Skip to content

By playing, you agree to uListen's Terms and Privacy Policy and YouTube's Terms of Service.

Dr Rangan ChatterjeeDr Rangan Chatterjee

#1 Neuroscientist: Truth About Stress, Belly Fat, Coffee, Alcohol, Diet & Journaling -Dr. Tara Swart

To get 1 year's FREE VITAMIN D and 5 FREE TRAVEL PACKS visit For today’s brand new episode, I’m pleased to welcome back the wonderful Dr Tara Swart.

Dr. Rangan ChatterjeehostDr. Tara Swartguest
Jan 10, 20242h 5mWatch on YouTube

Summaries, chapters, transcripts, and FAQs on this page are made by uListen, not YouTube.

Great conversations run long. Their best ideas don't have to.

uListen is free on iPhone, iPad, Android, Chrome, and Claude.

See how

Transcript

  1. 0:00 – 9:33

    What Stress Is and How It Affects the Body

    1. RC

      Tara, you have been a medical doctor, psychiatrist, executive coach, you're a neuroscientist, and I think one of the topics that people are talking a lot about these days is stress.

    2. TS

      Mm-hmm.

    3. RC

      So right at the top, I'd love to understand, when you hear the word stress-

    4. TS

      Mm-hmm

    5. RC

      ... what does it mean to you?

    6. TS

      So when you introduce me like that, like, you know, "You're a doctor, psychiatrist," it makes me, made me feel a bit like, oh, I'm just like a jack of all trades, but as soon as you said the word stress, each of those roles made sense to me. So I define stress as when the load on your body or mind is too much for you to bear. So as a medical doctor, as a junior doctor, if I saw somebody, um, in A&E that was having a heart attack, that is, that's stress on their cardiovascular system. As a psychiatrist, if I saw people who had a breakdown of their psychosis or their depression, that's stress on their mental state. And then I changed career at a really interesting time because, um, having been a psychiatrist and starting, you know, from the bottom of the ladder into executive coaching-

    7. RC

      Mm

    8. TS

      ... the fact that it was the time of the financial crisis when people were under a lot of stress, there were high-profile suicides and, you know, in Canary Wharf in London, um, there were a lot more people having heart attacks from str- you know, caused by stress, um, that was actually something that I could address. So, so it sort of made sense that a psychiatrist and medical doctor would come into the executive coaching space in financial services at that time. And then as a neuroscientist, I would say that's where the stress piece really lands for me because your brain's perception of what is going on is gonna have this cascade effect on the rest of your body. So if you perceive, w- basically, your brain perceives that, you know, there's a threat to your survival, then it's gonna signal for your cortisol levels to rise, so your adrenal glands will release more cortisol. That goes around in the blood. It crosses the blood-brain barrier, and the receptors in the brain can see that you're on high alert all the time. And so that process is pro-inflammatory, so that has all sorts of knock-on effects on your cardiovascular system, your immunity, your gastrointestinal system, and it's very dehydrating. So you know, that can show up on your skin, in your hairs, your scalp. And, and, and the other thing is that as a very ancient survival mechanism, that encourages storage of fat in the abdominal fat cells. So basically, you would kind of have very dry skin, frizzy hair, a bigger belly that you can't shift, um, sleep disturbance, probably some kind of digestive problems, and it's all, you know, what's behind all of that is stress.

    9. RC

      Yeah. It's, it's incredible, like when you really understand the physiology of the stress response-

    10. TS

      Mm

    11. RC

      ... and how it affects every single organ system.

    12. TS

      Mm.

    13. RC

      Then you understand why many doctors, including myself, say that 80 to 90% of what we see in any given day-

    14. TS

      Mm-hmm

    15. RC

      ... is in some way related to stress, right?

    16. TS

      Mm-hmm. Absolutely.

    17. RC

      Stress has such a massive impact on physical health, mental health-

    18. TS

      Mm-hmm

    19. RC

      ... emotional health.

    20. TS

      Mm.

    21. RC

      You mentioned stress and belly fat there.

    22. TS

      Mm-hmm.

    23. RC

      And I think if we just, if we just stay on stress and physical health for a moment-

    24. TS

      Yeah

    25. RC

      ... clearly, many people around the world are trying to lose excess fat on their bodies-

    26. TS

      Mm. Mm-hmm

    27. RC

      ... for a variety of reasons, sometimes vanity, sometimes health, whatever it might be, right? And there is this obsession around diet.

    28. TS

      Mm-hmm.

    29. RC

      And of course, diet is important.

    30. TS

      Mm.

  2. 9:33 – 13:58

    How Men and Women Handle Stress Differently

    1. RC

      I'd love to know, in your experience, do women and men handle stress differently?

    2. TS

      Um, obviously these are generalizations.

    3. RC

      Yeah.

    4. TS

      But I would say, you know, what I hear when I'm, you know, in a taxi talking to the taxi driver or just, you know, me with my girlfriends or whatever is, it's still this idea that men don't talk to each other about things like stress and mental health as much as women do. Um, but on the other side of the coin, I think that because of this myth that women are better at multitasking than men, women put a lot of pressure on themselves to do everything, be everything. You know, be the mom, the wife, still have a career, um, you know, do your fitness. Often with the kind of type A personalities that I work with, they've got a super, super stressful job, like they're a law firm partner, and they go and do really high-intensity exercise, and I'm always telling them, "That is spiking your cortisol, so actually you are exactly the kind of person that should be doing more gentle exercise because of your, like, you know, your personality type and the stress of the job that you've got." Um, and I think that women under stress can either, you know, skip meals or, because of the pressure of being a certain weight, they can be dieting in a way that's not actually healthy and helpful. So I think that contributes to, you know, stress on the system. Because if you're not properly fueled, then it's really hard to do all the things that you need to do. So I think there are different issues for, you know, the two genders that we're talking about, and there is some research that shows that men are very good at adaptive stress responses. So if there's a crisis, they can deal with that and, um, for, you know, a short period of time, but they need then to, like, just, you know, go away and hide in the cave and recover.

    5. RC

      Mm-hmm.

    6. TS

      Whereas women find ways to recoup their resilience better during long periods of stress.

    7. RC

      Wow, that's interesting. You mentioned men, and it's, it's a bit of a cliché, but, uh, but it also is true from what I've seen, both as a doctor but also in my personal life or what I've experienced and what I've seen in my friends.

    8. TS

      Mm-hmm.

    9. RC

      You said that men traditionally haven't opened up as much as women.

    10. TS

      Mm-hmm

    11. RC

      Why is that important, especially if we think about it through the lens of the brain?

    12. TS

      Um, because there's two main ways to offload stress from your system. One is physical exercise, which sweats out the cortisol from your body, and the other one is speaking out loud or possibly journaling as well, but I think speaking, you know, speaking with someone because then you've got that sort of social connection piece. But instead of ruminating on your thoughts, if you actually get them out of your brain body system, that reduces your cortisol levels, too. And I think... And, you know, I imagine that you confide in your wife. I think a lot of men confide in their wife, but I think that confiding in other men is still not happening as much as it could.

    13. RC

      Look, the truth is, Tara, this is something I've realized is an issue in my own life over the last few years.

    14. TS

      Mm-hmm.

    15. RC

      Because my best mates are still the mates I made at university.

    16. TS

      Yeah.

    17. RC

      And they live hundreds of miles away from me.

    18. TS

      Oh.

    19. RC

      And so literally four weekends ago, we got together, we went to Wales for a weekend.

    20. TS

      Oh, yeah.

    21. RC

      And, um, it was a very different weekend from how we might have done it in our 20s. We went walking in the hills.

    22. TS

      Yeah.

    23. RC

      And it was amazing.

    24. TS

      Yeah.

    25. RC

      It was just three of us actually.

    26. TS

      Mm.

    27. RC

      But I think we really opened up and shared things with each other-

    28. TS

      Mm

    29. RC

      ... that I don't think we, we have done in ages.

    30. TS

      Mm.

  3. 13:58 – 22:00

    Stress, Decision-Making and Becoming a Different Person

    1. RC

      What's the impact of stress on our ability to make decisions?

    2. TS

      Yeah. So basically when those receptors in the brain sense these high levels of cortisol, another thing that they do is they reroute the blood supply. Because they're p- they're perceiving an imminent threat to our survival, they don't want to give up resources for things that are not crucial to our survival. So basically thinking flexibly, regulating your emotions, suppressing your biases, solving complex problems, being creative, being imaginative, you don't need to do any of that to survive.

    3. RC

      Mm-hmm.

    4. TS

      So I call it going into low power mode. You know, bl- the blood supply is really just going to the parts of the brain that need you to wake up in the morning, do the minimum amount of self-care, make sure you don't lose your job. Um, but in terms of, you know, that complex decision-making, where normally the prefrontal cortex is regulating the emotions that are coming from the amygdala, that regulation becomes less good. So in the stress state, um, we're likely to experience emotions like fear or anger or shame, and, um, that has a very negative effect on our decision-making power.

    5. RC

      You mentioned two terms there, the prefrontal cortex and the amygdala.

    6. TS

      Mm-hmm.

    7. RC

      What are they?

    8. TS

      So the amygdala, amygdalae are two almond shaped structures that are in the limbic system, which is the... So it's the sort of size and shape of your clenched fist. It's deep inside your brain, and then the cortex is the part of the brain that's around that. And in that system, there are these two almond shaped structures, which is where all of our basic emotions start from. But the limbic system and the cortex, they're talking to each other all the time, and the prefrontal cortex is just the part of the outer cortex that's here at the front. Um, when we experience an emotion, the prefrontal cortex can kind of regulate that, so it's not too extreme. Um, but when we have high levels of cortisol, then we're, we're experiencing more of these what we call survival emotions, and the prefrontal cortex is getting less of the blood supply with the oxygen and the glucose in it, so it's less able to regulate those emotions.

    9. RC

      It's become very clear to me over the past few years that if who we are in the world is essentially related to the tuning of our nervous system, then it kind of means that if you are chronically busy, overworked, and overstressed, you are literally becoming a different person. And then if you follow that logic, it begs the question, like, who are we? Like, do we even know who we are if we are that stressed all the time?

    10. TS

      Mm.

    11. RC

      Fr- from my perspective, if I think about who I am today compared to, let's say, 12 years ago-

    12. TS

      Mm-hmm

    13. RC

      ... when my dad was alive and I was in the thick of caring for Dad-

    14. TS

      Mm

    15. RC

      ... whilst, you know, I was married, had f- a family-

    16. TS

      Mm

    17. RC

      ... uh, a job as a busy GP-

    18. TS

      Mm-hmm

    19. RC

      ... and I was also helping my family care for my father-

    20. TS

      Yeah

    21. RC

      ... I cannot believe what I used to do. Now that my life compared to back then-

    22. TS

      Mm-hmm

    23. RC

      ... is so much calmer-

    24. TS

      Mm-hmm

    25. RC

      ... and more under my control-

    26. TS

      Mm-hmm

    27. RC

      ... than it was back then, I think I was a different person. I think the same elements of Rangan were still there.

    28. TS

      Mm.

    29. RC

      But actually the way I saw the world-

    30. TS

      Mm-hmm

  4. 22:00 – 27:43

    Journaling, Metacognition and Spirituality

    1. RC

      What does this metacognition term mean? You, you sort of gave us a brief explanation, you know, thinking about the thoughts.

    2. TS

      Mm-hmm.

    3. RC

      I know you're a huge fan of journaling.

    4. TS

      Mm-hmm.

    5. RC

      We've covered that in the past, but I'd love to talk about it again, because I think it is such a powerful tool for people-

    6. TS

      Mm

    7. RC

      ... um, to improve their physical, mental, and emotional wellbeing.

    8. TS

      Yeah.

    9. RC

      Is journaling a type of metacognition?

    10. TS

      It is if you read back over your journal entries. So just the act of writing into it may not be enough, because you're writing in that moment where you believe what you've written is absolutely true. Uh, or it is just a representation of what you're feeling in that moment. When you read over it, that's when you can practice metacognition, which is to question what you've said. Um, it's very difficult to question it in the moment that you've just written it, because you wouldn't have written something that you didn't think was the case. Um, so I think that, a few things here, if there are people who say, for whatever reason, "I have nobody that I would confide my, you know, deepest mental, emotional issues to," then journaling is a, a good way to get that out of your brain-body system. So I just... You know, I mentioned earlier about speaking out loud, preferably with someone, but journaling is a good second option. Um, so in terms of, um, just, you know, gaining self-awareness and practicing metacognition, reading back the last three months or six months or something, seeing if there are patterns, seeing if what you wrote then still feels true now, that's a good practice. And you mentioned that journaling is good for physical, mental, and emotional wellbeing.

    11. RC

      So many patients tell me that life just feels like a blur because of the pressures that so many of us face, the busyness, the overwhelm, the endless to-do list. I've heard it time and time again, "Why haven't things changed? Why can't I bring these healthy habits into my life and make them stick?" I've been a medical doctor for over two decades, and I have to say one of the most transformative practices I have ever seen is the practice of journaling, because it breaks the loop. We have these unconscious patterns, these subconscious patterns running our lives. We don't realize how many anxieties, and worries, and concerns we have whirring around, and journaling is a very simple way to get the stuff out of your brain. You get it down to paper, and you see it, and that does something really, really powerful. When does a new diet that you were following fall by the wayside? When does the new healthy habit that you were sticking to start to fall off track? That's the self-awareness that journaling is gonna give you. When people ask the right questions, they get the right answers, and those right answers allow them to change their life. Take up journaling today and watch your life start to change.

    12. TS

      But I think it's really great for spiritual evolution as well, because even if you just do 10 things I'm grateful for, you're practicing gratitude through your journaling, so you're kind of, you know, actually doing a spiritual practice as well. And, and you could do more than that. You could, um, you know, whether it's whether you made a decision with your intuition or your logic, or whether it's, you know, recording that you've been practicing some chanting or some drumming or, um, what, you know, what your experiences are mentally and physically of spending time in nature. If you record all that, then you're kind of evolving spiritually as well.

    13. RC

      What does spirituality mean to you?

    14. TS

      So when I do my quadrant exercise with people, which is, um, physical, mental, emotional, and spiritual, the way I describe it is physical is what you feel in your body, mental is what's going on in your thoughts, emotional is how you're feeling in your emotions, and spiritual is something that's not described by those other three, um, and is just a sense of how you are in your spirit or your soul. Um, and if you're not comfortable with words like soul or God, then it can be, you know, how you're f- how you feel your values are being upheld. Because having your values crossed in any way is kind of like, it's a boundary transgression, and that hurts, like, deeply. You know, it's not just emotional, mental, or physical. It's, it's something more than that. It's your integrity. So, and I say that... You know, I mean, spirituality means a lot more than that to me personally, but in terms of the way that I've posed it in The Source, was to take away any, you know, any conflict that someone might have about their own religion or faith or lack of, and just saying, you know, there is something more than what you feel physically and what goes on in your thoughts and what goes on in your emotions.

    15. RC

      We've been talking about stress and the impact that chronic, unrelenting stress can k- can have on us, right?

    16. TS

      Mm-hmm.

    17. RC

      And you just mentioned about spirituality and how if our values are being crossed, that's a boundary transgression.

    18. TS

      Mm-hmm.

  5. 27:43 – 39:05

    Burnout, Values and Trust

    1. RC

      One thing I've been thinking about recently is the causes of burnouts.

    2. TS

      Mm-hmm.

    3. RC

      And obviously it's, you know, we can say, "Yeah, it's too much work. It's not enough time to rest and recover." And of course, those things are important, but more and more, I'm led to the belief that a huge cause of burnout for people is not living a life in accordance with their values.

    4. TS

      Oh, yeah. Absolutely, yeah.

    5. RC

      And I think that was so interesting to me, this, this boundary transgression. I think we can link that to chronic stress.

    6. TS

      Mm.

    7. RC

      And yes, I recognize that some people don't have much choice or autonomy-

    8. TS

      Mm-hmm

    9. RC

      ... in their work, let's say.

    10. TS

      Mm-hmm.

    11. RC

      I, I recognize that, but I think for many people, it ain't just the workload-

    12. TS

      No

    13. RC

      ... it's also what they're doing on a daily basis.

    14. TS

      Yeah, and I think it's two things. One is that... So you could take two people, let's say you and I, and we could have the same job, like we've actually had in the NHS as junior doctors, and one of us could burn out and the other one doesn't. Why is that? So partly, there are things that you can do to build your mental resilience, to build your resilience to stress. So if you have those tools and practices, if you've been doing them for years or you, or you, you know, incorporate them now, that can help you to withs- withstand stress. But the other thing is that there's clearly different thresholds for different people of what causes them to actually burn out. So, you know, let's say you get-- someone gets divorced. Some- someone might find it a difficult experience but, you know, get through it, move on, and somebody else might completely break down. So basically, two things. One is that we each have our own starting point or threshold, and two, we can do things to build that up. And I really found that actually in the pandemic, around the time that we last, you know, we spoke on the podcast, is that because I had been practicing yoga and meditation and, you know, walking in nature and bathing with salts and, you know, just all the thing, journaling. Because I'd been doing those things for so long, I could, I could really immediately draw on the help that I can get from those things. Um, but, you know, a message that I kept putting out there is that even if you've never done these things before, if you start now, it will help you.

    15. RC

      If someone says to you, "Tara, like I hear all this stuff that you're saying about values, I know how important they are, but how do I find my own?" What do you say to them?

    16. TS

      Um, the first thing I say is, "What characteristic do you most dislike in other people?" 'Cause the chances are that the opposite of that is your most strongly held value.

    17. RC

      I love that question. See, it's interesting, when I hear that question, I think that, but I also think something else, right? I think that many of us dislike qualities in other people that we have within us-

    18. TS

      Mm-hmm

    19. RC

      ... as well.

    20. TS

      Mm.

    21. RC

      And the reason we dislike it so much is because we don't like it in ourselves-

    22. TS

      Yeah

    23. RC

      ... but it's easy to not look inward and change something in ourselves. It's much easier to make a judgment of someone else.

    24. TS

      Yeah.

    25. RC

      What do you think to that?

    26. TS

      I mean, there's obviously truth to that because psychologically that would be described as, you know, something that's in your shadow, the shadow of your personality. So, um, what tends to go in there are the things that you worked out as a child, that if you did those things, you would get rebuffed by your primary caregivers. So you would hide those things away into your shadow. You know, things like, "Oh, don't show off," or, "Stop being so bossy," or, you know, "Share with your brother," you know, "Stop being so mean." Um, so those things, yeah, that can absolutely happen. But I think you have to separate that and because... Okay, let's say, so generosity is my top value. So if I thought that that's because I actually feel like [laughs] I'm not very generous, I think I would know. But, um, you know, and I'm not, I'm not just talking about money. I think, you know, generosity of spirit, generous with your time. When I see people who could do something for somebody else, but they don't do it, that ki- you know, I really notice that. Um, and I don't think that I'm guilty of that one, let's say.

    27. RC

      So let- let's say, let's take you, right? You've- you've- you've shared that generosity is one of your, your top values.

    28. TS

      Mm-hmm.

    29. RC

      How, how does the knowledge of knowing that-

    30. TS

      Mm-hmm

  6. 39:05 – 51:10

    Decision-Making Tools and What Intuition Is

    1. RC

      So you say you trust your gut a lot, I think, when you make decisions.

    2. TS

      Mm-hmm.

    3. RC

      Right. So if we're gonna follow everything we've just said throughout the course of this conversation so far, right, in order to trust your gut, you can't be stressed, rushing around, overly busy. How do you then... Because so many people really struggle with this.

    4. TS

      Mm.

    5. RC

      The reason I'm, I'm spending a long time on this chronic stress is because I've seen firsthand how many people this impacts.

    6. TS

      Mm-hmm.

    7. RC

      Right? Physical health, mental health, emotional health, the whole shebang-

    8. TS

      Mm

    9. RC

      ... when we're chronically stressed. And I genuinely believe that a lot of us don't even realize how stressed we are.

    10. TS

      I agree.

    11. RC

      We, we just got used to that as our normal state.

    12. TS

      Yeah.

    13. RC

      So our decision-making comes from that place of stress-

    14. TS

      Mm

    15. RC

      ... which is why I think we find it hard to operate from love and trust and joy and compassion.

    16. TS

      Mm.

    17. RC

      Because of that, what can people do? How do you do it? How d- how do you know when you're making a decision if it is really coming from trust or it's coming from fear?

    18. TS

      Oh, I mean, I can tell the diff- I, I can feel physically when, when I'm making a decision, like what state I'm in.

    19. RC

      In your head or in your body?

    20. TS

      In my body.

    21. RC

      So what happens?

    22. TS

      Um, so may- maybe both, but, like, if I'm... Because, you know, ev- even I go [laughs] in between those. I'm not constantly, like, walking around in a love bubble. Um, you know, if I'm smiling, if I'm feeling calm, um, if I'm, like, you know, moving relatively more slowly, then, you know, I can tell that I'm in parasympathetic, which is basically, like, rest and digest-

    23. RC

      Mm

    24. TS

      ... or rest and relax. When I'm feeling agitated, you know, my facial expression is not, you know, it's kind of, like, down, um, when my, like, thoughts are, like, racing more, then I know that I'm, I'm probab- you know, I'm not gonna be making the best decisions that I can. And, and often it comes with that feeling of, "I can't decide. I can't..." You know? Like something that, a decision that you need to make, you just feel like you can't make it.

    25. RC

      Mm-hmm.

    26. TS

      It just feels very cloudy. Whereas when you're in the trust and love state, things feel very clear. Um, what I tend to do, what I've learned to do at that time, is think of three people in, you know, family or friends that I trust who would have a relevant opinion to the decision that I'm trying to make. So, you know, it's three d- could be three different people each time. And I ask each of them what their opinion is, and, and then I will use that to try to inform my opinion. But also, I'll try to wait till I'm, you know, in a better state before I make a final decision.

    27. RC

      When you are asking your family or friends, are you literally calling them and asking them?

    28. TS

      Yeah.

    29. RC

      And the reason I ask that is I, is because I had Shane Parrish on the show-

    30. TS

      Mm

  7. 51:10 – 54:12

    Training Your Intuition Through Journaling

    1. RC

      How do we tap into our intuition? If we wanna get better at it, if we wanna go, "Look, I, I like the sound of that, Tara. I want-

    2. TS

      Mm-hmm

    3. RC

      ... I, I've forgotten what intuition feels like-

    4. TS

      Yeah

    5. RC

      ... what it looks like for me.

    6. TS

      Yeah.

    7. RC

      How can I retap into it?

    8. TS

      Mm-hmm.

    9. RC

      What would you say to them?

    10. TS

      So if I- I'll just finish off with that example, and then I'll speak a bit more generally. With, with that example, I would say if you recognize that you have been in that situation before, and maybe you've, maybe you've been in that situation and, and you've said, "You know what? If I get to the stage in a relationship where we're, we're actually both miserable, it's not gonna last forever, it would be better to, like, end it quick sooner, you know, it's less painful for everyone," that you remember that the next time and that you act on it, and you do something differently to demonstrate to yourself that you're not just repeating the same pattern.

    11. RC

      Mm.

    12. TS

      But more generally, I do think journaling is a really great way to hone your intuition. That's how-- I think I was, I was using intuition, but it-- when I first started journaling, that was really how I built my intuition into a superpower, was through journaling. So what I would do, with every decision that I had to make, I would write down what logic was telling me, and I would write down what intuition was telling me. Now, if they were saying the same thing, that was fine. That's easy. If they weren't, then most people's tendency is to go with logic. So what I would suggest is that in a low-risk sc- scenario, if your logic and your intuition aren't aligned, do an experiment and go with the intuition and see what happens, and write it down. Um, and then as you become more confident in your intuition, do it with something that's a bit more, you know, high stakes. And through pretty much, you know, experimenting like that, a period of trial and error for me, I got to the point where I, I had-- I could convince myself with the data that my intuition was always more accurate than my logic.

    13. RC

      I love that. So you ran an experiment on yourself, basically.

    14. TS

      Mm.

    15. RC

      I love that. In low-risk situations, give it a go-

    16. TS

      Yeah

    17. RC

      ... 'cause who cares?

    18. TS

      Yeah.

    19. RC

      Doesn't really matter.

    20. TS

      Yeah.

    21. RC

      And I guess, you know, what's a common scenario? It might be, I don't know, applying for a job, or someone's got three job offers or three jobs. They, they can't decide, right?

    22. TS

      Mm.

    23. RC

      So that's a, presumably for most people, quite a high-stakes decision.

    24. TS

      Mm-hmm.

    25. RC

      But I guess the lesson is, if you've been practicing for a period of time-

    26. TS

      Mm

    27. RC

      ... let's say with journaling, then when that high-stakes decision comes into your life, you've got evidence-

    28. TS

      Yeah

    29. RC

      ... to kind of say, "Hey, listen, I know that usually my intuition is correct."

    30. TS

      Mm. Exactly.

  8. 54:12 – 1:05:54

    Becoming Your Own Expert: Interoception and Daily Practice

    1. RC

      One thing, Tara, I've been thinking a lot about recently is this idea that people, I think, especially today, because we live in this era of information overload, right? Let's even talk within our, you know, our wheelhouse, health and wellbeing, right?

    2. TS

      Mm. Mm.

    3. RC

      There's a million experts online-

    4. TS

      Yeah

    5. RC

      ... right? We're not all saying the same thing, and- What I see often happening is that people have an overreliance on experts.

    6. TS

      Mm-hmm.

    7. RC

      And what I mean by that is not that they shouldn't listen to experts, but that let's say you were saying one thing-

    8. TS

      Mm-hmm

    9. RC

      ... and they like you and they trust you, and they go, "Wow, you've got all the minerals, you've got all the qualifications-

    10. TS

      Mm-hmm

    11. RC

      ... and the experience"

    12. TS

      Mm-hmm.

    13. RC

      And let's say you have a particular perspective on one thing.

    14. TS

      Yeah.

    15. RC

      And then they also like me and go, "Yeah, but you've also wrong and got the minerals and the experience and the qualifications-

    16. TS

      Mm.

    17. RC

      ... but you're saying different things."

    18. TS

      Yeah. So let's, let's give a concrete example for that. So I don't eat breakfast, so I only eat between 12:00 and 8:00. So let's say... I'm not-- I'm just saying what I do, I'm not saying everybody should be doing that. [laughs] But you know, let's say that you s- I say I don't eat breakfast, and you say you do eat breakfast, and we've both got the same qualifications. So I think what you're trying to say is that then each person has to think, "Okay, there are pros and cons to eating breakfast or not eating breakfast. What is right for me?"

    19. RC

      Yeah.

    20. TS

      Each person should know their body better than any doctor or expert.

    21. RC

      Agreed. It's exactly what I'm trying to say. Yeah.

    22. TS

      Mm.

    23. RC

      And so I guess what I'd love your perspective on is for people who are listening to this right now, who do get into a jam on those things and go, "Man, I, I find it confusing when, I don't know, this guy says low carb, and this person says plant-based-

    24. TS

      Mm

    25. RC

      ... and I don't know what I should do"

    26. TS

      Mm.

    27. RC

      How do you help that person become their own expert?

    28. TS

      Um, it's, it is quite hard because, you know, even with like the team of people that work for me, they'll, they come to me for the latest on, you know, what should you be eating, what should you not be eating? And-

    29. RC

      We'll be back to the conversation in just a moment. Now, many of us struggle to find time to eat all of these incredible whole foods. That's why I'm a big fan of good quality whole food supplements like this one that's been in my own life for over three years now. It contains over seventy-five whole food source ingredients, vitamins, minerals, pre and probiotics, and can help us support our energy, focus, digestion, and our immune system. AG1 are giving my audience a fantastic offer, one-year supply of vitamin D and five free travel packs with your first order. You can see all details at drinkag1.com/livemore, or just click on the link below. And now back to the conversation.

    30. TS

      I remember one of them asked for Christmas to get, um, one of those food intolerance tests that you can get, and I said, "Why don't you just listen to your body?" And she said, "Well, I'm not you, Tara. [laughs] I'm not a doctor. Like I can't, I can't do that." Um, I think it's important for people to know that intuition is often referred to as the sixth sense, but the actual sixth sense that we have is called interoception-

  9. 1:05:54 – 1:12:20

    Swart's Morning Rituals and Cooking in a Calm State

    1. RC

      Are you open to sharing what you do on a daily basis to keep yourself in check with yourself?

    2. TS

      Um, so as soon as I wake up in the morning, before I, you know, start to have, start to think things like, oh, what's the time, and, you know, where, what do I have to do today, I immediately give gratitude for my pillowcase, my pillow, my mattress, my mattress topper, and my bedding. So I, so I'm, I'm intentionally pushing myself towards that ox- oxytocin state rather than the cortisol state, um, as soon as I- I'm aware that I've become awake. I then do deep breathing whilst I'm still in bed, and I really feel into, like, all the directions that I'm breathing in, and I just see, like, is there any tension somewhere or...

    3. RC

      So you're tuning into your body immediately.

    4. TS

      Immediately, yeah.

    5. RC

      You're not allowing yourself, I guess, often into the emails, the social media, the news where, you know, you suddenly You've lost touch with your body and you're right into your brain and your thoughts, right?

    6. TS

      Yeah. I mean, I, I don't have my phone in my bedroom, so I... And it's several floors down, so I... It, it's quite a while till I can get to my phone. Um, and yeah, I got a, I got an old-fashioned alarm clock 'cause I just didn't wanna, like, have to... You know, that's people's biggest excuse, isn't it? I use my phone as my alarm clock. [laughs] Um-

    7. RC

      So gratitude-

    8. TS

      Breathing

    9. RC

      ... breathing.

    10. TS

      Yeah.

    11. RC

      And then?

    12. TS

      Then I get up and I, I take my probiotic first thing, 'cause I have to give a 10-minute gap before I can eat or drink anything. Um, and then I will lo- look at my phone.

    13. RC

      But what, what I love about that is what you have just said you do, as a neuroscientist, former doctor, coach, right, with all your knowledge and experience of helping people, you have built into your life a practice, dare I say a ritual-

    14. TS

      Mm-hmm

    15. RC

      ... each morning-

    16. TS

      Mm-hmm

    17. RC

      ... whereby within minutes, it's not much, that gratitude is not much-

    18. TS

      Yeah

    19. RC

      ... that breathing is not much.

    20. TS

      Mm-hmm.

    21. RC

      And, you know, 10, 15 minutes later you're on your phone, right?

    22. TS

      Yeah.

    23. RC

      That's very achievable for people.

    24. TS

      Yeah. And, but I'll add that because I have that 10-minute gap until I can drink my cup of tea, that's why I look at my phone, [clears throat] 'cause I'm kind of waiting. But my... making my cup of tea, whether it's regular tea or matcha tea, whether I'm using mushroom powders or not, that is a ritual for me. That is like a sacred moment. Like, the phone has, is left behind, and I do that almost like a form of meditation.

    25. RC

      Why?

    26. TS

      Um, I like, I like rituals. Um-

    27. RC

      What is, what is a ritual?

    28. TS

      A ritual is something that you do intentionally, so it's not just a routine. It's something that you do regularly, but you do it very intentionally. And I actually stopped formally meditating when I realized that if you regularly meditate, then for 15 or 30 minutes in your day you are being mindful, and for 23 and a half hours you are not. So [laughs] I try to bring rituals into my life so that I've got... It's like a patchwork quilt. There's moments of mindfulness throughout my day, and that to me is one of them. And also, then when I drink the cup of tea, I savor it, like, so much.

    29. RC

      Mm.

    30. TS

      Like, so that... You know, that's, "Okay, I've looked at my phone for a few minutes, but I've got another pause there."

  10. 1:12:20 – 1:20:28

    Caffeine, Alcohol and Heart Rate Variability

    1. RC

      You mentioned as part of your morning ritual you go to a cup of tea.

    2. TS

      Mm.

    3. RC

      Now, I go to a cup of coffee.

    4. TS

      Mm-hmm.

    5. RC

      And in my book on stress, I referred to caffeine and alcohol-

    6. TS

      Mm-hmm

    7. RC

      ... as forms of liquid stress.

    8. TS

      Ooh, nice term.

    9. RC

      And so I'm interested. We, we spent a long time so far talking about stress, the brain, how it affects our physical health, our emotional wellbeing, all these kind of things. How do caffeine and alcohol affect these things?

    10. TS

      Yeah. So I did think about giving up that morning cup of tea, but in the end, I, the enjoyment of it for me was so great-

    11. RC

      Mm

    12. TS

      ... that I just thought, "That's not gonna benefit my life to give that one up." I only have one caffeinated drink a day, and I never have it after 10:00 AM. Um, so the reason for that is that the quarter life of caffeine is 12 hours. So 12 hours after you've had your last caffeinated drink, a quarter of it is still circulating in your blood-

    13. RC

      Mm

    14. TS

      ... and going to your brain and potentially disturbing your sleep. Now, the way that caffeine could contribute as liquid stress is that if you're already stressed and agitated-

    15. RC

      Mm

    16. TS

      ... what drives agitation is basically caffeine and sugar.

    17. RC

      Mm-hmm.

    18. TS

      So in that state, if you are using coffee to keep you going, or you're drinking a lot of coffee because you're not really eating properly and you're trying to fill yourself up, then you're also, like, cumulating the amount of caffeine that's in your system.

    19. RC

      Mm.

    20. TS

      That, you know, is not good, and I, I do see people who are stressed, like, drinking a lot of coffee, and I definitely advise them to cut it down, but, but mostly focus on the last time slot that you would have a caffeinated drink. Um, alcohol, so people will, you know, think that it relaxes you. They may even use it proactively to try to reduce stress. But actually it, um, you know, suppresses activity in your prefrontal cortex, so your ability to regulate, regulate your emotions-

    21. RC

      Mm

    22. TS

      ... actually becomes lower, and your decision-making ability, you know, is negatively affected by that. Alcohol is a neurotoxin, so it will actually be killing off brain cells. Um, and the other thing is that, you know, ob- obviously 'cause of COVI- COVID, we all know that we used alcohol gels to kill bacteria. So basically alcohol, like antibiotics and processed food, affects the good bacteria-

    23. RC

      Mm

    24. TS

      ... in your gut as well, and we've already talked about how that connects with, you know, your intuition, your decision-making, um, and the effect on sleep as well. So-

    25. RC

      Of course

    26. TS

      ... yeah.

    27. RC

      Yeah.

    28. TS

      Yeah. Although I have to say, from heart rate variability monitoring, I can tell you that not leaving a two-hour gap between finishing eating and going to bed is as disruptive for your sleep as drinking alcohol before you go to bed.

    29. RC

      Now, I know what heart rate variability is, f- but for someone who doesn't, please explain that first, and then let's elaborate on what you just said-

    30. TS

      Okay

  11. 1:20:28 – 1:29:14

    Neuroaesthetics and the Healing Power of Nature

    1. RC

      We touched on nature earlier. We haven't gone into depth on nature, and there's a term you texted me about yesterday, neuroaesthetics, which I thought,, "That is a wicked term." I haven't heard of it.

    2. TS

      Okay.

    3. RC

      So we've been talking a lot about stress, right? And the damaging effects of too much stress.

    4. TS

      Mm-hmm.

    5. RC

      One of the antidotes is nature, right?

    6. TS

      Mm. Um, so neuroaesthetics is basically the science of the impact of beauty on our brains, um, on our health, our mental health, and our longevity. And so within that... You're frowning. [laughs]

    7. RC

      No, I'm, I'm thinking. I'm taking it in, 'cause I love it, and I've never heard the term before. I absolutely love it.

    8. TS

      Yeah.

    9. RC

      The impacts of beauty.

    10. TS

      Yeah.

    11. RC

      I, I, I, I love it.

    12. TS

      So it incl- it basically says that create- making or beholding creative activities is good for your health. So that's art, dance, music. Um, and it's both doing a painting or going to an art gallery. It's both, you know, singing in the shower and going to see a musical. Um, and it's, you know, it's both dancing around your living room or going to the ballet. Um, and there are, you know, differential benefits of making and beholding. Uh, both are good for you, but y- you know, ideally you would do a bit of both. And so within that, you and I might have the same taste in art, but different taste in music, but nature is the palette that we have existed in since the beginning of time.

    13. RC

      Mm.

    14. TS

      And so we all feel a sense of beauty when we're in nature. And, you know, we know that when we're in nature, our blood pressure goes down, our heart rate goes down. There are certain trees that secrete, um, chemicals called phy- phytoncides that-

    15. RC

      Mm

    16. TS

      ... boost the natural killer cells in our immune system. So there's a lot of good stuff going on when we're in nature. Um, and yeah, that's, that's pretty much it. That, you know, basically thinking of nature as, like, a, a beautiful, you know, uh, scenario, and understanding that beauty and creative activities are so beneficial to us. And if you think about it, when we lived in the cave, we... You know, we lived with the seasons. We looked at the stars in the sky at night. We walked barefoot, like you-

    17. RC

      Mm

    18. TS

      ... you try to. Um, and we danced around the fire. We beat drums. We s- we chanted, and people... You know, okay, once it went dark, you, you know, there was not... It's not like you could be hunting or whatever, but it's... You know, people didn't... There was no excess time for luxurious activities. When you lived in the cave, it was all about survival. So we really believe that these sorts of activities are somehow crucial to our survival, whether it's the social connection or whether it is, like, the benefit on your cardiovascular system of-

    19. RC

      Yeah

    20. TS

      ... you know, lowering your blood pressure and heart rate.

    21. RC

      Yeah. It, it's such a... It's a beautiful idea. It's a reassuring idea. We all feel good when we're in the forest or in-

    22. TS

      Yeah

    23. RC

      ... nature.

    24. TS

      Yeah.

    25. RC

      Right? Generally speaking, it's, it's hardwired into us, isn't it?

    26. TS

      Yeah, yeah.

    27. RC

      For a number of reasons. I don't know if you've read the book by Dacher Keltner, Awe. He's a Berkeley professor.

    28. TS

      Mm-hmm.

    29. RC

      Um, he's been studying happiness for 20-plus years, and he released a book about a year ago. I think it was called Awe or The Science of Awe.

    30. TS

      Mm-hmm.

  12. 1:29:14 – 1:57:07

    Death, Consciousness and Spiritual Research

    1. RC

      I wanna talk about death, Tara. Um, I've watched quite a few of your interviews recently-

    2. TS

      Mm-hmm

    3. RC

      ... uh, online, and they've been truly, truly fascinating. And death is something I've seen you talk more and more about over the past, I'd say a year maybe. Why is that?

    4. TS

      Yeah, I would say a year or two. Because you know how at the beginning of the pandemic, I said to you, "I feel like this is potentially a mental health crisis"? What I came out of it feeling like was there were so many people that experienced loss, and I do mean, you know, loss through actual death of loved ones, but also a lot of relationships broke down. A lot of people, you know, really suffered during the pandemic, either because they were isolated or, you know, things in the way that they work changed, so that loss of sense of self. So I feel like there's a lot of suffering in the world at the moment, and I also feel like we are more lost and disconnected than I think we've ever been before.

    5. RC

      Mm-hmm.

    6. TS

      Um, and so as part of, you know, my personal spiritual practice, I made season two of my podcast more about ancient wisdom 'cause I wanted to learn about Sufism and, you know, South African traditional healers and, you know, Tibetan Buddhist beliefs-

    7. RC

      Oh, love it

    8. TS

      ... and things. Yeah, so, but as part of that, actually, our friend in LA, um, Drew, he suggested, um, a guest for my podcast who was a Austrian doctor called Alexander Bathiany, who works on terminal lucidity. And terminal lucidity is when people who have some kind of brain damage or reduced consciousness because they've had a stroke or they've got dementia suddenly become lucid, completely lucid. So people who've forgotten that they even had children suddenly remember the names of their children and tell them that they love them and have a conversation with them that was, like, completely normal until a few years ago. And that really got me thinking about whether it's possible that consciousness can exist outside of our physical body. Basically, is your spirit still around somewhere after you've physically died? And then there was this, um, documentary on Netflix, Surviving Death. So I kind of went down a rabbit hole. You know, I get into a topic, and then I really-

    9. RC

      Mm

    10. TS

      ... I get into it. But I felt very passionately that this could bring a lot of comfort to people. Um, and s- and something else, which I'll come onto. So, um, after I interviewed Alexander, I said to Drew this to- fascinating topic, and he gave me another guest who is a, a professor of psychiatry from the University of Virginia who works on near-death experiences. So these are people who, you know, their, their heart stopped, and the number of minutes that went by is enough that we would know the brain was starting to decay. Um, but they somehow returned to physical life and could ex- could ex- uh, describe the experience that they had had. He's also got a colleague that works on past life memories, but I've, I haven't been able to s- to speak to him. But he works with children who remember being somebody else before.

    11. RC

      Mm.

    12. TS

      And then, um, I spoke to a Tibetan doctor who does dark retreats, which is the closest experience to a near-death experience that you can have without actually nearly dying. Um, so you're in complete darkness for seven days and seven nights, and actually, the, the monks do it for 49 days.

    13. RC

      Oh, wow.

    14. TS

      Yeah. Um, so that led me, uh, the re- what it's led me into thinking is, you know, you said to me that you're very interested in intuition at the moment. I've been interested in intuition for a long time. But all of this, you know, potential research that can't prove anything but points to the fact that the mind and the brain could be separated makes me ... I mean, the way that Dr. Grayson put it is that the brain is essentially filtering down the mind because the mind is capable of so much. But to survive in this material world, we can't be overwhelmed like that, so the brain actually makes our mind fit for purpose for this material world. So if you think about the fact that bats and dolphins can see and hear things that we can't see, that means a biological model has a range in their consciousness that's outside of our range.

    15. RC

      Mm.

    16. TS

      So if we believe that it's true that the mind is being filtered down by the brain, is it possible for our- us to expand our consciousness in this life, in this lifetime, in this world? Um, and y- you know, he said that, again, bringing, bringing us back to the ancient wisdom, that the Greeks and the Egyptians, they had people that discovered that, and they, they were the seers. You know, they were the people that predicted the future or, um, you know, knew if someone was going to die or become unwell. So I'm just very fascinated by this fact that I didn't think that the ancient wisdom and all of the kind of death stuff would be, you know, potentially connected. But, you know, I am, I am tempted to look into things like telepathy and extrasensory perception and, um, f- you know, from a neuroscience point of view, always with that, that lens of trying to explain it to people in a way that might help them and, you know, n- not wanting to be too woo, woo. Really wanting to see if I can create that same balance that I did with The Source.

    17. RC

      Yeah. I mean, that was a great book, a- and you did such a wonderful job, as you say, at creating that balance. There was a scientific rigor there-

    18. TS

      Mm-hmm

    19. RC

      ... as well.

    20. TS

      Mm-hmm.

    21. RC

      You know, which is very important, I think, for many people.

    22. TS

      Mm.

    23. RC

      Do you know Anil Seth? He's a bona fide neuroscientist.

    24. TS

      Yeah.

    25. RC

      He spent decades studying consciousness.

    26. TS

      Mm.

    27. RC

      And when he came on my podcast last year, we spoke about near-death experiences.

    28. TS

      Oh, okay.

    29. RC

      Just, we touched on it and, you know, 'cause you can't ignore the reports. There's plenty.

    30. TS

      Yeah. There's, there's thousands of them.

  13. 1:57:07 – 2:05:06

    Why Change Fails: Micro Habits and Self-Compassion

    1. RC

      To finish off, though, I wanna talk about why people struggle to make changes in their life.

    2. TS

      Mm-hmm.

    3. RC

      Let's take New Year's resolutions as an example.

    4. TS

      Yeah.

    5. RC

      They are notoriously unsuccessful.

    6. TS

      Yeah.

    7. RC

      Right? What is it? Is it 80% of people who s- who make them, by the first week in February are no longer doing them?

    8. TS

      Yeah.

    9. RC

      Something like that.

    10. TS

      Yeah, yeah.

    11. RC

      Right? In your opinion, what is the biggest obstacle in people's lives that stops them from moving forward?

    12. TS

      Um, that the goal that they've set is too big, and so it's not achievable. So it's not so much to do with the sustainability of it, it's the fact that it's too big in the first place, and therefore, the effort that is required for that big a change is, is so much effort that you're more likely to give up quickly. So the year that was a game changer for me was the year that I decided to add in two or three micro habits per quarter. So I started the year and I identified three things that I was going to do, and also knowing that some quarters, one of those was just gonna fall by the wayside and not actually get incorporated. But what it meant was, 'cause they were such easy things, that by the end of, you know, by the end of March I was like, "Okay, uh, like, what else can I do?" So another three. Um, and it meant that by the end of the year, I looked back and I had 10 things that I was now doing without question that had not been habits the year before. But, you know, when I've set something bigger than that, I don't come to the end of the year and say, "Oh, I've, you know, achieved that New Year's resolution."

    13. RC

      So on a, on a kind of rational, conscious mind, practical, through that kind of lens, that is very consistent with what I've found in clinical practice. That's very consistent with, let's say, Professor BJ Fogg's research on behavior change-

    14. TS

      Mm-hmm

    15. RC

      ... from Stanford. This idea that it's tiny habits, it's small changes-

    16. TS

      Mm

    17. RC

      ... that actually are the ones that we manage to introduce into our life and make sustainable.

    18. TS

      Yeah.

    19. RC

      Yeah? There's also the subconscious patterning within us though as well.

    20. TS

      Mm-hmm.

    21. RC

      I believe, and this was definitely true for me, that the reason why a lot of behavior change fails, I completely agree about the small habits, but I think one of the reasons, for example, why New Year's resolutions fail is because I think they come from an energy of lack-

    22. TS

      Mm-hmm

    23. RC

      ... rather than an energy of abundance.

    24. TS

      Mm.

    25. RC

      Right? So what can I do to punish myself? I'm not good enough at the moment. There's... You know, my life isn't going the way. I need to make this big. Yes.

    26. TS

      Yeah.

    27. RC

      But also, I'm not doing it because I like who I am and I like the person that I am-

    28. TS

      Yeah

    29. RC

      ... being in the world.

    30. TS

      Yeah.

Episode duration: 2:05:07

In the uListen app, the transcript lights up word by word as you listen. Get uListen

Transcript of episode Q3LAqTqqrMA

Get more out of YouTube videos.

Read along on your phone, search it beside the video, or ask your favorite AI app what was said.

iOSAndroidClaudeChatGPTChrome