Breathing Expert Reveals How To Stay Calm in Any Situation No Matter How Stressful | Brian MacKenzie

Brian MacKenzie 0:00 I got to go dive with great white sharks. I got to experience the fact that I am in front of a dinosaur, that if it chose in a split second I wasn't going to exist, I wouldn't exist.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 0:12 Why did you do that?

Brian MacKenzie 0:14 I wanna understand breath control. [upbeat music]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 0:20 So Brian, welcome to the Feel Better Live More podcast.

Brian MacKenzie 0:23 Thank you for having me. Thank you for coming to LA.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 0:25 Hey, not at all.

Brian MacKenzie 0:26 [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 0:26 Yeah, so a bit of context. We are here in, uh, sunny Santa Monica. It's a beautiful day. I've been following your work probably for a few months now.

Brian MacKenzie 0:34 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 0:34 I've come across it and, um, you know, there's so many aspects of what you do that I find really fascinating that I think my listeners are gonna enjoy. One of the things you focus a lot on is breathing.

Brian MacKenzie 0:44 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 0:45 And I wonder if you could expand on why you feel breathing is so important, given that everyone listening to this podcast right now is already breathing.

Brian MacKenzie 0:53 Mm-hmm. Um, it's one of two things that w- we have autonomic control over. So meaning, you know, these... Our, our respirat- our ventilation system is set up in the brain stem, and so we actually can inter- intercept something and control something that actually is self-regulating, right? So s- from a self-regulation standpoint, um, we're just gonna breathe, right? It's the first thing you do when you come out of the womb, and then it's the last thing we do, right? Like, before we leave, before we die. And it, it's happening 26,000 times a day and there's no abs- there's no way to actually think about that all day long. Like, there's no way to consciously do that. Even if you're a monk that's living in Tibet, in, in isolation, you are still not gonna be able to do 26,000 breaths a day thinking about it, 'cause you're gonna have to do a couple other things, right? You're gonna have to implement some other, uh, aspects of your life. And so where mot- motor control starts to pick up, you know, there's this thing that we have the ability to optimize ourselves with be- since it controls not only what's happening from the aspect of ma- Like, if we were to talk about emotional context, you can intercept things. You know, this is why people like B.K.S. Iyengar have spoken about it, why anybody in the yoga sphere in the world has... Who's ever done real work will talk about breathing as a foundation, why the word pranayama exists, energy control, which now alludes more to now I have metabolic control over what's happening. So we pull oxygen into the system through breath, and then we exhale its waste product, right? Carbon dioxide. Um, and which is one of the waste products. And so, and from a mechanical standpoint, we understand if I want to take full breath, that's limiting versus [inhales] [exhales] now I can get a full breath when I sit up, right? So those are just simple plays on something that from a self-regulation standpoint, the body will do it no matter what. But if the body is in, if, if the body and mind are in a, you know, diseased spot, regardless if I have disease or I'm just s- too stressed out, the self-regulation standpoint may not be optimizing what I could be doing for myself. Therefore, I could manipulate something, this thing, in order to optimize something.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 3:30 Yeah. I mean, a lot of people these days are suffering with the effects of stress, the consequences of being chronically, chronically stressed, and not actually adequately recuperating from that. And, you know, everyone's looking for the hack, you know? What can I do to keep my life super, super busy, but what can I do that's gonna somehow magically de-stress me?

Brian MacKenzie 3:50 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 3:50 And it's fascinating for me that breathing could well be, um, one of the simplest and one of the most accessible things to all of us, yet it's something that very few of us are actively looking at and actively practicing.

Brian MacKenzie 4:05 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 4:06 Why do you think that is?

Brian MacKenzie 4:08 Um, I think we've moved ourselves far enough away from inside out understanding that outside in has become our go-to default. I look at my phone for an answer to something, right? Um, I'm on social media for things, for answers to things. I look at heart rate monitors for things. I look, you know... It, it, it continues to add up on the outside in, trying... So we're missing the, the... There's a big variant in that. Like, there's a big variation in that because y- to understand how you feel, you have to go in. You have to go to the base layer of what's going on and, and at the fundamental layer of all of this is breathing. And so actually taking the time to actually reorganize and feel things, sh- I can... Most people, if we were to introduce some sort of a minor breath practice, like the super ventilation stuff we did yesterday-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 5:07 Yeah

Brian MacKenzie 5:08 ... that'll stimulate anybody, right? Anybody's gonna feel that. But if we do slow, controlled breathing, a lot of people may have problems with that and not feel that just as quickly, and it's more of a long-term thing. So it's something people have to actually put discipline in, right? To understand it. But that's... And, and this is where that outside in thing comes. You know, people are so stressed out, and it's like th- that's all just a, a conceptualization. That's just story. That's just a narrative. We are designed to handle stress at very high output. It, it... and, and maybe, and then I'm s- I'm stealing this from a, a, a friend of ours, David Biddler, but maybe it's not that we have a disorder. Maybe it's not that, you know, anxiety and all this stress is, is actually a disor- maybe this is just a natural reaction to- the amount of stimulus to the stimulus that we're taking in from the outside and not paying attention to things from the inside. Because when I, I, I've met and worked with a lot of high-level people, whether athletes, executives, um, i- i- whoever, right? The people that are functioning the highest are shutting out everything else. They're in their environment and what they're in. Like the conversation you and I are having right now, I'm not thinking about the drive that I've gotta go do, except right now when I say that, right? Now I'm [laughs] distracting-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 6:32 Yeah

Brian MacKenzie 6:32 ... myself. And so this is where the context of things starts to happen, and then I start to overload more because I'm in an environment I should be paying attention to, and I'm not feeling what's going on with that and, and present in that situation. And so breathing is that thing that I can go [inhales] [exhales] and bring myself right back and stottle- stop a lot of the physiological ramifications of that stuff.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 6:59 Sure. And we will get into the mechanics of that shortly. The thing that really, uh, resonates with me from what you just said is this whole idea that maybe anxiety or, you know, eh, a whole list of other complaints is an appropriate response to the environment in which we're living. And, you know, as a doctor, this is something I've been wrestling with for a good 5 to 10 years now, that actually a lot of the time I think that the body is really smart, the body is clever.

Brian MacKenzie 7:26 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 7:26 The body does what it is meant to do. I, I spoke to Johann Hari, I don't know if you know Johann, he wrote the book Lost Connections on-

Brian MacKenzie 7:33 Yeah. I, I've read

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 7:34 ... W- we had a, just a phenomenal conversation for about two hours on this podcast a few months ago. And again, it's that whole idea that maybe the way we're feeling, this, this chronic epidemic of lifestyle-driven disease, is actually our body's doing what they should be doing in a very toxic environment. I went on your Art of Breath course yesterday-

Brian MacKenzie 7:55 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 7:55 ... with you and Rob were teaching, um, and, and your oth- the other, uh, Yo- Johann-

Brian MacKenzie 7:59 Danny

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 7:59 ... and Danny as well-

Brian MacKenzie 8:00 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 8:00 ... which is, which is fantastic. Um, but I, I got there slightly rushed. I had to fly in from Santa Rosa to California.

Brian MacKenzie 8:07 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 8:07 And we had a chat when I got there, and it was super interesting that, you know, you, you consciously have made a decision, from what I understand, to not live in an environment where you will constantly be fighting these stressful inputs around you. Uh, you put yourself into an environment of nature-

Brian MacKenzie 8:25 Mm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 8:25 ... of calm, of peace. Is that, was that intentional?

Brian MacKenzie 8:27 Ye- yeah. Um, we call that, and I'll give this to Rob Wilson, paying attention. If you're paying attention to what's going on in you, you start to feel the aspects of w- your environment. That doesn't mean I couldn't live in LA. I, I, I, 40 years I spent in this LA basin, right? And I was, I was perfectly fine, it's just I got away three years ago into nature out in the middle of nowhere Oregon, and spent a year there, like seven acres, 30 minutes from a, a real town, um, you know, in the forest. Uh, and I got to know myself, and I really got to know myself. And I had already started doing work to start to feel what was going on in me, but it wasn't until I actually understood, like, oh, this is why people actually get away or unplug, right? And you can do that in, in, in spaces like LA, and I, we act- I actually had this very conversation at a barbecue we went to after, um, the seminar yesterday with, uh, Dr. Tania Bentley, who runs the foundation that we work with, um, at her house. And they live up in a canyon in what seems to be not LA.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 9:38 Yeah.

Brian MacKenzie 9:39 And her and her husband and I, her husband and I were having this conversation, and he literally was just like, "I don't know how you do it here outside of this." And I'm like, "I get it. Like I get that." And I don't think enough people understand that it, like there's gotta be so... This is where that hack world has to come in if we're existing in these places, right? Is we have to actually start to hack things, and breathing is one of those hacks. Because I actually believe that if we were still out there, meaning still out in nature, still trying to survive, right? Like, like cave people, right? Like we wouldn't even need to be worrying about breathing because we'd be existing in a natural environment, responding to that natural environment in the way that it, it, that we should have, right? Versus b- putting ourselves into places where comfort and convenience and the illusion of safety becomes this very, um... It, it, it, it encompasses our entire life.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 10:41 Yeah, for sure. I guess it is in this environment we need to think about breathing. It is in this environment we need to think about physical activity because I guess, you know, in, in many environments around the world, in these blu- in these so-called blue zones where-

Brian MacKenzie 10:55 [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 10:55 ... people are living to, you know, 100 plus with very low rates of chronic disease, um, you know, they're not trying to be physically active. They're not trying to have low stress levels. They're not trying to eat healthy food. Their environment is set up where that is the norm for them, so they don't have to think about, "Oh, I need to go to the gym to work out", because they're moving every day. They're moving to get their, their food out of the grounds, and they're walking around to see their, their friends and their family. And so, you know, we have to now think about these tools that we need in this modern environment.

Brian MacKenzie 11:26 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 11:27 A lot of people listening to this will probably be thinking, "Well, you know, it's all very well moving out to nature, but I don't have access to that." And so why the breath really fascinates me, because I've worked in, in many different areas. I've, I've looked after affluent patients. I've also looked after very deprived patients.

Brian MacKenzie 11:42 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 11:43 And I guess breathing is free.

Brian MacKenzie 11:46 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 11:46 Breathing is accessible to everybody.

Brian MacKenzie 11:50 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 11:50 And then what that naturally lends itself to is if you have control over your breath, even if you are living in an inner city where there is a lot of noise around you and there's a lot of inputs that you are constantly having to fight off, well, at least you have a tool, like a shield where you can use for your body to help you, to help you survive in that environment. Is that fair to say?

Brian MacKenzie 12:14 Totally fair. That, it's absolutely fair. That, that's where this comes in. And it even can come in when we're not even in, when you're on vacation or you're in the middle of nowhere nature, right? Or camping or whatever. But this is absolutely where it does come in and, and, and, and it's our ability to shift our state, right? To be ab- the ability because we're not staying focused anymore. Like ADD, I'm, I've got anxiety. Well, if you've got a, if you're dealing with anxiety, like, you're, you're, you're just not responding to your current environment. You're thinking of an environment outside of your environment and, you know, you're doing a lot of other stuff that's going on versus actually responding to the current thing that's going on, right? And I, I understand this intimately is I'm that type A person who will overwhelm myself and take on, bite off more than I can chew and figure that out, right? Like, "Oh, okay, I, I overshot the mark here. I need to pull back. Like, I need, I need to stop with all this stimulus," you know? Like, I chose not to fly down here this trip because I'm on planes pretty frequently and I'm going boom, boom, boom. And I decided a five and a half hour drive both ways will allow me to decompress in a way that jumping on an airplane and being back quickly won't.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 13:26 Yeah.

Brian MacKenzie 13:27 Right? So it, it becomes what's my environment? So I can exist in, in, in a big city or in a city or in not in nature, and I just have to manipulate my environment or listen to my environment in, in a way that allows me to kinda just be in that place, right? And breathing is that, one of those things that literally brings you... It, it's why every meditation practice has breathing at the foundation. It really brings you right to that focal point.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 13:55 It, it's funny that I think back to, um, when I started doing things like, um, you know, when I was sort of working out when I was, like, 15 or 16 and, you know, you'd read the magazines or you'd read what you should be doing. And they'd always say, you know, when, you know, like, I don't know, a bench press, let's say, you, uh, on the way back up, exhale. I used to ignore that stuff. I used to just think, what's the exercise? What's the mechanical exercise that I need to do? Uh, you know, who cares if you're breathing in on the way in and, and breathing out on, on the way back up. And now with the knowledge I have now, I look back and go, "Wow, how naive was I?"

Brian MacKenzie 14:30 [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 14:31 And then you can really expand that across, you know, you mentioned these ancient practices like yoga.

Brian MacKenzie 14:37 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 14:37 Yoga has got breathing at the heart of it. Yet many yoga classes I've been to, certainly a few years ago, and the way I see many people around me practicing yoga, is they feel it's a physical practice. I want to be able to stretch my hamstring so that I can get in this position, almost ignoring the breath part of it. And I've really gone, like, completely 180 on this in the sense that I actually think that br- breathing is, is at the heart. You get that right, then the physical, um, the physical actions that you want actually follow very, very easily. And you have this beautiful phrase I think I heard you say once, uh, "Mind is the king of the senses. Breath is the king of the mind."

Brian MacKenzie 15:21 That's B.K.S. Iyengar. That's me quoting-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 15:25 That's you quoting him.

Brian MacKenzie 15:26 Yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 15:26 I mean, that is phenomenal. We can maybe unpack that. But do you feel that in the West today, in the 21st century-

Brian MacKenzie 15:34 Mm-hmm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 15:35 ... when we think about working out, movement, yoga, whatever physical practice it is, going to the gym, CrossFit, have we forgotten about the breath?

Brian MacKenzie 15:45 I would say by and large, most people participating in yoga practice right now around the world are not participating in the way that it was designed. And, uh, that doesn't mean I understand it to its totality, but I've been teaching movement and, um, principles of movement for almost 20 years. And we have come to the realization that the way you move is the way you breathe, and thus controlling the breath controls the way you move. And so yoga nailed this in the beginning and at the foundation with people who actually understand these deep principles, but we all kinda get lost in all these different mediums. And it's not just yoga. Like, you talk about CrossFit, running, all of these things, we, we, we- whatever the medium is, we lose sight of where v- what we're trying to do because we get caught up in the, "Oh, I'm gonna burn some calories. I'm going to, um, get bigger. I'm going to get more flexible." No, those are all byproducts of what this does and why are we doing this, you know? And it's, it's like you bring up the blue... You brought up the blue zones, and what's interesting about the blue zones is, um, you know, n- in no blue zone is anybody going to the gym.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 17:05 Yeah.

Brian MacKenzie 17:06 So if you're gonna sit there and quote-- Not you. If people are gonna sit there and talk about blue zones and what people in the blue zones eat and do and, and use that to an advantage, well, you better take into consideration that these people live in nature, basically. [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 17:25 Yeah.

Brian MacKenzie 17:25 Like, they live far from things th- and they're doing the work based on a lifestyle that none, uh, most of us, especially using the blue zones as, as this idea, uh, are, are doing. And so it- commit to something like that, and that's all I've done a little bit. Like, I, I'm not doing that fully in any way, shape, or form. I'm manipulating the, the environment in order to s- suit for how I live a more qualitative life and feel that life. And I'm not looking

Brian MacKenzie 17:55 for necessary longevity of life. I'm looking for quality of life because, I mean, I've experienced thing, like, it, this is a very big rabbit hole, but it, you know, it, you, you just need an abrupt, um, [snaps fingers] check in your life to really understand things usually. I mean, most of us, you know? And I mean, I- Uh, over a little over a year ago, I, um, I thought I broke my neck, woke up on the ground, and, you know, I had a massive contusion C- between C3, C4 that I hit my head going up a ladder playing tag with my nephews. Um, and woke up on the ground, and I couldn't move. And I was like, "Oh, th- this is... Something's wrong." And that event altered how I started really-- even though I was thinking about life being this fragile, quick thi- it really was, oh, you just don't even know. You don't even know when it's coming, and yet we behave as though, especially the hacker world, we behave like th- there's so much fear around dying that it's like, yo, y- embrace death. Everything's a death. And, and come to the conclusion that y- what you're feeling is allowing you to l- to, to really experience life, and that's in essence why breath at the foundation and why these yogis and why these people were talking about this is because it is the center of what it is we're doing.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 19:22 Yeah. I mean, we're so busy these days, right? Everyone's-- nobody's got time. I, I, I really do feel... I, I've been asked this before, what is the biggest stress in modern society?

Brian MacKenzie 19:35 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 19:35 And my view, and there are multiple ones, um, my view is it's the erosion of downtime, the fact that-

Brian MacKenzie 19:42 Mm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 19:42 ... we don't have downtime in our lives anymore. Every single minute, we, we look at these damn phones. Uh, you know, we get up in the morning, we look at these phones. We stand in line in the coffee shop, and instead of daydreaming and, and letting, you know, our DMN, our default mode network, kick into gear and actually start to solve problems and be creative for us, we're consuming, consuming, consuming. And you mentioned often we need something abrupt. And, you know, for, for me, one of the turning points in my life was when my father died-

Brian MacKenzie 20:13 Mm-hmm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 20:14 ... um, you know, six and a half years ago. Uh, and I used to, I used to help-- I moved back to where I grew up to help care for my dad for like 10, 15 years. And when my dad died, you know, it, it forced me to start confronting various things in my life. You know, was I living the life that I wanted to? Was I simply a mirror reflection of everything I'd grown up around? Or, you know, who was the real me? And I find that, um, as I've gone down that path, and it is a big rabbit hole, but I think it's the most rewarding rabbit hole you'll ever go down-

Brian MacKenzie 20:45 Mm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 20:45 ... starting to understand myself better. Um, I, I would have time, time when I-- because, because Dad wasn't here anymore, all this time that I previously would spend with him, carrying him, showering him, washing him, shaving him, all this kind of stuff, suddenly with that time, I would-- I'd go for a walk. I'd, I'd just go and daydream, and I'd start to reflect. And I thought, "Wow, I've not had time to reflect, to self-reflect on my life, my entire, my entire life," but certainly my whole adult life until that point. And once I found that time, once that time was given to me, m- everything in my life started to come online, you know? I s- I've, I've created a life that I love. I, I love what I do in my career. I feel very close with my wife and my kids. I feel that I know who I am. And in the last six to 12 months, I no longer have a fear of death.

Brian MacKenzie 21:40 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 21:40 And, you know, that was quite a long story to try and get to that point, but-

Brian MacKenzie 21:43 Yeah, no

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 21:44 ... but it's, it's, it's when you do the internal work-

Brian MacKenzie 21:47 Mm-hmm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 21:48 ... I feel that it len- it, it leads you to your breath, actually, because a- after you strip away a few of these layers of the onion, y- you, you start to... You know, you [laughs] it, it takes you to your breath, and you realize, actually for me, the next level of spiritual growth, if you wanna call it, um, you know, or, or, or sort of self-exploration, is to sort of get control of my breath and understand it and actually start to, you know, really start to play around with it and see how it impacts my mood, how it impacts my state. And I get the impression from, as I say, it's been a few months that I be- I've come across your work, and I get the impression that underneath the breath, there's also been a lot of personal growth with you.

Brian MacKenzie 22:35 Oh, yeah. Yeah. It, I, it transformed everything about what I've, um, worked on. I, I th- I, I mean, I'd been in the self-help stuff for 20 years, like looking at it, reading it, going through, seeing therapists, going to programs, workshops, you know, all this stuff, this guru, that guru. Like, all of it. Like, hey, what, what can I learn here? And it wasn't really until I invested in this that, uh, any of that really made any sense. And now it's like I, you know, I, we joke about it, but I, I like the real depth of [laughs] things, like the true depth of it, like looking at the heart of what my reaction is to something, you know? And, and, and I think that is li- that's the gateway opening. That is the entire thing is lo- looking at and understanding. And we were having this conversation offline, but it's like somebody reacting to you online or something and how it used to affect us befo- you know, and, and I was the same. It affect- it used to affect me, and now it's like I actually understand the behavior, and I can have compassion towards that and understand where somebody's at because it's not be- actually being directed at me. This is actually something that is in an internal issue and not understanding, and so somebody just doesn't have the tools quite yet to get that.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 23:54 Mm.

Brian MacKenzie 23:55 And I think our job to some degree is to, since we've decided to take this exploration on, is to explain what those tools are.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 24:05 Yeah. I completely agree. I mean, it's almost-- I got that sense from you and your team yesterday at Art of Breath that there's almost, almost a deep sense of obligation there as you have- got this awareness, you, you've developed your understanding, it's almost like, [sighs] it's almost like something you have to spread with the world. You have to understand it more. You have to be able to communicate it and reach people because it is potentially controlling your breath... Controlling your breath is probably the wrong terminology. A, having an awareness of your breath, understanding your breath, being able to manipulate your breath for certain situations is arguably one of the most powerful tools we have, yet most of us don't... We do have access, but we don't feel we've got access to it, and we don't have the knowledge to access it either.

Brian MacKenzie 24:57 Yeah. I mean, Eckhart totally talks, uh, candidly about, you know, like, I mean, well, he just openly will just say, "Just be aware of your breath. Like, just be conscious of, of your breath. Like, you know, get, get awareness of that." He doesn't give anything else up, [laughs] right?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 25:15 Yeah.

Brian MacKenzie 25:15 Like, he's not like, "Hey, use this pattern to do the..." You know, there's none of that, right? And y- y- and I'm only bringing him up because, you know, here's a guy who's really risen up to the top in some very basic, simple ideas-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 25:27 Yeah

Brian MacKenzie 25:27 ... in, you know, this self-help or even spiritual realm, right? Um, and it's great because I think that just the ability to become aware, but most people can't sit there and be aware of their breath. And this is where practices like Vipassana have come in and done tremendous work to where it's like, "Hey, you're gonna go 10 days silent meditation, and you're just gonna learn to be aware of your breath, and that's it." And, you know, after like three days, you've, uh, you know, felt like you've never been through more pain in your entire life, right? And then all of a sudden you become aware of things as it, as this 10 days comes to a close-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 26:04 Yeah

Brian MacKenzie 26:04 ... right? And, and, but y- I don't think that's actually necessary for everybody, but maybe it is. Like, not everybody should need to go run 100 miles, but I did, you know? And like-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 26:14 Yeah

Brian MacKenzie 26:14 ... I got that experience, and I understand that. Um, you know, and, and just sitting there and be- just being quiet and paying attention to your breath for maybe two minutes or five minutes, or if you can do 10 minutes, and you can just continue to do that, that, that is enough. That'll teach you more than most things will because... And, and, and the reason is, is because your breath is connected to everything we're doing. Like, it is that thing that's connected to what we're doing, so it responds to the environment. And so becoming aware of that literally opens up the doorway of, oh, I'm just not paying attention to my environment right now.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 27:01 Mm.

Brian MacKenzie 27:01 Or, you know, if there is a, a lion in the corridor, like [laughs] -

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 27:05 Yeah

Brian MacKenzie 27:05 ... you, you should notice your brea- you know, potentially. That, that's not ne- somewhere where you need to stop and be aware of your breathing, but you'll see in those instances where breaths get hold, [gasps] and then [panting] you know, breaths picks up, right? High, you know, stress situations, you know? So i- it- it- it's just this becomes a very big opening if you can just be aware of it. Now, the, the optimization factor comes into where I start learning how to manipulate that to bring myself more present or to downshift myself more.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 27:38 I keep thinking of, um, yesterday's Art of Breath clinic. And in the afternoon, Rob, who's, who's sitting in the room with us, um, we did this program where, you know, he, he had us do various, um, you know, various movements at certain intensities, uh, in a, in a particular way. And the second time we started to focus on our breathing, various different protocols. We'd focus on them as a way of, uh, actively recovering or, or actually recovering in a slightly different way. And yes, it was great to see how quickly, uh, w- I recovered, but the thing that really, uh, struck home for me was right at the end when Rob said, "Yeah, and what were you thinking about the first time you were recovering when you, you had no breath to think about, you were just sort of waiting your 90 seconds till your next movement," and the second time when I was actually actively thinking about my breath. And it was, it was incredible because in an instant, that monkey mind just switches off because the second time round when I was focusing on a particular breathing pattern, I wasn't thinking about what I'm gonna have for dinner tonight or how many emails I've got in my inbox that I've not needed, that I've not responded to yet. Some people are getting irate.

Brian MacKenzie 28:51 You know, it, it, it's you give somebody something to do, and all of a sudden they become present in the moment with what that... You know, if you've got something that can do that, that's a serious tool, right? And, and that's what this is, is it, it's I don't need this thing. It's accessible anytime, anywhere, any place. In the moment I'm not aware of it, I'm probably drifting a little bit or letting things go. But then the more I train it, right, like, the almost easier it is to access the points that we actually feel like we're in this content-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 29:27 Yeah

Brian MacKenzie 29:27 ... place, you know?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 29:29 Well, well, let's go into some details. Um-

Brian MacKenzie 29:31 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 29:31 ... th- one of the slides that was put up yesterday is one that I really liked. There was two, um, two circles. One was stimulus-

Brian MacKenzie 29:39 Mm-hmm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 29:39 ... and one was response.

Brian MacKenzie 29:41 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 29:41 And where those circles overlapped in the middle, that's that sort of, that's that, uh, for me, that's where the gold lies. That's where, you know, what happens in that space between stimulus and response I think is the key to us owning ourselves, owning our minds, actually being in control of our lives and not being a passenger, but being the driver. And your experience maybe a year, year and a half ago-

Brian MacKenzie 30:06 Mm-hmm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 30:06 ... um, where you were playing with your nephews-

Brian MacKenzie 30:08 Nephews, yep

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 30:09 ... and you had a pretty serious accident.

Brian MacKenzie 30:11 Yep.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 30:12 I think that's a great example of what does one do in between stimulus and response. Because for many people, I suspect they would not have reacted in the way you did. So I wonder if you could take us through exactly what happened or what you were feeling, and then what you did-

Brian MacKenzie 30:28 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 30:28 ... to influence your response.

Brian MacKenzie 30:29 Yeah. Uh, well, A- I, right, have done a lot... Uh, I, I consider that I've done, you know, a, a lot of work on myself. Um, I'm by no means a museum picture perfect [laughs] example of anything. Um, but I've also at that point had had probably a breath practice, a heavy duty breath practice for five years, right? Um, I, I was with my sister and her kids, and we were-- she has four kids that she at-home schools. She's a rock star. Um, and we went down to go play at the local school on the kids' jungle gym, and a game of tag began, and they asked if I would play, and I played. And all the sudden my nephew was it, and he was close to me. Um, and so I was on the ground and he was running after me, and I saw the ladder that ran up and it kinda spiraled up and went to a platform that went off across the top. I went up that ladder and about seven, eight feet up there's a gap. There was a gap in between the ladder to where a kid, you know, can fit right through and go onto this plank. I did not see the bar up top and so I went straight up directly into the top of my skull, um, and it compressed my spine and I went lights out right there and dropped and hit and did a back flip off from what I was told and landed on the ground. Um, and I woke up and I could not move and I at that moment realized that I had a choice. And this is that Viktor Frankl quote, you know, "Between stimulus and ch- uh, stimulus and response is choice," and that's where growth happens. I knew at that moment that there was gonna be a lot of people affected by what had just happened. And I f- I have a problem sometimes but part of me is like I feel a responsibility to a lot of things. Um, and so I took my breath practice into account and I knew that if I had d- defaulted into freaking out, [panting] "Holy shit, holy shit. Oh my God, I think I broke my neck," that, that probably would've pushed some things emotionally that could've made a disruption in a lot of that long term. Um, meaning not dealing with it appropriately versus going, "Okay, you might've broken your neck. The best thing you can do is control your breathing right now," and that is exactly what I did. And so I just took a few deep breaths, controlled my breathing, asked my nephew to get, uh, Erin, who was my wife, and she came and was like, "What happened?" And my sister got there and was like, "Oh my God." And I said, "Just call 911 and get the paramedics. I'm pretty sure I broke my neck." And I just stayed calm and just accepted the fact that there was a new game, and I was gonna need to figure out whether I was gonna walk or move again and/or how I was going to function in the best possible way I could with what I could progress. That was literally what I defaulted into.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 33:36 Did, did you feel as calm as you sound now talking about it?

Brian MacKenzie 33:42 Ye- y- yes. Not in the split se- in the split second when it happened and I wa- and I was like, "Oh shit, I'm paralyzed," like, that, that instant of, "Oh shit, I'm paralyzed" was, oh, but then it was, well, what's the reality of this? What, what's really... L- like remove all of the stories that I'm coming up with right now. Here's anxiety. Oh my God, I'm gonna have to have somebody push me around or I'm gonna need to push myself around. I'm not gonna be able to get up and do things. Somebody else is gonna need to clean me. The, uh, just all these things starting to ramp in versus, hey, regardless if these things actually do happen, h- how can you improve all of this? How could you make this better? How, what's... Like I, I like to train and expose things and, and figure out where that exposure is in my life right now. Why can't I do that in another situation? And there's people who are doing this every day, like normally. Like this is their life, and so why do I get-- why, why do I need to make this more than it needs to be and realistically look at this? This doesn't mean that I, there's not gonna be things to deal with with this. Um, but that was the, the idea-- like that was what was coming out of me and so I was pretty calm. And the, and the, and, you know, the, um, firefighters that get, got there were, you know, they were actually pretty surprised that I was as calm [laughs] as I was. And then the, the paramedic who had me, I mean, he literally just cut me down and stripped me down. He's like, "I'm sorry dude, like I gotta do this." And I'm like, "It's all right man." And he was just like, "Wow." And you know, my hands started coming back. Like I started getting really bad neurogenic pains. [laughs] Like it was really painful but he's like, "Grab my finger" and I grabbed it and he, and he l- literally was like, "Holy crap." He's like, "Hey, uh, I'm not the doctor but um, I think you may be better off than you think right now." And I'm like, "It doesn't matter man like let's just, you know, let's just do this." [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 35:37 Do, do you look back on that now with, with any sense of pride in the sense that... 'Cause that's a very impressive story on one level. It's like wow, I'm not sure I could react like that in that situation. I'm sure most people feel, wow there's no way I could have that, uh, degree of control and that sort of presence to stay calm in that situation-

Brian MacKenzie 36:01 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 36:01 ... which I'm sure has helped your recovery.

Brian MacKenzie 36:03 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 36:03 Uh, there, there's no question that will have done. Do you look back on that and go, "Hey that's pretty cool actually that I was able to do that?" Does it, does it feel good on, on a deep level?

Brian MacKenzie 36:13 Maybe parts of it. I haven't thought of it like that. I think of it like this. Um, you know we take a lot of pride in what we're passionate about, um, and I say we like myself, Rob, Danny and the crew of people I work with. And we really like learning and but on top of that is we also like ... telling stories and making stories really good. And so part of what we do is a, like, it's really focused on how we share. So we, we study things like stand-up comedy, and we watch these things. I don't wanna be a stand-up comedian, but I really believe at the heart of intelligence are, i- is stand-up comedians. Um, anybody able to look at life in, in the way that a comedian does i- is, is an A+ in my book. Um, if you can't laugh at everything, then you're missing some part of intelligence. And I'm willing to laugh at the fact that maybe I was gonna be in a wheelchair. I don't think that I- I'm any better than anybody else for the way I handle it, but here's the thing. I tell stories about going and running 100 miles and it being the most painful thing I have ever experienced in my life, and don't know... Like, I, I remember it being so painful that I was like, "I can't take another step," and then literally within an instant that disappeared and I was pain-free. And, like, I talk about that in a very romanticized

Brian MacKenzie 37:44 way, right? In a, in a story way. I got to go dive with great white sharks. I didn't just go sit in a cage. I went down in the cage 40 feet and got out of it with other divers and swam with great white sharks and took pictures for research. I got to experience the fact that I am in front of a dinosaur, that if it chose in a split second I wasn't going to exist, I wouldn't exist.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 38:12 Why did you do that?

Brian MacKenzie 38:13 I, we were trying to under- We're, we're understanding fear, and I wanna understand ventilat- I wanna understand breath control and what I could actually do in order to help myself in situations that actually I'm putting myself in these things, these extreme situations.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 38:27 So, so just to be clear, you are deep down in the ocean-

Brian MacKenzie 38:31 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 38:31 ... and you can see a great white shark in front of you. How far away?

Brian MacKenzie 38:35 Uh, the wall. The, the... Like real- like legitimately-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 38:40 So, so, so three meters maybe. Three.

Brian MacKenzie 38:42 Oh, oh, e- easy. Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 38:43 Two, three meters away.

Brian MacKenzie 38:44 But that, that was one of five.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 38:46 One of five great white sharks.

Brian MacKenzie 38:47 Just circling.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 38:48 So you have voluntarily put yourself in an environment-

Brian MacKenzie 38:52 Mm-hmm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 38:52 ... where you could die in an instance.

Brian MacKenzie 38:55 In an instant.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 38:56 Okay.

Brian MacKenzie 38:56 For the experience. But think about this. I go around and talk about these things to people in a context of a story. So we arc a storyline about this stuff. Of course, I should react the way that I did when I almost broke my neck. What the fuck am I doing w- with my life? What am I... What is my experience? If I'm not learning from my experiences and understanding that if I was in the most painful moment I have ever experienced, and then all of a sudden it disappears in an instant because of the way I'm thinking, is pain nothing more than just a response or a stimulus or maybe even just an illusion that I'm creating? So what is it that, that I'm experiencing? So, and, and not going too deep with that, you go and put yourself in front of a shark that you know is going to... And I, that wasn't the first time I dove with sharks. I, I, I dove with other sharks that w- were pretty docile, like Galapaga- Galapagos sharks. Like, they're not gonna attack you usually. But y- you know, it, it, it's... I've had some experience in these things to go and understand what this is, and behavior patterns are pretty evident, like when you start to look at things. Behave like prey, get treated like prey. So don't behave like prey.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 40:13 So how does prey behave?

Brian MacKenzie 40:15 What, what would a seal do if there was a great white shark around? It'd run.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 40:21 Run.

Brian MacKenzie 40:21 Right?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 40:21 A- activate their stress response.

Brian MacKenzie 40:23 Or it would freeze, right?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 40:25 Yeah.

Brian MacKenzie 40:25 Yeah. It doesn't fight and it doesn't stay in the situation.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 40:30 Okay.

Brian MacKenzie 40:30 Right? So the sharks actually are confused or even curious when you're down with them in an environment. And I'm not saying this... Please don't go diving with sharks on your free will just to, like, do this. Do this w- if you're gonna wanna do this, do it with a professional. And guys, I was doing it with guys who've pioneered this whole thing. But the entire idea is w- what do you think a predator does? Like, you have to actually adapt to its environment. So i- if, if you're... The, the shark is just curious that you're at its depth, not on the surface [laughs] and not running.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 41:08 Yeah.

Brian MacKenzie 41:08 Right? Like, not-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 41:09 That's confusing.

Brian MacKenzie 41:10 It's totally confus- so the shark's curious. It literally, they, they just were you-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 41:13 So what, what, what are you doing at the moment? Are you, are you controlling your breath?

Brian MacKenzie 41:17 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 41:17 Are you-

Brian MacKenzie 41:18 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 41:18 ... are, are you trying to basically not give out any signal that you are trying to run, that you are at all stressed? You're trying to say, "Hey, I'm totally chill. Hey, how you doing, buddy?"

Brian MacKenzie 41:30 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 41:30 Kind of thing.

Brian MacKenzie 41:31 Sort, yeah. Sort of. I mean, one of the most tell, um, important things I've ever been told by, you know, someone, uh, Michael Muller, who is a world famous photographer and videographer, um, he, he's here in LA. He was on... He's the one who, uh, organized the shark dive that we went with from Stanford, and he just looked at me right before we got in the cage and he just said, "Don't get mesmerized by one." And I was just... It clicked. I was like, "Got it. Got it." Can't just be mesmerized by the one shark that you think because there's going to be m- there's other sharks. And so you just need to be understanding your environment and what's going on. If I'm aware of my environment as best I can, then I can actually navigate that.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 42:15 Brian, as you're telling that story, um, the thing that pops into my head was if you act like prey, you will be treated like prey.

Brian MacKenzie 42:27 [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 42:28 And you have taken, you know, to what many people would consider quite an extreme example, going deep down in the ocean with a predator who can kill you. But if we sort of step out of that and look at many people's day-to-day lives- I'm thinking, well, when you go into your office and you see your boss or your work colleagues and you're getting stressed out, the way you act will influence the way they perceive you. So this isn't actually about a great white shark in the ocean.

Brian MacKenzie 43:00 Got it.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 43:00 This is actually to me about how as a human being, how can I control my actions? If I have control over myself, if I have control over my internal state, I can potentially influence people around me.

Brian MacKenzie 43:16 What are you learning? What are you doing, what you're doing for why you're doing it? What, what, what is the purpose of your life? If you're not learning from the things that you're doing, how that, like, this is exactly it. Like, and this is evident even, even in like when we look at hormones, you know? Like Dr. Robert Sapolsky has done a ton of work-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 43:36 Yeah

Brian MacKenzie 43:36 ... around this stuff, right? And you look at the hierarchy of even baboons and how, like, clean the physiology is of dominant males, right? And then how all of a sudden as you start trickling down with the males in the tribe, right? Like, their, the- their physiology is a little bit more disrupted, more disrupted, more disrupted. Like, you know, cardiac disease, things like this start to show up. Low testosterone, right? But yet when v- you feel, or those monkeys are put in an environment where they all feel equal, that totally changes, and hormone levels change. The way people feel changes. Like, their physiology changes. Y- y- y- so if I go in and, yeah, I might have a superior who I work with, but like, like look, I'm I guess the CEO of my organization, but I literally have conversations and take input from everybody in my organization. I try and make everybody feel like they are at the top of the food chain so that, you know... And sometimes that can backfire [laughs] with personalities, but the fact of the matter is, is there's a reason why I do that, and I don't want to be this dominant thing that's, you know... And I, I don't like that. But, you know, I also, it's exactly what you're getting at, is that this is the society we actually... Like, if we victimize ourselves, that's a problem, and that's unfortunately where we're at right now, is we are a victim culture.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 45:11 Yeah.

Brian MacKenzie 45:11 And w- we're, we all should have equal opportunity, but if I'm victimizing myself to the degree that I'm alienating a specific group for my problems-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 45:23 Yeah

Brian MacKenzie 45:23 ... we got a problem. We got a big problem, and that is gonna come back and bite us in the butt in a way that's not gonna... It, it's own who you are and be able to feel where you're at. And if you don't like the situation you're in, take yourself out of that situation. Move out of the city, [laughs] right? Move out of the city and go, you know, to the nature and get a simple life and become a blues owner.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 45:44 Yeah, for sure. Yeah, I've been s- seeing patients now for nearly 20 years.

Brian MacKenzie 45:47 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 45:48 And it's become super clear to me that actually, you gotta be careful how you say this, um, because it's not about putting blame on people, but there is essentially a story that when we get ill, when we're not feeling good, we create a story and that becomes our daily narrative.

Brian MacKenzie 46:06 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 46:07 And I find that that almost imprisons the person who is suffering because the more you tell yourself that story, the more you stay locked in that pattern. And ultimately, the ones who I feel break free and, um, get better, like completely better, are generally the ones who've taken ownership of that story and actually decide to change the narrative.

Brian MacKenzie 46:31 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 46:31 So it's in our mind, uh, where we can have the most positive influence on our, on our, on our, the way we feel, on our physical body. It all comes down to the mind. If we think back to you when you had that accident-

Brian MacKenzie 46:45 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 46:46 ... and when you thought you were gonna be paralyzed. So you had a couple of options. One option was to panic, and presumably to breathe fast and to freak out everyone around you, including your nephews, that, well, hey, what's gonna happen? But you chose a different path, and I wanna contrast that with something that happened to me a few months ago, maybe, maybe four months ago now. So I'm a relatively fit guy, but I didn't really do endurance. I, you know, I'm, I'm all about fitting in quick body weight workouts where I can. So, you know, 10, 20

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 47:16 minutes here, here and there. And I got invited to do something called swimrun. Are you familiar with the sport swimrun?

Brian MacKenzie 47:23 Mm-hmm. Duathlon?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 47:25 Yeah. But it's, it's when you-

Brian MacKenzie 47:27 Like no bike, it's just running and swimming?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 47:28 Running and swimming, but you run, uh, in your wetsuit and you swim with your shoes on. So you-

Brian MacKenzie 47:33 Oh.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 47:33 It's, it's-

Brian MacKenzie 47:34 No, I'm not familiar with that one.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 47:35 Yeah, you would love it.

Brian MacKenzie 47:36 That sounds, yeah, sounds fun. [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 47:37 It, it's amazing. Um, and you know, it came from Sweden, where you'd run a little bit. You, you... It's to get from island to island. You'd swim-

Brian MacKenzie 47:43 Makes sense now. [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 47:44 You'd swim from one island to, to another, and then you'd run across the island, then you'd swim. So it's-

Brian MacKenzie 47:49 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 47:49 ... you do a bit of running, bit of swimming, bit of running, bit of swimming. And I'm friends with the guys at Vivobarefoot, 'cause I'm hugely into barefoot shoes and minimalist living, and, uh, they invited me to their annual swimrun event. And I thought, in my head I thought, yeah, I'm gonna train for this. I'm gonna get... Yeah, I'm gonna be ready for it. Um, I didn't. Uh, [laughs] things were busy. I, I just didn't get around to it. And a few days before it, I phoned them and said, "Hey, guys, I'm gonna come down for the weekend because, you know, it's a beautiful part of the country, you know," and we were booked to come with my wife and my kids to go, but I'm not gonna compete. I've still never, ever swum in open water. Never. You know, I, I grew up in a city. I have not, I had not swum in open water at that time, even though I could technically swim.

Brian MacKenzie 48:33 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 48:34 But they persuaded me. They said, "Rangan, look, this is the best environment to start in. There's safety boats everywhere." And I, I've always actually, probably a bit like you, I've always jumped off and done things that I probably shouldn't do because I find that's where the growth happens, and it's just something I've always been wired that way a little bit. So anyway, I do the event. And it's, um... I mean, people who listen to my podcast have heard me tell this story before, but I- I'm interested in your perspective on this in the context of the breath and the stress response. So the first swim was very short relative. It was just a 250-meter swim.

Brian MacKenzie 49:07 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 49:07 Then there was gonna be a 2.5K run, then a 600-meter swim, then a 7K run, then a 1.2K swim, and then I think another 5K run. Anyway, so I thought, when I looked at it, I thought, "Okay, I could probably do the 250-meter swim, you know, 'cause I can do that in the pool even though I stop after every couple of lengths." So I go with my partner. We go in the water. It's cold, right? And, and just to put it in real perspective for you, and I know it may be hard to imagine given that you grew up, I think, in, in LA, you've always been in the ocean-

Brian MacKenzie 49:40 Mm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 49:41 ... I w- I got cold. I'd never worn a wetsuit before. So literally, an hour before the race, I'm getting the wetsuit out of its box, not even tried it on to see if it fits me. So I put the wetsuit [laughs] on, getting my shoes on. I get in the water. It's freezing. And I'm like, "Okay, okay, okay, cool. Try and stay calm." Anyway, 100 meters into this swim, when I realize I can no longer see the bottom, I start to freak out.

Brian MacKenzie 50:04 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 50:04 Like, I am... I, you know, I'm breathing fast. I'm... I actually grab onto my partner saying, "Oh my God, I shouldn't be here." And, um, I panicked. I completely panicked and, and for, for about five minutes I wouldn't swim. I was just, like, madly treading water. It just so happened that I managed to get through that. I thought, "If I finish this swim, there's no way in hell I'm getting back in the water for the next two swims. Just get me onto land." Anyway, my stubbornness, once I got onto land, I did the next 2.5K run. And then I looked at the next swim and I thought, "Come on, Rangan, you can do this." I ended up completing the event, okay? Um, which I'm v- extremely proud of myself for having done that. But I wanna go back to that episode, 100 meters in, where I am panicking.

Brian MacKenzie 50:50 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 50:50 So I wonder if we could use that as an example of explaining what was going on in my body at that time, because you could have gone into that state when you had your accident.

Brian MacKenzie 51:03 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 51:03 But you didn't. You had, you know, you had done the hard work on yourself, on your breathing, so you were able to control your response in that moment. I was not able to. So I wonder if you could compare and contrast those things and, and expand on what was going on.

Brian MacKenzie 51:20 Practice. [laughs] Um, I, I think the amount of practice I've had to understand, probably comparatively speaking, that's couldn't be a definitive unless I totally understood everything going on with you. Um, what was going on in the body i- i- is basically a response to not wanting to be in a situation. This goes into the story that we tell on the lion and the antelope, where, you know, the lion and the antelope, this situation plays itself out every day, that lions and antelopes exist in the same ecosystem, in the same place, usually not too far from each other, perfectly fine until the lion decides it wants to eat the antelope, right? And then, boom [slaps table] , lion turns on, goes after the antelope. And when we look at their physiology, there's no real difference between the physiology if we break them down, right? If it was a dashboard, we would see the same exact things physiologically speaking if we were looking at each of these animals, right?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 52:19 So d- you, you... what you're saying is when a lion is chasing an antelope, they are both exhibiting the same physiology. They're both in a s- they're, they're be-

Brian MacKenzie 52:27 Heightened sympathetic state. Heightened heart rate, pupil size, acetylcholine, like your neurotransmissions.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 52:33 Everything's the same.

Brian MacKenzie 52:34 It's s-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 52:34 Even though one is chasing and one is being chased-

Brian MacKenzie 52:36 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 52:36 ... it's still the same.

Brian MacKenzie 52:37 Yeah, and here's the unique thing about us compared to them. We have the choice of deciding whether we're where we wanna be in that situation. Meaning if I wanted... If I was the antelope and I wanted to choose that I wanted to turn it on the lion or I wanted to be in that situation, even though that's probably not gonna happen, we can make that choice. So when I'm in a situation, and I'm just-- I'm using this as a, you know, an analogy. Take your situation in the water where you're panicking. You chose to do the one thing that's going to jeopardize your life the most, yet that's the one thing you're giving a f- crap about at that point. Like, that's what you're totally concerned with. I can't see the bottom. I... Oh my gosh, like, am I gonna die or what's gonna happen? My kids, my, you know, my wife, like my family. Like, you're go- this Rolodex of crap is going on because you've created this emotional response to something that's just a story, right? And it is just a story because you actually continued and then went on to do-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 53:41 Yeah

Brian MacKenzie 53:41 ... the next legs. And so you did the exact thing that you... is counterintuitive to what we wanna do, right? I- I- and we all do it. I'm, like, I, I'm not exempt from this. I do this all... I've done-- I do this routinely. It's just I have to remind myself when I'm doing it, this is where the work comes in. Like, when s- things, when, when things hit the fan or it, it's, an explosion happens-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 54:04 [laughs]

Brian MacKenzie 54:05 ... what do you default to?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 54:06 And familiarity-

Brian MacKenzie 54:06 How much work-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 54:07 F- familiarity is key, right? As you say because-

Brian MacKenzie 54:09 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 54:10 ... you could put me on top of a, uh, you know, a, a steep mountain with deep powder, with, you know, no tracks-

Brian MacKenzie 54:17 Exactly

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 54:18 ... and I'm fine.

Brian MacKenzie 54:19 Exactly.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 54:19 Because I've been in that situation-

Brian MacKenzie 54:21 Exactly

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 54:21 ... so much that that doesn't activate my stress response.

Brian MacKenzie 54:24 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 54:24 For me, that's like, yeah, cool. This is great. I'm gonna have fun now.

Brian MacKenzie 54:27 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 54:27 But put me in the ocean, and suddenly it's a completely different response even though I am capable of swimming 250 meters without stopping. Rational brain knows I can do that.

Brian MacKenzie 54:36 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 54:37 But emotional brain is suddenly thinking, "Wait a minute"

Brian MacKenzie 54:39 So your emotions got the best of you in the... And, and then when I say that, that means your limbic system went into overdrive and your stories just started to unravel based on that, right? And so the cortex started, the chatter began, right? Versus ... interception point becomes brain stem, I control my breathing or my vision in that case, right? [laughs] Like, I peripherally look at a horizon, right? I go peripheral, I can shift autonomic response that way as well. Those, those are the two ways that we have volitional control over our autonomic nervous system.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 55:15 That, that was one of the beautiful things I learned yesterday, was you were saying that it's either vision or breathing. These two things allow you to control these autonomic or these unconscious processes that are happening in our body that otherwise we can't or we don't feel we've got control over. And I didn't know about vision-

Brian MacKenzie 55:31 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 55:31 ... actually yesterday.

Brian MacKenzie 55:31 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 55:31 But we were doing one of those drills yesterday where you're saying but this time when you're, when you're holding your breath and you're walking and you, you feel as though actually you're gonna have to breathe and drop this, you know, make your vision more, more peripheral-

Brian MacKenzie 55:45 Mm-hmm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 55:45 ... less focused. And it, and it works.

Brian MacKenzie 55:47 Yeah. A- and this is the work of Dr. Andrew Huberman, who's really bringing this to light, um, he- and, and who we've worked really closely with at Stanford. He's the reason why I went shark diving.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 55:56 Right.

Brian MacKenzie 55:56 Right? Like, he contracted me to come in to do breathwork for them. But we have been, we've had a relationship because we both are coming at this autonomic nervous system thing with... We're both-- We've got, we've been going after breathing because we knew about the control, and he's n- knows about the vision. And so there's been this, you know, m- mix of, of stuff, and he's done some really good work here. But this is... Like, I mean, look, who freaks out looking at a sunset? Nobody ever that I've ever seen. [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 56:28 Yeah.

Brian MacKenzie 56:28 Go look at a sunset and you're gonna basically downshift. It's just math. It's literally a mathematical equation that happens when you do those things, right? So it's just a simple play into something that I understand or that I have worked enough to go, hey, m- the behavior that I'm eliciting right now is counterintuitive to what I actually think like I, I wanna do. So I knew in the instant of me potentially breaking my neck that I don't wanna do the thing that is counter to what I need to be doing right now, which is have my head about me and not overreact to something. And if I need to process this a bit more later, I will. And I ha- and I did, and I have, and I've worked on that stuff and... You know, but it's not... Like, I, this isn't my identity. The only reason I brought it up was ba- based on the fact that we're storytellers in what we do, and this is the basic context of why we're doing, like, why the work we're doing is very different, is we are not only just focused on the work, but we're focused on the shape of the stories and how those things are coming in and how we're sharing this information so that it's actually resonating. So when somebody is in a panic situation, they go, "Oh, [laughs] I'm gonna control this right now because I can't control anything else because my mind's racing." Yeah, control that until you can actually calm it down and then proceed.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 57:55 I love what you just said, Brian, about that that is not your identity. I think that's so powerful because these kind of big inc- incidents in our lives when they happen, we do tell ourselves a story about it. We create a story. You know, there's many ways to interpret an event, and we, we can create a story multiple ways, but that almost becomes our identity. That is who we are. And it's so, so beautiful to hear you say that, that is not your identity. In many ways, I'm looking at it thinking, hey, that was just another day in Brian MacKenzie's life, stimulus and response. This was quite a big stimulus, but I still had control over my response. Y- you know, it, it's quite a refreshing way of looking at it. It's just another thing that's gonna happen, because we can't predict the future, right?

Brian MacKenzie 58:38 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 58:38 So each and every single one of us-

Brian MacKenzie 58:40 Oh, we believe we can, though.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 58:42 Yeah. Well-

Brian MacKenzie 58:42 Behaviorally we believe we can, but the truth is, is we cannot.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 58:46 Yeah. And that's one of the beautiful things, I think, about training our breath, training how we control it, because then for whatever comes up in our life that we can't predict, we have a tool to be able to control that. And it's, you know, um, just to, just to finish off that story for you, so, you know, I, I don't know what you would think of this, um, I don't like to be beaten by things, and so when I had completed that, I was like, okay, so Rangan, you technically can do that. So any opportunity I get, I go into open water now.

Brian MacKenzie 59:17 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 59:18 And then, you know, I don't live near open water, so it's not that easy for me. But this summer I went and stayed with some friends in Devon in, in, uh, the south coast of the UK, and my friend said, "Come on, Rangan, we're gonna swim around the islands." I'm like, "What? That island there?" He said, "Yeah." I'm like, "Mate, are you kidding me? I, I could barely get in the water two months ago." He goes, "No, no, it's fine. It's like 1, 1.5K, you'll be fine." Anyway, I went swimming every day in the ocean, just k- kept going out and going out, and then I thought, okay, let's just go and do it. And we just went one morning, didn't think about it, before breakfast went out, swam around the whole damn islands. And for me it's, it's been great to l- understand that three months ago I couldn't do this. Uh, now I've just swum 1.5K round an island in open water, and I couldn't even do 100 meters without panicking just a few months ago. And that also teaches me how quickly you can change things, how quickly you can change a story, how quickly actually you are able to change things in your life. And I want people to hear that-

Brian MacKenzie 1:00:18 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:00:18 ... and, and, and it to inspire them to go, actually, you know what? The way your life currently is now, it does not have to stay that way. There are things that you can do, and it can change very, very quickly.

Brian MacKenzie 1:00:29 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:00:30 Um-

Brian MacKenzie 1:00:30 Yeah. Yeah, and I mean, the, the, [laughs] the real rabbit hole is not getting attached to the identity of being, you know, this new version-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:00:43 Yeah

Brian MacKenzie 1:00:43 ... of what you are. And that was a very profound thing that happened to me probably 10 years ago, you know? And, and, and that's like, oh, I'm, I'm now a runner. I'm an ultra runner. And then it's, oh, no, I'm a triathlete or I'm a coach or I'm this, you know? And it's like this is my new model, right? And it's like- ... that you're heading right down the same path. And understanding that is the real work, and being able to detach yourself from any of these stories and what we're trying to do. And I'm not saying, like, I, I, I encourage people to continue to push and chase changing these narratives. Try not to get caught up in the identity of what these things become. You know? It's like alcoholic, drug addict, like that's an identity. You've just pigeonholed yourself into something. And I realize that there are people who suffer pretty hard from these things. I have participated in that. I've done work in that. And we lose sight of the fact that we're human beings, and that's what we are. I'm... If I become, call it vegan, if I become paleo, if I become alcoholic, I become-- I've now stuck myself inside the bottle, and my world will shatter the moment that something ha- uh, uh, occurs outside of that. And so that's where really, like, the work really gets fun, is really understanding that.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:02:19 Yeah. I think, I think that is so, so true, and it's one of the reasons why I think things can be so polarizing on social media now.

Brian MacKenzie 1:02:27 Oh.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:02:27 And I think, in fact, I read this neuroscience study, uh, maybe about maybe a year ago, where they were just showing that actually when your identity is being challenged-

Brian MacKenzie 1:02:38 Mm-hmm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:02:38 ... you go into a fight or flight response. That is how serious, that, that's how it changes your physiology.

Brian MacKenzie 1:02:44 For real.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:02:44 And then suddenly you, it ex- it explains why social media can be so toxic. Like Twitter sometimes can be just horrific.

Brian MacKenzie 1:02:53 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:02:54 And, you know, you, you are literally going into a fight or flight response 'cause your identity is being challenged. So I think that's a very powerful statement, Brian. Don't make these things your identity.

Brian MacKenzie 1:03:01 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:03:02 It almost imprisons you-

Brian MacKenzie 1:03:03 It-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:03:03 ... because that's-

Brian MacKenzie 1:03:05 That is a cage.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:03:06 Yeah.

Brian MacKenzie 1:03:06 That is a cage.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:03:07 It's your new cage.

Brian MacKenzie 1:03:08 It, it is a cage. It-- You are-- Th- there's no if, if, and buts about it. It, it, it, it is what it is. And I, I've pigeonholed and stuck myself in these cages my entire life. I, and I have-- I am at the point of learning to be outside of the cage very, very well and constructing that in a way that allows a freedom that you do not understand freedom until you are out of that.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:03:34 Yeah, 100%. And, and Brian, I've gotta say, one of the things I respect about you the most, the way you communicate is, A, you don't claim that this breathing stuff is new, that you've come up with it. You know, you always pay homage to the fact-

Brian MacKenzie 1:03:46 We didn't, we didn't invent breathing.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:03:47 Yeah

Brian MacKenzie 1:03:48 [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:03:48 That this is, you know, there have been yoga practitioners who've been talking about this for 5,000 plus years.

Brian MacKenzie 1:03:53 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:03:54 Um, you're not criticizing people who do live in those cages. You're saying, "Hey, I have lived in that cage for much of my life, but now that I'm free from it, I, I wanna share, [laughs] you know, how good it feels."

Brian MacKenzie 1:04:06 But I think social media, and we were talking about this a little earlier, but it's like, you know, I think social media is a very toxic environment only to the degree that you don't understand its use. And this is where an identity is challenged, right? And when I, my identity is challenged on the Twitter or on Instagram or on Facebook, like that becomes this thing because I'm in this voyeuristic world of I'm behind the screen. I'm not actually in front of somebody having a conversation-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:04:37 Yeah

Brian MacKenzie 1:04:37 ... to where things just melt apart, and we do not-- Like, you just see how people kind of, the, where their behavior's at, right? A- a- and so you kinda understand a lot, like if you've done a, a lot of the work we've done, it's like you start to understand the biology of this stuff and, and how this plays, what this person's life might be playing out like. And so you can actually develop some compassion towards it. But in the same essence, I also believe social media is, even on the most minute level, doing the most basic thing that we do, and that is sharing of information. And if you are not authentically sharing information, you have misunderstood the tool. And so this is the great conundrum of why social media gets the bad rap that it does, is because when I'm taking naked sel- or half-naked selfies and this stuff and talking about things like, and there's, I guess there's nothing wrong with that, but that just doesn't do anything for me. I mean, seeing women half naked trying to glorify themselves and men trying to show off their... Like, that just isn't my thing. Like, I'm just not-- That doesn't help me, and I'm-- This is just a prime example of like, you've got a million followers because this is what you do. This isn't even real.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:05:50 Yeah.

Brian MacKenzie 1:05:50 This is not a real place. So what happens if, let's just say Instagram disappeared? What happens to you? Who do you become? And that's the idea is like, if you can authentically express who you are through this medium, you're now doing what a basic cell is doing. It's sharing information to the next cell so that we can communicate and progress in a way that's helping the totality of the system or here we go on Earth, right? And so we're missing a lot of this idea with things, and I think that's what the opportunity of social media is, is to authentically express yourself and bring forward things that you're-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:06:37 Yeah

Brian MacKenzie 1:06:37 ... learning. But if you're not learning anything, I, I'm not interested [laughs] .

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:06:43 Yeah.

Brian MacKenzie 1:06:43 I'm just not interested.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:06:44 It is, it's, it's very profound, that, Brian, because I think if you are not sharing things authentically, then what you do is that you create this identity that you then have to live up to-

Brian MacKenzie 1:06:56 Mm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:06:56 ... which isn't real. So you're then having to filter, particularly with things like Instagram Stories now. Like, if you've created this image of yourself online- ... which is not you, then actually you have to mentally, it's f- must be fatiguing every day thinking about, "Well, what is this, what is this image that I'm giving to people? I have to play up so that even if it's not how I feel today, I have to show that." It's, it is, it's, I don't know

Brian MacKenzie 1:07:19 This is, that's the entertainment world.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:07:21 Yeah.

Brian MacKenzie 1:07:21 That's what's difficult about the entertainment world. Like, I've got friends that are b- I mean, major, like, players in the entertainment world.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:07:29 Yeah.

Brian MacKenzie 1:07:29 They're like, it's so difficult. Like, you have to be so good that you d- are, like, aren't the character.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:07:37 Yeah.

Brian MacKenzie 1:07:38 Y- y- you have to become y- y- like, there's this separation of character and person.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:07:43 Yeah.

Brian MacKenzie 1:07:43 And social media has presented this place where characters are being developed that aren't authentic.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:07:49 Yeah.

Brian MacKenzie 1:07:49 And therefore, when I step out of this medium, I don't, like, this isn't, I, I have a lot of trouble existing now. And now I'm not who I'm proclaiming I am, and that's, like, that, I, I can't, that's not, does, I, I feel that. I literally feel that in my core, and so I can't do... And that's what breathing has done for me. Breathwork has allowed me to feel who I am and what I'm doing and when something's right or wrong or, or, like, what the response is. And so that ability has allowed me to transcend what it is I've gone through.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:08:24 Yeah, for sure. So breathing.

Brian MacKenzie 1:08:27 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:08:27 Okay? Many people's view of breathing is it helps me to get oxygen into my body, and oxygen is fuel.

Brian MacKenzie 1:08:35 It's the only way [laughs] .

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:08:36 Yeah, exactly. So, um, is that simply all that breathing is?

Brian MacKenzie 1:08:40 No. No. Uh, 'cause, you know, w- we, oxygen is the most important molecule we've got, right? Um, it, it, it's like in terms of for, for energy, right? Um, maybe it's not the most important. It's the thing that's allowing us to exist, right, in the manner that we are. Uh, 500 million years ago, multicellular organisms figured out how to use oxygen for fuel and, uh, thus aerobic metabolism began. The evolution has continued for that long, right? So going on that timeline and seeing that, we have not turned back from the most efficient way to produce energy, which is aerobically and bringing oxygen into the system, and that's what w- the design of the inhale of our lungs does, is it brings oxygen in the system. The only way to make that oxygen available though is another thing, you know, another gas, right? That's carbon dioxide. And so the carbon dioxide is a response to a hostile environment, I guess you could call it, and that's what we w- that's what this planet was right before multicellular organisms figured out everything, right? And then plant, a, a little algae figured out how to convert sunlight into energy and convert the sunlight in, and the byproduct of that became oxygen, right? And so the planet got engulfed in algae, and this is a c- gross, basic overview [laughs] of some serious stuff that people have done real work on, right? But that, that's toxic environment left for anaerobic metabolism, primarily in single-cell organisms to work. Now, not all single-cell organisms will function off of anaerobic metabolism, but it is a default system that we use, and they work congruently in our system, right? So when I don't have enough oxygen present, right, being used, I will, my body will just, it instantly, beautifully starts to switch over to this anaerobic system. So if there's not enough oxygen present in something, we default to another energy s- system, and that would be the anaerobic system, right? And so the using more sugar and glucose for energy because the brain and the nervous system actually require glucose f- a- as a, as its only source of fuel, right? And this is 20% of the energy we use, right? So as I inhale, I draw oxygen in, it enters the bloodstream, it goes to the bloodstream, then the mitochondria, which are the powerhouses of the cell, the organelles of the cells, go to work and use the oxygen. The only way for that oxygen to come off the red blood cell through blood is by carbon dioxide replacing that molecule in the red blood cell. And so I need to have enough carbon dioxide present in order to make the environment, let's call it perfect for oxygen to work. Now, we're doing this in a very regulated way all day long, 26,000 breaths, right? W- w- you're using oxygen predominantly, but how much are we using that oxygen? And that starts to show up in things like if we look at respiration rate, well, like the Buteyko method, I think the Buteyko folks believe, um, and this is a method that was designed, uh, by Konstantin Buteyko, um, out of Russia, um, the former Soviet Union, uh, that 80% of the population roughly chronically hyperventilates, which means they're over-breathing. And so when I over-breathe, when I breathe, have a re- high respiration rate, I'm actually blowing off or getting rid of more carbon dioxide than probably necessary. So hyperventilation becomes a stress reaction, right? A higher stress reaction, I breathe more. Think of working out. You start running, your respiration rate, your, you know, y- you start to breathe more frequently, right?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:12:46 Yeah.

Brian MacKenzie 1:12:47 Stress is the same thing. If I'm sitting here and you're stressing me out in any way, shape, or form, my respiration rate will tend to follow if I am stressed out, unless I'm actually aware of this. This is where consciousness and awareness have a game or a play, right? So where I can take volitional control over my breathing and manage that or train that in a way to bring me back to a place to where I'm actually using that oxygen. And this is also known as the Bohr effect to a large degree, is having enough acid in the environment in order for the oxygen to be used. And so that's why breath control becomes such a big player in things, is I can actually optimize myself to use more oxygen.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:13:30 Yeah. I mean, super incredible and- You know, in the morning of your Art and Breath Clinic, uh, course-

Brian MacKenzie 1:13:38 Mm-hmm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:13:38 ... I don't know what you call it, uh, yesterday, um, that was... It was really great to understand that, that of course we need oxygen. We know we need oxygen. But actually, in order for that oxygen to, to come off and do the, do, you know, the magic that we want it to do in our body, we need enough CO2, carbon dioxides, but we have become a carbon dioxide intolerant society.

Brian MacKenzie 1:14:05 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:14:05 You know, 80% of us potentially are over-breathing, which means we're blowing off too much carbon dioxide. So yes, the breathing is, you know, we want oxygen, but without enough carbon dioxide, we can't use it.

Brian MacKenzie 1:14:17 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:14:18 And I say when I, when I talk to people, and it says what, how I wrote about breathing in, in, in The Stress Solution was about breathing is information. Breathing is information for your body. The way you breathe what's give your brain information. Are you in danger or are you safe? And I say to some people, look, when you are on deadlines and you have 10 emails to get back to you and a few projects to finish, you are probably changing your breathing without realizing it. You are probably breathing more from your chest than your diaphragm. You're probably speeding up your rate, and that is sending information to your brain that is, again, is like a vicious cycle. Um, and, and I love that, that test you guys do, um, with your students, the, the CO2 tolerance test-

Brian MacKenzie 1:15:00 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:15:00 ... um, which I found super, super interesting.

Brian MacKenzie 1:15:03 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:15:03 So I wonder if you could just unpack that for-

Brian MacKenzie 1:15:04 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:15:05 ... you know, maybe layman who might be listening to this, um, you know, what does it mean to be CO2 intolerant or-

Brian MacKenzie 1:15:13 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:15:13 ... carbon dioxide intolerance?

Brian MacKenzie 1:15:14 Yeah. So we're, we're currently working on defining this. Um, and, and a lot of the work Rob does, who's is my, uh, partner in this with The Art of Breath, um, and who's my counterpart in what we do, um, has come up with a term that I think is probably gonna pr- take off, and that is w- how w- what... This is psychometabolic reactivity. And so the-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:15:42 Snappy.

Brian MacKenzie 1:15:43 Yeah, isn't it?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:15:44 I love it.

Brian MacKenzie 1:15:44 But-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:15:44 I do actually. [laughs]

Brian MacKenzie 1:15:45 Yeah. Well, I, I, I look at this as how well we're willing to optimize this, so psychometabolic optimization and how you react to what is the metabolic waste product of energy. That is CO2. So it's, it comes down to our relationship to CO2. And so we'll take this to when you were swimming and you went into that panic attack and, you know, not seeing the bottom of the, the floor of the ocean anymore, and you went into an override. I can guarantee you, based on our work, now we'd have to prove this, but we currently have plenty of research starting to show this, um, that your CO2 tolerance hit the floor when that happened, meaning there was n- elevated levels of CO2, and you started to react to that because of the context of the story and what was going on.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:16:43 Hold on. So let, let's go through that. So I was swimming.

Brian MacKenzie 1:16:46 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:16:46 Okay? No problem, I'm strong.

Brian MacKenzie 1:16:48 High, higher levels of CO2 because of work.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:16:51 Okay. So I was working, and therefore I'm starting to build up carbon dioxide in my blood.

Brian MacKenzie 1:16:56 That's why your respiration rate ran up.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:16:58 So everything goes up to, you know, and this presumably will happen if someone's running or-

Brian MacKenzie 1:17:02 Yep

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:17:02 ... anything that they're doing.

Brian MacKenzie 1:17:03 Yes. Correct.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:17:04 So, but then I hit a point where I got scared.

Brian MacKenzie 1:17:07 Yep.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:17:08 So I've already got raised levels of CO2, so I'm hyperventilating to, I'm assuming, to get rid of that CO2.

Brian MacKenzie 1:17:15 You got it. You literally... So the only time that you don't react to anything with your breath is when you're dead. Your brain stem is online. It's a part of everything you're gonna do. So y- y- you're gonna react in any instance to your environment, to what your perception is, hearing, smelling, seeing, taste, touch, right? So your five senses are here by design to help with all of this and signal even to that, to, to that respiration pattern what I need to do based on w- h- how I need to optimize myself, self-regulate, right? Well, my thinking's off, so self-regulation right now, I'm responding to the CO2 that's in my blood. Now, it didn't need to be that high. Your CO2 did not need to be that high. You could have dropped that with, like, if you're, like, let's say you hate flying.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:18:12 Yeah.

Brian MacKenzie 1:18:12 Like, like I'm not a big fan of flying. I've gotten good at it, right? Because I've, I've done work at it, [laughs] right? Control your breathing while you're doing it so that when things start to shake or start to do things and you think the plane's gonna go down or whatever, that's just a story. Like, that's really just a story. And so it's the conte- the... And so now I'm responding through the lim... Like, these emotions that are happening through this story, right? And my respiration center responds to that. So controlling my breathing allows me to manage the carbon dioxide. And what happens in a panic situation? What, what, what's one of the, you know, things we do for people when they're freaking out? And-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:18:53 Brown paper bag.

Brian MacKenzie 1:18:54 Bingo. Brown paper bag on the face, breathe into it.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:18:57 So what's going on there?

Brian MacKenzie 1:18:57 Why? CO2 is you're re- re-breathing. You're actually using more of the oxygen that you've got, right?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:19:06 So just unpack that for people listening to this. You're having a panic attack, you're over-breathing.

Brian MacKenzie 1:19:10 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:19:10 So you're blowing off a lot of carbon dioxide.

Brian MacKenzie 1:19:13 Yeah. So remember what I said about how we default into aerob- So we have an aerobic system or we default into anaerobic.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:19:20 Yeah.

Brian MacKenzie 1:19:20 What happens when we don't have enough carbon dioxide in the environment?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:19:24 We're not able to utilize any oxygen that we have. We're not able to get that off.

Brian MacKenzie 1:19:27 What does the brain need to function?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:19:29 Oxygen.

Brian MacKenzie 1:19:29 Ba-doom.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:19:31 So suddenly we don't have enough oxygen. So what is the brown paper bag doing?

Brian MacKenzie 1:19:36 The, it, it's recirculating the carbon dioxide that you're, you're re-breathing. It's basically a rebreather

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:19:41 So you're putting more carbon dioxide back in?

Brian MacKenzie 1:19:43 Now, you couldn't do this, you couldn't breathe into this bag for five minutes. You know? You, you, it's just a few breaths, right? But you're re-breathing and getting... You're tri- you're basically tricking the brain.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:19:54 Yeah

Brian MacKenzie 1:19:54 And there, there, uh, Dr. Justin Feinstein out of Oklahoma is doing work on bolus hits right now of carbon dioxide with h- super high anxiety patients-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:20:03 Yeah

Brian MacKenzie 1:20:03 ... and having insane results. Like, people getting one hit and just, like, this freak-out mode thing happens. But because it doesn't happen in the successive breaths, that people regulate and the brain star- and you calm down, and you're like, "Oh, this isn't as bad as I think it is, and I'm able to control this."

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:20:22 So if I was trained, had I been trained at that point in breathing, and done a bit of practice, and been in the ocean [laughs] before, um, in theory, are you saying that I could have switched off that hyperactive stress response that was going on in my body? I could have actually switched it off, maintained control, maintained calm, and carried on swimming?

Brian MacKenzie 1:20:46 That is where choice enters the situation, and choice of breath. I choose to breathe and control my breathing right now. Now I need to choose and change my narrative, because I'm now exacerbating a situation that is counter int- to what I want to be going on. I'm freaking out. I, there's no need for me to freak out. I am not in imminent death. And if I am freaking out, then get the fuck out of there. Or, excuse me.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:21:13 Yeah

Brian MacKenzie 1:21:13 But get out of there.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:21:14 Yeah

Brian MacKenzie 1:21:14 Like, right? If it's truly a freak-out. Or if you want to participate in this and change how your brain works, plasticity, lay back on your back and control your breathing until you can calm it down-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:21:26 Yeah

Brian MacKenzie 1:21:26 ... if you're in the water. And you're in a wetsuit, you're gonna float.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:21:28 Yeah

Brian MacKenzie 1:21:28 Trust me. You're not gonna sink. [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:21:30 Yeah.

Brian MacKenzie 1:21:30 There's a reason why free divers need a weight belt to go down, right?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:21:34 Yeah

Brian MacKenzie 1:21:34 Like, so-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:21:35 Even, even that, you say, I, I've, I've sort of tried to, um, dissect what happened, and I think for me, there's so many reasons why I freaked out. One, I never wore a wetsuit before.

Brian MacKenzie 1:21:46 Oh, oh, so I, I-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:21:47 So I didn't even know I could-

Brian MacKenzie 1:21:49 You, you absolutely made, broke every rule-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:21:51 Yeah

Brian MacKenzie 1:21:51 ... of, like, going into a competition for the first time or doing something, right?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:21:55 Yeah. I'd never worn a wetsuit before.

Brian MacKenzie 1:21:56 [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:21:56 I didn't trust the guy behind, the guy next to me said, "Look, Rangan, just lie on your back and you'll float." I thought, there is no way I'm lying [laughs] on my back at the moment and I'm gonna sink. So I didn't know that. The water was cold, and if we have time we can maybe explore what that cold does to people. Um, and yeah, sure, I, I hadn't been in the ocean before.

Brian MacKenzie 1:22:16 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:22:16 So all these factors together, it's like almost like a perfect storm.

Brian MacKenzie 1:22:19 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:22:19 Like, I would probably have had to do a lot of training to [laughs] be able to swim-

Brian MacKenzie 1:22:22 But the fact that you unpack it like that, like you're able to do that, like, look, so what does this mean for Rangan? What does this mean? Like, oh, I tend to overpack, put thing, like jump onto things and do everything for the... Okay, maybe I should start dissecting that a little bit further back in my life, when that started, how that started, why that started, you know? And for Brian, it, you know, especially, like, you know, I think it really comes down to a lot of the relationships and things that we've done. And so I, you know, I look at, like my childhood, and it was like-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:22:51 Oh, yeah

Brian MacKenzie 1:22:51 ... I was a rebellious man. I got attention, I got love because I rebelled. Like, I got attention when I was rebellious. Hence, look at me. Like, when I've got my shirt off and I'm in short sleeves, I am ev- you know, I'm covered in tattoos. I grew up in an environment that was very rebellious. I looked up to people that were punk rock. You know, it was like this whole thing, and it garnered me attention. So I felt love that way, so that then transcended into aggression and what that meant. And oh, this is my default for survival. Like, so I s- I tend to overdo things, right? And be, ugh, I'm gonna do this. I'm responsible for everything, or ah, you know? Or, you know, like, it, it just-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:23:32 And, and we think that's our personality. That-

Brian MacKenzie 1:23:35 It's not who we are. [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:23:36 Exactly. And I, I sort of, Gabor Mate, I spoke to him a few months ago. Do you know Gabor's work? I mean-

Brian MacKenzie 1:23:40 Yeah. I, I do. Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:23:41 Yeah, I love Gabor's work.

Brian MacKenzie 1:23:42 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:23:42 I think he talks with such compassion.

Brian MacKenzie 1:23:43 What's it? Telling Ghosts? Or, uh-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:23:45 Uh, Hungry Ghosts

Brian MacKenzie 1:23:46 ... it, Hungry Ghosts. Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:23:47 Yeah

Brian MacKenzie 1:23:47 Yeah. Yeah. I read it

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:23:48 And one of the, one of the funnest conversations I've had on, on the show, for sure. And, you know, he talks about how we use language and how that determines a lot of the way we think we are and, you know, what we think is our personality. But we could, we could go down a big rabbit hole right here if we want to. I'm gonna pull us back to the breath because-

Brian MacKenzie 1:24:06 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:24:06 ... I'm keen that people listen to this who think, "Okay, look, I get it, guys. I get it. Breathing's important." Somebody listens to this who has not a clue how to start.

Brian MacKenzie 1:24:15 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:24:15 Right?

Brian MacKenzie 1:24:15 I got a simple solution for that. [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:24:17 Well, let's, let's, let's dive right in.

Brian MacKenzie 1:24:19 Well, s- we all have apps on our phones. We designed an actual app based off the work we've done, and what we saw was that not everybody responds to the same patterns in the same ways because our physiology and thinking and emotions aren't always in the same place, right? Like, you deal with things very differently than I deal with things. That would make sense, right?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:24:42 Yeah

Brian MacKenzie 1:24:42 Like, if we were training for the same event, we could follow the same training program, but we're probably not gonna get the same results because you've got asymmetries I don't. Your physiology's starting off in a pl- place mine isn't, right? Like, all of these things are variant, right? So we saw pretty early on that people responded very differently. So we do, uh, we, we learned how to put what patterns work with kind of specific ways of dealing with things emotionally, right? And so we based, uh, um, this algorithm off of how people emotionally handle stress and their CO2 tolerance test. And so it starts people off and it gives them the State app. Um, starts off by taking people through this test, and it gives you four exercises to do, and there's one for feeling alert, which is waking up in the morning. There's one for being present, which is maybe throughout the day. There's one for feeling calm, which is whenever you need to feel like you're calm. And then there's one for which most of us, most of us are dealing with is to help you fall asleep, to downshift you big time. So f- th- there's two on the end that are kinda really important about downshifting and something we need to take more, um, into account in our lives because that's the thing we're not doing, is it's not that like... Stress, stress isn't the problem. We need to lean into stress. We need to understand that. It, it's what we're doing between stressors. Like, you know, so we're gonna have had this conversation for, you know, 90 minutes or two hours, right? And it's like when I get out of here, I'm gonna get in the car and I'm gonna do some bre- I'll probably do a few b- breathing exercises as I do because I'll just come down a little bit. And then I can hop back on a phone call and do things again and, you know, regulate. I can process what we did, and then I can move on to the next thing. And that's the thing we're not doing, is we're not processing these things. We're not actually going through the process. We're just jumping from one exposure to the next.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:26:37 Yeah.

Brian MacKenzie 1:26:37 And so that's what the app is really designed to do, and it's like, "Hey, here's four exercises you can do that are actually customized to you." So your app is very different from my app and very different from Rob's app, and it changes and evolves with you based on how you respond to carbon dioxide. Because when you can actually get better at these patterns, you're increasing your tolerance to CO2, which only means you're creating more room and the ability to shift down or up in an instant.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:27:08 On the whole point of CO2 tolerance-

Brian MacKenzie 1:27:10 Yep

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:27:12 ... in that incident when I was in the water when I was panicking-

Brian MacKenzie 1:27:15 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:27:16 ... you said that actually my CO tolerance changed, or, or I was at that point intolerant to CO2, so I'm breathing fast to blow it off. Is that an acute thing that happens, or had I been training my breathing consistently and I had raised my tolerance to CO2 on a, um, on a consistent basis, would I not have felt that intolerant to it in that incident, in that particular moment? Does that make sense?

Brian MacKenzie 1:27:47 At that particular moment, most likely. Maybe a little bit further down the swim you may have because it may have required more work or more, more, uh, storytelling-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:27:59 To get out

Brian MacKenzie 1:27:59 ... negative thinking in order to exacerbate it, right? What we're doing is pushing that envelope. Like, like we're building that gap of choice, right? Like, the, like, you know, you got stimulus and response. You're building a bigger area for just going, [inhales] "I'm cool. I know if I continue to push this a little bit harder, I'm, I'm, I've got a problem." But here's the thing, is you were combining emotions with work, right? And it's not that we're not-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:28:22 Yeah

Brian MacKenzie 1:28:22 ... doing this when we're training or working out, but we're not doing it in that context where I'm exposing myself to an environment. But the thing is, is it should be an acute response. It should be. It should not be chronic, and this is where we start to see longterm, like chronic stuff, like being emotional and not dealing with the stuff that we should be dealing with, like at the heart of it when we... You know, like victimizing ourselves. This inevitably does not deal with things. Like, "I'm not at fault. I don't have any play in this." Well, if you're thinking about it, you've got plenty of play in it.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:28:57 Yeah.

Brian MacKenzie 1:28:57 Got, I, I hate to tell, I hate to break it to you. All right? So understanding that there is that thing there, your emotional, your, having emo- stress to emotion will h- will hold on to a lower C- so it'll affect your CO2 tolerance more than physically affecting. Remember how we did the test-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:29:20 Yeah

Brian MacKenzie 1:29:20 ... after we worked out and your CO2 tolerance test plummeted, then we did the breathing exercises and it should have gone up?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:29:25 Yeah.

Brian MacKenzie 1:29:26 And we saw a lot of people in that room where for the fourth CO2 tolerance of the day, granted the first two were done when we weren't even working.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:29:35 Yeah.

Brian MacKenzie 1:29:35 Right? We weren't even really doing any real work. The fourth one after you'd done two workouts-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:29:42 Was the best

Brian MacKenzie 1:29:43 ... was the best for a lot of people in that room, right? And it's, that's the power of what breath can do, is it can change that CO- and people felt calmer.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:29:53 Yeah.

Brian MacKenzie 1:29:53 Well, it, uh, the whole room looked like it was just docile after we did that.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:29:57 Yeah. It was, it was a, it was so amazing that, those sort of five, 10 minutes at the end where everyone had just done this down-regulating breathing pattern. You could just feel the energy. Every-

Brian MacKenzie 1:30:06 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:30:06 ... it was just chill.

Brian MacKenzie 1:30:08 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:30:08 It just felt calm and it, it was, it was amazing. And you-

Brian MacKenzie 1:30:12 Four minutes of breathing. That was it.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:30:14 Four minutes of breathing.

Brian MacKenzie 1:30:14 Four minutes of breathing.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:30:15 And-

Brian MacKenzie 1:30:16 Four

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:30:16 ... I just thought, "Wow, wouldn't it be amazing to feel this way at one point in the day at least every single day?" But with that, you absolutely can. You mentioned the breathing practices make that space in between stimulus and response bigger.

Brian MacKenzie 1:30:32 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:30:32 Is there anything in life that is more important, that is gonna have more impact on your wellbeing, on the wellbeing of people around you, than actually making that space big?

Brian MacKenzie 1:30:46 I, I don't know if there would be anything else.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:30:49 I, I don't think there could be-

Brian MacKenzie 1:30:50 There could-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:30:51 ... because-

Brian MacKenzie 1:30:51 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:30:51 ... that is what gets us into trouble in our life, whether we make poor choices-

Brian MacKenzie 1:30:55 It's this-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:30:55 ... whether we fall out with our-

Brian MacKenzie 1:30:57 Look-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:30:57 ... wife or our husband, or we shout at our kids

Brian MacKenzie 1:30:59 ... it, and, and even this is not, like, this is not new. This is old, old-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:31:03 Yeah

Brian MacKenzie 1:31:03 ... old, old thinking. I mean, look, Bruce Lee literally conceptualized and brought the idea of self-actualization. That is that. If you don't build that gap of actualization, y- you're just a reactive species-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:31:24 Yeah

Brian MacKenzie 1:31:24 ... in an environment that is chaotic

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:31:27 And you give your power to other people.

Brian MacKenzie 1:31:30 Y-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:31:30 You've lost your power

Brian MacKenzie 1:31:30 100%. Y- I, like I got, I, I know way too many people that are running around pretending to be happy.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:31:36 Yeah. [laughs]

Brian MacKenzie 1:31:36 Thinking happiness is the key to everything, and happiness isn't by, my- in my opinion, is not.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:31:43 Yeah.

Brian MacKenzie 1:31:43 It, it's contentment. You gotta understand, and this is, uh, my buddy Fergus Connolly and I talk about this all the time, and this is the big problem with what we're doing right now, is everybody's chasing happiness.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:31:54 Yeah.

Brian MacKenzie 1:31:54 Fuck happiness. Like, you're gonna have times where things are tough, but you should have the tools to understand that, that gap and that, hey, you know what? This too shall pass. Like, this, I have the tools in order to manage this stressful situation. Like, I'm going through something with my wife that like, I'm, you know, like I've gotta have the tools. Like, I'm in an argument and it got bad and bad and bad, and I'm just, this is, this is, you know, an, an, like just making this up. But it's like, hey, I've seen this peop- with, with people all over the place, and it's like, does this need to be this bad?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:32:31 Yeah.

Brian MacKenzie 1:32:31 No, it doesn't. It does not. And if you actually reflect on yourself and use breathing to actually control that response to what's going on, that psychometabolic reactivity becomes optimized, and you start to actually work through, hey, I can act- this isn't... Rebellious Brian is just an identity.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:32:57 Yeah.

Brian MacKenzie 1:32:58 Bingo. I, that is not me. That was just who I thought I was. I am actually much more than that, and I have the ability to choose how I am. I'm not anywhere near the rebellious person I was. Now, there's aspe- aspects of me that's pretty rebellious, you know, d- going and getting out of a cage with sharks and, you know.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:33:19 Yeah.

Brian MacKenzie 1:33:20 But, but those are experiences, you know? And, and these are things that I wanna be able to go and do, and ex- and, and that's, that's what living is. That's life. That is living.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:33:30 Yeah.

Brian MacKenzie 1:33:30 And if I can't take those experiences and implement them into what it is I'm doing right here with you right now, why am I doing them?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:33:39 Yeah. What's the point?

Brian MacKenzie 1:33:41 Or my wife and my kids, and this is the beauty of the life that you see right now.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:33:45 Yeah. 100%.

Brian MacKenzie 1:33:46 Right?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:33:47 And what you say about happiness and chasing happiness, I agree. It's, we've, we've gone down the wrong track.

Brian MacKenzie 1:33:52 [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:33:53 Um, you know, I've, I've, you know, I, I, I've just gifted you obviously the-

Brian MacKenzie 1:33:57 Yes

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:33:57 ... my, my book on stress. I hope you-

Brian MacKenzie 1:33:58 Thank you

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:33:59 ... hope you enjoy it. But what was interesting, when I was sitting down to write it, I remember thinking, "Okay, there's infinite stresses in the environment. I wanna talk about, I wanna structure this in a way that people can help... First of all, help them understand where stress lives in their life, give them that awareness-

Brian MacKenzie 1:34:15 Mm-hmm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:34:15 ... and then give them tools." And I thought, well, fundamentally, living a life devoid of meaning and purpose is the most stressful thing we can do. That is my view. And I think actually finding meaning and purpose, and there are many ways that we, which we can do this, and I, I do, I've got my own philosophy on that. But it is, once you have that, actually life just, the, the, the stress dial, the, [sighs] the harmful stress dial, 'cause stress is normal, right? Stress is, is, is there. We're designed to respo- a- a- and, and we're, we're designed to be able to manage and deal with stress, but the unhelpful stress dial just goes down in an instant when you find meaning and purpose, when you stop telling yourself these stories, when you free yourself from the prison in which you have been. Um, it's, it, it's deep. You know, we, we [laughs] it's super deep, but, but I think it's, I think that's what life's about, man.

Brian MacKenzie 1:35:11 Yeah, man. I'm, my entire, my entire thing, you know, uh, it was, it was... I had this talk with a good friend of mine the other day, and she was, we were talking about how 98% of the, the world goes left, and then 2% goes right, right? And I, I looked at her and I was like, "I go to the start every, like, I wanna go to the start and see it for the first time every time." I wanna... A- and, and that's what breath- that's what breathwork does. That's what self-actualization does. That means that I can go into any experience, and it could be the same, like, I could do the same workout, but I'm looking at it differently under a different light. I'm going into the same job and the same thing, and I get to look at this as a brand-new thing every single time. That is a choice. That is the ability to make the choice of I'm the lion or I'm the antelope, right? And I have that power. That is f- that is what power is, and that ability, and I'm not saying everybody needs to go and start their day over [laughs] like I do. I just look at myself as I want to go and understand something for the first time every time.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:36:20 Yeah.

Brian MacKenzie 1:36:21 That's learning. That is what it is. And, and that brings a beauty to life that I've never experienced in 45 years. So I'm gonna continue with that kinda thing-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:36:32 Yeah

Brian MacKenzie 1:36:33 ... you know, and continue to see things and learn from things because, you know, I, I, I've come under this idea that it's like we're either believing in something or we're learning. And, and I'm trying to dismantle the belief section [laughs] of what it is I've boxed myself into. You know, we get this idea about something and, like, you know, it's e- like hell. I mean, it's like climate change, and it's like, yeah, it's gnarly, but we, there's so many people with so many ideas about how this could be fixed, and yet none of them, uh, has any truth to it, [laughs] right? I'm not saying that we shouldn't continue to move forward. We should, but everybody gets hooked on this one thing or this one idea or this o- how we're gonna do things, or how the workforce needs to operate, or, you know, how the healthcare system needs to operate, or whatever. Like, one idea is gonna fix them all. And it's like, you know, Rob brought this [laughs] up yesterday, like one ring to rule them all is gonna be a problem. [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:37:30 Yeah.

Brian MacKenzie 1:37:30 I'm telling you.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:37:31 Yeah, for sure.

Brian MacKenzie 1:37:32 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:37:33 So Brian, for people who wanna get involved, they want to start taking control, they're inspired by- hopefully they're inspired by what they've heard and think, "Okay, you convinced me. Breathing, I, I need to start focusing on my breathing"

Brian MacKenzie 1:37:47 I hope you have more questions and I didn't convince you of anything [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:37:50 Yeah, exactly. Well, that, that would be the hope, wouldn't it, really?

Brian MacKenzie 1:37:53 That, that is literally the goal

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:37:55 Yeah. So where people actually voluntarily think, "Okay, cool. I really want to now start working on my breathing." If they download your app, which you spent a lot of time and effort into creating, does it walk them through it simply? Like, if someone has no idea on breathing physiology, um, will the app be able to help them? Will the app walk them through what they need to be doing?

Brian MacKenzie 1:38:17 Ye- yes. The app is there to help you through state change, right? And build CO2 tolerance. And this is ultimately what we're looking for, because we're in a- we're in specific states, like the higher stress states. Like, I'm, I'm, I'm u-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:38:29 Yeah

Brian MacKenzie 1:38:29 ... uber stimulated, right? Well, I need to ch- I need to change that. And so this is what that can help people do. This is that kinda entry-level to things. Get- do this for some time, then you can start to play around with it more and ask more questions after you've actually g- gotten some experience with it. Um, and you know, there, there's a quote in the, in, in the movie Sicario, um, that happens, and the, the operative gal asks this guy who she doesn't know who he is, which is Benicio Del Toro, and she's asking him all these questions about things, and he just looks at her and he says, "You're asking me how a watch works, and I'm telling you, just learn to tell the time right now." This is people, we get so hyper-focused on all this m- the menagerie of things, and this is why what we teach is a principles-based approach. Because principles are better, or not better, princ- principles are greater than methods, which are greater than tools. Methods are there for specific reasons to elici- elicit specific responses. Tools are there in order to help with the methodologies, and the idea of using that tool can be implemented in any way once you understand the principles. So if I understand the principles, I can do whatever it is I choose whenever I want to do it. It's when I get stuck on a method, thinking it's the idea or the only thing. The... And back to Bruce Lee, what was Jeet Kune Do, right? This was the art of the intercepting fist. The, there was no method to the method. It was, you know, dismantling, be like water, right? And this is why he was such, he was probably somebody who's ahead of the time right now.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:40:16 Yeah

Brian MacKenzie 1:40:16 Is the idea is, is never to put yourself inside the cage, right? But get good enough at the thing. So start here at the foundation. Get some breath practice in by learning which, learning how these specific rhythms work with you, or specific patterns work with you. Feel them. Be consistent enough with it. See what the change is, then move on to the next step. You know, maybe do it a little more. Maybe add one more. You don't need to do all four. Maybe start with one, then start with two, then go to three, then go to four. Then go to our website and start firing off questions left and right, you know? Um, it, it goes deep, and we've got a lot of research on the site as well-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:40:59 Yeah

Brian MacKenzie 1:40:59 ... and, and information under breathing resources. Um-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:41:01 And that's powerspeedendurance.com?

Brian MacKenzie 1:41:02 Yes, that's powerspeedendurance.com/artoftbreath, or going to the br- under learn, breathing resources-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:41:09 Yeah

Brian MacKenzie 1:41:09 ... or anything on there that has to do with breath.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:41:11 And we're, we're gonna, Brian, we're gonna link to all of the various resources, the app and everything in the show notes page-

Brian MacKenzie 1:41:15 Yeah, it-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:41:15 ... uh, to this episode of the podcast-

Brian MacKenzie 1:41:17 Man

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:41:17 ... for sure. One of the things I loved about the, the course yesterday, uh, the Art of Breath course, is you, you were empowering people. You were, you and your team, and Rob, and Danny were, were teaching people how to figure it out themselves. There was clearly a lot of people who wanted the protocols, you know-

Brian MacKenzie 1:41:34 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:41:34 ... what do I need to do for this-

Brian MacKenzie 1:41:35 Oh, yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:41:35 ... particular situation? And again, patients come to me wanting that, but what I wanna do is empower them, teach them so that they become the architects of their own health. And what you guys are doing is, I'm not saying you weren't giving protocols, you were giving plenty of protocols to people who, who, you know, to get them started, but there was a theme that is figure it out, practice, get to know your own body, get to know how you respond. Then you're free. Then you're no longer looking to, what would Brian MacKenzie say I should do here? What does Rob say I should do here? Of course, that may be great to get someone started, but ultimately you wanna know your breath yourself, where you can go, in this situation, the best breath practice for me is this one.

Brian MacKenzie 1:42:19 Yeah. And h- here's, I mean, just back to how important this work is for us, is this is a part of our lives personally. We know what codependency is. We know what enablement is. We've done that work. We're not going to give that to the public. We're not gonna create a, a victim culture. We're going to create a culture that actually empowers people. That is the goal. So we need to actually be so invested in it that this is a part of our personal lives, and it's being implemented in that fashion so that we understand it to the core of what is going on. So that when we actually present information and we take pride enough in that information that we're actually studying people who actually stand up for a living and try to make people laugh or tr- present in front of people, like that is part, that is as much a part of the work as everything else so that we actually are taking the psychological think- the thinking behind this stuff and not falling suit into, I've got this really cool thing that if you swipe your credit card right now, we'll give you access to 30 days of the most advanced training ideas around breathwork, breathwork, breathwork, right? And then when you get to that phase, we'll d- no. We're not, we, that is not what we're here to do

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:43:44 I've, I, I can't tell you how much I love that. It's... There's something for me, having you here, Brian, is, it's been fantastic because w- the videos I watched of you, the, the, the, the posts you've done on Instagram, there's something that I deeply, deeply connected with. I felt this is a guy who, yeah, has done the work, has someone who is trying to empower. He's not trying to lecture and actually shove it down people's throats. It's, it's the manner in which you do it that I think I've really appreciated the most. And, and hearing you say that you are conscious of how you guys are teaching, the way you're putting this into the world, you don't wanna add to the victim culture that is out there. I think that is one of the, one of the most beautiful things I've heard. It's, uh, it's, it's fantastic to hear you put it like that. Um...

Brian MacKenzie 1:44:34 Well, thank you. I, I, it, it, l- like, look, y- I, I appreciate... I real- I, I... It makes me ha- it really makes me happy that that's how it's coming across but, you know, make no mistake, this is all work. I mean, two, uh, two days ago, I reacted in a way to something Rob even said that, like, was... There it was, boom. And I was like, "No. Argh." And I was like, "Oh, fuck." Like, "Nope, I'm gonna listen to him right now. He's more intelligent on this than I am." And it, it's, it's right there. It's, it's there if you let it, but it's also not there if you don't let it, you know? And I don't want, I don't wanna exist in a world where that is, like, how everybody's running around, you know? I, I just don't. That's not the world I wanna exist in. Sorry. I'm not... I, I don't. And I'll, I'll move as far out into nature as I need to if that's what I need to do. Right?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:45:26 But ultimately, you, you found what it means to be authentic for you.

Brian MacKenzie 1:45:30 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:45:30 You found your value system-

Brian MacKenzie 1:45:32 Yeah, yeah, yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:45:32 ... and you are operating under the values that you have defined. And-

Brian MacKenzie 1:45:36 Make no mistake. And I found it through breathwork.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:45:38 Yeah.

Brian MacKenzie 1:45:39 I, I, I, I found it through breathwork. And, and based on my understanding of history, which let's be very clear, history is one of the most important things we have. It is very important.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:45:49 Yeah.

Brian MacKenzie 1:45:49 And it's very important to understand it, and that this has had profound effects, this profound of an effect, if this is coming across profound, for more than 5,000 years. We just weren't listening in the capacity that I think people are finally starting or we're creating a language that people can really start to listen. And hopefully, hopefully, those that are in the professional communities, such as yourself, are, and you are, but you talk about psychiatry, right? Like, this is such a closed off society to a large degree to things that are so impactful like this. And the m- like, this is, we've got an an- anxiety epidemic. Mm. Do we? Maybe this is just the absolute natural response to something that we're not actually learning to deal with from a physiological level.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:46:44 Yeah.

Brian MacKenzie 1:46:44 And oh, [laughs] like, why can't that be a conversation? Why can't we start looking at that? And, like, why... Like, R- Rob brought up a beautiful point yesterday about, uh, this was a conversation last night about, hey, we're starting to look at therapy and stuff, like, almost like periodized strength and conditioning programs. This is what we've been doing for 20 years. Yeah, small doses. Let's dose. Let's build upon the physiology that's been dealing with this psychometabolic reactivity. Boom. Doesn't mean you need to go back squat. It [laughs] means like, hey, let's, whatever you wanna do and choose to do, we can implement breath control, something that's been implemented in yoga. We breathe into a position, we breathe out of a position. We follow the breath, right?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:47:28 As you said at the start-

Brian MacKenzie 1:47:29 [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:47:29 ... how you breathe is how you move.

Brian MacKenzie 1:47:31 Ba-doom. That's it.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:47:32 Yeah. Well, Brian, I think that's a pretty good place to wrap this thing up. Um, I have really, really enjoyed this conversation. It got pretty deep there, but-

Brian MacKenzie 1:47:41 Hey

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:47:41 ... hey, that's why I like these long conversations because it gets you-

Brian MacKenzie 1:47:43 It's what I do. [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:47:44 Hey, no, it's, it's good, man. It's good. It's a lot of fun. Um, two final quick questions.

Brian MacKenzie 1:47:49 Yep.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:47:49 First one is what does Brian MacKenzie do in terms of breathwork on any given day? How much time do you spend on this?

Brian MacKenzie 1:47:57 Anywhere from a minute or two, like in the morning, to it's an, you know, what I might consider my entire day. Now, I don't just sit in lotus and breathe. Granted, that may start my day a lot of the days. Um, yeah, I mean, like this morning I was doing alternating os- nostril where it, I just literally jumped into it as Rob [laughs] and I were sitting in, in the front room watching grappling. Um, you know, we were watching the ADCC, and I literally just started to [inhales] [exhales] and I was like, "Oh, yeah, I need to start, I need to get my breath practice going this morning", and I just started moving some air and just started feeling where I was at and, like, how much I might be able to handle today. And-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:48:41 But it's something you will do on pretty much every day?

Brian MacKenzie 1:48:43 Oh, uh, it's every day.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:48:44 Every day.

Brian MacKenzie 1:48:44 Yeah. E- every day in some capacity I'm doing that. Now, I may not just do that in a seated way.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:48:49 No.

Brian MacKenzie 1:48:50 But I will do something like sun salutations, you know, um, like a, a small movement practice in the morning. Then I'll move into an actual training, whether I'm getting on a bike or whether I'm going into the gym or whether I'm going to jujitsu. And even at jujitsu I am breath control.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:49:06 Yeah.

Brian MacKenzie 1:49:06 I'm letting my breath dictate what it is I'm doing. I'm not in a place quite yet with my jujitsu where I allow myself to step out of that, right? There will be a point, I'm just still in big learning phase right now.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:49:18 But that's empowering. Even one or two minutes in the morning for people to start the day, I think-

Brian MacKenzie 1:49:21 That... Oh, that, the-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:49:22 Pe- people listening to this, that is achievable. If someone is thinking, "Uh, when am I gonna find time?" Just start there, right?

Brian MacKenzie 1:49:28 Yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:49:29 Yeah.

Brian MacKenzie 1:49:29 It, it, it, it's discipline un- unfortunately. It's discipline and consistency in the beginning, and then it should be freedom.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:49:36 Yeah.

Brian MacKenzie 1:49:36 Like, "Oh, I, no, I wanna do this," right? Then just don't, you know, like, let's not do this... Like, after some time, like, give it a few months doing something. Understand that thing, right? Then venture out into something new. And do that and learn from that and then come around, you know? There's so many different methods and things out there on breathing and ideas, and that's, uh, essentially what the app, what the State app does, right? And so that app actually has all different breathing patterns in it so that people actually feel the difference between these things.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:50:13 Final question, Brian.

Brian MacKenzie 1:50:14 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:50:14 This podcast is called Feel Better Live More.

Brian MacKenzie 1:50:16 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:50:16 It's fairly obvious why. I genuinely have seen time and time again when people feel better in themselves, they get more out of their life.

Brian MacKenzie 1:50:24 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:50:25 And what I'd love you to leave my listeners with are some of your top actionable tips, things that people can hear from you that they can actually apply into their own life immediately to start improving the way that they feel. I'm sure some of them we would have already covered, but just as a kind of inspirational piece right at the end, either breath-related or non-breath related or a bit of both, what are some of your top tips for people to live their best lives?

Brian MacKenzie 1:50:56 Try, um... I would say if you can get to the point where you take nothing personally, work towards that. Work towards that, 'cause there is nothing personal and- that's going on. This is all just an exacerbation of other people's internal workings, you know? We judge, you know, we, we judge ourselves by what we th- what's going on internally, you know? But we judge everybody else by their actions and intentions. And so thinking that it's a personal thing against y- you just don't know the framework of everything. And I... So that's something I ha- I literally have to work on every day.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:51:33 Yeah.

Brian MacKenzie 1:51:33 Like, [laughs] I'm like, "This isn't personal. This isn't personal." Right? So I think that's huge, right? Um, I think having a breath practice is probably the most fundamental thing you can do for yourself. I, I, I don't think there's anything more fundamental. I think nutrition follows that to some degree. I s- uh, don't get hung up in nutrition. I, I'm, I'm not saying that's the third. I'm just saying, like, people are like, "Well, what you eat should be very import-" No, oxygen's more important. [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:51:59 Yes.

Brian MacKenzie 1:51:59 It literally is. It literally is. You can go some time without eating, okay? Like, you can go 30 days or roughly without eating. How long can you go without breathing? Okay? Pay attention to that thing. Then I think make some choices about things in a movement practice that stimulate you in a positive way. I don't care if that's hiking, I don't care if that's jujitsu, [laughs] I don't care if that's CrossFit, I don't care if that's running. Now, don't let that own you. Just let that be something that is fun to do and a part of your life and teaches you something about the rest of your life. What is that experience? So the last thing I think would just be, be the experience. Like, just be the experiences you're having. Like, if you're experiencing something profound, apply that to the most minute thing in your life. Maybe that's coming home from work and having screaming kids and a wife who's just... or a, or a father or, you know, a, a, or a husband that's off his rocker from dealing with kids and it's a, it's a chaotic environment. And take your experience of being in chaotic environments and learning how to manage those things and make a better decision. Use that to make a better decision.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:53:21 Brilliant. Brian, I love them.

Brian MacKenzie 1:53:23 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:53:23 Thank you for making time. Uh, I've got so much more that we could be talking about.

Brian MacKenzie 1:53:28 [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:53:28 So if you're ever so maybe next time when we're in LA we could continue-

Brian MacKenzie 1:53:31 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:53:31 ... this conversation.

Brian MacKenzie 1:53:32 For sure, or when I'm in London.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:53:33 Keep up the great work.

Brian MacKenzie 1:53:34 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:53:34 Thanks, Brian.

Brian MacKenzie 1:53:34 Thank you. [outro music]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:53:42 Press subscribe to get more inspiration and ideas on how to feel better so you can get more out of life. And if you have a moment, why not check out this conversation that I've picked out as a perfect follow-up? Remember, lifestyle change is always worth it, because when you feel better, you live more.