Skip to content
Dr Rangan ChatterjeeDr Rangan Chatterjee

#1 Communication Expert: "If Someone Says THIS, They’re Trying to Control You!" – Protect Your Peace

This episode is brought to you by: VIVOBAREFOOT: Get 20% off your first order https://bit.ly/4eAxtvK AG1: Get 10 FREE Travel Packs and Welcome Kit worth $80 visit: https://bit.ly/43FwxQl WHOOP: Try the New WHOOP today at https://join.whoop.com/livemore TIMELINE: Get 25% off your order of Mitopure https://timeline.com/livemore Most of us spend our lives in conversation - yet very few of us are ever taught how to communicate well. Whether it’s with our partners, colleagues, family or friends, we often assume that being heard is the same as being understood. But true communication isn’t just about the words we use - it’s about the tone, timing and energy behind them. This week’s guest believes that better communication can transform not only our relationships, but our health and happiness as well. Jefferson Fisher is a trial lawyer, a sought after public speaker and the author of the brand new book, The Next Conversation: Argue Less, Talk More. In this conversation, we explore: • Why good communication is about more than just words • The three essential principles to better communication • How to shift from reaction to reflection by making your first word your breath • What it means to “control the moment” • How to use the “I can tell…” framework to defuse tension • Why silence can be a superpower, when used correctly • How ego, fear and unspoken emotion are often the real reason for arguments This isn’t just an episode about talking. It’s about how to listen better, show up with more intention, and move from conflict to connection – one breath, one moment, one conversation at a time. I hope you enjoy listening. #feelbetterlivemore ---- Connect with Jefferson: https://www.jeffersonfisher.com/ https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXjnpu6lK0HoUyOMh2ZBwhQ https://www.instagram.com/jefferson_fisher/?hl=en https://www.facebook.com/justaskjefferson/ https://www.x.com/jefferson_fishr Podcast https://www.jeffersonfisher.com/podcast https://www.tiktok.com/@justaskjefferson?lang=en Jefferson’s book: The Next Conversation: Argue Less, Talk More US: https://amzn.to/3GevUHn UK: https://amzn.to/3GeQrvs #feelbetterlivemore #feelbetterlivemorepodcast ------- Order MAKE CHANGE THAT LASTS. US & Canada version https://amzn.to/3RyO3SL, UK version https://amzn.to/3Kt5rUK ----- Follow Dr Chatterjee at: Website: https://drchatterjee.com/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/drchatterjee Twitter: https://twitter.com/drchatterjeeuk Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/drchatterjee/ Newsletter: https://drchatterjee.com/subscription DISCLAIMER: The content in the podcast and on this webpage is not intended to constitute or be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Never disregard professional medical advice or delay in seeking it because of something you have heard on the podcast or on my website.

Dr. Rangan ChatterjeehostJefferson Fisherguest
Jul 9, 20252h 1mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 1:47

    Why conversations derail: assuming reception, defensiveness, and the urge to win

    1. RC

      In your view, what are some of the common things that get in the way of people communicating effectively?

    2. JF

      Hmm. [chuckles] Lots. The number one would be they assume that what is said is what was received in that instance. So if I were to tell you something, and we've felt this in, uh, relationships, we've felt this at work, you send a message, and they hear and they feel something very different. Maybe in an email you wrote something, and all of a sudden they go, "Why are you mad at me?" You go, "I'm not mad." Or you're talking and somebody says, "Why are you yelling?" You go, "I'm not yelling," or, "I, I'm not upset." And so we feel these instances where what we thought we said is not is what is received on the other end, so there's that kind of miscommunication. Now, there's also just the difficultness of being open and receptive in the moment, or we don't want to listen, so we're the ones not willing to receive anything. We're the ones that are getting defensive. And on top of that, we often feel that conversation, especially disagreements, instantly become a competition wh- where we want to win.

    3. RC

      Mm.

    4. JF

      We want to dominate, we want to compete, and those are recipes for a bad conversation real quick.

    5. RC

      Yeah. You know, it's interesting, the last couple of days I've gone deep into all of your online content and your wonderful new book-

    6. JF

      Nice

    7. RC

      ... and you've got great information to share. But it's not just what you're sharing, it's how you're sharing it.

    8. JF

      Mm.

    9. RC

      There's a, there's a calmness, there's a friendliness.

    10. JF

      Mm.

    11. RC

      And I think, going back to what you said about what are the obstacles to good communication, basically what you're hearing is the tip of the iceberg.

    12. JF

      Yeah.

    13. RC

      There's something going on beneath that.

  2. 1:47 – 2:24

    The iceberg under the words: hidden context, emotions, and unseen struggles

    1. JF

      Yes. The person you see is often not the person you're talking to, meaning I'm, I'm talking to you right here, but I don't know the struggles you're having. I don't know if you had a, a difficult time this morning with the wife or the kids or anybody, and that's the same for anybody we meet. And how we talk to them in that moment, how we hear them in that moment often is a reflection of a lot of other influences rather than just saying, "How dare they say that to me?" without ever questioning-

    2. RC

      Mm

    3. JF

      ... why would they say that? Where is this coming from? There's always a surface and a depth to anybody.

  3. 2:24 – 7:25

    An 8-year-old at the ‘big leagues’: courtroom storytelling as a family culture

    1. RC

      Yeah. Your personal story deeply fascinates me, so I wonder if you could tell me about eight-year-old Jefferson-

    2. JF

      Yeah

    3. RC

      ... and that weekend when you fell asleep with beef biltong-

    4. JF

      Oh [laughs]

    5. RC

      ... in your hands.

    6. JF

      Yeah. Uh, so I am a fifth-generation trial attorney, and I'm talking my great-grandfather was a federal judge. His father was an attorney. Grandfather was a DA, county attorney. Dad's an attorney. I have cousins, great uncles, cousins, you name it, trial attorneys. I w- I mean, there are people I know that have lots of doctors in their family. There's not a doctor in our family.

    7. RC

      [laughs]

    8. JF

      There's nobody... I mean, we can't, we couldn't build a shed to help our lives.

    9. RC

      [laughs]

    10. JF

      You know what I mean? So all, all we do is know how to blow hot air. And, um-

    11. RC

      [laughs]

    12. JF

      Yeah, so that's... I, I grew up in that kind of lifestyle. So every year we'd, we'd go on a trip, and I was the oldest of my generation, so I was the first great-grandson of the, the judge. And of course, when you're there it's, you don't be talking. Don't... It is still the, the men's retreat here, so it was much better if I was just quiet, which I had no problem. I was just-

    13. RC

      It's the first one you'd been invited to.

    14. JF

      Yeah, it was the first one I was invited to, and I thought I was on top of the world. I mean, I thought I was so big. I thought I was so grown. It was about a seven-and-a-half-hour car ride with my dad, which that in and of itself was the most alone time I'd ever had with my dad.

    15. RC

      Wow.

    16. JF

      Um, and so being able to have that, 'cause always my siblings, and y- as a oldest child and having siblings, you never really had one-on-one time with your, with your parents. And so to have that trip with him, uh, those are some of also my very, very special memories. And getting there, being in that space, yeah, I, I like to say I thought I was called up to the big leagues. I mean, I thought I couldn't have been more of a big kid.

    17. RC

      And you were eight?

    18. JF

      I was eight. I was eight, and so I will never forget the first night we're there, and I don't know what's gonna happen. I don't know if we're gonna turn on the TV. I, I, I don't even know what was gonna happen. So we're eating dinner, and then we're all in this main room. It was kind of a combined kitchen and, and living room space, and I'm in the corner just eating my, I guess you call it, uh... We call it beef jerky.

    19. RC

      Okay.

    20. JF

      Okay, yeah. And I'll never forget, my grandfather, my dad's dad, just kind of sat down his plate and goes, "Not too long ago, I was having this, uh, guy who came over and this client of mine," and he starts telling a story. And I just remember stopping and going, "Oh, he's, he's telling, he's telling a story." Okay, I'm kind of listening. This is the first experience I've ever had of that. And then everybody at the punchline erupts in laughter, and then somebody else, another cousin, you know, "I had this, another client this one time," or, "One time I, I had this case," or, "One time I was in front of this judge and he said..." And they start telling stories, and it was courtroom story after courtroom story, and I'm just in awe. I mean, it felt like-

    21. RC

      Mm

    22. JF

      ... I had seen a magic show. It, it was like going to the movies for the very first time of what, like what is this? And in some sense it felt like a- as these are all, all family, these are all Fishers, and I'm going, "Oh, this is my life. This is my inheritance. This is my family. This is-"

    23. RC

      Mm.

    24. JF

      And it immediately became-That a part of our identity as a family was the storytelling, this advocacy of using their voice, and they're, they're wonderful storytellers, all trial attorneys. And so to be able to just see that as a young kid, I mean, w- that's all they did every night was tell stories.

    25. RC

      Yeah, I think you say-

    26. JF

      That was it

    27. RC

      ... something really powerful in the introduction about-

    28. JF

      Yeah

    29. RC

      ... that weekend. Yeah, here it is.

    30. JF

      Yeah.

  4. 7:25 – 8:38

    The power of words as craft: timing, tone, and shaping outcomes

    1. RC

      Looking back now as a successful trial lawyer, as a successful podcaster, as a-

    2. JF

      Yeah

    3. RC

      ... best-selling author, what do you think that weekend taught you?

    4. JF

      Hmm. It, it, it taught me the magic and power of, of words in a way I've never felt or seen before, of how one word can really shift an entire outcome. You've ever heard somebody tell a joke and it was simply the way they told it just wasn't that funny?

    5. RC

      Yeah.

    6. JF

      But you have other people who could retell that same joke, and maybe it's their timing. Maybe it's their inflection, their tone, the way they can use their voice like, uh, an artist would use a paintbrush that paints an entirely different picture. And there are great artists, and there are artists that just, uh, they, they couldn't draw you a house.

    7. RC

      Hmm.

    8. JF

      And so it was, it was a master class through every year that I went of the power of words and the art of communication and how you can capture people and create outcomes that, that lead to better things.

  5. 8:38 – 11:07

    Communication as human connection—and a lever to change your life

    1. RC

      Yeah. Is communication something that is innate in human beings, right? Let's imagine human beings 500 years ago, 1,000 years ago, 10,000 years ago.

    2. JF

      Mm-hmm.

    3. RC

      Is our ability to communicate one of the things that makes us human? And if so, why is it today so many of us struggle and hence need a book like yours to teach us how to do it?

    4. JF

      Communication is, is what creates the connection in humans. Y- you can communicate with words. You can communicate with no words. You might have the absence of sound, but that's not always the absence of communication. I, I say that our ability to communicate's what separates us. And I have a show, um, this is probably my guilty pleasure show. When I'm reading, I like to have something on, and it's the show Alone on Netflix. It's like they send people out to the wilderness out in Alaska or something-

    5. RC

      [laughs]

    6. JF

      ... and just see how long they can do. And these people who have survival skills, they can last for months out there if they want.

    7. RC

      Hmm.

    8. JF

      But they always tap out, meaning they, they go, "I don't wanna be here anymore." Not because they don't have the ability. It's because they miss humans. They miss the sound of other humans, the people in their life. Even people that they may not even have that great of a relationship with when they left, they start to miss. They start to... We- we're not meant to be alone.

    9. RC

      Hmm.

    10. JF

      It's not healthy. It's, it is not good. It wasn't good for man to be alone. It's not good for humans to be alone.

    11. RC

      Hmm.

    12. JF

      And I feel very compelled in that the words that you use is what's determinative of the life you want to lead. If you wanna change, if you're listening and you go, "I don't really like where I'm at in life right now," you can change it, and you don't need to buy a, a new software. You don't need to b- have a new company slogan. It's, it is just the decision to have a new conversation with yourself and with others. You, you choose the words you want to choose the life that you want to, to lead. It really just begins with the power of, of what you say.

    13. RC

      Yeah. You say you can change any relationship at any moment by changing the way that you communicate.

    14. JF

      Yeah.

    15. RC

      Okay? And I, I really love that idea that it's about that next conversation.

    16. JF

      Mm-hmm.

  6. 11:07 – 13:20

    Three rules of better conversations: control, confidence, connection

    1. RC

      You know? Just change the next conversation. Don't worry about the one next week or next month. Just, just focus on the next conversation. Now, your book has these three core principles of how we can communicate better and have better conversations, right? Say it with control, say it with confidence, and say it to connect.

    2. JF

      That's right.

    3. RC

      Can you go through those three things step by step and help us understand what exactly they mean and also how we can start to apply them when we're having conversations?

    4. JF

      Rule one is say it with control, and what that is in a nutshell is rather than trying to control the other person when you're having a difficult conversation, which is typically the default. That's our, our gut urge is to control you. Where you actually find success is controlling yourself. So instead of trying to control them, what you do is control yourself. That's gonna begin always a better conversation. Two is saying it with confidence, meaning how to find your assertive voice. People often feel like confidence is something they need to have before the conversation. They're saying, "Well, I'm, I'm kinda working up the confidence to s- to say this." That's wrong.Confidence is not what you have before the conversation. Confidence is the outcome. It's a feeling. It's the same thing if, if I said, "Hey, look, I need you to be sad right now. Sad as you've ever been with me right now." There wouldn't be anything to trigger that-

    5. RC

      Hmm

    6. JF

      ... to force that. Or if I said, "I need you to be mad right now," you-- there's nothing to do that.

    7. RC

      Hmm.

    8. JF

      But if I were to hit you in the shoulder out of nowhere, you might be... Now you can be mad. Why? 'Cause it came from something. How you create the confidence is using your assertive voice. So I, I teach confidence is as assertive does. Three, rule three is you say it to connect. Connection is two components. There's understanding and acknowledgement. I can understand you if you say something, but if I don't acknowledge you, you're not gonna feel connected to me. At the same time, if I can acknowledge you, but I don't really understand it-

    9. RC

      Mm-hmm

    10. JF

      ... I'm not gonna connect with you. And so you have to have these two components of understanding and, and creating connection in conversation by saying what you mean and meaning what you say.

  7. 13:20 – 17:23

    Nervous system drives tone: competition, threat response, and sounding in control

    1. RC

      Yeah. You know, as you were describing control there, for me, looking at it a different way, it was internal v. external, right? So in general, in life, we have limited control on externalities. We've got a lot more control on what's going on internally.

    2. JF

      Right.

    3. RC

      And therefore, if we apply that to what you just said, you know, if you're trying to control somebody else-

    4. JF

      Mm-hmm

    5. RC

      ... or manipulate what they say, right, you're, you're... You know, that is actually outside your control. Now, you may argue that if you can communicate well and calmly and in a-

    6. JF

      Yeah

    7. RC

      ... grounded fashion, you are actually influencing what they say, which is very clear from your work. But I love the idea that it's about gaining control over ourselves. Because I guess another way of looking at it, or I'd love your perspective on this, is it's clear to me that we see the world through the state of our nervous system, right? So if we're stressed, we're gonna interpret emails a certain way, right? So people, for example, if they've had a well-rested weekend where they've not worked, and they've switched off, and they've done whatever with their family, they can read an email on Monday morning and be pretty calm when they-

    8. JF

      Yeah

    9. RC

      ... read it. They could read that same email on a Friday afternoon after a busy week at work and interpret the email completely differently. The email hasn't changed. What's changed is the state of their nervous system, and I kind of feel that applies to communication, whereby you're gonna communicate... And you do write about this. You're gonna communicate in a way that reflects the state of your nervous system. So if you're busy, stressed, tired, that, unless you have a high degree of self-awareness-

    10. JF

      Right

    11. RC

      ... it's gonna come out through your voice.

    12. JF

      Yes.

    13. RC

      Right? So that thing about control is like, this is about self-awareness and controlling ourselves, right?

    14. JF

      Right. It is the sense of anytime we have disagreement, have that friction, the dissonance in a conversation, we quickly return to this state of competition. We wanna win, and we see it as a, a threat. Any little opinion that is different from our own, our body likes to treat it as a, as a threat. We go, "No, no, no, no. That's not... They need to agree with me," 'cause if not, then it doesn't feel comfortable. If not, then it feels like they're trying to undermine me. They're saying I'm wrong. I don't like to be wrong. I'm not wrong. And we start to try and control that narrative. "No, no, no, I need to say something so compelling that you're gonna have to agree with me," or, "I'm gonna say something that is so snappy, so, um, clap back, so powerful that you're gonna go, 'Oh my gosh, you're so right. How could I ever imagine any other opinion than the one that you have?'" And so we try and, and, and force that. Uh, that's, that's where we go wrong, is we try and force and control that conversation. Instead, when you start to control yourself, you, you also sound like you're in control, and those who sound like they're in control are the ones that are listened to and the ones that are-

    15. RC

      Hmm

    16. JF

      ... that lead. These are the ones that have the calm energy that people go, "I don't know what they have, but I like it." That... You know what? That sounds more reasonable. That's what's wild to me, is you say, what, what sounds reasonable? It's typically the person who just sounds with their voice more reasonable versus somebody who... Th- uh, the words matter far less to me than the way that you sound and the way that you make people feel. That's, that's the heart of the, the communication.

    17. RC

      Yeah. Now, what you just said was super powerful, right? So I imagine some people are gonna hear that and be thinking about the last disagreement they had with their partner-

    18. JF

      Yeah

    19. RC

      ... or their spouse, right? That's often where people go to, or their parents, whatever it might be.

    20. JF

      Mm-hmm.

  8. 17:23 – 40:57

    Breath as your first word: slowing conflict and avoiding emotional flooding

    1. RC

      Right? And what I love about how you teach this in this chapter is you talk about this three-step process, right? Your first word is your breath. Your first thought is a quick scan, and your first conversation is a small talk.

    2. JF

      Yeah.

    3. RC

      Can we focus a little bit on breathing through the lens of conflict and communication and the importance of the breath when we're communicating?

    4. JF

      Yeah. Anybody who's listening and loves your podcast, which you have an amazing podcast, by the way, is that the breath, they're familiar with that. They, they know the benefits of it. What I'm going to encourage them to do is understand the benefits of in your, your actual conversation, how you can use the breath in your communication to lead to better outcomes. What happens in disagreements is we tend to hold our breath. In fact, I would even be willing to say that a lot of people hold their breath more than they think.They might be very stressed out. Maybe they're overwhelmed at work, they're scrolling through emails or th- listening to-- You might be listening to us right now while you're driving, and you're worried about your workday, and you're holding your breath without you thinking about it. What happens? It puts you in a low-grade state of anxiety. You might all of a sudden go, [inhales] "Oh," you realize, "Oh, I'm not breathing." And your body's telling you that you're feeling like you're, you're drowning in some sense-

    5. RC

      Mm

    6. JF

      ... 'cause in a, in a way, you are kind of suffocating yourself. Well, breath and communication slows things down. If you wanna control the moment, if you wanna sound like you have more control, and you wanna have more better control over the outcome and the influence of it, let your breath be the first word that you say. Meaning wherever your first word would be in your response. Let's say you said something to me that I didn't like, or really it could be anything, but something that's gonna require actual thought, something ab-above just the casual, "How's it going? What's going on?" We often just feel like I have to have that rapid response. I need to be right there. I need to step on the end of your sentence, and I need to talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, talk. Where the actual power is, is where the first word would be, I put a breath in its place. Why? Because it gives us time. When you slow things down, it controls the moment more. Which one sounds like somebody who's someone who you want to listen to and follow? Somebody who says, reacts and goes, "Look, I already told you I, I, I'm not going to do that." "I already told you I'm not going to do that." Same words.

    7. RC

      Yeah.

    8. JF

      Which one sounds like somebody you don't wanna mess with? [chuckles] Which is one somebody who sounds like, "You know what? I could follow that guy or girl. I could follow this person. Uh, this is somebody who sounds balanced, grounded, in control."

    9. RC

      Yeah. There's a gravitas about it, isn't there?

    10. JF

      Absolutely. Yeah. The first voice sounds like, "I'm grasping for control. I need it. Give it to me. I'm, I'm not in control. I need it." The other person sounds like, "No, no, no, I, I've never lost it. I'm, I'm right here."

    11. RC

      Th-this also speaks to non-verbal communication, doesn't it?

    12. JF

      Yeah.

    13. RC

      Because it's, it's what is the energy that I'm giving off as I'm having this conversation, because people respond to energy, don't they? They respond to stress.

    14. JF

      Mm.

    15. RC

      Like people, you know, humans are a social species. We, we can mirror what's going on around us. Our nervous systems kind of respond to the nervous systems of the people around us. And so, you know, when you're able to, I guess, master your nervous system-

    16. JF

      Right

    17. RC

      ... you know, maybe master's too strong a term. I mean, if you can, amazing.

    18. JF

      Yeah.

    19. RC

      At least gain some degree of control over it, your communication is automatically going to get better.

    20. JF

      Yes, because you, you never get emotionally flooded. I mean, we've had these, uh, arguments with people in our life, typically the ones we love most, where they become shouting matches, and to where you're shouting, and you don't even really know what you're saying at some point. It, it doesn't matter if it's logical or not. It doesn't matter if it makes sense. You just know you're reacting because there's a threat. You either want to... I mean, that's why our, our fists clench 'cause your body's ready to-

    21. RC

      Yeah

    22. JF

      ... ready to swing. You may not throw a punch, but you're gonna say a hurtful word. You, you want it to cut. You want that word to sting. Same thing. Or, or people who want to-- If you've been on the phone and somebody just hangs up while you're talking or they instantly wanna leave the room, that-that's the, that's the flight. You find that in every conversation that you have. And the person that controls their nervous system, which to me is the, the number one way to do that in conversation, is your breath because it slows things down, it keeps the analytical side engaged. You know this, and, uh, a lot of your listeners, of course, know this. It is something that can improve their conversation because it never sounds like you're lost. It never sounds like you're unsure of yourself or that you're grasping or desperate or that you've lost your sense of-

    23. RC

      Yeah

    24. JF

      ... of control. And I'm very curious. I'll be asking you of, as a, as a doctor, a lot of the doctor friends that I have, they see things as kind of this triage of like if, then, if, this, of like a bunch of-- At least this is my very simplistic version of it. They see it as, uh, kind of the roots of a, a tree, of how if you can't go here, you go here, you're finding the symptoms. Do you find that kind of mentality helpful in communication or hurtful in communication? 'Cause I know doctors that some are good at conversation. There are others that are not at all.

    25. RC

      Yeah. I mean, there's a couple of ways to answer that, Jefferson. So firstly, one of the things [chuckles] that I really resonated with when reading your book is you saying that in law school you don't really learn how to communicate.

    26. JF

      Yeah.

    27. RC

      You learn the rules of law-

    28. JF

      Correct

    29. RC

      ... but not actually how to do it in, in real life. And my wife, who, when I met her, was a criminal barrister in London, um, she said the same thing here. They don't teach you actually how to do it, how to be a good-

    30. JF

      No

  9. 40:57 – 43:57

    Silence as power (and when it becomes weaponized)

    1. RC

      Okay? Now, one of the lessons is that silence is power.

    2. JF

      Right.

    3. RC

      Why?

    4. JF

      It is the one thing that someone cannot throw back in your face. It, it's... Silence can never be misquoted. Silence is not something that you can, somebody can create anything out of, so to speak. Silence gives you the power to choose. It gives you options. Is this somebody I wanna talk to? Is this something I want to respond to? Is this something that's worth my time? Is this person worth my time? It, it, it... The first thing to know about standing up for yourself is knowing, is this person worth getting out of my chair for? It is silence that puts things on pause, because you can't make me say anything I don't want to say. I can physically grab you, and I can physically manipulate you, but I cannot do that with your words. I cannot force you to say something without forcing you physically. Silence is your tool that you can have, and it's wonderful in the sense of you use it for difficult conversations. You use it for meaningful conversations. Let's say you're sharing something with me that's very deep, and you've had a very hard day. I don't need to s- fix it. I just need to sit with you.

    5. RC

      Yeah.

    6. JF

      And in that silence, holding that with... The, the therapy world would say holding that space for you, just sitting in here with you.I don't have to say anything, but at the same time, I'm saying everything.

    7. RC

      Yeah.

    8. JF

      Now, let's say you're saying something mean to me, and you say something that really hurts, and rather than responding, I just say nothing. Um, that sends another message. That's another option that I get to have, and now you have to hear those words echo back, and you have to do something with it. That's why silence is such a powerful tool.

    9. RC

      Could it be deemed as being aggressive if we use silence?

    10. JF

      You can weaponize it.

    11. RC

      Oh.

    12. JF

      Yeah. So you could-- uh, that turns into stonewalling. That turns into people ghosting-

    13. RC

      Yeah

    14. JF

      ... for no reason. Yeah, uh, stonewalling, in my opinion, is weaponized silence. You are doing it as a, as a punishment. It's punitive. It's a sense of control. If you try to-- I'm not talking about the gray rock type of stuff, where it's you have to protect yourself. I'm talking you're some- you're dealing with somebody who's a tox-toxic personality, and they just go silent on you and as a term of punishment. They want you to come groveling back. Not until you say, "Oh, I'm so sorry, can you please come back to me?" will they, you know-

    15. RC

      Mm-hmm

    16. JF

      ... graciously, in their mercy, go, "Yes, I guess you can talk to me again." So there is absolutely a way to be taking it too far, as with anything.

    17. RC

      Yeah. It kind of sort of relates back to a couple of things we've already touched on. One was when you were talking about maybe you're in a difficult conversation.

    18. JF

      Mm-hmm.

    19. RC

      Before you start reacting and just blurting out words-

    20. JF

      Right

    21. RC

      ... you're saying t-that first word is your breath.

    22. JF

      Right.

  10. 43:57 – 55:04

    The conversational breath practice: physiological sigh you can use unnoticed

    1. RC

      Okay? So you're-- What, is that an inhale?

    2. JF

      Yeah, so it's, um... You would know this as a physiological sigh. It's where it's a double inhalation, where-

    3. RC

      Yeah

    4. JF

      ... it's about three seconds in through your nose, two seconds in again at the top, and then all out through your nose again. Now, y- we can do that in a sense of very exaggerated. And I'm not, not talking about the sigh of, like, m- what my five-year-old would do of, like, "Ugh." Like, not, not that type of-

    5. RC

      Yeah

    6. JF

      ... [chuckles] not that type of breath. But you want to be able to use it, and you can do it silently. Anytime right before you say something that you need to catch a moment or if somebody's saying something that's-- you can tell you're-- it's-- you don't like and you're getting worked up. You ever heard somebody, like, making an opinion or saying something you don't like, and what happens? You-- Our bodies go , like we, we-- Everything we don't like it, we kind of start to seize up.

    7. RC

      Yeah.

    8. JF

      We start-- We take a big breath. We're like, "Oh, okay, I don't... I'm, I'm-- I don't-- I gotta, I gotta get ready," 'cause why? We're about ready to unleash all of our, our words.

    9. RC

      Hmm.

    10. JF

      And so when you hold your breath, that's why your breath has really nowhere to go except to yell.

    11. RC

      Yeah.

    12. JF

      Often, it, it decreases communication. It's the same way of, you know how, uh, at least if you're trying to find directions and you're trying to find a house and you have blaring music, you have to, like, turn down the music so you can... You're like, "Let me turn down this music so I can see." It's kind of that same mentality-

    13. RC

      Yeah

    14. JF

      ... of when somebody's yelling, you can't really listen.

    15. RC

      Yeah, it's, it's this whole we see the world through the state of our nervous system, right? That person said that thing that you didn't like, and if you start to react and hold your breath, which may be understandable-

    16. JF

      Yes

    17. RC

      ... right? You're changing the state of your nervous system, so everything is coming inward. Your focus is coming inward. You are getting prepared to fight.

    18. JF

      Right.

    19. RC

      So of course, the next words you say are gonna come out with a certain energy.

    20. JF

      You got it.

    21. RC

      So I love that sort of idea that you make it... And y- you know, that whole section that, in, in that chapter, you do sort of walk people through how you can practice this breath and get to the point whereby you're doing it naturally in conversation, where the person doesn't even know that you're doing it.

    22. JF

      Yeah, abs-- And I'm happy to do it right now if you wanna go through.

    23. RC

      Okay. All right. Okay.

    24. JF

      So if you're listening right now, let's, let's, let's practice this. I call this a conversational breath, and it's a breath that you can use, and nobody's really gonna know that you're doing it. It's-- There's nothing special. It's just the ch- it's the choice to be intentional with your breath, and let's do it together. So it's all gonna be through your nose, and it's gonna be a double inhale, meaning we're gonna inhale twice. Ready? So if you're listening, we're gonna go three seconds in through your nose, two more at the top, and then all out through your nose. Now, just listening to us right now, your shoulders should have dropped just a little bit.

    25. RC

      Mm-hmm.

    26. JF

      You're gonna feel just a little bit calmer. That's your go-to when somebody is saying something you don't like or, uh, you're about to respond. So right now, I want you, Rangan, to continue to do the conversational breath, and I'm gonna continue to say some things to you. So Rangan, I, yes, I understand you have a podcast, and yeah, it's a health podcast. In fact, it's the number one health podcast in the world. But you know what? I don't know if you're doing as well as you need to. I mean, you could be... These lights, have you seen these cameras? I don't know if I even really like these, these microphones. Now, see, as you're talking to me right now, now, see, I don't even realize that you're breathing any differently than anybody else. And so anytime somebody's saying something that's agitating to you in that sense, it's allowing you to see the depth, right? It's allowing you to see the cause rather than getting worked up and holding your breath to fight the symptoms.

    27. RC

      Yeah, it's, it's amazing 'cause you're, you're slowing everything down, right? So, you know, using that analogy of being in the car again-

    28. JF

      Yeah

    29. RC

      ... um, if your car is going fast down the street, you're not gonna be able to take everything in, right? Because everything's going by quickly.

    30. JF

      Yeah, yeah.

  11. 55:04 – 1:04:37

    Three tools to stay in control: breath, quick scan (‘I can tell’), and timing the talk

    1. RC

      Yeah. I love that. Let's, just while, while we're talking about silence, right? And the, the incredible power of silence in communication, going back to those three tools to stay in control of the moment, I kind of feel that all three of them in some way speak to the power of silence. I don't know if you would necessarily agree with that, but-

    2. JF

      Yeah

    3. RC

      ... those three tools were your first word is your breath, your first thought is a quick scan, and your first conversation is a small talk, right? Let's just go through that, and maybe we can go through that in the context of an individual who's maybe just about to enter conflict with their partner.

    4. JF

      Yeah.

    5. RC

      This is super common, right?

    6. JF

      Right.

    7. RC

      So because if we can do it through that, I'm hoping that someone can, you know, next time they're in that scenario, maybe in an hour's time, maybe tomorrow, hopefully they can go, "Okay. All right. Let me just remember what Jefferson said," right? Because I think, I think they kind of speak to silence as well.

    8. JF

      Each one does, yeah, and they're simple, quick tools and different ways of regulating your nervous system. So let's put it in two different scenarios for the listeners. One, we can have a, a personal relationship with your, with your significant other. The other is a workplace where somebody-

    9. RC

      Okay

    10. JF

      ... is asking you something of an important project, whatever it is. It's gonna be the same outcome either way. So these tools that I provide in the first How to Say Things With Control ultimately are different ways of regulating your nervous system. First word being your breath. In either context, it allows you to, where somebody's accusing you of something, you're able to slowly use your breath and kind of understand, keeping yourself from getting emotionally flooded. It's nothing, nothing more simple than that. You're using your breath to feel a little bit more grounded in the conversation, just like we did a minute ago.

    11. RC

      Mm.

    12. JF

      Now, a quick scan of what is what I call a quick, it's a quick scan. It's nothing than asking yourself, "What am I feeling in this moment?" And I like to use the phrase, "I can tell." So let's say you're in a conversation with your significant other. Maybe it's over the dishes, and all of a sudden it blends into the laundry and who does what, and you don't keep up your fair share or whatever it is. Instead of s- leading with you and you never and you always-

    13. RC

      [laughs]

    14. JF

      ... which I promise you is only going to add another layer of c- of argument about whether you always or never do it.

    15. RC

      [laughs]

    16. JF

      And then somebody's gonna say, "Well, give me an example. Name the last time that I..." And then it's just a competition of who can, has the better memory. And of course you have the better memory. I don't remember. [laughs] So instead, a quick scan is saying, "I can tell I'm getting defensive. I can tell I'm getting upset. I can tell I'm not ready for this conversation." So many times we push conversation on our timeframe and not the other person's. And so if you're feeling pressured in a conversation, say, uh, instead of reacting and getting defensive and emoting on that, it's to be able to say, "I can, I can tell I'm getting upset. I can tell I'm feeling sad. I can tell that's making me, that's making me angry."

    17. RC

      So step one is you take that slow intentional breath-

    18. JF

      Yeah

    19. RC

      ... which helps to calm things down-

    20. JF

      Right

    21. RC

      ... and regulate your nervous system. Step two is this quick scan-

    22. JF

      Right

    23. RC

      ... that you're just going through your body. What, where, where's there tightness? What am I actually feeling?

    24. JF

      Exactly.

    25. RC

      And then you use that scan to say, "I can tell I'm feeling something."

    26. JF

      Yes.

    27. RC

      So that's a way of communicating with the other person. So for example, it might be, "I can tell that I'm feeling a bit wound up at the moment, so I don't think it's the best time to have this conversation."

    28. JF

      I can tell I'm not feeling myself. I mean, that right there is a, a powerful tool in, in, in marital relationships. Instead of saying, "What's wrong with you?" Instead of forcing that, it's the, "I, I can tell I'm, I'm feeling off right now. I can, I can tell I'm tired."

    29. RC

      So okay. So if you just say that phrase, could your partner then not go, "Okay, but what's that got to do with what I just said?" Like, so I'm try- I'm trying to just play devil's advocate there.

    30. JF

      Yeah. No, I love it.

  12. 1:04:37 – 1:17:10

    Choosing your battles: skipping arguments, social media dynamics, and offense

    1. RC

      Yeah, no, I love it. What about this lesson? I love this one. Um, you don't have to attend every argument you're invited to.

    2. JF

      Yeah.

    3. RC

      That's brilliant.

    4. JF

      Thank you. [laughs] It is a, a mindset of instead of the default where somebody is engaging an opinion with you, and we're opinion-making machines.

    5. RC

      Mm.

    6. JF

      Something happens in the world, where, where does everybody turn to? Social media to share their opinion.

    7. RC

      [laughs]

    8. JF

      To who? Their audience of six people that, you know, are on their f- Facebook or something. And they... And, and they go and they flood all the comments of how much they agree, they disagree, and who's attacking who, and who's a snowflake, and who's the whatever. And that kind of behavior solves, is nothing. In effect, it's very draining. In effect, if we wanna say that's a symptom of a very bad health, uh, you know, a lot of the times those kind of people are, are unhealthy, not just physically, but mentally un- unwell. All right? So if you want to make sure that you stop attending every argument you're invited to, you need to understand that there's a priority of what's important in your life. There are people that disagree with you, and there are people who maybe don't even like you. Most likely, if they don't like you, they're not that important. You know? Uh, who, who do you wanna keep in your life?

    9. RC

      Yeah.

    10. JF

      Yeah. Who, who do you wanna surround yourself with? And I feel like any time somebody gives you an invitation to an argument, we go, "Oh, yep, absolutely. Check yes. I will be attending." And that's a, that's a one-way ticket to, um, bad health.

    11. RC

      It, it comes down to emotional awareness, self-awareness, emotional regulation-

    12. JF

      Yeah

    13. RC

      ... doesn't it? Because when you are more self-aware and emotionally regulated, I think it becomes easier to not attend every argument. When your nervous system is in high alert, when you've been busy with work all day, you didn't take a lunch break, you're in sort of that stress mode-

    14. JF

      Yeah

    15. RC

      ... it's sometimes harder to separate.

    16. JF

      Right.

    17. RC

      And I think sometimes fear is also what gets in the way of many things in our life, but also-... our ability to communicate well, right? And I think the more we're better to emotionally regulate, the more better able we are to go, "Hey, you know what? I don't, I don't wanna get involved with that."

    18. JF

      Yeah.

    19. RC

      You know? Uh, something I've learnt being online sharing information for about 12 years now is I don't have to have an opinion on everything.

    20. JF

      [laughs] Yeah. Yeah.

    21. RC

      And-

    22. JF

      Or, or you can have an opinion and not share it.

    23. RC

      Yeah.

    24. JF

      [laughs]

    25. RC

      I certainly don't need to have a public opinion on everything.

    26. JF

      Yeah, yeah.

    27. RC

      Now, people can expect me to.

    28. JF

      Mm-hmm. Right.

    29. RC

      "I should be commenting on this event." Great. No problem. I don't think I should.

    30. JF

      Right.

  13. 1:17:10 – 1:32:09

    Disagreeing without division: identity, fear of change, and political/family rifts

    1. JF

      You choose to take offense to certain things, and I, I'm of the mindset of any time you just hear change, you hear about change, it makes you uncomfortable. You hear about change in the world or somebody having a different political view than you, that's change. You're hearing, it makes you go, "Nah, I don't like that." So whenever you find and hear that change that's being communicated to you and it makes you uncomfortable, that creates a lot of that fear because we like what is safe, we like what is known.

    2. RC

      Mm.

    3. JF

      You-- Let's say I want to change your mind about something, and you have this political view. Let's say it's a religious view, for example. A-and I say that as something that's typically very crystallizing as part of somebody's identity. Well, if I just expect in one conversation I'm going to entirely disprove everything that you've ever believed, problems are gonna happen because what's most likely is I'm not just saying you're wrong. I'm saying your parents are wrong. I'm saying your grandmother is wrong. I'm saying that thing that you learned when you were a kid and you've known your entire life is all wrong, and people will, will do anything far past the point of just deciding not to listen to you in order to preserve what they know.

    4. RC

      Mm.

    5. JF

      And it is so easy for people... That's why a lot of times in a political climate, they're okay with one candidate doing it. They're not okay with another candidate doing it. They're okay if it's the side I am comfortable with. I'm not good with if it's a side I don't agree with. Why? Because we feel comfortable with what we know because it's, comes down from the people that put their value in us, and we will defend the people in our livesThat have contributed to that view. So in other words, you can say I'm wrong.

    6. RC

      Yeah.

    7. JF

      But if you're saying my dad's wrong, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Don't... You don't get to say my dad's wrong. I, I'm the one.

    8. RC

      Yeah.

    9. JF

      And so we get defensive on behalf of the people that help shape our identity, and so we will do anything to the point of just refusing to listen, even to logic, even to evidence. Even somebody presents you with evidence of saying something of why your position is wrong on it, we will boldface just disagree with it in order to protect the values that we've been raised with.

    10. RC

      Yeah. It's a great point. I mean, obviously, you are an American citizen, and, you know, American politics is, uh, very interesting these days.

    11. JF

      That's a great word.

    12. RC

      Uh-

    13. JF

      Yeah. Let's keep it to that word. Yeah, yeah.

    14. RC

      [laughs] It's very interesting, and I think 12 months ago, the statistic that I came across, uh, was that one in six US adults are not talking to another family member because of a difference of opinion-

    15. JF

      Yeah

    16. RC

      ... over politics.

    17. JF

      Mm-hmm.

    18. RC

      Which I found utterly remarkable.

    19. JF

      Right.

    20. RC

      Right? And really just speaks to what you just said, right?

    21. JF

      Yes.

    22. RC

      And I guess that, in many ways, highlights why a book like yours is so important, right? Because it should be possible for two people with completely different religions or completely different political beliefs within the same family, it should be possible to have a conversation with them-

    23. JF

      Yes

    24. RC

      ... and still love them and still respect them. You know, of course, people will argue that there are extremes, there are certain things that people can't get over. Okay, but as a general principle, you should be able to get on with people who see the world differently than you do.

    25. JF

      Yes.

    26. RC

      Which is something you don't see online much. But if I think about even my best mates from university, like, there's four or five of us, and, you know, we're, we'd be there for each other. You know, we could rely on each other for anything.

    27. JF

      Mm.

    28. RC

      Doesn't mean we all see the world the same way.

    29. JF

      Right.

    30. RC

      We, we, you know, we have differences of opinions on things. We're still best mates.

  14. 1:32:09 – 1:51:50

    Confidence through clarity: direct speech, concise writing, and removing ‘hedge’ language

    1. RC

      That speaks to something I really wanted to talk to you about today on the show, okay? And it's from page fourteen of your book, so early on, and it's all about, uh, speaking directly. Okay. Now, let me just explain a bit of background to why I've underlined this paragraph and why I wanna discuss it with you. So interestingly enough, as I think I've already shared with you, when I started going out with my now wife, she was a criminal barrister in London.

    2. JF

      Mm.

    3. RC

      And one of the things that we both noticed very early on in our relationship is that we communicate quite differently. Vid is very concise and very particular with her words, and she's very direct. When we first met, I wasn't. I wasn't concise, and I certainly wasn't direct.

    4. JF

      Mm.

    5. RC

      I would go round the houses, right?

    6. JF

      [laughs] Yeah.

    7. RC

      I don't know if that's an American phrase or not-

    8. JF

      Yeah, yeah, yeah

    9. RC

      ... but I, I wouldn't get to the point.

    10. JF

      We say beat around the bush.

    11. RC

      Beat around the bush. Okay.

    12. JF

      Yeah.

    13. RC

      Right. Now, it's really interesting. Initially, I would say, because I wasn't used to direct communication, it's certainly not how-

    14. JF

      Right

    15. RC

      ... I had mo- uh, communication modeled, uh-

    16. JF

      Mm. Yeah, yeah, yeah

    17. RC

      ... growing up, right? It certainly wasn't how I did things, and I think I had a lot of insecurity. So I would mask those insecurities by overusing words, overexplaining, over-apologizing-

    18. JF

      Yeah

    19. RC

      ... whatever it might be, right? I would say, because of that, or a consequence of that, was that I found, initially at least, Vid's direct communication, sometimes I f- I found it quite blunt-

    20. JF

      [laughs]

    21. RC

      ... and that's quite harsh.

    22. JF

      Yeah.

    23. RC

      You know, I still fell madly in love with her and married her, right?

    24. JF

      Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

    25. RC

      So to be clear, that probably-

    26. JF

      Might have worked. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

    27. RC

      It might have worked, but, but it's funny that the way I now see communication, I think, wow, that was awesome, right? Because one of the real benefits of the way Vid would communicate to me early on in our relationship was that, you know, she wasn't afraid to say what she thought.

    28. JF

      Mm-hmm.

    29. RC

      I would be. Not, not because of Vid, just 'cause, 'cause of my own personal insecurities, I would beat around the bush-

    30. JF

      Yeah

  15. 1:51:50 – 1:54:36

    Micro-phrases that change outcomes: ‘Does that make sense?’ and better prompts for understanding

    1. JF

      Yeah. The, there is... I love it, and I also can't help it 'cause I, when I hear people talking, here's another that a lot of people use, and it is, "Does that make sense?" They will add that to the end of their sentence, right? And I know why they use it. People use it because they want to make sure that what they are saying makes logical sense. Those of you listening might use it with your patients if you're a doctor. You might use it with your clients, your customers, whatever it is. You're using it to make sure that what you said makes logical sense.

    2. RC

      Which is a good thing.

    3. JF

      Which is a good thing. Now, what the other person hears is one of two things. They either hear that you don't think they're smart enough, so you need to make sure they understand it, because you don't think they got it, you don't think they grasped it, or you don't sound like you know what you're talking about, so you have to make sure that you know what you're talking about. Does that make sense? You know, I mean, that's, that's, that's what happens. So a lot of the times, let's say for a doctor, they might be explaining something very, very, very high, um, complex, and at the end they go, "Does that make sense?" And the other person, they don't wanna sound like they're dumb. They're gonna go, "Oh, yeah, yeah. That, that makes sense." And then inside they're going, "No, that does not make sense at all." Most of the time when people are asked, "Does that make sense?" We say yes, because we don't wanna say no, because we don't wanna seem like we're the dumb ones.

    4. RC

      Yeah.

    5. JF

      So what I would change that to is, "What are your thoughts?" or, "What do you think?" or, "Do you have any questions?" That's really what, that's really what you're asking for, is engagement of d- if you have any input. And if you don't really want their input, it's better that you just don't, don't say it.

    6. RC

      Yeah. That one's really interesting, 'cause I do use that. Okay?

    7. JF

      I know. [laughs]

    8. RC

      I, I do... Yeah, so you... Yeah.

    9. JF

      Yeah, yeah.

    10. RC

      I do use, "Does that make sense?" Okay?

    11. JF

      Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    12. RC

      And-

    13. JF

      It's not bad.

    14. RC

      No, no.

    15. JF

      You know what I'm saying?

    16. RC

      No, but, okay, so this is really interesting. So may, you know, I would use it to ensure that, because I am keen that what I say lands. So I would make the case that I'm saying it out of respect to make sure that, hey, if it wasn't clear-

    17. JF

      Mm-hmm

    18. RC

      ... please let me know-

    19. JF

      Mm-hmm

    20. RC

      ... and I can try and explain it a different way, okay? But I agree with you also that it actually could, if you really want to check, um, understanding, for example, there are other ways to say it which could be better.

    21. JF

      Ex- a- absolutely. Yeah, that's exactly right.

    22. RC

      Ah. Man, I love this stuff.

    23. JF

      Yeah, this is fun stuff.

  16. 1:54:36 – 2:01:31

    Drumming, tempo, and the ‘pocket’: setting the pace of a conversation + final takeaways

    1. RC

      I, I love this stuff. Um, before we wrap this up, I'm interested in the fact that you're a drummer.

    2. JF

      Oh, yeah.

    3. RC

      Okay? So as we were chatting about before, we're both keen musicians. We both played in bands for years. Uh, I am the singer and the frontman, okay?

    4. JF

      Knew it. Knew it.

    5. RC

      Yeah. And interestingly, you're the drummer, right?

    6. JF

      Yeah, yeah.

    7. RC

      And I'm thinking, okay, does that make sense to me from what I get from Jefferson, his groundedness, his self-assuredness, his, um... Yeah. His, his persona.

    8. JF

      Mm-hmm.

    9. RC

      And I think it does.

    10. JF

      Yeah, you're probably right. I've never been asked that question, but I'm seeing some similarities.

    11. RC

      So yeah, why, why do you think you became a drummer?

    12. JF

      I lo- I've always loved the drums, um, probably 'cause I like to, to hit stuff with sticks. But it, um, if you look at the comparison of percussion in music and we compare that to your words in communication, the song can sound very different depending on the drums, the tempo. Are you gonna use-More of a kind of a reggae beat? Are you gonna go halftime? Are you doing it-- Are, are, are you doing something where-- You know these videos that you can find online of people playing different drums, different methods for different styles, and you get a different, totally different outcome. My personality is that the drums set the tempo of the conversation or the music.

    13. RC

      Exactly.

    14. JF

      Same thing. And so if I want to lead the communication, I know I have to set the tempo. So I have to-- If I want-- If things are going too fast, I'm gonna pull back. If I want to make you feel comfortable, then I'm going to behave and act and communicate in the pocket, so to speak.

    15. RC

      Okay.

    16. JF

      Where you're not going too fast, you're not dragging, you're not rushing, you're right exactly where everybody feels like they're nodding. That, that, that part, uh, and for anybody who's not familiar with in the pocket, that's the part where you're listening in the, in the music where everybody sounds like they're in sync.

    17. RC

      Yeah.

    18. JF

      And you start to kind of bob your head. Why? Because it sounds good to you. It makes sense to you. It's not something that's too, too much. It's not something that's too soft. It's just easy listening. And so that kind of genre is, uh, that's probably about right, using the drumming analogy.

    19. RC

      Yeah, it was funny. I've, I've been deep into your work the last couple of days, and yesterday, as part of my research, when I found out you were a drummer, I was like, "Yeah, I think that fits."

    20. JF

      [chuckles] Yeah, I never thought of-- I never thought that.

    21. RC

      I kind of, I kind of think that fits.

    22. JF

      Yeah.

    23. RC

      I mean, one thing I've always said is that you cannot-- you can't hide a poor drummer in a band.

    24. JF

      Yeah, you can't hide a bad drummer. In the same sense of it's, you have to lead with your, your words, and you have to set the-

    25. RC

      Yeah

    26. JF

      ... the tone, the pace, and making sure that it's all in the pocket. I've always considered my, uh, personality as just always feeling like you're, you're in the pocket. You feel comfortable. You feel confident. You don't have to feel like you're overreaching. You can feel like you can connect.

    27. RC

      Yeah.

    28. JF

      Yeah, that's, that's, that's so awesome. [chuckles] I love that. We could talk music forever.

    29. RC

      We, we could. Well, that kind of actually brings us full circle back to the start when you were telling me about that weekend when you were eight years old, when you went away with-

    30. JF

      Mm-hmm

Episode duration: 2:01:32

Install uListen for AI-powered chat & search across the full episode — Get Full Transcript

Transcript of episode 2FElIqrgP_w

Get more out of YouTube videos.

High quality summaries for YouTube videos. Accurate transcripts to search & find moments. Powered by ChatGPT & Claude AI.

iOSAndroidClaudeChrome