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Dr Rangan ChatterjeeDr Rangan Chatterjee

DO THIS EVERYDAY To Completely Transform YOUR HEALTH! | Helen Hall & Rangan Chatterjee

I HAVE BEEN WEARING VIVOBAREFOOT SHOES FOR OVER 10 YEARS. My guest is my dear friend, Helen Hall.

Helen HallguestDr. Rangan Chatterjeehost
Nov 10, 20211h 54mWatch on YouTube

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Transcript

  1. 0:00 – 2:27

    Why humans are “born to run” and why many adults stop

    1. HH

      The beginning of change is awareness. As soon as you become more aware of how you do move, how stacked your body is, how effortlessly it moves, breathing improves, digestion improves. With better movement on the outside, you're getting better movement on the inside, so this is health. This is how we stay alive-

    2. RC

      Yeah

    3. HH

      ... longer, and feel better, and live more, right? [upbeat music]

    4. RC

      I thought the best place to start would be to talk about running.

    5. HH

      Mm-hmm.

    6. RC

      A lot of people want to run, a lot of people struggle with their running, so I thought right at the top of this conversation, in your view, are humans born to run?

    7. HH

      I, I look at, um, what happened when I was a young mum and my children were taking their first steps, to great applause, uh, to, gotta get the camera out, gotta record it. And then realizing that they were running away from the tickle monster, to no applause, it just happened. No festivities, nothing. They were just now already running. And really, it makes me stop and think about, when did it stop? Because they ran. Kids run. We just run. We crawl, maybe. We, if we don't crawl, we get up, we haul ourselves along the furniture, and we walk. We put one foot in front of the other, and then the pace changes, uh, sometimes to prevent toppling over, and sometimes because we wanna reach something quickly, and then we start to chase, and it's just playful. We run. That's what we do. It's another gear. It's just another gear. So if you can walk, you probably... There's gonna be somebody in the world somewhere who can't run even though they can walk, but generally speaking, if you can walk, you can run, and it's just what we do. If we need to get across the road quickly, we'll break into a trot. If we need to run for the train, we will run for the train. It's what we do. It's just a gear. So yes, I feel passionately that we are born to run, meant to run, meant to be able to run, all things being equal.

  2. 2:27 – 10:09

    The injury paradox: why running pain shows up and why it’s not “running’s fault”

    1. RC

      I mean, it's interesting to think about that. I think that's a great way of looking at running. All kids run, right? They, they run. They want to run. They're not running, generally speaking, because, you know, an adult is telling them to run. They're running for joy, for pleasure. So, so what happens then, right? Because in preparation for this conversation, I was looking on Google this morning about what percentage of runners are reported to get injured, and there's all kinds of stats kicking around there. One stat was 80%. 80% of people, or 80% of runners, at some point have been injured or are injured. So what happens then? As kids, as toddlers, we run for pleasure, and then when we're adults, some of us can't run because of pain.

    2. HH

      And I think the-- And, and even with, uh, all of the bells and whistles that you, that are available to buy in the sporting industry, the, the injury r- um, numbers are not going down. If anything, they're going up, uh, because the last time, I think in Born to Run, Christopher Mc-Christopher McDougall's book, I think it was something like 70%, so if it's now 80%, it's going up. And you think, "Why? Why is that happening?" And I think the stopping is, uh, a big part of the problem. So the children, at some point, and I think it's quite early, they stop, because now running around the playground either isn't cool, or running has now become, uh, a, a discipline rather than just another pace of excitement of, "Well, I wanna get from there to there, and I wanna do it a bit quicker, so I'm gonna go to run." It becomes a discipline, a sporting discipline, and then as soon as it becomes regimented, I think the joy gets sucked.

    3. RC

      Yeah.

    4. HH

      And children then, ugh, because the team sports, um, I think also play a part, so children develop at different rates, and some are more coordinated than others. And if you are slower in developing your coordination, and you're not chosen for the school team, your interest is understandably going to get lower.

    5. RC

      Yeah.

    6. HH

      And, and then these people ha- there's no incentive to get up and move and continue their enjoyment of movement, because they can't join in with, you know, the cool guys who are-

    7. RC

      Yeah

    8. HH

      ... being chosen in the A team or the B team.

    9. RC

      And I guess then they sort of tell themselves, "I'm not very good at this," you know, "This is not for me," and then, you know, they go down a different path.

    10. HH

      Yeah.

    11. RC

      It's these, there's these crucial forks in the road where we can take multiple paths, not just two, and which path do we end up going down often depends upon those kind of experiences. And I think, yeah, I think there's a lot to be questioned in the school system, if I'm honest, about a whole variety [laughs] of things which we've spoken about, not just, uh, running. But, but one thing I've sort of really learnt with you, Helen, and I think I knew it already. I think I just had a, I th- I, I just think I've deepened my understanding of it, is that if there's an adult listening or watching to this right now, and they're either a runner or they're not a runner, or they haven't run for a while, 'cause everyone ran at one point, pretty much, I think there's this misconception that- When I run, I get injured. Let's say after 20 minutes I get knee pain, so therefore running is not for me, or running is bad for my knees. That's the conclusion, but if we go upstream a little bit and go, well, hold on a minute, we can't say that running's not for you, or that running is bad for your knees just because of that. The way I look at it, and a lot of this has been informed by you, is that, well, maybe your body is in such a state at this current moment in time where, yes, you can't run without having pain, but it's not running that's the problem necessarily. It could be their structure or their biomechanics or their form. So actually I now have the belief, because I came to you in pain-

    12. HH

      Mm

    13. RC

      ... I came to you with a whole host of little injuries that were getting in the way of my ability to run, but I now believe that all of us can run pain-free if we learn how to do it.

    14. HH

      Yeah, and it's a funny thing, isn't it? It's the most innate movement, putting one foot in front of the other. It's what everything in our movement development takes us towards, from this born blob that doesn't really do much to, you know, toppling around on two little feet, to then being coordinated on two feet, and it takes however long it takes to get that movement coordination organized. And then, uh, it is the, the pain element, people bump into themselves because, for whatever reason, and there are so many of them, they're not walking efficiently. They don't even know how to put one foot in front of the other efficiently because they don't know how they're walking, and they bring the way that they're walking into their running-

    15. RC

      Mm

    16. HH

      ... with all the restrictions that are there already, but they, they pass under the radar of being unnoticed because there's no pain when they walk. As soon as you add running into the mix, you've got intensity, because now the body has to mass manage both feet off the ground-

    17. RC

      Mm

    18. HH

      ... landing on one little tiny bit of foot, and then pushing off the same foot onto the next one. So things that are running under the radar, but are there, then pop out with the running. So they were fine, they started their Couch to 5K, and now they're stuck. Maybe they reach 5K, but they can't go any further. Maybe they didn't even reach 5K. It's not the running, it's what they brought to-

    19. RC

      Yeah

    20. HH

      ... their running that was the problem, but it was under the radar. Nobody knew because it didn't hurt to walk.

    21. RC

      Yeah. It's like that stress threshold. We've all got our threshold, and if we live underneath it, and we manage our stress, we take active steps on a daily basis to do so, often we never get to that threshold, so we never get to the point where we're, you know, blowing up or getting irritated, or our back goes into spasm, right? Because we're, we're not getting to that point, and I guess it's the same thing with running. Running, I feel from what you're saying and from what I've experienced with you, running has been my greatest teacher-

    22. HH

      Yeah

    23. RC

      ... over the past 18 or 20 months, because it has, it has enabled certain imbalances to reveal themselves to me, through you, with your expertise. [laughs] But it's, it's, it's allowed them to show up, where it's like, ah, cool, I've now got an opportunity to look at the root cause of this. So instead of blaming the running, it's about looking what is the real root cause of that, and I, and I wish everyone could have been through the journey I've been on. We'll, we'll get through what... We'll definitely get to that during this conversation. Um, but I, I wanna make sure this is not just relevant to runners, Helen, because I think at the core... Well, there's two cores I see in your work. One is efficiency-

    24. HH

      Mm-hmm

    25. RC

      ... and one is noticing.

    26. HH

      Mm.

  3. 10:09 – 15:42

    Noticing as the foundation of change: awareness before technique

    1. RC

      And I wanna spend a bit of time on them, because if someone's listening or watching this, and they don't think of themselves as a runner, most people are probably walking if they're able to, and I think those two principles that I feel underpin a lot of the work that you do are relevant to anyone who moves, which frankly is anyone who lives. So let's start with noticing. Why is noticing so important to you?

    2. HH

      If, uh, so there's a beautiful quote, uh, by Philip Ball in Critical Mass, um, and he says, uh, "For without change there's nothing to talk about." And when I read that, and it was with reference to the, the second law of thermodynamics. But literally I had to close the book, put it down, and take a moment, because that's what it's all about. If we don't notice stuff, how can we change it? So the beginning of change is noticing, it's awareness. And so we get this, uh, underlying something is going on with walking, but there's no pain, then people want to, and I applaud everybody who just is giving it a go, they get off the couch, and they start their running journey, but there's this underlying unknowing so far within their walking. Then to that unknowing is added every preconception, misconception known to Google, or known to conversations about running, known to running magazines, where there are these ideas that are being promoted that definitely must have helped somebody, and more than one somebody, people. But people absorb, uh, what they hear, see, read, whatever Dr. Google says, and apply that to their underlying unknowingness with their walking into their running. And without noticing that their body couldn't even do that walking, then they're just, it, it's just a matter of time. How many repetitions, voluminous repetitions, are going to have to occur before that tipping point occurs, and they're gonna have pain? So the beginning of everything is noticing what is going on in your body and what isn't going on. I'm forever sleuthing for what Gary Ward suggests is the, the dark spaces, and we're shining a light on the dark spaces. If you don't know what is moving and what isn't moving, how can you make any progress in creating more of you to join the job? Otherwise, you're leaving too little of your body to do the job all by itself. We should be job sharing. Everything should be moving. If we're moving, everything moves.

    3. RC

      Yeah, I mean, and just, uh, for those, for those people who don't know Gary, Gary has been a huge influence on both of our lives.

    4. HH

      Yep.

    5. RC

      Gary's been on the podcast. Many years ago, Gary was the person who I attributed to initially being the first person who really helped me get rid of my 10 years of chronic lower, uh, back pain, which really caused me all kinds of problems. I had to give up sport, I had to take loads of time off work. You know, I couldn't get in the car, couldn't lift my kids. And without oversimplifying Gary's work, he helped me realize actually my right foot, um, wasn't working as well as it might have done. And literally with five minutes of right foot exercises per day, maybe less, my back pain went [laughs] to the point where I could return to all the things at that time which I wanted to do. And that led me on a journey to, you know, getting to minimalist footwear because I loved the feeling of feeling my feet and understanding what it was doing. And I, I know you also, uh, like Gary's philosophy, Anatomy in Motion, but, but you also, I think, bring a lot of your other philosophies that you've learnt over the years to the way you, uh, teach people. And I think one of the reasons I've resonated so much with your approach is A, it works [laughs] .

    6. HH

      Human bodies work. So you just work with the human body, uh, in all of its glory, and you can create change, sight and trapped.

    7. RC

      No. Well, I think that's one of the things you, you also say a lot is that human bodies are logical. Like, and you... I-I... What's so empowering when, when I've worked with you, Helen, is that I always have confidence that it doesn't matter what the issue is, you're just gonna be able to show me why that's happening. And a lot of people are walking around, going, "God, why is my knee always hurting when I run? Why, why is my hammy going at 5K each week?" And you have some great technology available to you, but let's talk about that. But I think this idea that running is a whole body movement, walking is a whole body movement, I've learnt with you that actually sometimes changing position of my wrist impacts how fast I move, or the-

    8. HH

      Yeah

    9. RC

      ... or, or the, or the pressure going through my leg, and you show me on the machine, and I think, "Well, that's incredible. I had no idea." So I think a lot of people think it's just their, their two legs moving back and forth, right? But it's, it's not that, it's a whole body movement.

  4. 15:42 – 19:21

    Whole-body running mechanics: shoulders, leaning, and propulsion

    1. HH

      Yeah. So the upper body and the lower body cooperate. So, uh, the easiest way to describe it is exactly how I assess. So somebody's standing still, what's going on? Then they walk. What is the same? Nothing should be the same. So anything that is the same stands out, and you can do this in front of the mirror. You could just stand in front of the mirror and just make a note, is one shoulder higher than the other? And then you can march on the stop, sh- on the spot. Does that shoulder stay higher? And then you can trot on the spot. Does it still stay high? Okay, that shoulder needs to be high. Why? Why does it need to be high? We need to find that out because that's going to affect... If you stay, um, to keep it really simple, if you stay with one shoulder higher than the other, the low shoulder makes it easy for you to land on that leg because we lean into the leg we're landing on, it gives all sorts of delicious shock absorption opportunity, just through the, the laws of joint mechanics. But if we're still leaning on that leg when we propel, that's a lot of work. We should be leaning away from the propelling leg. So our shoulders are continually switching height as we run and walk.

    2. RC

      When you say propel, uh, what does that mean for people?

    3. HH

      So the trail leg pushing off. So the trail leg-

    4. RC

      The leg that's behind you

    5. HH

      ... that's behind you is pushing you forward. We get pushed forward from behind more than we really drag ourselves from the front because all of the big, juicy muscles of propulsion are behind us. Our glutes, the biggest muscle group in the body, they are behind you.

    6. RC

      Yeah.

    7. HH

      And they help propel you forward. But if we're leaning on that leg, then that's just a whole world of extra work.

    8. RC

      So let's say someone just heard that, and they thought, "Okay, I'm gonna go and stand in front of the mirror, and I'm gonna notice what my body looks like." And then they walk, and then they march on the spot, and then they run on the spot, and they just notice what happens.

    9. HH

      Yeah.

    10. RC

      What can they do with that? Like, if they're noticing... I mean, noticing is great, right? 'Cause at least there's, you're starting to build in that awareness, that, "Oh, wow-

    11. HH

      Yeah

    12. RC

      ... why is my left shoulder higher than my right?" Which I have had for many, many years.

    13. HH

      [laughs]

    14. RC

      Um, not that I knew it before I started working with you, but i-i... what can people do with that information, though, if they, if they discover it?

    15. HH

      Taking a shoulder as a case in point, if they then reached up with the high shoulder, so they just reached their arm above their head, and just felt for how easy that movement was, and then compared it to how easy it is for the other arm, the low shoulder arm, to reach above the head. So you're not looking for necessarily, um, the same range of motion. That would be nice, but if you've got an asymmetry in the shoulders, it's unlikely. But you're looking for the quality of the motion, because it might be that the high shoulder feels restricted, not the low shoulder. So just because it's high doesn't mean it's, that's the problem. It could be the low shoulder. But if it's the low shoulder, it could... It doesn't ma- It... The, the asymmetry doesn't tell you where the problem is.

    16. RC

      Yeah. Now, I think that's a key point, isn't it?

    17. HH

      Yes.

    18. RC

      It's, it's, it's like in medicine where the site of the symptom is not always the site of the problem. So your eczema, for example, might be coming from your gut.

    19. HH

      Yes.

    20. RC

      You know, your migraine might be getting triggered by something that you're eating.

    21. HH

      Yes.

  5. 19:21 – 23:21

    Why the symptom isn’t the cause: asymmetry, pain, and the stretch trap

    1. RC

      So it's not necessarily a head problem, it's... It, it... You've got to find out what it is. And I came to see you, uh, I couldn't run at that time. I don't... Even though I was doing the park run, the 5K every few weeks with my son, I don't think I could run more than 2K at that time without my hammy really, my right hammy feeling, my right hamstring feeling really, really tight and sore. But you helped me get rid of that. But we didn't really deal with the hamstring, did we?

    2. HH

      No. No. We, it, the, the pain area interests us in that we want to understand why the pain, uh, is there. So if we see asymmetry in a body, doesn't mean to say there's going to be any pain anywhere.

    3. RC

      And I'm just gonna pause you there. Asymmetry, so, um, not symmetrical on both sides.

    4. HH

      Yeah. So you're looking left to right, and front to back. So you can have a side view or a view from the front or the back.

    5. RC

      Yeah.

    6. HH

      And when things are not stacked on top of each other, that's all it is, it's just an alignment thing, it doesn't mean there's gonna be any pain anywhere. But if there is pain, we need to understand why is the pain there. So if somebody is standing with their pelvis over to the left, which would lean their right leg in, um, and, and push their left leg, uh, in the other way, so you'd be in this sort of slanty position, I'm exaggerating of course. You could have pain in your left hip because you're pushing into it all the time. But you could have pain in your right hamstring because it's leaning away from the foot the whole time.

    7. RC

      Yeah.

    8. HH

      So it's, it's with the shapes that we make, understanding, well, why is that pain there? Is this a, something that is stuck in a long position? So if I'm leaning over to the left, my right hamstring is going to be possibly slightly long, and if it stays there it never gets a chance to be short. So the point of that little example is if stretching was going to be the answer, it's already long, and it might feel as if the, the hamstring is, is grateful for the extra stretch, but only because you're changing its status quo.

    9. RC

      Yeah.

    10. HH

      But it, you're probably promulgating the problem, because actually that hamstring wants to be shorter. The pelvis wants to shunt, uh, to the right to get that leg-

    11. RC

      Yeah

    12. HH

      ... upright to make the hamstring's woes less.

    13. RC

      Uh, and this is where I think this holistic whole body approach that you take is actually so important and will pretty much help everyone, because what I see a lot of is, and I d- c- completely understand this, and I'm saying this with full respect to the healthcare professionals involved, that often it'll be, "Oh, my hammy gets sore." So they go and have the sports massage on the hammy, and it might feel a bit better. Or they, uh, it's sore and tight so they stretch it. But sometimes that's not the right thing to do. Or they go and see a healthcare professional who does some work on the hammy. But often, like with me, the hamstring, you c- I could see it on your machine, which I do want you to tell us about shortly. I could see very clearly, oh, of course my right hamstring is taking the load of my entire body. So it's trying its best. So actually stretching it may not be the right thing to do. It might be, it might not, but I needed your help there. And, and I kind of feel this is a really key point for people, is that the site of your injury or your pain may not be the site of the problem.

    14. HH

      So often, more often than not, the pain area is the area doing the most work.

    15. RC

      So we should treat it with love, right?

    16. HH

      Yes. That's why-

    17. RC

      That's trying its best to help us

  6. 23:21 – 35:07

    “Don’t stop running—stop running like that”: pain as a teacher and habit change

    1. HH

      ... invariably it's asking for a holiday. Invariably it's, it's talking to you. The pain is talking to you, "Please get off me. Please, can you get the other leg to do something?" So when people come in and they say, uh, you know, the doctor says, "Well, I, I mustn't run anymore," I, I say, number one I say, "Okay, there's, there's a word missing there. Don't run badly. Just don't be mean to your body." So not don't run ever again, just don't run meanly, badly ever again. So the pain is on one side. Invariably the pain is on one side. Even when it becomes both sides, it started on one side, and one side tends to be worse than the other. I have never come across anybody ever that has equal started and remained, uh ... the same time and the same intensity. It's, it has a bias to one side or the other invariably. And, and I say, "Well, okay, stop running. Let's just think about this. What does, where is the logic in this statement? Are you hopping? You are running. The other knee's fine, so why is this knee complaining? It's, it can't be running, because the other knee is fine." There's no logic in saying it must be running.

    2. RC

      Yeah.

    3. HH

      It is the activity that tips you over the balance. If you don't have the pain when you walk, okay, there, there is a tipping point. So now we have some intensity, some volume of intensity. Invariably, it only starts when I'm doing hill drills or speed work. So there's an intensity that, that that knee can cope with for a certain amount of time, and then it can't.

    4. RC

      There, there's kind of a spiritual parallel here, isn't there, where we move away from problems in life. You know, we, we find something irritating or, you know, let's say someone leaves a comment for us or whatever that, that, that triggers us, and we have a tendency to, to move like, "Oh, that's irritating, isn't it?" We don't want that, when actually it's a gift. It's a gift to go, "Oh, you know, what is it within me that is getting triggered by that comment or by that action?" And when you sort of truly get that, you put yourself, you give yourself a sense of control. It's like, okay, it's not about them. It's about I can work on something in me. And I, the way you were describing that there, I kind of saw a very similar parallel with movement in our bodies. And it's like if your ankle or your knee or your back or your hamstring is giving you pain, lean into it, not literally with a stretch [laughs] but, you know, go, "Okay, great. The, I now have an opportunity to discover something about my body that I didn't previously know."

    5. HH

      Yes. Yes. It is, uh, it will teach you. Pain is one of the best teachers. So when I work with somebody, invariably they might be running along, and the pain starts again. And I say, "Okay." So they will know why the pain is where it is by that time. "Okay. Where is your shoulder? What is that hand doing?" Whatever it might be. "Where is your ear?" Okay, so we're working on the problem, so you can't just hack into the system and change the way you move. You have to find out why you're moving that way, put stimuli in, movement stimuli in to change that situation. But then whilst that is all happening in the background, we have to start to chip away at old habits.

    6. RC

      Yeah.

    7. HH

      So we have, uh, the, the work, um, of movement stimuli getting into the body, uh, shining lights on these dark areas. But we also have ways, uh, in the actual action of running to notice these habits that just creep in when you're not really thinking about it. And then the person will, will know their way in to help them- them- themselves. They will apply it, and they'll take the pain away, because the pain was telling them that there was too much going on on that area. The weight was in the wrong place, but they knew how to get out of that scenario, and they take control of their problem.

    8. RC

      Yeah. It's... That, that-

    9. HH

      The pain teaches them. Yeah, the pain teaches them-

    10. RC

      And actually-

    11. HH

      ... where they are

    12. RC

      ... what you do, and you're too modest to, um, sing your own praises, so I'll sing them c- 'cause you, you know, you, you real- you really are incredible. Like, I've... What I have... You know, for me, it's not about running actually, and we- we'll get to my marathon journey later, 'cause a lot of people want me to unpack it, and who better than you to do, [laughs] to do it with me. Um, but my work with you is actually not about running. Yes, we run. It's about efficiency. It's about me understanding my body better. It's about longevity. Because I know now from all the work I've done with you, my body moves better than it has ever moved before. So I walk better. I, I walk so quickly now without even trying, right? Uh, Ved used to say, "Why can't you walk quicker?" Like, I struggled to keep up with her, but I had all these restrictions that I didn't know about. Now that they've been freed and released, I effortlessly walk more. And for me, this, why I invest so much time and energy into movement is because good quality movement is necessary for our daily lives. But it's necessary when you're 70, 80, 90. Look around at a lot of people, how they walk. I see my mum, who I have to help care for. I think I, I really don't want to be like that. And so if I can invest in my body, get more efficiency now, I'm gonna be a healthier 80 year old, 90 year old, you know? And, and it, for me, that's the really exciting thing. This goes beyond running. And we've got your view on that. You, you know, people would call you a running coach. I think that is far too reductionist a term for you. But, but what does that make you think of? Do you, do you accept that term, or would you frame it slightly differently?

    13. HH

      Um, I don't, uh, I struggle with labels. People ask, um, what I am. [laughs] "What are you?" [laughs] I think, "Well, I know what I am. I'm Helen Hall." Uh, I'm, I'm, I'm not an ism of any description. My educational journey has taken this lovely meandering, a bit like this river flowing here, and I, I go off on little tributaries, and I, I just, if I can't answer a question, I'll seek to learn, uh, to find the information so I can answer the question. So- Um, I coach running, yeah, sure. I assess running, I assess movement, and I implement change into that movement. I, I analyze stuff, I sleuth, um, movement, and, and I coach running, and I guide people towards being less mean to their bodies. So the training programs, uh, that are ubiquitous, and people have-- There's a lot of opinions out there, and, and that's all fine. W- and my opinion is, generally speaking, that we are just, uh, not kind enough to our bodies because we're not really knowing of what our bodies can do, want to do, um, are able to do. So if we take it back to the beginning about whether or not we're born to run, and we move from walking into running, and it's just another gear. If we accept that putting one foot in front of the other is an innate movement in us, why would we need to learn to walk better? So you talked about you've discovered you're walking better. But that is-- Even that alone is so interesting because why is it that people do need to learn to walk better? And it's simply because they haven't noticed how badly they've started to move. Not bad walking, but movement. And it's not that I teach anybody how to walk. There's no right or wrong way to walk. But are you bringing your entire body along with you in that walking gait? Is everything, is the timing, um, on point? Is, uh, one leg and the other leg doing the same job? Is the pelvis only rotating one way, so you have one and a half strides rather than two strides? And then taking that, because everybody walks before they run. We can't be Forrest Gump, we can't run everywhere, because it's too much intensity. So we have to be able to walk well, to walk efficiently, to walk smoothly, to be able to then transition that into running with the same mechanics that we have for walking, just with more intensity.

    14. RC

      Yeah.

    15. HH

      So it's very important people think, not to think that they have to learn how to walk properly. It's not properly. It's just more effectively, more efficiently using more of their body, which then instantly translates into running.

    16. RC

      Yeah. Well, but that's, that's this, this underpinning philosophy for me, Helen. It's efficiency, and it's noticing.

    17. HH

      Yeah.

    18. RC

      Like I, I really feel if I look back on our last 18 months together, there's so many different things I've learnt about myself, yes, physically, but also emotionally, and maybe we'll get to that, uh, later in the conversation this time. But I think they're the two biggest things. I understand my body better now-

    19. HH

      Yeah

    20. RC

      ... which is why, despite a challenging London Marathon day, because of what you've taught me and because of what I now know about my body, I was able to manage my entire body around the last 16 miles when I could barely run because of my groin.

    21. HH

      Yeah.

    22. RC

      I don't think I could have done that without the knowledge. Um, and it is efficiency. Like you've not-- Like I just walk and run faster, and it feels easier. Like it, because it's, it's about efficiency. And one of the things I feel very proud of that with the work we did together is that you allowed my training to fit around my life.

    23. HH

      Mm.

    24. RC

      It didn't overtake me.

    25. HH

      Mm.

    26. RC

      I probably under-trained compared to what a lot of people do-

    27. HH

      Mm

    28. RC

      ... for a marathon, but I don't think that's the reason why I had a tricky day at all.

    29. HH

      No.

    30. RC

      I really don't believe that. But this key point I w- I really want to get across, um, is noticing. And, and can I-- The example I want to use is last time you came to the house, you went for a run with my brother. So you didn't go all in detail like you have done with me, but you've transformed the way he runs from spending 30, 40 minutes with him.

  7. 35:07 – 47:09

    Head position as the “elephant in the room”: the biggest modern limiter

    1. RC

      want to talk about noticing, I want to talk about head forward posture, and I kind of want to frame it around is our heads being forward the number one problem that you see these days?

    2. HH

      So I continually say with so much enthusiasm, because it is the beginning of everything getting better, if your head isn't on right, nothing great is gonna happen. If you don't know where your head is, nothing great is gonna happen, because it is heavy, and it is sensory headquarters, no pun intended. This is our most precious commodity. All of our movement coordination is organized so that we don't face plant. So if that head is off its perch, the muscles are hanging onto it for dear life. So if our head, if I just move my head there, I can turn my head this much. Because there's so many structures now hanging onto my head, which is not perched effortlessly on top of the spine.

    3. RC

      And for people listening, Helen just put her head forwards, uh, so the- the typical sort of head forward posture that many of us have these days, and her rotation was completely limited when she tried to move her neck from side to side.

    4. HH

      I forgot that this was, um, yes, uh, n- not just, uh, me looking at you. So then I put-

    5. RC

      [laughs]

    6. HH

      ... my, my head on right, so I just park it where it- it feels most wobbly. So I'm just sat here, and I can just wibbly-wobbly it about, and it just feels easy. And I can turn my head, and I've got just this much bigger range of motion. And if you do that standing in front of the mirror, you will find you will have more movement everywhere in your body. A head that isn't on its perch is being hung onto by a whole swathe of soft tissue, which limits the joint rotations, which limits your movement, which seems a bit sad.

    7. RC

      Would you say, 'cause there's obviously so many complaints people have with running, but also walking, just movement in general, but, you know, if someone said to you, what is the number one problem you see in the 21st century with people wanting to run-

    8. HH

      Yeah

    9. RC

      ... is this it?

    10. HH

      Yeah. It- it is. Uh, without a shadow of a doubt. It, uh, my, my job mainly entails getting rid of the elephant in the room. Case in point, there was a young footballer, career-threatening injury. It was lockdown. Uh, he couldn't, nobody could move. It was the first lockdown. And, uh, he, he w- it was suggested that I might be able to help, so he reached out, and I said, "Send me some video." And I, it was, the elephant in the room was a forward head of, um, it was epic that he was actually able to stay upright and not faceplant. His body was working so hard with that forward head position. And, and I said to him, "Uh, has anybody mentioned your head?" Because maybe I was wrong. Maybe his symptoms were nothing to do with his head. If somebody had a- already dealt with it, then it wasn't that. So people come to me, a slight digression, people come to me, I'm generally last resort, but they come, and there's all this wonderful evidence already that's happened, so all the work that's been, that's happened already isn't wasted because this is all evidence that, okay, well, that hasn't helped, that hasn't helped, that hasn't helped. So, okay, let's stay away from all of that and make sure we do something different, otherwise it, we know it's not gonna work. So I just needed to make sure that nobody had mentioned this elephant in the room, 'cause it was extraordinary. And, and I said, "Anybody mentioned your head position?" And he went, "Oh, yes." And I go, "Oh, okay. Okay, great. So did you do something about it?" And he went, "What do you mean?" And I said, "Well, did your team physio- physios help you with your head position?" "Oh, no, no, it wasn't the... No, no, it was my wife." [laughs]

    11. RC

      Wow.

    12. HH

      And so it was, "Okay. Okay, you should listen to your wife. Yes, let's deal with this."

    13. RC

      So she, his wife had noticed the forward head position.

    14. HH

      Yes, yes. And this guy, he hadn't been able to take a single running step despite several surgeries, and within two weeks he was running. And, and when he went back, they were saying, "Oh, you're, you're running better than we've ever seen you move."

    15. RC

      Yeah.

    16. HH

      And, and all we'd done was popped his head back on place-

    17. RC

      Yeah

    18. HH

      ... where it, where it was meant to be.

    19. RC

      And, and I just wanna add here because, I mean, I love this stuff, Helen-

    20. HH

      [laughs]

    21. RC

      ... because it's like you said, you know, people don't know where their head is. I now know where my head is, like, I don't think I did two years ago. I, I kind of, I think I'm pretty good with my body. I think I've got a really good awareness, I think. But even if I did, it has been, you know, upgraded [laughs] a hundredfold over the past 18 months, which is, you know, I can really see, even when I'm out walking now, and, but I feel I've got a new, um, a new joy of movement. I love movement anyway. I love it now. I love going for a walk, but not in the way that I used to. I used to love going for a walk two years ago, but now it's an opportunity for me to, yes, switch off, get some relaxation, but also move efficiently.

    22. HH

      And that goes, s- people say running is boring, and it, it is, there's so much to think about. How could it possibly be boring? There's things to see and things to notice constantly. It's a constant body scan, and it's not a boring... That sounds onerous. It's not onerous at all. You had the skill at the, when it, the, when it got tough, and it was tough for a long time for you in the marathon, you had the skill, even when it was hard, to not make it harder. So in learning about your own body, if, if, if you're not gonna look after your own body, who is? You know, you have control over your own body, and if you learn about it, when things get tough, you can make it as easy as possible. If you don't learn about it, you can easily make things much harder than they need to be.

    23. RC

      Yeah.

    24. HH

      So at the end of the Ironman, uh, we, we swim a lo- long way, we cycle a long way, and then we run a marathon. And it is continually surprising to me to see people bent, shuffling, head down. It's hard. Everybody's tired. But in that fatigue, they are making things harder, and if they just knew how to arrange their body parts to make it less onerous, they would complete that marathon section at the end of the Ironman e- more easily.

    25. RC

      It's like a car, right? Isn't it? Let's say you're on a long journey, and I don't, it's probably not the best analogy, but I'm just trying to, just trying to sort of look at it a slightly different way. Like, if your car, if your back left wheel has got a puncture- And you keep trying to push through with it. That, that last leg of your journey's just gonna take longer, you're gonna be doing damage [laughs] to the car. You know, you're not gonna be moving as efficiently. Whereas if you stop and, you know, pump it up and actually make sure all four wheels are symmetrical again, and, and s- you know, got the same tire pressure, it's gonna effortlessly finish the last leg of the journey. I guess it's, it's-

    26. HH

      It's a nice analogy

    27. RC

      It works, doesn't it?

    28. HH

      Yeah.

    29. RC

      I think it works

    30. HH

      It really does. So those are spark plugs. So I call those spark plugs. So people will, they'll be running, and they'll, they'll think there's... This is another misconception, uh, or a preconception. I think it's a misconception, that they- people push through pain. You, you're to push through pain, you know, run through it. I think it's probably more likely to be your body saying, you know, "Can you get off? Can you stop? Can you stop moving like that?" What can you do to help that body part along? So instead of pushing through, you go into a walk, rearrange yourself, and then people I work with will always have a go-to movement-

  8. 47:09 – 52:28

    Training plans vs. body awareness: undertrained, overtrained, and “by rote” mistakes

    1. HH

      Yeah. And in my experience, they work best for the ab initio, so the, the first-timers, so when people are taking up a new distance-

    2. RC

      Right

    3. HH

      ... or, um, a new discipline. The, uh, a really, a nice story exemplifying this, I think, is, um, uh, a girl, uh, who went with her boyfriend to New Zealand to do, um, Ironman New Zealand. She had done, uh, a classic distance, um, triathlon, which is, so the run at the end is a 10K as opposed to a marathon, so that's, you know, everything is shorter. Uh, when they got there, because it's New Zealand, there were still spaces to, uh, sign up. So she had not trained for an Ironman. Her boyfriend had trained for the Ironman, and she just thought, "Well, I'll just give it a go while I'm here. I'll just, uh, you'd get to see a little bit more of the countryside, so off I go." And she did amazingly well, staggeringly well, to the extent that, oh, my goodness, uh, you need to do Ironman because this is your sport. And then she trained for it. She followed a training program for it. She never, ever achieved that same time. She got slower and slower because she arrived fresh, uh, uninjured, because she hadn't put her body through the mill. I always say it's always better to start on the start line a little bit undertrained than even a teeny tiny bit overtrained. You don't want to be fatigued before you start. So she hadn't trained for it. It was a huge event. You know, she, she did it in just over 11 hours, which is, you know, that would be a dream for me. It's still a lot a mo- a lot of movement, continual movement, and she was never able to replicate that with training, because the training put her body into a state of fatigue and continual, you're j- you're just always trying to catch up with yourself. So people in the first... If they follow a training program that might be online and it worked the first time, they will do it again, and then the injuries tend to start happening. Because it worked the first time because they were already in a state of undertraining, because they hadn't done anything. And then the second time, they build, and now they're, they're doing it following, um, by rote, rather than following it noticing-

    4. RC

      What do you mean by rote?

    5. HH

      By rote, they're... So if it says, and this is again through experience, they would race on a Sunday, uh, race day was Sunday. Hill training day with the club is Monday, and they would hill train on a Monday because that's what the club does, even though they'd raced on the Sunday. And nobody's body can do that with any consistency and not struggle to recover, because the, the, the muscle fibers that we use with that kind of intensity take a minimum of 48 hours to recover.

    6. RC

      Yeah.

    7. HH

      And, and that's only certain people. For some pe- it's, it's between 48 hours and a week. Now, I lie at the other end of the scale, so it would take me a week to recover from an intense session. And so people are training through the week, still recovering from that which they have done, the work that they have done, not realizing that their body is still recovering because they're managing. Well, it should be hard, shouldn't it?

    8. RC

      Yeah.

    9. HH

      It should hurt, shouldn't it? We go for the burn, don't we?

    10. RC

      Well, these are stories-

    11. HH

      Yes, and-

    12. RC

      That have become truth.

    13. HH

      Yes, and if, if we say it often enough, we'll believe it.

    14. RC

      But Helen, I, through the work I did with you, right, about two months before the marathon, we must have run together or covered together 20, 21 miles.

    15. HH

      Yes.

    16. RC

      Now, there was a nutrition issue, which you-- I was learning about how to fuel my body for that sort of distance-

    17. HH

      Yeah

    18. RC

      ... but there was no body me- biomechanical issue. Like, I didn't have pain anywhere.

    19. HH

      No.

    20. RC

      Like, my body didn't break down, and the next day, I, I didn't feel a thing.

    21. HH

      Yeah.

    22. RC

      I didn't stretch afterwards, right? I didn't hot bath afterwards. Because I was moving efficiently, and one of the things I love that you've taught me is that the body is a, what do you say, a self-massaging-

    23. HH

      Self-generating, self-organizing, self-manipulating. It does it all. We are a self-sustaining organism.

    24. RC

      Yeah, and so for me, that was an incredible learning because conventional wisdom is you're gonna be sore after that. You're going to need to do loads of recovery after that. You're gonna have to stretch. Again, I know that works for some people, right? So I'm not at all criticizing. I'm going in terms of my own experience. I was like, I feel nothing. We did our walking warmup. We did our walking warm down, as you always, uh, encourage people to do. I didn't feel a thing the next day. Nothing, and that was in barefoot shoes as well. Right? So this is challenging a

  9. 52:28 – 59:56

    Making movement relevant for everyone: fear of judgment, weight, illness, and “leveling”

    1. RC

      lot of these kind of, I think, misconceptions that are out there. Can we just for a moment take it away from the elite athlete? Because Ironmen, you know, triathlons, marathons, okay, a lot of people, I think, who listen to the show might not be interested in that. I know there's some quite sick people who listen to my show, and they might go, "You know, yeah, what's this got to do with me?" Well, I think efficiency of movement has something to do with everybody. So even if someone-- You know, for someone, their marathon literally might be a walk around the block. I've got patients who struggle that much. Maybe they've got issues with fatigue or fibromyalgia. You know, going around the block is their marathon.

    2. HH

      Yeah.

    3. RC

      Right? And they deserve just as much credit-

    4. HH

      Yep

    5. RC

      ... when they achieve their marathon as the kind of people we see on Instagram or on TV. But in advance of this conversation, a lady who follows me on Instagram has been messaging me, and you know, I get so many messages, it's hard to keep up with them. But I just happened to be able to s- It popped up when I engaged, and she replied, and we had a really nice interaction. She lives in Australia, and she loves running, and she's heard me rave about you and Gary before, so she's picked up your book, um, You Know, Even With Your Shoes On. She's downloaded your barefoot audio tracks.

    6. HH

      [laughs]

    7. RC

      And she loves running, but one thing she said to me really made me sad, actually. She said, "You know what? I'm, I have a fear and anxiety about running." And I asked her why, and she said, she sort of hinted that, um, she's carrying a lot of excess weight.

    8. HH

      Mm-hmm.

    9. RC

      She says, "I think I'm gonna be judged. I feel clumsy. I feel heavy. I feel thick. Um, I don't have the beautiful poetry in motion that I see online." And I felt that was just so sad that... You know, I've never met this lady. I've just had a few DMs exchanged with her.

    10. HH

      Mm-hmm.

    11. RC

      But I thought, "Wow, she wants to run. She's really motivated to. She's scared of being judged-

    12. HH

      Mm

    13. RC

      ... when she runs. She's scared of judging herself-

    14. HH

      Mm

    15. RC

      ... when she runs." And that, that line-

    16. HH

      Mm

    17. RC

      ... "not the beautiful poetry in motion runner."

    18. HH

      Mm. Mm.

    19. RC

      What, what would you say to that?

    20. HH

      Oh, so, uh, running is such a great leveler. I have been passed by, uh, so many bigger, uh, heavier, older... Uh, just to mention IRONMAN one more time, I was beaten on my first IRONMAN, uh, by three hours by a guy three decades older than me. So if, when you... Movement, movement is a leveler. So maybe, you know, sprinting, um, and fast, uh, accelerative sports, uh, aside, walking and running are levelers. It doesn't matter what size you are, what shape you are. My husband is a big guy, and he runs as light as a feather. Uh, Barefoot Ted complimented him on his running prowess. It's not about your size. It's not even about your fitness because that will just come. People ask, "Do I need to be fit to come to you?" Well, well, no, uh, you... Otherwise, nobody would be able to come because everybody's hurting so badly. The, the fitness comes with better movement because more of your body is being moved. So instead of the movement coming from a smaller part of your body, it's being shared, which makes the job easier, but now more of your body is moving, so you're manipulating more of your body, and you're, you're pumping life through more of your body. So with, with reference, um, people who are sick, the same thing applies. Where is your head? Are you making your walk around the block as easy as it could be, as all-encompassing with all of your body parts as it could be? Or is it harder than it needs to be? Which when you're already sick is, is, uh, is, well, you know, it's, uh, that is a hard thing to do. So you'd want that to be made as easy as possible, which then, and this, uh, goes back to, um, the father of osteopathy, Andrew Still, the artery is king. If you can get your head on right, then all of the tubes, it's just plumbing. All of the tubes, the, the kinks get taken out of the pipes. The blood can flow better. The metabolic waste can flow better. The air can flow better. It's easier to move. So when you, in any, whether you're tired, whether you're sick, whether you're injured, if you can understand how your body moves and notice where it isn't moving and help it along a little bit better, you will move better and then further and enjoy it more and, and, and, and, and it will grow.

    21. RC

      So this lady in Australia who wants to run, she wants to run more efficiently-

    22. HH

      Yeah

    23. RC

      ... but is fearful and nervous about it because of her size, and presumably because of the way she views herself on some level, what would you say to her directly?

    24. HH

      When I see, uh, people who aren't moving, uh, smoothly and fluidly, but they're out there, all I can think is, "Good for you. You're giving it a go. Just start." Uh, Hugh said it as it's, uh, such a commonly used, uh, Chinese proverb, but it's so true. It starts with a single step. We all, I think, have to learn to not judge quite as much as we do. Uh, it's certainly a work in progress for me. I think, uh, some people are better at it than others. Some people are really, really not very good at it at all. But when you see people out there giving it a go, don't... For, for her to even feel as if she's being judged is because she knows it's been in somebody else's eyes, and we collectively need to stop that. We need to stop judging people for getting out there and trying, and, and applauding them instead, like in the marathon.

    25. RC

      Yeah.

    26. HH

      The London Marathon, nobody was saying nasty things to anybody whilst they were trying, whilst they might've been struggling, might, when they might've been limping, they might've been walking. They were cheering them on. Doesn't matter how old they were, how big they were, how fit they looked, how much prowess they showed, they were being cheered.

    27. RC

      Yeah.

    28. HH

      We should be cheering everybody. As Hugh said, the party bus is at the back because those people at the back, they're the heroes. They're the people that inspire everybody. The people at the front, yes, great. The four-hour marathoners, good for you. Those aren't really the people that inspire everybody else to get off the couch and start moving.

    29. RC

      Yeah.

    30. HH

      Good for you is what I say to you. Just ignore what everybody else might be thinking. They might be thinking, "Good for you." So just go out and put one, one foot in front of the other, and notice where is your head? First job, where is your head? Get it on better. Get it on right. There's only one place for it to be, and only you know exactly where that is.

  10. 59:56 – 1:06:03

    Scaling access: the book, videos, and “Perpetual Forward Motion” efficiency

    1. RC

      And, and on that point, Helen, I know not everyone can work with you one on one, unfortunately, um, for a variety of reasons, but you're passionate about helping as many people as possible, so you've created these videos to kind of get the word out there so people can... Well, the way I see it with those videos, which are brilliant, is that, and if we get time, we'll talk about this, this is not the Helen Hall method, right? You're not, you don't have, you've not developed a new method of running. I came in with you thinking, "Oh, do I have to run like this? Is it the Chi method or the Pose method or..." And all these things that I'd read about, and you go, well, I don't know if that's ... the right thing for you. I'm just gonna help your body move more efficiently. How do you see those videos? 'Cause I, I kinda see that they can help people figure some of this stuff out themselves.

    2. HH

      Well, I'm the self-proclaimed queen of efficiency, so my whole world is about efficiency. So rather than, um, this way or that way, the right way or the wrong way, it's just can we have a non-confrontational discussion, conversation about what is best for you, what is absolutely right for you, with your body as it is, how can that, uh, make certain shapes to make movement more efficient? And working one person at a time really wasn't cutting my whole ethos of efficiency, which is why I ended up writing the book, because I thought, well, if I write a book, more people can read about what I say incessantly day in, day out.

    3. RC

      So tell us the title.

    4. HH

      [laughs] So, Even With Your Shoes On, uh, which... And, and I was warned, "Are you sure you wanna call it that?" I was like, "Totally." It came to me, and I knew it was right, Even With Your Shoes On, because people... I was known as a barefoot runner, much as you are now, and, uh, but it was... It's, it's not about the shoe. I just choose to have less on my feet than most. It's a choice. But you can put anything on your shoe. If your f- if your feet are comfortable, you can put anything on your feet, and you can move efficiently. So I titled the book Even With Your Shoes On so that it didn't, um, pigeonhole, uh, the presentation of the work to just people who wear less on their feet like I do. So I was trying to make it all-inclusive. Um, I don't know if I hit the spot there, but that's what it's called, and I still enjoy it.

    5. RC

      Book titles, yeah, don't get me started on book titles. [laughs]

    6. HH

      Yeah. So it, it was probably not the best, um, in terms of, uh, publishing, but it was my choice, so Even With Your Shoes On, and, uh, the book walks you by the hand. It started as a 26,000-word manual, and, uh, Gary's, uh, friend read it for me, and they held me by the hand and sat me down quietly and said, "Okay, so you need to assume that we all know less than you think we do, and hold us very carefully by the hand and start again." So my 26,000-word manual turned into a 105,000-word tome, which weighs nearly a kilo, but I... But it was absolutely the right thing to say, because I just wasn't using enough words, which is very unlike me, not using enough words so that people could follow it step by step, and we start with head position. We start with stacking, and still people had lots of questions because I couldn't... and I couldn't fit everything, couldn't fit everything in. So then I decided, well, I could make videos. As a result of lockdown, I was doing kind of online classes where I was preparing people-

    7. RC

      Yeah

    8. HH

      ... for their run, so, uh, a warmup, if you will, which actually can-- then became an exploration, which then if somebody had any energy left to do some running afterwards, which I always did, they would find more about their running as a result of exploring their body-

    9. RC

      Yeah

    10. HH

      ... through the movements in the videos. So essentially, the videos become me, uh, taking you for your warmup walk, talking about all the things that we discuss in a warmup walk, taking you through some movements to prepare yourself for your next running session, whether or not you're exploring hills or speed, um, or whatever it might be. You're narrow tracking because it turns out you've, you're always spraining your ankles, and you've got IT band issues, uh-

    11. RC

      Do- when you say narrow tracking, you're talking about the width-

    12. HH

      Yeah, between your feet

    13. RC

      ... at which your feet are apart when you run?

    14. HH

      Yes.

    15. RC

      Which again, I remember is something that we did together. It's like, oh, wow, I didn't know that changing the width of how far apart my feet are makes a difference, and you can feel it yourself.

    16. HH

      It's transformative-

    17. RC

      Yeah

    18. HH

      ... uh, to the extent that you see people running along these very narrow, overgrown trails, and, and I'm struggling. I've got one foot in the trail and one foot on the bank somewhere, because it, to, to run along that tightrope is just so uncomfortable.

    19. RC

      Do, do people... So I'm gonna put a link in the show notes to the book and the videos, 'cause I think they're gonna help so many people.

    20. HH

      Thank you.

    21. RC

      Um, you know, I've got friends who I've got the book for. They find it really helpful. Um, one friend in particular, you know, he's, he just loves it. It's really helped him. It's actually helped him with his golf swing.

    22. HH

      Yes. [laughs]

    23. RC

      It's helped him with his golf swing, you know, because what we're talking about is efficiency, efficiency of movement.

    24. HH

      I've got a, somebody wrote to me recently, and she's not a runner, and it's helped her walking.

    25. RC

      Yeah.

    26. HH

      It, because every single running session starts with walking, and walking involves your entire body. So it's just all we're doing is exploring your whole body so that you can use your whole body for whatever activity-

    27. RC

      Yeah

    28. HH

      ... you want to do. It doesn't matter the sport. It's just more of you being available, so you have more joy from your movement, and therefore maybe you'll keep it going and not stop once you've started.

  11. 1:06:03 – 1:14:58

    Unpacking the London Marathon: pain, identity, public attention, and inner voice

    1. RC

      Yeah. Well, I hope people get it, 'cause I've been lucky enough to work directly with you, um, but I, I, I just want everyone to have access to that wisdom and knowledge that you've imparted on me, and I think this is a great way, um, of you doing it. Um, let's get into the marathon, because we've touched on it a couple of times.

    2. HH

      [laughs] Yes.

    3. RC

      Um, uh, you know, I've been so busy since the marathon. I don't think I've had a chance to properly unpack it myself, so let's see what happens now when we, when we get into it.

    4. HH

      Well, I can't wait to hear all about it.

    5. RC

      Well, I don't know. Maybe you should ask the questions. I mean... [laughs]

    6. HH

      Well, uh, I think that the logical place to start is, uh, the end.

    7. RC

      Yeah. Um

    8. HH

      Because it invoked emotions that you weren't expecting, and working backwards from there might enable you to then shape it in your head to then be able to move forward with all of that information that you've just discovered inside you.

    9. RC

      Yes, it was interesting. Um, it wasn't the day that me or you, I guess, had expected or wanted. I really struggled.

    10. HH

      Yeah.

    11. RC

      Um, I think from mile three I was feeling my right groin.

    12. HH

      Yeah.

    13. RC

      I thought, "Come on, still." You know, you just, you know, you're in a positive frame of mind, you're seeing the crowds. You're like, "Oh, this'll go." You know, "Come on, just, just, you know, keep, you know, stick to the strategy." Um, but it wasn't getting better. It was progressively getting worse-

    14. HH

      Yeah

    15. RC

      ... uh, to the point where I was close to tears at times, and, and pain. And I think when, at one point when I saw Vid and the kids, I think I did burst into tears. It, I was, there was so much emotion in me during that, uh, event.

    16. HH

      Yeah.

    17. RC

      But in answer to your question, people who've followed me on Instagram or, or heard the conversation I had with Hugh a few episodes ago will have heard the four goals I had-

    18. HH

      Yeah

    19. RC

      ... for this marathon. I'll just reiterate them. One was to do the event and complete it in barefoot shoes, so I did it in my Vivobarefoots, and I, that was no problem at all. Uh, one was for the, um, the training and the aftermath to not overly interfere with my personal or professional life. I feel I've-

    20. HH

      Yeah

    21. RC

      ... succeeded there.

    22. HH

      Yeah.

    23. RC

      I wanted to nasal breathe the whole way round, uh, which I did, although given how much I had to walk in the end, I'm not sure I can claim, um, you know, uh, I think we have to put that in the context. But yes, I think I pretty much did apart from when talking to people, which I had to do quite a lot, which we'll get to.

    24. HH

      Yeah.

    25. RC

      Sorry to interrupt. If you are enjoying this content, there's loads more just like it on my channel, so please do take a moment to press Subscribe, hit the notification bell, and now back to the conversation. And the other goal was to finish with a smile on my face. So technically I did-

    26. HH

      Yeah

    27. RC

      ... finish with a smile on my face. Technically.

    28. HH

      Yeah.

    29. RC

      But I wasn't smiling on the inside.

    30. HH

      No.

  12. 1:14:58 – 1:41:31

    Scars and the body’s memory: the appendix operation as a lifelong movement driver

    1. RC

      Yeah, I mean, that, that's, I think this is a really good point. I wanted to bring up scars-

    2. HH

      Yeah

    3. RC

      ... at some point. I think now's a good time.

    4. HH

      Yeah.

    5. RC

      So I'll give you my understanding of this-

    6. HH

      Yeah

    7. RC

      ... and, um, you can then tell me if I've got this right or not. It looks like now, if I look back on my entire life with all my issues with movement that I have had, whether it's recurrent sprained ankles when I used to play squash as a teenager, whether it's the back pain or the inability to ever run up hills. Like, I remember at uni I'd run with my flatmate sometimes, and we'd get to a hill, I couldn't do anything. It was like, it's just like he flew off and I was like, almost had to walk. What I've learnt through you is that actually all of this may come down to the appendix operation I had when I was seven, eight, or nine. I can't remember at the exact age.

    8. HH

      Mm-hmm.

    9. RC

      Neither can my mum at the moment. [laughs]

    10. HH

      Right.

    11. RC

      Um, I was in India on holiday, and I know the story 'cause it's been sort of, you know, like you have stories in families that keep getting told. You know, the story is that we were due to fly home in a few days. Dad, we'd, you know, they'd taken me to see a few doctors. No one was doing anything. Um, I think everyone just wanted to wait and just say, "Look, you just fly home to the UK, get it sorted there." And my dad took me in somewhere. Dad, dad was a medical doctor. He insisted to the surgeon, "Take out my son's appendix. It needs to come out." So Dad insisted. They took it out, and the, as word has it, the story goes that it was a really, you know, uh, um, bent, infected appendix. Okay? Apparently everyone saw it afterwards.

    12. HH

      Mm-hmm.

    13. RC

      But I tell you what I remember, Helen. I remember so clearly. I was in the hospital the next day, and I thought I was standing straight, but I wasn't. What I thought was straight, I was bent over. I turned to my left and to my right, and the doctors or the nurses said to me, "We can't discharge you until you're standing up straight." This is my memory of the, of the conversation. And I remember-

    14. HH

      Yeah

    15. RC

      ... so we could get our flight home, I remember, I was only seven or eight, like blagging it basically, and actually tilting myself so that I was straight in the mirror to say, "Yeah, yeah, I'm straight. Can I go, can I go now?" Um, but to me that felt as though I was bent. And why I find that so interesting is because, and this comes down to the marathon and the injury, ever since I met you, this scar, this lower right abdominal appendix scar, you have had your eye on. You've done work on it. You know, my understanding is that I would never go into that area of my body. I would do anything I could, not consciously, my body would do anything it could to avoid compressing that scar. And for all the time we've worked together, we've done, we've made so many improvements. It's like peeling off layers of the onion. I'm getting faster, my movement's getting better. We went on this 21-mile run. I'm like, "Marathon, no problem. Yeah, bring it on. This is great. Barefoot shoes, nasal breathing. Come on, let's go." And literally four or five weeks when we popped in to see you in the summer, I still remember, you were shocked, I suddenly found the movement-

    16. HH

      Mm

    17. RC

      ... that you'd been trying to help me with that my brain couldn't get-

    18. HH

      Mm

    19. RC

      ... for a year and a half.

    20. HH

      Mm.

    21. RC

      And I know if I had done the marathon at the start of August, I actually think I would've smashed it, no problem.

    22. HH

      Yeah.

    23. RC

      So although it seems, or you could argue, oh, this is a failure, you didn't do it the way you wanted to, if it was all about the marathon, yeah, that was a failure. Or you could, you could make that argument. If it's my movement journey for life, what I discovered with you at the end of August, suddenly I can now get into that section of my body- It's like, well, this is great, it's just not brilliant timing because now, you know, w- w- is it, have I got that right?

    24. HH

      Yeah, yeah. A- a- absolutely. So the rest of your body was conditioned. We'd done a couple of 20-milers, uh, you'd done a 17-miler, a 15-miler. You'd- you'd figured out the nutrition, where things were going, you know, when the wheels were coming off. You'd- you'd done all the work. Um, and- and you were doing all of that without that movement. So everything was conditioned around the fact that the body was still resisting, and we just have to respect the body. Uh, there's a, there's another Chinese proverb, uh, le- um, by Tao, um, uh, Te Ching, I don't know how you pronounce it, but nature never hurries. But everything, everything happens in good time. So we can't accelerate time. Time is, we are time. So it's going to take as long as it's going to take. If, um, attention kept being given towards that area, which was so traumatized, it needed space before the surgery because of the inflammation, it would've needed space after the surgery because of the inflammation. And if you're in single digits, your juvenile central nervous system will, uh, it's in a state of survival. It will maintain that shape, uh, turned away, space, uh, a dropped hip. Every, ev- every rotation, three-dimensional movement to provide that area with the space it was asking for. And to invite movement back in isn't just a, you can't just tell your central nervous system, "No, you can go there now. It's all fine." Because it's got layers and layers of memory and scar tissue. There's a lovely book called The- The Body Keeps the Score.

    25. RC

      Yeah, brilliant.

    26. HH

      [laughs] So-

    27. RC

      I'm hoping to speak to Bessel soon on the podcast-

    28. HH

      It-

    29. RC

      ... with a bit of luck

    30. HH

      ... it is, um, I worked with a mountain biker who, um, hi- his injury list was astronomical, but his body didn't make any sense. The w- the shapes he was making didn't make any c- any sense. And- and I said, "You- you've forgotten something." And he said, "Well, I'm a mountain biker. I've had tons of crashes, but those are all the big ones." And I said, "No, you're missing something. Something doesn't make sense." And I turned my back to him to make the shape this, of the sick man I'd written on the board in the clinic, and- and the room went silent for the first time in 90 minutes, 'cause he was a lovely chatterbox. And I turned around and he was crying. And so I gave him a moment, and I said, "Okay, what did you just remember?" And he just remembered that he'd spent a year in a spine cast on crutches between the age of three and four, and he was still making that shape. So the body really does keep the score. We see it time and time again that people are maintaining the shape that preceded even the surgery, which contributes to why maybe somebody has a- a hip replacement and then has to have another hip replacement, replacing the replacement. Because they're still moving in the way that created the need for the hip replacement in the first place. The new hip doesn't make them still shy away from the opposite ankle-

  13. 1:41:31 – 1:53:09

    Technology that reveals reality: ‘Doris’ and why asymmetry (phones, watches) matters

    1. RC

      And what we, you know, it's, you've got this incredible machine. There's only three in the world, right?

    2. HH

      There's four now. One f-

    3. RC

      Are there four now?

    4. HH

      Yes, one in Belgium. Yes.

    5. RC

      Okay, so there's four. So Nike have one, I think you said.

    6. HH

      Yes.

    7. RC

      One in Germany. You've got one.

    8. HH

      Yes.

    9. RC

      And now this, this new one.

    10. HH

      Yes.

    11. RC

      It's the most incredible thing I've ever seen. Um-

    12. HH

      Doris

    13. RC

      ... Doris.

    14. HH

      [laughs]

    15. RC

      Your friend Doris. Uh, and you know, very simplistically, what does it tell us? Is, is it... I mean, I love looking at the, the shots afterwards, but what, what, what is it showing us?

    16. HH

      So with no more, uh, radiation than a light bulb, and more accurately than an X-ray, Doris can measure the movement in three dimensions of the vertebrae in the spine, uh, the pelvis, the limbs, the angles of the limbs, and the pressures through the feet, uh, as you move, both statically and as you move up to, 'cause she has limitations, even Doris, up to 30 kilometers an hour.

    17. RC

      Yeah. And do you know what's been so great is that you said the whole body's connected. I have seen with you on that machine change my wrist position when I walk, the fluidity in my movement. You can see the speed going up. You can see the, uh, the pressures in your feet change. Go back and put your wrists the other way. Think, "Oh, wow. Oh, actually, I think I know how I'm gonna have my wrists now when I w- [laughs] when I walk."

    18. HH

      Ex- exactly.

    19. RC

      'Cause, because I've just seen the difference and felt the difference. Um- I think, you know, Helen, if you're interested, we could probably do another podcast. Maybe we should take questions from people-

    20. HH

      [laughs]

    21. RC

      ... like, people like this, actually get them to send them in or actually... 'Cause I d- I feel there's very few people like you, um, and I feel your wisdom is so needed. Um, before we start wrapping it up today, um, you mentioned the number one issue for most people, not most people, for many people, is, you know, getting your head stacked over your shoulder, over your ribcage, over your pelvis, and your book and videos can obviously help people do that better. I always remember this, uh, I was asking you about people carrying phones, right? So this is common now. You see people running or walking with phones. Now, sometimes they're holding it in their hand whilst they're walking and running.

    22. HH

      Yeah.

    23. RC

      What advice have you got for people? Because you've seen in real time on Doris what happens when people actually do that, haven't you?

    24. HH

      Yes. Anything asymmetrical, anything on one side of the body, so one stick, one phone, one water bottle, it will affect your movement patterns, because everything is connected. So have two phones or two bottles or two sticks, or better still, put them in a pocket. Use a bum bag. The, the carrying of the phone dramatically changes the whole way you run. Janum discovered this yesterday. His right arm was doing something, and it was different and causing chaos in the rest of the limbs. As soon as it wasn't doing it, there was no chaos. End of chaos.

    25. RC

      He wasn't carrying a phone, was he?

    26. HH

      He wasn't carrying a phone.

    27. RC

      Ah, good to know.

    28. HH

      No.

    29. RC

      Good to know.

    30. HH

      He was-

  14. 1:53:09 – 1:54:55

    A simple daily practice: walking warm-up before running

    1. HH

      Walk before you run. It diverts the blood from the non-vital organs, the glands producing the hormones, and the intestines, to the working muscles. The boffins tell us it's probably the most effective way to limit injury risk. So, so many people shut the door and just start running. The blood you need in the working muscles isn't there yet. If we had enough blood to be around our entire body for any given job at any given time, we'd be a balloon. It's not there yet. Know it. The experts have done lots of experiments, I don't know how they do it. It takes between seven and 15 minutes to divert the blood. Seven is the minimum. So you can help yourself most easily by just walking briskly to divert the blood. Walk briskly enough that the central nervous system thinks, "Oh, something exciting's about to happen. I need to get some blood to those working muscles." I rule of thumb 10 minutes, and then run, and you'll probably find you enjoy it more, and you'll have a smile on your face. And then you'll be able to notice stuff because you'll be in a happy place.

    2. RC

      Thanks for coming on the show, Helen. I have so enjoyed talking to you. There's so much left unsaid, and hopefully we can sort out a second conversation in the near future.

    3. HH

      I'd love to. Thank you for having me, Rangan.

    4. RC

      If that conversation resonated with you, here is another incredibly powerful one that I really think you're going to enjoy. Give it a click and let me know what you think. And click here to download my super practical free breathing guides.

    5. SP

      Instead of looking at running for performance, running for miles, running for body shape, looking at running as a way to get into our innermost self

Episode duration: 1:54:56

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