Buddhist Monk Explains Why You Feel Lost & Empty Inside

1. 0:00 – 1:12

   Compassion without becoming a doormat

   1. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee0:00

      The phrase is, "If I was that other person, I'd be doing exactly the same as them." It was really interesting. I wrote about it in my last book. I, I've gone on stage and spoken about how transformative this phrase is for me because it, it makes you lead with compassion. If you think, "Hey, listen, if I was that person with their upbringing, their childhood, the bullying they had, um, the toxic first boss they had, I'd also view the world in the same way as they do. I'd be acting in exactly the same way as they are." And one of the common things that will come up for people is go, "Yeah, w- well, does that mean I just need to let people walk over me?" And I will say very similar to what you just said, which is, "No." But if you, if you have compassion as the energy behind it, you're not getting emotionally triggered, you're not going into stress states, you're more open to possibility. You're better able to change that situation because of your state. So it's not as if, if someone's behaving badly to you, that you're necessarily gonna tolerate it or accept it, or put up with it. But if you can actually change your energy in a much calmer and more rational way, you can actually deal with the situation.

   2. GTGelong Thubten1:08

      Mm.

   3. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:10

      Is that similar to what you're talking about?

2. 1:12 – 2:18

   Forgiveness, boundaries, and transforming the inner reaction

   1. GTGelong Thubten1:12

      Definitely. You, you, you are, um, not allowing people to abuse you. You are not allowing people to walk all over you, and of course, there are some situations where you, y- you should speak up, or some situations where you have to get away from that person or the situation because it's toxic and dangerous. But what is going on inside yourself in terms of blame, upset, anger, can that be transformed through forgiveness, through compassion? Because then eventually you can have a, a different relationship with that person or the situation-

   2. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:49

      Mm

   3. GTGelong Thubten1:49

      ... or your feelings about that situation by, yeah, sometimes putting yourself in the other person's shoes, and I think meditation helps you do that-

   4. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:57

      Mm

   5. GTGelong Thubten1:57

      ... because it helps you to see the human condition, how it is. E- everybody has minds that are, um, somehow, um, influenced by habits and negativity that we don't seem to know what to do with, and so when we see that about ourselves and others, it creates more of a compassionate acceptance.

3. 2:18 – 3:26

   From New York burnout to monastic life: was it an ‘extreme’ move?

   1. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee2:18

      Mm. Going from burnout in New York to joining a monastery in Scotland and then still being a monk 30 years later seems to be quite an extreme way to deal with burnout. So would you say, looking back on your life, you have had a tendency to extremes, like being the party animal in New York and then a few months later being a monk in a, in remote Scotland? And if so, could we say that these extremes are potentially problematic in how we interact with life?

   2. GTGelong Thubten2:56

      That's a very good question, and many of my friends said to me, "Well, here we go again. He's totally extreme. He's now joined a monastery." Some of them thought I'd joined a cult, and should they come and rescue me? And then they researched it and found out it's not a cult. But yeah, I would say that there was this going from one extreme to the other. I, I'm a party animal, then I'm a monk, and y- yes, that, that is a very extreme way to deal with burnout. But what changed for me was once the burnout had been addressed in some

4. 3:26 – 4:49

   Staying a monk for different reasons: from desperation to deep resonance

   1. GTGelong Thubten3:26

      way and I started to feel healthier and more calm, there then was the question of should I now finish my year and then go back to New York and carry on with the life that I was living? Um, but then I decided to try another year. I thought, "I'll just, I'll just, I'll, I'll take vows for a second year." And during my second year as a monk, I went into a solitary meditation retreat for several months, think it was nine months, and it was during that retreat that I started to really think about what Buddhism meant to me and what being a monk meant to me. And the s- the philosophy of Buddhism was, especially the compassion part, the philosophy of compassion, was starting to really get under my skin in, in a very good way, and then the decision to stay a monk came from a very different place. The decision to become a monk came from a desperate, broken place. The decision to then carry on and eventually take life vows came from a place of feeling this, this philosophy and this way of living really resonates for me at a very deep level, at a cellular level, and if I stay and do this long term, I really got a feeling that this would help me and also give me the chance to help others.

   2. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee4:41

      Mm.

   3. GTGelong Thubten4:41

      So I think my motivation for what I was doing started to come from a deeper place, and then it didn't feel extreme at all.

   4. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee4:48

      Yeah.

5. 4:49 – 6:29

   What people misunderstand about monastic life: restriction vs freedom

   1. GTGelong Thubten4:49

      And, and being a monk doesn't feel remotely extreme. And pe- people when they meet me and they say, "Oh, you're a monk," they often want to know, "What are you not allowed to do?" [laughs] Be- because their, their, their, their fascination is here's somebody who's chosen a life of celibacy, for example, um, and also I don't drink or smoke or anything-

   2. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee5:09

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   3. GTGelong Thubten5:53

      And so maybe that's all they see at first. "Oh, he's not allowed to do certain things." What maybe they don't understand and then they discover when they, when they talk to me more is-That it's a life that I find incredibly relaxing and freeing and, uh, healthy for myself, but also it's given me a way to communicate with others. I've always been a communicator. I've always wanted to share some kind of message, and here's a message I can share now, so it doesn't feel remotely extreme.

   4. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee6:20

      Yeah. It's so interesting that the energy that got you to become a monk in the first place is different from the energy that got you to continue.

   5. GTGelong Thubten6:28

      Definitely.

6. 6:29 – 7:47

   Behavior vs the energy behind it: a lens on addiction and change

   1. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee6:29

      And I, I think a lot about human behavior, initially through the lens of my patients. You know, why is it that people struggle to make change? Is a behavior, let's say, I don't know, alcohol for example, always bad? Is scrolling on social media always bad? Like, where I've got to in my view on human behavior is that it's not necessarily the behavior where we can determine if it's problematic or not, it's the energy underlying the behavior. And, and even saying problematic is possibly not the best word to describe it, but I think the energy behind it, for example, like alcohol. If, if the energy behind you having a half glass of red wine is to connect you with your friends that you haven't seen for a long time and i- in that setting, I think that's a very different situation than if you're using half a bottle of wine every night to numb the loneliness and frustration with your life. I actually think that the effects on you is gonna be very, very different. And so it's really interesting that maybe you needed that kind of running away energy to get you into the monastery. But that wasn't gonna keep you there. You had to change that.

7. 7:47 – 9:37

   Giving up intoxicants to reclaim inner autonomy (including coffee)

   1. GTGelong Thubten7:47

      And also my, my relationship with intoxicants, uh, I started to look at it at a more subtle level, which is through giving up all intoxicants, um, I s- I started to work with the idea that if you are using alcohol, for example, just to help you relax, there's something in you loses the ability to do it for yourself. It's too easy to, to, to give the power of relaxation away to an external substance.

   2. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee8:19

      Mm.

   3. GTGelong Thubten8:19

      And when you give all of that up, you start to dis- discover more power in yourself. You just-

   4. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee8:24

      Mm

   5. GTGelong Thubten8:24

      ... start to discover places you can go to internally f- and from there you can-

   6. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee8:29

      Mm-hmm

   7. GTGelong Thubten8:29

      ... you can feel relaxed and happy. So it gives you more autonomy and more, more strength.

   8. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee8:34

      What other intoxicants did you have to give up?

   9. GTGelong Thubten8:39

      Many.

   10. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee8:40

       [laughs] What, caffeine? [laughs]

   11. GTGelong Thubten8:42

       Oh, no, I, I, I, I do enjoy coffee. [laughs]

   12. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee8:46

       'Cause that's an intoxicant, isn't it? That's a... In some ways... Well, it is a... Technically, it's a psychoactive stimulant.

   13. GTGelong Thubten8:52

       And I'm aware of this because when I went into a long retreat, I was drinking coffee every morning, and I started to... Because when you're in retreat, you, you become much more aware of your, your, your physical and mental state.

   14. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee9:05

       Mm.

   15. GTGelong Thubten9:05

       And I started to see how a cup of coffee made my meditation better. I thought, "Okay, this is a, it, it... Caffeine is, is a stimulant, but also it's, it, it concentrates the mind, and now my meditation is better because I've had a cup of coffee," and I didn't want that, so I gave up coffee-

   16. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee9:25

       Mm

   17. GTGelong Thubten9:25

       ... during the retreat because I thought, "I wanna do this for myself. I don't want anything like a crutch to, to do it for me because I, I want to find that concentration and stability without needing anything."

8. 9:37 – 13:06

   Low-grade dependence on tech: when tools become psychological needs

   1. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee9:37

      And, and that's the kind of... For me, that's one of the real points of this work a- and your teachings. You know, I started off this conversation asking you about these low-grade addictions that many of us are struggling with, and it, it's about, it's about outsourcing our own inner wellbeing and our ability to be happy and calm to these externalities that's the problem because then we're dependent on them if they are not present, right? If they, if they go... Look, I, I had a patient once, honestly, who would get stressed out... One of the most important pillars for our health is, of course, nutrition. But I think because of our busy, stressed out lives, so many people are struggling despite their best intentions. So many patients over the years have told me that they know what they should be doing, [laughs] but they're struggling to actually do it, and that's why I'm a fan of AG1. AG1 is a daily health drink that contains over 70 vitamins, minerals, and other ingredients that are designed to make nutrition really easy. It's been in my own life for over six years now. It's simple, it's tasty, it's convenient, and it forms a part of my morning routine. People will routinely tell me that taking AG1 regularly has improved their focus, their cognition, their energy. Some people even tell me that they drink less coffee when they're taking AG1. And there's research out there showing us that taking AG1 regularly can improve specific markers of your gut health, which is really good for your immune health. So if you're looking to upgrade your own nutrition in a simple, tasty, and convenient way, try AG1. To get a free bottle of vitamin D and five free travel packs, go to drinkag1.com/livemore. She, she told me this, um, this story once about, you know, she, she got into walking. She'd always listen to music or a podcast, and then one day her, I think her Bluetooth headphones weren't working, and it stressed her out because she could no longer enjoy her walk listening to music or podcasts or whatever it might be. And I understand that because if you're used to that, if that's your norm and you're dependent on that external input into your ears to enjoy that walk-I can see why someone would become anxious and worried, but if you stand back and go, "Wow, this is quite incredible that 100 years ago, 50 years ago, this technology didn't even exist," where you can actually listen with earbuds to anything, even, you know, pre-Sony Walkman, right? Whereas now by having that, we're now... Many of us are dependent on it to feel good. We- we're overly reliant on these things. So I feel that one of the reasons why too much of these low-grade addictions, alcohol, social media, pornography, online shopping, whatever it might be, is problematic, is because we give up our own personal strength, our power, our sovereignty. And actually, as you have discovered, yes, caffeine was enhancing your meditation on that retreat, but it's like, yeah, but I need that. What if the coffee delivery doesn't come? What if I'm out, right? Then does that mean you can no longer access that? Well, no, because you gave it up, and I guess you found a way to access that same level without the caffeine.

9. 13:06 – 15:32

   Advertising and the ‘you are not enough’ message

   1. GTGelong Thubten13:06

      I like what you say about outsourcing. It... We, we do seem to outsource our wellbeing, and we lose our own power. We give the power away to, to the external things. And I think there's another level that goes on too, which is that, um, the way we are influenced by, um, advertising, uh, by the messaging we receive through our phones, through, through the media, et cetera, telling us to, to, to have certain products in our life, telling us, "You need this, you need that." There's a s- there's an undercurrent there of a message to the consumer that, "You, you are not enough unle- until you have this product."

   2. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee13:49

      Mm.

   3. GTGelong Thubten13:50

      "Your, your life is incomplete unless you buy my product." I mean, that's a very crude way of advertising things, and obviously it can be dressed up to make it seem more subtle, but that's the driving force-

   4. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee14:01

      [laughs] That's what's going on

   5. GTGelong Thubten14:02

      ... is, "You are incomplete without my product. You need my product." So this has become more invasive, of course, because it's in our phones now, and it, it's just everywhere. So we're going through life feeling there is something missing all the time. So the more we want external things, the more we rely on them for our happiness, the more we're also telling ourselves, "I lack something. I lack wellbeing. I lack happiness. I lack a sense of completeness. I am incomplete." And this becomes very pernicious, this underlying message of, "You are not enough." And so I found that when I went into those retreats, that deep sense of inadequacy and incompleteness really started to, to erupt into quite strong internal voices of self-disgust, self-loathing. In my, in my first retreats, I would just sit there listening to this voice in my head saying, "You are terrible. You're no good."

   6. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee15:05

      Mm.

   7. GTGelong Thubten15:05

      "You're rubbish." And I can see how that's part of my psychology but also fed from, by the environment around us.

   8. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee15:13

      Yeah. A lot of this, I think, is driven by society, and you could really make the case, I think, that a capitalist society requires us all to have a sense of incompleteness for it to survive and it to thrive.

   9. GTGelong Thubten15:30

      That's what keeps the wheel turning.

   10. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee15:32

       Yeah.

   11. GTGelong Thubten15:32

       Yeah.

10. 15:32 – 18:07

    Social media breaks, content diets, and the downstream effects on thoughts

    1. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee15:32

       Because without that, you know, we wouldn't be buying as many products, consuming as many things, right? And really [laughs] I guess, you know, if you wanna talk about the environment or the climate, like, really the way to solve it or the way to address living in a more sustainable way is first of all to address ourselves. You know, why do we have a desire in the first place for so much? You know, one of the, one of the most amazing things I discover every summer when I, I go off social media for six weeks or so, and I stop this podcast for six weeks, and again, I always say may not work for everyone, certainly works for me. I, I've... It, it certainly works in the context of my life and what it is today. One of the powerful things I realize, Thubten, is just how much we're constantly influenced by the world around us. When you stop, if you can have a few weeks and you're not going online, and I know that may seem an outrageous thought these days, and I appreciate some people won't be able to do that for work or whatever it might be, it is incredible how much you start to tune into yourself again. You went on retreat, right? I've not done that. I was with my wife and my children, but I still found a, a heightened sense of calm and contentedness, thinking I've, I, I've literally got everything in my life that I want. I, I don't want anything. There's nothing more I need. And when you truly realize that, or certainly speaking from my experience, when I really realized that a few years ago, I realized that it's all there. I have enough. I don't need more. And it's very easy, though, to fall back into those tendencies once you start exposing yourself again. And so I'm very, very intentional with what I consume, how often I consume it. You know, my wife for many years will not watch negative documentaries or things that she perceives as negative. I think I said this on a podcast recently that a few years ago, I loved the Netflix show House of Cards. I thought it was amazing. She said, "I'm not watching it. It's dark energy." And you know what? She's right because if you infiltrate your mind with that stuff, I feel that a lot of our, our thoughts and ideas are downstream of the content we're consuming.

11. 18:07 – 19:26

    Technology as ‘mental nutrition’: balance instead of endless sugar

    1. GTGelong Thubten18:07

       And you say consume, and that's a very important word, isn't it? So-I'm not here to bash technology. I mean, it, it has many uses. We're, we're using it right now. But there needs to be some sort of discipline there. It's a little bit like food. You can't just constantly eat sugar all day. It'll make you ill. But sometimes I feel we use our phones a bit like somebody constantly eating sugar.

    2. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee18:33

       Mm-hmm.

    3. GTGelong Thubten18:34

       We don't, we don't seem to feel there needs to be any control. It's just endless. So wouldn't it be better to use technology in the same way as we use food, as nutrition, but in the right way, in a balanced way, in a way that will be healthy-

    4. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee18:49

       Yeah

    5. GTGelong Thubten18:49

       ... for us? I think the connection needs to be made between the two things.

    6. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee18:54

       Yeah, and again, I'm not against people enjoying their favorite documentaries on Netflix or wherever they might wanna do that.

    7. GTGelong Thubten19:00

       Mm.

    8. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee19:00

       That's not the point of what I'm trying to say, or I don't think what you're trying to say-

    9. GTGelong Thubten19:05

       No

    10. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee19:05

        ... is, is to be a bit more intentional about these things and, you know, for my wife, for example, she was just like, "I don't want that in my life anymore."

    11. GTGelong Thubten19:11

        Mm.

    12. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee19:11

        "I don't want that." Great. Someone else may be able to consume that now and again in the evening and go, "Yeah, it's fine. I get it. It's fictional. It's just a bit of switch off, like a bit of sugar."

    13. GTGelong Thubten19:22

        Sure.

    14. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee19:23

        You know, a- and I get that and-

    15. GTGelong Thubten19:24

        With balance. With balance.

    16. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee19:25

        With, with balance.

12. 19:26 – 20:59

    Consumption, sustainability, and ‘recycling’ inner happiness

    1. GTGelong Thubten19:26

       And, and, and again, this word consume, so you mentioned the environment earlier, and I think that this is, this is the problem, is that we are constantly addicted to consuming. We need to consume things all the time because maybe we don't really know how to find happiness inside ourselves, so we take it from outside. And our, our environment, the planet, it's not inexhaustible. Our desire seems to be inexhaustible, and the, the things we want are limited, uh, in their, in their nature. They are impermanent, and they, they have limits. So the planet can't support our l- limitless desire. So, so I think that the, the sustainability conversation, uh, needs to have a, a sense of what is sustainable happiness. Can we recycle our own internal happiness rather than just needing-

    2. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee20:21

       Yeah

    3. GTGelong Thubten20:22

       ... more and more from outside?

    4. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee20:23

       Because otherwise, the trap we'll fall into is we'll look at what we're missing out on. Oh, people are saying now because of the climate, "I can't do this. I can't buy that," right? A bit like people ask you when you first become a monk, "Oh, what can't you do?"

    5. GTGelong Thubten20:43

       Mm-hmm.

    6. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee20:43

       You know, "What have you had to give up?"

    7. GTGelong Thubten20:44

       Mm-hmm.

    8. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee20:44

       Right? So we're not looking at what you're gaining-

    9. GTGelong Thubten20:46

       Mm

    10. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee20:47

        ... we're looking at what you can no longer do.

    11. GTGelong Thubten20:50

        Mm.

    12. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee20:50

        And you can look at the environment a bit like that as well, I think.

    13. GTGelong Thubten20:54

        Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

    14. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee20:54

        But even that whole concept, that whole idea that people will look at you and go, "Oh, you can't do this anymore"-

    15. GTGelong Thubten20:58

        Mm

13. 20:59 – 22:15

    Why inner happiness is rebellious—and why monks can trigger people

    1. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee20:59

       ... it's quite interesting because if you take a 30,000-foot view and go, "Let's look at society today," the rates of mental health dysfunction are outrageously high now, and they're getting higher. Yet we're okay with calling that normal. Th- this is normal. You know, we can do anything we want. Whenever we want, we can consume what we want with whoever we want, right?

    2. GTGelong Thubten21:23

       Mm.

    3. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee21:23

       That's normal. So you going to a monastery and becoming a monk's like, "Oh, man, what? You can't do this. You can't have alcohol."

    4. GTGelong Thubten21:30

       Mm.

    5. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee21:30

       You know? You have to be celibate.

    6. GTGelong Thubten21:32

       It's sort of offensive to people.

    7. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee21:33

       Yeah.

    8. GTGelong Thubten21:33

       Like, "Oh, you've given up all these things. How dare you?" [laughs]

    9. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee21:37

       You've given up all these things that are making so many of us unhappy.

    10. GTGelong Thubten21:40

        And how dare, how dare you? And, and i- it's, it's, it's challenging to, to think that you could find happiness from inside your mind and not need so much externally because that really is quite rebellious, isn't it? It's incredibly rebellious to say, "Well, I, I'm gonna find it within myself rather than from a product or a person-

    11. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee21:59

        Mm

    12. GTGelong Thubten21:59

        ... or a place."

    13. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee22:00

        Well, it's a revolutionary act in the current world, I would say, in the current capitalist world in which we live. But maybe it wasn't 1,000, 2,000 years ago. I don't know, you know? I wasn't around then, so [laughs] I can't speak to that.

14. 22:15 – 24:20

    Meditation is for busy lives: the biggest misconception

    1. GTGelong Thubten22:15

       Sure, and also I'm, I'm not telling people, "Oh, everyone should be a monk." It... For me, being a monk, living in a monastery is a, is a, ha- That, that's an important step I took for myself. It suits me, but the beauty of these meditation techniques is that anybody can practice them in any situation. It's not so much about whether you're a monk or not a monk or in retreat or not in retreat. It's about what you do with your mind moment to moment, and I r- I, I really like to share with people the encouragement that they can meditate even with very busy lives.

    2. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee22:51

       What are the main obstacles for people when they think about meditation?

    3. GTGelong Thubten22:55

       The biggest obstacle is that many people have an assumption about meditation that's absolutely not true, which is they, they seem to feel you're supposed to clear your mind. I hear this phrase a lot, "clear your mind," and it's quite a damaging phrase. Damaging because when the person sits down to meditate and they try to clear their mind, they can't. The more you try to-

    4. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee23:21

       Mm

    5. GTGelong Thubten23:21

       ... shut the mind down, the louder it shouts. So then you feel really frustrated. Many people give up meditation because they sit there trying to silence their thoughts, and the thoughts just get louder. So there's sort of, um, a feeling of, um, being at war with yourself. So, so I find that, um, the, the struggle comes from, um, a misconception about what meditation is.

    6. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee23:46

       Mm.

    7. GTGelong Thubten23:47

       So it's not about clearing the mind, but it's about changing the dynamic, changing the relationship between yourself and your thoughts, which doesn't mean getting rid of them at all. It means changing how you relate to them.

    8. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee23:58

       Yeah. If you enjoyed that short clip, I think you are really going to enjoy the full conversation, which you can check out here. [outro music]

Episode duration: 24:20