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Dr Rangan ChatterjeeDr Rangan Chatterjee

Before You Die With Regret: The Life Lessons Everyone Learns Too Late | Oliver Burkeman

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee and Oliver Burkeman on Finitude over frenzy: embracing limits to escape modern time overwhelm.

Oliver BurkemanguestDr. Rangan Chatterjeehost
Apr 20, 20221h 37mWatch on YouTube

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Transcript

  1. 0:00 – 0:31

    The danger of waiting for “real life” to start

    1. OB

      If you don't commit to relationships or projects or to a career or to a place where you live, it feels like you're holding all the potential inside yourself. There's a terrible danger in telling yourself real life hasn't begun yet.

    2. RC

      Yeah.

    3. OB

      Point is, you already are making a choice. That time is still gone, and you've decided to use those years that we will never get again in one way rather than another way. The only time management technique worth its salt is make time now.

  2. 0:31 – 2:58

    Why “4,000 weeks” is scary at first—and liberating when accepted

    1. RC

      Your latest book, Four Thousand Weeks, makes you think. Uh, my calculation based upon what you're writing about is that I have around 1,700 to 1,800 weeks left on planet Earth.

    2. OB

      Mm-hmm.

    3. RC

      But then this morning I also calculated it in terms of holidays. So I thought if I take one really nice holiday a year, then I've potentially only got 35 or 36 holidays left.

    4. OB

      Mm-hmm.

    5. RC

      What was your hope when you came up with this concept of Four Thousand Weeks? Is that something that you found to be scary for people or quite enlightening and, I guess, liberating?

    6. OB

      I mean, I think it is scary at first, right? Especially that figure, which is the, it's a little bit less than the average human lifespan. I blatantly chose 4,000 because it's a round number, you know. Um, and of course, you know, nobody knows they're gonna get that much. They might get significantly more. They might tragically get a lot less. So y- it's sort of illustrative-

    7. RC

      Yeah

    8. OB

      ... rather than any kind of fact. What is definitely true about the amount of time that you'll get is that it will be finite rather than limitless, and that's really the, you know, sounds obvious, but I don't think we live properly in the, uh, in the acknowledgement of what that, of what that really means. So yeah, at first it's stressful 'cause you're like, "Okay, either I'm gonna feel really despairing about this or I've got to really strenuously try to make the most of every day in a way that actually is not very relaxing at all, but kind of awful." What I'm trying to guide people towards is that once you sort of really truly accept this fact of being finite, it is actually really liberating and it is a relief. For as long as you are responding to th- this idea of having a limited amount of time with stress, like, "Oh my God, I've got to try to get a huge amount out of my life-

    9. RC

      Yeah

    10. OB

      ... because there's so little of it," you still haven't quite taken on board the implication of it. Which is like, no, we're all in the same boat. There will always be too much to do. There will always be more ambitions that you can think of than you could ever put into practice. Always be more obligations you can feel from the society or from your family or whatever than you could ever fulfill. And that's really relaxing, 'cause then it's like, "Oh, okay, I don't have to try to do this impossible thing with my life."

    11. RC

      Yeah.

    12. OB

      "I can just focus on doing something really meaningful and possible."

  3. 2:58 – 5:19

    Saying no to what you want: choosing “some things that matter”

    1. RC

      Uh, I think you're right. I think it really is liberating. One of the ideas that deeply, deeply resonated with me in the book, this, this actually helped me make some big life decisions over the past few months, is this idea that, yes, we have to get good at saying no to things. But I thought your argument took it one step further, because there's this kind of, I guess, underlying premise that we have to get good at saying no because some things actually are just the wrong things. So actually let's not even bring them into our life in the first place. But you go one step further and go, actually, no. It's not just about saying no to things that you don't want to do and don't nourish you. You've actually also got to say no to things that you do want to do.

    2. OB

      Yeah, totally. Because, I mean-

    3. RC

      Which is mind-blowing, actually.

    4. OB

      [laughs]

    5. RC

      It really is.

    6. OB

      Yeah. No, I, I mean, it, it has been for me as well, right? 'Cause I think in the, in the, in the background of all the stuff you hear all the time about how important it is to say no, there's this implication, as you say, you could just, if you did that, you could just say no to all the things that are kind of tedious chores-

    7. RC

      Yeah

    8. OB

      ... all the things that don't quite work for you, and then your life would just be exactly properly fitted to the, like, like the time you would have would be exactly fitted to all the things that really matter in your life, and you'd live this sort of perfect, this perfect match. But there's no reason to assume that the, the, the sort of field of things that matter or that feel like they matter is only gonna be big enough to fill the time you've got, rather than exceeding it, right? I think there's, there's always gonna be more things that feel like they matter because the world is full of like, you know, countless opportunities and countless people suffering who need our help and countless good causes and, you know, countless interesting places to visit. All of these. There's just, there's just an endless amount. So why on earth would you ever expect that you could fit all of the ones that you cared about-

    9. RC

      Yeah

    10. OB

      ... into your life? But we do. Like, I mean, we do-

    11. RC

      We do

    12. OB

      ... expect that sort of chronically. I think that is actually another of these examples of something that is really liberating because you can see that you don't have to fight to somehow make time for everything that matters, that that's kind of a futile quest. You just have to make time for some things that matter and let it go that it's not gonna be everything.

  4. 5:19 – 8:06

    Social media, infinite exposure, and the pain of missed possibilities

    1. RC

      'Cause otherwise I guess you, you go on that nice holiday, I don't know, let's take a mythical destination like the Maldives or Bali, right?

    2. OB

      Mm-hmm.

    3. RC

      But then you could arrive back to wherever you live and see online that someone's posted a gorgeous sunrise photo in Mexico.

    4. OB

      Right.

    5. RC

      Right?

    6. OB

      Right.

    7. RC

      So you were in Bali or the Maldives-

    8. OB

      Mm-hmm

    9. RC

      ... but you weren't in Mexico, so therefore, oh man, I need to see that sunrise in Mexico at some point. There's always a sense that actually, yeah, this is great, but I could be doing something more.

    10. OB

      Mm-hmm.

    11. RC

      Do you feel that the age of the internet and- I guess social media, uh, the fact that we're being exposed to so much possibility now that appears to be infinite possibility. So we always feel that our life is somehow a bit mundane 'cause we're not doing all these incredible things-

    12. OB

      Yeah

    13. RC

      ... that we could be doing.

    14. OB

      Totally. I mean, a lot of these places to visit and things to do have always existed, but now you're sort of relentlessly exposed to them. Algorithms find specifically the ones you are gonna want to really do and, and sort of constantly, uh, bombard you with, with just those ones. So yeah, we are in a, a situation that's completely unprecedented in terms of letting us see and sort of feel the pain of not being able to do. I mean, another good example, we talk about beautiful holidays, vacations, that's a great example. But kind of good causes is another one too, right?

    15. RC

      Yeah.

    16. OB

      I mean, if you're the kind of compassionately minded person who sits on social media and wants to sort of help people in the world who are suffering, you're seeing more instances of that and hearing about-

    17. RC

      Mm

    18. OB

      ... more instances of that than like the greatest saints in history ever-

    19. RC

      Yeah

    20. OB

      ... were ever exposed to. And, you know, it's great if you can do something about one or two of them, but the idea that you could ever sort of get your arms around all that, that we're just not designed to be capable of it.

    21. RC

      Yeah. In my book on happiness, I, I wrote a chapter on eliminating choice.

    22. OB

      Mm-hmm.

    23. RC

      That we, in a, in a world of infinite choice, more choice is not necessarily a good thing. In fact, we've gotta get good at choosing when that choice actually matters.

    24. OB

      Yeah.

    25. RC

      And I see a, a similar theme to that throughout your book, this idea that you can't actually care about everything. You can't put your attention there. The state of the world at the moment, many people are getting really, really affected in their, their day-to-day life by what they're being exposed to in the news.

    26. OB

      Mm-hmm.

    27. RC

      And there was a gorgeous bit in your book where you really mentioned that actually, yes, there can be all kinds of adversity going on, and problems which you may be being exposed to in the news, but you may choose to actually go and care for an elderly relative, or you may choose to go and actually care and do something good in the world in, in a different way that doesn't actually address that problem.

    28. OB

      Yeah.

    29. RC

      You know, I thought that was really quite an interesting way of looking at it.

  5. 8:06 – 11:35

    Caring locally vs. identifying with the global scale

    1. OB

      Well, I just think, I feel very strongly about this 'cause I really do think that there's this great temptation, especially when we spend so much of a day immersed in social media or just news in other forms. You, you come to sort of identify with that global level of things, and you come to think of wars and the climate and things a- as, you know, and they are incredibly important, and the climate perhaps most important of all. But you, you come to think of that as being the only level on which you can have a meaningful effect, when in many ways it's the only level on which us as individuals can have almost no effect in, in many contexts. You know, you can, you can give money, you can live more ethically, absolutely, but, but it's, i- it's almost like we're deliberately exposing ourselves most to that level of life at which our impact can be the, the smallest. And then you end up sort of devaluing all these other things that are completely, like ought to be part of, uh, the definition of spending your life meaningfully, right?

    2. RC

      Yeah.

    3. OB

      Caring for relatives, doing something to help make your little neighborhood more beautiful instead of only thinking on this sort of cosmic scale and global scale. Not because those global causes are not as important as we thought they were. I think they are that important. It's just that, you know, if, if the way you respond to that is suddenly thinking that you have got to sort of get your arms around it all, then that's just, it's just not gonna help anyway, right?

    4. RC

      Yeah. Not only does it not help, it actually then impacts your life and your circle of influence because if you're that affected by it-

    5. OB

      Mm-hmm

    6. RC

      ... it's very hard to be present in your life. It's very hard for that not to affect the quality of your work-

    7. OB

      Right

    8. RC

      ... the quality of your relationships-

    9. OB

      Yeah

    10. RC

      ... your ability to parent-

    11. OB

      Yeah

    12. RC

      ... as well as you might want to.

    13. OB

      Yeah.

    14. RC

      And actually, there's so much in the world that we actually can't do anything about. And again, I think there's a freedom in just acknowledging that. And that's, that's the big theme I keep getting in your book, is this idea that there are limits.

    15. OB

      Mm-hmm.

    16. RC

      There are limits to what we can do with our time. There are limits to what we can care about. And this idea that these ideas and these concepts are limitless-

    17. OB

      Mm-hmm

    18. RC

      ... is actually part of the problem.

    19. OB

      Right. We are finite creatures existing in this world of infinite inputs and opportunities and suffering and, and all the rest of it. So there's always gonna be this mismatch, and I think what we spend a lot of our lives doing without realizing it is trying to like get over that-

    20. RC

      Yeah

    21. OB

      ... fundamental mathematical fact. [laughs] And, and you know, we've talked a lot about leisure, and we've talked about doing good and compassionate activities, but the most obvious one for most people on a day-to-day basis, I think, is just work, right?

    22. RC

      Yeah.

    23. OB

      The volume of emails, the volume of things that the boss is asking you to do or that you want to do in your work. There's no reason why any of that should have any upper limit, and yet there's a very, very clear upper limit to how much you can do in a day's work and how many emails you can answer and, and how many demands you can meet.

    24. RC

      Email's an interesting one, isn't it? Because again, if we think back to communication maybe 20 years ago-

    25. OB

      Yeah, yeah

    26. RC

      ... maybe 30 years ago-

    27. OB

      Yeah

    28. RC

      ... a lot of the way we got communication or received it was the letterbox in the morning, right? The mail would come once a day, and any important documentation or anything you had to look at would be in that.

    29. OB

      Yeah.

    30. RC

      Sure, you might get some phone calls at work potentially, but it wasn't like a constant stream. It's, you know, email [laughs] is this, it's like the postman's coming-

  6. 11:35 – 15:47

    From productivity obsession to realizing the “wrong game”

    1. RC

      So there's no kind of switch off from that. And I mean, before we get into emails, I think what's really interesting to me is how you came into writing about time and our relationship to time because from the research I've done, it appears that you were keen to learn all these productivity tools and actually-

    2. OB

      Oh, yeah

    3. RC

      ... get better-

    4. OB

      Yeah

    5. RC

      ... at managing your time and getting the most, squeezing the most out of every ounce of time. You know, tell me a little bit about that journey, and at what point did you realize, actually ... I'm playing the wrong game here.

    6. OB

      [laughs]

    7. RC

      Like, this is actually futile.

    8. OB

      Yeah, it took a long time to get it through my thick skull, apparently. But one of the things I did was I wrote this column for The Guardian for years, a weekly column on psychology, where one of the things I did was to test out a lot of these kinds of, of techniques, and that was really useful and interesting, and I'm really glad I had the opportunity, but it was also a little bit enabling of my worst side in a way, right? Here I was thinking that I was one day gonna find the perfect set of productivity techniques and time management techniques that was gonna, like, make me capable of doing everything-

    9. RC

      Yeah

    10. OB

      ... and not have to say no to anything and not have to worry that I was letting anybody down and all of this, and then I had this job where I could justify trying out, like, another 50 new techniques and-

    11. RC

      [laughs]

    12. OB

      ... and getting hold of another 20 books or courses on the topic 'cause it was for work, and actually that was really useful in the end, right? You sort of get to a point where you're thinking, "Well, okay, this is like the 100th way I've tried to structure my to-do list or organize my day, and it isn't bringing me the thing that I, I'm trying to get out of it, so maybe," as you say, "maybe I'm, I'm playing the wrong game here rather than that I just haven't found the right technique." And it's not that these techniques are all rubbish. It's that if you come at them with what I think a lot of people come at them with, including me then, which is this desire to somehow feel totally on top of time and on top of your life and not to have to make difficult decisions about time anymore 'cause you can just handle everything and really feeling secure about your role in your work and time and all the rest of it. If you think you're gonna get that out of them, you're gonna fail because what that is ultimately, deep down, I think, is a desire to not be limited by time in the way that we all are as, as humans. It's a desire to, to sort of avoid the fact that, yeah, limited time means you have to make tough choices. You have to not do things that, that would matter in, in order to do other things. You have to neglect certain potential friendships you could be nurturing in order to focus on some other relationships in your life. You just have to 'cause we're just finite. And we, and especially me back then, I think, think that a lot of this productivity time management stuff-

    13. RC

      Yeah

    14. OB

      ... and other kinds of personal development advice, we think that they're like a backdoor to get around that and, and that just leads to more stress 'cause they're not.

    15. RC

      Yeah. It, it's really beautifully put. I'm drawn to this line towards the start of the book. "The more you try to manage your time with the goal of achieving a feeling of total control and freedom from the inevitable constraints of being human, the more stressful, empty, and frustrating life gets." I mean, I think that kind of says it all.

    16. OB

      Uh, yeah. Thank you. Yes. I hope so. I mean, and there's a flip side to it, right, which is that when you then ... What that implies is that when you can ease up on that desire for control-

    17. RC

      Mm

    18. OB

      ... and for this kind of unrealistic control, that's when you really do step into a kind of real agency. That's when you can do meaningful and joyful and cool things with your life, right?

    19. RC

      Mm-hmm.

    20. OB

      So it's not just a matter of this thing you're trying to do is impossible.

    21. RC

      Yeah.

    22. OB

      Give up. Live life in despair because there's no point. [laughs] It's like, no, that's the bit that if you can drop that or at least somewhat drop that sort of constant worried, anxious attempt to bring the world under your control so you can feel okay about it, if you can let go of that, that's when you can really, like-

    23. RC

      Yeah

    24. OB

      ... plunge into life and do stuff that, that counts and that matters to you because you're no longer wasting all your time and attention on that, on that pointless quest.

  7. 15:47 – 20:25

    Constraints as freedom: creativity, priorities, and distraction’s false limitlessness

    1. RC

      You know, constraints in life, I've come to realize more and more, are actually very freeing and, and liberating and actually ... can actually, I guess, foster a lot of creativity.

    2. OB

      Yeah.

    3. RC

      As you were describing the impact of that sentence, I was drawn to this interview I heard in the '90s.

    4. OB

      Mm-hmm.

    5. RC

      I don't know if you, uh, enjoyed the band Crowded House. I very much did in the '90s. One of my favorite bands back then. And I remember Neil Finn, the singer and songwriter in the band, I remember once in an interview he said, "Yes, there are infinite instruments and musical themes and ideas we could bring in for any song, but we've decided that we're only gonna put on the album what the four of us are able to play." And, you know, some of them could play multiple instruments. They could play that in the studio, but they weren't gonna bring in additional session musicians with their expertise to put in a saxophone solo here-

    6. OB

      Right

    7. RC

      ... or put something else in here. You know, that was what? About 30 years ago when I heard that interview, but it always stayed with me because, as a musician myself, I've always been tempted to try and actually bring in lots of other stuff. "Oh, no, we could get that. We could get that."

    8. OB

      Mm-hmm.

    9. RC

      "Oh, wouldn't it be great to have a sax solo here?" Or whatever.

    10. OB

      Mm-hmm.

    11. RC

      In anything you're recording or, or, or creating. And I always think back to that going, "No, the constraints bring the creativity."

    12. OB

      Yeah.

    13. RC

      He beautifully articulated how actually, no, the fact that it's only us four means we have to be more creative. We have to figure out solutions.

    14. OB

      Mm-hmm.

    15. RC

      I see kind of quite a similar theme here. Once we put the limits on our time and know actually time is limited-

    16. OB

      Mm

    17. RC

      ... within that constraint, I think we can flourish and I guess be more creative.

    18. OB

      I totally, totally agree, and I think in creativity it's often a matter of it bringing in those constraints like you're talking about there, and then sometimes in our daily time it's just a matter of seeing that the constraints are there in a sort of non-negotiable way whether we like it or not. And I think, yes, I think when we do the opposite to that, which is either try to sort of get over all constraints or to behave as if there aren't any constraints, it, it can feel it's the more comfortable path at first sometimes, but it, it leads nowhere good because it is so out of touch with reality that that's when you're gonna apportion your time wrongly-

    19. RC

      Yeah

    20. OB

      ... 'cause you're gonna think, "Well, f- first of all, I'll answer 100 emails before I get around to what really matters to me today." Well, if that's because you think you've got more time than you have, [laughs] if you understood that you didn't, you might switch those two things around, spend the first part of the day on the thing that you cared about the most. That's just one example, but it's just a way of acting that respects the constraints that you're already in. And I don't know if you wanna talk about, like, distraction at some point 'cause it's a topic that slightly obsesses me. I think a lot of the th- of what we're doing when we sort of bounce away from our ... important work or difficult conversations or whatever it is into just scrolling down the phone-

    21. RC

      Yeah

    22. OB

      ... just escaping into the world of cyberspace. It is because it feels there, like there are no constraints. It is 'cause it feels like you're just sort of floating through this easy world of-

    23. RC

      Yeah

    24. OB

      ... of limitless, like, godlike power. But we all know, you know, after a day spent doing that instead of the thing that you knew you meant to do, like, it's not the way to get a purchase on life. It's not a way to, like, m- make a difference in a way that counts.

    25. RC

      Well, and maybe that's the appeal. Maybe because we don't recognize there are limitations in our life, and so therefore we don't acknowledge it, we don't accept it, maybe that's why scrolling and disappearing down rabbit holes online feels so good, because in that moment there does appear to be infinite possibility.

    26. OB

      Yeah.

    27. RC

      And maybe we sense a kind of slight disconnect that in our real life-

    28. OB

      Mm-hmm

    29. RC

      ... the offline world, there are limitations. But online there doesn't appear to be any.

    30. OB

      No, I think that's exactly the, that phenomenology, the feeling-

  8. 20:25 – 22:51

    Bucket lists, “existential overwhelm,” and why more fun options still overwhelm

    1. RC

      Given that time is limited and we can't do everything that we might want to do in life, are you a fan of bucket lists?

    2. OB

      Depends what you mean, right?

    3. RC

      Yeah.

    4. OB

      Depends how you relate to your bucket list. If a bucket list is something you've got to get through, then no, I'm not a fan of it. If it's a list of, if it's like a menu of things that you might do, great. That kind of list for those sort of things i- is fantastic. I think the problem with bucket lists, it's basically the same problem as an overfilled email inbox or an incredibly long list of, like, housework chores you've got to do. It feels like it isn't the same problem, 'cause it's a list of fun stuff instead of, like, onerous, weighty stuff, but the same problem arises that we're exposed to far more opportunities-

    5. RC

      Yeah

    6. OB

      ... for things that feel like we wanna do them than we'll get to do. And it's almost harder to spot in the case of hedonistic type things because y- again, you know, like, o- on some level all of us are sort of annoyed by having various duties we don't wanna have to fulfill. But you think of things like that as like, okay, the world is my oyster. But I call it, in the book I call that, like, existential overwhelm, 'cause it's still overwhelm. It's just overwhelm that comes from being alive in the world that we have today, wanting to be limitless in the way that we do want.

    7. RC

      Yeah.

    8. OB

      And then constantly coming up against the fact that you are limited. So yeah, the person who's, like, retired and has tons of money and is using it all to travel the world, like, they will have a better time than the person who has to spend all day doing tedious chores they didn't want to do. But they'll still have this, like, gnawing, basic problem of feeling overwhelmed if they believe that they are ever going to sort of, like, get their arms around everything-

    9. RC

      Yeah

    10. OB

      ... that the world has to offer, see all the places that matter, have all the fun that there is to be had. It's like it's, it's beyond us.

    11. RC

      It-

    12. OB

      And it's stressful to pursue it because it's beyond us.

    13. RC

      It really is. I mean, you've quoted the Tao Te Ching on several occasions-

    14. OB

      Mm-hmm

    15. RC

      ... in the book. There's a phrase that certainly in the translation I have where it says, "Knowing what is enough is true wealth."

    16. OB

      [laughs]

    17. RC

      I kind of feel that really fits your entire book really, this idea that, you know, knowing what is enough, that's ... 'Cause, 'cause when we always want more we think, "Oh, when I go on that holiday," or, "When that happens," or, "When I get to inbox zero-"

    18. OB

      Right. Yeah

    19. RC

      ... as I believe you did at some point.

    20. OB

      Oh, yes.

  9. 22:51 – 26:19

    Email and the myth of Inbox Zero: efficiency creates more demand

    1. RC

      Um, well, well maybe, maybe let's go into email, because I think email is the source of a lot of overwhelm to people. And I do think that a lot of the productivity advice makes us feel that, oh, there is a way to master this-

    2. OB

      Mm-hmm

    3. RC

      ... and get on top. So I'm a, I'm a black belt at email.

    4. OB

      Mm-hmm.

    5. RC

      Actually reading your story with that has made me feel a lot better because I'm, I'm pretty rubbish at email. And I'm okay with that. And I've decided [laughs] I don't want to get good at it.

    6. OB

      [laughs]

    7. RC

      But as like, like, there are other things in my life-

    8. OB

      Yeah

    9. RC

      ... I would like to get good at, but-

    10. OB

      Right

    11. RC

      ... getting good at email is just not one of them. So maybe you could expand a little bit on getting to inbox zero. Maybe explain what that is to people who aren't aware. Uh, and then also, you know, what did that teach you?

    12. OB

      Well, it's controversial what it is. People in this world of productivity geekery argue about what that means.

    13. RC

      Okay.

    14. OB

      But I'm working on the assumption that it means something like the idea that the sort of default state of your email inbox should be empty. And so at least every so often, and a- arguably every day, you should be going through it, answering what you need to answer, dealing with what you need to deal with, deleting what you need to delete. It shouldn't be mounting up in this way that is so familiar to so many people with 10,000 unread messages-

    15. RC

      Yeah [laughs]

    16. OB

      ... on their, on their inbox indicator or whatever. The really important point to make, I think, about what happened when I really tried to get on top of email, is that when you get really good at getting through your email, what happens is that you get much more email, because firstly you reply to r- people more and at a quicker tempo, and so they get back to you at a quicker tempo with replies to your replies and, you know.

    17. RC

      [laughs]

    18. OB

      It's, you're busier that way. You get a reputation as being responsive on email.

    19. RC

      [laughs]

    20. OB

      Um, so more people email you, whereas if you sort of fail to res- reply often what happens is people find some other solution to the problem that they had. And it just really dramatizes this idea that the supply, the supply is infinite- Effectively. Um, your capacity to get through that supply of incoming emails, I mean, is very finite, and your attempt to get more efficient with processing that infinite supply won't get you to the end of it, because it's infinite, but it will get you, leave you more stressed and, and busy. And I think it's worth saying, there are probably some people, um, hearing this who are like, "Well, it's all very well for you," or maybe for me to say, "Well, I don't, I don't wanna get good at email." It's like, uh, somebody might say, "Well, like, in my job I'll get fired if I don't reply-

    21. RC

      Yeah

    22. OB

      ... to all the emails I get."

    23. RC

      I get that.

    24. OB

      But the, but the logic applies everywhere. I think that's the really important thing to try to zero in on, right? W- No matter what your position is or your job or your work, y- your time is finite, and if you are subjected in any part of that to an infinite supply of something [laughs] and you make it your business to get through that, that will end up taking over your-

    25. RC

      Yeah

    26. OB

      ... whole job. So I definitely sympathize with anyone who feels that they have to sort of keep an inbox zero just as a basic precondition of their work. But then they and their employer, whoever, is losing out on something else they could be giving in that situation because it is not actually possible to contain these infinite supplies-

    27. RC

      Mm

    28. OB

      ... these infinite inputs in the way that we think it, it ought to be. Or, you know, maybe you love email and you want to be someone who stays on top of all your email. Make that decision. But don't imagine that you're deciding to sort of keep it contained, and that's fine, and then you can get on with what really matters. No, if you, if you really focus on getting more and more efficient at an incoming supply of something that is actually limitless, then that will effectively take over your life. That's just, that's just how it works.

  10. 26:19 – 36:09

    Intentionality and the time-as-commodity trap: “You don’t have time”

    1. RC

      I guess what you're talking about, certainly to me, is intentionality about living an intentional life. Like, understanding that we're making choices all the time, and actually many of us are making choices that we don't even realize we're making.

    2. OB

      Right.

    3. RC

      Which, which I thought was really interesting.

    4. OB

      Yeah, I think this is like, this is, goes to the heart of it for me because it's tempting to think that in a book like this or lots of other people writing on this kind of topic that, that I'm saying, "Why don't you live a, a limited life?" Like, "Why don't you decide to live in a way that is finite instead of limitless?" And it's like, no, the point is you already are doing every day whether you like it or not. You already are making something like a choice-

    5. RC

      Mm

    6. OB

      ... uh, to, to sacrifice all sorts of things in favor of other things. That's already happening. The choice we have is whether to do that consciously or not. You are always choosing. It wouldn't be the case if you had eternal life, if you were limitless, if you were infinite, you know, because then there'd always be more time to try everything and to do everything. But because we're not, because we're finite, every choice you make is a choice not to do something else with that little portion of your finite time, and I think the freedom that we can aspire to, we can't be free of that situation, but the freedom we can aspire to is the freedom of making those decisions consciously and seeing like, "Okay, you know, I've decided that this matters more than this for today," and, and it's not because that other thing doesn't matter, it's because I've got to make a choice.

    7. RC

      At the start of the book, you talk about a lot of these productivity hacks, and you talk about some of these books that we've been exposed to over the years, like Tim Ferriss' The 4-Hour Workweek. And I've gotta be honest, for me, when I first read The 4-Hour Workweek, I don't know, 10 years ago, it was pretty life-changing for me because at that time in my life I had not come across something like that. And I mean, I think the title is just a super catchy title, but I don't think it's about working four hours a week. What I took from it was that, oh, time is a resource. It's a commodity that I can value as such, and I honestly think that was one of the first times in my life where I, I kind of saw time and, and suddenly started to measure it and value it, which I think was necessary for my progression-

    8. OB

      Mm-hmm

    9. RC

      ... to understand that actually maybe I need to defend my time a bit better, and maybe I need to think about how I use it or, you know, protect it or give it away, whatever that might be. But like with most messages, they're never perfect for everyone at every aspect of life. I think that worked for me back then, but I'm really fascinated by the argument you make in the book that even seeing time as a resource, as a commodity that we need to defend and protect, you're also making the case that even that is fundamentally problematic, and I think I agree. I think I really agree with what you're saying. So I think for me, what perhaps you could speak to that-

    10. OB

      Mm-hmm

    11. RC

      ... but I guess for me, that message that time is something I need to view differently absolutely worked for me 10 years ago, and now I feel that it's the next stage. It's like, okay, cool, now you're valuing time. [laughs] Now actually maybe the way you're experiencing time and, and looking at time isn't that helpful.

    12. OB

      Yeah, I mean, I just think both of these things are true. I, I-

    13. RC

      Yeah

    14. OB

      ... think there's, I think there's tons of huge value in The 4-Hour Workweek. I mean, one of the things that I think's so interesting about the focus of that book is, is, is on the idea of not deferring the, the sort of joy that you want to have in your life until some point in the future when-

    15. RC

      Yeah

    16. OB

      ... you're gonna be ready to have it. That seems... I like, I just agree with that completely, this idea of, I think he calls them mini retirements, right?

    17. RC

      Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    18. OB

      This idea that, like-

    19. RC

      He does

    20. OB

      ... how can, how can you spend three weeks this year doing one of these things that you're mentally postponing to some time that might not even arrive, you know, in several decades' time? No, do it now. I think that's absolutely bang on. I think that seeing time as a very precious resource i- is like, is like one lens that, that really counts because the alternative is to act like you've got all the time in the world.

    21. RC

      Yeah.

    22. OB

      And that is very dangerous. But yeah, as you say, there's this other lens which is, like, the whole notion of the sort of resource view of time, the idea that there's me and then there's some time that I have, a little bit like some money that I have or some physical possessions that I have or something, that it doesn't quite work and it leads us into some strange places. Because actually, you know, we don't have Time in that sense, right? You don't, you just get one moment at a time. You can't, you can't actually put time aside. You can't pause time. You can't decide to not spend the next minute of your life. Like, you're just living it. You're just in it. It's a fairly involved argument [chuckles] at that point in the book, but I think that the basic point here is just that if you try to take this attitude of making the best use of something, when in fact it's more like you just are a portion of time in some mysterious way, right? Let me see if I can convey this. It's like you're trying to get sort of on top of your own life. You're trying to, you're trying to be like the air traffic controller of things-

    23. RC

      Yeah

    24. OB

      ... somehow, and that sort of alienates you from actually being here, right here in the moment of your life. 'Cause everything, I mean, apart from anything else, everything becomes a question of like, "Am I using this hour best for," what is it? Some future goal. Um, to make the most money, to achieve this outcome I want, to please somebody who I think needs to be pleased in my life, you know. And if you're only asking about your time, am I using it in the right way for that future goal, it's almost impossible-

    25. RC

      Yeah

    26. OB

      ... to find it truly meaningful and absorbing in the moment because those are just two different, fundamentally different lenses, right? So in a way you almost have to be willing to waste time if what we mean by waste time is, is not be using it-

    27. RC

      Yeah

    28. OB

      ... in an instrumental way in order to use it well, which is a total weird paradox that I'm still trying to get my mind around, but.

    29. RC

      It, it's, these are, these are these big existential questions like who are we? What does it mean to live a good life, a meaningful life? I, I love the idea that if you're constantly analyzing and seeing, "Am I using my time well?" Yeah, you're not in your life.

    30. OB

      Right.

  11. 36:09 – 45:18

    Control, planning anxiety, and procrastination as avoidance of limits

    1. OB

      There's a writer who I quote in the book, David Cain, a Canadian writer and blogger who, whose work I really admire, who makes this point that like when you think you have like three hours to complete some project or say you've got to tidy the house and you've got half an hour to do it or something, you don't really have three hours or have half an hour. What you mean is you expect it. You, you, it means-

    2. RC

      Mm

    3. OB

      ... your, your best guess in the present moment now is that nothing's gonna get in your way until the three hours when the next thing's gonna happen or you have to go and pick up your kids from school, whatever. And that's actually a really deep contrast, that notion of like actually having time- Versus just say, "No, I expect it. I'm here in the present moment, and I believe that things are going to unfold in this, this way in the future." But I have n- none of us have any control over-

    4. RC

      Yeah

    5. OB

      ... the future. Like true control. And so because we want that control, because we want to be limitless about, in that sense as well, in the sense of being able to like dictate what's gonna be happening, that's just a constant recipe for anxiety. 'Cause our desire to control the, the next moment is, is rubbing up against the absolute knowledge that actually you, you can't. So, you know, if you're a sort of chronic worrier about trains and travel related things, which I definitely have some experience of, you sit there in the present moment, like hoping that you're gonna get to the station on time or hoping that the train's gonna arrive on time. And it feels in that moment like once that thing happens and it's on time, you're gonna be able to relax, but you're never gonna be able to relax 'cause then there's the next thing. Right? Then will the train arrive on time? Will your next, will, uh, will, uh, will there be a taxi if you need to get a taxi?

    6. RC

      And, and you, you say in the present moment, but you're not actually in the present moment-

    7. OB

      Right. No, exactly

    8. RC

      ... are you?

    9. OB

      Yeah. Right.

    10. RC

      Because you're, you're planning for the future-

    11. OB

      Right

    12. RC

      ... or and when that happens, so-

    13. OB

      And you're trying to like sort of reach out to the present moment and exert some control over the next one. Of course that's gonna be a recipe for anxiety 'cause like that's not possible. And I think it's fine to plan, right? It's fine to say, "Here's how I'd like today to go. Here's what, when I have some say in how today goes, I'm gonna steer it in this direction rather than that direction." Fine. But this idea that you're like controlling the future from the present, again, it's kind of a, it gets kind of deep, but I think it's, I think we're all prone to it.

    14. RC

      Yeah. It is deep, but I think it's such an important, it's an important point for us all to consider. I, I wonder, you know, procrastination is something that many people struggle with.

    15. OB

      Oh, yes.

    16. RC

      You know? [laughs]

    17. OB

      Me too. Yeah. Yeah. [laughs]

    18. RC

      Yeah. And I wonder, you know, what do you think is going on in procrastination? Do you think it's to do with this fact that we don't recognize the limitations of time, therefore we think there's infinite possibility, but there isn't? You know, how, how do you see procrastination?

    19. OB

      Yeah, I think it is related to that. I mean, I think there are lots of different flavors of procrastination. So there are people who are very afraid of failing. There are a few people who are very afraid of succeeding. There are people who have all sorts of other different psychodramas going on. We're all, we're all different and messed up in different ways. But the argument that I make that sort of brings all that or tries to bring all that together is that whenever you're procrastinating on something that matters to you, you are trying to avoid some kind of experience of encountering your limitations. You know, if I'm procrastinating on writing a chapter of a book, the reason that I'm not ... I mean, I care about that thing, and I don't particularly care about what I'm doing instead, which is probably like, you know, scrolling or, or you know, cleaning the kitchen when it doesn't really need cleaning as a displacement activity or something. So it seems at first weird that I would like want to procrastinate on the thing I care about rather than, and do the things I don't care about. But, but I think that's because, and again, I'll stick with this writing example just for a minute, for me to actually write a chapter is to risk that I don't have what it takes to write the chapter or I don't have enough time to finish the thing on deadline, or that it won't be well received by people who I would like to receive it well. All these kind of ways in which I can't control the experience are brought up when I'm doing something-

    20. RC

      Mm

    21. OB

      ... that I care about. And that makes it very tempting to just not go there. And if you are ... And that's, perfectionism is a big part of this and I feel like certainly historically that was like my problem to a T. Like the one way to feel totally in control of some project that you really care about in your life and like it just totally perfect still is never to start it. Right?

    22. RC

      Yeah.

    23. OB

      'Cause then you're just, you've got this beautiful mental image of this song you're gonna write or marriage you're gonna have, or house you're gonna find, or book you're gonna write, and it's pristine, and it doesn't need to ... Nothing, nothing can go wrong with it as long as it is completely unreal. [laughs]

    24. RC

      Yeah.

    25. OB

      And then the moment that it actually starts being created because you're doing something in the real world, in one way or another you're gonna run up against the inevitability of imperfection and limit. It's going to be hard or it's going to be uncertain, or it's going to be a little bit less than the perfect image you'd had of it or something. And that's just baked in to, to bringing it into reality. So then I think it becomes very tempting for people to never quite get started on things because it, it, it, it feels nicer and-

    26. RC

      Yeah

    27. OB

      ... more powerful in a way. If you feel more powerful while you haven't like let it out into the world, it's a bogus kind of power because obviously you're not, you haven't done it.

    28. RC

      And you've also got that sense of control 'cause it's still undone.

    29. OB

      Right.

    30. RC

      So actually there's still that control. I could do it.

  12. 45:18 – 1:08:52

    Community rhythms vs. individual scheduling freedom: Sabbath, fika, weekends, Parkrun

    1. RC

      Is part of the problem that we, we, we now live in a very individualistic society where we're told we can do anything we want? You write about the digital nomad and how that's a misnomer actually in, in terms of how we actually articulate that. This idea though that we can be anything we want. We can master our, our schedules, our time. We can travel when we want. We wanna work in a coffee shop. We can do all that. But by having no limits, it's actually problematic. And, and I love this idea that we potentially should be constrained by the limits of community-

    2. OB

      Mm

    3. RC

      ... and people around us in a way that we're not anymore. So maybe you could speak to that a little bit.

    4. OB

      Yeah, I think this is a really important part of it all, the way that certain kinds of tradition, including but not limited to religious traditions. You know, one of the things they do is they impose some kind of temporal structure on life. So they make it that you do certain things at certain times, whether you like it or not. And if you are... You know, people who are religious and go to church or another place of worship on a regular basis will understand this notion, right? You don't just go when you really feel like it, and the benefit of it is something more than that. But likewise, you know, if you go to a band rehearsal or choir or you, you meet people to play a football match-

    5. RC

      Yeah

    6. OB

      ... on a weekly basis or something, like, it only has the value it has because you've all decided that you're all gonna be in the same place at the same time. It can't work otherwise. And yet, at the same time, as we have all these very obvious examples staring us in the face of how, you know, you have to be synchronized, you have to give up a little bit of personal dictatorship over your schedule in order to get these benefits. At the same time, we have this cultural value that says, yeah, the goal here for everybody in their ideal world should be to be absolutely in control of their own schedules. To get up every morning, like the dream would be you get up every morning, you do exactly what you want at, at exactly whatever time you want. And I use the digital nomad in the book as an example of that, right? That's sort of the epitome of this, this idea I'm gonna go and work from a beach, wherever I, you know.

    7. RC

      Mm.

    8. OB

      It's all just gonna be me in charge. And more honest people who've done that will tell you that one of the key characteristics of that life is that it's, it's quite lonely because you're not held in any of those kind of webs, and you're not able to sort of participate in those kind of rhythms. Precisely, you sort of placed yourself outside of that in your pursuit of total freedom. So one of the things that I've really found in my own life in the last few years for sure, and this is partly to do with how becoming a parent binds you to other people's rhythms more closely. Rhythms of school, rhythms of after-school things, rhythms of play dates and, you know, you have to work with your spouse in a completely different way. All of this, again, it's true for everybody. It's just very clear for parents, I think, is that these are good things. Like, these are benefits.

    9. RC

      Yeah.

    10. OB

      To, they, I definitely have... They definitely frustrate me sometimes. It's not like I find them, like, super enjoyable every day all the time. But the alternative of just sort of drifting like one little atom through the, through the world is not, is not a preferable alternative. The sacrifice that I have to make of the part of myself that would love to just like draw up a schedule at eight o'clock in the morning where I just got to say everything, like that sacrifice is worth making for-

    11. RC

      Yeah

    12. OB

      ... a fulfilling life, yeah.

    13. RC

      I hope that last section is empowering for many people listening or watching at the moment, Oliver. Because I think if you are, you know, if you're, if you have a busy family life-

    14. OB

      Mm-hmm

    15. RC

      ... and you know, there's work and then there's, you've got to sort the kids out and, you know, and Saturday means swimming lessons or whatever is going on It's tempting, isn't it, to think, "Oh man, look at those guys who are just free and-

    16. OB

      [laughs]

    17. RC

      "... they can travel the world on their laptop, or they've got nothing."

    18. OB

      Yeah.

    19. RC

      Right? Nothing. But I think what you said there, hopefully, is like, hey, listen, the grass, the grass is usually never greener on the other side-

    20. OB

      [laughs] Right

    21. RC

      ... of our lives and life.

    22. OB

      Right.

    23. RC

      Right? But that comes at a cost. There's a cost to everything. That comes at a cost. You're doing it by yourself. You don't have this structure and this community. Like, I even noticed, I've been a father now for over 11 years. I live with my wife and my two kids, and if they ever go away-

    24. OB

      Mm-hmm

    25. RC

      ... let's say, I don't know, they're away for two nights somewhere while I'm working-

    26. OB

      Mm

    27. RC

      ... and they've gone away to, like, you know, my wife's parents or-

    28. OB

      Mm-hmm

    29. RC

      ... or wherever. You know, initially-

    30. OB

      Yeah

  13. 1:08:52 – 1:19:12

    A “fairly fulfilled life,” work-life balance myths, and seasonal imbalance

    1. OB

      Yeah

    2. RC

      ... we, we're all on a journey and we're all kind of approaching these things at, at different times. You mentioned your Guardian column, which is, you know, it was very well read all over the world. Your last column has proven to be quite, uh, iconic.

    3. OB

      [laughs]

    4. RC

      Uh, it's, I mean, I don't know how many times I've seen it being shared. It's, it's, it's really, really good. And I wonder actually when you started writing this book, because actually some of the ideas in it, when is it from? Two years ago, was it? Three? It's, uh-

    5. OB

      Uh, yeah. The, the book was well advanced by the time I wrote that last column, but it was-

    6. RC

      Yeah, 'cause there's some very similar-

    7. OB

      Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. My mind was in the same place.

    8. RC

      Yeah, for sure. What was it called again, the final column?

    9. OB

      They called it, uh, Eight Secrets to a Fairly Fulfilled Life, which was, I don't deserve the credit for that. That was a-

    10. RC

      Uh-huh

    11. OB

      ... a great Guardian production person coming up with that idea, but yeah.

    12. RC

      So I like that, a fairly fulfilled life.

    13. OB

      Mm-hmm.

    14. RC

      Do, do you have a fairly fulfilled life now?

    15. OB

      I think so. Yeah. I think that's a great standard to aim for. Um, but then again, it's sort of a constant work in progress. I mean, I sometimes think there's a risk, the stuff that I write and talk about, that, uh, people ask whether I'm sort of calmer and less stressed about things now, and I think like I am, but it should be my wife who you're interviewing for that, for that question really, because I don't wanna claim that I'm, you know, effortlessly easy to live with or something. I do think that, I mean, a big part of it, I mean, yes, I am. I've, in lots of ways I'm just a calmer and more fulfilled person than I used to be, but, but a big part of it also is this thing about how f- how quickly you can get back on the wagon.

    16. RC

      Mm.

    17. OB

      So it's not, it's not, I think with these kind of ideas about time that I've, that I've spent a lot of time exploring, they don't make you into someone who never gets stressed about work-

    18. RC

      No

    19. OB

      ... or never procrastinates but or something like that. But you, you see, "Oh, I'm doing that thing again."

    20. RC

      Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    21. OB

      And you know why you're doing it, and you're sort of forgiving of yourself because the reason why you're doing it is a totally human, like, you know-

    22. RC

      Yeah

    23. OB

      ... desire to have more control than, than we can have. And then you can just be like, "Okay. All right. I'm not gonna do that anymore for today. I'm gonna go back to the better way of being." And, you know, it's back and forth, back and forth, two steps forward, one step back-

    24. RC

      Yeah

    25. OB

      ... or whatever, but that's fine, I think.

    26. RC

      That awareness, I think, is a massively important step for all of us. You know, just 'cause we might know something or write about something doesn't mean we can always apply it.

    27. OB

      Mm-hmm.

    28. RC

      But I think it does give us an awareness sometimes. I think your book will, will give people a huge awareness of why they make certain decisions, why certain things end up frustrating them. Like, it doesn't mean that you can necessarily change it all straight away, but just being aware, you're like, "Oh, oh, I get it. Oh, I'm doing that thing."

    29. OB

      Yeah.

    30. RC

      Even this kind of, this, this whole idea of work-life balance.

  14. 1:19:12 – 1:28:47

    Choosing “enlargement” over happiness, and why the future won’t reassure you

    1. RC

      Yeah. Um, in terms of people needing to make decisions or, or wanting help and advice from Oliver Burkeman, who wrote this column for week after week, giving advice to people. Um, in your final article, point number two was, "When stumped by a life choice, choose enlargement over happiness," which I really, really liked. I thought that was a really nice way, um, could you expand on what you meant by that? What does, what does choose enlargement mean?

    2. OB

      Yeah, this comes from a Jungian psychologist, James Hollis, who-

    3. RC

      Yeah

    4. OB

      ... whose work I really, really admire, and I've had the amazing luck to then get to, get to meet and talk to. And he says, yeah, if you're facing a big choice, but I think you can use it in day-to-day context as well, right? Instead of thinking or asking, what, is this gonna make me happy, what should I do that would make me happiest? Yeah, ask what would enlarge you and what would diminish you. So what does this mean? I think, for me anyway, what it means is what we really want deep, deep down is, is growth. It isn't actually necessarily hedonism. Firstly, we're terrible at predicting what's gonna make us happy, right?

    5. RC

      Yeah.

    6. OB

      That's just a very, like the oldest finding in social psychology is we think we want this, and then we get it-

    7. RC

      Yeah

    8. OB

      ... and it just doesn't give us what we wanted. But also, that, also this question brings into focus the idea of whether happiness is quite the right word for what we should be shooting for anyway in life, because there are lots of contexts that where we're not actually like having a happy time in that moment, but where looking back we know that that was a really meaningful thing to do. And I think this question about enlargement, you, it, it really works to sort of connect you to your intuitions on that matter. So to give examples, right? In relationships, in jobs, there are all sorts of difficulties that you encounter, all sorts of times that do not feel pleasurable-

    9. RC

      Mm

    10. OB

      ... and happy and fun. But some of them might be a sign that you're in a toxic relationship or a terrible job. Others are just kinda like part of getting better at living with a whole other adult or doing a challenging job-

    11. RC

      Yeah

    12. OB

      ... um, to achieve something worthwhile. And that enlargement question can really help you filter between those, those two because when you think about some difficulty you're undergoing in one of those domains, like, you know if it's the kind of difficulty that is ultimately helping you grow as a person. It's not fun, but it's like, yeah, I'm, this is challenging me in good ways that I need to be challenged. And then I think you also know if it's just the kind that's making your soul shrivel inside, in which case, sure, do what you can to get out of that-

    13. RC

      Yeah

    14. OB

      ... situation. And that's really important because otherwise you're just gonna think to yourself, "Well, this is unpleasant, therefore it must be wrong for me." [chuckles] And I've had, you know, I've given this example before, but I, but the one that it's just so vivid to me that I, that I come back to it. I lived and worked in the US for a very long time. My wife's American. And there was a time very early in my time there when I had this sort of moment when I could have like returned back to the UK or stayed out there. And for me, it was very clear when I sort of pondered it in this way that the enlarging choice was to remain out in the US and to not sort of walk away from all the, the life that I was beginning to get embedded in there. But you could easily imagine somebody else who was living in another country where it was like, "Okay, now it's time to go home and face the music." Like, now it's like the enlarging choice here is to stop sort of messing around as an expat in another country and go and like, go and do the thing you said you wanted to do. Maybe this is not a very good example for other people. I don't know. But like it, it, it always speaks to me because it was clear to me then that like it would've been the comfortable option to, to, to leave-

    15. RC

      Yeah

    16. OB

      ... at that point, but not the enlarging option. And I think that's often, uh, it's often staying with the situation, not always, but often staying with the situation is like the sort of more important challenge than leaving it.

    17. RC

      Uh, and I guess that's very individual to whoever's making that decision, isn't it? It's like it's impossible to say to someone else, "That's an enlarging choice. That is not an enlarging choice."

    18. OB

      Right. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah.

    19. RC

      I can't possibly know what that is for someone else.

    20. OB

      No.

    21. RC

      But when they ask themselves that question, I, I think they often have that instinct.

    22. OB

      Right.

    23. RC

      If we allow ourselves to be-

    24. OB

      Right

    25. RC

      ... quiet enough to actually tap into our instinct, which I, I think is a, another big problem these days.

    26. OB

      And it can work in the opposite way, right, than the one, than the example I gave. So, you know, someone might have the idea that their job is to tough out like an abusive relationship or a, or a-

    27. RC

      Mm

    28. OB

      ... or an exploitative work situation, that they're, they might have been raised with the idea that their job is just to like-

    29. RC

      Mm

    30. OB

      ... stick with it, come what may. And when they ask this question, they might be like, "No, this is, this is having the opposite effect-

  15. 1:28:47 – 1:37:26

    The cost of keeping options open—and a simple way to make time for what matters

    1. RC

      I wanna finish off by talking about keeping options open. I think, and, and I guess I'm passionate about this 'cause I feel for much of my life I've not wanting to commit-

    2. OB

      Mm-hmm

    3. RC

      ... to certain things. Like, ah, I just wanna keep my options open. What if I wanna do something else that day? What I don't wanna... Like I'm not, I'm not very good at committing to stuff in the future.

    4. OB

      Mm.

    5. RC

      In fact, if someone invites me or, or there's an opportunity two or three months in advance, I don't like it because I, I'm like, well, I, I, I may, I may be busy or I may wanna do something else that week.

    6. OB

      Yes. [laughs] Yes.

    7. RC

      Do you know what I mean?

    8. OB

      Yeah. Oh, join the club. Yeah. No, I, I know this very well personally. Yeah.

    9. RC

      So, so this is, I guess I'm, I'm, I'm looking for some wisdom from you-

    10. OB

      [laughs]

    11. RC

      ... I think on the problems with keeping options open.

    12. OB

      Well, it's only wisdom, if it is wisdom at all, that comes from having been in exactly the same, uh, situation, uh, wanting to do that. I think that basically what happens when we insist on keeping our options open or refusing, refuse to commit to things is, is again, it's a, it's a form of feeling in more control than we really have. So like procrastination, if you don't launch into a project, in reality you still get to feel in control of it. If you don't commit to relationships or to projects or to a career or to a place where you live or something, it feels like you're holding all the potential inside yourself.

    13. RC

      Yeah.

    14. OB

      And at some later point you can, fine, when you feel like it, you will make that commitment, but not now. That again is, is something that is actually false simply because of the fact that we are finite and that time just keeps elapsing whether we like it or not. So the example I give in the book, right, or one of the examples, if you decline to get into a long-term relationship and instead you want to spend like 10 years dating people and playing the field, right? You might tell yourself as a commitment phobe that you are keeping your options open, but in fact you've just made a different kind of choice about how to commit to that time, right? You, the upshot, the upside, there's an upside, which is that you don't have to encounter the sort of difficulties or limitations of a long-term relationship, and there's a downside, which is you don't get to enjoy all the benefits of a committed long-term relationship. And that might be the right decision for someone to take, but that time is still gone and you've decided to use those years-

    15. RC

      Mm

    16. OB

      ... that we will never get again in one way rather than another way. And it might be the right way for someone. I'm not saying like everyone has to get married at 18 or something, but what we tend to tell ourselves is that it isn't really committing to something. We, we're telling ourselves that we're sort of holding back from, from we're, we're maintaining our position of power. But the sands of time are running out whether we like it or not. So you're just using up those years of your life in a different way. And the idea I'm trying to get at there is that like you're always committing to things. It's just that you're sometimes committing unconsciously.

    17. RC

      Yeah.

    18. OB

      So then it's not... Then some people might say then, well, then it's not a commitment. But you are still sort of trade-offs are-

    19. RC

      Yeah

    20. OB

      ... are present whatever you're doing. And so- You know, if you decide to keep your options open about a, a career path by not sort of giving yourself fully to one thing, um, again, that might be right for some people that they want to sort of-

    21. RC

      Yeah

    22. OB

      ... ha-keep, have a finger in multiple pies during their life. But, like, don't pretend that you're not deciding to use up a bit of your life in that way, that you're somehow sort of, you know, real life hasn't begun yet-

    23. RC

      Yeah

    24. OB

      ... and you're holding all the cards. No, real life has begun, and you've decided to do that with it. Yeah.

    25. RC

      I guess before you know it, you never end up making a decision. You can, you can always endlessly keep your options open, but-

    26. OB

      Right

    27. RC

      ... what, you just got-

    28. OB

      There's-

    29. RC

      ... a lot of options.

    30. OB

      Right.

Episode duration: 1:37:26

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