swisher
On this particular market.
- TMTim Miller
On this particular market, yeah.
- 38:36 – 43:46
FBI Raids John Bolton
- KSKara Swisher
agents raided the home and office of former Trump National Security Advisor John Bolton on Friday. The Trump critic is the subject of a national security investigation in search of classified records. Vice President J.D. Vance says the raid definitely doesn't have anything to do with Bolton's criticism of Trump, which means it does. Or rather, stems from a, quote, "broad concern about the im- ... about Ambassador Bolton." You know, the Wall Street Journal's against this. Everyone's against this. Like, doing ... You know, I think what they're doing is what they thought was done to them. So, if it ... They didn't like it done to them, why are they doing it to others? Um, very retribution, revenge. He just threatened Chris Christie, I think, today-
- TMTim Miller
Yeah.
- KSKara Swisher
... or yesterday.
- TMTim Miller
Yeah. Threatening to jail-
- KSKara Swisher
Thoughts?
- TMTim Miller
... Chris Christie, too.
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm.
- TMTim Miller
Yeah. Uh, the Wall Street Journal editorial board ... This kind of cracked me up, um-
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah.
- TMTim Miller
... since they've been very Trump-friendly. They talked about how one of the concerns of him coming back was that he'd run vendettas. And, uh, they wrote, quote, "It's turning out to be worse than we imagined." (laughs) It's like-
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah. (laughs)
- TMTim Miller
... oh, you don't say?
- KSKara Swisher
You don't say?
- TMTim Miller
Not me, actually. It's going quite, quite bright, uh ... Just about exactly how we told you it was gonna go, not, not, uh, not any worse.
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah. Yeah.
- TMTim Miller
Um, the Bolton thing ... I, I just think it's important to say this because, like, it's obviously preposterous that, like, th- this is not a political attack, but if y- if you just replace John Bolton with, like, uh, Mark Meadows or Corey L- ... Like, imagine it was somebody from the Trump first term that wrote a book, that who is still in good graces with Trump, and the accusation is that there were classified materials in that book that was written five years ago. There's no imaginable world in which the FBI is raiding the home of a f- Trump 1.0 Cabinet member who is still an ally, right? Like, you just ... Nobody could imagine that. If there were a legitimate concern that he had some classified materials they shouldn't have, like, there's a process for this sort of thing. FBI calls, DOJ's lawyers call their lawyers, you set up a meeting.
- KSKara Swisher
Right.
- TMTim Miller
Like, all ... You know. Uh, so this is, this was purely to either hassle or intimidate.
- KSKara Swisher
Feels like prosecutorial overreach, right? That's just the thing that Trump complained about. And it does ... I think it brings up what Trump did. Like, again, like, "You did it." This is, this-
- TMTim Miller
Yeah.
- KSKara Swisher
It's-
- TMTim Miller
Well, the Trump-
- KSKara Swisher
It's really quite-
- TMTim Miller
The Trump example is im- ... It's important to just explain the differences. Like, in the Mar-a-Lago raid, which I, I would listen to the idea that, that maybe that could have been handled in a less aggressive way, but like, it's a- it's not comparable to the Bolton situation. Like, the, the, the Mar-a-Lago raid, the a- ... The, you know, the archivist or whatever, like, you know, um, said that, that Trump, you know, brought some materials that, that, you know, sh- ... Are the property of the United States. He shouldn't have. You know, they asked for, um, a meeting, denied. Then they provided a list of what the materials were. Trump lied and said that it wasn't there. They tried to move some of the materials to a different place, right? And so Trump was obstructing the, the effort to do this in like the good faith way that is u- ... That this is generally done, and that's why the raid happened. Like, that was not the case with John Bolton. They just showed up at his house. I think because the statute of limitations, I suspect, is running out on the stuff from the first term, which would be five years now. And they did so just to intimidate him. Um, Panjwandi puts out a tweet about it. I don't have it in front of me, but it was something like, "Our national security," (laughs) you know, "comes first." It's like nobody thinks that America's security was at threat 'cause of whatever John Bolton has in his house. Um, and, uh, you know ... And, and I- and I think that it, it ties kind of to the intel thing. Like, the thing that worries me about everything is eventually s- ... And ties to the Bill Maher thing at the top. Like, slowly but surely, people just decide it's not worth the hassle, right? Like, you get into authoritarianism not through violent coup necessary, but by slow burn-
- KSKara Swisher
No, that's exactly ... Yeah.
- TMTim Miller
... towards everyone deciding, you know, "I'm gonna go bring him a trophy to keep him happy. I'm not gonna say anything wrong 'cause I don't want the FBI to come after me." And, you know, eventually you consolidate power, and that's closer to like what you've seen in Hungary and other places.
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah. Uh, w- uh, well-known centers of innovation.
- TMTim Miller
Yeah.
- KSKara Swisher
Hungary, Turkey.
- TMTim Miller
Exactly. Economy's really, really thriving in Hungary and Turkey.
- 43:46 – 50:43
Cracker Barrel’s Logo Change
- KSKara Swisher
sure you're seated for this next emotional topic, Cracker Barrel's logo change. Uh, the chain has removed the barrel and the man from its logo, and conservatives are horrified. Change is hard, conservatives. Cracker Barrel stock was down 12% in the last five days at the time of taping. And that's because it's mostly... Like, I haven't been in a Cracker Barrel because they're so anti-gay, right? That's what I remember. Um, so-
- TMTim Miller
No, they did a ... Oh, obviously, you don't remember their effort to appeal to your care.
- KSKara Swisher
(laughs)
- TMTim Miller
A couple years ago, they-
- KSKara Swisher
Today?
- TMTim Miller
... they did a rainbow rocking chair out-
- KSKara Swisher
Today?
- TMTim Miller
... uh, during Pride Month a couple years ago.
- KSKara Swisher
Oh.
- TMTim Miller
Yeah.
- KSKara Swisher
Whatever.
- TMTim Miller
(laughs)
- KSKara Swisher
You know, I, this is fucking ridiculous. This is like... It's just a logo change, and the old man seems, like, old. Like, for ... They want young people to come. That's my presumption, is they've got too many fucking old people in the place and they need a new, they need a new demo. It makes sense for... Again, meddling in the business. Like, if they wanna get rid of the old fucking man, they should get rid of the old man. And the fact that they're all horrified. Like, they're so, they're so censorious, the right, when they accuse others of being censorious. And, you know, they'll either live or die by the stock going down, and maybe they'll put the man back or whatever. But it's just... I, I don't, I don't care.
- TMTim Miller
I've got to take a, a contrary view to you on this one.
- KSKara Swisher
Okay. You tell me.
- TMTim Miller
Are you ready to fight over Cracker Barrel?
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah. Okay.
- TMTim Miller
Uh, the logo, the new logo is awful.
- KSKara Swisher
When's the last time you went?
- TMTim Miller
I haven't been to Cracker Barrel in years.
- KSKara Swisher
Oh, it's an ugly logo.
- TMTim Miller
That's an ug-
- KSKara Swisher
Correct.
- TMTim Miller
Yeah. Yeah. I've been ... I haven't been in years. We ... Every once in a while, I'll go, I think, on the drive from DC to the beach, there's a Cracker Barrel somewhere. But that was many years ago now. Uh, so I haven't been in a while, so I don't actually have any personal stake or, or care about this. But I do, just as an objective (laughs) observer of the world. The new logo is awful.
- KSKara Swisher
It is.
- TMTim Miller
The picture that they put out of the new inside of a Cracker Barrel, which is more minimalist or whatever, is also awful, and it is part of-
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah.
- TMTim Miller
... a broader corporate trend where every logo has to be minimalist now, and every store needs to have clean lines. And, and we get ... We need d- ... We need diversity of views. You know, you need a diversity of experiences. Like, the human spirit, you know, yearns for different types of ... You know, we don't all-
- KSKara Swisher
Yes.
- TMTim Miller
... want Scandinavian clean lines. There's some places call for Scandinavian-
- 50:43 – 58:31
X’s Severance Settlement
- KSKara Swisher
Musk's X has agreed, uh, to a tentative settlement to settle a lawsuit filed by former Twitter employees who say they are owed $500 million in severance. Musk fired around 6,000 employees after acquiring Twitter, and of course he didn't pay them. In other Musk news, he also asked Mark Zuckerberg to help him finance a $97 billion takeover of OpenAI in early 2025 according to court filings, in a case between Musk and OpenAI. Obviously it didn't happen, uh, thank God, but, again, uh, Mark makes his-
- TMTim Miller
Thank God, I guess. Isn't that kind, isn't this kind of like an Iran-Iraq war situation?
- KSKara Swisher
Right.
- TMTim Miller
Who are you rooting for in Altman-
- KSKara Swisher
Right, yeah, the bullets, as-
- TMTim Miller
... versus Musk versus Zuckerberg?
- KSKara Swisher
The bullets is what Scott always says.
- TMTim Miller
Yeah. (laughs)
- KSKara Swisher
You're rooting for the bullets. Um, you know, this, I know a little bit about this payment, and I'll just say really briefly, uh, y- I've met with a lot of the people who they owe money to, and it... Look, if you wanna fire people, Elon, that's fine, that's your business. But pay them what they're owed. That's it. That's, y- it just makes you, like, an asshole not to pay them their severance, even if you don't like what they did before, that was the agreement they were taken over. As to his OpenAI thing, just stop... Y- you know, Sam Altman is not interested in you, so stop bothering that company. You, you walked yourself out of there like an idiot when you were there from the beginning, 'cause you have your ego, a- and your need for control. You don't have it. Just try to make a good company on your own. That's my feeling about it. Any thoughts?
- TMTim Miller
I don't, I don't have any thoughts on the Twitter filings, so I agree with everything you said. Um, while we're admitting to bad opinions that we have about aesthetics, I also kind of like the, the Zuckerberg fuckboy rebrand. I think that that's-
- KSKara Swisher
(laughs)
- TMTim Miller
... been good for him, so I support that.
- KSKara Swisher
Is he a fuckboy?
- TMTim Miller
Uh, kind of. I mean, the gold chain-
- KSKara Swisher
Would you fuck him?
- TMTim Miller
... and the, and the, and the, what do they, what do the kids call it?
- KSKara Swisher
Then you're not answer.
- TMTim Miller
The lettuce hair.
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah.
- TMTim Miller
Um...
- KSKara Swisher
Okay, would you go out with him? Do you think he's attractive?
- TMTim Miller
Not really for, well, not really for me. Um, no, I don't think so.
- KSKara Swisher
Okay, so...
- TMTim Miller
I d- I, I guess I had to pick between him and Alt- I probably would, originally would've said Sam Altman, but I don't know. The, Sa- Sam's recent interviews are pretty creepy. Like he's starting to move into the uncanny valley for me a little bit.
- KSKara Swisher
Oh, interesting. How so? Tell me. Explain.
- TMTim Miller
I don't, I don't know. I just, I, like, the, um, um, the, m- like, the, I, I, I get him in my TikTok a lot, I guess kind of how you're consuming me, like he does all these podcast interviews where he's talking about what we want the future of OpenAI, like did you see his Theo Von interview?
- KSKara Swisher
I did see it.
- TMTim Miller
And his, and like wh- and his-
- KSKara Swisher
Oh, I saw it. I saw that.
- TMTim Miller
... projections about what is coming, uh, you know, and how, um, you know, people are just going to have to get used to a world where there are like robot humans walking around on the street everywhere and where like a lot of people's real friends are-
- 58:31 – 1:02:34
Wins and Fails
- KSKara Swisher
Okay, Tim, let's hear some wins and fails. I will go first. Um, I think, uh, i- it's sort of a fail, this Trump's cankle thing. I know people are like, "Ugh." It's really odd. I have to say Alex Jones is concerned about Trump's health. He warned last week at the current trajectory, Trump is going to have some sort of collapse within the next 12 months. Thank you, Dr. Jones, you terrible, heinous-
- TMTim Miller
(laughs)
- KSKara Swisher
... speaking of heinous bitches. Trump's hands are also looking questionable with all those odd smears of makeup. You think he could do better as the president. He had a weird walking thing. The age is ... As I have said, the cognitive decline and the age decline is real. And he ... Let me tell you, he's a lively old man, that's for sure. Like, he's the, he's the guy in the, in the, in the nursing home that's just real lively, but still gonna keel over at any moment, could keel over at any moment. Uh, I think that's, uh, I think they ... I'm not sure why they aren't controlling this, um, s- especially with the makeup and everything else, l- largely because he's probably very vain and everything else. But he's, he's obviously aged rather significantly in so many ways, and I think it's taking its toll on him. Um, it feels like he's rotting. It feels like when Voldemort was starting to rot, like when he wasn't getting enough dead people, that, or his Horcrux.
- TMTim Miller
We can't, uh, we can't see his real face is something that's true. Now, now-
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah.
- TMTim Miller
... the leader will not show us what he really looks like, because-
- KSKara Swisher
Right.
- TMTim Miller
... um, it's, you know, he's, uh, he's so fragile now. Decaying.
- KSKara Swisher
He, he looks like he was o- on Ozempic, but now he looks fat again. I'm like, "Hm, something's going on with his health." I think, I don't think that's a win or a fail. I just feel like-
- TMTim Miller
You just wanted to mention it? (laughs)
- KSKara Swisher
... I don't think it's ... I just want to mention it, because I-
- TMTim Miller
(laughs)
- KSKara Swisher
... I think people are like, "Oh, let's not mention it." I'm like, "No, no."
- TMTim Miller
Yeah.
- KSKara Swisher
"He looks ... If we're gonna ..." Like, we should've mentioned more things about Biden, and Scott and I did, and gotten a lot of crap. This, he looks ... There's something going on with this guy.
- TMTim Miller
Cankles are noteworthy. And if the-
- KSKara Swisher
Noteworthy.
- TMTim Miller
If the cankles-
- KSKara Swisher
Cankles.
- TMTim Miller
... are as wide as Alex Jones' neck-
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah. (laughs)
- TMTim Miller
... you know that there is something concerning there.
- KSKara Swisher
Remember when they attacked Hillary Clinton's cankles? You know, I'm just saying.
- TMTim Miller
I don't recall that.
- KSKara Swisher
It's good for the gan-
- TMTim Miller
I hope that wasn't me.
- KSKara Swisher
It's good for the gander.
- TMTim Miller
(laughs)
- KSKara Swisher
No, it wasn't you. It's good for the goose. Um, and my, my win is the fantastic, once again, we have the new version of Wicked coming, and it's only in three months, and I think their social media campaign is fantastic. And they've done a great job. I love Jon Chu. Um, he's gonna be here in DC next couple, uh, next week. I'm gonna see him hopefully. Um, I just, I'm very excited about, uh, about that movie, and I just can't g- I'm not gonna hide it. I love it, and I love the actors in it, and I think they're doing a spectacular marketing job on it. And I just love to watch, uh, people use social media in a really positive way, and I like that, and it gives me pleasure. Your win and fail?
- TMTim Miller
All right. Well, I wasn't planning this one, but, uh, if we're doing, you know, musical shout-outs, I should win for ... I, I have to give my Oasis guys a win. I mean, they, they reunited. Nobody said they could do it. They're coming to America now this week. They'll be back.
Episode duration: 1:07:27
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