#1 Communication Expert: "If Someone Says THIS, They’re Trying to Control You!" – Protect Your Peace

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 0:00 In your view, what are some of the common things that get in the way of people communicating effectively?

Jefferson Fisher 0:08 Hmm. [chuckles] Lots. The number one would be they assume that what is said is what was received in that instance. So if I were to tell you something, and we've felt this in, uh, relationships, we've felt this at work, you send a message, and they hear and they feel something very different. Maybe in an email you wrote something, and all of a sudden they go, "Why are you mad at me?" You go, "I'm not mad." Or you're talking and somebody says, "Why are you yelling?" You go, "I'm not yelling," or, "I, I'm not upset." And so we feel these instances where what we thought we said is not is what is received on the other end, so there's that kind of miscommunication. Now, there's also just the difficultness of being open and receptive in the moment, or we don't want to listen, so we're the ones not willing to receive anything. We're the ones that are getting defensive. And on top of that, we often feel that conversation, especially disagreements, instantly become a competition wh- where we want to win.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:10 Mm.

Jefferson Fisher 1:10 We want to dominate, we want to compete, and those are recipes for a bad conversation real quick.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:16 Yeah. You know, it's interesting, the last couple of days I've gone deep into all of your online content and your wonderful new book-

Jefferson Fisher 1:24 Nice

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:24 ... and you've got great information to share. But it's not just what you're sharing, it's how you're sharing it.

Jefferson Fisher 1:32 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:32 There's a, there's a calmness, there's a friendliness.

Jefferson Fisher 1:36 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:36 And I think, going back to what you said about what are the obstacles to good communication, basically what you're hearing is the tip of the iceberg.

Jefferson Fisher 1:45 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:45 There's something going on beneath that.

Jefferson Fisher 1:47 Yes. The person you see is often not the person you're talking to, meaning I'm, I'm talking to you right here, but I don't know the struggles you're having. I don't know if you had a, a difficult time this morning with the wife or the kids or anybody, and that's the same for anybody we meet. And how we talk to them in that moment, how we hear them in that moment often is a reflection of a lot of other influences rather than just saying, "How dare they say that to me?" without ever questioning-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:19 Mm

Jefferson Fisher 2:19 ... why would they say that? Where is this coming from? There's always a surface and a depth to anybody.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:24 Yeah. Your personal story deeply fascinates me, so I wonder if you could tell me about eight-year-old Jefferson-

Jefferson Fisher 2:35 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:35 ... and that weekend when you fell asleep with beef biltong-

Jefferson Fisher 2:40 Oh [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:40 ... in your hands.

Jefferson Fisher 2:41 Yeah. Uh, so I am a fifth-generation trial attorney, and I'm talking my great-grandfather was a federal judge. His father was an attorney. Grandfather was a DA, county attorney. Dad's an attorney. I have cousins, great uncles, cousins, you name it, trial attorneys. I w- I mean, there are people I know that have lots of doctors in their family. There's not a doctor in our family.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 3:05 [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 3:05 There's nobody... I mean, we can't, we couldn't build a shed to help our lives.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 3:10 [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 3:10 You know what I mean? So all, all we do is know how to blow hot air. And, um-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 3:16 [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 3:16 Yeah, so that's... I, I grew up in that kind of lifestyle. So every year we'd, we'd go on a trip, and I was the oldest of my generation, so I was the first great-grandson of the, the judge. And of course, when you're there it's, you don't be talking. Don't... It is still the, the men's retreat here, so it was much better if I was just quiet, which I had no problem. I was just-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 3:42 It's the first one you'd been invited to.

Jefferson Fisher 3:43 Yeah, it was the first one I was invited to, and I thought I was on top of the world. I mean, I thought I was so big. I thought I was so grown. It was about a seven-and-a-half-hour car ride with my dad, which that in and of itself was the most alone time I'd ever had with my dad.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 4:00 Wow.

Jefferson Fisher 4:00 Um, and so being able to have that, 'cause always my siblings, and y- as a oldest child and having siblings, you never really had one-on-one time with your, with your parents. And so to have that trip with him, uh, those are some of also my very, very special memories. And getting there, being in that space, yeah, I, I like to say I thought I was called up to the big leagues. I mean, I thought I couldn't have been more of a big kid.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 4:27 And you were eight?

Jefferson Fisher 4:28 I was eight. I was eight, and so I will never forget the first night we're there, and I don't know what's gonna happen. I don't know if we're gonna turn on the TV. I, I, I don't even know what was gonna happen. So we're eating dinner, and then we're all in this main room. It was kind of a combined kitchen and, and living room space, and I'm in the corner just eating my, I guess you call it, uh... We call it beef jerky.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 4:51 Okay.

Jefferson Fisher 4:51 Okay, yeah. And I'll never forget, my grandfather, my dad's dad, just kind of sat down his plate and goes, "Not too long ago, I was having this, uh, guy who came over and this client of mine," and he starts telling a story. And I just remember stopping and going, "Oh, he's, he's telling, he's telling a story." Okay, I'm kind of listening. This is the first experience I've ever had of that. And then everybody at the punchline erupts in laughter, and then somebody else, another cousin, you know, "I had this, another client this one time," or, "One time I, I had this case," or, "One time I was in front of this judge and he said..." And they start telling stories, and it was courtroom story after courtroom story, and I'm just in awe. I mean, it felt like-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 5:34 Mm

Jefferson Fisher 5:34 ... I had seen a magic show. It, it was like going to the movies for the very first time of what, like what is this? And in some sense it felt like a- as these are all, all family, these are all Fishers, and I'm going, "Oh, this is my life. This is my inheritance. This is my family. This is-"

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 5:57 Mm.

Jefferson Fisher 5:57 And it immediately became-That a part of our identity as a family was the storytelling, this advocacy of using their voice, and they're, they're wonderful storytellers, all trial attorneys. And so to be able to just see that as a young kid, I mean, w- that's all they did every night was tell stories.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 6:20 Yeah, I think you say-

Jefferson Fisher 6:21 That was it

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 6:21 ... something really powerful in the introduction about-

Jefferson Fisher 6:23 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 6:24 ... that weekend. Yeah, here it is.

Jefferson Fisher 6:26 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 6:26 "I realized with each year gone by that law was only the family profession. Communication was the true family passion."

Jefferson Fisher 6:34 Correct.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 6:35 I, I found that just so evocative.

Jefferson Fisher 6:37 Yeah. [laughs] Wonderful.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 6:38 I just, you know, just... You, you paint that beautiful story in the introduction, and I was trying to imagine you in this old building and just you all gathered around and your eyes just in awe as your granddad's-

Jefferson Fisher 6:48 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 6:48 ... Was it your granddad or your great-granddad telling the story?

Jefferson Fisher 6:50 It was my great-grandfather first, and then, then eventually it was my great-grandfather. But they all just traded stories, and it was, it was, uh... Y- you know how in certain styles of music, every instrument kinda takes a turn, right?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 7:02 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 7:02 Of, like, a solo maybe in jazz and lots of different styles, Bluegrass. It was very much like that. Everybody kind of began to share their own story, and it became natural. It was without pauses, and it was still laughter, and it was... It- I've never experienced that just eyes-opening wonder of seeing that.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 7:25 Looking back now as a successful trial lawyer, as a successful podcaster, as a-

Jefferson Fisher 7:31 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 7:31 ... best-selling author, what do you think that weekend taught you?

Jefferson Fisher 7:38 Hmm. It, it, it taught me the magic and power of, of words in a way I've never felt or seen before, of how one word can really shift an entire outcome. You've ever heard somebody tell a joke and it was simply the way they told it just wasn't that funny?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 8:00 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 8:00 But you have other people who could retell that same joke, and maybe it's their timing. Maybe it's their inflection, their tone, the way they can use their voice like, uh, an artist would use a paintbrush that paints an entirely different picture. And there are great artists, and there are artists that just, uh, they, they couldn't draw you a house.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 8:20 Hmm.

Jefferson Fisher 8:20 And so it was, it was a master class through every year that I went of the power of words and the art of communication and how you can capture people and create outcomes that, that lead to better things.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 8:38 Yeah. Is communication something that is innate in human beings, right? Let's imagine human beings 500 years ago, 1,000 years ago, 10,000 years ago.

Jefferson Fisher 8:52 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 8:52 Is our ability to communicate one of the things that makes us human? And if so, why is it today so many of us struggle and hence need a book like yours to teach us how to do it?

Jefferson Fisher 9:08 Communication is, is what creates the connection in humans. Y- you can communicate with words. You can communicate with no words. You might have the absence of sound, but that's not always the absence of communication. I, I say that our ability to communicate's what separates us. And I have a show, um, this is probably my guilty pleasure show. When I'm reading, I like to have something on, and it's the show Alone on Netflix. It's like they send people out to the wilderness out in Alaska or something-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 9:43 [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 9:43 ... and just see how long they can do. And these people who have survival skills, they can last for months out there if they want.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 9:49 Hmm.

Jefferson Fisher 9:49 But they always tap out, meaning they, they go, "I don't wanna be here anymore." Not because they don't have the ability. It's because they miss humans. They miss the sound of other humans, the people in their life. Even people that they may not even have that great of a relationship with when they left, they start to miss. They start to... We- we're not meant to be alone.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 10:10 Hmm.

Jefferson Fisher 10:11 It's not healthy. It's, it is not good. It wasn't good for man to be alone. It's not good for humans to be alone.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 10:17 Hmm.

Jefferson Fisher 10:17 And I feel very compelled in that the words that you use is what's determinative of the life you want to lead. If you wanna change, if you're listening and you go, "I don't really like where I'm at in life right now," you can change it, and you don't need to buy a, a new software. You don't need to b- have a new company slogan. It's, it is just the decision to have a new conversation with yourself and with others. You, you choose the words you want to choose the life that you want to, to lead. It really just begins with the power of, of what you say.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 10:55 Yeah. You say you can change any relationship at any moment by changing the way that you communicate.

Jefferson Fisher 11:01 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 11:02 Okay? And I, I really love that idea that it's about that next conversation.

Jefferson Fisher 11:07 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 11:07 You know? Just change the next conversation. Don't worry about the one next week or next month. Just, just focus on the next conversation. Now, your book has these three core principles of how we can communicate better and have better conversations, right? Say it with control, say it with confidence, and say it to connect.

Jefferson Fisher 11:27 That's right.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 11:27 Can you go through those three things step by step and help us understand what exactly they mean and also how we can start to apply them when we're having conversations?

Jefferson Fisher 11:39 Rule one is say it with control, and what that is in a nutshell is rather than trying to control the other person when you're having a difficult conversation, which is typically the default. That's our, our gut urge is to control you. Where you actually find success is controlling yourself. So instead of trying to control them, what you do is control yourself. That's gonna begin always a better conversation. Two is saying it with confidence, meaning how to find your assertive voice. People often feel like confidence is something they need to have before the conversation. They're saying, "Well, I'm, I'm kinda working up the confidence to s- to say this." That's wrong.Confidence is not what you have before the conversation. Confidence is the outcome. It's a feeling. It's the same thing if, if I said, "Hey, look, I need you to be sad right now. Sad as you've ever been with me right now." There wouldn't be anything to trigger that-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 12:32 Hmm

Jefferson Fisher 12:32 ... to force that. Or if I said, "I need you to be mad right now," you-- there's nothing to do that.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 12:37 Hmm.

Jefferson Fisher 12:37 But if I were to hit you in the shoulder out of nowhere, you might be... Now you can be mad. Why? 'Cause it came from something. How you create the confidence is using your assertive voice. So I, I teach confidence is as assertive does. Three, rule three is you say it to connect. Connection is two components. There's understanding and acknowledgement. I can understand you if you say something, but if I don't acknowledge you, you're not gonna feel connected to me. At the same time, if I can acknowledge you, but I don't really understand it-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 13:08 Mm-hmm

Jefferson Fisher 13:09 ... I'm not gonna connect with you. And so you have to have these two components of understanding and, and creating connection in conversation by saying what you mean and meaning what you say.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 13:20 Yeah. You know, as you were describing control there, for me, looking at it a different way, it was internal v. external, right? So in general, in life, we have limited control on externalities. We've got a lot more control on what's going on internally.

Jefferson Fisher 13:40 Right.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 13:41 And therefore, if we apply that to what you just said, you know, if you're trying to control somebody else-

Jefferson Fisher 13:48 Mm-hmm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 13:48 ... or manipulate what they say, right, you're, you're... You know, that is actually outside your control. Now, you may argue that if you can communicate well and calmly and in a-

Jefferson Fisher 13:58 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 13:58 ... grounded fashion, you are actually influencing what they say, which is very clear from your work. But I love the idea that it's about gaining control over ourselves. Because I guess another way of looking at it, or I'd love your perspective on this, is it's clear to me that we see the world through the state of our nervous system, right? So if we're stressed, we're gonna interpret emails a certain way, right? So people, for example, if they've had a well-rested weekend where they've not worked, and they've switched off, and they've done whatever with their family, they can read an email on Monday morning and be pretty calm when they-

Jefferson Fisher 14:40 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 14:40 ... read it. They could read that same email on a Friday afternoon after a busy week at work and interpret the email completely differently. The email hasn't changed. What's changed is the state of their nervous system, and I kind of feel that applies to communication, whereby you're gonna communicate... And you do write about this. You're gonna communicate in a way that reflects the state of your nervous system. So if you're busy, stressed, tired, that, unless you have a high degree of self-awareness-

Jefferson Fisher 15:12 Right

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 15:12 ... it's gonna come out through your voice.

Jefferson Fisher 15:14 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 15:14 Right? So that thing about control is like, this is about self-awareness and controlling ourselves, right?

Jefferson Fisher 15:21 Right. It is the sense of anytime we have disagreement, have that friction, the dissonance in a conversation, we quickly return to this state of competition. We wanna win, and we see it as a, a threat. Any little opinion that is different from our own, our body likes to treat it as a, as a threat. We go, "No, no, no, no. That's not... They need to agree with me," 'cause if not, then it doesn't feel comfortable. If not, then it feels like they're trying to undermine me. They're saying I'm wrong. I don't like to be wrong. I'm not wrong. And we start to try and control that narrative. "No, no, no, I need to say something so compelling that you're gonna have to agree with me," or, "I'm gonna say something that is so snappy, so, um, clap back, so powerful that you're gonna go, 'Oh my gosh, you're so right. How could I ever imagine any other opinion than the one that you have?'" And so we try and, and, and force that. Uh, that's, that's where we go wrong, is we try and force and control that conversation. Instead, when you start to control yourself, you, you also sound like you're in control, and those who sound like they're in control are the ones that are listened to and the ones that are-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 16:29 Hmm

Jefferson Fisher 16:30 ... that lead. These are the ones that have the calm energy that people go, "I don't know what they have, but I like it." That... You know what? That sounds more reasonable. That's what's wild to me, is you say, what, what sounds reasonable? It's typically the person who just sounds with their voice more reasonable versus somebody who... Th- uh, the words matter far less to me than the way that you sound and the way that you make people feel. That's, that's the heart of the, the communication.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 17:03 Yeah. Now, what you just said was super powerful, right? So I imagine some people are gonna hear that and be thinking about the last disagreement they had with their partner-

Jefferson Fisher 17:18 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 17:19 ... or their spouse, right? That's often where people go to, or their parents, whatever it might be.

Jefferson Fisher 17:23 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 17:23 Right? And what I love about how you teach this in this chapter is you talk about this three-step process, right? Your first word is your breath. Your first thought is a quick scan, and your first conversation is a small talk.

Jefferson Fisher 17:42 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 17:43 Can we focus a little bit on breathing through the lens of conflict and communication and the importance of the breath when we're communicating?

Jefferson Fisher 17:53 Yeah. Anybody who's listening and loves your podcast, which you have an amazing podcast, by the way, is that the breath, they're familiar with that. They, they know the benefits of it. What I'm going to encourage them to do is understand the benefits of in your, your actual conversation, how you can use the breath in your communication to lead to better outcomes. What happens in disagreements is we tend to hold our breath. In fact, I would even be willing to say that a lot of people hold their breath more than they think.They might be very stressed out. Maybe they're overwhelmed at work, they're scrolling through emails or th- listening to-- You might be listening to us right now while you're driving, and you're worried about your workday, and you're holding your breath without you thinking about it. What happens? It puts you in a low-grade state of anxiety. You might all of a sudden go, [inhales] "Oh," you realize, "Oh, I'm not breathing." And your body's telling you that you're feeling like you're, you're drowning in some sense-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 18:46 Mm

Jefferson Fisher 18:46 ... 'cause in a, in a way, you are kind of suffocating yourself. Well, breath and communication slows things down. If you wanna control the moment, if you wanna sound like you have more control, and you wanna have more better control over the outcome and the influence of it, let your breath be the first word that you say. Meaning wherever your first word would be in your response. Let's say you said something to me that I didn't like, or really it could be anything, but something that's gonna require actual thought, something ab-above just the casual, "How's it going? What's going on?" We often just feel like I have to have that rapid response. I need to be right there. I need to step on the end of your sentence, and I need to talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, talk. Where the actual power is, is where the first word would be, I put a breath in its place. Why? Because it gives us time. When you slow things down, it controls the moment more. Which one sounds like somebody who's someone who you want to listen to and follow? Somebody who says, reacts and goes, "Look, I already told you I, I, I'm not going to do that." "I already told you I'm not going to do that." Same words.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 20:06 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 20:07 Which one sounds like somebody you don't wanna mess with? [chuckles] Which is one somebody who sounds like, "You know what? I could follow that guy or girl. I could follow this person. Uh, this is somebody who sounds balanced, grounded, in control."

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 20:18 Yeah. There's a gravitas about it, isn't there?

Jefferson Fisher 20:20 Absolutely. Yeah. The first voice sounds like, "I'm grasping for control. I need it. Give it to me. I'm, I'm not in control. I need it." The other person sounds like, "No, no, no, I, I've never lost it. I'm, I'm right here."

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 20:31 Th-this also speaks to non-verbal communication, doesn't it?

Jefferson Fisher 20:35 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 20:35 Because it's, it's what is the energy that I'm giving off as I'm having this conversation, because people respond to energy, don't they? They respond to stress.

Jefferson Fisher 20:48 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 20:48 Like people, you know, humans are a social species. We, we can mirror what's going on around us. Our nervous systems kind of respond to the nervous systems of the people around us. And so, you know, when you're able to, I guess, master your nervous system-

Jefferson Fisher 21:06 Right

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 21:06 ... you know, maybe master's too strong a term. I mean, if you can, amazing.

Jefferson Fisher 21:09 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 21:10 At least gain some degree of control over it, your communication is automatically going to get better.

Jefferson Fisher 21:16 Yes, because you, you never get emotionally flooded. I mean, we've had these, uh, arguments with people in our life, typically the ones we love most, where they become shouting matches, and to where you're shouting, and you don't even really know what you're saying at some point. It, it doesn't matter if it's logical or not. It doesn't matter if it makes sense. You just know you're reacting because there's a threat. You either want to... I mean, that's why our, our fists clench 'cause your body's ready to-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 21:45 Yeah

Jefferson Fisher 21:46 ... ready to swing. You may not throw a punch, but you're gonna say a hurtful word. You, you want it to cut. You want that word to sting. Same thing. Or, or people who want to-- If you've been on the phone and somebody just hangs up while you're talking or they instantly wanna leave the room, that-that's the, that's the flight. You find that in every conversation that you have. And the person that controls their nervous system, which to me is the, the number one way to do that in conversation, is your breath because it slows things down, it keeps the analytical side engaged. You know this, and, uh, a lot of your listeners, of course, know this. It is something that can improve their conversation because it never sounds like you're lost. It never sounds like you're unsure of yourself or that you're grasping or desperate or that you've lost your sense of-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 22:30 Yeah

Jefferson Fisher 22:31 ... of control. And I'm very curious. I'll be asking you of, as a, as a doctor, a lot of the doctor friends that I have, they see things as kind of this triage of like if, then, if, this, of like a bunch of-- At least this is my very simplistic version of it. They see it as, uh, kind of the roots of a, a tree, of how if you can't go here, you go here, you're finding the symptoms. Do you find that kind of mentality helpful in communication or hurtful in communication? 'Cause I know doctors that some are good at conversation. There are others that are not at all.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 23:06 Yeah. I mean, there's a couple of ways to answer that, Jefferson. So firstly, one of the things [chuckles] that I really resonated with when reading your book is you saying that in law school you don't really learn how to communicate.

Jefferson Fisher 23:20 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 23:20 You learn the rules of law-

Jefferson Fisher 23:21 Correct

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 23:21 ... but not actually how to do it in, in real life. And my wife, who, when I met her, was a criminal barrister in London, um, she said the same thing here. They don't teach you actually how to do it, how to be a good-

Jefferson Fisher 23:34 No

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 23:34 ... advocate in the courtroom. You gotta-

Jefferson Fisher 23:37 Right

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 23:37 ... figure that stuff out yourself. The same thing in medicine. I don't think they really teach us how to be a good communicator, you know? And I think some doctors are pretty poor at communicating.

Jefferson Fisher 23:46 [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 23:46 Some are exceptional.

Jefferson Fisher 23:48 Right.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 23:48 Right? Yeah. Everyone's passed their medical school exams-

Jefferson Fisher 23:51 Right

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 23:51 ... but-

Jefferson Fisher 23:52 Everyone's smart. Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 23:53 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 23:54 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 23:54 By those metrics.

Jefferson Fisher 23:55 Right.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 23:55 But not everyone can, I guess, communicate effectively or influence their patients positively because of their communication skills.

Jefferson Fisher 24:06 Right.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 24:06 So when you were talking about this sort of flow chart, I don't know if that's in terms of communication or to get to a diagnosis.

Jefferson Fisher 24:14 Yes. Diagnosis.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 24:16 Diagnosis. So my view on medicine is perhaps a little bit different, okay? So-I think one of the problems with the way we practice medicine, especially given the health landscape of the countries around the world today, is that, you know, too much of what we're taught about is literally what are the symptoms? What bucket can we get them into so we can make the diagnosis? Once we've got the diagnosis, we can get onto the treatments.

Jefferson Fisher 24:47 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 24:48 And the treatment is usually, not always, but usually pharmaceutical medications.

Jefferson Fisher 24:52 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 24:54 Today, 80 to 90% of what we see in medicine is related to our collective modern lifestyles. So what I'm interested in most when I have someone I'm talking to about their health is what is going on in their life, what are their behaviors, what are their lifestyle habits that are resulting in those current symptoms? And if I can accurately identify that and help them change it, I'm gonna help them relieve a variety of different symptoms. Does that make sense so far?

Jefferson Fisher 25:29 It does, because you're-- what I hear you saying is there is the tendency to only address the symptoms-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 25:37 Yeah

Jefferson Fisher 25:37 ... not address the causes. I feel it very much the same. So it's-- we're at a wonderful point in time, and it's a wonderful time to be alive, of that we're starting to realize, hey, we're only addressing the symptoms-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 25:51 Yeah

Jefferson Fisher 25:52 ... of things. I'm not addressing the causes of things. Same in communication. Symptoms of communication sound, sound like, "I d- I don't understand you. Why would you say that to me?" And we're only yelling, we're only shouting, we're only saying things.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 26:06 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 26:06 We're... Or, or the symptom could be, "Oh, uh, I'm, I'm so sorry. Uh, uh..." "No, no, no, that's okay. You, you just tell me." And I, I just feel like, "No, no, no." And they're being extra polite. They're being people pleasers. They're, they're-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 26:16 Mm

Jefferson Fisher 26:16 ... they're either being super aggressive or they're being completely deferential. One says, "I don't respect you." The other says, "I don't respect myself." And we-- they're both symptoms of the same type of thing of the cause is really inherently what's going on behind the, the surface when you communicate. It's not that you left the dish in the sink, right?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 26:38 It never is.

Jefferson Fisher 26:39 It's never it is. It's, it's something that happened earlier that morning or something that happened the night before. It's, it's hardly ever the issue. My dad would teach me often, "The issue is rarely the issue," is-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 26:51 Yeah

Jefferson Fisher 26:51 ... what he would tell me. It's not, "Your mom's not mad about this. She's mad because she's afraid of X, Y, and Z. That's what you're not hearing." And so when you can realize that a lot of the causes are fears, insecurities, things that happened long before they ever met you and walked in your door, those are the causes to be addressed.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 27:12 Yeah, I mean, it's just amazing to hear that you were getting taught that stuff by your father, right?

Jefferson Fisher 27:16 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 27:16 Because, yes, you're a, from a family of trial lawyers. It's kind of what you guys do, right?

Jefferson Fisher 27:22 [laughs] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 27:23 Um, but the goal in life, I believe, in most things, is when you get behind the words, behind the symptoms.

Jefferson Fisher 27:33 Right.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 27:33 So I reflect on my entire medical career, and I realize that from a very early stage in my career, I was always trying to read what was going on behind the words. The patient comes in, and they, they're saying certain things-

Jefferson Fisher 27:50 Mm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 27:50 ... with their voice. And of course, I'm listening, and I'm interested in so the words that they're saying, but I was always interested more in what's behind these words.

Jefferson Fisher 28:00 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 28:00 Why has this person ended up here today?

Jefferson Fisher 28:02 Right.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 28:03 Right? This has been going on for years.

Jefferson Fisher 28:04 What, what led them here?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 28:05 What has happened-

Jefferson Fisher 28:06 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 28:06 ... that they've decided to take half a day off work, wait in a reception area for, like, an hour when the doctor's running late, turn up. Why? Why? Why? The, the other thing I realized about communication is how often I would see one side of a patient. So the receptionists would say, "Oh, this patient's really rude. They're really, really pushy."

Jefferson Fisher 28:28 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 28:28 Right?

Jefferson Fisher 28:28 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 28:29 But when I was with them, they were lovely.

Jefferson Fisher 28:31 Right.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 28:31 Interesting, isn't it?

Jefferson Fisher 28:32 It re- it really is. I, I teach in communication. The number one mindset to have in communication is this: have something to learn, not something to prove.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 28:42 Oh, love it.

Jefferson Fisher 28:43 Meaning, instead of saying, "They have to agree with me. They have to hear my point. They have to say why I'm right, and they have to say that they're wrong," rather than pushing that, rather than, rather than saying, "Um, I don't think you know who you're talking to," instead of that, something to learn says, "Huh, I wonder why they said that. I wonder what's going on. I wonder what's-- why would they have that reaction?" These inner-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 29:11 Mm

Jefferson Fisher 29:11 ... conversations you're having with yourself that's getting to the deeper meaning, the causes, the same type of, same type of similarities there.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 29:21 So s- yeah. So therefore, for me, following on from that, how often then do you think it's actually our egos that are getting in the way of our ability to communicate well?

Jefferson Fisher 29:35 Ego is certainly part of it. I think our fear drives it more, right? And I think that can, that can work in tandem. You fear that you are losing credibility, fear that you're falling behind, fear that you're not being, um, respected in some sense. That's where the ego comes in. I think a lot of it drives from the fear, which goes to the fight or flight. Again, I, and I'll-- uh, there's so many nuggets that I got taught, and I know that's a blessing for me and, and a, and a gift to me. My, my dad, when I would come to him with problems, he would-- and I mean this positively. I would complain about something, and he'd go, "So?" And I'd say, "Well, it..." And I'd start continuing to explain, and he'd go

30:26 So, and I mean, it continued to push the why does it matter? Why does it bother me?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 30:33 Mm-hmm.

Jefferson Fisher 30:33 What is the end goal? Instead of him getting very upset with me and agreeing with me, and you're so right, even if I was right about the issue, why am I behaving this way? So why, why did they say this? Where did this come from? And so he was always find the so. So, so... So in, in terms of a patient, patient coming in, somebody's upset about something. Okay, you, you don't feel good? So what are you feeling about that? Okay, so what are you wanting to do? So what is the outcome here? So what would make you feel best? You always continue to follow that chain, and where it typically goes is some type of fear or insecurity. Now, I'm a huge fan of Vivobarefoot shoes. I've been wearing them for about 12 years now, and one of the main reasons I love them is because when I'm wearing Vivos, I feel fully connected to the ground beneath my feet. What do we want? We want feet that move naturally, and because Vivos are wide, thin, and flexible, your foot can move in the way that it's meant to. A lot of modern shoes are stiff, they're narrow. They start to manipulate the way your foot functions. Whereas in Vivos, your feet can do what they're meant to do, and that means they help your feet become stronger. There was this trial that showed within four months of wearing Vivos, your feet are around 60% stronger. Your feet are your foundation, and when you've got problems in your feet, it goes all the way up the chain. It can go to your ankle, to your knee, to your hip, to your back, and even to your shoulder and neck. And as a doctor, I have seen back pain, hip pain, and knee pain actually start to get better when people start to wear barefoot shoes. To get 20% off your first order, go to vivobarefoot.com/livemore. I'm delighted to announce that AG1, the daily health drink that has been in my own life for over six years now, have updated and improved their formulation based upon the latest science. And to celebrate by giving my audience a very special summer offer. Some of the upgrades include more magnesium, which supports muscle function and improves the ability of your nervous system to relax, and also five strains of bacteria instead of just two to reflect the latest advances in microbiome science. It also contains key nutrients like vitamin C, biotin, niacin, vitamin B6, riboflavin, thiamine, zinc, and folate in bioavailable forms the body can easily and readily utilize, maximizing their potential benefits. Nutrition can often seem really complicated. What diet should we be following? What supplements should we be taking? And I think that's one of the main reasons I really like AG1. They make it really simple for you to be the best version of you. Over 70 ingredients, one scoop once a day for less than a cup of coffee. So if you want to support your health seven mornings a week, get started with AG1, and right now we have a very special limited time summer offer worth 58 pounds, which is around 80 US dollars. To get 10 free Travel Packs instead of the usual five and an awesome Welcome Kit containing your shaker, scoop, and canister with your first subscription, go to drinkag1.com/livemore. Yeah, it reminds me of something we get taught at medical school where someone comes in with a certain problem. Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 34:15 Or they, they're describing a certain problem or a symptom, but that's not really why they came in. And, you know, what often will happen, I don't know, a guy, a middle-aged guy will come in with a little, I don't know, mark on their leg or something, or a slight ankle sprain from playing sport or something, right?

Jefferson Fisher 34:34 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 34:34 And you deal with it, and then on the way out, as they're closing the door saying bye, "Oh, yeah, Doc, you know, also just worried actually, um, my uncle once had a tumor in their bone, in their foot. You know it's not that, is it?" Or, or whatever it might be.

Jefferson Fisher 34:51 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 34:51 Yeah?

Jefferson Fisher 34:51 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 34:51 So the real reason they were there is 'cause they were worried they might have cancer.

Jefferson Fisher 34:54 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 34:55 But for whatever reason, they didn't feel able to say that. They didn't... Maybe they didn't want to say it. Maybe the doctor didn't create the right environment for them to say it. Who- whatever, for whatever reason, they didn't feel able to say it, but on the way out-

Jefferson Fisher 35:08 Right

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 35:08 ... as you think you've finished, and you're going, you know, in your head you're just trying to, you know, make the notes.

Jefferson Fisher 35:12 [laughs] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 35:13 Move on to the next patient. It's kind of interesting, isn't it?

Jefferson Fisher 35:15 Yeah, it is. It is. And it's, uh, I, I find from the friends that I have that are doctors, th- they, they tell me that so many people just want to be told, "You're okay." Yeah. At the end of the day, they just... They have a fear, uh, and they, it- it's, "Oh, I, I, you know, I have this kind of pain in my arm, and it comes and goes, and a- am I okay? Am I gonna be all right?" And it's the same way in communication. We find that, at least I, what I hear when I am having my conversations, especially in my profession, you have people who say things and have certain opinions of things, and they just want to be told, "That's okay."

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 35:52 Mm-hmm.

Jefferson Fisher 35:52 Even if I disagree. So let's say you and I are, we're at odds over an issue, and instead of me going, "No, I don't... Look, I don't get your opinion. Like, why in the world would you do..." That's one way to handle it. Now, what's gonna happen? I'm telling you, you're not okay. That's what I'm communicating in that, in that conversation. But what if I started it with, "Rangan, I don't, I don't need you to agree with me. You're free to disagree with me," and I give you my point then. Now what's gonna happen? Now you're actually listening to what I said. Now you don't feel the pressure. Now you don't feel... Now you're s... What I'm communicating is you're okay.

36:28 Just as you are-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 36:29 Yeah

Jefferson Fisher 36:29 ... in this conversation. Your opinions, how you feel, totally okay. I'm gonna tell you something of what I see. And that kind of stuff is going to instantly smooth things out rather than the feeling and telling them, "You're not okay," in the conversation. That feeds the fear.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 36:42 Yeah. Man, it's so interesting, this stuff. It's-

Jefferson Fisher 36:46 No, it's fun. Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 36:46 ... it's really fun because, you know, going back to the start, why do I think the quality of our communication improves the quality of, of our life in every single aspect?

Jefferson Fisher 36:56 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 36:57 I think it's obvious to people intuitively, yeah, that's gonna improve your relationships, right? Your relationship with your partner, with your work colleagues. If you can communicate better-

Jefferson Fisher 37:05 Mm-hmm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 37:06 ... clearly that will help your relationships. But I also make the case that it will help improve your health because... And again, I don't know if anyone's ever put this to you before, Jefferson, that your book may well be a health book.

Jefferson Fisher 37:20 [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 37:20 Okay?

Jefferson Fisher 37:20 Awesome. I'd be honored. Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 37:21 Right, right. And I'll, I'll explain to you why I believe that to be the case. 80 to 90% of what we see these days as doctors is in some way related to our collective modern lifestyles.

Jefferson Fisher 37:33 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 37:33 Okay? So the natural, um, sort of follow on from that is that if we can change the way that we are living with certain behaviors and habits, it's gonna have an impact on our health, right? But why is it that so many people, despite knowing that too much sugar, right, is not helping them, they still continue to do it? Everyone says you just need more knowledge. Well, the knowledge is out there, right? Most people are trying to give up sugar or reduce their sugar intake, kind of know already that they should be doing that, right? Or a lot of people do. It's not necessarily more external knowledge they need. I believe it's they need more internal knowledge. So how does that relate to communication? Well, I believe, let's, using the example of sugar, that sugar is often used to help people cope with stress. What is one of the biggest sources of stress? Our relationships.

Jefferson Fisher 38:32 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 38:33 What is one of the biggest problems with our relationships? We are unable to communicate well even with the people that we love.

Jefferson Fisher 38:41 Right.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 38:41 Right? So I make the case, and I really, really do believe this strongly, that... 'Cause, uh, that's the other thing about your book, right? If you don't know how to communicate well, I think the tools are gonna help you start doing that.

Jefferson Fisher 38:53 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 38:54 But there seems to be this very close relationship between our ability to regulate our nervous system and the way that we communicate. So yeah, you can either become a master in your nervous system, and then hopefully that will naturally lead to better communication, which I think can work, or you can apply these tools, which will automatically help you regulate your nervous system better.

Jefferson Fisher 39:17 Right.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 39:17 Does that make sense?

Jefferson Fisher 39:18 It does. Yeah. So if you want better health, instead of treating the symptoms, we're gonna t- treat the causes. One of the causes is the communication in your life.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 39:29 Exactly.

Jefferson Fisher 39:29 Period. How... Because if, if you ever question that, ask this question. Have you ever had a, an argument with your spouse? How do you perform that next day? And you haven't resolved that conflict yet. You, you're emotionally up and down.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 39:42 How do you sleep?

Jefferson Fisher 39:43 Yeah. You don't. You, you... I mean, you just... You, you... Yeah, poor sleep. You, uh, how many times you've had bad conversations that have led to depression? And I'm talking not just communication with other people. We're talking communication within yourself, not the conversations you have externally.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 39:56 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 39:56 How, how do you talk to yourself?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 39:58 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 39:58 What's the communication that you have with yourself? That negative self-talk leads to a state of depression. It says, "I am not worthy enough. I am less. I am hesitant. I am an inconvenience to everybody." That is a place that is only going to lead you downwards. That all affects your health in some way. So I absolutely agree with this hypothesis that if you want a better health, if you want a better life, one of the causes of that is a better conversation.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 40:26 Yeah. Wow. I, I love it.

Jefferson Fisher 40:28 Done. Talk-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 40:28 Done. That's it.

Jefferson Fisher 40:28 I think we can just wrap it up.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 40:29 That's it.

Jefferson Fisher 40:29 Yeah. It was a great podcast.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 40:30 That's it.

Jefferson Fisher 40:30 Yeah. [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 40:30 We should, we should be in the... We should put it in the health section of the bookstore now.

Jefferson Fisher 40:34 There we go. Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 40:34 Move it away from, I don't know, smart thinking.

Jefferson Fisher 40:36 There we go.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 40:36 Put it in the health section.

Jefferson Fisher 40:37 There we go.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 40:38 You have these, um, powerful life lessons, okay, in the book for our communication. I wanna go through some of them. Now, some of them you've, you kinda touched on already, but I- I'd love to go through some of these bit by bit to really give practical take-homes for people.

Jefferson Fisher 40:57 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 40:57 Okay? Now, one of the lessons is that silence is power.

Jefferson Fisher 41:01 Right.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 41:02 Why?

Jefferson Fisher 41:04 It is the one thing that someone cannot throw back in your face. It, it's... Silence can never be misquoted. Silence is not something that you can, somebody can create anything out of, so to speak. Silence gives you the power to choose. It gives you options. Is this somebody I wanna talk to? Is this something I want to respond to? Is this something that's worth my time? Is this person worth my time? It, it, it... The first thing to know about standing up for yourself is knowing, is this person worth getting out of my chair for? It is silence that puts things on pause, because you can't make me say anything I don't want to say. I can physically grab you, and I can physically manipulate you, but I cannot do that with your words. I cannot force you to say something without forcing you physically. Silence is your tool that you can have, and it's wonderful in the sense of you use it for difficult conversations. You use it for meaningful conversations. Let's say you're sharing something with me that's very deep, and you've had a very hard day. I don't need to s- fix it. I just need to sit with you.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 42:20 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 42:20 And in that silence, holding that with... The, the therapy world would say holding that space for you, just sitting in here with you.I don't have to say anything, but at the same time, I'm saying everything.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 42:32 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 42:32 Now, let's say you're saying something mean to me, and you say something that really hurts, and rather than responding, I just say nothing. Um, that sends another message. That's another option that I get to have, and now you have to hear those words echo back, and you have to do something with it. That's why silence is such a powerful tool.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 42:53 Could it be deemed as being aggressive if we use silence?

Jefferson Fisher 42:56 You can weaponize it.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 42:58 Oh.

Jefferson Fisher 42:58 Yeah. So you could-- uh, that turns into stonewalling. That turns into people ghosting-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 43:01 Yeah

Jefferson Fisher 43:01 ... for no reason. Yeah, uh, stonewalling, in my opinion, is weaponized silence. You are doing it as a, as a punishment. It's punitive. It's a sense of control. If you try to-- I'm not talking about the gray rock type of stuff, where it's you have to protect yourself. I'm talking you're some- you're dealing with somebody who's a tox-toxic personality, and they just go silent on you and as a term of punishment. They want you to come groveling back. Not until you say, "Oh, I'm so sorry, can you please come back to me?" will they, you know-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 43:32 Mm-hmm

Jefferson Fisher 43:32 ... graciously, in their mercy, go, "Yes, I guess you can talk to me again." So there is absolutely a way to be taking it too far, as with anything.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 43:42 Yeah. It kind of sort of relates back to a couple of things we've already touched on. One was when you were talking about maybe you're in a difficult conversation.

Jefferson Fisher 43:50 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 43:51 Before you start reacting and just blurting out words-

Jefferson Fisher 43:53 Right

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 43:54 ... you're saying t-that first word is your breath.

Jefferson Fisher 43:57 Right.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 43:57 Okay? So you're-- What, is that an inhale?

Jefferson Fisher 43:59 Yeah, so it's, um... You would know this as a physiological sigh. It's where it's a double inhalation, where-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 44:05 Yeah

Jefferson Fisher 44:05 ... it's about three seconds in through your nose, two seconds in again at the top, and then all out through your nose again. Now, y- we can do that in a sense of very exaggerated. And I'm not, not talking about the sigh of, like, m- what my five-year-old would do of, like, "Ugh." Like, not, not that type of-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 44:21 Yeah

Jefferson Fisher 44:21 ... [chuckles] not that type of breath. But you want to be able to use it, and you can do it silently. Anytime right before you say something that you need to catch a moment or if somebody's saying something that's-- you can tell you're-- it's-- you don't like and you're getting worked up. You ever heard somebody, like, making an opinion or saying something you don't like, and what happens? You-- Our bodies go , like we, we-- Everything we don't like it, we kind of start to seize up.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 44:46 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 44:46 We start-- We take a big breath. We're like, "Oh, okay, I don't... I'm, I'm-- I don't-- I gotta, I gotta get ready," 'cause why? We're about ready to unleash all of our, our words.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 44:54 Hmm.

Jefferson Fisher 44:54 And so when you hold your breath, that's why your breath has really nowhere to go except to yell.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 45:00 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 45:01 Often, it, it decreases communication. It's the same way of, you know how, uh, at least if you're trying to find directions and you're trying to find a house and you have blaring music, you have to, like, turn down the music so you can... You're like, "Let me turn down this music so I can see." It's kind of that same mentality-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 45:17 Yeah

Jefferson Fisher 45:17 ... of when somebody's yelling, you can't really listen.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 45:20 Yeah, it's, it's this whole we see the world through the state of our nervous system, right? That person said that thing that you didn't like, and if you start to react and hold your breath, which may be understandable-

Jefferson Fisher 45:32 Yes

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 45:32 ... right? You're changing the state of your nervous system, so everything is coming inward. Your focus is coming inward. You are getting prepared to fight.

Jefferson Fisher 45:40 Right.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 45:40 So of course, the next words you say are gonna come out with a certain energy.

Jefferson Fisher 45:45 You got it.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 45:46 So I love that sort of idea that you make it... And y- you know, that whole section that, in, in that chapter, you do sort of walk people through how you can practice this breath and get to the point whereby you're doing it naturally in conversation, where the person doesn't even know that you're doing it.

Jefferson Fisher 46:02 Yeah, abs-- And I'm happy to do it right now if you wanna go through.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 46:04 Okay. All right. Okay.

Jefferson Fisher 46:05 So if you're listening right now, let's, let's, let's practice this. I call this a conversational breath, and it's a breath that you can use, and nobody's really gonna know that you're doing it. It's-- There's nothing special. It's just the ch- it's the choice to be intentional with your breath, and let's do it together. So it's all gonna be through your nose, and it's gonna be a double inhale, meaning we're gonna inhale twice. Ready? So if you're listening, we're gonna go three seconds in through your nose, two more at the top, and then all out through your nose. Now, just listening to us right now, your shoulders should have dropped just a little bit.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 46:36 Mm-hmm.

Jefferson Fisher 46:36 You're gonna feel just a little bit calmer. That's your go-to when somebody is saying something you don't like or, uh, you're about to respond. So right now, I want you, Rangan, to continue to do the conversational breath, and I'm gonna continue to say some things to you. So Rangan, I, yes, I understand you have a podcast, and yeah, it's a health podcast. In fact, it's the number one health podcast in the world. But you know what? I don't know if you're doing as well as you need to. I mean, you could be... These lights, have you seen these cameras? I don't know if I even really like these, these microphones. Now, see, as you're talking to me right now, now, see, I don't even realize that you're breathing any differently than anybody else. And so anytime somebody's saying something that's agitating to you in that sense, it's allowing you to see the depth, right? It's allowing you to see the cause rather than getting worked up and holding your breath to fight the symptoms.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 47:23 Yeah, it's, it's amazing 'cause you're, you're slowing everything down, right? So, you know, using that analogy of being in the car again-

Jefferson Fisher 47:30 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 47:31 ... um, if your car is going fast down the street, you're not gonna be able to take everything in, right? Because everything's going by quickly.

Jefferson Fisher 47:39 Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 47:40 If you slow down your car and go down the street, you can suddenly see everything clearly. I saw that number, I saw that number. You know, that's what's going. There's a cat coming. Whatever it might be, right?

Jefferson Fisher 47:48 Right.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 47:48 So when we slow everything down, our perspective is different. We see more clearly. So clearly in a conversation-

Jefferson Fisher 47:56 Yes

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 47:57 ... especially a conversation that perhaps isn't going the way that you want it to-

Jefferson Fisher 48:00 Right

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 48:01 ... if you're able to slow things down-

Jefferson Fisher 48:04 Yes

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 48:05 ... you're gonna be more present. You're gonna, you know, you're going to have that separation between the stimulus, the words you don't like, and the response you're about to give.

Jefferson Fisher 48:14 Exactly. Time has a way of sifting out priority. We all know we've had these moments in conversations that feel really intense with that friend at the café. The next day, you know what? That conversation really didn't matter all that much.Or a week goes by and you go, "Why did I ever react that way?"

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 48:34 But in the moment you felt that it did.

Jefferson Fisher 48:36 At, in the moment it was everything. And then, or you get that email, you re- read that email at work, and you wanna... It gets you all worked up and you're ready to send that, that nasty response back. But something happens and you go, "You, you know what? I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna put this down." You read it again the next day. You go, "That's not even worth my response."

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 48:54 Exactly.

Jefferson Fisher 48:55 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 48:55 That, that's the power of silence-

Jefferson Fisher 48:57 Absolutely

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 48:57 ... and pause, right?

Jefferson Fisher 48:58 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 48:59 It's kind of interesting. You are teaching people how to have better conversations. But at the same time, I would imagine, and I think you've hinted at this already, that you've always been pretty good at communicating.

Jefferson Fisher 49:13 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 49:13 Yeah. Okay. I would probably say a similar thing about myself. I think as a doctor, I feel that's always been one of my strengths with my patients, my ability to really listen, pay attention, and then communicate effectively with them. I don't think I was taught how to do that.

Jefferson Fisher 49:31 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 49:31 Maybe I picked it up from the people around me. But although I feel I was intuitively quite a good communicator, I feel I've got better over the years. Okay? So I feel it's a skill that although I was pretty good at, I think I've got better at it.

Jefferson Fisher 49:47 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 49:48 Now, what has helped me get better at it? I think if I think about my marriage, you know, I'm, as we're having this conversation, I'm almost... It's almost 18 years since I was married. Okay?

Jefferson Fisher 50:01 Congratulations.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 50:02 Since I got married.

Jefferson Fisher 50:02 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 50:03 Yeah. And, you know, our marriage is fantastic. And I think one of the things that has made it more fantastic now than maybe in the early days is collectively, our ability to communicate as a couple has got better.

Jefferson Fisher 50:18 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 50:19 And certainly on a personal level, I feel I've really, um, learnt some new skills about how to communicate better within my relationship. But I also believe that this podcast has helped me become a better communicator. Okay. So, um, as you know, this is a long-form podcast. Okay? It's long-form intentionally. I'm not interested in quick, fancy sound bites. I want deep, meaningful conversations with people that I'm curious about.

Jefferson Fisher 50:49 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 50:49 That's always been the name of the game on this show, and it continues to be today. And every summer, I stop the podcast for six weeks. Okay? It's the children are on summer holidays. My wife is the producer of the podcast. And so for us it's really important to have some time away from this show. Even though the whole world is saying, "You can't stop. You need to keep going." That's a separate matter, right?

Jefferson Fisher 51:11 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 51:12 But we take a break every summer. And every summer while I'm on break, I reflect on, what can I improve? What can I do differently? How can I make the show even better? You know, how can I become a better communicator? And a few years ago, the insight I had over the summer break was to embrace silence more. Right? So you talk in your book about how silence can be a superpower, and I would say maybe three or four summers ago, I came back and intentionally started to utilize silence much more, and I think that's enhanced the quality of the conversations. And so my thinking was very much, Rangan, you don't have to rush. Right? There's, there's no time pressure here. You've got all the time in the world. In a natural conversation, because I never regard these as interviews, right?

Jefferson Fisher 52:06 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 52:06 If you want an interview, I'm the wrong podcast. Right?

Jefferson Fisher 52:09 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 52:09 These are all about conversations. And I realized that, well, in real-life conversation, there are sometimes pauses. Sometimes the next thing to say isn't there at the tip of your tongue. Sometimes you have to kind of pause and reflect and let what was just said land. You also have to trust yourself, right? You go, "Okay. I don't need to think about the next thing I'm gonna say. I can just pay attention to what Jefferson is saying. And then when he finishes, I need to trust that the right thing to come next will come out of my mouth," right? So that's rather long-winded of me trying to say that when I [chuckles] read you write about silence being a superpower, I thought, I love that, because I feel that's one of the things that I've really embraced on this show, and I think it's one of the things that has really improved the quality of conversations on this show.

Jefferson Fisher 53:03 I think that's spot on. For, for your listeners, I w- I would ask two questions. Number one, have you ever really given thought to how you're communicating? H- how, how your voice is representing you? Not just how you sound, that's personal to you, but the words that you choose. More than likely, you've spent some amount of money on a better health. Maybe you've changed a diet. Maybe you've read some books. Maybe you've gone to some conference. Whatever. We invest a lot in a lot of things. But have you ever actually invested in the thing you do every day? And that is getting disciplined about how you communicate, actually asking yourself how do you communicate. That's question number one. Question number two is, why are you rushing? Why are you rushing? I feel like we rush all the time. I mean, I know I rush my, my son sometimes. I'm like, "All right, come on. Get your shoes on. Come on, get your shoes on. We gotta go." To what? A kid's birthday party that, uh, y- you don't have to be on time for? I mean, it's, it's not the end of the world. Why do we f- always feel like we have to rush, rush, rush? There is something so beautiful about having a conversation with your best friend that has no time constraints-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 54:29 Yeah

Jefferson Fisher 54:30 ... that has no rush. And you can say something, and just like you said, you're able to just sit with it, land-Let their words sit and just appreciate the moment that you're able to connect with someone. And beautiful, wonderful things happen when you simply slow down the conversation. And that's exactly, if you wanna have better conversation, you slow it down. If you want to deal with difficult conversation, if you're really worried about a conversation you're about to have, slow it down. I promise you, you're gonna end up having a better outcome.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 55:04 Yeah. I love that. Let's, just while, while we're talking about silence, right? And the, the incredible power of silence in communication, going back to those three tools to stay in control of the moment, I kind of feel that all three of them in some way speak to the power of silence. I don't know if you would necessarily agree with that, but-

Jefferson Fisher 55:25 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 55:25 ... those three tools were your first word is your breath, your first thought is a quick scan, and your first conversation is a small talk, right? Let's just go through that, and maybe we can go through that in the context of an individual who's maybe just about to enter conflict with their partner.

Jefferson Fisher 55:43 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 55:43 This is super common, right?

Jefferson Fisher 55:45 Right.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 55:45 So because if we can do it through that, I'm hoping that someone can, you know, next time they're in that scenario, maybe in an hour's time, maybe tomorrow, hopefully they can go, "Okay. All right. Let me just remember what Jefferson said," right? Because I think, I think they kind of speak to silence as well.

Jefferson Fisher 56:01 Each one does, yeah, and they're simple, quick tools and different ways of regulating your nervous system. So let's put it in two different scenarios for the listeners. One, we can have a, a personal relationship with your, with your significant other. The other is a workplace where somebody-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 56:17 Okay

Jefferson Fisher 56:17 ... is asking you something of an important project, whatever it is. It's gonna be the same outcome either way. So these tools that I provide in the first How to Say Things With Control ultimately are different ways of regulating your nervous system. First word being your breath. In either context, it allows you to, where somebody's accusing you of something, you're able to slowly use your breath and kind of understand, keeping yourself from getting emotionally flooded. It's nothing, nothing more simple than that. You're using your breath to feel a little bit more grounded in the conversation, just like we did a minute ago.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 56:50 Mm.

Jefferson Fisher 56:50 Now, a quick scan of what is what I call a quick, it's a quick scan. It's nothing than asking yourself, "What am I feeling in this moment?" And I like to use the phrase, "I can tell." So let's say you're in a conversation with your significant other. Maybe it's over the dishes, and all of a sudden it blends into the laundry and who does what, and you don't keep up your fair share or whatever it is. Instead of s- leading with you and you never and you always-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 57:16 [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 57:17 ... which I promise you is only going to add another layer of c- of argument about whether you always or never do it.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 57:25 [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 57:25 And then somebody's gonna say, "Well, give me an example. Name the last time that I..." And then it's just a competition of who can, has the better memory. And of course you have the better memory. I don't remember. [laughs] So instead, a quick scan is saying, "I can tell I'm getting defensive. I can tell I'm getting upset. I can tell I'm not ready for this conversation." So many times we push conversation on our timeframe and not the other person's. And so if you're feeling pressured in a conversation, say, uh, instead of reacting and getting defensive and emoting on that, it's to be able to say, "I can, I can tell I'm getting upset. I can tell I'm feeling sad. I can tell that's making me, that's making me angry."

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 58:05 So step one is you take that slow intentional breath-

Jefferson Fisher 58:09 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 58:09 ... which helps to calm things down-

Jefferson Fisher 58:11 Right

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 58:11 ... and regulate your nervous system. Step two is this quick scan-

Jefferson Fisher 58:15 Right

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 58:15 ... that you're just going through your body. What, where, where's there tightness? What am I actually feeling?

Jefferson Fisher 58:20 Exactly.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 58:20 And then you use that scan to say, "I can tell I'm feeling something."

Jefferson Fisher 58:27 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 58:27 So that's a way of communicating with the other person. So for example, it might be, "I can tell that I'm feeling a bit wound up at the moment, so I don't think it's the best time to have this conversation."

Jefferson Fisher 58:38 I can tell I'm not feeling myself. I mean, that right there is a, a powerful tool in, in, in marital relationships. Instead of saying, "What's wrong with you?" Instead of forcing that, it's the, "I, I can tell I'm, I'm feeling off right now. I can, I can tell I'm tired."

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 58:54 So okay. So if you just say that phrase, could your partner then not go, "Okay, but what's that got to do with what I just said?" Like, so I'm try- I'm trying to just play devil's advocate there.

Jefferson Fisher 59:04 Yeah. No, I love it.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 59:05 So you're, you're, you're using that to tell your partner or your work colleague or whoever it might be that you have a certain emotional state.

Jefferson Fisher 59:16 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 59:17 But then do you need to go the next step and then say, w- what is the implication of that emotional state?

Jefferson Fisher 59:22 Uh, so it depends. Maybe, maybe that is the goal of saying... Let's say you just got done with a full busy day. You've done a bunch of podcasts, you're doing work, and you, uh, you got the kids in bed and you're finally at home, and all of a sudden your spouse wants to have the most important conversation ever right in that moment, and you're just, you're drained. You're tired. And instead of going, "You know what? Look, I don't really wanna talk about... Can you just..." And you're starting to react negatively in that conversation. You're starting to really just be negative on the whole moment. Instead saying like, "I, I can tell I am, I am not ready for this conversation. If we, if we can, if we can talk about this in the morning, I'm gonna be a whole lot better for it," or, "If we can push this just a f- a few minutes." Or let's say it's in the work context and you can say like, "I, I can tell that I'm feeling uncertain about this," or, "I can tell I still need a little bit more-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:00:08 Mm

Jefferson Fisher 1:00:09 ... clarity here." It's not, it's not saying, "I don't wanna have conversation." And I'm not saying you need to have that every time you have a conversation. This is simply a tool of if you feel like you're having an emotion in that moment, when you claim it, you control it. And so whenever you can say it out loud, it's much better than behaving on that. So let's say you say something that gets me defensive and I can tell. Rather than me going, "Me? N- No, no. What about you? Oh, you think that..." And I'm starting to react on that defensiveness. Rather than me saying... You say that same thing and I go-I can tell that's getting me defensive. That right there is a wonderful way of just, like, writing it down and putting it on a piece of paper. Now we know that that is not something I'm, I'm gonna be talking about. And, in fact, it's at least more information for the people who's, who you're talking to. So it's not that... It's not a one, two, three. It's not you have to first word is your breath, then you have to do a quick scan, then you have to do a, a small talk. These are all different tools that if you're feeling something, overwhelmed in that moment, it's much better to say with your spouse, "I can tell I'm feeling overwhelmed"-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:01:15 Yeah

Jefferson Fisher 1:01:15 ... than, than reacting on that overwhelmed feeling.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:01:18 Yeah. I, I love that. It's so powerful, and I would say that that alone is possibly one of the most influential things I've changed in my marriage in terms of the way I communicate with my wife-

Jefferson Fisher 1:01:34 Mm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:01:34 ... is it's really about self-awareness, isn't it? And the example you gave actually [laughs] was not an uncommon scenario in the sense that my wife and I have some, have quite different body clocks. I love to go to bed early and get up early. She would rather go to bed late and wake up a bit later, right? And so-

Jefferson Fisher 1:01:51 I'm team wife, so-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:01:52 You're team wife?

Jefferson Fisher 1:01:52 Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:01:53 Okay. Okay. So it did not used to be uncommon that when I'm trying to wind down for bed-

Jefferson Fisher 1:02:01 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:02:01 ... that Vid wants to go through something deep or important.

Jefferson Fisher 1:02:05 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:02:05 Okay?

Jefferson Fisher 1:02:05 Yeah. [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:02:06 And so I would say one of the things that I've learnt to do is be able to now calmly, I hope and I think, say, "Hey, listen, I, I know this is super important. I'm so tired at the moment. I actually don't think we're gonna get a great outcome from this conversation right now." Or something to that effect.

Jefferson Fisher 1:02:22 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:02:23 And actually, it is, it is game-changing, that kind of stuff.

Jefferson Fisher 1:02:27 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:02:27 Because if you don't say it-

Jefferson Fisher 1:02:29 Yes

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:02:29 ... right, or you get frustrated or not... You know, A, you can't expect the other person to mind read-

Jefferson Fisher 1:02:34 Exactly

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:02:35 ... which I think is the biggest problem-

Jefferson Fisher 1:02:36 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:02:36 ... in relationships.

Jefferson Fisher 1:02:37 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:02:38 It's like, no, why don't I just tell you calmly, "Hey, can we fix a time tomorrow to go through this?"

Jefferson Fisher 1:02:43 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:02:43 "Because I, I can see that it's important," or whatever it might be.

Jefferson Fisher 1:02:45 Yes. Now you got it. Yeah. How many times, I mean, even in my own marriage, I'm like, I am, I am in bed closing my eyes and she will go, "So I was just thinking," and I'm like-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:02:55 [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 1:02:55 ... uh, "What? Are we... Oh, you wanna talk about this now?" Like, I mean, you kind of have that. And yeah, you, uh... What I like to teach is don't wait until you have 10% of yourself for 100% of a conversation. You each have a, a battery, and, and what happens a lot is we lead to negative consequences when w- we're each in the red. We're in low battery modes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:03:17 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 1:03:17 So you're more agitated.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:03:19 Exactly.

Jefferson Fisher 1:03:19 You're hungry. You're tired. You don't feel good. You want... And so certain conversations, it's not like it's a simple, "Hey, uh, let's remember to buy more milk tomorrow." Like, we're not talking about that stuff. I'm talking, like, the real conversations that are outcome determinative of what's happening with the kids, the kids' schedule or... And she might be telling me something where I'm fading into the night, and that's when she wants to lay out the, "We need to agree on every... where you're gonna be, this, who's gonna pick up who," and it's, "I'm not gonna remember this right in this moment, but sure, go ahead and say..." So yeah. What's most important is, one, you don't dismiss it. You can't be dismissive of it.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:03:55 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 1:03:55 Because if you're like, "Can we just talk about this later?" That's gonna feel very dismissing because to them, to whoever you're talking to, it's on their mind. It-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:04:05 Yeah

Jefferson Fisher 1:04:05 ... it doesn't mean that it's wrong. Uh, and sometimes they need to get it out so they can sleep. And so... And, and, and I've felt that that way before. But if you ask somebody to push a conversation because it's going to lead to a better outcome, they will always say yes. If you, if you say, "Is this something we have to agree on right now?" Most of the time the answer is, is no. The... You will always push it. But if you tell them that you're gonna have a better conversation, better outcome, if we postpone this 30 minutes, an hour to the next morning, they will say yes. They won't say no to it.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:04:37 Yeah, no, I love it. What about this lesson? I love this one. Um, you don't have to attend every argument you're invited to.

Jefferson Fisher 1:04:47 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:04:47 That's brilliant.

Jefferson Fisher 1:04:48 Thank you. [laughs] It is a, a mindset of instead of the default where somebody is engaging an opinion with you, and we're opinion-making machines.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:04:58 Mm.

Jefferson Fisher 1:05:00 Something happens in the world, where, where does everybody turn to? Social media to share their opinion.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:05:06 [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 1:05:06 To who? Their audience of six people that, you know, are on their f- Facebook or something. And they... And, and they go and they flood all the comments of how much they agree, they disagree, and who's attacking who, and who's a snowflake, and who's the whatever. And that kind of behavior solves, is nothing. In effect, it's very draining. In effect, if we wanna say that's a symptom of a very bad health, uh, you know, a lot of the times those kind of people are, are unhealthy, not just physically, but mentally un- unwell. All right? So if you want to make sure that you stop attending every argument you're invited to, you need to understand that there's a priority of what's important in your life. There are people that disagree with you, and there are people who maybe don't even like you. Most likely, if they don't like you, they're not that important. You know? Uh, who, who do you wanna keep in your life?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:06:00 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 1:06:00 Yeah. Who, who do you wanna surround yourself with? And I feel like any time somebody gives you an invitation to an argument, we go, "Oh, yep, absolutely. Check yes. I will be attending." And that's a, that's a one-way ticket to, um, bad health.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:06:14 It, it comes down to emotional awareness, self-awareness, emotional regulation-

Jefferson Fisher 1:06:18 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:06:18 ... doesn't it? Because when you are more self-aware and emotionally regulated, I think it becomes easier to not attend every argument. When your nervous system is in high alert, when you've been busy with work all day, you didn't take a lunch break, you're in sort of that stress mode-

Jefferson Fisher 1:06:40 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:06:40 ... it's sometimes harder to separate.

Jefferson Fisher 1:06:43 Right.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:06:43 And I think sometimes fear is also what gets in the way of many things in our life, but also-... our ability to communicate well, right? And I think the more we're better to emotionally regulate, the more better able we are to go, "Hey, you know what? I don't, I don't wanna get involved with that."

Jefferson Fisher 1:07:00 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:07:00 You know? Uh, something I've learnt being online sharing information for about 12 years now is I don't have to have an opinion on everything.

Jefferson Fisher 1:07:11 [laughs] Yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:07:12 And-

Jefferson Fisher 1:07:12 Or, or you can have an opinion and not share it.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:07:14 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 1:07:15 [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:07:15 I certainly don't need to have a public opinion on everything.

Jefferson Fisher 1:07:17 Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:07:17 Now, people can expect me to.

Jefferson Fisher 1:07:19 Mm-hmm. Right.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:07:20 "I should be commenting on this event." Great. No problem. I don't think I should.

Jefferson Fisher 1:07:26 Right.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:07:26 I don't want to, and ultimately... So to me, what I, what I will and what I won't communicate on-

Jefferson Fisher 1:07:31 Yeah, yeah, yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:07:31 ... right, it's kind of interesting. What have you learnt, right? So this is interesting. You were already an exceptional communicator. You started sharing things online in 2022, so about three years or so. You've had a lot of experience with comments on-

Jefferson Fisher 1:07:46 [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:07:46 ... social media.

Jefferson Fisher 1:07:47 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:07:47 So what, what has being on social media and reading comments sections taught you about other human beings?

Jefferson Fisher 1:07:58 You know, I, I'll tell you, I'm blessed with a wonderful audience. I, I can probably count on one hand truly the amount of times I've had a, a negative troll type of just nasty-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:08:11 Oh, wonderful

Jefferson Fisher 1:08:11 ... comment, which is just wonderful. And most of the time they're, they're bots, you know? They're not, they're not real. Um, but what I have seen, of course, because I'm on social media like you are, I've seen people leave negative, horrible comments in YouTube, TikTok, Instagram, y- you name it, where the quick little clap back that's ugly, maybe on somebody's weight, appearance, looks, what they said, and it gets a lot of likes, like a crazy-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:08:47 Yeah

Jefferson Fisher 1:08:48 ... amount of likes. Because there's this anonymity of being behind the keyboard, and you almost in some sense get rewarded for it. When somebody is liking your comment, what are you encouraged to do? Say more ugly things-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:09:03 Mm

Jefferson Fisher 1:09:04 ... to get more, like, an appreciation and, uh, th- th- that dopamine hit of you're, you're doing something well. So what I have seen is that people in comments can be... I've seen it both ways. I've seen the negative side of it, and it's detrimental. I've also seen the very positive side of people can create a community in the comments. And you take something like TikTok, for example. Sometimes the comments are more entertaining than the actual content-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:09:33 Mm

Jefferson Fisher 1:09:33 ... itself. People immediately r- what they would say, run to the comments because there's so much interaction or things that are funny. People are hilarious.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:09:41 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 1:09:41 I mean, I'd... One thing about social media is that there's so many talented people and so many funny people that you would never know.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:09:48 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 1:09:48 They, you know, they're total, totally, um, total introverts, but they're funny and creative and things you would never be able to see in the, the world and environment that you're, that you're in. So I've been blessed with being able to see the positive. I've been blessed with being able to see the, the negative of it in, in social media. And I, I find, I mean, I'm certainly a product of it. I wouldn't be here with you today-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:10:13 Mm

Jefferson Fisher 1:10:13 ... had people not resonated with the, the content that I make.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:10:17 I would bet that one of the reasons you don't get many negative comments is because of your energy.

Jefferson Fisher 1:10:24 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:10:26 People respond to energy. They, they do. You know, we all respond to energy and the vibe of the people around us. And so if you're putting out content with a really warm, compassionate, grounded energy with a real desire to help people-

Jefferson Fisher 1:10:44 Right

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:10:45 ... it's just not gonna lead to that many people, you know, trying to meet that energy with division and criticism.

Jefferson Fisher 1:10:53 Yeah. Right.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:10:53 Do you know what I mean?

Jefferson Fisher 1:10:54 Oh, yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:10:54 Whereas some people, their whole brand is about calling out or-

Jefferson Fisher 1:10:58 Yes

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:10:58 ... this is what's toxic or whatever it might be.

Jefferson Fisher 1:11:00 The drama, whatever it is. Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:11:01 Yeah. So of course that energy is gonna attract more energy like that-

Jefferson Fisher 1:11:04 Right

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:11:05 ... which is super interesting. I mean, I also ra- very rarely get negative comments. Um, but I've always had a rule, actually, an internal rule with myself, which is, which maybe I didn't follow in the early days of being-

Jefferson Fisher 1:11:18 Mm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:11:18 ... you know, online sharing information-

Jefferson Fisher 1:11:19 Mm, mm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:11:19 ... but I've learnt through the process, which is, it comes back to some of your teachings in this book, right? Which is, if I'm not feeling calm, do not respond to a comment.

Jefferson Fisher 1:11:31 Yeah. [laughs] That's so true.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:11:32 You know?

Jefferson Fisher 1:11:33 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:11:33 Don't do it.

Jefferson Fisher 1:11:33 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:11:33 It's never gonna come, go well.

Jefferson Fisher 1:11:35 No.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:11:35 You know? Only respond... So sometimes it's like I, I think, "Actually, that's worthy of a respon- like I-

Jefferson Fisher 1:11:40 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:11:40 ... I feel that'd be, uh, good to interact with that," but only do it when you're feeling calm. And calm doesn't just mean my internal state. It also means what's going on in my life.

Jefferson Fisher 1:11:48 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:11:49 Right? It's more important that I'm gonna spend quality time with my children-

Jefferson Fisher 1:11:54 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:11:54 ... or my wife or going round to see my mum.

Jefferson Fisher 1:11:57 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:11:58 Actually, you know what? That is more important- [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 1:12:00 So true

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:12:01 ... than a random comment on my Instagram page.

Jefferson Fisher 1:12:03 Absolutely. And probably the truth is that's one comment out of 200.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:12:08 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 1:12:08 You know what I mean? And so you have, you might have 199 wonderful comments, and we see that one, and we kinda go, "Hmm," and we wanna comment right there and, and you know it does nothing. I get questions. I know you get questions of people. When I post, I get negative comments and/or, you know, "How do you handle it?" And I go, "Do you have to?"

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:12:25 [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 1:12:26 "What do you..." What, I mean, the algorithm doesn't care if it's happy or sad. It's a comment. At the same time, do you know this person? Are you gonna actually sit down and spend time with this person? W- what's going on in your life?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:12:38 Well, yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 1:12:38 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:12:38 I, I sort of in, in my, in my last book, uh, Jeff, said Make Change That Lasts. There's a chapter called Take Less Offense. Okay, I think you'd really enjoy it actually.

Jefferson Fisher 1:12:47 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:12:47 And, um, in that chapter I make the case that offense is something we choose to do, right? Nothing is inherently offensive because if it was, we'd all-... find the same thing offensive.

Jefferson Fisher 1:13:01 Yeah, I love that.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:13:02 The fact that we don't means it's not the comment or the thing that was causing the offense, it was something within us that was being activated.

Jefferson Fisher 1:13:09 Right.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:13:10 Right, I'm not excusing poor behavior here.

Jefferson Fisher 1:13:12 Sure.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:13:12 I'm just saying that nothing is inherently offensive. We're choosing to take offense, right? And I'm, I sort of also made the case in that chat, Sir, that on some level, taking offense is actually or could be argued to be a little bit arrogant. And, and, and the reason I say that is because if you think about it rationally, there's eight billion people on the planet, right? Is it reasonable to believe that every other human being on this planet is gonna have the same view and perspective on the world as I do? No. Right? It's not reasonable at all. Clearly, some people in the world are gonna see the world differently from me.

Jefferson Fisher 1:13:51 Right.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:13:51 They're gonna have different ethics, different religion, a different way of being brought up, uh, different levels of trauma, whatever it might be. They're gonna see the world differently. So they may actually disagree with me on certain things. They may see things completely differently. It doesn't mean that they're wrong and I'm right, or I'm right and they're wrong.

Jefferson Fisher 1:14:08 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:14:08 Just means they see it differently.

Jefferson Fisher 1:14:10 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:14:10 And I, and I kind of feel, bringing it back to your book, one of the things I love about it is I think there's a real deep compassion behind the tools.

Jefferson Fisher 1:14:20 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:14:21 Which relates to what I just said, which is you don't know what's going on with that person. You know? What-- The person you see is not always the person you're talking to.

Jefferson Fisher 1:14:31 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:14:31 W- And that's, I think, one of the things I love the most about it.

Jefferson Fisher 1:14:34 Yeah. Well, thank you very much. I think you're absolutely right.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:14:37 I've been wearing a WHOOP band for about a year now, and it has had a transformative impact on my health and wellbeing. I've gained so many different insights, how different types of exercise or life stress affect my recovery, how different evening routines affect my sleep, and overall, it's helped me understand my own body much better. WHOOP is the only wearable that turns your health and fitness data into personalized guidance. And I'm pleased to announce that the all-new WHOOP band is now here, seven percent smaller, and with fourteen plus days of battery life. The all-new WHOOP includes so many exciting new features, including hormonal insights and on-demand ECG readings. But I think for me, my own personal favorite is health span, and seeing this regularly helps motivate me and keep me on track with my habits. Now, I've been a medical doctor for over twenty years. I think it's really important to use the WHOOP data as a tool to help guide you, not as something to dictate your life. Honestly, I don't think health wearables are necessarily for everyone, but for some people, like me, they can be absolutely game-changing. Get the all-new WHOOP at join.whoop.com/livemore or click on the link in the description box below. Like many of you, I want to proactively preserve my health and strength as I get older. And of course, the most important levers we can pull are those to do with food, movement, sleep, and relaxation. But I do think that there are certain supplements out there that can play a useful role. Mitopure from Timeline Nutrition is a supplement that promotes cellular renewal and mitochondrial health to address one of the root causes of aging. Now, what I really like about this company is their dedication to ongoing research, including randomized controlled trials in humans, many of which you can see on their homepage. And some of the potential benefits of taking Mitopure include increased strength, energy, endurance, and a slowing down of the aging process. If you do have the resources, I think that Mitopure is a supplement that is well worth considering. I myself have been taking it for several months now. To get twenty-five percent off your Mitopure order, go to timeline.com/livemore.

Jefferson Fisher 1:17:10 You choose to take offense to certain things, and I, I'm of the mindset of any time you just hear change, you hear about change, it makes you uncomfortable. You hear about change in the world or somebody having a different political view than you, that's change. You're hearing, it makes you go, "Nah, I don't like that." So whenever you find and hear that change that's being communicated to you and it makes you uncomfortable, that creates a lot of that fear because we like what is safe, we like what is known.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:17:46 Mm.

Jefferson Fisher 1:17:46 You-- Let's say I want to change your mind about something, and you have this political view. Let's say it's a religious view, for example. A-and I say that as something that's typically very crystallizing as part of somebody's identity. Well, if I just expect in one conversation I'm going to entirely disprove everything that you've ever believed, problems are gonna happen because what's most likely is I'm not just saying you're wrong. I'm saying your parents are wrong. I'm saying your grandmother is wrong. I'm saying that thing that you learned when you were a kid and you've known your entire life is all wrong, and people will, will do anything far past the point of just deciding not to listen to you in order to preserve what they know.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:18:31 Mm.

Jefferson Fisher 1:18:32 And it is so easy for people... That's why a lot of times in a political climate, they're okay with one candidate doing it. They're not okay with another candidate doing it. They're okay if it's the side I am comfortable with. I'm not good with if it's a side I don't agree with. Why? Because we feel comfortable with what we know because it's, comes down from the people that put their value in us, and we will defend the people in our livesThat have contributed to that view. So in other words, you can say I'm wrong.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:19:04 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 1:19:04 But if you're saying my dad's wrong, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Don't... You don't get to say my dad's wrong. I, I'm the one.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:19:09 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 1:19:09 And so we get defensive on behalf of the people that help shape our identity, and so we will do anything to the point of just refusing to listen, even to logic, even to evidence. Even somebody presents you with evidence of saying something of why your position is wrong on it, we will boldface just disagree with it in order to protect the values that we've been raised with.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:19:34 Yeah. It's a great point. I mean, obviously, you are an American citizen, and, you know, American politics is, uh, very interesting these days.

Jefferson Fisher 1:19:44 That's a great word.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:19:45 Uh-

Jefferson Fisher 1:19:45 Yeah. Let's keep it to that word. Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:19:47 [laughs] It's very interesting, and I think 12 months ago, the statistic that I came across, uh, was that one in six US adults are not talking to another family member because of a difference of opinion-

Jefferson Fisher 1:20:04 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:20:04 ... over politics.

Jefferson Fisher 1:20:05 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:20:05 Which I found utterly remarkable.

Jefferson Fisher 1:20:08 Right.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:20:08 Right? And really just speaks to what you just said, right?

Jefferson Fisher 1:20:11 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:20:11 And I guess that, in many ways, highlights why a book like yours is so important, right? Because it should be possible for two people with completely different religions or completely different political beliefs within the same family, it should be possible to have a conversation with them-

Jefferson Fisher 1:20:32 Yes

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:20:32 ... and still love them and still respect them. You know, of course, people will argue that there are extremes, there are certain things that people can't get over. Okay, but as a general principle, you should be able to get on with people who see the world differently than you do.

Jefferson Fisher 1:20:46 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:20:47 Which is something you don't see online much. But if I think about even my best mates from university, like, there's four or five of us, and, you know, we're, we'd be there for each other. You know, we could rely on each other for anything.

Jefferson Fisher 1:20:59 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:21:00 Doesn't mean we all see the world the same way.

Jefferson Fisher 1:21:01 Right.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:21:02 We, we, you know, we have differences of opinions on things. We're still best mates.

Jefferson Fisher 1:21:06 Right.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:21:06 But it seems as though the world, at least online, well, I say online, it's getting more divided, but that statistic would suggest that actually offline as well-

Jefferson Fisher 1:21:17 Yes

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:21:17 ... it's getting more divided as well.

Jefferson Fisher 1:21:19 Yeah. I, I definitely believe so because we're not allowing real conversation. We, we expect that we can solve all issues in one conversation. In fact, I'll go even more. We feel like we can solve everything and change someone's mind by saying one sentence, and we just think because I said it, well, then they have to wholeheartedly-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:21:39 Mm

Jefferson Fisher 1:21:39 ... swallow it, agree with it, take it, and say, "I'm the most amazing genius they've ever heard. Yes, of course, you're right."

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:21:45 [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 1:21:45 And that's just never going to-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:21:46 Mm

Jefferson Fisher 1:21:46 ... that's never going to happen. And instead, you have to see that if you want to change someone's mind, you better be ready to have multiple conversations. I'm talking conversations over years. Things that you're gonna have to invest in asking questions and finding out why someone believes what they do. When you actually take the time, rather than fighting, fighting the opinion they have, you take the time to find out why they have it-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:22:15 Exactly

Jefferson Fisher 1:22:15 ... and how they learned it, and where they picked it up, and when they learned it. All of that information is gonna give you way more knowledge and realize it's not the symptom, it's the cause.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:22:27 Yeah. Is it even possible to change someone's mind? It's like maybe the goal is never to change someone's mind. Maybe the goal should be to learn.

Jefferson Fisher 1:22:36 Yeah, I like... Well, I would reframe that. The, yes, you can change someone's, someone's mind, but what you said is right. You have to change the goal. Too often we put the, we put a bar on conversations of, and that bar is, "They have to admit I'm right. They have to say they're wrong."

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:22:55 Mm.

Jefferson Fisher 1:22:57 That is rarely, if ever, going to happen. I can't get my child to say that. I think I'm gonna have someone who's a grown adult say that, who's had a year or, or years, a whole life of experiences?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:23:11 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 1:23:11 And I think just because I uttered sound into the ear, they're a- automatically just gonna go, "The scales have fallen from my eyes. How wrong I am."

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:23:19 [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 1:23:19 That's not going to happen, right? And so you, you can absolutely change someone's mind, but one, you have to live it. You can't just say it and there be misalignment in how you're-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:23:32 Mm

Jefferson Fisher 1:23:32 ... you're living. Two, yes, evidence helps, but sometimes when you're trying to push your opinion, that makes me come closer more. So for example, the more I tell you you're wrong, the more convinced you're going to be that you're right.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:23:47 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 1:23:48 You're, you're gonna protect, you're gonna protect what you know because this is the one thing you feel like you do know, that you're sure about. Why? Because your dad told you about it when you were five, you know? So you will wrap yourself onto that, that memory. So can you change someone's mind? Yes, 100% you, you can, but you cannot do it when you raise the bar as, "I'm right, you're wrong." Instead, I'm telling you to lower the bar.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:24:13 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 1:24:13 That's what the book does. It tells you to lower the bar. Instead of saying, "I need to prove that I'm right," my goal is to understand where you're coming from. My goal is to ask more questions than I say things. My goal is to, am I showing appreciation for the time that we're spending in this conversation?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:24:32 Mm-hmm.

Jefferson Fisher 1:24:32 When you set the bar really low of just making sure you feel understood and they feel understood, or they feel acknowledged. Set a bar of, how can I show that I acknowledge them in this conversation?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:24:41 Mm.

Jefferson Fisher 1:24:42 That's going to lead to more of what you want rather than setting that bar that's, uh, um, that you can never meet.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:24:48 Yeah. Some of what you just said there speaks to one of the other life lessons in the book, which is never win an argument.

Jefferson Fisher 1:24:55 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:24:56 What does that mean?

Jefferson Fisher 1:24:57 Whenever you set out to win an argument, you will lose the relationship over time.If I were to say, "Do you know anybody in your life who always has to be right? They always have to have the final say. They always have to have the last word." Those kind of people are n- not someone anybody wants to be around. It's typically an audience of one. And the more you try to win and prove, you lower the quality and connection of that relationship. What you've really won is their contempt. Let's say you and I are in an argument. Rather than me trying to understand you, I have to win. Win often sounds like I'm the last one to talk. That's what we typically have-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:25:38 Mm-hmm

Jefferson Fisher 1:25:38 ... in conversations. The one who says something last is the one who somehow wins. Maybe you said something really ugly because you and I have been personal friends for forever, and I know that one button that I can say that s- speaks right to your insecurity, and all of a sudden you shut down. Does that mean I win? Probably not, but that's the feeling. Or if you and I are in a conflict of opinion and I'm the one that says, "No, I have to be right," and you go, "You know what? Fine. You're right. You're right," is that really winning? Over time, they're gonna feel contempt for you.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:26:12 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 1:26:12 What you really want is to be the first to apologize, and that's, that's kind of the procedure of, of arguments. The person who said the worst thing last, that's typically the one who has to apologize first. What I like to teach is instead of trying to win the argument, you look to unravel them. You find the knots in the conversation and get really quick and really proficient at loosening them.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:26:37 Why do you think so many people take things personally when they're having a conversation?

Jefferson Fisher 1:26:42 [sighs] Our default is to make things about me, make things about I, not so much you. And it's just a shift of perspective that-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:26:58 Yeah

Jefferson Fisher 1:26:58 ... we make everything, everything about, about us. Like as me, as an, um, a young associate at the law firm, us associates, um, would complain about the partners. We go, "The partners don't care. Partners don't listen to us. The part-- All they do is think about themselves." When I made partner, I got a-- Within probably five minutes, I got an email and I thought, "These associates. All they do is care about themselves."

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:27:26 [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 1:27:26 You know, it's very us versus them-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:27:28 Yeah

Jefferson Fisher 1:27:29 ... mentality. When you're the employee, you hate the management. When you're the management, you hate the employee. You always find a way to make it about you. It's, it's our default. It's why we take things personally. It's why when you-- If I were to text you, "Okay," you're not gonna be, "Look at that. Look how nice Jefferson is. He said 'okay' in the happiest way possible." Instead, you're gonna go, "Okay? W- what kind of okay is that? Is, like a, is that a okay okay? Or is that, like a okay?" Like, what-- We, we find ways of reading the negative in text and email, any transactional correspondence like that.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:28:03 How much of what you teach then can be applied to electronic communication? Because that is a way that many people converse-

Jefferson Fisher 1:28:14 Mm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:28:14 ... these days, right? So sure, when we're face to face in a room with someone, we can apply certain things. We can pick up on nonverbal communication-

Jefferson Fisher 1:28:21 Right

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:28:21 ... and get a sense of what they're saying to us. But on a text message or an email, things start to go wrong very, very quickly.

Jefferson Fisher 1:28:30 Yeah. [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:28:31 Um, are there any tips that you have for us to use in that form of communication?

Jefferson Fisher 1:28:37 Yeah. So there's absolutely a place for the electronic communication. I'm talking text and email specifically. It's efficient. It does not mean it's effective all the time. Now, I can communicate with you face to face and in a text it's gonna be very different. For example, this was a few years ago. My mom decided to text me out of the blue. She was asking me about the family car. It was a white Nissan that I had had through college and law school and had passed down through my siblings. I had no idea where it was. Out of the blue, my mom texts me and she said, "Do you know the mileage to the white Nissan?" I said, "No, ma'am." She said, "You don't know the mileage to the white Nissan?" I said, "No, ma'am." This is all through text. She goes, "Okay. I just thought you would know the mileage to the white Nissan." I said, "Mama, I don't know how else to tell you. I don't know the mileage to the white Nissan." Immediately she replied, "That's fine, Jefferson. I just don't like your attitude." Like, she just [chuckles] read everything of-- She thought I was being disrespectful simply by text. And so what do I do? I instantly pick up the phone to call her. So if you want some tools on how to improve the text or emails would be, one, when you can, get on the phone with them. If you find that there's any type of dissonance, if you find that there's some kind of friction-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:30:07 Yeah

Jefferson Fisher 1:30:07 ... hear their voice. Text does not, does not convey emotional nuance. There's a difference between seeing the warmth of someone smile-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:30:18 Yeah

Jefferson Fisher 1:30:19 ... and reading it in an emoji. I like to compare it to, you can describe a sunset. It's, doesn't even compare to seeing a sunset. A very, very different thing. So they need to hear your voice. So if you find yourself right into conflict, use your voice. Number two, there's a phrase that I like to use, um, really for a lot of different concepts. But if you find that you're taking something personally, meaning you're assuming someone's intent for good or for bad, usually it's for bad, begin with, "Did you mean?" In text, we t- I would say the biggest culprit is we, especially in relationships, you use very short language.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:31:00 Mm-hmm.

Jefferson Fisher 1:31:00 "Okay. Sounds good. Cool. All right." And you read the negativeInto that. Maybe you didn't put an emoji in it, and so they, they just automatically assume that you're, you're upset, you're mad. Or you get an email from somebody. Some- a, a boss or somebody you work with, and they send an email, and you feel like it's kind of rude. If you respond with, "Did you mean? Did you mean for that to sound short? Did you mean for that to sound upset? Did you m- mean for that to sound curt?" Like, whatever it is, whenever you say, "Did you mean," it allows the other person some benefit of the doubt to allow them to go, "Oh, no, no, no, no. Sorry. I was just... I was, I was in the middle of this. I was running on the air end. I was... I'd just gotten out of the car." Whatever it is. You're giving some more context-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:31:43 Mm

Jefferson Fisher 1:31:43 ... rather than trying to, to take it personally every single time. I f- I find that that is something that's gonna be very beneficial. And three would be limit the conversation. Don't, uh, w- don't write in paragraphs. That's-- That's not gonna go well. You wanna write very con- concisely. That makes it very much more clear. So if you can't say it really in three sentences, you need to rethink it.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:32:09 That speaks to something I really wanted to talk to you about today on the show, okay? And it's from page fourteen of your book, so early on, and it's all about, uh, speaking directly. Okay. Now, let me just explain a bit of background to why I've underlined this paragraph and why I wanna discuss it with you. So interestingly enough, as I think I've already shared with you, when I started going out with my now wife, she was a criminal barrister in London.

Jefferson Fisher 1:32:43 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:32:44 And one of the things that we both noticed very early on in our relationship is that we communicate quite differently. Vid is very concise and very particular with her words, and she's very direct. When we first met, I wasn't. I wasn't concise, and I certainly wasn't direct.

Jefferson Fisher 1:33:08 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:33:08 I would go round the houses, right?

Jefferson Fisher 1:33:10 [laughs] Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:33:11 I don't know if that's an American phrase or not-

Jefferson Fisher 1:33:13 Yeah, yeah, yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:33:13 ... but I, I wouldn't get to the point.

Jefferson Fisher 1:33:14 We say beat around the bush.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:33:15 Beat around the bush. Okay.

Jefferson Fisher 1:33:16 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:33:16 Right. Now, it's really interesting. Initially, I would say, because I wasn't used to direct communication, it's certainly not how-

Jefferson Fisher 1:33:25 Right

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:33:26 ... I had mo- uh, communication modeled, uh-

Jefferson Fisher 1:33:29 Mm. Yeah, yeah, yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:33:30 ... growing up, right? It certainly wasn't how I did things, and I think I had a lot of insecurity. So I would mask those insecurities by overusing words, overexplaining, over-apologizing-

Jefferson Fisher 1:33:40 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:33:40 ... whatever it might be, right? I would say, because of that, or a consequence of that, was that I found, initially at least, Vid's direct communication, sometimes I f- I found it quite blunt-

Jefferson Fisher 1:33:54 [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:33:54 ... and that's quite harsh.

Jefferson Fisher 1:33:55 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:33:55 You know, I still fell madly in love with her and married her, right?

Jefferson Fisher 1:33:58 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:33:58 So to be clear, that probably-

Jefferson Fisher 1:34:00 Might have worked. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:34:00 It might have worked, but, but it's funny that the way I now see communication, I think, wow, that was awesome, right? Because one of the real benefits of the way Vid would communicate to me early on in our relationship was that, you know, she wasn't afraid to say what she thought.

Jefferson Fisher 1:34:19 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:34:20 I would be. Not, not because of Vid, just 'cause, 'cause of my own personal insecurities, I would beat around the bush-

Jefferson Fisher 1:34:27 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:34:27 ... right? And not get to the point. And I've learned over the years that actually speaking directly, you know, I would say a compassionate directness-

Jefferson Fisher 1:34:36 Mm-hmm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:34:37 ... I think is just a wonderful way to communicate because you, you know, you're not imagining, what do they really mean? I know when Vid says something, I know what she means. If she's happy with me doing something, she'll say it. If she's not, she'll tell me. I don't have to imagine, you know, was she just saying that?

Jefferson Fisher 1:34:51 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:34:52 Right? And so can I just read this section back to you?

Jefferson Fisher 1:34:54 Please. Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:34:54 It's your book, um, but I really liked it, and I wanted to discuss essentially why you think speaking directly is so important. Okay, here it is. "Speaking directly doesn't mean you lack empathy or consideration for the other person's feelings. Being direct means that you have the self-assurance that you can respect the other person as well as yourself enough to communicate your needs openly without fear." Jefferson, I freaking love that paragraph, right?

Jefferson Fisher 1:35:28 [laughs] Thank you.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:35:28 I've been rereading it because I've been thinking, actually, that's something I still feel I could do better.

Jefferson Fisher 1:35:34 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:35:35 Certainly, in electronic communication, I would say I still probably write quite lengthy emails.

Jefferson Fisher 1:35:41 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:35:41 I still treat it like a card. I was writing, you know, "Dear whoever, hope you're well," you know?

Jefferson Fisher 1:35:46 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:35:47 You know, which I, I guess I would argue is polite.

Jefferson Fisher 1:35:50 Right.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:35:50 But where's the balance, right?

Jefferson Fisher 1:35:52 Right.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:35:52 So talk, talk to me about speaking directly.

Jefferson Fisher 1:35:55 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:35:55 Why is it so important, do you think?

Jefferson Fisher 1:35:56 Right. So this brings us into rule two, the, the say it with confidence. Just because it's polite doesn't mean it's honest. Just because it's polite doesn't mean that it's, it's kind. Clarity is kind, and it can-- I mean, being direct can be sometimes, and oftentimes, much kinder. When we beat around the bush, and we have trouble landing the plane-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:36:23 [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 1:36:23 ... in conversation, it creates anxiety. It creates resentment. It breeds miscommunication. Why? Because what you feel like you said, and you made it so plain, totally lost on me. Let me put it this way. People who can be direct with you and tell you what they want, it's very attractive in conversation, especially in relationships, because it says this is somebody who's assured of themselves. This is somebody who knows what they want. This is somebody who knows where they're going. And a lot of the times, you're removing the insecurity. You're, you're removing the, uh, the feeling of, of not feeling safe. So any time you're-- you can be direct in conversation, and we can talk every little tool about it, what you're doing is using your assertive voice. Most likely-And I would ask this of any of the listeners is, how was communication modeled for you in your life? Did your parents argue in front of you? Did you even see your parents argue, or did they argue behind closed doors? Did you feel like as a kid you could speak out and disagree, or did you feel you always had to be a little bit more quiet and let the other people talk? Or when you wanted to disagree, you got squashed on-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:37:41 Mm-hmm

Jefferson Fisher 1:37:41 ... and says, "Be quiet. You're, you're, you're to be seen, not heard."

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:37:45 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 1:37:46 Uh, and so understand that every bit of that, and hopefully even listening, there might be a light bulb moment where you go, "Oh, okay, maybe that's where it's really come from. Maybe that's why I'm feeling that." Or it could be culturally. I've definitely noticed a difference here in, in England of there's a, a cultural shift in communication. It is very polite. It is m- a little bit more indirect, a little bit softer. That doesn't mean that it's wrong. Understand that you will get to a place where eventually you feel like your voice is not being heard, and that, that can become, again, unhealthy.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:38:25 Yeah. I love what you said there about cultures and your experience having been in the UK for just what? Two or three days now.

Jefferson Fisher 1:38:32 Yeah, three days. Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:38:33 Um, and I would say that is a thing here, you know, where politeness is, you know, very much valued.

Jefferson Fisher 1:38:45 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:38:45 But it can go too far. I'm not saying we shouldn't be polite.

Jefferson Fisher 1:38:50 Um, no, for sure.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:38:51 But you can be polite and not say what you mean.

Jefferson Fisher 1:38:54 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:38:54 Is that really polite?

Jefferson Fisher 1:38:56 Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:38:56 Which I think happens a lot here.

Jefferson Fisher 1:38:58 Well-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:38:58 And I've certainly fallen into this trap before.

Jefferson Fisher 1:39:01 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:39:02 You know?

Jefferson Fisher 1:39:02 Well, I mean, let me tell you, as somebody who's a expert on, uh, the UK, that is, I've seen some episodes of The Crown, I know that [both laughing] ... I know there is, there is certainly, I feel like in the, the culture a you need to put up a face of peace. There is, we're all together. Everybody has the best face forward, even in times of internal, internal conflict. You, you have to keep it all-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:39:28 Mm-hmm

Jefferson Fisher 1:39:28 ... together. I don't know it's post-war peace. I don't know if it's, um, wanting everybody to feel like their unity is one. We have everything in order, and there's a time and a place in what's polite and what's acceptable, what's not acceptable. So it's, it's much more stringent in, in, in my opinion. Versus if you look at people in New York and you walk down the street, you're gonna s- easily, within a few minutes, tell a very big difference-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:39:54 [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 1:39:54 ... in the way people communicate. And even down in the South, where I'm, I'm in Texas, people communicate very differently. Doesn't mean that it's wrong, it's, it's cultural. But yes, there's certainly, you're right, a, a time and place where being polite can go too far. I know, um, I read a, a study once on how much more people in the UK apologize and use, "I'm sorry"-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:40:19 Wow

Jefferson Fisher 1:40:20 ... than those in the US, especially women. Um, and it was just wild to me of... Now, understand when I say apologies, I'm talking unnecessary apologies-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:40:32 Yeah

Jefferson Fisher 1:40:32 ... not ones that you've actually made a mistake. It's the, "I'm sorry, what?" It's the, "Oh, I'm so sorry, I just not saw this." Or I had somebody, uh, two days ago, I ran into them by accident, and she told me she was sorry, right? [laughs] So-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:40:45 That is very British.

Jefferson Fisher 1:40:46 Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. She's like, "Oh, sorry." And I was like, "No, no, no, it was me. It was, it was me who did that. Uh, [laughs] don't worry about it." Um, and so there's a lot of, I find when I'm listening, there's a lot of add-ons to sentences-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:40:59 Yeah

Jefferson Fisher 1:41:00 ... in the UK. So it's like they'll say something and then they'll be like, "If you don't mind."

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:41:04 Could, could we argue-

Jefferson Fisher 1:41:04 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:41:05 ... that it's cultural, but it's also that these phrases that we absorb growing up and we just start using, right?

Jefferson Fisher 1:41:12 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:41:12 So literally, I think two days ago, I was in my kitchen with my wife, and I was... I can't remember who I was sending a text message to. I don't know why I'd be even reading it out. In essence, I started off with, "Hey, whoever, sorry to bother you."

Jefferson Fisher 1:41:30 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:41:31 And then I was gonna say what I meant and, and Vid said to me, "Are you putting sorry to bother you?"

Jefferson Fisher 1:41:35 Yeah. [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:41:36 I was like, "That's a good point, actually." 'Cause if you really unpick that and just zoom out-

Jefferson Fisher 1:41:40 Exactly

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:41:42 ... was I really sorry to bother that person? I don't think I was, right? So therefore, is that polite or is it actually disingenuous?

Jefferson Fisher 1:41:52 Yes. Great word.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:41:53 Uh-

Jefferson Fisher 1:41:53 Yeah, yeah, yeah. There we go.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:41:54 So I didn't use it. So I was like, I was calling myself out, going, "Actually..." Yeah. Anyway.

Jefferson Fisher 1:41:58 That's perfect. That, yeah, that's what I call undervaluing your words. So th- this is how you would, you would typically start with, "Hey, hate to bother you." And it's like you don't hate it or else you wouldn't be doing it. Uh, it's, you know, uh, "Hate to bother you. Sorry to bother you. Um, you can let me know if I'm, I'm wrong." By the way, anybody who says, "I could be wrong about this," never thinks they're wrong about this.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:42:19 [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 1:42:19 They always think they're right about it. Anybody who goes, "I could be wrong about this"-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:42:22 [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 1:42:23 ... they don't think they're wrong about this. They think they're absolutely right about it.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:42:26 This is bonus stuff-

Jefferson Fisher 1:42:27 Yeah, yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:42:27 ... that's not in the book.

Jefferson Fisher 1:42:28 Exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:42:28 I love it. This is bonus content.

Jefferson Fisher 1:42:29 Yeah, yeah. Or, you know, I had somebody on my team, um, last year I brought on, and she always would begin with, "Totally let me know if you hate this." And you know what? Once she started talking, the first thought into my mind was-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:42:41 [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 1:42:42 ... "God, I hate this." You know what I mean? Like you... That's what happens when you say, "Hey, I hate to bother you," and you go, after a while you go, "Ah, this is, this is bothering me." Or this is very common in the US. They, they might say, "Th- this, this is probably a dumb question." And what happens? The other person goes, "Oh, no, no, no, no. There's no such thing as a, a dumb question." They're like, "Oh, you're sure? There's not?"

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:43:01 [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 1:43:01 "I don't have to ask my question?" And then, and then all they do when you start talking is you go, "This is the dumbest question." Uh, that's all you can think in your mind. So you're, you're already undercutting your words. Instead of that, what I want you to do is use language that builds, use language that adds onto. So instead of saying, "Hate to-"... bother you, you either remove it entirely, like in your text, great example, or it's, "Hey, I'd like to add on to a thought here. I'd like to add on to what you said. I'd like to continue the conversation," or, "I'd like to start a conversation about X, Y, and Z." You see how you're using forward momentum?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:43:41 Yeah, I love it.

Jefferson Fisher 1:43:42 Yeah, and that's a whole lot better of adding onto, continuing, building upon, rather than the hesitant language that feels like, "Oh, no, you sure? You, uh... Is that okay? Um, I mean, you know, let me, let me know if I'm, I'm wrong here." You're trying to be as inconvenient as, as possible and, and that can be unhealthy.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:44:02 When I write emails, perhaps to someone who I haven't spoken to for a while-

Jefferson Fisher 1:44:08 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:44:09 ... I will often say, "Hope you're well" at the start, right?

Jefferson Fisher 1:44:13 Right.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:44:13 So, so I've noticed that my email communication and some of my team's is quite different. I guess you have to have a conversation about how are we treating email. A lot of the problems come when we don't have clarity. A lot of problems in relationships come from unmet expectations that were never expressed in the first place.

Jefferson Fisher 1:44:31 Right.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:44:31 Right? And so I've noticed that I can write some quite lengthy emails. So I guess my question to you then, Jefferson, is not is there anything wrong, but how might you suggest I improve my writing style? Let's say I haven't spoken to, I don't know, Emily for a few months.

Jefferson Fisher 1:44:51 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:44:51 Right? So I go, "Hey, Emily, um, hope you're doing well. Was just wondering if we could..." Like, or whatever it might be.

Jefferson Fisher 1:44:59 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:44:59 Would you say that hope you're doing well is unnecessary? Because genuinely, I do hope she's doing well.

Jefferson Fisher 1:45:07 Right.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:45:07 Right? So I don't think I'm lying. Help me understand that.

Jefferson Fisher 1:45:12 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. We can throw this in a lot of different contexts. So there are phrases that we use that we really don't mean a lot. It-- They don't mean anything. Most of the time, they're adverbs. Like in the US, we have a problem with adverbs-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:45:26 [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 1:45:27 ... where we throw in just a lot. "I, I just wanna check in." Just eliminate the just. I wanted to ch-check, check in. You see how much more forward that is? Just eliminate. You're eliminating the hesitant language or adverbs of s- any word that ends in L-Y, really. Essentially, so, basically, literally, clearly, obviously, any of that stuff, you, you just can remove. What I like to teach is instead of filling your sentences full of ice cubes, you need to serve your words neat. Find ways of eliminating the stuff that you don't need. Now, you say something like, "I hope you're doing well." Y- do you think, is she sick? You know what I mean? Are you just hoping to find you well? I feel that that's also a very cultural thing. Um, it's also a precursor of making yourself a little comfortable right before you say what you wanna say. Same thing with you saying, "Just wondering if blah, blah, blah, blah."

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:46:19 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 1:46:19 Instead of just asking the question, "Would you like to go out with me on whatever, whatever?" So anytime you are getting really fuzzy with your language, it creates a lot of miscommunication, and it makes you sound more hesitant. Makes you sound-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:46:35 Yeah

Jefferson Fisher 1:46:35 ... a little bit more unsure and, and unsafe. Now, let me say, how, how can we fix it, right? How, how can we fix that? So one, you eliminate your adverbs. Two, I, I would, for emails specifically, let's say I try... My general rule is if you can't say it in three sentences, you need to rework it because it's lazy writing if they're long. Meaning that you, you really didn't put as much thought into the actual words as in you're just trying to find a way to make yourself feel better-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:47:07 Mm-hmm

Jefferson Fisher 1:47:07 ... in that communication. It's the same thing with, like, small talk before having a hard conversation with somebody. You feel like you have to kinda warm up the chat before you can actually say what you, you need to say, so they're not gonna be mad at you or disappointed with you in some sense. There's that quote, um, I think it was Mark Twain. It said, "If... I would have written you a shorter letter if I had had more time."

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:47:31 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 1:47:31 Yeah, so we-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:47:32 Oh

Jefferson Fisher 1:47:32 ... often are not-- we're not very choosy with our, with our words. It, it creates a lot of length, which again creates opportunities for miscommunication.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:47:41 Yeah. No, I love that. It's something for me personally to reflect on. You know, certainly with each subsequent book I've written, I have very much challenged myself to make them as short as possible.

Jefferson Fisher 1:47:56 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:47:56 You know, when, when I, I spend probably the same amount of time as writing it as I do editing it because it's always like, "No, you said that in five paragraphs. Can you say that in three paragraphs?"

Jefferson Fisher 1:48:05 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:48:05 Right? Really make every sentence count, which just makes it such a better reading experience for everyone. It's better writing.

Jefferson Fisher 1:48:12 Every time. Every time.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:48:12 It's easy to write 100,000, 150,000-word book, right?

Jefferson Fisher 1:48:15 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:48:15 Just-

Jefferson Fisher 1:48:15 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:48:15 ... blurt it all out onto the page, whatever.

Jefferson Fisher 1:48:17 Right.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:48:18 It's hard to compress it down to, whatever, 40,000-

Jefferson Fisher 1:48:22 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:48:22 ... or 30,000.

Jefferson Fisher 1:48:23 But it's worth the... It's worth the effort.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:48:24 Totally worth it.

Jefferson Fisher 1:48:24 It's worth the effort. You take me as an attorney, right? I have to take often what's years of a problem with my client, and I have to distill it into very bite-size things for the jury. They only have little questions on the jury verdict.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:48:41 Mm.

Jefferson Fisher 1:48:41 Yes, no, percentage, amount. They have very short little things, meaning I have to take years of information. I have to take five books, and I have to find a way to give it to them in two sentences.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:48:54 Mm-hmm.

Jefferson Fisher 1:48:54 And so it's a habit of distilling words. It's, it's, it's simply a habit that you create of eliminating the excessive apologies. Instead of the, um, "So sorry, I'm just now getting back to this," use words of gratitude. "Thank you for your patience." And you know what the other person's gonna think? "I am so patient. Yes, I am. Thank you, thank you, thank you for that."

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:49:17 Thank you for your patience could be, mean, damn, I've been really late at replying to this.

Jefferson Fisher 1:49:23 Exactly.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:49:23 So you're, you're, you're sort of assuming in a nice way, thank you for your patience. You don't know that they've been patient.

Jefferson Fisher 1:49:28 Exactly.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:49:28 They could have been mad for the last 10 days-

Jefferson Fisher 1:49:30 You got it

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:49:30 ... that you haven't replied to their email.

Jefferson Fisher 1:49:31 You got it.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:49:32 Right? So is that disingenuous-

Jefferson Fisher 1:49:34 No

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:49:34 ... saying thank you for your patience?

Jefferson Fisher 1:49:35 No, because in, in some sense, I would use it ri- really in that sense as, as theAs the noun. I mean, like I, I find that anytime you're waiting for somebody's response, there is some sense of patience, whether or not it's conscious or unconscious. Or you say it's, uh, "Thank you for the time for me to think about this," or, "Thank you for the chance to reply," or, "Thank you for allowing me some time to sit with this." And whatever you're about to say next is gonna sound very intentional. Why? Because you, you're taking time. The biggest thing is you don't wanna say, "I'm so sorry. So sorry I'm just now seeing this. So sorry I'm just now getting back to you." Why? Because you had priorities. You have life.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:50:12 So this is really interesting.

Jefferson Fisher 1:50:13 Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:50:14 So actually you're not sorry.

Jefferson Fisher 1:50:15 Right.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:50:16 Or you may not be sorry. It may be that, listen, yeah, just 'cause you sent me an email doesn't mean that that was my priority at that particular time in my life when you sent it.

Jefferson Fisher 1:50:25 Or ever.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:50:25 Or ever, right?

Jefferson Fisher 1:50:26 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:50:26 So therefore, saying I'm sorry for the, for the delay or whatever, you know, this is, this is kind of interesting, isn't it? It's a, it's one of those throwaway polite or what we think is a polite phrase to at least acknowledge to that person-

Jefferson Fisher 1:50:43 Right

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:50:44 ... "Hey, listen, you sent this 10 days ago. I'm only replying now." But there is an undercurrent there where you are being disingenuous, 'cause you may genuinely not be sorry. You may go-

Jefferson Fisher 1:50:53 Right.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:50:54 And it, it could be that actually this is the first time I've had time in 10 days-

Jefferson Fisher 1:50:58 [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:50:58 ... or the, a- and the inclination to even-

Jefferson Fisher 1:51:00 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:51:00 ... address this email.

Jefferson Fisher 1:51:01 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:51:01 So you... Why I'm pausing on these is because I feel I've got much better at removing these unnecessary add-ons.

Jefferson Fisher 1:51:10 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:51:11 But they're still there-

Jefferson Fisher 1:51:12 Of course

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:51:12 ... especially if I'm not paying attention, right?

Jefferson Fisher 1:51:14 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:51:14 So it's not my... Like Vid, for example, my wife, she is naturally very succinct and concise. We've a- always had a joke about this in our relationship, you know. You know, why use unnecessary words, say, sort of, you know, because it's like-

Jefferson Fisher 1:51:26 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:51:26 ... you know, if she can say it in three words, she will say it in three words.

Jefferson Fisher 1:51:29 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:51:30 You know? And it's not always I love you.

Jefferson Fisher 1:51:31 I'm mo-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:51:31 [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 1:51:32 I'm more and more, I'm more and more team wife right now.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:51:33 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 1:51:34 Yeah, this is awesome.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:51:34 A- okay, which is great.

Jefferson Fisher 1:51:35 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:51:35 And I've learned from that. I'm like, okay, that's pretty cool-

Jefferson Fisher 1:51:37 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:51:38 ... to be able to do that. Um, so yeah. I just find, I, I find this whole thing about unnecessary sentences really, really fascinating.

Jefferson Fisher 1:51:50 Yeah. The, there is... I love it, and I also can't help it 'cause I, when I hear people talking, here's another that a lot of people use, and it is, "Does that make sense?" They will add that to the end of their sentence, right? And I know why they use it. People use it because they want to make sure that what they are saying makes logical sense. Those of you listening might use it with your patients if you're a doctor. You might use it with your clients, your customers, whatever it is. You're using it to make sure that what you said makes logical sense.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:52:23 Which is a good thing.

Jefferson Fisher 1:52:25 Which is a good thing. Now, what the other person hears is one of two things. They either hear that you don't think they're smart enough, so you need to make sure they understand it, because you don't think they got it, you don't think they grasped it, or you don't sound like you know what you're talking about, so you have to make sure that you know what you're talking about. Does that make sense? You know, I mean, that's, that's, that's what happens. So a lot of the times, let's say for a doctor, they might be explaining something very, very, very high, um, complex, and at the end they go, "Does that make sense?" And the other person, they don't wanna sound like they're dumb. They're gonna go, "Oh, yeah, yeah. That, that makes sense." And then inside they're going, "No, that does not make sense at all." Most of the time when people are asked, "Does that make sense?" We say yes, because we don't wanna say no, because we don't wanna seem like we're the dumb ones.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:53:20 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 1:53:20 So what I would change that to is, "What are your thoughts?" or, "What do you think?" or, "Do you have any questions?" That's really what, that's really what you're asking for, is engagement of d- if you have any input. And if you don't really want their input, it's better that you just don't, don't say it.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:53:40 Yeah. That one's really interesting, 'cause I do use that. Okay?

Jefferson Fisher 1:53:45 I know. [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:53:45 I, I do... Yeah, so you... Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 1:53:47 Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:53:47 I do use, "Does that make sense?" Okay?

Jefferson Fisher 1:53:49 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:53:49 And-

Jefferson Fisher 1:53:51 It's not bad.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:53:51 No, no.

Jefferson Fisher 1:53:52 You know what I'm saying?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:53:52 No, but, okay, so this is really interesting. So may, you know, I would use it to ensure that, because I am keen that what I say lands. So I would make the case that I'm saying it out of respect to make sure that, hey, if it wasn't clear-

Jefferson Fisher 1:54:13 Mm-hmm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:54:13 ... please let me know-

Jefferson Fisher 1:54:15 Mm-hmm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:54:15 ... and I can try and explain it a different way, okay? But I agree with you also that it actually could, if you really want to check, um, understanding, for example, there are other ways to say it which could be better.

Jefferson Fisher 1:54:31 Ex- a- absolutely. Yeah, that's exactly right.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:54:33 Ah. Man, I love this stuff.

Jefferson Fisher 1:54:35 Yeah, this is fun stuff.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:54:36 I, I love this stuff. Um, before we wrap this up, I'm interested in the fact that you're a drummer.

Jefferson Fisher 1:54:42 Oh, yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:54:42 Okay? So as we were chatting about before, we're both keen musicians. We both played in bands for years. Uh, I am the singer and the frontman, okay?

Jefferson Fisher 1:54:52 Knew it. Knew it.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:54:53 Yeah. And interestingly, you're the drummer, right?

Jefferson Fisher 1:54:56 Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:54:56 And I'm thinking, okay, does that make sense to me from what I get from Jefferson, his groundedness, his self-assuredness, his, um... Yeah. His, his persona.

Jefferson Fisher 1:55:10 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:55:11 And I think it does.

Jefferson Fisher 1:55:12 Yeah, you're probably right. I've never been asked that question, but I'm seeing some similarities.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:55:16 So yeah, why, why do you think you became a drummer?

Jefferson Fisher 1:55:19 I lo- I've always loved the drums, um, probably 'cause I like to, to hit stuff with sticks. But it, um, if you look at the comparison of percussion in music and we compare that to your words in communication, the song can sound very different depending on the drums, the tempo. Are you gonna use-More of a kind of a reggae beat? Are you gonna go halftime? Are you doing it-- Are, are, are you doing something where-- You know these videos that you can find online of people playing different drums, different methods for different styles, and you get a different, totally different outcome. My personality is that the drums set the tempo of the conversation or the music.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:56:06 Exactly.

Jefferson Fisher 1:56:06 Same thing. And so if I want to lead the communication, I know I have to set the tempo. So I have to-- If I want-- If things are going too fast, I'm gonna pull back. If I want to make you feel comfortable, then I'm going to behave and act and communicate in the pocket, so to speak.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:56:23 Okay.

Jefferson Fisher 1:56:23 Where you're not going too fast, you're not dragging, you're not rushing, you're right exactly where everybody feels like they're nodding. That, that, that part, uh, and for anybody who's not familiar with in the pocket, that's the part where you're listening in the, in the music where everybody sounds like they're in sync.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:56:38 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 1:56:38 And you start to kind of bob your head. Why? Because it sounds good to you. It makes sense to you. It's not something that's too, too much. It's not something that's too soft. It's just easy listening. And so that kind of genre is, uh, that's probably about right, using the drumming analogy.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:56:54 Yeah, it was funny. I've, I've been deep into your work the last couple of days, and yesterday, as part of my research, when I found out you were a drummer, I was like, "Yeah, I think that fits."

Jefferson Fisher 1:57:03 [chuckles] Yeah, I never thought of-- I never thought that.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:57:05 I kind of, I kind of think that fits.

Jefferson Fisher 1:57:06 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:57:06 I mean, one thing I've always said is that you cannot-- you can't hide a poor drummer in a band.

Jefferson Fisher 1:57:12 Yeah, you can't hide a bad drummer. In the same sense of it's, you have to lead with your, your words, and you have to set the-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:57:18 Yeah

Jefferson Fisher 1:57:18 ... the tone, the pace, and making sure that it's all in the pocket. I've always considered my, uh, personality as just always feeling like you're, you're in the pocket. You feel comfortable. You feel confident. You don't have to feel like you're overreaching. You can feel like you can connect.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:57:32 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 1:57:33 Yeah, that's, that's, that's so awesome. [chuckles] I love that. We could talk music forever.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:57:36 We, we could. Well, that kind of actually brings us full circle back to the start when you were telling me about that weekend when you were eight years old, when you went away with-

Jefferson Fisher 1:57:45 Mm-hmm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:57:45 ... all the, the guys in your family-

Jefferson Fisher 1:57:47 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:57:47 ... the trial lawyers.

Jefferson Fisher 1:57:48 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:57:49 Because what I really got from that was that you learnt that weekend that your voice was a powerful tool.

Jefferson Fisher 1:57:57 Right.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:57:57 And if you learn how to use that powerful tool, you can do amazing things out there in the world.

Jefferson Fisher 1:58:05 Yeah. You can, you can change your life.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:58:07 You can change your life. You know, as you say, you can change any relationship at any moment by changing the way you communicate.

Jefferson Fisher 1:58:14 That's right.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:58:15 Jefferson, I love what you do. I think this book is absolutely fantastic.

Jefferson Fisher 1:58:19 Thanks.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:58:19 I think the content you put out online is so helpful for people. To finish this conversation off, for that person who feels that they're not a good communicator-

Jefferson Fisher 1:58:31 Mm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:58:31 ... and feels that a lot of the problems in their life come from an inability to communicate effectively, you've shared a lot of tips already throughout this conversation. Of course, there's a lot more in your book. But have you got any final parting words for that guy?

Jefferson Fisher 1:58:49 Yeah. For the, for the person who feels like their voice is not something they're proud of, one, I want them to understand where that, that comes from, a- actually do the work to understand where does that come from in your life. Two, the fact that you're listening to this episode, all right? That means you're already on your way to improving the way you communicate. So hats off to you actually caring about your communication and choosing to invest in your communication. Three, I promise you that when you begin to feel comfortable, not just in your own skin, but in your words, and understand the legacy you wanna leave, the reputation you wanna have, uh, the, the person you want to be in their life, it truly comes from what, what you say. Magical things can happen. Understand that conflict can be used for good. Conflict is both positive and negative. Every decision you've made has been some sort of conflict. You had to leave one relationship to find another. You had to leave one job to find another. So understand we are always improving. I mean, you continue to improve. As you tell me, every four to six weeks, you take with your family, and you really think, "How's this podcast gonna change?" I take plenty of time to go, "Oh, how could I have improved that, that sentence?" I don't want you to hear this episode and go, "I guess they have got it all together, and I don't." We're always-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:00:10 Yeah

Jefferson Fisher 2:00:10 ... we're always figuring out better ways to improve our, our life. There's one little quick trick that I'll give you, and it's because this is probably one of the most popular. When you feel like you have to disagree with somebody, and you're a little hesitant on, and you don't really feel you need to feel like you tell them hope, hope you're well, or you feel [chuckles] like you need to be a little soft about it. You, um... What I would encourage you to say is instead of, "I disagree," change it to, "I see things differently." I see things differently. Rangan, you've already used this, uh, in our conversation today, and I think that's-- You already, you already did without even knowing you're doing it. That's how good you are. When you say, "I see things differently," you're using words of perspective. So words like look, uh, I, I look at it a, a different way. I take another approach. I see things differently. People won't get defensive, and it's a great way to start to hear the power of your own voice. So if you want a better world, it begins with a better conversation.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:01:08 Yeah. Jefferson, the book is The Next Conversation: Argue Less, Talk More. Thank you so much for coming on the show.

Jefferson Fisher 2:01:16 Thanks for having me.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:01:17 [upbeat music] If you enjoyed that conversation, then I think you are really going to enjoy this one.

Speaker 2:01:21 You have to understand that the human body and the human mind don't wear out with usage. They actually rust without being used.