50 Days Alone In Antarctica: "How Solitude Revealed Life’s True Meaning & Purpose" | Erling Kagge

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 0:00 You have said that silence is where the world's secrets are hidden. So how can someone who's just stumbled across this conversation, who is constantly surrounded by noise, start to cultivate that inner silence, and what are the benefits of them doing so?

Erling Kagge 0:19 Uh, um, the benefits are so many, but one of course is to get to know yourself, uh, better and to be, um, satisfied in your own company. And I think one of the ways to, uh, discover a silence is, this inner silence, is to be aware that noise, and not only sounds, but also distractions from your phone or distractions for whatever in your life, could also be a light, it could be sounds, it could be smells, it could be of course your telephone buzzing, et cetera, et cetera. All this noise is about other people. All this noise is about running away from yourself, running away from who you are, forgetting yourself, living through other people, other devices, while silence, inner silence, is about you. It's about who you are. And if you're going to be able to live a rich life, a fairly happy life, you get to know yourself.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:21 Yeah.

Erling Kagge 1:21 And of course, the easiest solution in life is to go for noise and relate to noise, and the more difficult option is to listen to yourself, listen to your own inner silence. And that's of course why people quite often choose noise.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:41 Now, when I hear you talk about silence and the benefits of silence, I think it has an extra resonance for me because you are this world-famous explorer, okay? You've been to the top of Mount Everest, you've been to the North Pole, you've been to the South Pole, and I wanna talk about a lot of these adventures and what you learnt about the world, about time, about yourself through those explorations and those expeditions. But relating this to silence, when you went to the South Pole, my understanding is that you did that with no radio, with no one surrounding you, so you had an entire 50 days in silence. First of all, is that correct?

Erling Kagge 2:33 [laughs] That's very correct.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:33 And if it is, can you paint a picture for us? What is that like? Because I think today some people struggle to get even five minutes of silence, yet you had 50 full days.

Erling Kagge 2:45 [laughs] It was a superb experience because, um, for the first couple days you get restless. Uh, you're missing the noise, you're missing people. Uh, you're a bit worried because it's, um, 1,300 kilometers to go, uh, just by yourself. And, um, uh, but then you calm down and you adapt to the circumstances. You're starting to look into nature. You're starting to listen to yourself and fairly soon you don't miss other people's company that much. Kind of the only thing I missed walking to the South Pole was skin contact with kind of hugging another person and, um, I think that was about it. And, uh, for me, of course, it was a journey and expedition towards the South Pole, but it ended up being a more important journey into myself, into my own soul, and I learned a great lesson on silence. And, um, but then later in life I got three daughters and eventually they became teenage daughters and my life was very much about noise. And [laughs] I understood my kids, they didn't really know what silence is and they said silence is nothing. Like also most philosophers say that silence is nothing and nothing comes from nothing. And then I understood I have to sit down and write a book about silence, what silence is, where it is, and why it's important. And it was my expedition to the South Pole who really taught me the importance of silence and being able to be silent and to be... Silence is not about turning your back to the world. It's not about living a more egocentric life. It's about the opposite. It's about seeing the Earth from a different perspective. It's about respecting other people, uh, to a greater degree. It's about appreciating yourself and your own company more, and it's about loving life even more.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 4:52 It's interesting that you went on this individual journey, yet you're saying that the silence that you managed to experience and I guess cultivate within yourself through that journey has helped you appreciate the world around you more. It's helped you appreciate other people more.

Erling Kagge 5:13 Exactly.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 5:13 And I wanna ask you then, is there a contradiction in some ways where we say that humans are social beings, right? You know, there's parts of our physiology and our brains that are, we think, about connecting with others.

Erling Kagge 5:28 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 5:29 Yet at the same time, you said something really, really fascinating for me that when you are... or when you were going to the South Pole, after a few days you, you, you didn't want other people around you. I- is that a contradiction?

Erling Kagge 5:43 No, it's not a contradiction I think because I think, you know, a good start to be able to appreciate other people and also respect other people is to be content with yourself and be able to be, uh, enjoying your own company and, uh, I, I think that's one of the reasons why you have so much-unhappiness in society because people have, you know, to a great degree forgotten themselves and forgotten how to be in their own company and always living through other people, always living through other devices. And then it's, I-- in my experience, it's getting difficult to appreciate other people in that way.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 6:22 Hmm. How old were you when you went to the South Pole?

Erling Kagge 6:25 Oh, 29. Uh [laughs] .

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 6:29 What year was that?

Erling Kagge 6:30 '92, '93. Yeah. Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 6:32 Okay. A different world back then.

Erling Kagge 6:34 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 6:34 Pre-internet.

Erling Kagge 6:35 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 6:36 Pre-smartphone.

Erling Kagge 6:37 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 6:37 Pre-social media.

Erling Kagge 6:38 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 6:39 It's easy for someone like me, or frankly anyone these days, to look back on the '90s or the '80s with rose-tinted glasses-

Erling Kagge 6:49 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 6:49 ... and go, "Oh, you know, we all had solitude then."

Erling Kagge 6:51 [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 6:51 "We all had silence back then." But that's not true, is it?

Erling Kagge 6:53 No, no, no, no, no. I think those years were, uh, quite similar to the lives we're living now.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 6:58 Really?

Erling Kagge 6:58 Yeah, I think so in many ways. Um, but one huge difference, of course, um, is the smartphone, that we are available at all times, and we want to be available at all times, and this whole idea about being entertained all the time has been growing, and also that we're being bored in a different way today. Like, um, when I grew up, we were bored because nothing was happening. And I remember my mother said to me, "Erling, it's healthy to be bored every now and then," and I thought almost she was joking. Today, I understand she was right, and today people are bored because too many things are happening, too many alternatives, and there's always some action on your screen. Um, so then they have kind of a different existential boredom. But I think, you know, it's kind of-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 7:49 Mm-hmm

Erling Kagge 7:49 ... the same kind of feeling, but you're still very-- people are really bored, I think.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 7:56 When you went to the South Pole, was there an option of having a radio?

Erling Kagge 8:01 Yes, it was an option. I was actually [laughs] forced to bring a radio, uh, by the airplan- airplane company who flew me out to the northern edge of Antarctica.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 8:10 For, for safety.

Erling Kagge 8:11 For safety, yeah. So, but my goal was to be the first to walk alone to the South Pole, and I also wanted to do it in solitude. So I threw away the batteries of the radio in the garbage bin of the plane. [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 8:25 Oh.

Erling Kagge 8:25 So [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 8:26 Hold on one minute. So you took the radio-

Erling Kagge 8:27 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 8:27 ... to comply with legal.

Erling Kagge 8:29 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 8:30 And then you thought, "Screw it."

Erling Kagge 8:31 Because, you know, you n- need to choose your battles, and I couldn't take that battle with the airplane company because they, you know, "We're not going to fly you unless you bring a radio." So I took the radio, emptied the bat- with the batteries, and when I was standing on the ice, seeing the plane taking off, and, uh, it was between 1,300 and 40 kilomet- 1,400 kilometers to the South Pole. I was totally by myself. I had a kind of a beeper who could send messages out, not receiving anything if it was emergency, but of course, if you fall into a crevasse, no one's going to hear that signal. So I was, you know, pretty much by myself, and that was, that was the goal, to be by myself for 50 or 60 or 65 days. But you know, it's a, it's a kind of a-- it's kind of the Norwegian dream to be able to ski all day, sleep well at night, and ski the next day again. But also what I experienced is this silence, um, and you move, you're being moved. It's a, it's in our language. You have motion, emotion. So it was, in that respect, it was kind of one long kind of meditation. Like, you kind of get self-hypnotized because life becomes so simple.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 9:49 Yeah.

Erling Kagge 9:49 You get up in the morning at the same time. You do things, two things at the same time, cook breakfast, uh, maintain ge- maintain your gear, repair your gear, prepare lunch. Then you take down your tent. To get going, you have fixed routines of when to have breaks. Eat the same food every day. Um, it doesn't, doesn't taste that well when you start on the expedition, but after you're getting more and more exhausted, it tasted better and better and better. And you go to sleep the same time every evening. So in that respect, it's kind of also very comfortable life.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 10:21 Yeah.

Erling Kagge 10:21 And you live in the present, that you tend to forget the past. You tend to stop thinking about the future because all those thoughts are also noise in your life, that you're thinking too much. But someday you gradually or gradually you g- become present in your own life.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 10:38 Yeah. You know, when I was rereading Silence, um, one of your earlier books which came out a few years ago now-

Erling Kagge 10:46 Mm-hmm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 10:46 ... it really struck me that... or certainly came to me, something I've been saying for, for many years now is I think for most people, I can't say for everyone because we're all different. We all live different lives.

Erling Kagge 11:01 We ca-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 11:01 Okay

Erling Kagge 11:01 ... we can never say for everyone. [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 11:03 Exactly. But I would imagine for most people that the single most important daily practice they can do in the modern world in 2025 is having a daily practice of solitude.

Erling Kagge 11:15 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 11:16 I really believe that more than-

Erling Kagge 11:18 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 11:18 ... more than I ever have done. But I imagine that when people hear that, one of the things they're gonna say is, "I don't have time for that."

Erling Kagge 11:27 Hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 11:27 Right?

Erling Kagge 11:28 That's usual comment.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 11:30 Okay.

Erling Kagge 11:30 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 11:30 What's your take on that?

Erling Kagge 11:33 I think in general, people are underestimating themselves. I have traveled to more than 100 countries, talked to thousands of people, and in general, people are underestimating the possibilities they have in life. And, and, uh, you know, 10 minutes of solitude, uh, is, uh, better than no solitude. And, uh, I also think I have to respect that, you know, some phases of life, um, with small kids, et cetera, it's more difficult. But in general, um, I think people are wrong when they say they're not having time for such.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 12:06 Hmm.

Erling Kagge 12:08 And I think, you know, what is said is s- so true, that solitude, of course, it's kind of... it can be something negative, just like with silence it could be something negative of course. Uh, one minute of silence, silence in the church, in a funeral, silence when you're sitting, when you are heartbroken. Uh, it could be negative, but it's also very enriching. And, and solitude is, is certainly needed and, and people today, uh, they have too much noise and just too little solitude. Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 12:41 Yeah. What's interesting is when you were describing the start of that South Pole journey-

Erling Kagge 12:47 Mm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 12:48 ... to me, you said for the first two days you were a bit restless.

Erling Kagge 12:52 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 12:52 Right? And I think this is a really key point for us to just emphasize here, right? This idea that if you're used to constant stimulation and noise, if that's your norm, you know, 10 minutes of silence may well feel quite threatening.

Erling Kagge 13:11 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 13:11 Right? If you-

Erling Kagge 13:11 Mm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 13:12 ... came from the city, you got the plane out to the South Pole, and you're about to embark on this journey, for the first two days, you almost need to let the thoughts burn themselves out, right?

Erling Kagge 13:22 Yeah. Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 13:22 So that you can access the silence that's actually there within us.

Erling Kagge 13:25 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 13:26 Right? Back in October of last year, so 2024-

Erling Kagge 13:31 Mm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 13:31 ... I was involved with a Channel 4 documentary, um, about smartphones and children.

Erling Kagge 13:37 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 13:37 And we went to a school and we did this experiment. So for 21 days, year eight, so this is kids who are about 12 years old or so-

Erling Kagge 13:46 Mm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 13:46 ... gave up all technology, smartphones, gaming devices, uh, and their laptops, right?

Erling Kagge 13:54 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 13:54 And we were measuring with the University of York what happened.

Erling Kagge 13:57 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 13:58 And what you said in this sort of macro view of going to the South Pole happened in the micro when we went to the school, right?

Erling Kagge 14:07 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 14:08 The first two to three days, it was like they were withdrawing from a drug.

Erling Kagge 14:13 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 14:13 Really restless. They were kind of missing it.

Erling Kagge 14:15 Of course.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 14:15 Like, "What am I gonna do?"

Erling Kagge 14:16 Of course. Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 14:16 Right? Just reminded me-

Erling Kagge 14:17 Mm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 14:17 ... when I've had patients before, you know, coming off sugar-

Erling Kagge 14:20 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 14:21 ... or alcohol, whatever it might be.

Erling Kagge 14:22 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 14:22 I was like, "Wow, this is really interesting."

Erling Kagge 14:25 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 14:25 And then they all pretty much dropped in to this greater feeling of calm.

Erling Kagge 14:31 Oh.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 14:32 Right? And we studied this-

Erling Kagge 14:33 Mm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 14:33 ... and anxiety went down, depression went down. The kids felt more socially connected, right? They were worried beforehand.

Erling Kagge 14:42 Of course. Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 14:42 They thought they, they were gonna feel less-

Erling Kagge 14:43 Oh

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 14:43 ... but they felt more socially-

Erling Kagge 14:44 Mm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 14:44 ... connected without these devices-

Erling Kagge 14:47 Mm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 14:47 ... and they were sleeping more. But you had to go through two to three days of discomfort. And so bringing it back to how someone watching this video or listening to this-

Erling Kagge 14:56 Mm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 14:56 ... podcast right now can find silence in their lives, have you got any advice for us in terms of this idea that actually if you're used to noise, silence is gonna feel uncomfortable at first, but you've almost gotta get through that to get at peace?

Erling Kagge 15:13 Exactly. It, it is uncomfortable to, to search for silence. And, and of course, you know, hundreds of thousands, maybe millions of people actually working day and night to make us addicted to different apps, to get us addicted to the screens. So of course, many of these people are super clever, so, uh, and doing a good job. And, and, and so it is difficult to, to, to search for, search for silence and experience silence, as I said, for a while. And I think, you know, your experiment is really interesting, and I would find it like maybe next time, you know, also combine it with having the same, uh, people, uh, doing some outdoors because, of course, young people today, they hardly spend any time in nature.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 16:03 Yeah.

Erling Kagge 16:04 And they hardly walk, they hardly move. Like just here in England, um, when I wa- wrote my book on, uh, walking, um, I saw this research that, you know, who's spending the least time doing... being outside of a building in UK. I thought it would be prisoners, like they have routinely have one hour outside their cell every day, um, walking back and forth or what- whatever they do. Uh, but 40% of kids in UK spend less than an hour outside every day. 25% of the kids, they're not outside at all. Of course, they go back and forth to school, whatever, but that's it. So, uh, you know, the possibility to have a good life, um, if you're not outside, I don't think anything is impossible, at least not philosophically in life, but it's almost impossible to have a good life. So of course, that experiment combined with being a little bit in nature, um, you know, I think miracles will happening.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 17:10 Yeah.

Erling Kagge 17:10 And of course, miracles are happening every day. We don't, just don't see them, but this will be a huge miracle.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 17:15 Yeah. Interestingly enough, although we didn't prescribe what they would do-

Erling Kagge 17:19 Mm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 17:19 ... a lot of the kids actually ended up outside more.

Erling Kagge 17:22 Exactly. Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 17:22 Right? And they were playing more-

Erling Kagge 17:23 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 17:23 ... and they were starting to invent games with twigs and-

Erling Kagge 17:27 Exactly

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 17:27 ... that kind of boredom stuff-

Erling Kagge 17:28 Exactly

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 17:28 ... right-

Erling Kagge 17:28 Exactly

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 17:28 ... which we would have done in the past, but-

Erling Kagge 17:30 Exactly

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 17:30 ... I, I do think this is one of the most alarming things in the modern world-

Erling Kagge 17:33 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 17:33 ... and how we've eroded silence away from our lives. It kind of doesn't exist for many people.

Erling Kagge 17:40 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 17:40 In your book on silence-

Erling Kagge 17:41 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 17:41 ... and actually this is even a theme, I would say-

Erling Kagge 17:43 Mm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 17:43 ... in your latest book, uh, The North Pole: The History of an Obsession, which is just another [laughs] phenomenal book-

Erling Kagge 17:51 Mm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 17:51 ... which has really captured my attention. There's this theme of silence, I think, throughout all your work-

Erling Kagge 17:58 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 17:58 ... at least all the work that I've read of yours, right?

Erling Kagge 18:00 Yeah. Yeah. Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 18:00 And one of the things that you write about that comes across is this idea that silence is not emptiness, but it's a gateway to self-discovery.

Erling Kagge 18:09 Yeah.And, you know, the most, most important discovery in the world is to, you know, discover who you are. And, and we have this tendency in life to always choose the easiest option, which I've, you know, um, which I think is a huge mistake. I think we actively need to make our lives, lives more difficult than they have to be. Um, it's not for everyone, but let's say most people, they should actively make their life a little bit more difficult.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 18:41 Yeah.

Erling Kagge 18:43 That's the only way to find meaning in life, to make it more difficult.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 18:50 In my last book, I put forward this hypothesis that I've had for a number of years about certain patients that I'd seen.

Erling Kagge 18:59 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 18:59 Okay? And it really relates to what you have just said, and I'd love to get your take on it. A lot of patients over the years I have seen have this almost low-grade anxiety.

Erling Kagge 19:16 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 19:17 And I've had this strong feeling for a period of time that this comes from not regularly testing themselves. Okay? So I believe on a core, deep level, we all know that life could get tough-

Erling Kagge 19:31 Mm-hmm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 19:32 ... at some point, right?

Erling Kagge 19:33 Life is, life is a struggle.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 19:35 Yeah.

Erling Kagge 19:36 It has to be a struggle.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 19:37 Yeah.

Erling Kagge 19:37 This whole idea that to have as little resistance as possible in life, it's just a huge misunderstanding.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 19:44 Yeah. But here's the thing, and I think this relates to your point, right, that if you are not regularly doing things that test you-

Erling Kagge 19:51 Mm-hmm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 19:51 ... that are a bit uncomfortable-

Erling Kagge 19:53 Mm-hmm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 19:54 ... you actually become weak.

Erling Kagge 19:56 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 19:56 Physically weak, yes-

Erling Kagge 19:57 Mm-hmm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 19:57 ... but also mentally weak, right?

Erling Kagge 19:59 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 19:59 And I, I don't say that in a judgmental way-

Erling Kagge 20:01 No

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 20:01 ... just to be clear. I'm just saying that you have this kind of fragile sense of who you are. You know that if life was to get tough, which it could do-

Erling Kagge 20:09 Mm-hmm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 20:10 ... you can't cope because you haven't regularly tested yourself, right?

Erling Kagge 20:14 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 20:14 So people talk about the benefits of physical activity, right?

Erling Kagge 20:17 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 20:17 And they look at your hormones and what it does for your muscles and sure, I've seen all the research and I, and I agree.

Erling Kagge 20:23 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 20:23 At the same time, I think one of the key benefits of physical activity, depending on how you do it, is that you teach yourself resilience.

Erling Kagge 20:32 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 20:32 Right?

Erling Kagge 20:32 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 20:32 You show yourself that I'm a capable human being who can cope. If you never have silence or solitude or adventure or you do anything uncomfortable, you, you're not showing yourself with any real-world evidence-

Erling Kagge 20:46 No

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 20:46 ... that you can cope.

Erling Kagge 20:47 No. It's, uh, it's, um, it's dramatic for, you know, for everyone, uh, who's in that situation. It's a major problem in society, um, uh-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 20:59 Same in Norway?

Erling Kagge 21:01 Yes, it is, but it's Norwegians are closer to nature than people in the UK and people in most places. Um-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 21:08 When, when you say closer to nature, what do you mean? Do you mean it's easier to access nature for Norwegians?

Erling Kagge 21:13 Eas- easier to access nature, but also spending more time in nature in general. Not... I mean, Norwegians should improve, I think. Um, they're also hooked on social media and blah, blah, blah. And also sit, prefer to sit down in a chair, uh, looking into a screen to see what's going on in the world and getting to know themselves and, uh, and, and, uh, have a good life. But then again, compared to UK and most, uh, most, uh, countries, Norwegians spend more time in nature. It's more integrated in their lives. So it's a little bit better, but, uh, it's moving the wrong direction.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 21:48 Yeah. Do you meditate?

Erling Kagge 21:51 Uh, I meditate in the sense that I do a lot of walking. Uh, I love walking. Um, and for me, that's a kind of meditation. With a walk, without holding your phone in your hand and, uh, for 10 minutes or for two hours or for more, for me, that's, that's meditation. And, um, in addition, I do self-hypnosis. So I try to self-hypnotize myself every late afternoon because then quite often a little bit tired from a long day, and, uh, then I get into my subconsciousness for 20 minutes, and, uh, I feel totally refreshed the rest of the evening. Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 22:30 So you do self-hypnosis-

Erling Kagge 22:31 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 22:32 ... in the afternoons?

Erling Kagge 22:32 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 22:33 Is that something you had to learn?

Erling Kagge 22:35 It's something you can learn, but it's [laughs] it's very easy to learn. It's, uh, it's, um, a friend of mine, I met her in the UK in '95 when I was reading philosophy. He said to me, "Erling, you have been self-hypnotized yourself throughout your life on expeditions, et cetera, and without knowing it. So you should learn the technique to get to know yourself better." So he taught me in one day, which I think, you know, everyone can learn, uh, how to hypnotize myself.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 23:07 And you said you have energy afterwards.

Erling Kagge 23:10 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 23:10 What are some of the other benefits you get from self-hypnosis?

Erling Kagge 23:13 Certainly energy. Um, uh, you s- I still need to sleep the same amount of hours, but energy. And also, I believe I'm kind of manipulating my sub- subconsciousness a little bit, but of course, the subconsciousness is either with you or against you. So, um, I think, you know, it's getting on my side, and sometimes I'm hypnotized just go into this silence and, uh, everything's disappearing. And other occasions, I try to follow an idea into subconsciousness and chase that idea while I'm subconscious.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 23:49 Yeah. Wow. I hadn't thought about self-hypnosis.

Erling Kagge 23:53 But it's, you know, it's only 20 minutes. And, uh, for me, it's like, you know, it's not super important, but it's, it is important and it makes my life more, more comfortable.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 24:03 Yeah. Let's talk about time.

Erling Kagge 24:05 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 24:05 Right? Because whether it's in what you just said or some of the powerful ideas I've been reading about in your, in your book, The North Pole, right?I've been thinking a lot about time-

Erling Kagge 24:18 Mm-hmm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 24:19 ... and how clock time-

Erling Kagge 24:21 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 24:21 ... I point-- Uh, I don't have a watch on, right? I don't wear a watch for that reason.

Erling Kagge 24:25 I th- I think that's, you know, a good idea.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 24:27 I, I... It's funny, I used to be obsessed with watches as a kid. I'd always wanna know the time.

Erling Kagge 24:31 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 24:31 And about, I don't know, four or five years ago-

Erling Kagge 24:33 Mm-hmm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 24:34 ... I thought, "I'm not interested."

Erling Kagge 24:35 I will, I will think about that, actually. Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 24:36 Because wearing a watch-- And I guess if you have a smartphone, then you're gonna constantly see the time on that thing anyway.

Erling Kagge 24:44 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 24:44 S- so that's one reason why I guess people don't need to wear watches in the way that they may have done in the past.

Erling Kagge 24:48 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 24:48 And I also accept that you may have a certain job where you need to look at the time and be-

Erling Kagge 24:53 Yeah. Mm-hmm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 24:53 ... on that clock time regularly.

Erling Kagge 24:55 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 24:55 But time really is a human construct.

Erling Kagge 24:58 Totally. Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 24:58 Right? You-- And you think that, oh, that time has moved on in a linear fashion.

Erling Kagge 25:04 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 25:05 But that doesn't account for your experience of time, right?

Erling Kagge 25:09 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 25:10 One hour with your best friend, uh, having a deep conversation is still one hour of clock time.

Erling Kagge 25:16 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 25:17 But one hour of watching paint dry may have a completely different experience.

Erling Kagge 25:22 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 25:22 But we still measure it in the same way, right?

Erling Kagge 25:24 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 25:24 And so going back to this idea that people will say, "I don't have time for solitude," I bet for most people that 20 minutes of solitude you take each day, because of how it will change the way you see yourself view the world, you'll probably process certain ideas, you will actually get that time [chuckles] back throughout the day. So that, that 20-minute investment probably gives you two hours in the day-

Erling Kagge 25:51 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 25:51 ... but you don't realize it.

Erling Kagge 25:52 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 25:53 What's your take on that? Because you've got a really interesting relationship with time. I mean, I'll talk to you about the bits about the North Pole, which really resonated with me. But how do you see time?

Erling Kagge 26:03 [laughs] I, uh-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 26:04 That's a big question.

Erling Kagge 26:05 Yeah. First of all, you know, when, um... As I said earlier on, of course, you know, sometimes you're simply short on time because you have small kids or whatever, like, you know, blah, blah, blah. But in general, uh, when people say they're short on time, um, I don't say it straight to them because it could be upsetting, but, you know, in general it's bullshit because, um, we have a lot of time, and life is long if you, you know, if you live your life in a way that you have some, um, some, um, variety. But of course if you spend three or four hours every day on social media, uh, many people of course spend a lot more, that's around 13 years night and day of your life, and no wonder you feel you're short on time. So you just need to, you just need to, uh, you know, change that habit, uh, 99% or 50% or whatever, and you will certainly have time. So that's one, one take. But then, um, how to experience time. Of course, if you go to Japan, stay for two days, you feel like you have been there for two or four weeks because everything is different. And but if you sit at home looking to a screen most of the time, um, you feel like, you know, two days have been like, you know, it could have been two hours or whatever. And then people tend, when they're getting as old as me, 62 years old, you, you go to these 60th, 70th, 80th, even 90th birthdays, and people usually give these speeches and they say, like, you know, "All these days and weeks and years passed by, and I didn't really understand that this was life." And, [chuckles] and the guests feel like, you know, this is really deep, sensitive s- you know, speaking. Uh, but to me, it's just a sad story because we had this huge possibility to have a rich life, and we're wasting it.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 28:08 Yeah.

Erling Kagge 28:09 But also another apropos to time is, um, talking about spending time in nature. But if you travel from A to B, and, and you take a car, and it takes you 20 minutes to drive, you go on the highway, and you get, you know, you get to B in 20 minutes, you feel that you have saved time. But if you happen to walk the same distance, maybe it takes you three hours, and you walk on some narrow roads or through a forest or, or over a field, um, mathematically you have spent a lot more time walking than actually driving the distance. But that's also only part, you know, that's... In reality, I don't find it to be the case because when you drive that distance, you don't experience anything. You don't see anything. You don't smell anything. You don't hear anything. Uh, you hardly have time to, uh, think about anything. But if you happen to walk instead, and let's say you're walking towards a mountain, you hear the sounds of some water, uh, you hear the sounds of the wind, you see the colors, you, you know, you experience the different smells, you experience the wind coming to you on the skin, and you have time to think, and somehow the world space is expanding and time is expanding. While when you drive the same distance, time is narrowing in, space or the world is narrowing in. And eventually when you get to the mountain, it's like, you know, it's almost like you're reaching a good friend.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 29:45 Yeah. It's really interesting, the idea that we, we think we're saving time by taking the car. But are we, right? Are we really?

Erling Kagge 29:59 I don't think so. Sometimes yes, but, you know, quite often not. And also, I should add, you know, quite often when you get to B in a rush, you know, you don't have that much to do at point B. You sit down and look into your phone again. [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 30:18 [laughs]

Erling Kagge 30:19 So, [laughs] so it is, it is actuallyUm, I don't think, you know, hardly anything in life's 100% meaningless, but it's almost 100% meaningless

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 30:30 Yeah. Just taking a quick break to give a shout-out to AG1. Now, AG1 is a science-based foundational nutrition supplement that contains 75 whole food sourced nutrients. It contains vitamin C and zinc, which helps support a healthy immune system, and also prebiotics and digestive enzymes, which helps support your gut's health. And one of the best things about AG1 is that all this goodness comes in one convenient daily serving that makes it really easy to fit into your life, no matter how busy you feel, and it's also really, really tasty. What makes AG1 really special is the team of scientists behind it. I speak to them regularly, and I'm really impressed by their commitment to making a high quality product. If you want to try AG1, they are giving my audience a really special offer. One year supply of vitamin D, which is really good for your immune system, and five

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 31:31 free travel packs with your first order. You can see all details at drinkag1.com/livemore or just click on the link below. Now, back to the conversation. This idea of time is interesting and how walking changes our perception of time. I heard you say something yesterday in an interview which really got me to pause and think. Last time you were in LA or something-

Erling Kagge 31:58 Mm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 31:58 ... one of the times you were in Los Angeles-

Erling Kagge 32:00 Mm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 32:00 ... you walked.

Erling Kagge 32:01 Yeah. [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 32:02 Right? But you walked a long distance.

Erling Kagge 32:03 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 32:03 Now, for people who've never been to LA, I was there a few months ago-

Erling Kagge 32:06 Mm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 32:06 ... doing all my book promo.

Erling Kagge 32:07 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 32:07 Right? It's a very large city. It's not easy to walk. Most people don't walk. It's a very car driven city.

Erling Kagge 32:16 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 32:16 So can you just share your experience because it, it, it was really quite fascinating for me to hear this.

Erling Kagge 32:24 Yeah. Together with two friends, Norwegian friends, uh, Petter Skavlan and Peder Lund, we have this project about walking through cities and, uh, we decided to walk from Eastern LA, uh, kinda gang land, Cesar Chavez Avenue, way east. Walked on Cesar Chavez into Sunset Boulevard and walk all the way Sunset to the ocean. And-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 32:46 Can you give us an idea of what that sort of distance is?

Erling Kagge 32:48 Uh, it's only like 45, 50 kilometers maybe.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 32:52 Okay, hold on a minute. I just love the fact that you go, "It's only 50 kilometers," right?

Erling Kagge 32:57 [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 32:57 'Cause in your perception, having been to the extremes of the world, it's different from most people's.

Erling Kagge 33:02 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 33:02 But okay.

Erling Kagge 33:02 But we spent, we spent three or four days, so it's like, you know, it's... so, uh, it was physically is easy. Um, but what was interesting that you see LA is we're kind of seeing everything everyone else is seeing, but you're seeing from a different angle because you see it from the curb of the road, and we see it in slow motion because al- almost everyone is driving and everyone is kind of looking, you know, into the next car in the queue all the time. But when you're slowly walking through the city, you see, yeah, everything, you know, in a different way. And our idea was to not leave those two avenues, stick to the avenues, and do whatever we could on, you know, on the trek. So we went to the Church of Scientology at, at, at, uh, at the beginning of Sunset Boulevard. We, um, ha- applied for membership. We had, uh, 45 minutes interviews each. Uh, we had 45 minutes introduction course to Scientology just for fun. [laughs] And, uh-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 34:08 Just for something to do

Erling Kagge 34:09 ... just so you know, just we did whatever we could do, um, uh, by following those two streets. And way east in LA, uh, you know, we were stopped by the police, uh, not because we looked like we're going to commit, um, any crime, but because, uh, they were just suspicious that, you know, three guys were walking with a tiny backpack each through that part of the city.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 34:33 So hold on. You got stopped by police because walking is so rare in LA-

Erling Kagge 34:38 Yeah, yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 34:38 ... that they thought, "This is weird."

Erling Kagge 34:39 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 34:39 "There's two guys here walking."

Erling Kagge 34:40 Especially that part. It's all over LA, it's kind of walking long distances, uh, very exotic, but that part of LA is, you know, lots of crime going on. And-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 34:49 What, what did you say to the police?

Erling Kagge 34:50 Uh, we told them, like we told, told them the truth, that we're three Norwegians that want to explore LA in slow motion. And, [laughs] uh-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 34:59 What did, what did they say to that?

Erling Kagge 35:00 ... I'm convinced eventually, eventually one of the police guys said, "Would you like to take a photo with me?" [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 35:06 [laughs]

Erling Kagge 35:07 Which we did. [laughs] So no, but it's, it's, it's, it's, it's interesting to see a city, uh, in that way. And another time, together with a guy called Steve Duncan, an American urban explorer, we went, we crisscrossed New York City through the sewage, train, water, and, uh, subway tunnels. We started at 242nd Street in Bronx and, uh, moved towards the Atlantic Ocean, uh, Jamaica Bay, uh, through the tunnels, sleeping on the ground, getting above ground quite a few times to, uh, change tunnels and, uh, sometimes took the metro, sometimes took a taxi. But for five days, just moving slowly through the city, alpine style, with a little mattress so we could sleep on the ground, a little cooker. Um, so that was another great way to see-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 36:00 Mm

Erling Kagge 36:00 ... a city from the inside out and what New York would look like if you turned it upside down. And of course, everything happens below ground is, uh, somehow reflected above ground.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 36:11 Yeah. I wanna move on to your North Pole expedition in just a moment, but there's two things about what you've said so far about when you walked to the South Pole that I can't get out of my head, okay? The first thing, this idea that life was actually, um-In some ways, quite monotonous when you were walking to the South Pole.

Erling Kagge 36:37 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 36:37 But it didn't matter. You shared with me that you actually had some whiskey bottles with you.

Erling Kagge 36:41 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 36:42 But you never actually touched them.

Erling Kagge 36:43 No.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 36:43 Can you explain that? Because, uh, I think it relates to what you said before about this boredom, right? So you were saying when you were a kid, you were bored because there was nothing to do. Now people have got this kind of existential boredom because we're just l- having this kind of low-grade stimulation-

Erling Kagge 37:02 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 37:02 ... all the time on our screens.

Erling Kagge 37:04 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 37:04 And we don't realize, we think it's nourishing us, but on a deep level, it's actually starving us.

Erling Kagge 37:08 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 37:09 Right?

Erling Kagge 37:10 Starving us for meaning.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 37:12 Starving us for meaning.

Erling Kagge 37:13 Yeah. It's brutal. I mean, if you starve something from meanings or meanings in life, not the meaning of life, but you're starving them for meanings in life, that's super brutal.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 37:27 But we are in a meaning crisis at the moment.

Erling Kagge 37:29 Ab- absolutely. And, you know, it's increasing meaning crisis.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 37:35 But I think the only way you get to meaning is through solitude.

Erling Kagge 37:42 I think that's a very good observation.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 37:45 You have to have it.

Erling Kagge 37:47 It's brutal, but it's true.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 37:50 Yeah. And I worry about kids these days who are being conditioned from a young age to not have any time alone with their thoughts. I purposefully fight in my house to keep it a low-tech house.

Erling Kagge 38:05 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 38:06 I don't want high tech in the house. I, I say to my wife, "I want it to be an analog house." As little digital as possible to-

Erling Kagge 38:13 Right

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 38:13 ... because I think that's who we are. We're analog beings trying to live unsuccessfully in an increasingly digital world.

Erling Kagge 38:21 I think it's a very good idea. I think as a father, uh, of course, I've done many mistakes, but maybe the biggest mistake I did as a father was not to enforce the kids to leave the telephones in the kitchen before they went to bed, or like, you know, one hour before they went to bed.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 38:38 Yeah.

Erling Kagge 38:38 That's like, you know, that was just stupid. But, but, you know, they're doing really well now. They're all in their 20s, so I mean, it's not a catastrophe, but it's like, you know-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 38:45 Mm

Erling Kagge 38:47 ... that was, that was a huge mistake by me.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 38:49 Yeah. Can you just explain what that sort of, um, simple, almost monotonous life was like and why you never chose to open those whiskey bottles?

Erling Kagge 39:00 [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 39:01 So what... First of all, why did you take the whiskey bottles with you, and why did you never end up opening them?

Erling Kagge 39:08 I thought, uh, to bring this kind of super small, these miniature bottles, I think I had three or four with malt whiskey. I should celebrate, uh, when I was halfway. I should celebrate on Christmas Eve, which is the great day in, uh, Norway for Christmas. I should celebrate on New Year's Eve with a little whiskey because I thought that would give me satisfaction, uh, which it usually, you know, does. Uh, but as I said, after a few days, total solitude, no possibility to communicate with the outside world. You have the same written during the day. You put one leg in front of the other. Technical-wise, it's easy. You just have to be willing to do it. And of course, the greater challenge every day is to get up in the morning at the right time. That has been the same challenge in polar exploration for hundreds of years.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 39:59 Why, why is that such a challenge?

Erling Kagge 40:01 Because you're, you're a bit exhausted. It could be cold. The North Pole is super cold, maybe -45, min- -50 in the tent. So it-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 40:09 Hold on. Let's just clarify. Centigrade?

Erling Kagge 40:11 Yeah, centigrade. Yeah. So that's like, you know, 60 Fahrenheit or something. Down to 60 Fahrenheit.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 40:16 So just let me be clear I got that right.

Erling Kagge 40:19 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 40:19 It can be as cold as -50 degrees centigrade.

Erling Kagge 40:23 Yeah. To the North Pole. South Pole, warmer, but still the ultimate challenge, I think also back home, but, you know, still is much easier, is to get up in the morning at the right time every day. And then you do routines. You start walking one leg in front of the other, hours, hours, hours, and you're nature. You feel like, you know, uh, when you're by yourself, it's getting even stronger, that you're becoming a part of nature, that your body doesn't stop by your fingertips or by your skin, but is extended into na- nature around you, and you send some ideas out, and you got all the thoughts back again. So you have a kind of a communication with nature. Not, not necessarily with words, but more like just emotions, experiencing, experiences coming back and, and, and, and, um, and forth. And you feel really, really enriched. And, and for other people, when you see it from a f- you know, f- long distance, you will think you're kind of scared or feel fear a lot. But because you're so much a part of the environment, you don't feel that fear very much. And then again, because life becomes so rich and you're not living through the past, you're not living through the future, but you're more, more or less, not all the time, but most of the time, you're present in the moment, and quite often not thinking at all, which is a beautiful experience. And then, as I said, the food is getting better and better every day because you're getting exhausted.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 42:02 But it's the same food.

Erling Kagge 42:03 Same food every day.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 42:04 Which is what were, what were you eating?

Erling Kagge 42:06 Um, uh, I ate a lot of oat in the morning with, with, uh, that you mix with water you get from melting ice and snow. And then, uh, formula milk. Uh, not ordinary dry milk, but formal- formula milk. It gives more energy per gram. It's all about saving weight. And during the day, day, um, uh, oat, fat, formula milk, um, and maybe some bacon, maybe some chocolate. And the evening, a little bit more of, uh, carbohydrates and, uh-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 42:39 But, but something as-

Erling Kagge 42:40 ... dried meat

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 42:40 ... as, as, as bland potentially as oats with water, right?

Erling Kagge 42:43 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 42:43 Right.

Erling Kagge 42:43 Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 42:44 You're saying that day by day-That becomes tastier

Erling Kagge 42:48 Yeah, much tastier

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 42:50 Why?

Erling Kagge 42:50 Because, um, you get tired, you get exhausted, and you're craving food, you're craving energy, you're craving healthy food, and you get healthy food

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 43:01 It's real hunger

Erling Kagge 43:02 It's real. Exactly

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 43:02 It's like you've, you've earned-

Erling Kagge 43:04 Exactly. Which I think, you know-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 43:06 [laughs]

Erling Kagge 43:06 ... it, it really was interesting when I sat down to write, uh, The North Pole. Um, you know, then you have to find the words for, you know, your ideas and your experiences, and I put it, you know, uh, nicer in writing, but c- but, but, uh, but then you get down to the origins of gratefulness on an expedition because the origins of g- uh, gratefulness is to become warm after you have been cold. Uh, you get full after having been starving, and you're having rest after, you know, you have been exhausted by, you know, moving physically. And those three are something, like in the other part of the world, most people have forgotten. And I think, you know, gratefulness, to be able to feel gratefulness, is the key to have a good, good life.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 43:57 Yeah. It's... That is... Those three things, right, that is incredible because warmth after you've been cold-

Erling Kagge 44:05 Mm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 44:06 ... food after you've been starving-

Erling Kagge 44:09 Starving. Mm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 44:09 ... rest after you're exhausted.

Erling Kagge 44:11 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 44:11 Right? If you just look at the modern Western world at the very least-

Erling Kagge 44:14 Mm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 44:15 ... as you say, these are three things that a lot of people are never really experiencing.

Erling Kagge 44:20 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 44:21 Right?

Erling Kagge 44:21 And then back to your question, then you don't need a dash of whiskey to get satisfaction or feel, feel well.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 44:29 Yeah. So-

Erling Kagge 44:30 It, it's a distraction to drink any whiskey to get any kind of... You know, get intoxicated in any way when you're feeling, experiencing what you're talking about now.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 44:41 Yeah

Erling Kagge 44:41 So I end up, when I get home to Norway, still had the bottles and gave them away as presents.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 44:47 There's something so profound in what you've just said, right? Uh, I, I felt for many years, why are we so... Well, uh, l- let me talk about a personal example. I'm very happy eating the same food every day.

Erling Kagge 45:02 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 45:02 I have literally no problem with it. In fact, I quite like it. It simplifies life. You don't have to think. My wife has quite a different perspective on that, and I- I'm not saying anyone's right or wrong. She li- "Well, we had that yesterday. I want something different tonight."

Erling Kagge 45:15 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 45:15 I get that, and again, it could be related to, you know, men and women are different. We have different taste buds. We have a different experience with foods. But I think there's something about the simple life and real simplicity that you must frankly have when you're on these expeditions-

Erling Kagge 45:30 Mm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 45:30 ... because life is just boiled down to the absolute essence-

Erling Kagge 45:33 Mm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 45:33 ... of what it means to be alive, right?

Erling Kagge 45:35 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 45:36 Is part of the reason we're struggling with all these addictions and we need a beautifully tasty meal every single day that's different from the day before because our life is in some way a little bit tedious? You know, because of maybe all this constant stimulation-

Erling Kagge 45:56 Mm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 45:56 ... like we're not getting that deep nourishment.

Erling Kagge 45:58 Yeah. True.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 45:58 So we need that from somewhere. So we think we're gonna get it from the latest Deliveroo, right? You know, that's, that's how comfortable life can be for humans now-

Erling Kagge 46:06 Mm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 46:06 ... where you can literally sit in your pajamas in your bed, do some work if you have a job that enables you-

Erling Kagge 46:11 Mm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 46:11 ... to do that, and you don't even have to go and hunt food, gather food.

Erling Kagge 46:17 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 46:18 You don't even need to go to the supermarket anymore.

Erling Kagge 46:20 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 46:20 You can literally on your app have someone deliver a tasty meal that they've cooked for you. You know-

Erling Kagge 46:27 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 46:28 ... o- on one level-

Erling Kagge 46:28 Mm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 46:28 ... you could say, how incredible are humans-

Erling Kagge 46:31 Mm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 46:31 ... that we've created a world where this is possible, but it's coming at a huge cost, isn't it?

Erling Kagge 46:35 Yeah. It's a progress, really. Not really. But I, I, I kept on eating porridge made of oat in the morning, and, uh, but for dinner I have variations, and I like to cook because, um, of course it's tastier when you cook and it's fresh on the plate. But for me, even more important is that that's kind of one of the times during the day when I actually have to put everything else aside. I get... You know, I buy, I buy the raw material. Uh, I make an effort that it's as good as possible, and then I cook. Maybe it takes me 20 minutes, maybe it take me 45 minutes, an hour, but then I can only think about the cooking. And even when I'm by myself because now my kids are moved out, um, I usually make food for myself because it's a break. It's a meditation. You also got meditation. It's a kind of meditation to cook, and maybe I just spend 20 minutes, uh, eating the food afterwards, but then, like, you know, the whole process is good for the soul.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 47:37 You're by yourself this entire time, right?

Erling Kagge 47:41 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 47:41 When you're going to the South Pole-

Erling Kagge 47:42 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 47:42 ... okay, what's the terrain like? What... Are you doing what you did with the North Pole, which is are you on skis and you're pulling something behind you?

Erling Kagge 47:48 Yeah. So it's, to the North Pole I went with a friend, Børge Ousland. Uh, to the South Pole, um, um, um, the goal was to be the first in the world doing it alone. Uh-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 48:01 And you did that

Erling Kagge 48:02 I did that, yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 48:03 Are you in the Guinness World Book of Records?

Erling Kagge 48:05 Yeah. Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 48:06 I'm gonna have to tell my son. He'll be... He's lovely.

Erling Kagge 48:08 [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 48:08 He, he'll be so excited. He's been obsessed-

Erling Kagge 48:10 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 48:11 ... with that book since he was a kid.

Erling Kagge 48:12 [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 48:12 Like each year wanting to see who's in it. I, I, I don't think I asked you this before. Why did you throw the batteries out on the plane, right? Is it because you didn't trust yourself? You thought, "If the batteries are in, I'll use the radio."

Erling Kagge 48:25 Yeah. I want to be not able to talk on the radio because of course if you keep in mind all the time that I have a possibility-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 48:34 Yeah

Erling Kagge 48:35 ... to turn on the radio, even if I'm... You know, I would have been disciplined on this expedition. I- in hindsight, I'm 100% sure or 99% sure-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 48:45 But you'd still be tempted

Erling Kagge 48:46 ... exactly, and you have it in back of your head, it's a possibility.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 48:49 Well, it's really interesting that because, um, there's been lots of studies which show that even if your smartphone is on the table there, you don't have it in your hands-Some studies have shown that you are using cognitive willpower to not pick that phone up.

Erling Kagge 49:04 Exactly.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 49:05 So having it there is not neutral.

Erling Kagge 49:07 No.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 49:07 Right?

Erling Kagge 49:07 No.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 49:07 You're constantly-- Your brain is going, "No, I'm not picking it up."

Erling Kagge 49:09 No, no.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 49:09 "I'm not picking it up," right?

Erling Kagge 49:11 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 49:11 Which is why for many people, the best thing to do in the evening for sleep is charge your phone in a different room.

Erling Kagge 49:17 Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 49:17 Because if it's in that room, you, you just... Even if you don't pick it up, you're using up energy to not.

Erling Kagge 49:23 Absolutely. Absolutely.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 49:24 So I, I love that. To make sure you're taking action after watching this video, I've created a free guide to help you build healthy habits. We can all make short-term change, but can those changes become a fundamental part of our life? Often they don't, and that's why in this free guide, I share with you the six crucial steps you need to take. They're really, really effective. If you wanna get hold of that free guide right now, all you have to do is click the link in the description box below.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 49:56 The, the other thing I wanted to ask about the South Pole in particular, after 50 days of complete silence, you mentioned it took a couple of days-

Erling Kagge 50:05 Mm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 50:05 ... to get in, but once you were in, you didn't wanna talk to anyone.

Erling Kagge 50:09 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 50:10 Do you remember the first conversation you had with another human once you'd finished?

Erling Kagge 50:15 [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 50:15 And what was that like?

Erling Kagge 50:16 I remember it really well actually, because unfortunately, I wrote it down because, you know, memory is a tricky thing. Um, so I, I got to the South Pole. The Americans had built a base at the South Pole. Um, and of course, no one expected me.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 50:33 Why not?

Erling Kagge 50:33 Because, you know, they knew I was walking towards the Nor- the Pole, but, uh, uh, they didn't know where I was, so what kind of progress I had and, uh, and... or if I was going to make it. So I walked in, I saw the base at a distance, walked towards the, you know, the point where it's just kind of marked, "This is the real South Pole." And some Americans came out to the base [laughs] and, and they, and they said, just like if I should have met them in Central Park, like, you know, "How are you?" And I said, "Like a pig in shit." [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 51:10 [laughs]

Erling Kagge 51:11 And they were kind of... You know, they didn't even laugh. They just kind of, "Ugh, you know, what's this?" And of course, I had, had the same underwear on for 50 days and... 50 days and 50 nights without taking it off once. So I was like a pig in shit.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 51:27 That- those words from... You said there were some Americans there.

Erling Kagge 51:30 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 51:30 So it wasn't just one person, it was several people.

Erling Kagge 51:32 Oh, it was a coup- couple of scientists or, you know, people walking, uh, working on the base coming out.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 51:36 Okay. So-

Erling Kagge 51:37 Very nice people

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 51:37 ... what I'm trying to, uh, really understand is when you've had all this silence and all you've heard is nature. Were there, were there animals-

Erling Kagge 51:44 Mm. Mm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 51:44 ... around?

Erling Kagge 51:45 No animals.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 51:46 No animals-

Erling Kagge 51:46 No

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 51:46 ... 'cause it's that cold.

Erling Kagge 51:47 Yeah. It's... No, but also, like, uh, animals on the, uh, on the coast, but as soon as you're off the coast, there's no animals.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 51:55 Okay. So you... When, when we say you were alone-

Erling Kagge 51:58 Mm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 51:58 ... you really were alone. [laughs]

Erling Kagge 52:00 Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 52:00 Right?

Erling Kagge 52:00 I didn't see any life at all.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 52:03 So, okay.

Erling Kagge 52:03 Not even a bird.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 52:04 So let's say someone's done a prolonged fast-

Erling Kagge 52:07 Mm-hmm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 52:07 ... like a 48-hour fast.

Erling Kagge 52:08 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 52:08 Whatever reason they might-

Erling Kagge 52:09 Mm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 52:09 ... choose to do that.

Erling Kagge 52:10 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 52:10 From foods. We know that you've gotta, um... You can't just suddenly have a full meal, right?

Erling Kagge 52:17 No.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 52:17 You have to slowly-

Erling Kagge 52:18 Yeah, yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 52:18 ... introduce food, right? Um, it sounds like you didn't have that slow introduction. [laughs] It sounded like you had-

Erling Kagge 52:24 No

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 52:24 ... two very excited Americans-

Erling Kagge 52:26 Mm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 52:26 ... to see you.

Erling Kagge 52:26 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 52:28 I, I, I guess I'm trying to understand, what was that like? Was it quite abrasive to your ears-

Erling Kagge 52:32 Yes

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 52:32 ... because you'd had all that silence?

Erling Kagge 52:33 Yeah. It's, um, uh... It took me a while to adapt, actually. Um, the peop- the Americans at the base were super nice. They offered me a bunk to sleep. I think I maybe I slept a little bit, but I kept... I pitched my tent outside the base and also s- you know, k- spent time in my tent, uh, because to get back to civilization was brutal.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 52:57 Why?

Erling Kagge 52:57 And because in reality, you know, as I said earlier on, I didn't really miss that much, uh, being alone. Uh, and I had... I consider myself to be a social person, more social after expedition than prior to expedition, but also think it's super healthy, as we talked about, to spend time in solitude. Not that you have to spend 50 days and nights in solitude, but somehow you have to find your own North Pole or your own South Pole. And, uh, and when I suddenly met people, they invite me for a drink. You know, they offered me meals. They asked me to do a, a little talk about my expedition to people, you know, staying at the base. All this was s- very, very strange and, uh-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 53:41 Mm

Erling Kagge 53:41 ... also frustrating. I remember I had some really severe s- pain in my stomach, really painful in my stomach, and that was, of course, because I was frustrated. I found it, you know, difficult to relate to all these people.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 53:56 Wow.

Erling Kagge 53:57 And then, you know, today, when people walk alone in nature, usually they will have a phone, and then it's easy to believe it's easier with the phone than without the phone. Um, my experience is the opposite because if you have the phone and you talk every evening before you go to sleep, you talk, if you have a wife or a boyfriend or a husband, whatever, you talk to your partner every evening. You have to listen to, you know, your partner saying, "I love you. I miss you." And if the person doesn't say it, you get suspicious, and you have to say, "I love you. I'm missing you," every evening. And then after three weeks, your partner will say something like, "You know, the washing machine broke down today." [laughs] And then you might as well just go home because what you want to experience, uh, on a certain expedition is the solitude, is to have to face yourself, which is difficult. You have to look yourself somehow, not li- literally, but like, you know, you have to look, face yourself into the eyes. Like, you know, "Who am I? What am I doing? Why am I doing this?" Uh, you know, "What are the..." As I said, "What are the meanings in life?" Not that you get into kind of any deep-Kind of, you know, heavy duty conclusions, but, you know, you have to live it through, you have to think it through. And if you disturb every day, uh, by the outside world, to me, you know, parts of the meaning or parts of the meanings are, are, uh, some of the meanings are gone. So I think in that sense, I think, you know, it's easier for me in the old days to do it in solitude-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 55:43 Yeah

Erling Kagge 55:43 ... in silence than many people doing it today.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 55:48 Did you have kids when you went on these expeditions?

Erling Kagge 55:49 I didn't have kids at that time, no.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 55:51 For both those expeditions?

Erling Kagge 55:52 Yeah. Uh, I got kids later, but I still have done some expeditions after I got kids. Uh, but, uh, less, less risk. Less risk.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 56:02 Less risk.

Erling Kagge 56:02 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 56:02 So your, so your, uh, attitude to risk changed after becoming a father?

Erling Kagge 56:07 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 56:10 Also, I'm fascinated by solitude and silence.

Erling Kagge 56:14 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 56:14 And something I've always wanted to do is one of these one-week silent retreats.

Erling Kagge 56:20 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 56:20 You do these silent meditations where-

Erling Kagge 56:22 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 56:22 ... you don't talk.

Erling Kagge 56:23 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 56:23 Right? And then I tell you where my head goes. My head goes, "I've still got young kids. Should I do that? Like, can I... You know, is it selfish to do that and for my children to not see me or hear from me for seven days?" Now, I think you can argue this a whole variety of different ways, but I'd love your perspective on this. Is it selfish to go away and find yourself in silence when you've got dependents?

Erling Kagge 56:54 Not at all. [laughs] It's egocentric for sure, uh, but not selfish. I find selfish to be a very negative, uh, word. It's, uh... But you know, for your kids and in this case your wife, maybe it's really good for them that you're away for a week. You know, they get a little bit rest from you. Maybe you can contribute a little bit before and after, and you will come back not as a different person, but a little bit different person.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 57:25 Mm.

Erling Kagge 57:25 You'll probably come back as a nicer person, a more caring person, a little bit wiser person. Um, so I think it's a g- I think it's a good idea. Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 57:34 You, you said it's egocentric, but is it egocentric, right? If, like, you know... You're making the case, right? So the, some of the ideas I've written down, right, um, that you've written about in all your books. "Silence is not emptiness but a gateway to self-discovery."

Erling Kagge 57:49 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 57:50 "True adventure happens within. Solitude builds resilience and inner strength. Um, stillness and patience reveal what truly matters. Your best ideas emerge in solitude. The world disappears when you immerse yourself in the present." These are things that I've written down from your books, right?

Erling Kagge 58:10 [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 58:10 So let's go back to this idea that it's egocentric.

Erling Kagge 58:13 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 58:13 I want to challenge that and go-

Erling Kagge 58:15 Mm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 58:15 ... well, hold on a minute. If going away for a week gives you all these things, if... You know, there's a phrase, isn't there, "Absence makes the heart grow fonder," right?

Erling Kagge 58:25 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 58:26 Um, one of the things people struggle with in-

Erling Kagge 58:28 It, it, it should grow fonder

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 58:29 ... It should do. But one of the things people struggle with in the COVID lockdowns-

Erling Kagge 58:34 Mm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 58:34 ... um, was that they were, they were with their partners all the time, right?

Erling Kagge 58:38 Yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 58:38 There wasn't any absence there-

Erling Kagge 58:40 Mm-hmm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 58:40 ... and it was getting frustrating for many people.

Erling Kagge 58:42 Of course.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 58:42 Right?

Erling Kagge 58:42 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 58:43 But I, I guess I'm trying to make the case to you, and you're someone who's done this, that it's not egocentric, that actually the selfish thing is sometimes the most selfless thing. If you come back as a better human being-

Erling Kagge 58:56 Mm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 58:56 ... who's calmer, who's more present, who has a greater appreciation-

Erling Kagge 59:01 Mm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 59:01 ... of your wife, of your children-

Erling Kagge 59:03 Mm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 59:04 ... of what truly matters-

Erling Kagge 59:06 Mm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 59:06 ... is it really egocentric?

Erling Kagge 59:09 The way you put it, no. Uh, but then again, you know, your wife or, you know, anyone's partner has to have a kind of a generous attitude to think it's a good idea their partner goes away to be by themself and nurture their own soul and, uh, and enrich their lives. So you need some generosity there, and you need to come back as a different, in a positive way, person.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 59:38 Yeah.

Erling Kagge 59:38 But then again, I think, you know, for most people, um, you know, if that one party goes away for a week, do this, no problem at all. Again, we're underestimating ourselves.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 59:51 Yeah.

Erling Kagge 59:51 And I think, you know, it's... You should be... I think, you know, uh, almost every relationship, partnership would be much better if they, you know, allow that kind of space for the, for the other party.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:00:02 Yeah.

Erling Kagge 1:00:02 And I, you know, for me, I, you know, I, I wanted my partner to be away for a week or two weeks or four weeks to experience what we're talking about because I want her back again as a, you know, even greater person.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:00:17 You know, last November, just to be clear, I didn't do any meditation retreats or I didn't hike to anywhere exciting.

Erling Kagge 1:00:24 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:00:24 I went to- uh, for two weeks to America-

Erling Kagge 1:00:27 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:00:27 ... 10 days in LA, three, four days in Austin-

Erling Kagge 1:00:29 Mm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:00:29 ... to do interviews around my, my last book, right?

Erling Kagge 1:00:33 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:00:33 So I was quite busy-

Erling Kagge 1:00:34 Mm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:00:34 ... and exploring these ideas on microphones on, on different shows. But even that, when I came home, I had a newfound appreciation for my life.

Erling Kagge 1:00:46 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:00:47 I, I really had a newfound appreciation for my wife, for my children, for the house in which I live.

Erling Kagge 1:00:52 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:00:53 And so I think there is something quite powerful here, even if you're not doing some wild-

Erling Kagge 1:00:57 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:00:57 ... hike and going to the ends of the earth.

Erling Kagge 1:00:59 Absolutely. Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:00:59 Right? So let's just land this silence plane for people-

Erling Kagge 1:01:03 Mm. Mm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:01:04 ... and before we move on to the North Pole, right? You don't need to go to the North Pole to find silence.

Erling Kagge 1:01:10 Absolutely not.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:01:11 So how can someone who's listening to this, who considers themselves very busy, who says, "I don't have time, Erling-How can I get silence in my everyday life? What, what do you say to them?

Erling Kagge 1:01:22 Mm, first of all, you're wrong. You have time. Uh, maybe not much time, but everyone has five or 50 minutes for silence. Um, and keep in mind that the most important silence is within. I think, you know, we can be standing at the busiest crossroad in the UK, at Piccadilly Circus in London, and you can still find and discover and rediscover your own inner silence. It's there all the time waiting for you to explore it. So... And then it's a cliche, but, you know, you need to leave your phone somehow. You need to relax. You can walk, you can sit down, and, uh, you can stand in the shower. You can do... walk the stairs instead of taking the lift. You can walk to three stations, uh, uh, on the metro instead of taking the metro, and you will discover inner silence. And as I said earlier on, to begin with, it's quite often uncomfortable. That's why people avoid it.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:02:25 Yeah. There- there's something quite interesting about this external silence versus the internal silence, right? So as you said there, you can be in a busy place but still connect with that inner silence-

Erling Kagge 1:02:38 Mm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:02:38 ... that's always there. At the same time, we can contrast that with you on these expeditions, where there is silence all around you, but for the first two to three days-

Erling Kagge 1:02:47 Mm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:02:48 ... you have no inner silence.

Erling Kagge 1:02:49 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:02:49 Right? There's all this noise.

Erling Kagge 1:02:50 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:02:50 Right?

Erling Kagge 1:02:50 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:02:50 So I think that's quite a beautiful concept for us to think about.

Erling Kagge 1:02:54 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:02:54 External silence versus inner silence.

Erling Kagge 1:02:58 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:02:58 And yeah, I completely agree. I mean, I think, you know, walking is one of those interesting ones where through the motion of movement, al- although it's not still because you're moving, you can become still on the inside, can't you, through the movement?

Erling Kagge 1:03:14 Absolutely. Absolutely. So, you know, that's, I think, really important to keep in mind.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:03:19 Yeah.

Erling Kagge 1:03:19 The silence is there all the time.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:03:21 Yeah.

Erling Kagge 1:03:23 And, and also important to keep in mind that your silence is different from my silence. We all have our own silences.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:03:30 Yeah.

Erling Kagge 1:03:30 And the reason because, of course, silence is you, so it has to be, has to be different. And, uh, yeah, and also, like, you know, walking, it's like Hippocrates, the founder of modern medicine, you know, his advice was... Advice number one was, to have a healthy life, was walk. D- Take a walk. Um, and of course, at that time it was healthier for your body, but also healthier for your soul. Uh, you were in silence. And if you don't feel better after one walk, advice number two was take another walk.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:04:05 [laughs]

Erling Kagge 1:04:06 And his third advice was, "Whatever you do, make sure the doctor doesn't give you the wrong medicines."

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:04:13 Yeah.

Erling Kagge 1:04:14 And it holds up after more than 2,000 years.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:04:16 Yeah, he knew what he was talking about, for sure.

Erling Kagge 1:04:18 Yeah. I think all wisdom that had lasted for more than 1,000 years-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:04:22 Yeah

Erling Kagge 1:04:22 ... you should take it really seriously.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:04:24 Now, you've also said something in this conversation that I'm gonna challenge.

Erling Kagge 1:04:27 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:04:28 Okay?

Erling Kagge 1:04:28 That's good. [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:04:29 In a, in a, in a good way, right?

Erling Kagge 1:04:31 Yeah. [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:04:31 You said, "You know, when we go to silence, you know, we learn things about ourself, but nothing that profound." And I thought, "Wait a minute."

Erling Kagge 1:04:36 [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:04:36 Right? Wait a minute. You know, you're an explorer, but I would argue you're a deep thinker. You're a philosopher.

Erling Kagge 1:04:44 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:04:44 Because the wisdom in these books is really quite profound. So you sent me your very latest book last week, right? Not only has it got this gorgeous cover-

Erling Kagge 1:04:56 Mm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:04:56 ... that's you, isn't it?

Erling Kagge 1:04:57 That's me taking a photo of my partner, Børge, walking towards the North Pole.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:05:01 Yeah. What's interesting, when you look at this cover-

Erling Kagge 1:05:03 Mm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:05:03 ... it looks... For me, I thought, "Oh, wait a minute. I thought he was skiing." I thought, "This looks like it's water and an ocean."

Erling Kagge 1:05:08 Yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:05:08 But then I thought, "Oh, this is ice."

Erling Kagge 1:05:10 It's ice, ice floating on the ocean.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:05:13 Yeah. It's a pretty incredible photo-

Erling Kagge 1:05:15 Mm-hmm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:05:15 ... first of all. But the foreword to the book is, like... Y- I don't know. I mean, you maybe can't say it about yourself. I'm gonna say it for you. It is just wisdom. Every single word is just-

Erling Kagge 1:05:29 Thank you

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:05:29 ... almost like this deep, deep wisdom-

Erling Kagge 1:05:31 Mm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:05:31 ... that you've compressed into a foreword. Right. So this is what I'm gonna challenge you on, right?

Erling Kagge 1:05:37 [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:05:39 You have discovered some quite profound things.

Erling Kagge 1:05:42 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:05:42 You say, "Oh, well," you know, "you learn a few things about yourself." No, I think you've [laughs] I think you've learnt the secret to life.

Erling Kagge 1:05:48 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:05:48 Right? And you finish the foreword with this. Do you mind if I read it to you?

Erling Kagge 1:05:51 Uh, uh, please do. Uh.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:05:53 Okay. I, I've underlined the last time. I'm gonna read the whole last paragraph, okay? "I have walked, skied, climbed, and sailed in many parts of the world. I've been able to compare all the mountains, plateaus, forests, plains, and oceans I have seen with somewhere else. But I've only experienced one place that is unlike anywhere else, the North Pole, because when I finally got there, I realized there was no there there."

Erling Kagge 1:06:26 [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:06:28 I mean, come on, Erling.

Erling Kagge 1:06:30 [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:06:30 If that isn't the secret to life, what is?

Erling Kagge 1:06:32 [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:06:32 It's... The, the destination doesn't exist.

Erling Kagge 1:06:36 No.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:06:36 Success doesn't exist. It's all the s- It's... Like, can you just elaborate what you mean by that? When you got there, you realized there was no there.

Erling Kagge 1:06:44 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:06:45 What does that mean?

Erling Kagge 1:06:47 Uh, it means, uh, you know, it, it, uh, means many thing. It means that, um, you know, uh, the banal thing is, uh... But of course, if you take the banal seriously, it's, it's, it's not banal anymore. But the banal is, uh, um... I had this huge obsession... Of course, being an explorer, you need to be obsessed. I had this huge obsession, uh, to get with Børge and many other people, uh, to get to the North Pole, to walk all the way to the North Pole. And, and, uh, of course, we're all born explorers. Uh-Every baby is an explorer in their mind. If you look at a baby, uh, first thing a baby will do, uh, is to stretch out the arms, stretch out the legs in four different directions and shriek for space and air.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:07:36 Yeah.

Erling Kagge 1:07:37 And then after a year, the same baby will leave the house and start to wonder what's, what's between he or she and the horizon. So that's kind of how we were born. That spirit never goes away. It can be somewhere between 0.1 and 99.9. It's all degrees, so it's like, you know, as long as you're alive, you have this spirit of exploration. But for me, of course, it was super strong. Um, and we had this dream. We prepared for years, uh, to get to the North Pole. We walked for 58 days, um, and suffering a lot, starving, being exhausted, frostbites, and it was my whole life. It was like a true love story. I was totally in love with the idea of getting to the North Pole. And when we eventually got there, it was nothing there. There's no there there. And it was just floating ice. The Arctic Ocean is the fifth biggest ocean in the world, covered by ice mostly, some open leads. The colors are variations of gray, white, and blue, and then the horizon.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:08:49 Mm-hmm.

Erling Kagge 1:08:50 And it's almost exactly the same what you see at the North Pole as the sea a couple hundred kilometers away. So it's just, it's just an idea. I mean, you stand at the Pole, a few hours later, because the ice is moving all the time, you are somewhere else. But what's special with the North Pole is many things. It's on top of the globe. The wind comes from the south. It's blowing towards the south. Um, all the longitudes come together at the top of the, top of the world. So it doesn't really have a position. It has latitudes, but doesn't have a position because it doesn't have a longitude. Uh, the sun has the same angle above the horizon for 24 hours, and it goes up or down above the horizon. And you have, of course, one day and one night in one year. So you have six months of sun, six months of darkness at the North Pole. So it is a place of mystery. It has always been a place of mystery, all the way from prehistoric times when people start to speculate about the North Pole. It was mysterious. But still today, uh, later today, if you check Google Maps, Google World Map, you will see that the North Pole is not on the map because they're not able to... The algorithms and engineers at Google, they're not able to get the North Pole on the map.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:10:14 Why?

Erling Kagge 1:10:15 Because the globe, of course, is three-dimensional and, and, and the map is a abstraction of the world. It's flat, so it's only two-dimensional.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:10:24 Yeah.

Erling Kagge 1:10:24 And then they're not able to, you know, figure out so far, maybe one day they will, how to, you know, how to put a point on the Earth or the two points of the Earth, the North Pole, the South Pole, where all the longitudes come together. So it's, it just remains very elusive, and that's also why, you know, I wrote this in the foreword. Um, when I got there, we, Børge and I, we kind of rediscovered the North Pole. Um, it was nothing there there, no.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:10:59 It, it seems to be a metaphor for many different things.

Erling Kagge 1:11:02 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:11:03 Like, we know this classic story of hedonic adaptation with humans where we think that getting the promotion is gonna make us feel good. Then you work hard, you work hard, you work hard.

Erling Kagge 1:11:14 Oh, yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:11:14 You get the promotion, and then it's like, "Oh, oh."

Erling Kagge 1:11:17 It feels good for a while, though. Good for a few minutes or hours or days. Oh.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:11:21 Yeah.

Erling Kagge 1:11:22 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:11:22 But not for a few weeks-

Erling Kagge 1:11:23 No

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:11:23 ... or a few months usually for most people, for most things.

Erling Kagge 1:11:27 [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:11:28 And that's why I think that final word of the foreword-

Erling Kagge 1:11:30 Mm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:11:30 ... is, is just so profound. "When I finally got there, I realized there was no there there."

Erling Kagge 1:11:35 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:11:35 It's that whole ancient philosophical idea of journey over destination.

Erling Kagge 1:11:44 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:11:45 Process over outcome.

Erling Kagge 1:11:47 Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:11:47 Right? Everywhere you go, but I'd never thought about it through the lens of the North Pole, right?

Erling Kagge 1:11:51 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:11:51 So [laughs] uh, for the last few mornings at breakfast, I've been relaying something-

Erling Kagge 1:11:57 [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:11:57 ... from this book to my children. I'm like, "Guys, you, you'll never believe what I read last night, okay?"

Erling Kagge 1:12:00 [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:12:01 So I'll tell you this morning what I was relaying to them is the bit that you just mentioned about these all, all the lines of longitude meet there, which I never really thought about. So this idea that [laughs] you're at the North Pole and you can literally walk around following the sun-

Erling Kagge 1:12:17 Mm-hmm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:12:18 ... and you are literally traveling through time.

Erling Kagge 1:12:21 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:12:21 I was saying to them, "You know, he can just walk a few..." And-

Erling Kagge 1:12:24 Half a, half a minute to travel the world and a f- 24 hours time zone.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:12:30 Yeah. So he can go into yesterday.

Erling Kagge 1:12:33 Exactly.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:12:33 And he can go forward.

Erling Kagge 1:12:34 Yeah, in the same minute.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:12:36 Right, but then that plays into what we were talking about before, right? About time.

Erling Kagge 1:12:41 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:12:42 Right? Time, calendar time, um, clock time is a human construct.

Erling Kagge 1:12:47 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:12:47 'Cause of course you're a human being at this point in Earth, and you're just walking, but we're saying it's time travel because you're walking through different lines of longitudes that we as humans have specified. But it's not real.

Erling Kagge 1:13:07 No.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:13:07 It's a human construct.

Erling Kagge 1:13:08 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:13:09 It-

Erling Kagge 1:13:10 And it's, it's counter to how, you know, what we experience.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:13:14 Yeah. Well, and it goes back to walking.

Erling Kagge 1:13:15 Mm. Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:13:15 You know, walking changes your perception-

Erling Kagge 1:13:18 Mm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:13:18 ... of time and the environment around you.

Erling Kagge 1:13:19 Mm. Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:13:20 Right? And I mean, it's [laughs] It, it's really quite something, isn't it? I mean, what you, you said in the kitchen, you said, you know, we, we, we assume these things, we say these things, the sun always rises in the east.

Erling Kagge 1:13:31 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:13:32 And you're saying that's not true.

Erling Kagge 1:13:33 It's just not true because, you know, it's... People have this kind of idea that what has happened so far every day or every week or every hour in my life will, you know, keep on happening, and the most common example is the sun will always rise in, in the east. But when you're at the North Pole, close to the North Pole or the South Pole, as I said, the sun neither rises or sets, or it does it o- once a year. So it's not true. It doesn't rise every morning from the east. And if you're in space, you can have, you know, 16 sunrises in 24 hours. So, um, yeah, so it's this thing with time is, is being linear. You know, it's a good idea for every country's gross national product that people, you know, have a watch and appear at the office or wherever you work every day at the right time. So I'm not negative to it, but then again, I think, you know, just to be aware of what you're saying, that time is not linear.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:14:38 Yeah.

Erling Kagge 1:14:39 It's really important.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:14:41 Hey guys, I really hope you're finding this useful. If you are and you want more content like it, please do check out my book, Make Change That Lasts: Nine Simple Ways to Break Free from the Habits That are Holding You Back. It's in all the usual places as a paperback, e-book, and as an audiobook, which I'm narrating. Now, back to the video. There's no clocks in the studio.

Erling Kagge 1:15:06 No.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:15:07 That's all done intentionally.

Erling Kagge 1:15:09 Oh.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:15:09 You know, and I didn't think about it through the lens of the North Pole and what you write about, but that whole thing about solitude and silence and how when you go to the South Pole, it's gonna take two or three days for the noise to switch off in your mind before you can access the inner silence.

Erling Kagge 1:15:25 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:15:25 Those kids with the smartphones, the first two to three days without them and their laptops, they're a bit tense before they can feel the calm.

Erling Kagge 1:15:34 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:15:34 I kinda feel that's how I see this podcast in many ways.

Erling Kagge 1:15:39 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:15:39 That's why I believe long form conversation is so important, right? Because I think what happens at the start, let's say we talk for two hours.

Erling Kagge 1:15:50 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:15:50 I would say for the first 20 minutes, we're both aware there's a mic on-

Erling Kagge 1:15:53 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:15:54 ... and we're recording. But-

Erling Kagge 1:15:55 And I'm, and I'm a little bit nervous. Uh, not nervous, but like, you know, yeah-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:15:59 Yeah, but at some point-

Erling Kagge 1:16:00 ... a little bit, yeah. You're loosening up

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:16:01 ... we just forgot-

Erling Kagge 1:16:03 Yeah, yeah, yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:16:03 ... and we're just chatting as if we're just-

Erling Kagge 1:16:04 Yeah, yeah, yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:16:04 ... having coffee together, right?

Erling Kagge 1:16:06 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:16:06 It's the same principle.

Erling Kagge 1:16:08 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:16:08 And i- I saw this tweet yesterday, uh, on X about, um... It was about books, saying, "What's the point in books? Just get AI to give you a summary," right? So you know the key points.

Erling Kagge 1:16:21 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:16:22 But the tweet was brilliant 'cause the guy was saying that, yeah, but that's if you believe that the only thing that's important about a book is the information that it gives you-

Erling Kagge 1:16:31 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:16:32 ... which it isn't. It's the experience, right? It's, it's the journey you go on as you acquire-

Erling Kagge 1:16:38 Right

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:16:38 ... that information. And so through the lens of this podcast, it's not about the information you get directly. Someone out at the moment is out on a long run or a walk listening to this conversation.

Erling Kagge 1:16:51 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:16:52 And I think the power is the insights that they get about their life through us having a conversation rather than me delivering or you delivering direct actionable insights.

Erling Kagge 1:17:04 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:17:04 It's the journey they go on.

Erling Kagge 1:17:06 Absolutely.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:17:06 Do you know what I mean?

Erling Kagge 1:17:07 Absolutely. And this is again, you know, what we talked about a little bit before today is about li- making life a little bit more difficult.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:17:16 Mm.

Erling Kagge 1:17:16 Because you can, you can have a novel, you're curious about the novel, maybe at school you have to do something, you're going to a dinner party, you want to talk about the book or a book club, whatever, reading circle, and you get the extract through AI or Wikipedia, whatever. That's the easy one. But if you ac- actually have to sit down and spend five evenings reading the same book-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:17:38 Mm

Erling Kagge 1:17:38 ... then you really benefit from reading the book.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:17:40 Yeah.

Erling Kagge 1:17:41 So it's a little bit more difficult, time-consuming, but, you know, it's, it's the only meaning- meaningful way to go.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:17:49 I wanna talk about polar bears-

Erling Kagge 1:17:50 Mm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:17:50 ... and fear.

Erling Kagge 1:17:51 [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:17:52 Okay? So this is another story-

Erling Kagge 1:17:53 All right

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:17:53 ... I've been talking to the kids about. So, when you were relaying, um, your expedition to the South Pole earlier on today-

Erling Kagge 1:18:04 Mm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:18:05 ... you said something which you wrote about on the North Pole as well, which I found just profound, this idea that after a few days, there's no separation anymore between you and the environment.

Erling Kagge 1:18:17 No.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:18:17 You become the environment.

Erling Kagge 1:18:18 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:18:20 And of course, many of us never experience that. I'm sure a lot of ultra runners, you know, you know, long distance running is, is, is growing in popularity.

Erling Kagge 1:18:28 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:18:28 And I, I'm sure one of the reasons why is you start to escape life a little bit and you start to connect-

Erling Kagge 1:18:34 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:18:34 ... with parts of yourself that you just don't get to connect with-

Erling Kagge 1:18:37 Mm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:18:37 ... in your day-to-day life.

Erling Kagge 1:18:38 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:18:39 But of course, that can be a long walk or whatever it might be, right? But you also said that you don't feel fear because you're part of the environment-

Erling Kagge 1:18:49 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:18:49 ... or something to that effect. So I, I found that really interesting.

Erling Kagge 1:18:51 Much, much, much less fear because, um, like climbing Everest, kind of almost falling off a cliff, but it's just still a part of you. So you kind of, you know, you just kind of, it's kind of organic, the whole thing, you and the nature, every- you know, it's like if my mother had seen me walking to the North Pole, uh, uh, crossing a huge open lead in the ice-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:19:16 What's an open lead?

Erling Kagge 1:19:17 A open lead, like, uh, the ice is breaking apart, and then you have water, open water between two ice floes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:19:23 Oh, wow.

Erling Kagge 1:19:24 And it's, the ocean is 3,000 meters deep, so if you fall into the water with a sled, you're in deep shit. And then, you know, you just-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:19:32 I.e. dead

Erling Kagge 1:19:33 At least it's, you know, it's, it's really dangerous. But then because you're part of the ice, you're part of the snow, you're part of the wind, you're part of the water, it's, it's, uh, you kind of feel comfortable. Uh, but if my mother had seen me, you know, f- almost falling off a cliff at Everest or clo- crossing this open water, uh, towards the North Pole, she would be scared like shit. Uh, but when you're there, you're calm. And it's important that polar explorers not going to the North Pole because they don't have fear. They're doing it despite the fear. Of course, everyone has fear about this kind of environment, but then the fear kind of slowly disappears.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:20:19 I love talking to people like you or monks or people who've gone to these sort of so-called extremes of life because I think that's where we learn the real truth about what it is to be a human being.

Erling Kagge 1:20:28 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:20:29 Right? So I've spoken to many monks on this podcast over the years. I, I love chatting to monks-

Erling Kagge 1:20:34 Mm-hmm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:20:34 ... I've realized.

Erling Kagge 1:20:35 You know, we should, we should, you know, maybe we c- you know, m- maybe not become monks, but it's something really-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:20:39 No, but, but when they go away-

Erling Kagge 1:20:40 ... deeply attractive. Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:20:41 ... they, when they leave the kind of routine and hecticness of-

Erling Kagge 1:20:46 Mm-hmm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:20:46 ... day-to-day life and, and sit in silence, right-

Erling Kagge 1:20:51 Mm-hmm, mm-hmm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:20:51 ... with their routines and rituals, I think they discover things that we can learn without needing to go to a monastery, right?

Erling Kagge 1:20:56 Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:20:57 And I think through your journey, we can learn things that we can apply in our life without needing to go to the North Pole or the South Pole-

Erling Kagge 1:21:04 Yeah. Mm-hmm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:21:05 ... right? But this idea that we can be at one with our environment is something that spiritual teachers will talk about-

Erling Kagge 1:21:13 Mm-hmm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:21:13 ... that we are one, we're not separate.

Erling Kagge 1:21:15 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:21:15 Right? But I've never heard an explorer talk about it like that, so that's-

Erling Kagge 1:21:19 Mm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:21:19 ... really interesting to me. And then relaying that to a polar bear-

Erling Kagge 1:21:23 Mm-hmm, mm-hmm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:21:24 ... I'd love you to tell us about your experience with a polar bear and shooting a polar bear.

Erling Kagge 1:21:29 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:21:30 But also, you write later on in the book about other explorers. Uh, I think it was a pair who went, and they reported shooting a polar bear who was atta- uh, which was, uh, primed to attack them.

Erling Kagge 1:21:44 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:21:45 And you actually talk about this description when you're reading about the, the other explorers, that it sounds as though they were really calm. It's almost unbelievable, but you said, "I actually believe them."

Erling Kagge 1:21:55 No.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:21:55 I think they could have been this calm-

Erling Kagge 1:21:57 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:21:57 ... because they were at one with their environment.

Erling Kagge 1:21:59 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:21:59 So can you talk to me about polar bears and fear and how that all plays together?

Erling Kagge 1:22:03 Yeah. Uh, Børge and I, uh, very close to the North Pole, like 200 kilometers south of the pole, uh, suddenly I heard Børge, uh, shouting, "Hoy." And [laughs] I never heard him shout that before. So I looked up and saw this polar bear at 20, 22, 24 meters away, and it's, was t- coming towards us, stopped. And we were well prepared, so we knew how polar bears could act when they suddenly saw some people, and that's like... or a possible- something you could possibly ch- chase and eat. And, and so the bear stopped, and, and then started to walk a little bit back and forth, which we expected to do. So we dived into the sledges, found our Magnum 44s, these handguns, uh, with really short barrels because we had to save weight. It's all about saving weight because you're bringing all, everything you need for a couple of months on the sled.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:23:02 Food, everything. Right.

Erling Kagge 1:23:03 Everything.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:23:03 Wow.

Erling Kagge 1:23:03 Fuel, you know, tent, sleeping bag, mattress. Um, and then, so it was too far away for us to fire, but we knew it was going to charge because this far north, is it nothing to eat but polar explorers. So it was kind of [laughs] no doubt for us. So, but then Børge figured out, um, he was thinking National Geographic.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:23:29 [laughs]

Erling Kagge 1:23:30 [laughs] Today that sounds silly, but at the time, we read National Geographic because in the old days, that was the only information we got in Norway, most places on Earth, about expeditions, different places, you know, in caves, in the mountains, to the polar, to the poles, et cetera.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:23:45 Yeah, pre-internet, right?

Erling Kagge 1:23:46 Exactly, exactly.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:23:47 [laughs]

Erling Kagge 1:23:47 So that was huge every month to get that magazine. So i- if he, he thought, "This is my chance to get my photos published in National Geographic," while the bear was standing there around 20 meters away. So he grabbed his camera. He didn't have a film in the camera. This was the time you had to put a film in the camera. Dropped his gun, got a film into the camera, and-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:24:09 But you had a gun at the time.

Erling Kagge 1:24:11 Yeah, I had a gun, and he had a gun, but he dropped the gun, and then he talked me into standing between himself and the bear, waving [laughs] waving with a gun.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:24:20 Are you, are you scared at this point?

Erling Kagge 1:24:22 Uh, you know, it's... I don't feel any fear at all.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:24:26 Wow.

Erling Kagge 1:24:27 You're totally calm. Take the gun. But of course, I said to him, "We need to, you know, we need to shoot the bear first." And he said, "No, no, no. I take a photo like this."

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:24:36 [laughs]

Erling Kagge 1:24:36 So I stand up like this for a few seconds, take the, like this, and he take the photo with the bear in the background, and then the bear stops, turning towards us, you know, to- start to dig his four feet into the snow, lower his head, and we knew it was going to charge. And of course-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:24:50 But that's what they do. They lower their heads-

Erling Kagge 1:24:52 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:24:52 ... start digging a-

Erling Kagge 1:24:53 At least, at least, you know, that's a sure sign it's, it's going to-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:24:55 So ready to attack

Erling Kagge 1:24:56 ... kind of, kind of ready to attack, speed up towards you. And Børge, of course, dropped, uh, the camera. We jumped a little bit aside to frustrate the, uh, the bear, so we're not staying too close to each other, and we had to wait until the bear was really close.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:25:11 Why did you have to wait?

Erling Kagge 1:25:12 Because if not, we were not able to... With that short barrel and also with a handgun, it's super difficult to hit the bear.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:25:19 Is it really?

Erling Kagge 1:25:20 20 meters away, almost impossible because the bullet goes off like, you know, in circles, and then, um, uh-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:25:26 Right

Erling Kagge 1:25:26 ... not the right direction. So you have to wait this really close, and the bear can run up to 40 miles an hour, or 60 kilometers an hour. So-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:25:34 C- Can I just pause you there, right?

Erling Kagge 1:25:35 Yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:25:35 This is, this is mind-blowingly interesting-

Erling Kagge 1:25:38 Mm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:25:38 ... for me. Right. So first of all, you're saying you're feeling no fear.Right? Because you've acclimatized, you're part of the environment, you are one with everything around you. Then you see this bear, you know, and then you r- you can see that the bear is ready to attack-

Erling Kagge 1:25:54 Mm-hmm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:25:54 ... and harm you, and maybe k-

Erling Kagge 1:25:57 Not harm us. Kill us and eat us.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:25:58 Kill you and eat you. Okay.

Erling Kagge 1:25:59 No, no doubt about that.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:26:00 Okay. All right. [laughs]

Erling Kagge 1:26:01 Both, both of us. Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:26:03 And so you have to wait until they're nearby because you've only brought a magnum with you, not a rifle-

Erling Kagge 1:26:10 Yeah, yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:26:10 ... because you need to save weight.

Erling Kagge 1:26:11 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:26:12 So you can't risk shooting when it's far away.

Erling Kagge 1:26:14 No.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:26:15 Are you still feeling no fear as they're charging towards you, or a little bit? Or you just... Would you s- Would you describe it-

Erling Kagge 1:26:21 A little bit

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:26:21 ... as I'm just aware of the environment and I'm focused?

Erling Kagge 1:26:24 It's, it's, it's, um, it's, um... Børge and me, we were suppressing the fear because as soon as you feel fear, you're starting to get irrational. So you have to be super rational if a bear is going to kill you and eat you. So I didn't feel any fear. Uh, Børge didn't feel any fear. I mean, he want to take a photo, et cetera, et cetera.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:26:49 [laughs]

Erling Kagge 1:26:49 So we, we're pretty cool. Um, uh, the bear came towards us around eight meters away. We both fired.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:26:58 Eight meters?

Erling Kagge 1:26:58 Yeah. And then, you know, 35, 40 kilometers maybe an hour coming towards you. So it's, uh, it's just, you know, we ju- you have one shot each.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:27:07 Why have you only got one? Because y- if you miss-

Erling Kagge 1:27:09 Yeah, yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:27:10 ... the bear's got you.

Erling Kagge 1:27:10 Yeah, yeah. I mean, at least you have to be really qu- quick [laughs] with the trigger if you're going to have a second shot.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:27:19 And you hit the bear.

Erling Kagge 1:27:20 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:27:21 And what, the bear just falls?

Erling Kagge 1:27:22 Yeah. After a few seconds, it fell. Um, but then, then you feel the fear, the fear you had the whole time, because we were super afraid. Like, you kind of suppress all those feelings.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:27:37 Oh, to... So you can get the job done.

Erling Kagge 1:27:38 Yeah, exactly.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:27:39 You do what needs to be done.

Erling Kagge 1:27:40 Exactly. Also because, you know, we're part of everything around us, so it kind of felt just normal to... But then afterwards, then I understood, uh, I have been super afraid the whole time. So then we were shaking-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:27:54 Oh, wow

Erling Kagge 1:27:55 ... uh, for half a minute something. I got maybe a minute, and then, you know, shaking [laughs] like th- this was not... Yeah, just all, all... Like, you know, just shaking our heads because... And then we checked that the, properly that the bear was, uh, dead, and then we took photos of the bear from all angles because, uh, most people who claim to have killed a polar bear in self-defense hit it in the back, hit it in the arse, and of course that [laughs] is not really self-defense because, uh, the bear is turning a- uh, away from you. So we want to prove beyond any doubt that we hit it on the, in the chest. Uh, so-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:28:36 As, as an act of self-defense.

Erling Kagge 1:28:38 Yeah, self-defense. Because-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:28:39 And I think it's important to, to make that point-

Erling Kagge 1:28:40 Yeah, yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:28:41 ... because, and you make that in the book-

Erling Kagge 1:28:42 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:28:42 ... that you're not a fan of killing animals.

Erling Kagge 1:28:43 Not at all.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:28:44 Right.

Erling Kagge 1:28:44 I don't, I don't like to kill anything.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:28:46 Yeah. In the book, you, you write very respectfully, "I'm in their environment."

Erling Kagge 1:28:49 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:28:49 The only... So you're saying that the only reason you guys killed that bear is because if not, they would've... it would've killed you.

Erling Kagge 1:28:56 Yeah. So, so that-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:28:58 So it was self-defense.

Erling Kagge 1:28:58 Yeah. So I would never, ever killed... I don't even like to sh- you know, kill birds, grouse and, you know, shit like that.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:29:05 C- Can I just ask-

Erling Kagge 1:29:05 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:29:05 ... you know, you, you took these photos to prove-

Erling Kagge 1:29:08 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:29:08 ... that actually it was in self-defense.

Erling Kagge 1:29:10 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:29:12 You're in the middle of nowhere, right? Do you need photos to prove? Uh, what, what I'm saying is if you just moved on and continued on your expedition, would anyone have ever known?

Erling Kagge 1:29:23 No. No. And-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:29:24 So why did you then need to get evidence?

Erling Kagge 1:29:27 Um, it's, uh, it's a protected animal. Um-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:29:31 I see

Erling Kagge 1:29:32 ... and, and, uh-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:29:34 Oh, in case anyone found the dead thing later and-

Erling Kagge 1:29:36 Uh, no one, no one would find a dead animal. You know, it's way out on the ice. That was, you know, super unlikely. But, you know, it's, it's... You kill a, an, uh, a protected animal.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:29:46 You wanna do the right thing.

Erling Kagge 1:29:47 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:29:48 Yeah.

Erling Kagge 1:29:48 And, and you want it to be absolutely no doubt. It was a matter about who's having who for dinner. And even Gandhi wrote that, you know, "If a lion attacks you or your family, you should kill the ani- you should kill the lion."

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:30:01 Yeah.

Erling Kagge 1:30:02 So I think we're, you know, totally correct, like, you know, um-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:30:06 Yeah.

Erling Kagge 1:30:06 Of course, there'll always be some people who think, you know, we should, you know, let the bear [laughs] live on. Uh-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:30:11 But hold on. This, this goes back.

Erling Kagge 1:30:12 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:30:13 Wait. Th- this I think is a really interesting point-

Erling Kagge 1:30:15 Mm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:30:15 ... right, about the disconnection we have from our environment and even our food supply, right?

Erling Kagge 1:30:22 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:30:22 So... And I already... I've been thinking about this for years, but I really noticed it last summer. I've spoken about this before when I was in Kenya with my family-

Erling Kagge 1:30:32 Mm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:30:32 ... and we went on a safari.

Erling Kagge 1:30:34 That's great, huh?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:30:35 Um. [laughs]

Erling Kagge 1:30:36 Yeah. That's the best... That's, uh, one of the best vacations I ever had with my kids.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:30:39 Just I was scared-

Erling Kagge 1:30:40 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:30:40 ... before going-

Erling Kagge 1:30:41 Oh

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:30:41 ... to be clear, but it was life-changing.

Erling Kagge 1:30:42 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:30:42 And just to see the wild-

Erling Kagge 1:30:46 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:30:47 ... and the circle of life-

Erling Kagge 1:30:49 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:30:49 ... and how it actually occurs in nature. I don't know, it was, I guess to someone who's grown up with this stuff, they might find it quite obvious. To me, it was really was quite profound-

Erling Kagge 1:30:56 Mm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:30:56 ... to go, "Oh, I kinda get it." You know? And, and you're saying you're in that environment where that you... It's, it's who's eating who for dinner.

Erling Kagge 1:31:03 Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:31:03 But okay, so you take photos to prove should anyone ask you that this was in self-defense.

Erling Kagge 1:31:08 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:31:09 And then it was quite interesting that... 'Cause you guys are really hungry all the time, right?

Erling Kagge 1:31:14 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:31:15 Um, but you didn't... So tell me about-

Erling Kagge 1:31:18 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:31:18 ... your, your decision to not eat straight away.

Erling Kagge 1:31:21 Yeah. No, we, you know, we had 6,000 calories per day to eat, but we're still starving and we're getting thinner and thinner, and eventually, you know, the body fat is gone, and you also start to, you know, burn off m- muscle mass, which is unhealthy and also [laughs] not a good idea if you're going to ski all day. So we're really kind of down, uh, when it got close to the pole, but we want to do it unsupported, which mean- meant, like, no, uh, depots, no dogs, no air supply, like, you know, just dragging everything.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:31:53 So you did the South Pole first, right?

Erling Kagge 1:31:54 Yeah. No, first the South Pole, after the North Pole.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:31:56 Okay. So let's... So this is... How old were you when you did the North Pole?

Erling Kagge 1:31:59 27.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:32:01 Wow. I think back to what I was doing in my 20s. I think, "Wow."

Erling Kagge 1:32:04 [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:32:05 [laughs] I, w- I wasn't doing North and South Pole.

Erling Kagge 1:32:07 No.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:32:07 Um, but okay, at 27.

Erling Kagge 1:32:09 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:32:09 So you're with your buddy.

Erling Kagge 1:32:10 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:32:11 You wanna be the first pair to go to the North Pole unsupported.

Erling Kagge 1:32:15 Exactly. Pi-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:32:16 And are you in the Guinness Book of Records for that?

Erling Kagge 1:32:18 Uh, yeah, I'm pretty sure I am, yeah. Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:32:20 Great.

Erling Kagge 1:32:20 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:32:20 I love how you're not even related to that.

Erling Kagge 1:32:22 Oh, yeah, yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:32:22 You know, that's... So there is no destination.

Erling Kagge 1:32:24 I think, uh-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:32:24 There is no there, right?

Erling Kagge 1:32:25 I think I checked it when I wrote the book, actually, that, you know, it's, uh... that we are actually in the Guinness on that one, yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:32:29 Okay, so, and, and this word unsupported is key.

Erling Kagge 1:32:32 Yeah. For us it was key.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:32:34 Right.

Erling Kagge 1:32:34 Because, because at that time, National Ge- Geographic again, in three years before, four years before, this French f- uh, explorer, uh, Jean-Louis Etienne, he walked or skied to the North Pole with supplies and he said, "Maybe one day it will be possible for someone to reach the pole without all the supplies I had."

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:32:56 Right.

Erling Kagge 1:32:56 And that's when, you know, we want to do it, some Canadians want to do it, some Koreans want to do it, some Russians want to do it, and Sir Ranulph Fiennes from United Kingdom wanted to do it, so it became a kind of race to be the first to do this. And, and Ran, as we call him, uh, he's told us beforehand that, like, of course the rules are kind of unclear, so he said, uh, "If you kill an animal and eat the animal, that's a kind of support."

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:33:27 Right.

Erling Kagge 1:33:27 I disagreed. Uh, but you know, we want to have been no doubt that we have stick to, like, you know, not done anything wrong.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:33:35 Oh, so you didn't wanna risk it?

Erling Kagge 1:33:36 Exactly. So-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:33:37 So you had, you had fresh meat that would've nourished your-

Erling Kagge 1:33:40 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:33:40 ... starving body and your, um, your muscles that are starting to disintegrate-

Erling Kagge 1:33:45 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:33:46 ... because you're not feeding your body enough.

Erling Kagge 1:33:47 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:33:48 But because you wanted there to be no doubt that you got there unsupported, you chose not to eat it.

Erling Kagge 1:33:54 Yeah. We... But we took a few steaks with us, and when we got to the pole, we eat those steaks.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:34:00 Oh, so you, you did it unsupported-

Erling Kagge 1:34:02 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:34:03 ... and then-

Erling Kagge 1:34:03 But at the pole we celebrate with the bear steaks.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:34:06 Wow.

Erling Kagge 1:34:06 And, uh-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:34:07 But they didn't taste that good, did they?

Erling Kagge 1:34:08 No, no [laughs] because it's, it's-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:34:11 Y-

Erling Kagge 1:34:11 ... uh, uh, polar bears they can, you know, they can have this trichinés, this kind of parasites in the meat, and, uh, it's hard to see them and, you know, we were unsure, so we had to... We boiled the meat and we fried the meat. But at that time, we were so super hungry, starving, so we ate the meat, and afterwards all the oil that came out of the meat when we, when we cooked it-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:34:37 Yeah, that as well

Erling Kagge 1:34:37 ... we just drank it as water, kind of, you know, 100% fat. But what was interesting, again, back to, you know, what you talked about, a- about time, that when we were at the pole and when we're going to eat this kind of great meal, I want to just dig in and eat it all right away. Uh, Børge, my partner, he said, "No, let us just wait 10 seconds. Let us count to 10 slowly, and then eat." And of course then it tasted even better.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:35:10 Wow.

Erling Kagge 1:35:12 But I should also add, like, because I mentioned Ranulph Fiennes, um, uh, we were competing to the South Pole, to the North Pole, and, uh, we became kind of... We're unfriendly terms. Uh-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:35:27 Unfriendly.

Erling Kagge 1:35:28 Unfriendly, yeah, because we're competing and, and, and, um, and, uh... But then that's the beauty of life. Years pass by, and then we become friends. And I think it's important, you know, all this grudge, all this kind of, you know, whatever you have from early in life, kind of negativity to a person, get rid of it.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:35:50 Wow.

Erling Kagge 1:35:51 So with Ran too now, uh, he's not well anymore, uh, he's a legend, and when I asked him to blurb my book, you know, The North Pole, he replies within minutes, "I'd love to do it."

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:36:02 Wow. That's so lovely to hear.

Erling Kagge 1:36:04 Yeah, exactly. So, you know, you have to... You know, it's old wisdom again. You have to get on with your life. You have to move on.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:36:11 You sometimes hear this with athletes, um, who were super competitive in their careers, and then once they've retired from competing-

Erling Kagge 1:36:19 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:36:19 ... they become the best of friends.

Erling Kagge 1:36:20 Exactly. [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:36:21 Which is-

Erling Kagge 1:36:22 It's great. It's great.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:36:23 Yeah.

Erling Kagge 1:36:23 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:36:23 So while they're competing they can't be-

Erling Kagge 1:36:25 No. No

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:36:25 ... or they perceive that they can't be-

Erling Kagge 1:36:27 Mm-hmm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:36:27 ... and later they can.

Erling Kagge 1:36:28 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:36:29 There's another bit in the foreword that's really got me thinking, okay? And again, if you don't mind, I wanna read-

Erling Kagge 1:36:40 Mm-hmm. Love it

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:36:41 ... a part of it to you.

Erling Kagge 1:36:42 You know, it's always strange for an author, you maybe experienced yourself too as an author, to hear someone else is reading what you have written.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:36:50 Yeah.

Erling Kagge 1:36:51 Because I think, you know, when you write something, at least for me, um, to make it into, you know, good literature or great literature, um, you're kind of escaping yourself. So sometimes when I hear something I have written, maybe not this, you have to s- you know, have to listen first, I'm surprised that I actually written this.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:37:14 Yeah. Um, it's also, before I read this, I... It, it also reminds me of what a lot of artists say, is that when they write a song and then they release the song, the song is no longer theirs.

Erling Kagge 1:37:28 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:37:28 Right? So they had an idea in mind-

Erling Kagge 1:37:30 Mm-hmm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:37:31 ... when they wrote that song and recorded it, but a lot of artists who I follow, and I, I, I'm- I've always been fascinated by music and-

Erling Kagge 1:37:39 Mm-hmm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:37:39 ... and listening to interviews with artists, you know, "It's not mine anymore. I've realized that everyone interprets that song differently."

Erling Kagge 1:37:46 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:37:47 And I kinda feel I'm gonna read something to you now, but maybe it wasn't the way you intended it-

Erling Kagge 1:37:51 [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:37:51 ... but this is my interpretation.

Erling Kagge 1:37:53 No, no.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:37:53 Right? So here it is.

Erling Kagge 1:37:55 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:37:55 "My hope was to be respected by the person I respected most and to learn more about him, to deepen our bond-""... by freezing, starving, struggling, and experiencing great danger. My father's dark shadow loomed over my expedition, though I never told him this and find it hard to admit even to myself. Our journey," so your journey to the North Pole, "was an iteration of the oldest story in the world, the son who wants to know his father and be loved by him."

Erling Kagge 1:38:32 Yeah. That's true.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:38:35 What does that mean? Why does your desire to be loved by your father lead you to going on a life-threatening expedition to the North Pole?

Erling Kagge 1:38:43 Hmm. Um, mm, I grew up in a home when was very much of very masculine values. So for my two brothers and me, um, the huge thing, the way to get respect, uh, in the weekends and the evenings in the week was to ski far, walk far, being in nature, uh, pushing yourself, maybe putting up a record. Um, that was kind of how to get respect at home. And of course, every son, almost every son, um, I don't know anyone who doesn't, have, you know, uh, ha- has been struggling with their father. Like, the father and son relationship is the most, probably the most complicated in the world. And of course, also the father is struggling with his son or his sons. And this is like, you know... it was certainly the case in the- my household, uh, in our household, but when you look back in history, um, with the Old Testament, with the Bible, it wouldn't have been much to read in the Bible if fathers and sons had a good re- relationship. I mean, it's a, it's a kind of one clear red line through the Old Testament and the New Testament, father and son issues. And when you read... Like, I had a difficult time learning how to read and write because I was heavily dyslectic, so my mother and father, they read, uh, books for me when I was a kid, and my mother read Homer's Odyssey. And she read it for me, um, and of course, the first four parts of that book is not about, um, is, is about the son, Telemachus, who the first 20 years of his life, he has not seen his father, or maybe he saw just after he was born, like a few months. But then for 20 years, he has not known his father. And for every kid, the biggest mystery in life, or one of the biggest mysteries in life is who their parents were before they were born. And for Telemachus, it's also after he was born. So he s- leaves his home and sails the oceans to learn about his father, to see if the father is alive, to see what experience what the father has been experiencing, and maybe also, you know, um, to get to know his father. So that's one of the oldest stories ever, and, uh, to me, that's kind of the original written history on exploration. And to my great surprise, uh, when I did research on my book, um, uh, I also discovered that almost every North Pole explorer had a difficult relationship with their father, or their father disappeared.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:41:39 Wow.

Erling Kagge 1:41:39 Like with Ran, uh, his father died as, as a soldier while, uh, s- Ran was still in the womb of his mother. And I talked to Ran about this many, many, many years ago, and the way I remember the conversation was that he said he would never, ever have become an explorer if it wasn't for the loss of his father, and he had to compensate and, like, you know, live a life to kind of match his father, live up to his father's ideals. So-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:42:06 Wow

Erling Kagge 1:42:06 ... um, so that was also the case for me. Um, I had a very complicated relationship to my father. But fortunately... And, you know, a fun thing today, maybe not, not at the time, when I got home from the North Pole, Børge and I, we succeeded. We got to the Pole. It was a huge success. People are impressed because, of course, one of the many reasons you're walking to the North Pole is to get recognition. You want to impress. It's maybe not sympathetic. I don't think it's unsympathetic, but some people find it unsympathe- unsympathetic. But anyway, that's one of the reasons people are doing this. But when I met my father, he said, "I think it's ridiculous to walk to the North Pole. And by the way, your f- brother is more fit than you, so he should have done it." [laughs] But then today, uh... or, you know, some years later, uh, I forgave my father everything. He forgave me everything, and we became great friends. Unfortunately, today he's become a old man, but fortunately, he managed to read The North Pole before he got, um, too old, and he really... Like, you know, I was wondering what he would say about, you know, to read my version of this story. But fortunately, he, he, he, he, he, uh, appreciated it because, um, yeah, of course, he also found me to be a difficult person.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:43:39 Yeah. Wonder what it was like for him to read that paragraph that I just read to you.

Erling Kagge 1:43:43 Yeah. Uh, but he, I think he felt it enriching because-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:43:46 Yeah

Erling Kagge 1:43:46 ... like life kind of, his life and my life came together.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:43:49 Yeah.

Erling Kagge 1:43:49 Because my version is not that he was bad and I was good. I mean, we were two complicated persons in a family, and kind of his overview history was, of course, unique, but it's very similar to millions and millions of, you know, other stories. So I think, you know, in general, I think-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:44:09 Yeah

Erling Kagge 1:44:12 If wives or girlfriends or fiancées, whatever, use a little effort to understand this father and son relationship, they would have a better relationship quite often to their partner.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:44:28 That is so profound. I mean, there's a couple of things about that story about the father-son relationship which I think are interesting for me. One is I, I kind of feel that society very much has tried to make men and women the same.

Erling Kagge 1:44:39 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:44:40 And it was only when I became a parent that I really deeply understood that we're different.

Erling Kagge 1:44:50 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:44:51 You know, we, we play a different role, let's say, with our children. You know, certain things the kids want their mother for. There's certain things the kids want their father for. I also recognize that every family is different. There's different dynamics.

Erling Kagge 1:45:04 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:45:04 Okay? So these are broad generalizations.

Erling Kagge 1:45:07 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:45:09 But this thing of the father-son story, the reason why I really pause on this, 'cause I thought, "Hmm, our journey was an iteration of the oldest story in the world, the son who wants to know his father and be loved by him." So I'm questioning myself, go, "Does this apply to my son?" And of course, I'm not him, right?

Erling Kagge 1:45:31 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:45:31 So I can't tell you what he's thinking, but I think I've got a pretty awesome relationship with him.

Erling Kagge 1:45:36 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:45:37 Um, but it just made me think as a dad, you know, and so-

Erling Kagge 1:45:41 But you know, if it had gone on for such a long time, it's not going to be away in modern generation. But of course, our generation, uh, much closer to our kids than our parents' generation.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:45:52 Oh, you mean things are changing and society-

Erling Kagge 1:45:53 Yeah, yeah. For the better. Like, my father was not, you know, he was not welcome to be present when my mother gave birth to her three sons or his three sons.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:46:01 Yeah.

Erling Kagge 1:46:01 Whenever he went to some doctor or, you know, nurse come to check his sons when they were kids, uh, babies, he was looked upon as almost like, you know, a, a stranger because it was a man doing it. So you were estranged for your kid the first couple years of the kids' lives.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:46:18 Mm-hmm.

Erling Kagge 1:46:18 So it was, you know, it was difficult at that time, much more difficult at that time to relate to your kids. So I think, you know, we are very fortunate as fathers that we can be closer to the mother, closer to the kids early on, and also taking responsibility-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:46:33 Yeah

Erling Kagge 1:46:34 ... for the kids early on. Uh, but then again, you know, it's, uh, as a generalization, it's like the mother usually loves her kids anyway. I know my mother will love me even if I became a murderer. Whatever I would do, my mother would love me. And it's also this, maybe I quote it wrong, but this poem by, I think it's Kipling, uh, "Mother of mine, mother of mine, I know whose love would follow me still even if I, if I was hanged from the highest hill."

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:47:11 Wow.

Erling Kagge 1:47:12 But of course, with your father, you're not that certain.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:47:16 Wow.

Erling Kagge 1:47:16 Today, I'm certain my father loves me, but for many years, not so clear.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:47:22 Wow. Erling, so much to think about. Um, you're an explorer, writer, philosopher, giving some pretty good parenting advice as well. [laughs]

Erling Kagge 1:47:33 [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:47:33 Um, there, there is just so much wisdom in these books. I've been wanting to talk to you since I met you in Oslo a few years ago-

Erling Kagge 1:47:39 Mm-hmm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:47:39 ... when we didn't have a static meeting. You insisted we go for a walk.

Erling Kagge 1:47:43 [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:47:43 You took me around Oslo.

Erling Kagge 1:47:44 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:47:44 We then stopped for coffee. It was wonderful.

Erling Kagge 1:47:46 We had a great coffee, remember?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:47:47 Uh, we did.

Erling Kagge 1:47:48 It was Tim Wendelbo.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:47:49 Yeah.

Erling Kagge 1:47:49 Was one of the best, best places on Earth, actually, to have a coffee.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:47:51 Well-

Erling Kagge 1:47:52 It was lovely

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:47:52 ... and, and we were chatting before about you inviting me to Norway to come on an adventure with you-

Erling Kagge 1:47:56 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:47:56 ... which I'm gonna try and take you up on later this year-

Erling Kagge 1:47:58 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:47:58 ... if I can. Um-

Erling Kagge 1:47:59 You know, you're back to your question again. You can.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:48:03 Yeah.

Erling Kagge 1:48:03 [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:48:05 Of course. Yeah.

Erling Kagge 1:48:07 And it's not even selfish. I think it's-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:48:09 It's not even selfish, as we, as we just interrogated. Exactly. Um, there are other things I wanted to talk about, but people can read about them in your books.

Erling Kagge 1:48:17 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:48:17 You know, movement being the antidote to overthinking, pain and struggle create meaning, the present moment is the exit from negative thoughts, meaning is not something waiting to be discovered, but something we build through our choices and our mindset. Lots of powerful ideas-

Erling Kagge 1:48:32 Mm-hmm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:48:32 ... penetrate all of these books. Um, I'd highly encourage people to, to pick them up. I think they're brilliant. The new one, of course, is The North Pole: The History of an Obsession, where you detail your obsession, some of the things we've been talking about, what the journey was like, the whole history, the fact that there are four North Poles-

Erling Kagge 1:48:50 Mm-hmm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:48:50 ... not just one.

Erling Kagge 1:48:51 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:48:52 Which I found really, really interesting. Um, but to finish up this conversation, Erling-

Erling Kagge 1:48:58 Mm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:48:58 ... there's a lot of people who listen to my podcast because they feel stuck in life.

Erling Kagge 1:49:04 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:49:05 They feel a bit lost, as if their lives don't have meaning. They're lacking purpose, and they don't know where to go. With all of your wisdom, with all of these expeditions that you've been on, for someone who's struggling right now in their life, what would you say to them?

Erling Kagge 1:49:23 Um, it's a tough one because, as I said earlier on, you know, our lives are quite alike and our problems are quite similar, but still it's unique. So, you know, to give general advice is difficult because, as you also have, I have deep respect for every human, also every human who's struggling. Uh, but what I said earlier on, I think most humans are underestimating themselves. From early on in life, like, you know, we're told you can't draw, and you believe you can't draw the rest of your life. You love surrender, you believe, et cetera. And this goes through from childhood, uh, teenage years into adult life, and all this, you know, kind of negativity, uh, shapes you. So somehow you have to break free of it, not all of it, but parts of it. And, and I think, you know, like to move, to walk, uh, move, moving, mo- being moved, as we talked about. It's, you know, to get up in the morning, to try to get into nature. And, you know, here in UK, it's kind of you maybe have to travel far to get into nature, but at least get into some parks and, and, and, um, try to have some variations in your life. Because if you happen to do kind of the same things every day, which for instance could be, um, spend hours every day looking into a screen and believe you're going to learn about yourself, learn about the world, and find meanings in life, it's a huge mistake.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:51:11 Mm.

Erling Kagge 1:51:11 So somehow you have to, you have to, uh, be a little bit brutal to yourself. It's easy to say. It's difficult to do. But is it worth it? Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:51:27 Yeah.

Erling Kagge 1:51:27 So it's kind of, you know, it's about finding your own North Pole eventually.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:51:31 Erling, it's been such a joy talking to you.

Erling Kagge 1:51:34 [laughs] Thank you.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:51:34 Thank you for writing all these wonderful books, and thank you for making the journey to the studio.

Erling Kagge 1:51:38 Come to Norway. [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:51:40 That's it. We'll do it. Thanks, man.

Erling Kagge 1:51:42 Thank you.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:51:43 If you enjoyed that conversation, then I think you are really going to enjoy this one.

Speaker 1:51:48 It's only when you learn what to do with your unhappiness that you can really break through and find stable happiness.