Amazing Benefits Of Walking Backwards Everyday You Never Knew About (Heal Pain, Posture & Stress)

1. 0:00 – 0:57

   Why backward walking is an “antidote to modern life”

   1. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee0:00

      Lawrence, you work with some of the best athletes on the planet. You're an amazing movement coach. You're so much more than that. But one thing you recommend to a lot of your athletes is backward walking. Why?

   2. LLLawrence van Lingen0:15

      I think, um, there's a lot that goes on with backward walking. If I had to distill it out really simply, I think it's basically an antidote to modern life. I think it introduces an element of play into our movement. It's grounding. Um, it changes the timing of your walking. So I think we s- spend a lot of time in flexion, a lot of time sitting, and it's a really, really good way to sort of open up your posture and create length and space and kind of get the chair out of your posture. Um, but there, there's a lot to unpack in backward walking. It's just, it's something that you should just try and do and experience for yourself.

   3. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee0:51

      What are some of the benefits that people can get if they start backward walking?

2. 0:57 – 2:02

   Calming the nervous system and decompressing the low back

   1. LLLawrence van Lingen0:57

      For a lot of people, it down regulates your nervous system, so it can be very calming, and, and that's, that's amazing in and, in and of itself to find a way that can kind of quickly ground you or calm you or, or change your autonomic nervous system. Um, and then the other one, it, it kind of decompresses your lower back and pelvis and creates space in your joints. When you're stepping back and you put your whole weight through your leg, you almost learn to trust the, the tensegrity, which is like a fascia word, the internal sort of structure of your body, and you learn to put your whole weight through your leg. Whereas a lot of time, people are, are kind of hurried and rushing and taking the next step, and there's a lot of tension in their movement. It really frees up tension from your walking and running.

   2. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:36

      Yeah. It's really interesting. I think most people listening to us right now will have heard the benefits of walking more.

   3. LLLawrence van Lingen1:43

      Yeah.

   4. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:43

      Like, they-- You know, we all know, don't we, where... that we should be trying to walk more in society, and the modern world has made it harder or certainly more difficult for many people to get basic levels of low-intensity movement that we would have had for much of our evolution.

   5. LLLawrence van Lingen2:01

      Yeah.

3. 2:02 – 6:00

   Movement as stress regulation: sympathetic vs parasympathetic

   1. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee2:02

      But there's very few people who are talking about backward walking, right? Which is, which is super interesting for me. You've told me before that some of your athletes will actually do a bit of backward walking before they go to bed. It helps them switch off. It helps them calm down. And so there's this relationship, isn't there, between the way we move and our body's stress levels.

   2. LLLawrence van Lingen2:25

      Yeah, totally.

   3. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee2:26

      You know, can you talk a little bit about that?

   4. LLLawrence van Lingen2:28

      Yeah. Um, I mean, this is something that I'm really immersing myself in at the moment, and, and it's... because it's so powerful when you get it right, and it makes such a big change, and it's this relationship between your parasympathetic nervous system and your sympathetic nervous system. So, you know, for, for clarification, I think most people are pretty familiar with these terms now, but your parasympathetic's rest and digest, and your sympathetic nervous system would be sort of like what we need to in an emergency state. So it's fight or flight or fawn or freeze. And I think a lot of people are overstimulated in the modern world, and so can tend to be a little bit wired or a little bit anxious and a little bit uptight, and, and we really do need to calm down and down regulate. And you're seeing this incredible interplay between your autonomic nervous systems and the way you move and the way you breathe, and, and if you get it right, it's so incredibly powerful. Um, and so we really do want to sort of learn how to down regulate the stress at the end of the day so that you sleep better, so that you wake up and your next day is better. But also in that moment, learning how to move with more ease, learning how to move in a more relaxed manner, learning how to move in a more grounded manner, then walking becomes rehabilitation. And so your forward walking gets so much better if you, if you walking and it's a creative act and you're thinking and you're thinking better on your feet. Whereas, you know, on, on another level, you could be anxious and, and angry and stomping along or tr- you know, rushing to get somewhere and having a sense of anxiety and time pressure. And, you know, those are not the same walking, and I think modern pe- modern life can pull you into a state where you're not really aware of, of... You're just in a ch- constant state of reacting. You're always late. You've got deadlines. You're always rushing somewhere. You're not immersing yourself in the wa- in the walking itself. You know, you're not extracting all the gold from walking that there could be. So I think that's kind of where I'm playing around with it at, at the moment, is trying to get people more centered, more embodied, more in themselves, and then you move better and you experience life better and, um, you make better choices, and people around you react far differently to when you're calm. So it's just life-changing.

   5. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee4:42

      Yeah.

   6. LLLawrence van Lingen4:42

      It's much more than movement.

   7. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee4:44

      There's a couple of interesting themes there for me, Lawrence. Okay. Um, firstly, this idea that many people these days are chronically stressed.

   8. LLLawrence van Lingen4:54

      Yeah.

   9. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee4:54

      Okay? So they're chronically in the sympathetic part of their nervous system, which is the-

   10. LLLawrence van Lingen5:00

       Yeah

   11. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee5:00

       ... fight or flight part-

   12. LLLawrence van Lingen5:01

       Yeah

   13. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee5:01

       ... as opposed to the parasympathetic, that relaxation part.

   14. LLLawrence van Lingen5:04

       Yeah.

   15. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee5:04

       Okay. I think many, stroke, most people listening would go, "Yeah, yeah, I, I kind of get that."

   16. LLLawrence van Lingen5:10

       Yeah.

   17. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee5:10

       Okay. "I'm too busy. I'm too stressed. I'm looking for practices that help me de-stress." And what's interesting for me is I think a lot of people, when they think of, you know, winding down their nervous system and switching off, a lot of the time they're thinking about doing less things or maybe practices like meditation or journaling, right? And again-

   18. LLLawrence van Lingen5:38

       Mm

   19. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee5:38

       ... nothing wrong with those things, right?

   20. LLLawrence van Lingen5:40

       Yeah.

   21. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee5:40

       But you're talking about a particular movement practice, backward walking, as a way to down regulate.

   22. LLLawrence van Lingen5:48

       Yeah.

   23. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee5:49

       Now, I think that's-- I guess some people would, would maybe say, "Well, yoga helps me down regulate in the evening."

   24. LLLawrence van Lingen5:56

       Yeah.

   25. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee5:56

       "It helps me switch off." Okay. So I think-

   26. LLLawrence van Lingen5:57

       Yeah

   27. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee5:57

       ... there is an understanding that movement-

   28. LLLawrence van Lingen6:00

       Yeah

4. 6:00 – 8:05

   Why backward walking can work: pattern interruption, heels, and softer hips

   1. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee6:00

      ... the right kind of movement can help us down regulate. But I guess-I, I'm really interested as to why you think backward walking does this. Is it because it's such a pattern interrupter? So because we don't do it, our brain is having to adapt because suddenly, you know, you're, you're, you're walking now not with the heel down first, your toe's going down first, and you're ... Do you know what I mean?

   2. LLLawrence van Lingen6:27

      Yeah.

   3. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee6:27

      Is part of it a pattern interrupter for the brain?

   4. LLLawrence van Lingen6:30

      Yeah. Th- there's an element of neuroplasticity because, you know, you're walking backwards and you, you sort of have a fresh look at walking. But it, it's ... There's a twofold answer to that question, is if you walk forward and you're up on your toes, um, and sort of elevated, you'll feed into your sympathetic nervous system. But if you use your whole foot, and you really sort of trust the ground, and your heels hit the ground, what'll tend to happen is you'll activate more your parasympathetic nervous system. And so walking backwards, you, you learn to trust your heel, you learn to connect your bones. And so if you just walk backwards and you, you ... as you put your whole weight through the leg that you're standing on, and as you translate backwards, you learn to take a lot of tension out of your hips and your, your adductors and your hamstring muscles and your leg muscles. And because of that, you learn to move in a way that's much softer, and it's, it really does impact the nervous system. And it might not work ... You know, some people are really big responders, and, um, I think from our previous lesson, a lot of people walk backwards and, and have very, very quick results. Within a week, they're like, "Oh, my word. This is incredible." Um, and then the second one is I think it impacts our tonic and phasic muscle system. You know, you had a great run this morning, and, and we sort of got a new move. [laughs] Um, and yeah, really getting into your tonic and phasic muscle system as a, as a way of actually understanding and healthily intervening and healing your autonomic nervous system.

   5. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee7:58

      Okay. Well, we'll get to-

   6. LLLawrence van Lingen7:59

      Yeah

   7. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee7:59

      ... uh, tonic or tonic-

   8. LLLawrence van Lingen8:00

      Yeah

   9. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee8:01

      ... and phasic muscles in just a minute.

   10. LLLawrence van Lingen8:02

       Yeah.

5. 8:05 – 12:25

   Trust in movement, trust in life: injuries, confidence, and elite examples

   1. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee8:05

      Th- th- this, this word you, you mention a lot, trust.

   2. LLLawrence van Lingen8:10

      Yeah.

   3. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee8:11

      It's really interesting. Ever since I started consuming your content online, one of the things that I always loved about the way you talk about movement i- is, you know, in many ways you talk about movement as being life. The way we move is the way we live. If you can't trust through movement, you can't trust in life. I'm not saying you, you-

   4. LLLawrence van Lingen8:39

      Yeah

   5. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee8:39

      ... directly say those words. This is what I take from it.

   6. LLLawrence van Lingen8:41

      Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

   7. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee8:41

      This is how I think about it. And, and I think sometimes we, uh, the collective we, we think about movement as separate from our lives. Okay? So-

   8. LLLawrence van Lingen8:50

      Yeah

   9. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee8:51

      ... I've got my job. I need to answer my emails. I need to do this, and then if I have some time, because I heard on a podcast that movement is good for me, I need to go to the gym and move my body.

   10. LLLawrence van Lingen9:00

       Yeah.

   11. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee9:01

       Again, I understand that.

   12. LLLawrence van Lingen9:02

       Yeah.

   13. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee9:02

       I'm not saying there's necessarily anything wrong with that. But what I really love about your work, and this is how I think about movement, is the way you move, your ability to trust yourself when you move, impacts your wider life beyond that specific movement. And backward walking's really interesting, isn't it? Because if you think about it, on so many levels you're having to trust. You know, have you had experiences of athletes who perhaps were, for whatever reason, maybe trauma, past experiences, you know, bad relationships, whatever it might be, struggled to trust in life?

   14. LLLawrence van Lingen9:40

       Yeah.

   15. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee9:40

       And through the trusting of their movement, through something like backward walking, it started to impact their lives beyond that movement.

   16. LLLawrence van Lingen9:49

       Yeah. And I think you're really onto something. So the trust notion, you know, it's like in ... I don't know. They'll have people fall backwards, and you, and you get caught from behind.

   17. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee9:58

       Yeah.

   18. LLLawrence van Lingen9:58

       You know, there, there's an element of that, for sure. But the more people start to trust their bodies, it ... you know, trust starts to show up elsewhere in, in your life. Like, let's say running. Running's ... We can, we're gonna hopefully talk about this a little bit later. You know, running, the injury rates are really, really high, and so a lot of people have a, a sort of a love-hate or a fear sort of relationship with running. They're always injured, or when's the next injury gonna come? Or you are injured, and you're very, very frustrated. Like, if, say, we're an antelope in the savanna in Africa, [laughs] if you're walking with a limp, you know, you're the food. Like, you're the weakest in the link. We don't like limping. We don't like being insecure. We don't like not trusting-

   19. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee10:34

       Mm

   20. LLLawrence van Lingen10:34

       ... our, our knee or our bodies or our joints. It's very, very unsettling. So if you can start to trust your body, like you know and you're confident that if you reasonably well behaved, you're not gonna be injured, that's very, very empowering. And, and we see it with athletes, for sure. I mean, like Taylor Knibb, who I work very closely with, um, she had in, I think three years, 13 MRIs.

   21. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee11:00

       Wow.

   22. LLLawrence van Lingen11:01

       And, you know, in the last nearly two years, she hasn't had a single MRI, and her level of trust in her body is, is blossoming in all areas of her life.

   23. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee11:10

       Yeah. Yeah.

   24. LLLawrence van Lingen11:10

       And, and, and the self-confidence, and she's just showing up different. And the way she perceives the world's changing, and the way the world perceives her is changing. You just know here's a young, confident woman that's stepping into her power, and, you know, you can't fake that.

   25. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee11:24

       No.

   26. LLLawrence van Lingen11:24

       Well, you can try and fake that, but it comes from a very authentic place.

   27. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee11:27

       For, for people who are not familiar with the elite, uh, triathlon worlds, can you just explain who Taylor Knibb is? 'Cause she's not just any athlete, is she?

   28. LLLawrence van Lingen11:35

       No. No. Taylor's, um ... Taylor's a very special athlete. So, um, she's won world 70.3 Champs three times, and last year she won the inaugural, um, T100, which is like a middle-distance triathlon racing. She won every race she entered in that, and won the overall champion.

   29. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee11:51

       So she's one of the best athletes on the planet?

   30. LLLawrence van Lingen11:53

       Yeah. Yes.
6. 12:25 – 19:16

   How to start backward walking: safety, surfaces, and the 5‑minute rule

   1. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee12:25

      ... pop it in or pop a link so people can see it. But just give us some, uh, rough guidance. How can people-

   2. LLLawrence van Lingen12:32

      Yeah

   3. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee12:32

      ... actually do it?

   4. LLLawrence van Lingen12:34

      Okay.

   5. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee12:34

      Is it outside? Is it inside? You know, w- what, is on a treadmill? Like-

   6. LLLawrence van Lingen12:37

      Yeah, yeah

   7. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee12:37

      ... could you just walk us through those things, please?

   8. LLLawrence van Lingen12:40

      Okay. So you wanna be safe, okay? You know, don't ... [laughs] It's, it's very easy when you're walking backwards to walk into things. So if we do it in a gym, for example, with athletes, they'll, they'll actually focus on what they're doing so much and they, they will walk into equipment. So try and walk in a place where there's quite a bit of space or you're familiar with. So, like, your back garden is great 'cause you know how big it is.

   9. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee13:01

      Yeah. I think we touched on it first in our first conversation, but I think it's such an important concept for people to realize, is I feel very much that your posture will often reflect your personality.

   10. LLLawrence van Lingen13:19

       Yeah.

   11. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee13:20

       And I know for me that the more open I'm able to be, the more trusting I'm able to be, the more I'm able to actually, um, you know, be with my height. I'm a tall guy.

   12. LLLawrence van Lingen13:34

       Yeah.

   13. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee13:34

       You know? I'm actually getting taller. I'm, I think, an inch taller-

   14. LLLawrence van Lingen13:38

       Yeah

   15. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee13:38

       ... uh, like my spinal measurement compared to-

   16. LLLawrence van Lingen13:40

       Yeah

   17. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee13:40

       ... five years ago.

   18. LLLawrence van Lingen13:41

       Yeah. Well, that's important, and that's what we want. We wanna decompress the spine.

   19. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee13:45

       Exactly. So it's not that, um, it's not that I'm suddenly mi- uh, miraculously growing. It's that I wasn't in my full height before.

   20. LLLawrence van Lingen13:54

       No. Yeah, you've regained your potential. That's what you're supposed to be. That's your birthright. [laughs]

   21. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee13:58

       Exactly. But, but, but, but this is where it gets really interesting for me, Lawrence, is that that is also reflected in my personality. So I was telling you in the kitchen just before, and I think, uh, Make Change At Last, that is my sixth book that came out-

   22. LLLawrence van Lingen14:12

       Yeah

   23. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee14:12

       ... just a few months ago now. It is without question the best and most confident book I've ever written.

   24. LLLawrence van Lingen14:18

       Yeah.

   25. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee14:18

       And I don't think you can take my posture and the way I move away from that because ... Okay, so I'm, you know, 6'7" now, I think.

   26. LLLawrence van Lingen14:27

       Yeah.

   27. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee14:27

       Okay? But like many tall people, um, you try and hide your height, you know, when you're like 18, 19, 20. You're at university.

   28. LLLawrence van Lingen14:37

       Yeah.

   29. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee14:37

       You're trying to fit in. You're trying to make friends. You know, you're trying to get down to everyone's-

   30. LLLawrence van Lingen14:42

       Yeah
7. 19:16 – 21:14

   Key technique cues: soft toes, heel loading, and belly-button orientation

   1. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee19:16

      Okay. So five minutes a day, backward walking barefoot. And I know from when I started to do it that there's a particular pattern-

   2. LLLawrence van Lingen19:24

      Yeah

   3. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee19:24

      ... you want, right? And I know, I think I shared this on the first one-

   4. LLLawrence van Lingen19:27

      [laughs]

   5. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee19:27

      ... like in my family of four, three of us did the wrong pattern initially.

   6. LLLawrence van Lingen19:33

      Yeah.

   7. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee19:33

      So our intuitive feeling-

   8. LLLawrence van Lingen19:34

      Yeah

   9. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee19:34

      ... was we didn't do it right. My daughter nailed it first time.

   10. LLLawrence van Lingen19:37

       [laughs]

   11. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee19:37

       She just got it.

   12. LLLawrence van Lingen19:38

       Yeah.

   13. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee19:39

       Um, I can now nail it now-

   14. LLLawrence van Lingen19:40

       Yeah

   15. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee19:41

       ... because I know it.

   16. LLLawrence van Lingen19:41

       Yeah.

   17. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee19:42

       But I, I mean, we'll try and shoot a video to show people, but can you... Are you able to articulate it in words for people-

   18. LLLawrence van Lingen19:48

       Yeah

   19. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee19:48

       ... so they know?

   20. LLLawrence van Lingen19:49

       Yeah, yeah. So, so the cues are soft toes. So as you step backwards, you wanna relax your toes and let your toes bend on the ground.

   21. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee19:57

       Okay.

   22. LLLawrence van Lingen19:57

       And then your heel goes down. Your heel must... You- as you step backwards, you want to be able to have full weight through your heels. It's really important.

   23. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee20:05

       Okay.

   24. LLLawrence van Lingen20:06

       Um, so that's the important thing. And then your belly button or your sort of solar plexus, so here where your ribs are, that should point towards the lead leg, the leg in front of you. And it's very common for people to sort of step out of pattern the wrong way around, which would be your, your belly button pointing to the leg that's stepping backwards.

   25. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee20:25

       Okay.

   26. LLLawrence van Lingen20:26

       Okay? And, and that's basically a reversal of your normal gait patterns.

   27. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee20:31

       And, and-

   28. LLLawrence van Lingen20:32

       And that's one of the reasons some people respond to it. Once you, you s- restore that pattern, it has a profound effect on the nervous system.

   29. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee20:38

       Yeah.

   30. LLLawrence van Lingen20:38

       So if you walk the wrong way around, you wanna be thinking, "Oh, this is an opportunity because if I correct this, good things are gonna happen."
8. 21:14 – 22:49

   Decompressing the spine and improving running form—fast

   1. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee21:14

      What... That, that term, you used it a lot last time as well, decompress the spine.

   2. LLLawrence van Lingen21:19

      Yeah.

   3. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee21:19

      What does that mean?

   4. LLLawrence van Lingen21:21

      So your, your body works like a suspension bridge. We've got rigid levers and elastic tissue. It's a combination of the two. So steel and... You know, like a su- suspension bridge has steel and concrete, right? Um, so your spine can often be compressed by muscle tension. So all the... There's hundreds of muscles that run up and down your spine. There's a lot of long muscles that run across multiple joint segments, and they'll... If they're tight, they'll compress your spine. And the flow rope and learning to sort of move from the center and taking the tension out of your movement will, will relax those muscles, and your spine will decompress. It gets longer. You actually take pressure off the discs. So anyone that's got back pain or, you know, has sort of degeneration of their spine, you know, I really strongly encourage you, if you start these sort of practices, you know, for flow rope, measure yourself, your height, and I'm pretty sure you'll decom- You know, if, if people comment and come back and say, "Yeah, I measured myself and I got taller," it'll be really good feedback 'cause a lot of people will. Um, and I almost expect it. It should happen. And with backward walking, your running will improve, and it'll improve quickly.

   5. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee22:26

      Yeah.

   6. LLLawrence van Lingen22:26

      You'll... If you take a before and after video, so you take a video of you running on the treadmill from the side and you walk backwards five minutes a day, and it doesn't have to be every day, it can be three times a week, whatever you can fit in, you know, within two weeks, and if you, you know, video you're running again, it'll have... your form will have changed.

   7. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee22:43

      Yeah.

   8. LLLawrence van Lingen22:43

      There's no doubt about it, and for the better, and your, you know, your, your experience of running will be, will be better.

9. 22:49 – 32:55

   Play, curiosity, oxytocin—and why most people don’t enjoy running

   1. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee22:49

      What, what's really interesting, Lawrence, is those two practices you mentioned, backward walking and the flow rope, not only are they incredibly beneficial for multiple aspects of our health, our happiness-

   2. LLLawrence van Lingen23:02

      Yeah

   3. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee23:02

      ... our wider lives, they're also really fun.

   4. LLLawrence van Lingen23:05

      Yeah.

   5. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee23:06

      Right? A lot of people have this love-hate relationship with movement, don't they?

   6. LLLawrence van Lingen23:09

      Yeah.

   7. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee23:09

      They, they hear public health messaging that they should move more, but what... for some reason, and there can be many reasons, they don't enjoy the movement.

   8. LLLawrence van Lingen23:18

      Yeah.

   9. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee23:18

      It may be the particular movement they're doing.

   10. LLLawrence van Lingen23:20

       Yeah.

   11. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee23:20

       Or it could also be that their body is locked in certain patterns, so movement feels hard and difficult. Backward walking and the flow rope, like you're gonna have a smile on your face-

   12. LLLawrence van Lingen23:32

       Yeah. Totally

   13. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee23:32

       ... as you do them. That, that you feel like you're a child again playing around.

   14. LLLawrence van Lingen23:35

       Yeah.

   15. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee23:35

       How important is that when it comes to healing our bodies?

   16. LLLawrence van Lingen23:38

       Well, it's really, really important. I think, l- let's say for the listener, you're sitting there and say, "Well, I wonder how wired I am or how stuck in a sympathetic state I am," you know? Well, one of the things is if you're not curious and you don't have a sense of play, you're in a sympathetic state. So parasympathetic and curiosity and play go hand in hand.

   17. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee23:57

       Okay, hold on. Just pause there a minute-

   18. LLLawrence van Lingen23:58

       [laughs]

   19. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee23:58

       ... 'cause I wanna make sure everyone follows the term. So s- um, sympathetic nervous system, I know we've covered it-

   20. LLLawrence van Lingen24:03

       Yeah

   21. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee24:04

       ... but I just wanna y- I just wanna land-

   22. LLLawrence van Lingen24:06

       Yeah

   23. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee24:06

       ... this point right.

   24. LLLawrence van Lingen24:06

       Yeah.

   25. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee24:06

       Sympathetic nervous system is the stress part of your nervous system, which you don't wanna be in all the time, just now and again.

   26. LLLawrence van Lingen24:12

       Yeah.

   27. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee24:12

       But unfortunately, f- in the modern world, many of us are mostly in that state.

   28. LLLawrence van Lingen24:17

       Yeah.

   29. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee24:17

       The opposite is the parasympathetic nervous system-

   30. LLLawrence van Lingen24:19

       Yeah
10. 32:55 – 45:01

    Running injuries, the ‘Strava effect,’ and redefining success

    1. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee32:55

       and five free travel packs with your first order. You can see all details at drinkag1.com/livemore or just click on the link below. Now, back to the conversation. Right. I've noticed it. Um, I don't have it myself anymore, that's for sure. But you see it everywhere, particularly with running. You know, they... I think it's called the Strava Effect.

    2. LLLawrence van Lingen33:19

       Yeah.

    3. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee33:19

       You know, when people know-

    4. LLLawrence van Lingen33:20

       Yeah. [laughs]

    5. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee33:20

       ... their run is being tracked on Strava-

    6. LLLawrence van Lingen33:22

       Yeah

    7. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee33:22

       ... they're like, "Oh my God, I, I can't post that time. I must go quicker. What will people think?" It's like-

    8. LLLawrence van Lingen33:28

       Yeah

    9. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee33:29

       ... who are you having this conversation with?

    10. LLLawrence van Lingen33:31

        [laughs]

    11. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee33:31

        It's like it's just an internal conversation with no one, basically. But we cause ourself this mental stress over nothing. It should be this expression for you and you alone.

    12. LLLawrence van Lingen33:43

        Yeah.

    13. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee33:43

        And so a couple of things come to mind there, Lawrence, for me, okay? One is the fact that you told me last night after you tweeted me that you've made so many improvements in your running efficiency that now you can do, like, a 20K run and not feel it the next day.

    14. LLLawrence van Lingen34:03

        Yeah.

    15. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee34:04

        That is super interesting to me because there's an idea, and I'm not saying people should or shouldn't run every day, but there is an idea that when I run, of course I'm gonna have pain the following day and stiffness the following day. But that's not necessarily true if you're running with beautiful running efficiency, right?

    16. LLLawrence van Lingen34:28

        Yeah.

    17. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee34:29

        Yeah. So that's quite interesting to me.

    18. LLLawrence van Lingen34:30

        Yeah. We, we see... I mean, for me personally, running, you know, I, I obsessed about running because I couldn't run, and I found it harder than it should be, and I wasn't very good. So if you look, I did triathlon, right? My swimming was exceptional. My biking was okay, b- and it didn't feel like I had a hard... I thought I could just, with time and effort, I'd, I'd get better at cycling. But I, I was a very, very bad runner, and when I ran, it hurt. Like, my muscles would get sore. My muscles would get damaged. So I'd have to train more and more to condition myself enough to be able to do long runs, and it would beat me up. Um, and now I have a totally different relationship with running. You know, I'm, I'm really, really efficient when I run. It feels amazing. I don't get tired. I don't break down as much. It's not as harmful for me at all. And we have this... So I worked with Jan Frodeno, right, who was... He, he's a, a gold medalist in the Olympics in triathlon and m- multiple world champion. His running efficiency improved so much that he said, like, I kinda stole his, his track workout from him. So what, what he meant by this is, you know, he'd go down to the track, and he'd do sort of eight by one kilometers, and then afterwards he'd be pretty beat up. But he enjoyed the satisfaction 'cause it was like, "I've done work." And he actually liked the sensation of being beat up, and then every day he'd just have physio, um, deep tissue, try and restore himself, and the next day he just repeated. And I was with him in Andorra when he did a track workout, and he said, "That didn't touch sides. It feels like I haven't worked enough and I haven't done enough." So he added two more, I think, 1Ks on there. So he did 10 by 1Ks, and he said, "That's still not enough." And he started doing 400 repeats. And I was like, "Dude, it's enough, but your relationship with running is so changed that..." You know, and this is in a, in a world champion and a gold medalist.

    19. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee36:11

        There's a-

    20. LLLawrence van Lingen36:11

        So we really can change the, our relationship with running through how well we move.

    21. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee36:15

        It's super interesting that you're talking about this-... Olympic medalist, this world champion. A- and from, from what you just shared there, it strikes me as though he had conditioned himself over a number of years that if this workout is gonna help me improve my performance, it's gotta feel hard.

    22. LLLawrence van Lingen36:36

        Yeah.

    23. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee36:37

        I've gotta feel as though I've worked.

    24. LLLawrence van Lingen36:39

        Yeah.

    25. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee36:41

        There wasn't this idea that it could actually feel effortless or more efficient-

    26. LLLawrence van Lingen36:48

        Yeah

    27. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee36:48

        ... right? And I, and I, I really find that point interesting because I would say one of the biggest things I've changed with myself over the past years is this goes beyond movement actually.

    28. LLLawrence van Lingen36:57

        Mm.

    29. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee36:57

        This is just... Well, can you separate movement [laughs] from personality?

    30. LLLawrence van Lingen37:00

        [laughs]
11. 45:01 – 46:47

    Respecting joint mechanics: move well first, then strengthen

    1. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee45:01

       You have this beautiful phrase, I think, Lawrence, you say, um, "We need to move in a way that respects our joints."

    2. LLLawrence van Lingen45:08

       Yeah.

    3. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee45:08

       Um, what does that mean?

    4. LLLawrence van Lingen45:11

       Joints have a particular pattern. Um, so, like, your, your hip joint, your, you know, where your femur joins your, your pelvis, um, as you move into flexion, so as you bring your knee forward, it's sort of coupled with external rotation. And as you move it, um, into extension behind, it's coupled with internal rotation. You wanna respect that pattern. There's very strong ligaments, um, that reinforce that pattern. The muscles around that, um, reinforce that pattern. So that's a pattern. You wanna run with that pattern. Um, for those of you that walk backwards and you, you'll, you know, you realize, oh, hang on, my belly button's pointing towards the back leg, not the front leg, you know, that hip's working out of pattern. So you're not respecting the joint. It's ... These are biomechanically just how it works. Um, an example would, like, even if your elbow, if I bend my elbow, you know, my elbow can bend th- you know, this far that way. It cannot ... It ... That's, that's as far as it goes that way. We need to respect that. That's a, that's a hardwired into your joint. Let's say you've got knee pain, um, and it starts to hurt in your joints, especially weightbearing joints. You know, you need to recognize you're not running in a way ... First learn to move in a way that doesn't hurt your joints, and then what we do is we strengthen it up, r- which is almost the, the ... The current narrative is if you have an injury, you're gonna, um, rehab it and strengthen it, and I, I think what I would say is first learn to move in a way that doesn't stress the joint, and then strengthen up and rehab that movement.

    5. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee46:43

       Mm.

    6. LLLawrence van Lingen46:43

       It's just a little bit of a different way of looking at it, you know, but we have to respect our joints.

12. 46:47 – 56:36

    Marathon mindset, pain thresholds, and the cost of pushing through

    1. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee46:47

       It's interesting. As you say that, I'm, I'm drawn to the London Marathon, okay? We're a few days out from, you know, the 2025 London Marathon. That's one of the reasons you're in the UK is-

    2. LLLawrence van Lingen46:58

       Mm

    3. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee46:58

       ... 'cause you're running the event, okay? So firstly, in a, in a society, in a running world obsessed with goals-

    4. LLLawrence van Lingen47:07

       Yeah

    5. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee47:09

       ... I would argue overly obsessed with goals, uh, or that the overfocus on goals can come at a cost that a lot of us aren't recognizing, what is your goal, or what is your plan for this Saturday, or this Sunday's London Marathon, I should say? That's first question.

    6. LLLawrence van Lingen47:26

       Mm.

    7. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee47:26

       But the second question is, in relation to what you've just said, we should move in a way that respects our joints.

    8. LLLawrence van Lingen47:32

       Yeah.

    9. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee47:33

       The London Marathon is an incredible event, and what will no doubt happen this year, as happens every year, is that some people will still complete that and raise a lot of money for charity-

    10. LLLawrence van Lingen47:48

        Yeah

    11. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee47:48

        ... let's say, but they will not be moving in a way that respects-

    12. LLLawrence van Lingen47:51

        [laughs]

    13. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee47:51

        ... their joints, right? So first of all, let's talk about your relationship with-

    14. LLLawrence van Lingen47:56

        Yeah

    15. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee47:56

        ... with the London Marathon this Sunday.

    16. LLLawrence van Lingen47:57

        Yeah.

    17. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee47:58

        But then let's move into that, because I think, I think there's this narrative in society that it's always good to do a marathon. Ah, you know, I did it. I pushed through.

    18. LLLawrence van Lingen48:07

        Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    19. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee48:07

        But I know, and I'm sure you know more than me, people who literally were so bloody-minded about completing a marathon, they then never ran again afterwards, ever-

    20. LLLawrence van Lingen48:17

        Yeah. Yeah, yeah

    21. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee48:17

        ... 'cause they broke themselves-

    22. LLLawrence van Lingen48:19

        Yeah

    23. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee48:19

        ... or they wrecked their knee, and that impacted their life for years afterwards. But hey, they got the marathon. They can put that on their Instagram handle, "I completed-

    24. LLLawrence van Lingen48:28

        Yeah

    25. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee48:28

        ... the marathon." It's, it's a really interesting relationship I think we have, so-What's your relationship, number one, and then how would you help someone think about this sort of other conundrum? Yeah

    26. LLLawrence van Lingen48:41

        So my relationship is I'm gonna run with Chris Evans. Um, so I'm gonna run with a friend. Um, [laughs] you know, we're gonna go for a run with someone. So I, I don't have a, a time goal, I just simply would like to run with him, and if we, we decide not to run with each other, then that's also okay. You know, we can just go on and do our own race. Um, so I don't actually have much of a time goal or pacing goal. I'll just run with him. Um, and which is interesting 'cause I haven't, I haven't run a marathon in a long time, and I really enjoyed the fact that I was sort of almost like a little bit late notice. I think we-- I was given 11 weeks' notice, um, to run a marathon, you know, time to prepare. Um, but I think, like, it, it was good for us 'cause I hadn't been doing long runs for quite a long time. We just sort of ran 6 to 8Ks every day, but at altitude, at high. So it's-- we're running 40 to 52 minutes a day, and then on the weekends we'd run 10Ks or at that altitude, like an hour, just over an hour, and that... We were pretty set in that routine. So it was actually quite nice to get out of my comfort zone, run a little bit longer.

    27. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee49:43

        So you're looking to have fun.

    28. LLLawrence van Lingen49:44

        So I'm looking to have fun, yeah, and, and camaraderie and a sense of fellowship. Yeah.

    29. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee49:47

        And, and if-- I'm not trying to tempt fate at all, and I don't th-

    30. LLLawrence van Lingen49:50

        Yeah
13. 56:36 – 1:08:59

    Community as performance medicine: culture, tribe, and learning by assimilation

    1. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee56:36

       I, I wonder how much of this is, um, i- is, is cultural in the sense that you, you brought up Kipchoge.

    2. LLLawrence van Lingen56:46

       Yeah.

    3. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee56:46

       Okay? I, I had the great privilege of having a long-form chat with him a couple years ago on this show, and he'd literally broken the world record the week before in Berlin.

    4. LLLawrence van Lingen56:57

       Yeah.

    5. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee56:57

       And then he, he was coming to London to do press and interviews, and I, you know, very luckily to ha- I had some time with him. And one of the things I've never forgotten from that conversation is this idea that he never, ever runs by himself.

    6. LLLawrence van Lingen57:14

       Yeah.

    7. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee57:15

       Never. It's always with his crew.

    8. LLLawrence van Lingen57:20

       Yeah.

    9. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee57:20

       His running club.

    10. LLLawrence van Lingen57:21

        Yeah.

    11. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee57:22

        They run together. And I, I... To me, it was like, this is so interesting because, you know, we explored it together, this idea that in the West, that's a very broad term, that people often go for runs by themselves. You know, work was tough. I need to make sure I'm taking care of my health and doing something, so I'm gonna go for a run to unwind.

    12. LLLawrence van Lingen57:42

        Yeah.

    13. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee57:43

        Okay? I do that, so I, I am, I'm not judging it or criticizing it.

    14. LLLawrence van Lingen57:46

        Yes. I mean, there's a book, The Loneliness of the Long-Distance Runner.

    15. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee57:49

        Yeah, but these guys don't have that. [laughs]

    16. LLLawrence van Lingen57:52

        No.

    17. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee57:52

        It's a different culture.

    18. LLLawrence van Lingen57:53

        Yeah.

    19. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee57:53

        Right? They run together, and it... I remember he said, he said, "You know, the reason, one of the reasons we run together is if, you know, if I'm not showing up for whatever reason, someone's gonna be phoning," said, "Hey, Eli, are you okay? What's wrong?"

    20. LLLawrence van Lingen58:03

        Yeah. [laughs]

    21. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee58:03

        "Why aren't you here?" You know.

    22. LLLawrence van Lingen58:04

        Yeah.

    23. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee58:04

        "We're all, it's 6:00 AM. We're all running today."

    24. LLLawrence van Lingen58:06

        Yeah.

    25. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee58:07

        And I thought that was such a, such a beautiful thing for me to think about, this relationship we have with running. So coming back to this big identity that people now have about their Parkrun time on a Saturday or whether they can even do a marathon or not, it's... Surely, it all comes from this Western individualistic mindset-

    26. LLLawrence van Lingen58:30

        Yeah

    27. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee58:31

        ... whereby it does say something about me. Whereas if you always run in community and in a supportive tribe-

    28. LLLawrence van Lingen58:38

        Yeah

    29. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee58:38

        ... well, maybe there's less of a need to define yourself-

    30. LLLawrence van Lingen58:41

        Yeah
14. 1:08:59 – 1:23:06

    Tonic vs phasic muscles, breathing, and somatovisceral movement

    1. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:08:59

       Earlier on, we were talking about, uh, tonic or tonic muscles-

    2. LLLawrence van Lingen1:09:04

       Yeah

    3. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:09:04

       ... via phasic muscles.

    4. LLLawrence van Lingen1:09:05

       Yeah.

    5. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:09:05

       We were talking about the stress response and how that's intimately linked with the way that we move.

    6. LLLawrence van Lingen1:09:11

       Yeah.

    7. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:09:11

       Okay. So I don't think we actually expanded on those terms. So it's really, really interesting, this stuff, okay?

    8. LLLawrence van Lingen1:09:17

       Yeah.

    9. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:09:17

       And it, and it relates to breathing-

    10. LLLawrence van Lingen1:09:19

        Yeah

    11. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:09:19

        ... which a lot of people have questions on. So can you-- c- let's go back to that. We're talking about the relationship between the way that we move and our stress levels and our stress response system. What are tonic muscles, what are phasic muscles, and why should we even care about these things?

    12. LLLawrence van Lingen1:09:36

        Uh, so I think, y-you know, one of the things we just touched on with strength is this compartmentalization. We're not compartments. We-- everything interacts with itself. And so, um, the interrelation, the interrelatedness of all of this, or the human is a system. And so for the listeners now, don't, don't, um, [laughs] we'll go through some technique. We'll keep it relatively simple. The, the big takeaway with this is how the different systems start to interrelate with each other, 'cause I don't think it's something that we're kinda taught at medical school.

    13. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:10:07

        Mm.

    14. LLLawrence van Lingen1:10:07

        And I don't think it's something that most people are very good at or have a high level of awareness, right? Um, so we have tonic muscles, which are your postural muscles and often breathing muscles. So an example, a, a very famous muscle is your psoas muscle, is a tonic muscle. Your hamstrings are a tonic muscle. They help support your posture. Um, and a tonic muscle is more slow twitch, so it's... um, because it's endurance-based. So you have to hold your posture up for a relatively long period of time, so there's a lot of, um, slow twitch muscle fibers so that they're endurance-based muscles.

    15. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:10:41

        Okay.

    16. LLLawrence van Lingen1:10:42

        Okay? And that's your tonic muscle. And when tonic muscles become dysfunctional, they tend to have a lot of tone, so that's easy to remember, and they tend to be reactive, so tight reactive muscle. So a lot of people have tight reactive hamstrings. A lot of people have tight reactive psoas muscles, okay? The opposition sort of muscle of that is your phasic muscles, and phasic muscles are your movement muscles. So the quick animated, I'm moving my hands, how do I get forward, how do I go somewhere in life, are phasic. Your glute max and glute medius are phasic muscles.

    17. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:11:12

        So your butt muscles.

    18. LLLawrence van Lingen1:11:13

        Your butt muscles, yeah. And so really simplistically, the muscles, your hip flexors are tonic, and your hip extensors are phasic. So you can almost think like, uh... It's not quite this simple, so someone that really understands is gonna say, "Well, that's too simplistic." I'm just, just but for the sake of getting somewhere with this conversation. The muscles in the front of your hips are tonic, and the muscles at the back are phasic.

    19. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:11:36

        Okay.

    20. LLLawrence van Lingen1:11:37

        Okay. The important part is when phasic muscles are dysfunctional, they become weak or inhibited. Your core muscles are also phasic because you're using your core to twist and animate quite rapidly.

    21. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:11:48

        So this idea that many people have sleepy butt muscles-

    22. LLLawrence van Lingen1:11:51

        Yeah

    23. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:11:52

        ... fits in here.

    24. LLLawrence van Lingen1:11:52

        Yeah, or weak core. [laughs]

    25. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:11:54

        Weak core and weak butt muscles.

    26. LLLawrence van Lingen1:11:57

        Butt muscles, yeah.

    27. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:11:58

        These are phasic muscles-

    28. LLLawrence van Lingen1:12:00

        That are prone to being inhibited.

    29. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:12:02

        Prone to-

    30. LLLawrence van Lingen1:12:02

        So you gotta, instead of... So people will obsess with trying to strengthen their glutes, and it doesn't work. I mean, you know, I, I guarantee you this is resonating with so much of you. [laughs] So many of people in the audience is like, "You know, I do a ton of core and a ton of butt exercises, and I have weak core and weak glutes." Well, they're being inhibited by your tonic muscles. The tight reactive tonic muscles that tend to lock on and hold on for a long period of time are stopping your phasic muscles from moving.
15. 1:23:06 – 1:37:30

    Practical toolkit: Flow rope patterns, tire walking, and the ‘happy hip hack’

    1. LLLawrence van Lingen1:23:06

       Yeah. As soon as you learn some of the basic patterns, like, let's say it's really important that you can swing the flow rope backwards in a figure of eight, and most people, if you, if you're sympathetic, or if you've got an imbalance in your tonic and phasic system, you probably like chopping down 'cause you're gonna be flexion based, and you won't want to extend. So you won't-

    2. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:23:26

       Yeah

    3. LLLawrence van Lingen1:23:27

       ... when you swing the rope, you're chopping down, and you're not swinging it backwards or, or underhand. So it's really important to get the underhand figure of eight pattern down with a flow rope. If you pick up... And you can swing any rope, a jump rope, a skipping rope. You can swing, um, a towel. You can swing TheraCords. You can swing a pair of sweatpants. It doesn't really matter if you enjoy it.

    4. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:23:47

       It's just easier with the flow rope.

    5. LLLawrence van Lingen1:23:49

       Yeah.

    6. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:23:49

       Yeah.

    7. LLLawrence van Lingen1:23:49

       If you enjoy it, then get one, you know. But anyway, so you, you're swinging the flow rope. If you can swing it backwards in a figure of eight pattern, that's the most important thing. We really like the dragon roll for running. Um, I know a lot of your, your listeners run.

    8. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:24:03

       Is that... Can I ask?

    9. LLLawrence van Lingen1:24:03

       Yeah.

    10. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:24:03

        'Cause I, I learned that off YouTube-

    11. LLLawrence van Lingen1:24:05

        Yeah

    12. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:24:05

        ... about a month ago, right?

    13. LLLawrence van Lingen1:24:06

        Yeah.

    14. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:24:07

        And I love it, okay?

    15. LLLawrence van Lingen1:24:09

        Yeah.

    16. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:24:09

        Is it drag and roll, or is it dragon roll?

    17. LLLawrence van Lingen1:24:13

        Um, I didn't invent the dragon roll, so I think it's a dragon roll, but you teach it as drag and then roll, so it's both.

    18. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:24:20

        Got it. And guys-

    19. LLLawrence van Lingen1:24:21

        Yeah

    20. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:24:21

        ... for anyone who wants to know how to do this stuff, like, you've got a YouTube channel with all these how-tos on there, right?

    21. LLLawrence van Lingen1:24:28

        Yeah, yeah.

    22. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:24:28

        So your YouTube channel-

    23. LLLawrence van Lingen1:24:29

        Yeah

    24. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:24:29

        ... has literally got-

    25. LLLawrence van Lingen1:24:30

        Yeah

    26. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:24:30

        ... all-

    27. LLLawrence van Lingen1:24:30

        How to make a flow rope, how to swing the flow rope, how to, um, get the flow rope to help you with the timing and gait patterns and movements.

    28. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:24:37

        One thing we haven't done yet-

    29. LLLawrence van Lingen1:24:38

        Yeah

    30. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:24:38

        ... we're gonna do after this conversation, and we're gonna film it-
16. 1:37:30 – 1:50:41

    Screens and posture: ‘email apnea,’ vision, neck load, and flexibility

    1. LLLawrence van Lingen1:37:30

       Yeah

    2. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:37:30

       ... our lives as adults. I'm interested in your perspective on screens. What is the impact of screen use? What happens to our eyes, to our neck, to our hamstrings? What is the impact on our muscles? 'Cause I think a lot of the time we're talking about screens through the lens of, um, what is the content people are consuming-

    3. LLLawrence van Lingen1:37:55

       Yeah

    4. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:37:55

       ... on their screens. That's a valid point.What is the impact on our circadian rhythms by looking at these bright, uh, lights into the evening-

    5. LLLawrence van Lingen1:38:05

       Yeah

    6. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:38:05

       ... when we're not designed to look at bright lights in the evening? Okay.

    7. LLLawrence van Lingen1:38:08

       Yeah.

    8. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:38:08

       So, uh, content circadian disruption, that I've spoken about quite a bit on this show.

    9. LLLawrence van Lingen1:38:15

       Yeah.

    10. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:38:15

        But I think you have quite a fresh perspective on the impact that screens are having on our movement.

    11. LLLawrence van Lingen1:38:21

        Yeah. So I, I think two sort of central things is, um, the ability to do hard things and our serotonin levels and our hormone levels, which I'm, I'm sure you've discussed as well, is, is profound. So I think a lot of people are losing a sense of agency and a, the ability to do things and a, as a sort of level of focus, which is-

    12. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:38:40

        What, because it's too easy to be distracted by your screen?

    13. LLLawrence van Lingen1:38:43

        Yeah. You get cheap serotonin hits.

    14. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:38:45

        Yeah.

    15. LLLawrence van Lingen1:38:46

        And, um, you know, so it's just, just on a... And you just end up in a feedback loop. I mean, how many times have you picked your phone up, checked your emails, checked your messages, gone onto Instagram, then there's nothing there for you, so what do you do? You check your email, check your... You know, you're just cycling through apps.

    16. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:39:03

        I, I, I was thinking-

    17. LLLawrence van Lingen1:39:03

        So you're in, in this crazy feedback loop of, of doing nothing and-

    18. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:39:08

        And you think you've done something. [laughs]

    19. LLLawrence van Lingen1:39:10

        You think... Well, it's stressful because humans are actually partly prey, not just predators. You know, we like to think we apex [laughs] the apex of the species on the planet, but, you know, wait until you encounter a lion in the wild, and you'll very quickly realize, like, you're not an apex predator, right?

    20. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:39:25

        [laughs]

    21. LLLawrence van Lingen1:39:26

        So, so we like to, um, immerse ourselves in our environment and make sure our environment's safe. So just think of, you know, you, you look at an Instagram post, and you're transported to Africa. Part of your brain is like, "Oh, this is a new environment. What's the threat? Am I okay?" You know what I mean? Like, it's-

    22. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:39:42

        Yeah

    23. LLLawrence van Lingen1:39:42

        ... it's not just looking. You can be exhausted after work- being on your phone. And, and, and there's... I don't wanna get... uh, what I want to get into is the eye and the movement and your posture, which is kind of what you're asking, but also this notion of, um, we know that people's reflexes, people's ability to play sport diminish after being on the phone.

    24. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:40:01

        I don't even think we know the long-term consequences here-

    25. LLLawrence van Lingen1:40:04

        No

    26. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:40:04

        ... right?

    27. LLLawrence van Lingen1:40:04

        [laughs]

    28. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:40:05

        Um, of being able to be easily distracted-

    29. LLLawrence van Lingen1:40:08

        Yes

    30. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:40:08

        ... because it's also what are you not doing with that time?
17. 1:50:41 – 2:07:13

    Wrap-up: integrating systems, building trust, and where to find Lawrence’s resources

    1. LLLawrence van Lingen1:50:41

       Yeah, but it comes back to... So it just ties in beautifully. When people are tight and tension, they tend to move in a disconnected way, and when it's disconnected, it lights up in your brain as multiple moving parts, and movement is complicated.

    2. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:50:55

       Mm-hmm.

    3. LLLawrence van Lingen1:50:55

       And so, like when you work with people and, and let's say you, and you just, you start with backward walking, one of the things you're integrating your joints, you're making movement simpler, you're tying the dots together. So what'll happen is when you really get this right and you run down the road, it won't be busy and there won't be a lot of moving parts. It'll feel like one thing. So everything starts to fit together and become one in your mind-

    4. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:51:17

       Mm

    5. LLLawrence van Lingen1:51:17

       ... because it's integrated, becomes one, and then you become better at thinking in systems. So, you know, someone was asking me, "Lo- Lawrence, how did I end up where I ended up?" It's by working on yourself and integrating your body and learning to move better, and the more, the better you move as a system, the better you are at systems thinking, and system thinking is very, very hard for most people.

    6. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:51:40

       Yeah.

    7. LLLawrence van Lingen1:51:40

       You- what you do have to do is you have to know the basics really well.

    8. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:51:43

       Yeah.

    9. LLLawrence van Lingen1:51:43

       I think I told you when I met Dan Lieberman and, you know, I had dinner with him, it was extraordinary, life-changing at the time, and I realized like, I really need to know my anatomy better.

    10. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:51:52

        What was it about meeting Dan that was so life-changing for you?

    11. LLLawrence van Lingen1:51:56

        One, he's curious and playful.

    12. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:51:58

        Yeah. He's a, he's a great guy.

    13. LLLawrence van Lingen1:51:59

        You know, and you-- I-- So I just realized, like this guy's having fun and he loves what he does.

    14. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:52:04

        Yeah.

    15. LLLawrence van Lingen1:52:05

        You know, and that's why the quality of his work's so extraordinary and it's gonna last for times, you know? And people like misrepresent him and misquote him and project all stuff onto him. He's having fun, and he truly loves what he does, and he loves teaching, he loves being in help. So that was a big thing. Um, his, his whole perspective on how important evolution we are-- Like, so a lot of what we're talking about, if you just go Dan Lieberman mode, it's a mismatch of evolution. We haven't caught up and adapted to the technology and the food and the diet that we, we live. We haven't, you know, so it's, it's the evolution sort of mis- mismatch. Um, and the other one was, was how structured and routine his life was, and with kind of a lot of thought. So he, he-- I can't remember how far his house was from work, but he, he specifically bought a house, uh, that was, let's say, 20 or 40 minutes away from work, walking distance, so that he could walk to work and back every day because that's-- walking for him is really, really important. So that's where he gathers his thoughts, prepares for his lecture, you know, the creativity and thinking. So, um, and, and his day, his routine, you know, his pretty simple life and just very, very productive-

    16. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:53:10

        Yeah

    17. LLLawrence van Lingen1:53:10

        ... and sort of non-negotiables. An hour breakfast with his family in the morning, 90 minutes supper with his family in the evening.

    18. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:53:17

        Mm-hmm.

    19. LLLawrence van Lingen1:53:18

        You know, walk to work, walk back from work, like, so I don't know. He was just a true, true inspiration, and kinda like you [laughs] saw something in me that I didn't see in myself.

    20. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:53:27

        Why is it, do you think, that Dan and me can see things in you that you weren't able to see in yourself or didn't have the trust in yourself?

    21. LLLawrence van Lingen1:53:37

        Um, uh, yeah, a lot. You know, growing up, childhood, I lost my mother when I was 11. You know, boarding school, being bullied a little bit. I don't know, society. Like I think Rick Rubin says, like so your job as an artist is to sort of break through all the obstacles that society's beaten into you, you know, if you wanna think clearly. So I don't know. Um...

    22. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:54:03

        Do you have more trust in yourself these days?

    23. LLLawrence van Lingen1:54:05

        Oh, yeah. I, you know, my-- One of the reasons I'm so passionate about what I'm doing, and I want to really start working on my influencing [laughs] and my YouTube and, and get this content out there, is it's been totally, totally life-changing for me. I mean, I'm 54 now, and I run better than I've ever run in my entire life. I love running more. I move better. I feel so much more confident and comfortable in who I am, in my authenticity. It's so incredibly rewarding-

    24. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:54:31

        Mm

    25. LLLawrence van Lingen1:54:31

        ... when you start getting this right, and I wish that for everyone.

    26. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:54:35

        Yeah.

    27. LLLawrence van Lingen1:54:35

        And, and y- not, not in a way you must, and I'm telling you to do this.

    28. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:54:39

        No.

    29. LLLawrence van Lingen1:54:39

        I'm just saying, come on in, the water's great, and if we can just slowly, one person at a time, on a deeply authentic level, start to live better, you know, we can just heal the planet or, or, or make the world a better place.

    30. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:54:52

        Yeah.

Episode duration: 2:07:13