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Dr Rangan ChatterjeeDr Rangan Chatterjee

50 Days Alone In Antarctica: "How Solitude Revealed Life’s True Meaning & Purpose" | Erling Kagge

AG1 is sponsoring today's show. To get 1 year's FREE VITAMIN D and 5 FREE TRAVEL PACKS visit: https://bit.ly/43FwxQl Book Download my FREE Habit Change Guide HERE: https://bit.ly/3VCaV34 Order MAKE CHANGE THAT LASTS. US & Canada version https://amzn.to/3RyO3SL UK version https://amzn.to/3Kt5rUK This week, I'm joined by the remarkable Erling Kagge, Norwegian adventurer, philosopher and acclaimed writer. Erling is the first person to complete the "Three Poles Challenge" - reaching the North Pole, the South Pole, and the summit of Mount Everest on foot. After this record-breaking feat, Erling attended Cambridge University to study philosophy. He’s also the author of multiple best-selling books, including, Silence: In the Age of Noise and Walking: One Step at a Time. When Erling was 29, he did something most of us can't imagine - he walked alone to the South Pole for 50 days in complete silence, with no radio contact whatsoever. What started as a physical journey across ice became something far more profound - a journey into himself. In our conversation, we explore • Why Erling believes silence is where "the world's secrets are hidden" and how finding quiet moments can help us get to know ourselves better - and appreciate others more • Erling’s surprising relationship with fear and how being "one with the environment" creates an unexpected sense of peace even in extreme danger - like facing a charging polar bear! • The three simple origins of true gratefulness that Erling found during his expeditions: feeling warm after being cold, feeling full after being hungry and resting after exhaustion – experiences most of us rarely have in our comfortable modern lives • How our experience of boredom has completely changed – from being bored because nothing is happening to feeling bored because too many things are happening at once • Why Erling believes we should actually "make our lives more difficult" on purpose and how this approach helps us find meaning and satisfaction • Practical ideas for bringing moments of silence into our busy lives – whether it's walking without your phone, taking the stairs instead of the lift, or just standing still for a few minutes As Erling reminds us, most of us don't realise what we're truly capable of. His encouragement to break free from limiting beliefs, to move our bodies more, and to add variety to our routines offers a practical path toward a more meaningful life. In his words, finding fulfilment is about "finding your own North Pole" – a journey that asks us to be brave enough to face ourselves in silence. I hope you enjoy listening. #feelbetterlivemore ----- Erling’s books: The North Pole: The History of an Obsession UK https://amzn.to/3EutZxz US https://amzn.to/3EMlbD7 Silence: In the Age of Noise UK https://amzn.to/4cWYWHi US https://amzn.to/3RBRc3J The Philosophy of an Explorer: 16 Life-lessons from Surviving the Extreme UK https://amzn.to/42zD7dq US https://amzn.to/3RClljt Walking: One Step at a Time UK https://amzn.to/42QOEnv US https://amzn.to/4jTFKfQ Philosophy for Polar Explorers: An Adventurer’s Guide to Surviving Winter UK https://amzn.to/44NiDzc #feelbetterlivemore #feelbetterlivemorepodcast ------- Order MAKE CHANGE THAT LASTS. US & Canada version https://amzn.to/3RyO3SL, UK version https://amzn.to/3Kt5rUK ----- Follow Dr Chatterjee at: Website: https://drchatterjee.com/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/drchatterjee Twitter: https://twitter.com/drchatterjeeuk Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/drchatterjee/ Newsletter: https://drchatterjee.com/subscription DISCLAIMER: The content in the podcast and on this webpage is not intended to constitute or be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Never disregard professional medical advice or delay in seeking it because of something you have heard on the podcast or on my website.

Dr. Rangan ChatterjeehostErling Kaggeguest
Apr 30, 20251h 51mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 2:33

    Noise vs. inner silence: why distraction keeps us from ourselves

    1. RC

      You have said that silence is where the world's secrets are hidden. So how can someone who's just stumbled across this conversation, who is constantly surrounded by noise, start to cultivate that inner silence, and what are the benefits of them doing so?

    2. EK

      Uh, um, the benefits are so many, but one of course is to get to know yourself, uh, better and to be, um, satisfied in your own company. And I think one of the ways to, uh, discover a silence is, this inner silence, is to be aware that noise, and not only sounds, but also distractions from your phone or distractions for whatever in your life, could also be a light, it could be sounds, it could be smells, it could be of course your telephone buzzing, et cetera, et cetera. All this noise is about other people. All this noise is about running away from yourself, running away from who you are, forgetting yourself, living through other people, other devices, while silence, inner silence, is about you. It's about who you are. And if you're going to be able to live a rich life, a fairly happy life, you get to know yourself.

    3. RC

      Yeah.

    4. EK

      And of course, the easiest solution in life is to go for noise and relate to noise, and the more difficult option is to listen to yourself, listen to your own inner silence. And that's of course why people quite often choose noise.

    5. RC

      Now, when I hear you talk about silence and the benefits of silence, I think it has an extra resonance for me because you are this world-famous explorer, okay? You've been to the top of Mount Everest, you've been to the North Pole, you've been to the South Pole, and I wanna talk about a lot of these adventures and what you learnt about the world, about time, about yourself through those explorations and those expeditions. But relating this to silence, when you went to the South Pole, my understanding is that you did that with no radio, with no one surrounding you, so you had an entire 50 days in silence. First of all, is that correct?

    6. EK

      [laughs] That's very correct.

  2. 2:33 – 4:52

    50 days alone to the South Pole: the first shock, then deep adaptation

    1. RC

      And if it is, can you paint a picture for us? What is that like? Because I think today some people struggle to get even five minutes of silence, yet you had 50 full days.

    2. EK

      [laughs] It was a superb experience because, um, for the first couple days you get restless. Uh, you're missing the noise, you're missing people. Uh, you're a bit worried because it's, um, 1,300 kilometers to go, uh, just by yourself. And, um, uh, but then you calm down and you adapt to the circumstances. You're starting to look into nature. You're starting to listen to yourself and fairly soon you don't miss other people's company that much. Kind of the only thing I missed walking to the South Pole was skin contact with kind of hugging another person and, um, I think that was about it. And, uh, for me, of course, it was a journey and expedition towards the South Pole, but it ended up being a more important journey into myself, into my own soul, and I learned a great lesson on silence. And, um, but then later in life I got three daughters and eventually they became teenage daughters and my life was very much about noise. And [laughs] I understood my kids, they didn't really know what silence is and they said silence is nothing. Like also most philosophers say that silence is nothing and nothing comes from nothing. And then I understood I have to sit down and write a book about silence, what silence is, where it is, and why it's important. And it was my expedition to the South Pole who really taught me the importance of silence and being able to be silent and to be... Silence is not about turning your back to the world. It's not about living a more egocentric life. It's about the opposite. It's about seeing the Earth from a different perspective. It's about respecting other people, uh, to a greater degree. It's about appreciating yourself and your own company more, and it's about loving life even more.

  3. 4:52 – 6:22

    Silence that opens you to the world: solitude as social strength

    1. RC

      It's interesting that you went on this individual journey, yet you're saying that the silence that you managed to experience and I guess cultivate within yourself through that journey has helped you appreciate the world around you more. It's helped you appreciate other people more.

    2. EK

      Exactly.

    3. RC

      And I wanna ask you then, is there a contradiction in some ways where we say that humans are social beings, right? You know, there's parts of our physiology and our brains that are, we think, about connecting with others.

    4. EK

      Mm-hmm.

    5. RC

      Yet at the same time, you said something really, really fascinating for me that when you are... or when you were going to the South Pole, after a few days you, you, you didn't want other people around you. I- is that a contradiction?

    6. EK

      No, it's not a contradiction I think because I think, you know, a good start to be able to appreciate other people and also respect other people is to be content with yourself and be able to be, uh, enjoying your own company and, uh, I, I think that's one of the reasons why you have so much-unhappiness in society because people have, you know, to a great degree forgotten themselves and forgotten how to be in their own company and always living through other people, always living through other devices. And then it's, I-- in my experience, it's getting difficult to appreciate other people in that way.

  4. 6:22 – 7:56

    Pre-internet wasn’t truly quiet: smartphones, entertainment, and “existential boredom”

    1. RC

      Hmm. How old were you when you went to the South Pole?

    2. EK

      Oh, 29. Uh [laughs] .

    3. RC

      What year was that?

    4. EK

      '92, '93. Yeah. Mm.

    5. RC

      Okay. A different world back then.

    6. EK

      Yeah.

    7. RC

      Pre-internet.

    8. EK

      Yeah.

    9. RC

      Pre-smartphone.

    10. EK

      Yeah.

    11. RC

      Pre-social media.

    12. EK

      Yeah.

    13. RC

      It's easy for someone like me, or frankly anyone these days, to look back on the '90s or the '80s with rose-tinted glasses-

    14. EK

      Yeah

    15. RC

      ... and go, "Oh, you know, we all had solitude then."

    16. EK

      [laughs]

    17. RC

      "We all had silence back then." But that's not true, is it?

    18. EK

      No, no, no, no, no. I think those years were, uh, quite similar to the lives we're living now.

    19. RC

      Really?

    20. EK

      Yeah, I think so in many ways. Um, but one huge difference, of course, um, is the smartphone, that we are available at all times, and we want to be available at all times, and this whole idea about being entertained all the time has been growing, and also that we're being bored in a different way today. Like, um, when I grew up, we were bored because nothing was happening. And I remember my mother said to me, "Erling, it's healthy to be bored every now and then," and I thought almost she was joking. Today, I understand she was right, and today people are bored because too many things are happening, too many alternatives, and there's always some action on your screen. Um, so then they have kind of a different existential boredom. But I think, you know, it's kind of-

    21. RC

      Mm-hmm

    22. EK

      ... the same kind of feeling, but you're still very-- people are really bored, I think.

  5. 7:56 – 11:03

    Choosing solitude on purpose: the radio batteries in the bin

    1. RC

      When you went to the South Pole, was there an option of having a radio?

    2. EK

      Yes, it was an option. I was actually [laughs] forced to bring a radio, uh, by the airplan- airplane company who flew me out to the northern edge of Antarctica.

    3. RC

      For, for safety.

    4. EK

      For safety, yeah. So, but my goal was to be the first to walk alone to the South Pole, and I also wanted to do it in solitude. So I threw away the batteries of the radio in the garbage bin of the plane. [laughs]

    5. RC

      Oh.

    6. EK

      So [laughs]

    7. RC

      Hold on one minute. So you took the radio-

    8. EK

      Yeah

    9. RC

      ... to comply with legal.

    10. EK

      Yeah.

    11. RC

      And then you thought, "Screw it."

    12. EK

      Because, you know, you n- need to choose your battles, and I couldn't take that battle with the airplane company because they, you know, "We're not going to fly you unless you bring a radio." So I took the radio, emptied the bat- with the batteries, and when I was standing on the ice, seeing the plane taking off, and, uh, it was between 1,300 and 40 kilomet- 1,400 kilometers to the South Pole. I was totally by myself. I had a kind of a beeper who could send messages out, not receiving anything if it was emergency, but of course, if you fall into a crevasse, no one's going to hear that signal. So I was, you know, pretty much by myself, and that was, that was the goal, to be by myself for 50 or 60 or 65 days. But you know, it's a, it's a kind of a-- it's kind of the Norwegian dream to be able to ski all day, sleep well at night, and ski the next day again. But also what I experienced is this silence, um, and you move, you're being moved. It's a, it's in our language. You have motion, emotion. So it was, in that respect, it was kind of one long kind of meditation. Like, you kind of get self-hypnotized because life becomes so simple.

    13. RC

      Yeah.

    14. EK

      You get up in the morning at the same time. You do things, two things at the same time, cook breakfast, uh, maintain ge- maintain your gear, repair your gear, prepare lunch. Then you take down your tent. To get going, you have fixed routines of when to have breaks. Eat the same food every day. Um, it doesn't, doesn't taste that well when you start on the expedition, but after you're getting more and more exhausted, it tasted better and better and better. And you go to sleep the same time every evening. So in that respect, it's kind of also very comfortable life.

    15. RC

      Yeah.

    16. EK

      And you live in the present, that you tend to forget the past. You tend to stop thinking about the future because all those thoughts are also noise in your life, that you're thinking too much. But someday you gradually or gradually you g- become present in your own life.

    17. RC

      Yeah. You know, when I was rereading Silence, um, one of your earlier books which came out a few years ago now-

    18. EK

      Mm-hmm

    19. RC

      ... it really struck me that... or certainly came to me, something I've been saying for, for many years now is I think for most people, I can't say for everyone because we're all different. We all live different lives.

    20. EK

      We ca-

    21. RC

      Okay

    22. EK

      ... we can never say for everyone. [laughs]

  6. 11:03 – 13:26

    “I don’t have time” for solitude: why small doses still matter

    1. RC

      Exactly. But I would imagine for most people that the single most important daily practice they can do in the modern world in 2025 is having a daily practice of solitude.

    2. EK

      Yeah.

    3. RC

      I really believe that more than-

    4. EK

      Yeah

    5. RC

      ... more than I ever have done. But I imagine that when people hear that, one of the things they're gonna say is, "I don't have time for that."

    6. EK

      Hmm.

    7. RC

      Right?

    8. EK

      That's usual comment.

    9. RC

      Okay.

    10. EK

      Mm.

    11. RC

      What's your take on that?

    12. EK

      I think in general, people are underestimating themselves. I have traveled to more than 100 countries, talked to thousands of people, and in general, people are underestimating the possibilities they have in life. And, and, uh, you know, 10 minutes of solitude, uh, is, uh, better than no solitude. And, uh, I also think I have to respect that, you know, some phases of life, um, with small kids, et cetera, it's more difficult. But in general, um, I think people are wrong when they say they're not having time for such.

    13. RC

      Hmm.

    14. EK

      And I think, you know, what is said is s- so true, that solitude, of course, it's kind of... it can be something negative, just like with silence it could be something negative of course. Uh, one minute of silence, silence in the church, in a funeral, silence when you're sitting, when you are heartbroken. Uh, it could be negative, but it's also very enriching. And, and solitude is, is certainly needed and, and people today, uh, they have too much noise and just too little solitude. Yeah.

    15. RC

      Yeah. What's interesting is when you were describing the start of that South Pole journey-

    16. EK

      Mm

    17. RC

      ... to me, you said for the first two days you were a bit restless.

    18. EK

      Yeah.

    19. RC

      Right? And I think this is a really key point for us to just emphasize here, right? This idea that if you're used to constant stimulation and noise, if that's your norm, you know, 10 minutes of silence may well feel quite threatening.

    20. EK

      Mm.

    21. RC

      Right? If you-

    22. EK

      Mm

    23. RC

      ... came from the city, you got the plane out to the South Pole, and you're about to embark on this journey, for the first two days, you almost need to let the thoughts burn themselves out, right?

    24. EK

      Yeah. Mm.

    25. RC

      So that you can access the silence that's actually there within us.

    26. EK

      Yeah.

  7. 13:26 – 18:00

    Digital withdrawal is real: kids, smartphones, and the need for nature

    1. RC

      Right? Back in October of last year, so 2024-

    2. EK

      Mm

    3. RC

      ... I was involved with a Channel 4 documentary, um, about smartphones and children.

    4. EK

      Mm.

    5. RC

      And we went to a school and we did this experiment. So for 21 days, year eight, so this is kids who are about 12 years old or so-

    6. EK

      Mm

    7. RC

      ... gave up all technology, smartphones, gaming devices, uh, and their laptops, right?

    8. EK

      Mm.

    9. RC

      And we were measuring with the University of York what happened.

    10. EK

      Mm.

    11. RC

      And what you said in this sort of macro view of going to the South Pole happened in the micro when we went to the school, right?

    12. EK

      Yeah.

    13. RC

      The first two to three days, it was like they were withdrawing from a drug.

    14. EK

      Mm.

    15. RC

      Really restless. They were kind of missing it.

    16. EK

      Of course.

    17. RC

      Like, "What am I gonna do?"

    18. EK

      Of course. Yeah.

    19. RC

      Right? Just reminded me-

    20. EK

      Mm

    21. RC

      ... when I've had patients before, you know, coming off sugar-

    22. EK

      Yeah

    23. RC

      ... or alcohol, whatever it might be.

    24. EK

      Mm-hmm.

    25. RC

      I was like, "Wow, this is really interesting."

    26. EK

      Mm.

    27. RC

      And then they all pretty much dropped in to this greater feeling of calm.

    28. EK

      Oh.

    29. RC

      Right? And we studied this-

    30. EK

      Mm

  8. 18:00 – 21:48

    Meaning through difficulty: boredom, silence, and the modern “meaning crisis”

    1. RC

      And one of the things that you write about that comes across is this idea that silence is not emptiness, but it's a gateway to self-discovery.

    2. EK

      Yeah.And, you know, the most, most important discovery in the world is to, you know, discover who you are. And, and we have this tendency in life to always choose the easiest option, which I've, you know, um, which I think is a huge mistake. I think we actively need to make our lives, lives more difficult than they have to be. Um, it's not for everyone, but let's say most people, they should actively make their life a little bit more difficult.

    3. RC

      Yeah.

    4. EK

      That's the only way to find meaning in life, to make it more difficult.

    5. RC

      In my last book, I put forward this hypothesis that I've had for a number of years about certain patients that I'd seen.

    6. EK

      Mm-hmm.

    7. RC

      Okay? And it really relates to what you have just said, and I'd love to get your take on it. A lot of patients over the years I have seen have this almost low-grade anxiety.

    8. EK

      Mm-hmm.

    9. RC

      And I've had this strong feeling for a period of time that this comes from not regularly testing themselves. Okay? So I believe on a core, deep level, we all know that life could get tough-

    10. EK

      Mm-hmm

    11. RC

      ... at some point, right?

    12. EK

      Life is, life is a struggle.

    13. RC

      Yeah.

    14. EK

      It has to be a struggle.

    15. RC

      Yeah.

    16. EK

      This whole idea that to have as little resistance as possible in life, it's just a huge misunderstanding.

    17. RC

      Yeah. But here's the thing, and I think this relates to your point, right, that if you are not regularly doing things that test you-

    18. EK

      Mm-hmm

    19. RC

      ... that are a bit uncomfortable-

    20. EK

      Mm-hmm

    21. RC

      ... you actually become weak.

    22. EK

      Yeah.

    23. RC

      Physically weak, yes-

    24. EK

      Mm-hmm

    25. RC

      ... but also mentally weak, right?

    26. EK

      Yeah.

    27. RC

      And I, I don't say that in a judgmental way-

    28. EK

      No

    29. RC

      ... just to be clear. I'm just saying that you have this kind of fragile sense of who you are. You know that if life was to get tough, which it could do-

    30. EK

      Mm-hmm

  9. 21:48 – 24:03

    Practical stillness: walking as meditation and 20-minute self-hypnosis

    1. RC

      Yeah. Do you meditate?

    2. EK

      Uh, I meditate in the sense that I do a lot of walking. Uh, I love walking. Um, and for me, that's a kind of meditation. With a walk, without holding your phone in your hand and, uh, for 10 minutes or for two hours or for more, for me, that's, that's meditation. And, um, in addition, I do self-hypnosis. So I try to self-hypnotize myself every late afternoon because then quite often a little bit tired from a long day, and, uh, then I get into my subconsciousness for 20 minutes, and, uh, I feel totally refreshed the rest of the evening. Yeah.

    3. RC

      So you do self-hypnosis-

    4. EK

      Yeah

    5. RC

      ... in the afternoons?

    6. EK

      Yeah.

    7. RC

      Is that something you had to learn?

    8. EK

      It's something you can learn, but it's [laughs] it's very easy to learn. It's, uh, it's, um, a friend of mine, I met her in the UK in '95 when I was reading philosophy. He said to me, "Erling, you have been self-hypnotized yourself throughout your life on expeditions, et cetera, and without knowing it. So you should learn the technique to get to know yourself better." So he taught me in one day, which I think, you know, everyone can learn, uh, how to hypnotize myself.

    9. RC

      And you said you have energy afterwards.

    10. EK

      Yeah.

    11. RC

      What are some of the other benefits you get from self-hypnosis?

    12. EK

      Certainly energy. Um, uh, you s- I still need to sleep the same amount of hours, but energy. And also, I believe I'm kind of manipulating my sub- subconsciousness a little bit, but of course, the subconsciousness is either with you or against you. So, um, I think, you know, it's getting on my side, and sometimes I'm hypnotized just go into this silence and, uh, everything's disappearing. And other occasions, I try to follow an idea into subconsciousness and chase that idea while I'm subconscious.

    13. RC

      Yeah. Wow. I hadn't thought about self-hypnosis.

    14. EK

      But it's, you know, it's only 20 minutes. And, uh, for me, it's like, you know, it's not super important, but it's, it is important and it makes my life more, more comfortable.

  10. 24:03 – 30:30

    Time is not clock time: how walking expands time and life feels longer

    1. RC

      Yeah. Let's talk about time.

    2. EK

      Mm-hmm.

    3. RC

      Right? Because whether it's in what you just said or some of the powerful ideas I've been reading about in your, in your book, The North Pole, right?I've been thinking a lot about time-

    4. EK

      Mm-hmm

    5. RC

      ... and how clock time-

    6. EK

      Yeah

    7. RC

      ... I point-- Uh, I don't have a watch on, right? I don't wear a watch for that reason.

    8. EK

      I th- I think that's, you know, a good idea.

    9. RC

      I, I... It's funny, I used to be obsessed with watches as a kid. I'd always wanna know the time.

    10. EK

      Mm-hmm.

    11. RC

      And about, I don't know, four or five years ago-

    12. EK

      Mm-hmm

    13. RC

      ... I thought, "I'm not interested."

    14. EK

      I will, I will think about that, actually. Yeah.

    15. RC

      Because wearing a watch-- And I guess if you have a smartphone, then you're gonna constantly see the time on that thing anyway.

    16. EK

      Mm-hmm.

    17. RC

      S- so that's one reason why I guess people don't need to wear watches in the way that they may have done in the past.

    18. EK

      Mm-hmm.

    19. RC

      And I also accept that you may have a certain job where you need to look at the time and be-

    20. EK

      Yeah. Mm-hmm

    21. RC

      ... on that clock time regularly.

    22. EK

      Mm-hmm.

    23. RC

      But time really is a human construct.

    24. EK

      Totally. Mm-hmm.

    25. RC

      Right? You-- And you think that, oh, that time has moved on in a linear fashion.

    26. EK

      Yeah.

    27. RC

      But that doesn't account for your experience of time, right?

    28. EK

      Mm-hmm.

    29. RC

      One hour with your best friend, uh, having a deep conversation is still one hour of clock time.

    30. EK

      Mm-hmm.

  11. 30:30 – 31:31

    Sponsor break (AG1)

    1. RC

      Yeah. Just taking a quick break to give a shout-out to AG1. Now, AG1 is a science-based foundational nutrition supplement that contains 75 whole food sourced nutrients. It contains vitamin C and zinc, which helps support a healthy immune system, and also prebiotics and digestive enzymes, which helps support your gut's health. And one of the best things about AG1 is that all this goodness comes in one convenient daily serving that makes it really easy to fit into your life, no matter how busy you feel, and it's also really, really tasty. What makes AG1 really special is the team of scientists behind it. I speak to them regularly, and I'm really impressed by their commitment to making a high quality product. If you want to try AG1, they are giving my audience a really special offer. One year supply of vitamin D, which is really good for your immune system, and five

  12. 31:31 – 36:11

    Seeing cities in slow motion: walking across LA and beneath New York

    1. RC

      free travel packs with your first order. You can see all details at drinkag1.com/livemore or just click on the link below. Now, back to the conversation. This idea of time is interesting and how walking changes our perception of time. I heard you say something yesterday in an interview which really got me to pause and think. Last time you were in LA or something-

    2. EK

      Mm

    3. RC

      ... one of the times you were in Los Angeles-

    4. EK

      Mm

    5. RC

      ... you walked.

    6. EK

      Yeah. [laughs]

    7. RC

      Right? But you walked a long distance.

    8. EK

      Yeah.

    9. RC

      Now, for people who've never been to LA, I was there a few months ago-

    10. EK

      Mm

    11. RC

      ... doing all my book promo.

    12. EK

      Mm.

    13. RC

      Right? It's a very large city. It's not easy to walk. Most people don't walk. It's a very car driven city.

    14. EK

      Mm.

    15. RC

      So can you just share your experience because it, it, it was really quite fascinating for me to hear this.

    16. EK

      Yeah. Together with two friends, Norwegian friends, uh, Petter Skavlan and Peder Lund, we have this project about walking through cities and, uh, we decided to walk from Eastern LA, uh, kinda gang land, Cesar Chavez Avenue, way east. Walked on Cesar Chavez into Sunset Boulevard and walk all the way Sunset to the ocean. And-

    17. RC

      Can you give us an idea of what that sort of distance is?

    18. EK

      Uh, it's only like 45, 50 kilometers maybe.

    19. RC

      Okay, hold on a minute. I just love the fact that you go, "It's only 50 kilometers," right?

    20. EK

      [laughs]

    21. RC

      'Cause in your perception, having been to the extremes of the world, it's different from most people's.

    22. EK

      Yeah.

    23. RC

      But okay.

    24. EK

      But we spent, we spent three or four days, so it's like, you know, it's... so, uh, it was physically is easy. Um, but what was interesting that you see LA is we're kind of seeing everything everyone else is seeing, but you're seeing from a different angle because you see it from the curb of the road, and we see it in slow motion because al- almost everyone is driving and everyone is kind of looking, you know, into the next car in the queue all the time. But when you're slowly walking through the city, you see, yeah, everything, you know, in a different way. And our idea was to not leave those two avenues, stick to the avenues, and do whatever we could on, you know, on the trek. So we went to the Church of Scientology at, at, at, uh, at the beginning of Sunset Boulevard. We, um, ha- applied for membership. We had, uh, 45 minutes interviews each. Uh, we had 45 minutes introduction course to Scientology just for fun. [laughs] And, uh-

    25. RC

      Just for something to do

    26. EK

      ... just so you know, just we did whatever we could do, um, uh, by following those two streets. And way east in LA, uh, you know, we were stopped by the police, uh, not because we looked like we're going to commit, um, any crime, but because, uh, they were just suspicious that, you know, three guys were walking with a tiny backpack each through that part of the city.

    27. RC

      So hold on. You got stopped by police because walking is so rare in LA-

    28. EK

      Yeah, yeah

    29. RC

      ... that they thought, "This is weird."

    30. EK

      Yeah.

  13. 36:11 – 49:56

    Simplicity, hunger, and gratitude: why the whiskey stayed sealed

    1. RC

      Yeah. I wanna move on to your North Pole expedition in just a moment, but there's two things about what you've said so far about when you walked to the South Pole that I can't get out of my head, okay? The first thing, this idea that life was actually, um-In some ways, quite monotonous when you were walking to the South Pole.

    2. EK

      Yeah.

    3. RC

      But it didn't matter. You shared with me that you actually had some whiskey bottles with you.

    4. EK

      Yeah.

    5. RC

      But you never actually touched them.

    6. EK

      No.

    7. RC

      Can you explain that? Because, uh, I think it relates to what you said before about this boredom, right? So you were saying when you were a kid, you were bored because there was nothing to do. Now people have got this kind of existential boredom because we're just l- having this kind of low-grade stimulation-

    8. EK

      Yeah

    9. RC

      ... all the time on our screens.

    10. EK

      Mm-hmm.

    11. RC

      And we don't realize, we think it's nourishing us, but on a deep level, it's actually starving us.

    12. EK

      Yeah.

    13. RC

      Right?

    14. EK

      Starving us for meaning.

    15. RC

      Starving us for meaning.

    16. EK

      Yeah. It's brutal. I mean, if you starve something from meanings or meanings in life, not the meaning of life, but you're starving them for meanings in life, that's super brutal.

    17. RC

      But we are in a meaning crisis at the moment.

    18. EK

      Ab- absolutely. And, you know, it's increasing meaning crisis.

    19. RC

      But I think the only way you get to meaning is through solitude.

    20. EK

      I think that's a very good observation.

    21. RC

      You have to have it.

    22. EK

      It's brutal, but it's true.

    23. RC

      Yeah. And I worry about kids these days who are being conditioned from a young age to not have any time alone with their thoughts. I purposefully fight in my house to keep it a low-tech house.

    24. EK

      Yeah.

    25. RC

      I don't want high tech in the house. I, I say to my wife, "I want it to be an analog house." As little digital as possible to-

    26. EK

      Right

    27. RC

      ... because I think that's who we are. We're analog beings trying to live unsuccessfully in an increasingly digital world.

    28. EK

      I think it's a very good idea. I think as a father, uh, of course, I've done many mistakes, but maybe the biggest mistake I did as a father was not to enforce the kids to leave the telephones in the kitchen before they went to bed, or like, you know, one hour before they went to bed.

    29. RC

      Yeah.

    30. EK

      That's like, you know, that was just stupid. But, but, you know, they're doing really well now. They're all in their 20s, so I mean, it's not a catastrophe, but it's like, you know-

  14. 49:56 – 56:10

    Returning from extreme solitude: the first conversation and civilization shock

    1. RC

      The, the other thing I wanted to ask about the South Pole in particular, after 50 days of complete silence, you mentioned it took a couple of days-

    2. EK

      Mm

    3. RC

      ... to get in, but once you were in, you didn't wanna talk to anyone.

    4. EK

      Mm.

    5. RC

      Do you remember the first conversation you had with another human once you'd finished?

    6. EK

      [laughs]

    7. RC

      And what was that like?

    8. EK

      I remember it really well actually, because unfortunately, I wrote it down because, you know, memory is a tricky thing. Um, so I, I got to the South Pole. The Americans had built a base at the South Pole. Um, and of course, no one expected me.

    9. RC

      Why not?

    10. EK

      Because, you know, they knew I was walking towards the Nor- the Pole, but, uh, uh, they didn't know where I was, so what kind of progress I had and, uh, and... or if I was going to make it. So I walked in, I saw the base at a distance, walked towards the, you know, the point where it's just kind of marked, "This is the real South Pole." And some Americans came out to the base [laughs] and, and they, and they said, just like if I should have met them in Central Park, like, you know, "How are you?" And I said, "Like a pig in shit." [laughs]

    11. RC

      [laughs]

    12. EK

      And they were kind of... You know, they didn't even laugh. They just kind of, "Ugh, you know, what's this?" And of course, I had, had the same underwear on for 50 days and... 50 days and 50 nights without taking it off once. So I was like a pig in shit.

    13. RC

      That- those words from... You said there were some Americans there.

    14. EK

      Yeah.

    15. RC

      So it wasn't just one person, it was several people.

    16. EK

      Oh, it was a coup- couple of scientists or, you know, people walking, uh, working on the base coming out.

    17. RC

      Okay. So-

    18. EK

      Very nice people

    19. RC

      ... what I'm trying to, uh, really understand is when you've had all this silence and all you've heard is nature. Were there, were there animals-

    20. EK

      Mm. Mm

    21. RC

      ... around?

    22. EK

      No animals.

    23. RC

      No animals-

    24. EK

      No

    25. RC

      ... 'cause it's that cold.

    26. EK

      Yeah. It's... No, but also, like, uh, animals on the, uh, on the coast, but as soon as you're off the coast, there's no animals.

    27. RC

      Okay. So you... When, when we say you were alone-

    28. EK

      Mm

    29. RC

      ... you really were alone. [laughs]

    30. EK

      Yeah, yeah.

  15. 56:10 – 1:04:24

    Silent retreats and family life: ‘egocentric’ but not selfish

    1. RC

      Also, I'm fascinated by solitude and silence.

    2. EK

      Mm.

    3. RC

      And something I've always wanted to do is one of these one-week silent retreats.

    4. EK

      Yeah.

    5. RC

      You do these silent meditations where-

    6. EK

      Yeah

    7. RC

      ... you don't talk.

    8. EK

      Mm-hmm.

    9. RC

      Right? And then I tell you where my head goes. My head goes, "I've still got young kids. Should I do that? Like, can I... You know, is it selfish to do that and for my children to not see me or hear from me for seven days?" Now, I think you can argue this a whole variety of different ways, but I'd love your perspective on this. Is it selfish to go away and find yourself in silence when you've got dependents?

    10. EK

      Not at all. [laughs] It's egocentric for sure, uh, but not selfish. I find selfish to be a very negative, uh, word. It's, uh... But you know, for your kids and in this case your wife, maybe it's really good for them that you're away for a week. You know, they get a little bit rest from you. Maybe you can contribute a little bit before and after, and you will come back not as a different person, but a little bit different person.

    11. RC

      Mm.

    12. EK

      You'll probably come back as a nicer person, a more caring person, a little bit wiser person. Um, so I think it's a g- I think it's a good idea. Mm.

    13. RC

      You, you said it's egocentric, but is it egocentric, right? If, like, you know... You're making the case, right? So the, some of the ideas I've written down, right, um, that you've written about in all your books. "Silence is not emptiness but a gateway to self-discovery."

    14. EK

      Mm-hmm.

    15. RC

      "True adventure happens within. Solitude builds resilience and inner strength. Um, stillness and patience reveal what truly matters. Your best ideas emerge in solitude. The world disappears when you immerse yourself in the present." These are things that I've written down from your books, right?

    16. EK

      [laughs]

    17. RC

      So let's go back to this idea that it's egocentric.

    18. EK

      Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

    19. RC

      I want to challenge that and go-

    20. EK

      Mm

    21. RC

      ... well, hold on a minute. If going away for a week gives you all these things, if... You know, there's a phrase, isn't there, "Absence makes the heart grow fonder," right?

    22. EK

      Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

    23. RC

      Um, one of the things people struggle with in-

    24. EK

      It, it, it should grow fonder

    25. RC

      ... It should do. But one of the things people struggle with in the COVID lockdowns-

    26. EK

      Mm

    27. RC

      ... um, was that they were, they were with their partners all the time, right?

    28. EK

      Yeah. Yeah.

    29. RC

      There wasn't any absence there-

    30. EK

      Mm-hmm

  16. 1:04:24 – 1:17:49

    North Pole philosophy: ‘there is no there there’ and time as a construct

    1. RC

      Now, you've also said something in this conversation that I'm gonna challenge.

    2. EK

      Mm.

    3. RC

      Okay?

    4. EK

      That's good. [laughs]

    5. RC

      In a, in a, in a good way, right?

    6. EK

      Yeah. [laughs]

    7. RC

      You said, "You know, when we go to silence, you know, we learn things about ourself, but nothing that profound." And I thought, "Wait a minute."

    8. EK

      [laughs]

    9. RC

      Right? Wait a minute. You know, you're an explorer, but I would argue you're a deep thinker. You're a philosopher.

    10. EK

      Mm.

    11. RC

      Because the wisdom in these books is really quite profound. So you sent me your very latest book last week, right? Not only has it got this gorgeous cover-

    12. EK

      Mm

    13. RC

      ... that's you, isn't it?

    14. EK

      That's me taking a photo of my partner, Børge, walking towards the North Pole.

    15. RC

      Yeah. What's interesting, when you look at this cover-

    16. EK

      Mm

    17. RC

      ... it looks... For me, I thought, "Oh, wait a minute. I thought he was skiing." I thought, "This looks like it's water and an ocean."

    18. EK

      Yeah. Yeah.

    19. RC

      But then I thought, "Oh, this is ice."

    20. EK

      It's ice, ice floating on the ocean.

    21. RC

      Yeah. It's a pretty incredible photo-

    22. EK

      Mm-hmm

    23. RC

      ... first of all. But the foreword to the book is, like... Y- I don't know. I mean, you maybe can't say it about yourself. I'm gonna say it for you. It is just wisdom. Every single word is just-

    24. EK

      Thank you

    25. RC

      ... almost like this deep, deep wisdom-

    26. EK

      Mm

    27. RC

      ... that you've compressed into a foreword. Right. So this is what I'm gonna challenge you on, right?

    28. EK

      [laughs]

    29. RC

      You have discovered some quite profound things.

    30. EK

      Mm.

  17. 1:17:49 – 1:36:29

    Fear, oneness with nature, and a polar bear encounter

    1. RC

      I wanna talk about polar bears-

    2. EK

      Mm

    3. RC

      ... and fear.

    4. EK

      [laughs]

    5. RC

      Okay? So this is another story-

    6. EK

      All right

    7. RC

      ... I've been talking to the kids about. So, when you were relaying, um, your expedition to the South Pole earlier on today-

    8. EK

      Mm

    9. RC

      ... you said something which you wrote about on the North Pole as well, which I found just profound, this idea that after a few days, there's no separation anymore between you and the environment.

    10. EK

      No.

    11. RC

      You become the environment.

    12. EK

      Yeah.

    13. RC

      And of course, many of us never experience that. I'm sure a lot of ultra runners, you know, you know, long distance running is, is, is growing in popularity.

    14. EK

      Mm.

    15. RC

      And I, I'm sure one of the reasons why is you start to escape life a little bit and you start to connect-

    16. EK

      Yeah

    17. RC

      ... with parts of yourself that you just don't get to connect with-

    18. EK

      Mm

    19. RC

      ... in your day-to-day life.

    20. EK

      Mm.

    21. RC

      But of course, that can be a long walk or whatever it might be, right? But you also said that you don't feel fear because you're part of the environment-

    22. EK

      Yeah

    23. RC

      ... or something to that effect. So I, I found that really interesting.

    24. EK

      Much, much, much less fear because, um, like climbing Everest, kind of almost falling off a cliff, but it's just still a part of you. So you kind of, you know, you just kind of, it's kind of organic, the whole thing, you and the nature, every- you know, it's like if my mother had seen me walking to the North Pole, uh, uh, crossing a huge open lead in the ice-

    25. RC

      What's an open lead?

    26. EK

      A open lead, like, uh, the ice is breaking apart, and then you have water, open water between two ice floes.

    27. RC

      Oh, wow.

    28. EK

      And it's, the ocean is 3,000 meters deep, so if you fall into the water with a sled, you're in deep shit. And then, you know, you just-

    29. RC

      I.e. dead

    30. EK

      At least it's, you know, it's, it's really dangerous. But then because you're part of the ice, you're part of the snow, you're part of the wind, you're part of the water, it's, it's, uh, you kind of feel comfortable. Uh, but if my mother had seen me, you know, f- almost falling off a cliff at Everest or clo- crossing this open water, uh, towards the North Pole, she would be scared like shit. Uh, but when you're there, you're calm. And it's important that polar explorers not going to the North Pole because they don't have fear. They're doing it despite the fear. Of course, everyone has fear about this kind of environment, but then the fear kind of slowly disappears.

  18. 1:36:29 – 1:48:52

    Motivation, fathers and sons: the hidden emotional engine of exploration

    1. RC

      There's another bit in the foreword that's really got me thinking, okay? And again, if you don't mind, I wanna read-

    2. EK

      Mm-hmm. Love it

    3. RC

      ... a part of it to you.

    4. EK

      You know, it's always strange for an author, you maybe experienced yourself too as an author, to hear someone else is reading what you have written.

    5. RC

      Yeah.

    6. EK

      Because I think, you know, when you write something, at least for me, um, to make it into, you know, good literature or great literature, um, you're kind of escaping yourself. So sometimes when I hear something I have written, maybe not this, you have to s- you know, have to listen first, I'm surprised that I actually written this.

    7. RC

      Yeah. Um, it's also, before I read this, I... It, it also reminds me of what a lot of artists say, is that when they write a song and then they release the song, the song is no longer theirs.

    8. EK

      Yeah.

    9. RC

      Right? So they had an idea in mind-

    10. EK

      Mm-hmm

    11. RC

      ... when they wrote that song and recorded it, but a lot of artists who I follow, and I, I, I'm- I've always been fascinated by music and-

    12. EK

      Mm-hmm

    13. RC

      ... and listening to interviews with artists, you know, "It's not mine anymore. I've realized that everyone interprets that song differently."

    14. EK

      Mm-hmm.

    15. RC

      And I kinda feel I'm gonna read something to you now, but maybe it wasn't the way you intended it-

    16. EK

      [laughs]

    17. RC

      ... but this is my interpretation.

    18. EK

      No, no.

    19. RC

      Right? So here it is.

    20. EK

      Yeah.

    21. RC

      "My hope was to be respected by the person I respected most and to learn more about him, to deepen our bond-""... by freezing, starving, struggling, and experiencing great danger. My father's dark shadow loomed over my expedition, though I never told him this and find it hard to admit even to myself. Our journey," so your journey to the North Pole, "was an iteration of the oldest story in the world, the son who wants to know his father and be loved by him."

    22. EK

      Yeah. That's true.

    23. RC

      What does that mean? Why does your desire to be loved by your father lead you to going on a life-threatening expedition to the North Pole?

    24. EK

      Hmm. Um, mm, I grew up in a home when was very much of very masculine values. So for my two brothers and me, um, the huge thing, the way to get respect, uh, in the weekends and the evenings in the week was to ski far, walk far, being in nature, uh, pushing yourself, maybe putting up a record. Um, that was kind of how to get respect at home. And of course, every son, almost every son, um, I don't know anyone who doesn't, have, you know, uh, ha- has been struggling with their father. Like, the father and son relationship is the most, probably the most complicated in the world. And of course, also the father is struggling with his son or his sons. And this is like, you know... it was certainly the case in the- my household, uh, in our household, but when you look back in history, um, with the Old Testament, with the Bible, it wouldn't have been much to read in the Bible if fathers and sons had a good re- relationship. I mean, it's a, it's a kind of one clear red line through the Old Testament and the New Testament, father and son issues. And when you read... Like, I had a difficult time learning how to read and write because I was heavily dyslectic, so my mother and father, they read, uh, books for me when I was a kid, and my mother read Homer's Odyssey. And she read it for me, um, and of course, the first four parts of that book is not about, um, is, is about the son, Telemachus, who the first 20 years of his life, he has not seen his father, or maybe he saw just after he was born, like a few months. But then for 20 years, he has not known his father. And for every kid, the biggest mystery in life, or one of the biggest mysteries in life is who their parents were before they were born. And for Telemachus, it's also after he was born. So he s- leaves his home and sails the oceans to learn about his father, to see if the father is alive, to see what experience what the father has been experiencing, and maybe also, you know, um, to get to know his father. So that's one of the oldest stories ever, and, uh, to me, that's kind of the original written history on exploration. And to my great surprise, uh, when I did research on my book, um, uh, I also discovered that almost every North Pole explorer had a difficult relationship with their father, or their father disappeared.

    25. RC

      Wow.

    26. EK

      Like with Ran, uh, his father died as, as a soldier while, uh, s- Ran was still in the womb of his mother. And I talked to Ran about this many, many, many years ago, and the way I remember the conversation was that he said he would never, ever have become an explorer if it wasn't for the loss of his father, and he had to compensate and, like, you know, live a life to kind of match his father, live up to his father's ideals. So-

    27. RC

      Wow

    28. EK

      ... um, so that was also the case for me. Um, I had a very complicated relationship to my father. But fortunately... And, you know, a fun thing today, maybe not, not at the time, when I got home from the North Pole, Børge and I, we succeeded. We got to the Pole. It was a huge success. People are impressed because, of course, one of the many reasons you're walking to the North Pole is to get recognition. You want to impress. It's maybe not sympathetic. I don't think it's unsympathetic, but some people find it unsympathe- unsympathetic. But anyway, that's one of the reasons people are doing this. But when I met my father, he said, "I think it's ridiculous to walk to the North Pole. And by the way, your f- brother is more fit than you, so he should have done it." [laughs] But then today, uh... or, you know, some years later, uh, I forgave my father everything. He forgave me everything, and we became great friends. Unfortunately, today he's become a old man, but fortunately, he managed to read The North Pole before he got, um, too old, and he really... Like, you know, I was wondering what he would say about, you know, to read my version of this story. But fortunately, he, he, he, he, he, uh, appreciated it because, um, yeah, of course, he also found me to be a difficult person.

    29. RC

      Yeah. Wonder what it was like for him to read that paragraph that I just read to you.

    30. EK

      Yeah. Uh, but he, I think he felt it enriching because-

  19. 1:48:52 – 1:51:57

    Advice for feeling stuck: movement, nature, variation, and finding your ‘own North Pole’

    1. RC

      Which I found really, really interesting. Um, but to finish up this conversation, Erling-

    2. EK

      Mm

    3. RC

      ... there's a lot of people who listen to my podcast because they feel stuck in life.

    4. EK

      Mm-hmm.

    5. RC

      They feel a bit lost, as if their lives don't have meaning. They're lacking purpose, and they don't know where to go. With all of your wisdom, with all of these expeditions that you've been on, for someone who's struggling right now in their life, what would you say to them?

    6. EK

      Um, it's a tough one because, as I said earlier on, you know, our lives are quite alike and our problems are quite similar, but still it's unique. So, you know, to give general advice is difficult because, as you also have, I have deep respect for every human, also every human who's struggling. Uh, but what I said earlier on, I think most humans are underestimating themselves. From early on in life, like, you know, we're told you can't draw, and you believe you can't draw the rest of your life. You love surrender, you believe, et cetera. And this goes through from childhood, uh, teenage years into adult life, and all this, you know, kind of negativity, uh, shapes you. So somehow you have to break free of it, not all of it, but parts of it. And, and I think, you know, like to move, to walk, uh, move, moving, mo- being moved, as we talked about. It's, you know, to get up in the morning, to try to get into nature. And, you know, here in UK, it's kind of you maybe have to travel far to get into nature, but at least get into some parks and, and, and, um, try to have some variations in your life. Because if you happen to do kind of the same things every day, which for instance could be, um, spend hours every day looking into a screen and believe you're going to learn about yourself, learn about the world, and find meanings in life, it's a huge mistake.

    7. RC

      Mm.

    8. EK

      So somehow you have to, you have to, uh, be a little bit brutal to yourself. It's easy to say. It's difficult to do. But is it worth it? Yes.

    9. RC

      Yeah.

    10. EK

      So it's kind of, you know, it's about finding your own North Pole eventually.

    11. RC

      Erling, it's been such a joy talking to you.

    12. EK

      [laughs] Thank you.

    13. RC

      Thank you for writing all these wonderful books, and thank you for making the journey to the studio.

    14. EK

      Come to Norway. [laughs]

    15. RC

      That's it. We'll do it. Thanks, man.

    16. EK

      Thank you.

    17. RC

      If you enjoyed that conversation, then I think you are really going to enjoy this one.

    18. SP

      It's only when you learn what to do with your unhappiness that you can really break through and find stable happiness.

Episode duration: 1:51:57

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