#1 Longevity Surgeon: "Scary Thing Trapping You From A Life Of Health & Happiness" | Vivek Murthy

1. 0:00 – 2:15

   Why loneliness is a serious health threat (mental and physical)

   1. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee0:00

      Loneliness is a topic you are incredibly passionate about.

   2. VMVivek Murthy0:05

      Mm.

   3. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee0:05

      I've heard you say before that the impact of loneliness is greater than the-

   4. VMVivek Murthy0:09

      Mm

   5. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee0:09

      ... impact of obesity.

   6. VMVivek Murthy0:11

      Mm.

   7. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee0:12

      So I wonder if right at the top of this conversation, you could spell out just how damaging is loneliness-

   8. VMVivek Murthy0:19

      Mm

   9. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee0:19

      ... and why does it affect our physical health so much?

   10. VMVivek Murthy0:23

       Well, this is not something I learned about in medical school, for sure, and it's, um, surprising to many, but the, the health impact of loneliness and isolation is really profound, and w- it's m- teaches us that loneliness is so much more than a bad feeling. But when people are struggling with being disconnected from each other, it actually is associated with an increased risk in depression, anxiety, and suicide, so it really impacts on mental health. The impact on our physical health is also profound, even though perhaps even more surprising, which is that there's an increase in risk for stroke and heart disease and dementia, as well as premature death. And with premature death, like this increase in mortality that we see associated with being lonely and isolated is on par with the impact of smoking, and it's even greater than what we see with obesity. And I mention that because we, we, we are trained to understand that smoking and obesity, these are classic public health issues.

   11. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:19

       Mm-hmm.

   12. VMVivek Murthy1:19

       But it turns out that addressing loneliness and isolation is just as important because the impact on our wellbeing is just as profound.

   13. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:28

       For someone who's listening, Vivek, who has never heard about the impacts of loneliness before-

   14. VMVivek Murthy1:34

       Mm

   15. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:34

       ... I think they may intuitively understand, sure, it can affect your mental wellbeing.

   16. VMVivek Murthy1:39

       Mm-hmm.

   17. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:39

       Who wants to feel isolated?

   18. VMVivek Murthy1:42

       Mm.

   19. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:42

       Who wants to feel as though they don't have someone around them to open up to, to share-

   20. VMVivek Murthy1:47

       Mm-hmm

   21. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:47

       ... things in their life with? But I don't think people know or intuitively understand, I should say, the impact on our physical health.

   22. VMVivek Murthy1:58

       Yeah.

   23. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:58

       When you say that loneliness is as harmful as smoking, I think for some people they'll go, "Well, how does that work?"

   24. VMVivek Murthy2:05

       Mm.

   25. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee2:05

       You know, "What's going on there? Surely smoking 15 cigarettes a day is more harmful than being lonely." But of course, the data says that that's not the case.

2. 2:15 – 5:40

   How loneliness may harm the body: chronic stress and inflammation

   1. VMVivek Murthy2:15

      Yeah, and it's a legitimate question, and in fact, I, too, wondered the same thing. How is it that loneliness actually impacts your health in this way, your physical health in particular? And so I had to s- study this more deeply, understand it, you know, as I, as I d- delved into this subject. There's a lot more to understand here, by the way, and this, that's one of the reasons more research is needed. We see the effects very clearly. How those effects come about, like what biological processes are taking place in the body, is where the understanding has to strengthen, but there are some theories as to how this happens. One is, uh, and, and the one I'll, I'll mention is particularly focused around inflammation in our body. Uh, w- it turns out that when we are lonely and isolated from one another, that actually puts our bodies in a stress state. Now, a stress state in the short term can be good, right? If you get stressed before an exam or before you make a big presentation at work. Sometimes that can rev you up and focus you-

   2. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee3:07

      Mm

   3. VMVivek Murthy3:07

      ... and you can perform better. But when stress is chronic, when it's prolonged in our lives, that's when it can start to do damage, right? And that's when we see that that stress can actually lead to ill effects on our mental and physical health. And particularly with stress, what we see is that it can be associated with increased levels of inflammation in our body-

   4. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee3:27

      Mm

   5. VMVivek Murthy3:27

      ... which can, over time, damage tissues and blood vessels, increase our risk of cardiovascular disease and other illnesses. So stress and inflammation may be an explanation in part for why loneliness, especially chronic loneliness, lead to the health impacts. And lastly, just consider this also as a, as a, as a pa- parallel. Like we're all familiar with the concept of like lifting a heavy object, whether it's at the gym-

   6. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee3:52

      Mm

   7. VMVivek Murthy3:52

      ... or in your house when you're moving things. And you know if you go to the gym and you lift, you know, a weight and you curl it a few times and you put it down-

   8. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee3:59

      Yeah

   9. VMVivek Murthy3:59

      ... over time, that become, you can get stronger and stronger. But what if you pick up a really heavy weight, you curl and contract your muscle, and then you hold it like that for three hours? Like imagine the damage that that would do, like, uh, to your muscle.

   10. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee4:12

       Mm.

   11. VMVivek Murthy4:12

       That's the equivalent of what happens with short-term stress versus long-term stress. Short-term stress potentially can help you get stronger, but when your distress is chronic, when it's prolonged, it can start to damage you, and that's essentially what chronic loneliness does.

   12. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee4:29

       When I explain the impacts of loneliness to my patients-

   13. VMVivek Murthy4:32

       Mm

   14. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee4:33

       ... I always do it through the lens of the stress response-

   15. VMVivek Murthy4:36

       Mm

   16. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee4:36

       ... because it kinda makes so much sense-

   17. VMVivek Murthy4:39

       Mm-hmm

   18. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee4:39

       ... that, you know, a million years ago or 200,000 years ago in our hunter-gatherer tribes-

   19. VMVivek Murthy4:45

       Mm

   20. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee4:45

       ... if we were by ourself and we didn't have our tribe around us, well, our very clever body would be preparing us.

   21. VMVivek Murthy4:55

       Mm.

   22. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee4:55

       They know that we're vulnerable. If we were to get attacked-

   23. VMVivek Murthy4:58

       That's right

   24. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee4:59

       ... you know, the body prepares us for that, so increases inflammation.

   25. VMVivek Murthy5:04

       Mm-hmm.

   26. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee5:04

       Increases how quickly our blood will clot.

   27. VMVivek Murthy5:08

       Mm-hmm.

   28. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee5:08

       Because, of course, if we get attacked by a wild predator, instead of bleeding to death, the blood's gonna clot and it's gonna-

   29. VMVivek Murthy5:15

       Mm-hmm

   30. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee5:15

       ... save our life. And I really like that way of thinking about it because I've certainly found that patients get it-
3. 5:40 – 10:49

   Loneliness as a survival signal—and what’s changed in modern life

   1. VMVivek Murthy5:40

      Well, I think the h- human experience is to be lonely from time to time, just like the human experience is to be hungry or thirsty from time to time. Loneliness ultimately is a signal our body's sending us when we lack something we need for survival, and if we respond to that by filling that need with food or drink, in the case of hunger or thirst, or in this case with human connection, in the case of loneliness, then it goes away. So it's been part of the human experience. We recognize it. The problem and the interesting flavor of loneliness today [clears throat] is, is, is sort of the following. Like number one, we're finding that young people are actually struggling with greater levels of loneliness than older people, right? And this is a bit counterintuitive because-

   2. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee6:23

      Hmm

   3. VMVivek Murthy6:23

      ... people typically think, well, when you're younger, you're at school, you're around other, uh, you know, other kids. When you're at university, you're surrounded by other students as well. You've got a family around you.

   4. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee6:32

      Hmm.

   5. VMVivek Murthy6:32

      Like, why would you be lonely, right? But in the US, for example, we are finding that the rates of loneliness among young people are double that among those who are 65 and older, and this type of data is showing a skew toward those who are younger, uh, is popping up in other countries as well. The other thing that's different about the flavor of loneliness today compared to, let's say, 40, 50 years ago, is that fundamental changes and shifts in technology have just fundamentally altered how we interact-

   6. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee7:00

      Mm-hmm

   7. VMVivek Murthy7:00

      ... with one another, such that we can be around lots of other people, but be completely disconnected from them. I think about, for example, this, the recent university tour that we did in the United States and where we spent a lot of time talking to students about their experiences of loneliness.

   8. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee7:17

      Mm-hmm.

   9. VMVivek Murthy7:17

      And I will say just parenthetically that these events, by the way, of all the events I've done, you know, as a public official over a number of years, were the ones that seemed to generate the most engagement and demand because young people are feeling and experiencing loneliness so intensely. But what they often talked about was the fact that they had lots of people around them on college campuses, on university campuses, but they said the culture has changed such that it's not easy to just go up and talk to someone anymore. People have their earbuds in. They're looking at their phones. They are on their laptops in the dining hall. They say it's just the culture just isn't anymore, or it isn't easy to make it easy to actually go up and talk to one another.

   10. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee7:55

       Hmm.

   11. VMVivek Murthy7:56

       That is fundamentally different from how we have existed for most of humanity. Um, like we didn't exist for, for y-years in a situation where we were all together, yet weren't talking to one another, uh, or engaged with one another. So this has led to a circumstance where millions of people around the world are surrounded by others, yet feeling disconnected from them, feeling like people don't know them, feeling like they're alone, and that means that we've got to do something different, you know, than just trying to throw people together in a room and hope that they feel better. 'Cause as this has gone on over time, young people in particular are telling us that n-not only are they on technology and with people online more than they are in person, but they're also saying that their comfort with in-person interaction has diminished.

   12. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee8:42

       Hmm.

   13. VMVivek Murthy8:42

       And the pandemic played a role in this as well for young people who went through the isolation, in particular of 2020, at a very sensitive time in their development, in their social-

   14. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee8:53

       Hmm

   15. VMVivek Murthy8:53

       ... and psychological development, and many of them tell us today that, that, that they feel that the pandemic made them age backward, that it made it harder for them to actually interact with others socially, and they're still trying to catch up to that. So that's all the flavor of loneliness that I, I look at and see today, and I particularly worry about it when it comes to young people.

   16. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee9:12

       There was a book, I think it was published in around 2015, 2016-

   17. VMVivek Murthy9:18

       Hmm

   18. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee9:18

       ... called Reclaiming Conversation-

   19. VMVivek Murthy9:20

       Hmm

   20. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee9:20

       ... by Sherry Turkle from MIT.

   21. VMVivek Murthy9:22

       Hmm.

   22. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee9:22

       I'm not sure if you're familiar with it.

   23. VMVivek Murthy9:23

       Yes. Yes, I am.

   24. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee9:24

       I, I, I found that book such a fascinating read, and I remember clearly that she made the case in that book that youngsters, for want of a better term-

   25. VMVivek Murthy9:36

       Hmm

   26. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee9:36

       ... the, the children, the teenagers growing up today-

   27. VMVivek Murthy9:39

       Mm-hmm

   28. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee9:39

       ... many of them, as you just mentioned, prefer to communicate-

   29. VMVivek Murthy9:43

       Mm-hmm

   30. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee9:44

       ... electronically for a number of reasons. But one of the points she made was that from the interviews she conducted-
4. 10:49 – 13:39

   Texting vs real conversation: the authenticity gap and the skill gap

   1. VMVivek Murthy10:49

      It is, and, and we usually share that example. It's, it's very, it's really timely and, and in my head, poignant because there are two primary challenges that are introduced by that situation. One is an authenticity gap, and the other is a skill gap.

   2. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee11:04

      Hmm.

   3. VMVivek Murthy11:04

      So if I-- One of the things that's powerful about being in person is it's, it's easier to sort of auth-- you know, for, for people to understand who you are and where you're coming from because they're, they're hearing what you're saying unedited. They're also looking at your facial expressions-

   4. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee11:19

      Hmm

   5. VMVivek Murthy11:19

      ... your body language, your tone. Like all of these things contribute to how we connect with and understand each other.

   6. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee11:24

      Yeah.

   7. VMVivek Murthy11:24

      When I just see the text that you've, um, sent, when I... That's also I know that that's curated, edited, sanitized, whatever it might be. My question is, "Who, what am I-- what's he really thinking?"

   8. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee11:37

      [chuckles]

   9. VMVivek Murthy11:37

      "Wh-who am I really talking to? Do I really get where he's coming from?"

   10. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee11:41

       Hmm.

   11. VMVivek Murthy11:41

       "Get who he is?" And all that is harder online, so it's easier to be authentic in some ways, have an authentic connection when you're in person. Which is why I always say that five minutes of in-person time with someone is so much better sometimes than half an hour of texting back and forth-

   12. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee11:58

       Yeah

   13. VMVivek Murthy11:58

       ... with somebody because you can just understand somebody more deeply. But the other part in addition to authenticity is the skills part. So the truth is, like in real life, we need to know how to interact with other people-

   14. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee12:09

       Hmm

   15. VMVivek Murthy12:09

       ... whether that's ... doing a job interview, uh, in person, whether that's interacting with a customer, with a neighbor, whether that's asking somebody out on a date, you know, if you're-

   16. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee12:19

       Mm

   17. VMVivek Murthy12:19

       ... younger or figuring out how to negotiate conflict in a relationship, these are all things we have to do in person. And the question is, where do we build the skills to do that?

   18. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee12:27

       Mm.

   19. VMVivek Murthy12:28

       And if you're growing up in an environment where you don't have those opportunities because most of the interaction is online, then what happens is you start to go down a downward spiral where you become less and less comfortable with in-person interaction, so you avoid it.

   20. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee12:43

       Yeah.

   21. VMVivek Murthy12:43

       And then you, you t- tilt more toward online interactions, which makes you even less comfortable with in person, and, and down and down the spiral goes.

   22. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee12:51

       Mm.

   23. VMVivek Murthy12:51

       And then what you do is then you send kids off to university where they have to interact with people in person, and they, and it's, it's a very difficult experience for them. And, and you-- I don't blame, uh, k- students in university because if you've grown up for the last number of years, um, without that skill set, uh, because most of your interactions have been on, you know, online, then you're gonna be-- it's gonna be harder-

   24. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee13:13

       Yeah

   25. VMVivek Murthy13:13

       ... for you. So somewhere, we need to help young people build those skills, build that muscle for in-person interaction. It's ultimately more fulfilling, but that doesn't mean it's always easy.

   26. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee13:25

       No.

   27. VMVivek Murthy13:25

       Just in the same way that the first time you go to the gym, if you've never worked out, like it's uncomfortable initially to lift weights-

   28. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee13:31

       Mm

   29. VMVivek Murthy13:31

       ... to be on a treadmill, to like run.

   30. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee13:33

       Yeah.
5. 13:39 – 22:59

   Childhood training in social courage: stories from the host and Murthy

   1. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee13:39

      Yeah. It's fascinating. A- as you were talking then, I was taken back to my childhood.

   2. VMVivek Murthy13:45

      Mm-hmm.

   3. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee13:46

      And a couple of things came up for me. One is, you know, when we were kids, mobile phones did not exist.

   4. VMVivek Murthy13:55

      Mm.

   5. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee13:56

      So most families, most households would have a landline phone, certainly in the UK.

   6. VMVivek Murthy14:02

      Yeah.

   7. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee14:04

      And I remember as a teenager, if I wanted to get ahold of one of my friends from school to arrange something, I had to phone the landline-

   8. VMVivek Murthy14:13

      Mm-hmm

   9. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee14:13

      ... talk to my friend's parents-

   10. VMVivek Murthy14:15

       Uh-huh. [laughs]

   11. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee14:16

       ... and ask, you know, interact with an adult-

   12. VMVivek Murthy14:19

       Yeah

   13. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee14:19

       ... basically before you could get hold of your friends.

   14. VMVivek Murthy14:22

       Yes.

   15. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee14:23

       And we took that sort of stuff for granted, but-

   16. VMVivek Murthy14:25

       Uh-huh

   17. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee14:25

       ... the generation today, because of mobile phones, they're bypassing having to-

   18. VMVivek Murthy14:32

       Mm

   19. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee14:32

       ... talk to an adult.

   20. VMVivek Murthy14:33

       Yeah.

   21. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee14:33

       I'm not saying, you know, there aren't benefits to that.

   22. VMVivek Murthy14:37

       Mm.

   23. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee14:37

       But you do miss out on developing that skill of talking to this adult who you may not know very well. You have to, you know, exchange pleasantries with them.

   24. VMVivek Murthy14:46

       Mm-hmm.

   25. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee14:47

       They may ask you questions, which, you know, you then have to answer.

   26. VMVivek Murthy14:50

       Mm-hmm.

   27. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee14:51

       So that's the first thing which I thought was interesting. The second thing, it's funny, recently, um, I, I had a meeting with my team.

   28. VMVivek Murthy15:01

       Uh-huh.

   29. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee15:01

       An in-person meeting to, to do with this podcast.

   30. VMVivek Murthy15:04

       Uh-huh.
6. 22:59 – 27:14

   From “social by default” to “solitary by default”: why we must be proactive

   1. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee22:59

      Yeah, I think that's a really interesting way to look at it. In the past, the culture, the world around us probably meant-

   2. VMVivek Murthy23:08

      Mm-hmm

   3. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee23:09

      ... that our innate ability to connect with other humans, that's what makes us who we are-

   4. VMVivek Murthy23:15

      Yeah

   5. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee23:15

      ... would naturally be fostered and nurtured just because of the way we used to live. You had to do it.

   6. VMVivek Murthy23:23

      Right.

   7. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee23:23

      You couldn't sit at home on your smartphone and order your grocery shopping and whatever film you wanna watch. You know, you c- you can do everything by yourself now.

   8. VMVivek Murthy23:32

      Yeah.

   9. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee23:32

      Y-you know, I was explaining to my son last week, I said, "You know, in the '90s, if we wanted to watch something-

   10. VMVivek Murthy23:37

       Yeah

   11. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee23:37

       ... and it had just come out, well, it would be in the cinema first. A few months later, it would be out on a videotape."

   12. VMVivek Murthy23:44

       Mm-hmm.

   13. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee23:45

       And, you know, I said, "People on a Friday and Saturday night used to go-

   14. VMVivek Murthy23:49

       Yeah

   15. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee23:49

       ... to, like, Blockbuster video store and actually wait and queue, and there was only, like, five videos. And-

   16. VMVivek Murthy23:54

       Yep

   17. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee23:54

       ... you'd, you'd have to bring it back and rewind it." And it-

   18. VMVivek Murthy23:57

       Uh-huh

   19. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee23:57

       ... it was just-- it's incredible to think how, how quickly things have moved on from that.

   20. VMVivek Murthy24:02

       Yeah.

   21. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee24:04

       And that may seem like just such a small thing. Of course, it's nice to be able to stream any movie you want at any time, but it comes at a cost.

   22. VMVivek Murthy24:13

       Yes.

   23. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee24:14

       It comes at a cost where you no longer have to interact.

   24. VMVivek Murthy24:17

       Sure.

   25. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee24:17

       You don't even have to talk to the, the guy behind the, the till at Blockbuster and, you know, speak to them and wait for them to go and find the videotape. All those little things- I think we, I don't know, we, we've just taken it for granted. You see it everywhere now.

   26. VMVivek Murthy24:33

       Mm-hmm.

   27. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee24:33

       And I think, yes, we can look at the lockdowns in 2020 and beyond in different countries, and the impact that has had-

   28. VMVivek Murthy24:41

       Mm

   29. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee24:41

       ... but this was going on before then.

   30. VMVivek Murthy24:42

       Absolutely was. Yeah.
7. 27:14 – 28:17

   How to tell if you’re lonely: checking the quality of your relationships

   1. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee27:14

      You went on this college tour around America, and you, you shared that there was a lot of engagement, and college students were sharing just how lonely and isolated-

   2. VMVivek Murthy27:26

      Mm-hmm

   3. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee27:26

      ... that they felt. Many people know that they feel lonely-

   4. VMVivek Murthy27:34

      Mm

   5. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee27:35

      ... and/or isolated, but I think there's many people out there who don't know that they're lonely.

   6. VMVivek Murthy27:44

      Yeah.

   7. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee27:44

      That they're so busy consumed with this hustle culture, working all the time, you know, going from work to emails to social media to YouTube, so you're constantly being engaged.

   8. VMVivek Murthy27:55

      Mm.

   9. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee27:57

      And so I guess my question is, how do you know if you're lonely? How does someone hearing this-

   10. VMVivek Murthy28:06

       Yeah

   11. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee28:06

       ... say, "Okay, Surgeon General, you're, you're saying about the health problems of loneliness. I get it. I'm hearing you, but how do I know if I'm lonely?"

8. 28:17 – 33:40

   Small daily actions that rebuild connection: reach out, be present, serve others

   1. VMVivek Murthy28:17

      So that's a really important question, and I do think you're, you're right, Rangan, that our lives are getting faster and faster and filled more and more with things. It could be our job. It could be, you know, what we do on, o- online.

   2. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee28:33

      Mm.

   3. VMVivek Murthy28:33

      It could be all kinds of interactions. But the real question is, i- is about the quality of those interactions. Are they fulfilling to us? Are they making us feel like we're seen, heard, and understood? Uh, in many ways, there's a parallel here to diet, right? We can eat a lot of things. The question is, is it healthy for us?

   4. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee28:50

      Mm.

   5. VMVivek Murthy28:50

      Is it gonna sustain us? And I worry that the diet that we're consuming, our social diet, uh, in many cases is not sustaining us, that the, if we're primarily relying on social media for our social sustenance, uh, that those relationships, they're maybe a, potentially a supplement to in-person interaction, but they're not a substitute.

   6. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee29:10

      Mm.

   7. VMVivek Murthy29:11

      The way I think people know, uh, if they're lonely is, is to pause and just ask yourself a couple questions. One, do I have people in my life who know me for who I am? Do I have people in my life with whom I can truly be myself?

   8. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee29:27

      Mm.

   9. VMVivek Murthy29:28

      I can be authentic. Do I have people in my life who would show up for me in a crisis? Right? If you just think about those three questions, right, the answer really matters, and if the answer to any of those questions is, "Hmm, I'm not sure," right, then that might tell you that this is a place where you need perhaps more attention, like, in your life-

   10. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee29:50

       Yeah

   11. VMVivek Murthy29:50

       ... and more focus to build that social wellbeing and social health. Now, [clears throat] some people know, uh, that they're lonely, and many people just don't know what to do about it. 'Cause it's not easy-

   12. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee30:01

       Mm

   13. VMVivek Murthy30:01

       ... uh, to figure out, especially, um, [clears throat] if you've been feeling like this for a while. But one of the things I think, Rangan, that's really important for people to know is that addressing loneliness doesn't have to mean that you have to, you know, rip apart your life and turn everything upside down, quit your job, move halfway across the country, and... You can start with small things that will actually help to build your connection. So we know, for example, that even if you were just to take 10 or 15 minutes a day just to reach out to someone you care about- For no other reason than just to check on them, to see how they're doing. It could be a parent, it could be a sibling, it could be a friend, it could be a, uh, you know, anyone. But that done syste- systematically over time will make you feel more connected.

   14. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee30:42

       Mm.

   15. VMVivek Murthy30:43

       We also know that the quality of our connections really matter. Like, I'll tell you one thing that I used to do that I'm not proud of is back in the day, I remember, um... I still remember when like, you, I f- uh, dating myself a little bit here, but when phones developed, so you could put, like, a headset into them. And I was so excited, 'cause, uh, that meant that I could wear a headset and be on a phone call and my hands would be free.

   16. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee31:04

       Mm.

   17. VMVivek Murthy31:04

       And so that mean I could do things with my hands. I could sort the mail.

   18. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee31:08

       Mm.

   19. VMVivek Murthy31:08

       Right? I could, uh, maybe edit, like, you know, a, a document. I could do all kinds of things when I was still on the phone. That felt like it was making me more efficient.

   20. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee31:17

       Mm.

   21. VMVivek Murthy31:17

       The reality is, is it was also making me more distracted-

   22. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee31:19

       Yeah

   23. VMVivek Murthy31:20

       ... from the phone call that I was having. And so I would have this hour-long conversation with a friend, but I'd be missing things, like the nuance, like in their tone-

   24. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee31:28

       Mm-hmm

   25. VMVivek Murthy31:28

       ... right, the sort of unsaid words, and sometimes even the words themselves.

   26. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee31:33

       Mm.

   27. VMVivek Murthy31:33

       Um, so I think the other thing that we can do if we really wanna deepen our, our social connection is to think about how to make the time we do have with people really count by giving them our full attention.

   28. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee31:43

       Mm.

   29. VMVivek Murthy31:43

       And that's where putting our, our technology away when we're interacting with friends over a meal or just-

   30. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee31:48

       Mm
9. 33:40 – 36:17

   Everyday micro-connections and why they matter more than we think

   1. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee33:40

      think it's a great point you make about being of service to others, but also saying that it doesn't have to be a formal volunteering role.

   2. VMVivek Murthy33:50

      Mm-hmm.

   3. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee33:50

      Because that can become off-putting to someone who-

   4. VMVivek Murthy33:54

      Mm

   5. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee33:54

      ... may consider themselves very busy, may actually be really busy-

   6. VMVivek Murthy33:58

      Mm-hmm

   7. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee33:58

      ... for whatever reason, and hearing the benefits of volunteering, which are fantastic, might put them off and go, "Yeah, but, well, I'm too busy. There's no way I've got time to give three hours a week to an organization."

   8. VMVivek Murthy34:12

      Mm-hmm.

   9. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee34:12

      But being of service to others can be... It can be so small.

   10. VMVivek Murthy34:17

       Yeah.

   11. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee34:17

       Like I'm... You know, I don't live in London. I'm currently in London-

   12. VMVivek Murthy34:20

       Mm-hmm

   13. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee34:20

       ... uh, for the Happiness Conference and to talk to you and a variety of other things. So I'm staying at a hotel.

   14. VMVivek Murthy34:26

       Mm.

   15. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee34:27

       And I would argue that being of service can also mean, like I did this morning. There was a cleaner-

   16. VMVivek Murthy34:37

       Oh

   17. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee34:37

       ... a cleaning lady in the hotel. I took the stairs down from my room, and she was cleaning the stairs this morning. And I stopped, I said, "Hey, how you doing? Thanks so much," or something like that.

   18. VMVivek Murthy34:46

       Yeah.

   19. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee34:46

       And she didn't speak much English, but you could tell she appreciated that someone had taken-

   20. VMVivek Murthy34:51

       Mm

   21. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee34:51

       ... the time to interact with her. I smiled at her. She smiled back at me. I went on with my day. She went on with her day. Now, I know that that has a positive benefit for me-

   22. VMVivek Murthy35:01

       Mm

   23. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee35:02

       ... and for her.

   24. VMVivek Murthy35:03

       Yeah.

   25. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee35:04

       And I would argue, well, that's an act of service as well.

   26. VMVivek Murthy35:07

       Absolutely is. Yeah. It means, simply put, an act of service is anything that helps sustain and support the wellbeing of somebody else, and that could be a kind word. It could be a kind act. It could take just a brief moment in time. But that, what you did on the stairwell is, is so beautiful, right? And it probably didn't take a lot of time.

   27. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee35:25

       It didn't.

   28. VMVivek Murthy35:26

       Right? And you didn't have to plan it and put it in your calendar and block it off, you know, weeks in advance. It was something you spontaneously did, but it sounds like both of you felt better at the end of it. And that's actually why, like, y- the loss of day-to-day interactions-

   29. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee35:42

       Yeah

   30. VMVivek Murthy35:42

       ... that we have with people in the grocery store or the post office or, uh, in, in any other kind of store, why these actually are profound. Because those are all opportunities for us to have small interactions with one another. Like-
10. 36:17 – 46:26

    Loneliness, pain, and unhealthy coping: understanding the “why” behind behaviors

    1. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee36:17

       Yeah. Right at the start of this conversation, we spoke about the direct health consequences of loneliness, right?

    2. VMVivek Murthy36:30

       Mm.

    3. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee36:30

       But there's also an indirect consequence. There's something I've been thinking a lot about this year-

    4. VMVivek Murthy36:34

       Mm

    5. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee36:34

       ... is- I, I'm always thinking about the behaviors, the lifestyle behaviors that the public have, that my patients have had. You know, why is it that we often choose to do things that we know are not in our best interests?

    6. VMVivek Murthy36:51

       Yeah. Mm-hmm.

    7. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee36:51

       Right? You're in public health, so there's a lot of public health advice out there about alcohol consumption-

    8. VMVivek Murthy36:57

       Mm

    9. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee36:57

       ... what we should be doing with our diets, um, you know, how we should be living our life-

    10. VMVivek Murthy37:03

        Yeah

    11. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee37:03

        ... how many sugary drinks we should be having, all that kind of stuff. And I think that more and more, one of the reasons I believe that some of this public health guidance doesn't work that well-

    12. VMVivek Murthy37:14

        Mm

    13. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee37:14

        ... and I appreciate who I'm talking to as I say this.

    14. VMVivek Murthy37:17

        [laughs]

    15. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee37:18

        One of the, one of the reasons why I don't think it works so well for a lot of people is that it's too much of the what and not enough of the why.

    16. VMVivek Murthy37:27

        Hmm.

    17. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee37:29

        And I think loneliness really speaks here. If we're making the case that there's a loneliness epidemic around the world, more and more people are feeling isolated. We know that mental health rates are going up, we know that obesity is going up, we know that type 2 diabetes is going up, and we think the answer is more education for the public.

    18. VMVivek Murthy37:47

        Mm.

    19. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee37:48

        But what if it isn't? Right? What if it isn't saying that too much sugar is gonna be detrimental to your health? What if it's saying, well, what if your sugar consumption is a downstream consequence of the fact that you feel isolated?

    20. VMVivek Murthy38:02

        Mm.

    21. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee38:02

        You feel alone. So let's say, you know, I'm away from home at the moment, so I'm, I haven't seen my wife-

    22. VMVivek Murthy38:09

        Mm-hmm

    23. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee38:09

        ... or my kids this morning, right? And let's say I didn't sleep well, which was true last night-

    24. VMVivek Murthy38:15

        Mm

    25. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee38:15

        ... in a, in a hotel room, and I wasn't feeling my best self, and I hadn't interacted with the lady, uh, who works at the hotel this morning-

    26. VMVivek Murthy38:23

        Uh-huh

    27. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee38:24

        ... and got that little buzz of human connection. It's not impossible that that would've led to me going to a coffee shop and needing more sugar-

    28. VMVivek Murthy38:33

        Hmm

    29. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee38:33

        ... to numb that feeling of isolation.

    30. VMVivek Murthy38:38

        So this is a really good point you're bringing up, and it's very astute, 'cause I, I think you're right that the why matters, and I think people's behavior and their choices are usually a response to something deeper-
11. 46:26 – 52:12

    Societal solutions: safer tech, schools/workplaces, and rebuilding community institutions

    1. VMVivek Murthy46:26

       Well, that's absolutely true. Yeah, uh, 'cause we didn't get here by individuals slowly just changing their behavior-

    2. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee46:31

       Mm

    3. VMVivek Murthy46:31

       ... you know, on their own or willy-nilly. We got here because the environment around us changed.

    4. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee46:37

       Yeah.

    5. VMVivek Murthy46:37

       And it changed in ways that made social interaction harder and further out of reach, and a fundamentally change in nature of interaction and dialogue, and all of that had consequences for our social lives. I think to, to, uh, address that then, in addition to the so- the individual actions, we gotta think about how to change the environment to make social interaction easier again.

    6. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee46:58

       Mm.

    7. VMVivek Murthy46:58

       And part of that is about protecting us against some of the, sadly, the, the harmful elements, uh, in our, in our world right now, including technology, right? So tech is, is ultimately a tool. Uh, it's how we use it that depends-

    8. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee47:11

       Yeah

    9. VMVivek Murthy47:11

       ... determines whether it helps or hurts us. And if we want, for example, social media to be a tool that can benefit us and not harm us, we have to ensure that the platforms are actually safer, right? So right now, just take adolescence for a moment. We know that adolescence is a time of, a very sensitive time of brain development, uh, for, for people. It's a time when young people are more sensitive to social interaction and social suggestion. When you have platforms, um, that are full of features that seek to maximize how much time young people are spending on them, uh, that make them, in their own words, feel more addicted to the platform and stay up losing sleep using it at night.

    10. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee47:56

        Mm.

    11. VMVivek Murthy47:56

        When you have platforms that also prey on the fact that young people are at a stage where they will crave social affirmation, right? And so you develop like buttons and other tools to allow people to, to sort of crave and pursue, you know, positive affirmation from others. When you build platforms like that, you end up dramatically shifting people's time, you know, from the in-person world to the online world, right? And the truth is that we should do with social media what we've done with cars, right, which is to have basic safety standards that for young people in particular protect them from some of these addictive features, and features that will essentially manipulate, uh, their brain and their behavior, uh, to spend more time online, to compare themselves constantly to others-

    12. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee48:45

        Mm

    13. VMVivek Murthy48:45

        ... and to shred their self-esteem. So that is a, that's not something that a parent or a child-

    14. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee48:49

        No

    15. VMVivek Murthy48:49

        ... can figure out on their own, but it is something that policymakers can and should do, just as we did for automobiles decades ago. Now, in the UK, there's already been movement toward doing that, uh, with creating age-appropriate design codes and trying to put in policies that will move toward what I was just discussing. We have to do that in other countries as well. In the United States, um, we have to do much more when it comes to actually putting in, uh, federal safety standards so that kids have protection, you know, when it comes to social media. So that is at least one of the systemic changes that we have to make. But I would also say, look, at a systemic level, we have to recognize that if, if these are skills and tools that all people need in their lives, skills for interacting with others, starting conversation, understanding your emotions and other-

    16. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee49:36

        Mm-hmm

    17. VMVivek Murthy49:36

        ... people's emotions and managing them, that that's something we can no longer assume people will get on their own, so we have to think, how can schools play a role in providing children with the social, emotional learning and tools, uh, that they need? In workplaces, how can we recognize that connection matters both for work and outside of work and actually create, uh, both cultures and practices of connection? And I'll give you an example of something simple we do in our office. We, um, we have something very simple that takes 10 minutes a week, right, called our Humans of OSG, Humans of Office of the Surgeon General exercise, and it's, it's, it's almost, um, surprisingly simple, but it involves a group of us, you know, all of us coming together. We'll designate, you know, once a week, we'll ask two people, uh, to be the designated chairs for that week.

    18. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee50:22

        Mm-hmm.

    19. VMVivek Murthy50:23

        And we'll have one of them interview the other for 10 minutes, and it's just an interview about their life. Doesn't require a whole lot of preparation. If you and I were doing that interview, you know, one of our meetings, Rangan, I might ask you questions like, "Hey, so, so where'd you grow up? What did you dream of doing when you were younger? Like, who are the people who you looked up to when you were a kid? Uh, who stuck up for you? Like, who made a real difference in your life? Um, as you got older, like, what, what was your first job? Um, what was, like, uh, you know, a time where you felt really excited about life? Was there, uh, a time where you realized you wanted to go in a completely different direction? And what do you do for your hobbies? What inspires you now? Uh, what movies do you love watching? What do you go back to again and again when you're looking for inspiration?" I may ask you any number of questions like this. But I'll tell you this, Rangan. In those 10 minutes, we often come to learn more about someone-

    20. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee51:13

        Mm-hmm

    21. VMVivek Murthy51:13

        ... that we've worked with for maybe six months or a year than we learned in that entire time before.

    22. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee51:17

        Yeah.

    23. VMVivek Murthy51:18

        And that's 'cause we're learning about the human side of them. This is what workplaces can do as well. So the bottom line is, to solve a profound challenge with loneliness, we need individual and societal action, and this is a place where schools and workplaces, uh, where government can play a profound role and where all of these organizations, Rangan, that used to bring us together, whether they're, uh, volunteer organizations, recreational leagues, sports leagues, uh, faith organizations, participation in all of these has been declining in many of our countries-

    24. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee51:49

        Yeah

    25. VMVivek Murthy51:49

        ... particularly in the United States. We have to revive that, right? Because people need places and spaces where they can gather, but they also need a culture, you know, that is built around us coming together to celebrate, to play, to pray, to work, and to support one another. And ultimately, that is how we get through this deeper challenge of loneliness.

12. 52:12 – 1:06:33

    Parenting and policy tension: social media harms, enforcement gaps, and “banding together”

    1. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee52:12

       Yeah. You mentioned social media.

    2. VMVivek Murthy52:16

       Mm-hmm.

    3. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee52:19

       And you mentioned some of the things that policymakers can do-

    4. VMVivek Murthy52:22

       Mm-hmm

    5. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee52:23

       ... to put safeguards or restrictions in place. You have spent many years as, you know, a regular doctor-

    6. VMVivek Murthy52:35

       Mm-hmm

    7. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee52:35

       ... seeing patients, interacting one-on-one.

    8. VMVivek Murthy52:38

       Yeah.

    9. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee52:40

       Over the past few years, first of all, in the Obama administration and now in the current administration in America, you're serving as surgeon general. So this is no longer one-on-one.

    10. VMVivek Murthy52:51

        Mm-hmm.

    11. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee52:51

        It's one on 300 million or so, right? People have been talking about the perils of social media or inappropriate social media use-

    12. VMVivek Murthy53:05

        Mm-hmm

    13. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee53:06

        ... for years.

    14. VMVivek Murthy53:07

        Yep.

    15. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee53:08

        Just on this podcast alone, we must have been talking about this for the lifetime of this podcast, which is over six years now.

    16. VMVivek Murthy53:14

        Hmm.

    17. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee53:18

        I guess I'm really interested, as someone who works in public office, are you optimistic that anything is changing here? You say that in the UK some restrictions are being put in place. I guess I don't see much evidence of real change happening, and what I see is a lot of parents feeling bad, but not knowing what to do.

    18. VMVivek Murthy53:42

        Yes.

    19. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee53:43

        Because they say, "Well, I don't love the fact that my 13-year-old is on social media, but all of his friends are."

    20. VMVivek Murthy53:51

        Mm-hmm.

    21. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee53:52

        "So I feel I have no choice," for example. Now, I know your kids are a bit younger than mine. As we record this conversation, my son is 13. My daughter is 11.

    22. VMVivek Murthy54:01

        Hmm.

    23. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee54:02

        None of them are on social media at all.

    24. VMVivek Murthy54:04

        Hmm.

    25. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee54:05

        And I know for my son, he may be the only one in his year who's not on social media. Now, for me as a parent, there's this fine balance between doing what you believe is right for your child-

    26. VMVivek Murthy54:17

        Mm-hmm

    27. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee54:17

        ... but also allowing them to fit in-

    28. VMVivek Murthy54:21

        Mm-hmm

    29. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee54:21

        ... with their peers, and I make a lot of compromises on things that I don't particularly like-

    30. VMVivek Murthy54:26

        Mm-hmm
13. 1:06:33 – 1:17:06

    Taking breaks from social media: lived benefits, accountability, and “clean breaks”

    1. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:06:33

       I mean, we talk about the impact that social media has on children.

    2. VMVivek Murthy1:06:36

       Hmm.

    3. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:06:36

       And of course, as adults, our brains are much more developed-

    4. VMVivek Murthy1:06:40

       Hmm

    5. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:06:40

       ... than children, but it has a pretty toxic effect on us as well. We all fall victim to comparison when we go online.

    6. VMVivek Murthy1:06:48

       Yes. Yes.

    7. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:06:49

       And I've said it a million times, but I'll reiterate because it's so important. Your conscious brain may know logically that what you're seeing from other people is perfectionist presentation.

    8. VMVivek Murthy1:06:59

       Mm-hmm.

    9. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:06:59

       It's the best parts of their lives. But your subconscious brain is constantly picking up the idea For most of us, not all of us-

    10. VMVivek Murthy1:07:08

        Mm

    11. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:07:08

        ... for most of us, that everyone else's lives are better than our own.

    12. VMVivek Murthy1:07:13

        Yes.

    13. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:07:13

        And so for me, [laughs] it's like, of course, kids are struggling. We're struggling as adults.

    14. VMVivek Murthy1:07:20

        Uh-huh.

    15. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:07:21

        Um, so, you know, I think it's just important to, to put that piece out there.

    16. VMVivek Murthy1:07:25

        Uh-huh.

    17. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:07:25

        And it's not because we're failures either.

    18. VMVivek Murthy1:07:27

        Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

    19. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:07:28

        These products, these applications are designed-

    20. VMVivek Murthy1:07:31

        Mm-hmm

    21. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:07:32

        ... that way. And I know personally for me, although I do spend time on social media-

    22. VMVivek Murthy1:07:35

        Mm

    23. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:07:35

        ... and I do a lot of my public health advocacy-

    24. VMVivek Murthy1:07:38

        Yeah

    25. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:07:38

        ... through social media-

    26. VMVivek Murthy1:07:39

        Uh-huh

    27. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:07:39

        ... I also take four to six weeks off social media every summer, where I delete all the apps-

    28. VMVivek Murthy1:07:45

        Mm

    29. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:07:45

        ... and I go off completely.

    30. VMVivek Murthy1:07:46

        Huh.
14. 1:17:06 – 1:27:33

    Practical anti-loneliness routine + closing reflection exercise on love and relationships

    1. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:17:06

       Let's move on to practical solutions.

    2. VMVivek Murthy1:17:08

       Mm.

    3. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:17:08

       That's obviously something practical that people can do-

    4. VMVivek Murthy1:17:11

       Mm-hmm

    5. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:17:11

       ... if they feel-

    6. VMVivek Murthy1:17:12

       Mm-hmm

    7. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:17:12

       ... they have a problematic relationship.

    8. VMVivek Murthy1:17:15

       Mm-hmm.

    9. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:17:15

       And even if you don't-

    10. VMVivek Murthy1:17:16

        Mm-hmm

    11. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:17:16

        ... I would ex- I would encourage people just to experiment-

    12. VMVivek Murthy1:17:19

        Yeah

    13. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:17:19

        ... and just see how you might feel. And, you know, if it works, great. If it doesn't, okay, cool.

    14. VMVivek Murthy1:17:24

        Mm-hmm.

    15. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:17:24

        But at least experience that for yourself.

    16. VMVivek Murthy1:17:26

        Mm-hmm.

    17. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:17:28

        We've talked about the fact that loneliness is a real problem now-

    18. VMVivek Murthy1:17:34

        Mm

    19. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:17:35

        ... all across the world. You mentioned before some of the practical things-

    20. VMVivek Murthy1:17:39

        Mm-hmm

    21. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:17:40

        ... that people can do. Let's just double down on those so that we're not just presenting a problem-

    22. VMVivek Murthy1:17:45

        Mm

    23. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:17:45

        ... to people. We're actually giving them some practical things that they can do. Of course, we've acknowledged there needs to be policy change in a whole variety of different areas. We'd like to see certain schools, you know, have certain policies in place over technology, over phones, what they encourage at school, how they communicate with the kids, and all that kind of stuff. But on an individual level, let's just go through what someone who feels, "Yeah, you know what? I think I'm a little bit lonely."

    24. VMVivek Murthy1:18:14

        Mm-hmm.

    25. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:18:14

        "What can I actually do?" Let's just go through that right at the end here, if that's okay.

    26. VMVivek Murthy1:18:17

        Sure. Let's do that. So, you know, I'd say, like, drawing from our, our original list, I'd say, look, number one is regularity of interaction matters, and so finding 10 to 15 minutes a day to reach out to someone you care about, phoning them, uh, visiting them in person, stopping by to see them at the end of the day, these 10 to 15 minutes make a big difference, and it doesn't have to be complicated. You just call. I could call you, Rangan, and say, "Hey, I just wanted to see what's going on."

    27. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:18:46

        Mm.

    28. VMVivek Murthy1:18:47

        "How are you? How's your mom? How are your kids? Um, how's your wife?" That, it's not about what you talk about. It's about just having a genuine, authentic interaction with someone you care about. It's-

    29. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:18:58

        So can I say on that-

    30. VMVivek Murthy1:18:59

        Yeah

Episode duration: 1:27:33