For People Feeling Behind In Life - Do This Before 2025 Ends To Find Purpose & Meaning | Rick Rubin

Rick Rubin 0:00 We're in control of our own lives. We often don't realize we're in control, but we're in control of our own lives, and we can make different choices. And if the things in our life are not bringing us joy and happiness, if our career that we've devoted all of our lives to isn't bringing us joy, we can change them. If we decide our relationship is not the right relationship, we don't have to suffer in that relationship. We have our own power, and we can make a change, and it takes courage. Um, but it's in everyone's best interest for us to take care of ourselves. To be in a relationship or in a job where you're phoning it in because you think it's your responsibility to do the job, there's probably someone who would do that job with passion and bring more to it than you are. In your relationship, if you've fallen out of love and you're going through the motions, you're not doing anyone any favors. It's not real. And, um, and if you feel depressed and you can't manage the life you're in, you can go move to another part of the world. You can live on a beach. You know, you can, you can-- There are so many options available to us that we don't-- You know, we're stuck in our small story of who we are and what our lives are, and it's all a choice, and we have the power to change it. Anything, anything in our lives that doesn't give us joy, we can change, and we can find the version that, that suits us. And it's not only in service to us, it's ultimately what's best for everyone. You know, when you're on an airplane and they say, "If the plane's gonna go down, these, uh, masks are gonna fall down. Put your mask on first before you put on your child's or anyone else's," which is counterintuitive. We always think we take care of our children first. But if you're not taking care of yourself, you can't take care of anyone else. So I would say primarily take care of yourself first. If you want to save the world, save yourself, and then save your immediate family, and then save your immediate, uh, neighborhood, and then save your, you know, your, um, your town. S- Start with small circles and build out. Do you know Metta meditation?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:25 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 2:26 The Metta meditation is, uh, may I be filled with loving kindness, may I be well, may I be peaceful and at ease, may I be happy. We repeat these four phrases over and over again. And for the first year or so of doing it, it's may I. And then after a year of may I, we've built up a strong enough charge to say, may we, and the we might be your immediate family first. And you do that for another year and build up the power in that unit, and then you can extend it, and by the fifth year, you can do it for the planet. But you can't do it for the planet first because there's no built-up charge. So do what's necessary to take care of yourself. Build yourself up. Have the strongest charge possible that you could then share and make the world a better place. We can live in a way where we're living in an artful way, where we're, uh, engaged and paying attention and, um, making each choice count or we can live in a-- almost like sleepwalking through the day, which many, many of us do. Many of us do just go along.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 3:44 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 3:45 Just r- you know, repeat yesterday again. Um, and I suppose the principal argument of the book, although it didn't set out to be this way, [chuckles] is that, um, is that the way we choose to live in the world impacts our ability to, um, to make more beautiful things. It's, it's, um, it's less about the making and more the being, and through the being, the making is a, um-- it's like a reverberation of it. It's not, it's not the, it's not the primary-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 4:28 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 4:29 I didn't know that before starting the book, honestly. It, it came through the process of trying to understand how, uh, m- how decisions, um, have been made over the course of my life that yielded good results creatively. Um, and it, it revealed itself through the process of the book.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 4:56 I think it's very rare that I picked up a book that has resonated with me, I would say on a deep, visceral level, as quickly as yours has. I think it's maybe the time in my life, the way I'm experiencing it, what I'm looking for at the moment. But what really strikes me as interesting is on the surface, it kind of seems as though it's a book about art, but actually it seems more to me about being a book about how to live.

Rick Rubin 5:39 Yes. [chuckles] I would agree.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 5:43 You have been involved with the curating of many music albums over the course of your career, some of the most famous albums on the planet. What was it like working on a book compared to working on music?

Rick Rubin 6:00 Um, felt, felt very much out of my depth. Uh, with music, I've done it long enough where- Um, I have a sense-- I, I wanna say I have a sense of how it works, even though it's still this magic process that I, that we have no control over. But because of, you know, 35 or 40 years of doing it, uh, it's not a total unknown, whereas the book was much more of an unknown stepping into it. And I've never put out anything with my name on the front of it before. I'm always the, you know, I'm essentially an invisible coach. Sometimes people know about my involvement, but I'm a behind-the-scenes, uh, participant-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 6:44 Yeah

Rick Rubin 6:44 ... in the projects that I am in. This is the first time that it's actually me and I'm the person talking about it. Usually, the works that I work on, I rarely talk about them because the person whose name's on the front of the record talks about them. So it's been an interesting, different experience and, um, and, and finding words to explain something that I don't know can be explained and that I don't, I don't fully understand is difficult. [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 7:15 Yeah. That, that's where I think-

Rick Rubin 7:17 It's very evasive, you know. It's like what, what I-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 7:19 Yeah

Rick Rubin 7:19 ... I'm, I'm describing smoke, and it's hard to describe smoke. [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 7:25 I think that's where the magic for me in this book is. You-- I guess you're writing about an experience. You're writing about the way you have experienced art, the way you see art through your lens. You, you have possibly the best opening to any book ever.

Rick Rubin 7:45 Wow.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 7:45 "Nothing in this book is known to be true. It's a reflection on what I've noticed, not facts so much as thoughts." I love, love, love it-

Rick Rubin 7:56 [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 7:57 ... so, so much, and I think one of the reasons I like that opening so much is, you know, I've been a practicing medical doctor for 21 years now as we're having this conversation, Rick. And the more patients I see, the more people I'm able to help, the more I realize I don't actually know that much. And some of the best clinicians and doctors I've met also share the same view. Like-

Rick Rubin 8:27 Yes

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 8:27 ... you know, the more I know, the more I realize I just don't know, and I'm always-

Rick Rubin 8:30 Yes

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 8:30 ... open to be-- I'm always open to being surprised by something a patient tells me or something a patient experiences. And actually, I think there are so many similarities between art, the way you describe it in your book, and medicine, the way I like to practice it, which is, I think, what is drawing me to it so much.

Rick Rubin 8:52 That's beautiful. I didn't know that. And that's, um... That really lands with me in a great, in a great way. I hope there are more people in the medical field who have, have that feeling.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 9:11 You used the term invisible coach before-

Rick Rubin 9:13 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 9:13 ... which I think is a really beautiful way of thinking about certainly what I've read about you. I've consumed, as a fan, many of the albums you've been involved with. Some of them have played huge parts of my youth growing up at various times. And I was thinking, well, how can Rick can do hip-hop and rock and metal? A- and whatever genre, you are helping that artist to be themselves.

Rick Rubin 9:41 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 9:44 Now, how do you help an artist to be themselves if the artist themself doesn't know who they really are?

Rick Rubin 9:53 Sometimes they, they, uh, they often don't know who they are, and they often tell you who they are without knowing they're telling you who they are.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 10:02 Okay.

Rick Rubin 10:03 So through, through, really through conversation, um, I, I imagine very similar to-- do you, do you spend-- when you, when you get a new patient, do you spend time talking to them?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 10:14 Absolutely.

Rick Rubin 10:15 Okay. And I imagine they tell you things that, uh, light up for you as, "Okay, I know what's going on here."

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 10:25 100%, yeah.

Rick Rubin 10:25 Yet when they're telling it to you, they have no idea.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 10:28 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 10:28 It's exactly the same. It's exactly the same. If I-- if you really listen, people tell you what they need, what they want, what their dreams are, and they'll tell you, "I don't know what I want. I don't know what my dreams are. I don't know who I am." And then they tell you exactly, "This is who I am. This is what my dreams are." [laughs] But it-- but they're, um... It's almost like sometimes we're too close, we're too close to be able to see ourselves. It's very difficult to see ourselves.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 10:58 It's funny, just a few hours ago, I had a conversation with a chap called Bruce Lipton-

Rick Rubin 11:02 Mm-hmm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 11:03 ... who wrote the book The Biology of Belief.

Rick Rubin 11:05 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 11:06 And it was a wonderful conversation, and Bruce talks about the conscious mind and the subconscious mind and how 95% of our lives are driven by our subconscious patterns. But what really connects with what you were just saying there is we were talking about how we can see those patterns in other people very clearly.

Rick Rubin 11:29 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 11:29 We can see it in our partner-

Rick Rubin 11:30 Yes

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 11:30 ... in our children, in our friends. "You're just like your mom. You're just like your dad."

Rick Rubin 11:33 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 11:33 But it's not so easy to see it ourselves, is it?

Rick Rubin 11:36 No. No, it's too close. And same, same goes in, in working on things. It's, um, when we're creating something, we, we can get into it to a point of tunnel vision to where through the singular focus of working on it, we lose perspective on what it actually is. Um, so it's something that, that's help- that artists-- an artist who writes their own material might find helpful to have someone like me to bounce it off of. Th- they, they might be too close to it to truly see what it is.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 12:18 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 12:20 Um, and it, and it's helpful to have someone say, "When I, when I read these lyrics, this makes me feel this. Is that what you're... Is that..." And sometimes they'll say, "No, not at all. Not at all." N- not only, "No, not at all," but, "If that's what you got from it, I have to change it."

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 12:36 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 12:38 And other times it'll be, "Yes, that's exactly what it means. That's what I want it to be." And sometimes it's, "No, that's not what it means, but it doesn't- but that's fine too."

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 12:47 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 12:47 You know, it's, it, it really, uh, each case depends on, um, there's no right or wrong in any, in any of these art decisions. Um, it's just helpful to have a, an outside source mirroring back what's going on, and it either resonates or not.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 13:09 Did you have an invisible coach to help you with your work in this book? Because it sounds like that's what you offer to other people. Because as you just bea- beautifully said, we, we can get too close to the work.

Rick Rubin 13:24 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 13:25 Um, so did you have people around you to help you maintain that perspective and distance?

Rick Rubin 13:30 Absolutely. I had people helping along the way in, in different capacities. Um, ultimately at the end of the project, Scott, who's the editor at Penguin Press in New York, was really helpful in the final touches of what worked and what didn't.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 13:47 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 13:48 Um, but all through the process, I started working with one writer and then working with another. I, I ended up working with many people over the course of the seven years of working on the book, and it went through lots of, um, changes and iterations on the way to get where, where it is. But it, it really helps to have, have, uh, people who know more than you do about the thing [laughs] that you're working on help. Has that been your experience with books? How, how's, how's it worked?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 14:28 Yeah. Um, 100%. Like, initially... Like, I've written five books now, okay?

Rick Rubin 14:36 Wow.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 14:38 And the funny thing is, well, a couple of things come up for me as I say that. If you'd asked me seven years ago-

Rick Rubin 14:46 Mm-hmm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 14:46 ... "Do you have a book in you?" I might have said, "Yeah, I think I've got one. I think I've got one book in me."

Rick Rubin 14:53 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 14:54 And what I've learnt through this process of writing a book a year for the past five years-

Rick Rubin 14:59 Can't imagine that. [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 15:00 Well, you say that, but you've g- I guess-

Rick Rubin 15:02 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 15:02 ... you've done that in your field, in music, right?

Rick Rubin 15:04 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 15:04 You've probably helped. So it's, I guess whenever it's in a different field, we, we see it differently.

Rick Rubin 15:09 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 15:10 But-- And I wanna talk about deadlines and all kinds of things 'cause it all sort of plays in. Um, but I, I've come to the belief that humans are infinitely creative-

Rick Rubin 15:21 Yes

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 15:21 ... and that when I finish one book, and I've, it's gone off to print, and I've done a round of interviews on it, I feel like I've, I've solidified those thoughts.

Rick Rubin 15:34 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 15:34 I've shared them in the world, and then I've emptied the space in my brain for-

Rick Rubin 15:39 Next

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 15:40 ... new ideas to come in.

Rick Rubin 15:41 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 15:41 And then I'm suddenly seeing new ideas-

Rick Rubin 15:43 Fantastic

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 15:43 ... everywhere. But if you'd asked me a few years ago, I'd have said, "No, I can't. I've just got one. I've, I've got nothing else to share." But in terms of your question, Rick, one of the things I've learnt, I remember the first time I sent an edit into Penguin. I thought, "Yeah, I'm happy with this," and they came back with all these comments. Um, not clear, this, that. And initially I think I found it hard.

Rick Rubin 16:06 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 16:07 And that's probably an ego thing.

Rick Rubin 16:09 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 16:09 And what I've learnt over the last few years is that, you know, these edits are great. They're absolutely fantastic. You don't have to agree with them all. But don't be attached to your idea too much. Just listen to what people have to say, then really tune in and go, "Actually, do you agree? Is it helpful?" So I've had a, I've had a love-hate relationship with feedback.

Rick Rubin 16:33 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 16:33 I think it's, I think it's in a good place now, but I think the problems I initially faced, if I'm honest, and I do have a tendency to be a bit self-critical-

Rick Rubin 16:41 Mm-hmm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 16:42 ... but I think they were to do with ego.

Rick Rubin 16:43 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 16:45 What is it like for you when you receive comments about some of the work that you've worked on or some of the words that you've written?

Rick Rubin 16:52 Um, I'm open to hearing them, and, um, it, it l- in, in every case, it seemed to lead to it getting better.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 17:01 Yeah. I would agree with that. 'Cause even if you don't necessarily agree-

Rick Rubin 17:07 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 17:08 ... even the thought process and going, "Why don't I agree? Well, oh yeah, but actually there's an element of truth there which resonates."

Rick Rubin 17:16 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 17:16 So I... A- and there's a big theme in the book is you talk about art being collaborative.

Rick Rubin 17:21 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 17:23 But you must have come across ego, I imagine, in your career. Have you come across ego, and how have you managed it?

Rick Rubin 17:32 Um, absolutely. I think part of the secret of collaborating with someone who's, uh, has an inflated ego, which is, comes along with the territory of, you know, if you go on stage in front of 20,000 people screaming for you every day-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 17:51 Yeah

Rick Rubin 17:52 ... you can, that can fill you up. [laughs] Um, I think a lot of, uh, having critical, serious critical conversations has to do with taking the person out of it. And, um, we talk about it in the book. The, the more the comments or the more specific and, um, external they are- So we're talking about a song. If I say, "Your words aren't good enough," that's really a personal affront.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 18:29 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 18:30 But if we have the lyrics out here, we're looking at the lyrics together, and the idea is together we're gonna look at this and see is there anything that either of us can see that can make this better, it's different.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 18:42 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 18:42 It's like we move it and, and we get very specific, and it's not your lyrics, it's these lyrics. You know, we have these lyrics here. Um, or, or whatever it is. The, the more that it's outside of us, if someone tells you an idea and you say, "I don't like that idea," that's personal, that's personal.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 19:05 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 19:06 But if someone makes a model of something and you say, "Well, I like this, but I don't like this," you're, you're p- you're talking about a model. You're not talking about the person. And by the way, none of it's personal. That's, that's the important part-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 19:17 Yeah

Rick Rubin 19:18 ... is making it clear we're working together for the best thing to occur, and none of it's personal. We're on the same team, and we're working together on behalf of this outside object.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 19:31 Yeah. That same principle applies in relationships as, as well as making art, doesn't it? If it's not personal, if it's just about the thought or, um, the thing that you're discussing and you can make it non-personal-

Rick Rubin 19:47 Mm-hmm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 19:48 ... it's gonna have a much more productive outcome.

Rick Rubin 19:51 Even with ourselves.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 19:52 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 19:52 You know, how we, how we speak to ourselves.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 19:56 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 19:57 I remember when I, um, I was sedentary most of my life, and I w- weighed, uh, 100 pounds more than I do now. And when I first, um, met this, uh, group of athletes who invited me to train with them, which was radical, I'd lost a bunch of weight and they invited me to train with them. Um, I remember they showed me an exercise and I said, "I can't do that." And they say, "No, never say you can't do it. Say, 'I haven't done it yet.'" I haven't done it yet, and that's true with everything. It's like there's nothing that you can't do. You may not have done it yet. We don't know if you can do it or not until you really practice and then you find out if you can do it or not, or how well you can do it.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 20:38 Yeah. I wanna talk later on in this conversation about your physical transformation because I-

Rick Rubin 20:44 Mm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 20:45 ... uh, I think it's incredibly fascinating. Um, there's so many different strands and elements to it.

Rick Rubin 20:50 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 20:53 The way we talk to ourselves, which you've just hinted at there, there, there was a bit in the book where you were talking about feeling insecure, um, maybe doubting yourself versus doubting-

Rick Rubin 21:06 The material

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 21:06 ... the work.

Rick Rubin 21:07 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 21:07 Yeah, which I thought was a, a beautiful distinction. And then, then you wrote this gorgeous bit, which is basically, "Insecurity is only a hindrance when it stops you sharing what's in your heart."

Rick Rubin 21:20 Wow, that's beautiful. [laughs] It's funny, I, I told you, I don't really know what's in the book because over seven years, all the information came out, but it's not, it's, even when I was working on it, it's not things that I necessarily know.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 21:33 Yeah. It, it is beautiful and-

Rick Rubin 21:36 Beautiful

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 21:36 ... it's one of those phrases I've underlined, I've written it in my notebook, because I feel at this moment in my life, Rick, I think about that a lot. I think about art. I think about the expression of ideas. And once you start trying to do something for an outcome-

Rick Rubin 22:01 Yes

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 22:03 ... I think I've experienced in the past that that's where the problems start to rise. You start to fracture the core of who you are, and I think you can be successful by a societal metric of success, but in the process, a part of you starts to wither inside.

Rick Rubin 22:24 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 22:25 Uh, so I, I think that is so, so powerful. And as I researched you, Rick, that one of the big ideas that comes up is that you talk about how you can't make art if you're thinking about the outcome or you're thinking about business, or you're thinking about how many copies it's gonna sell, or what are the audience going to think.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 22:46 Have you always had that perspective on art, or is that something you've developed through experience?

Rick Rubin 22:51 I've always had it, and, um, it, it, I think it's because it started as a hobby, and I never, uh, in a way, I never took it seriously. In one way, I took it more serious than anything else in terms of the making of the art, but ne- I never took it seriously in terms of it being a commercial thing, ever, at any point. From the beginning, it was always, you know, the hope was that it would sell enough to be able to make another one. That's all it ever was, was v- v- you know, very, um, meager expectations. I always thought I'd have a real job, and then I would make music because that's what I love to do. And I thought I would, well, I have a job and that would support my music habit. I n- I never understood that it could be, I didn't even know it could be a job.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 23:37 Do you consider it a real job now?

Rick Rubin 23:39 Yes and no. I mean, it, I, I, it, it has worked out that I haven't had to do anything else, so I guess-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 23:45 Yeah

Rick Rubin 23:45 ... and I, and I have an incredibly beautiful life. Um, and I suppose based on the fact that I have a schedule and I'm obligated to show up-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 23:59 Yeah

Rick Rubin 23:59 ... so I have commitments, it is a job.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 24:01 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 24:02 That said, when I'm there, there's nothing more fun than seeing something appear that wasn't there before.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 24:10 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 24:11 And, um, the w- the wonder of it, because again, I, I don't feel in control of the process. Uh, I don't think anyone has control of the process. I think there's truly magic going on. We can set the stage to best support it to happen.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 24:27 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 24:27 But we can't make it happen. And, um, it's, it's, uh, it's, it's thrilling when it does. And, and I'm, and I also, you know, one of the things I say in the book is the audience comes last. And the audience comes last not because I don't care about them or I don't like the audience. In, in service to the audience, they have to come last.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 24:49 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 24:49 The, I, the thing that the audience wants is the best thing they can get. If we're, if we're trying to make it for them, it won't be the best thing it can get. W- it'll water it down. W- it'll un- the process of making something for someone else undermines it.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 25:06 This is something I've learnt through doing this podcast, actually, and I mean, there's so much that I've learnt in the last four and a half, nearly five years of putting this show out. But one of the things I've deeply, deeply learnt is that I will choose every guest, and I will choose it based on my curiosity. And I remember talking to my team about this a few months ago. I said, "Look, people are wanting this, people are wanting that, people want this guest." And I take that very seriously. It's not that I'm disregarding that.

Rick Rubin 25:48 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 25:50 But if I'm gonna be truly authentic and true to myself, and therefore true to them, I've learnt that actually, no Rangan, you have to almost selfishly choose the guests-

Rick Rubin 26:01 Yes

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 26:02 ... that excite you, that awaken something inside of you, that you passionately want to sit there for two hours with and go deep with. Because otherwise the audience will f- will hear it.

Rick Rubin 26:13 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 26:13 If you've just rolled it out, you've got the right guest, you've said the right things. And I remember saying on a podcast a few years ago when I was the guest on someone else's show, and it just came out of me, I said, "Although I'm a medical doctor and people consider this a health podcast in many ways," which I think is very limiting anyway.

Rick Rubin 26:32 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 26:33 Um, my podcast is not an information delivery system. It's about authenticity. If I can connect with my guest, that's all I'm looking for is a deep connection, and any information, any helpful information, will kind of spit out as a side effect of that connection.

Rick Rubin 26:52 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 26:53 And I don't think I recognized that when I started podcasting, but the more I've, uh, worked on and hopefully got better at the skill of it, I passionately believe that that's the case.

Rick Rubin 27:07 It sounds right. It sounds right. And, um, and it's been the case that people like what you're doing, so it's a good sign.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 27:15 Do you always know in the moment when you're in a studio with a band or solo artist and something magical's happening, do you always know in the moment?

Rick Rubin 27:24 Not always.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 27:25 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 27:26 No, not always. Just had an interesting experience, tell you about it. Um, just before coming to Europe, I was in, uh, Malibu for a few weeks, and I made a new album with th- Neil Young.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 27:39 Wow.

Rick Rubin 27:39 Neil Young and Crazy Horse. And it was unlike any experience I've ever had before in the recording studio, and I've had a lot of experiences in the recording studio. But this was really unusual. And, um, I don't know how much you know about Crazy Horse, but Neil has played with Crazy Horse for 50 years.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 27:56 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 27:56 The band, the band members are all turning 80 next year.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 27:59 Wow.

Rick Rubin 27:59 But Neil is not, uh, I think Neil will be, I think Neil's 76 or 77. Not sure. Um, but the band members all turn 80. And they're not, um, like studio musicians. They're not like crack musicians. They have a sound that's their sound, and it's couldn't be more authentic. It's, they, they, when they play, it sounds like them.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 28:27 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 28:27 Um, but in terms of like learning the material, it doesn't just happen instantaneously. Like studio musicians barely even need to hear it and they can play it-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 28:37 Yeah

Rick Rubin 28:37 ... and it's perfect. That, that's not the case with, with Crazy Horse. And we played through songs for the first week, and I will say it was rough. Uh, rough to the point of not only did we not get the recordings that, that, um, w- were the, the basis of a great album, but it was a question of whether they would ever be able to play the songs. That's how- [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 29:07 Wow

Rick Rubin 29:07 ... how far off it seemed. And, um, and we, so the first week is a slow week and, but they play through all the songs, as I say, poorly, but we, [laughs] but we get through the week, and I'm thinking, "Okay, maybe next week, now that they've played them one time, when we come back, it's gonna be better the next time." And, uh, and Neil suggests what song to start with on the next Monday. We're back fresh, new week, and, um, and the drummer Ralph said, "Well, we already played that one." And, uh, and it, and it was a remarkable moment because, [laughs] um, they did play it, but it was, uh, i- in a, in a, in a very, um, unclear form.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 29:58 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 29:59 And then we spent the next week playing the songs again, and, um, most of them did not get better. In some cases, they got worse. And it was f- again, fascinating. And then Neil suggested, "You know, let's listen back to the songs from that first week," which in the moment seemed nowhere near close. And we listened through, and then it's like, "Well, this moment is really good. And if this part didn't have this mistake- ... we don't know. Like, the distract- the mistake is a distract-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 30:36 Yeah

Rick Rubin 30:36 ... distracts us to think it's no good, but it's really this mistake. Let's repair the mistake. And we kind of went through it and did v- not much, and then listened back. It's like, "Hmm, it's much better than we [laughs] thought." And i- and now the album, the album's done. I think it's b- beautiful. I love it.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 31:00 Mm.

Rick Rubin 31:00 I, I really love it, and Neil loves it and knows it's special. And, um, and I think pretty much every one of the tracks was recorded in that first week, when at the moment it seemed like, I don't know if they'll ever be able to play these.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 31:14 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 31:15 It, it's unbelievable.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 31:18 It's incredible to hear that, especially with such an experienced producer and experienced band.

Rick Rubin 31:24 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 31:24 Um, I wonder what that is. Is it a bit like, I'm sure you went through this through the writing process, when you've written a chapter and yeah, it's, you're not sure. "Ah, I don't know." And then when you read a few paragraphs, thought, "Ah, I- I'm not sure I'm getting my idea out there the way I want it to. Is it clear enough?" And then-

Rick Rubin 31:44 Mm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 31:44 ... you just remove one sentence-

Rick Rubin 31:47 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 31:47 ... or you just remove one from this paragraph, one from that paragraph, and then, oh, now it's singing. Now it's humming.

Rick Rubin 31:52 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 31:52 Now it's purring beautifully.

Rick Rubin 31:54 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 31:55 Is it a bit like that, I guess?

Rick Rubin 31:56 Absolutely. You can, yeah, sometimes removing the distractions, it falls into place. A- and, and I can also say the opposite is true in the studio where we'll be working and trudging along, and it seems mediocre, and then all of a sudden it gets good, and everyone looks at each other like, "Something's happening."

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 32:14 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 32:15 You know? And we, you feel it in the moment. That, that's actually more common-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 32:19 Yeah

Rick Rubin 32:19 ... the feeling it in the moment and recognizing something special is happening. Um, but this was a really interesting case 'cause it was the furthest extreme in the opposite direction that I've ever experienced.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 32:30 Yeah, and, and what's interesting for me, uh, as someone hearing that story is you're constantly being surprised. All your years of experience and knowledge-

Rick Rubin 32:43 Mm-hmm, mm-hmm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 32:44 ... and then even, even you are getting surprised. [laughs]

Rick Rubin 32:47 All, all the time. Uh, uh, daily. I'm surprised daily.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 32:50 Yeah. And there's a, there's another quote I was gonna talk to you about, which, um, I know they brought up when you were chatting about writing the book, 'cause you said, I think you were talking about essentially it being out of your comfort zone. It was unusual for you to be writing yourself, putting your name on the front. And, and again, I, I, maybe 'cause I just started writing book six at the moment, um, but I love this. "Beware of the assumption that the way you work is the best way simply because it's the way you've done it before."

Rick Rubin 33:20 You've done it before, yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 33:20 Beautiful.

Rick Rubin 33:21 Yeah. Yeah, there is no right way, and, um, sometimes when we do something and find success in the way we've done it, we think that's the way it works.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 33:32 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 33:33 But it's rarely the only way, and that, and it could quickly become a limiting belief, uh, if you start making things that all start seeming very similar.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 33:44 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 33:45 So opening it up to trying a completely different way, using a different palette, um, collaborating with different people. Um, there's so, you know, so many different ways in. Being open to, if you're a rock band, maybe the acoustic version is interesting, you know? We don't-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 34:07 Yeah

Rick Rubin 34:07 ... if you, if you're used to playing loud, you don't think the quiet version could be good, but you never know. It's like, let's, let's turn over all the stones. Let's see what's possible.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 34:16 There's another similarity here between art and medicine, and well, I guess my view on medicine more and more is that for most of the cases I see, helping a patient to get better, whatever that means-

Rick Rubin 34:36 Yes

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 34:37 ... I'm convinced now more than ever that it's more art than science.

Rick Rubin 34:40 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 34:42 I understand for a, a very acute case-

Rick Rubin 34:44 Yes

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 34:44 ... um, or, you know, you, you need a, a heart operation, like I know you've spoken about publicly before-

Rick Rubin 34:49 Yes

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 34:49 ... you need a super skilled surgeon who-

Rick Rubin 34:51 Yes

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 34:51 ... can go in and do what's necessary. I understand that. But for the bulk of things that people are complaining of these days, I think the job of a healthcare professional or a medical doctor like myself is to be like you are to your artists, an invisible coach, right? Reflect back to them. Help them realize that they've got more autonomy, more control, more influence on their health than they think.

Rick Rubin 35:19 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 35:20 But also realize, like what you just said, that there is no one right way.

Rick Rubin 35:24 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 35:24 Like, I can see 10 different people with symptoms of, in inverted commas, depression.

Rick Rubin 35:29 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 35:31 And there may well be 10 different ways-

Rick Rubin 35:34 Yes

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 35:35 ... to help those 10 people, and actually the same person, you may be able to get them better in five different ways.

Rick Rubin 35:43 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 35:44 So I, it's funny, you know, uh, the, the book, it ain't just about making records. It's not about writing books. It's also about seeing patients. It's about, I think you say somewhere that it's about, you know, art and creativity is actually about the way we experience life, and that's why [laughs] I think it is so magical because these are little bits of timeless wisdom that in many ways you've written through the lens of music, but actually are applicable to everything.

Rick Rubin 36:21 I hope so. Uh, uh, I hoped to write the book in an open enough way where, and I think the nature of the principles that, that are discussed are not about music.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 36:32 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 36:34 While I view them as being about art, it is true we can live in an artful way, and it'll be better than if we don't, regardless of what it is we're doing.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 36:45 Are we all artists?

Rick Rubin 36:47 We all, we all are artists. The question is, is are we a better artist today than we were yesterday, and are we doing everything we can to be the best artist we can be tomorrow? And it's, it's, uh, we're all art. We may not all be Da Vinci, but are, are we better than we were, and can we continue to become better and better and better? And it's an ongoing iterative process over the course of our lives.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 37:17 Creativity, of course, is a huge part of art, and I was thinking about this this morning when sort of reflecting that we were gonna have a, a conversation today. I was thinking, well, if, if life is art and creativity is an expression or something we have to tap into to express our art, then maybe the way we are with our children, the way we are with our partners, that's creativity as well. That's-

Rick Rubin 37:48 Absolutely.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 37:49 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 37:49 Absolutely. A- all of it. And how we are with ourselves. Again, it's all, it's all of those things. Um, anything we do to... If we're dealing with some, uh, some issue, and if we decide to take a pill for that issue or decide to make a creative change in our life that allows the issue to resolve itself, that's a creative choice. And, um, it seems like in terms of the sustainability of being able to do these things for a long time, maybe the taking the pill version isn't the best way to solve our issues. How often, uh, as a physician, how often do you recommend a lifestyle change versus a pharmaceutical?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 38:47 I mean, pretty much 99% of the time, if not 100% these days.

Rick Rubin 38:52 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 38:52 This is what my entire career, and certainly with patients but also my public-facing career, this is what it's all about-

Rick Rubin 39:00 Mm-hmm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 39:00 ... is to help people realize actually the majority of what we're struggling with today is a result of our collective modern lifestyles. And I say that very-

Rick Rubin 39:12 Yes

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 39:13 ... carefully. I'm not blaming people.

Rick Rubin 39:15 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 39:16 It's our collective modern lifestyles.

Rick Rubin 39:18 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 39:20 And actually, I believe this book, now I think about it, you can make a g- you can make a case that this is a health book.

Rick Rubin 39:28 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 39:28 Because if art is an authentic expression of who we are and we're gonna do that irrespective of the outcome, irrespective of what people are gonna think, if it's truly about authenticity, then I can categorically say with certainty that people living inauthentic lives results in so many of the problems that I see. Simple one, like if you are not living, uh, in alignment with your values, with that disconnect in who you are, with that fracture that's opened up in the core of who you are, you will put things in that void. Sugar, alcohol-

Rick Rubin 40:17 Mm-hmm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 40:17 ... whatever it might be-

Rick Rubin 40:19 Mm-hmm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 40:19 ... it's often trying to fill the void of inauthenticity.

Rick Rubin 40:22 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 40:22 So the book, I feel, is, is helping people live a meaningful, more authentic life with some simple but very, very timeless and apt truths. So I would have thought if people absorb them and live their lives by them, that it will also help improve their health.

Rick Rubin 40:43 Absolutely. I'll tell you a story. I, I, um, I used to live in, um, artist hours, where mu- musical artist hours. So I would sleep until typically noon, although it could be as late as 3:00, and then I would not leave the house until the sun set, and then I would work in the studio all night long and usually drive home as the sun was rising. That was my normal schedule for years and years and years. Even back to high school, I missed the first three classes of high school, um, for the last two years of high school pretty consistently because I was already training this late night, night owl schedule, which just felt, it felt natural to me, and it was-- It seemed the way other people who were interested in the things that I was interested did the same. And, um, I worked with a performance coach named Phil Maffetone, who... And this was, um, let's say 20 years ago.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 41:45 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 41:47 And the first thing he said is, as s- And I used to sleep with these blackout blinds. And he said, "The, the first thing I want you to do is as soon as you wake up, open the blinds and go outside, preferably naked, but at least as much of your body in the sun as possible the minute you wake up."

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 42:05 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 42:06 And he had me start doing that, and at this time, I was waking up at noon, and I started doing that and, and very quickly, I started waking up earlier and earlier and earlier and earlier. It happened completely naturally. Um, when he suggested it to me, what I heard-- So he said, "I want you to go outside in the sun as s- the minute you wake up." What I heard was, "I want you to jump off a cliff." That's how r- that's how radical and terrifying-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 42:35 Wow

Rick Rubin 42:35 ... it sounded compared to how my experience of what, what, uh- What safe and comfort in life was, was not that. And, um, that was the first, like, getting in tune with the planet, I didn't- it was something I didn't know about. I didn't know about that. So in terms of being your authentic self, also being your, your authentic animal on this planet, there are certain, um, f- n- f- uh, his- historically, uh, on a DNA level-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 43:15 Yeah

Rick Rubin 43:15 ... there are things that our bodies like, and in our modern world we don't take those into consideration.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 43:23 Evolutionary truths, I guess.

Rick Rubin 43:25 Absolutely.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 43:26 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 43:26 And now I do as much as I can to live by the, um, you know, the way people lived 1,000 years ago as possible, or 10,000 or 100,000.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 43:36 Yeah. I'm familiar with Phil Maffetone's work. Um, I think it's great. I hope to get in touch with Phil at some point and have him-

Rick Rubin 43:45 Yes

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 43:46 ... on the show. I'd love to talk to him.

Rick Rubin 43:47 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 43:48 Um,

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 43:50 you have in a previous interview described your weight loss journey-

Rick Rubin 43:54 Mm-hmm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 43:54 ... as creative. Don't know if you recall that or not or-

Rick Rubin 43:58 I don't

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 43:59 ... I can't remember the context, but-

Rick Rubin 44:00 I don't, but that's interesting.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 44:02 Yeah. I found that really interesting-

Rick Rubin 44:03 Mm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 44:03 ... so I thought, wow. I'm trying to broaden the lens on art and creativity through, you know, really reading your book has... It's been, it's for- it's, it's not forced me, it's encouraged me down a path of introspection about what does art really mean.

Rick Rubin 44:20 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 44:21 And I found it so interesting hearing you, Rick, say that. I thought weight loss is creative. Do you have any idea what you might have meant by that?

Rick Rubin 44:31 I'm not sure.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 44:32 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 44:32 I'm not sure. I can tell you about the experience though. It was an interesting, um-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 44:35 Yeah, please do

Rick Rubin 44:36 ... I was overweight my entire life. My mom was obese, and towards the end of her life was in a, a wheelchair due to her obesity. I'd been dieting and, uh, I went to Weight Watchers with my mom when I was a kid. I'd tried every fad diet along the way, and nothing seemed to change. And, um, and then finally I, I, I was at, at this breaking point when I, when I reached out to Phil. I read a book by a guy named Stu Middleman who ran 1,000 miles in 11 days, and I was thinking, I can't, you know, walk to the end of the block.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 45:19 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 45:20 And it's... A- and, and another human being can run 1,000 miles in 11 days, so there's... I have bad information.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 45:28 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 45:28 You know, like, I'm doing something wrong. And, um, and in, in Stu's book he talked about Phil, and that's how he was able to do this crazy thing. And okay, I have to meet this guy Phil. He kn- he has the answers.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 45:40 [laughs]

Rick Rubin 45:41 And I met with Phil, and I met with Phil several times, then he eventually ended up moving into my house and we lived together for two years. And I did everything he said, and my health improved radically, and my, um, my vitality turned back on from-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 45:59 Mm

Rick Rubin 45:59 ... essentially being off from a life of sedentary... Um, I was also vegan for 20-something years, which really, uh, created havoc in my body. It was not, it was not right for me.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 46:11 Why were you a vegan, for ethical reasons or for health reasons?

Rick Rubin 46:14 Combination. Combination. Um, it started... I gave up, originally in college I gave up, uh, Co- Coca-Cola, Pepsi-Cola first. Then gave up red meat. And I, I did those things, I would say, thinking that it was health, beliefs about health. Um, and I got down to the point where I was, uh, I wasn't using any caffeine, I was drinking, uh, only water, and I was eating chicken and vegetables at that point in time. And, uh, and then I moved to California and a friend gave me a book called Diet for a New America, which is a, a, a book about veganism essentially. And he said, "If you read this book, you're not gonna wanna eat chicken anymore," because it talked about the horrors of-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 47:11 Yeah

Rick Rubin 47:11 ... industrial meat. And I thought, "Well, if I give up chicken, I'm gonna die, because all I'm eating now is chicken and vegetables, so I can't do that." Um, and I thought at that time, "Before I read the book, I'm gonna experiment and see how long I can go without eating chicken." And, um, and then I ended up not eating chicken again for 20-some odd years, and just ended up eating vegetables and a lot of, uh, processed vegan food, which was, it turns out, not very healthy.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 47:42 Yeah. Wow.

Rick Rubin 47:42 Or at least not healthy for me. A- a- or I can only speak to my experience, but my experience was... And, and I will say, most of the vegans I kn- I knew didn't look very healthy either.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 47:53 How, how heavy were you at your heaviest?

Rick Rubin 47:56 Um, 318 pounds, but I don't know what that is in kilograms.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 48:00 Yeah. Okay. Okay, 318 pounds, and then you start working with Phil.

Rick Rubin 48:07 Start working with Phil. Did everything he said. My hours changed. I got in tune with the planet. Um, I was able to do stairs and walk long distances without, um, dying. [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 48:20 Was he doing the heart rate-

Rick Rubin 48:21 Yes

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 48:22 ... stuff with you?

Rick Rubin 48:22 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 48:22 So he gave you your heart rate-

Rick Rubin 48:24 Yes

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 48:24 ... and said, "I want you to move your body but not go above this specific heart rate."

Rick Rubin 48:28 Yes. Low, uh, aerobic heart, heart rate zone.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 48:32 Yeah. He, he has a formula, doesn't he? Like, 180 minus your age-

Rick Rubin 48:36 Yes

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 48:36 ... and then you can vary it-

Rick Rubin 48:37 Plus or minus

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 48:38 ... plus or minus five-

Rick Rubin 48:39 Based on certain things

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 48:40 ... or 10.

Rick Rubin 48:40 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 48:40 Yeah, exactly. So- But when you were asked to do that-

Rick Rubin 48:44 Yes

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 48:44 ... so you can, you know, get walking or going upstairs, but your heart rate can't go above a certain number that he gave you-

Rick Rubin 48:50 Well, you wanna keep your heart rate-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 48:52 At-

Rick Rubin 48:52 ... right at that number-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 48:53 Okay

Rick Rubin 48:53 ... as close as you can get. If you're walking slowly and you're not getting to that number, you're not doing it. You, you wanna be as close-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 49:01 Close

Rick Rubin 49:01 ... to the target number as possible for as long as you can.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 49:04 So you'd wear a heart rate monitor?

Rick Rubin 49:05 Absolutely.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 49:06 And you'd literally be out walking and checking.

Rick Rubin 49:09 Either out when... At this point in time, I lived in Los Angeles, so out walking's not so easy-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 49:13 [laughs]

Rick Rubin 49:13 ... 'cause the hills make it nearly impossible. Um, so I w- I had a treadmill, and I did it on a treadmill at that point in time.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 49:20 So he changes your circadian rhythm by getting you to see natural light in the morning-

Rick Rubin 49:26 Yes

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 49:26 ... which is in tune with your evolutionary biology and-

Rick Rubin 49:29 Yes

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 49:30 ... your heritage.

Rick Rubin 49:30 Yes. And vitamin D and, um, uh, the ultraviolet. I, I got all the benefits of being in the sun in addition to getting on the, on the, um, on the right schedule.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 49:45 Yeah. And did he make changes to your diet?

Rick Rubin 49:49 Absolutely. He cha-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 49:50 Yeah

Rick Rubin 49:50 ... he wanted me to eat meat. He wanted me to eat everything, um, other than carbs, which at that time I wasn't able to do because I was still a vegan. So he had me add fish and eggs as the minimal of what I could do, and, and I ate them both. Not, I never liked fish. Growing up, I didn't eat fish, and eggs was never something I liked. And, um, and he said, "Regardless whether you like them or not, this is medicine. You take it as medicine. Think of it as medicine. You need animal protein." And I had the, I added the animal protein. I cut all soy. I cut nuts. I cut, I cut, I cut a lot of things. And, um, I got much healthier, and I did, did not lose weight. I lost maybe five or 10 pounds over the two years that we worked together.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 50:51 And you stuck to the advice and-

Rick Rubin 50:52 Absolutely. He was with me, and he said at the end of it, he said, he said, "99 out of 100 people who've done what you did, all their weight would fall off. For some reason, it hasn't with you." And then I thought, "Well, my mom's obese. It's just a genetic thing. This is what it is."

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 51:07 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 51:07 But at least I'm healthy now. You know, at least... And, and I felt very healthy.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 51:10 I think there's an interesting lesson there. So you radically transform your lifestyle. I guess the goal initially was weight loss.

Rick Rubin 51:17 It was.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 51:18 So the goal was weight loss, and although you didn't really get or meet your goal-

Rick Rubin 51:24 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 51:24 ... I'm sure you wanted more than five or 10 pounds-

Rick Rubin 51:26 Yes, yes, yes

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 51:27 ... uh, you got all these unexpected benefits.

Rick Rubin 51:31 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 51:32 Um, can you remember what they were? It was like energy or-

Rick Rubin 51:35 Yeah, yeah, I felt great. I felt great.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 51:37 Better than you felt before?

Rick Rubin 51:38 Oh, absolutely. So much better.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 51:40 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 51:41 So much better. So much better in so many ways. And then so that, so now I'm a healthy heavy person.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 51:49 [laughs]

Rick Rubin 51:50 And that went on for years. And then I was suggested to go to see a nutritionist by, I have, had a mentor, he just passed away maybe three weeks ago, named Mo Ostin. Beautiful man. He was, he worked for Frank Sinatra.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 52:03 Oh.

Rick Rubin 52:04 And he signed Jimi Hendrix, and he signed the Sex Pistols, and he was a, a really, uh, one of the most beautiful people ever in the music business. And I went out to lunch with him one day, and he said, "You know, I'm really getting worried about you. I know that you, you swim every day and you watch what you eat," 'cause I did. "But you're really getting big, and I'm concerned. And I'm gonna get the name of a nutritionist. I want you to go to my nutritionist and do whatever he said, whatever he says." And I said, "Okay, I'll do it," knowing it's not gonna work 'cause again, I've been diligent my whole life in wanting to lose weight and nothing has worked, so I'm assuming nothing will work. But I go along with it because I like Mo and, um, I'll, I'll do anything he asks me to do. And I went to see his guy, and he put me on, um, egg shake. He had me have seven egg shakes a day, and then fish, soup, salad for dinner, but v- very low calorie. So it was, it was not so different than what Phil was recommending, except the difference was Phil, uh, suggests not counting calories. And I can see, I understand the idea of not counting calories, and now I've come to realize, I think not counting calories works once you're at your target weight.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 53:22 Mm.

Rick Rubin 53:22 But to get to your target weight, you may need to count calories.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 53:25 Yeah. First of all, I'm, I'm sorry to hear about your friend and mentor-

Rick Rubin 53:29 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 53:30 ... Mo. Um, yeah. Um.

Rick Rubin 53:33 So I, so I went on a r- radically reduced calorie diet. I don't know, 13 or 1,400 calories a day. And, um, and in 14 months, I lost 135 pounds, which is a, you know, a third of my body w- more, more than a third of my body weight.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 53:49 Wow. It's interesting hearing that because whether it's 99% or a significant, uh, majority of people, if they followed what Phil-

Rick Rubin 54:01 Yes

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 54:01 ... was saying, would absolutely-

Rick Rubin 54:04 Yes

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 54:04 ... have had better health, better vitality-

Rick Rubin 54:07 Yes

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 54:07 ... better energy, and they would've lost weight.

Rick Rubin 54:09 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 54:10 'Cause I've used that sort of approach with not everyone, but with many of my patients.

Rick Rubin 54:14 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 54:14 And it can work super, super well.

Rick Rubin 54:16 Yeah. And Phil said it worked for f- everyone he's done it with, it's worked, so he was, he was baffled.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 54:22 Yeah, and I think the counting calories thing is, again, I think your story speaks to, you know, an idea in your book that don't get too attached to one way. There's always another way, you know?

Rick Rubin 54:36 Absolutely.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 54:37 You know?

Rick Rubin 54:37 And we're all different.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 54:38 And we're all different.

Rick Rubin 54:39 And what, and what works for you might not work for someone else, and it's helpful- To, you know, s- sometimes we have wisdom imparted by an expert who's telling us what, what, through their experience, is best.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 54:54 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 54:55 But it may be what's best for them and not best for you, and we are not, we are not one size fits all.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 55:00 Yeah, and it goes back to my previous com- which is as you get more experienced, if you're open-minded and-

Rick Rubin 55:06 Yes

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 55:06 ... not closed-minded-

Rick Rubin 55:07 Yes

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 55:08 ... after seeing tens of thousands of patients, if you remain open-minded, you're like, "There are always surprises."

Rick Rubin 55:14 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 55:15 There are always people doing things that you haven't tried before that, but they're doing and they're getting better. I've always liked to approach it with curiosity and go, "Wow, that's interesting. I didn't know that."

Rick Rubin 55:24 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 55:24 "I wouldn't have suggested that-

Rick Rubin 55:26 No

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 55:26 ... but that's working for you."

Rick Rubin 55:27 Yeah, and I'd like to know more.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 55:28 I'd love to learn more.

Rick Rubin 55:29 Absolutely. That's, I, that's my way of being in the world. If someone tells me something that doesn't make sense to me, I wanna know more. I wanna know everything. I don't, I don't, uh, discount what they're saying. Just the opposite.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 55:41 Yeah, I guess it's, it's whether you are attached to an identity, whether you're attached to being right, or whether you're, I guess, attached to learning.

Rick Rubin 55:51 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 55:51 'Cause for me, I think that's the fundamental difference now, and I feel that's one of the key moves I've made, which is why I think at this stage in my life, you know, my mid-40s, I've, I've never felt this happy and content. And I think this is a big part of it-

Rick Rubin 56:08 Yes

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 56:08 ... Rick, that it's not about being right anymore. I'm not, okay, fine, if I'm wrong about something-

Rick Rubin 56:12 Yes

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 56:12 ... okay, great. I've, I've had the opportunity to learn something.

Rick Rubin 56:15 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 56:15 And I think calories for s- for many people, I think where this calorie thing comes, for years, I think a lot of people tried to count calories, and a lot of people are of the view that if you focus on the right foods, actually, your natural satiety will take care of those calories for you.

Rick Rubin 56:30 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 56:31 That's certainly been my experience for most people.

Rick Rubin 56:33 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 56:33 But as you're just sharing, well, actually, for some people, it might well be helpful. Um, and do you still count calories today?

Rick Rubin 56:41 No. Well, the other thing that I found about counting calories that was really helpful is it is helpful to know where calories are. For example-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 56:49 Yeah

Rick Rubin 56:50 ... when, you know, I- almond, I, I used to like peanut butter and I switched to almond butter because it was the healthier choice. But the amount of calories in half of a jar of almond butter are quite a lot. So, so I'm making-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 57:06 Sure

Rick Rubin 57:06 ... but I'm making a healthy choice, and in my mind-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 57:08 Yeah

Rick Rubin 57:08 ... well, it's the healthy one. I can have half a bottle of almond butter because I like it and I'm hungry, so I'll have that. S- understanding that the, the half of jar of almond butter had-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 57:18 Yeah

Rick Rubin 57:18 ... more calories than I'm meant to eat in, in a whole day, in addition to all the food-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 57:24 Yeah

Rick Rubin 57:24 ... that I eat, was helpful to me.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 57:27 Yeah, it's an empowerment piece, isn't it? You can now use-

Rick Rubin 57:29 Absolutely

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 57:29 ... that information-

Rick Rubin 57:30 Absolutely

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 57:30 ... and now, without counting, go, "Hey, I want a bit of almond butter, but I better not have half the jar."

Rick Rubin 57:36 Yes. And now I rarely will have almond butter just because it's so, um-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 57:40 [laughs]

Rick Rubin 57:41 The trade-off of the-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 57:42 Yeah

Rick Rubin 57:42 ... amount of calories for what it is, I might not make that choice.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 57:46 Yeah, and again, it's an empowerment. You're now, with that information-

Rick Rubin 57:48 Absolutely

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 57:49 ... you're saying for you-

Rick Rubin 57:51 Yes

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 57:51 ... it's not worth the trade-off.

Rick Rubin 57:52 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 57:52 But Bob down the street-

Rick Rubin 57:54 It's up to him

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 57:54 ... he may go, "Yeah, that's, I, I, I definitely would rather eat less later but have my almond butter."

Rick Rubin 58:00 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 58:00 And, um, yeah. Super, super interesting. So you, you effectively went on a super low-calorie diet.

Rick Rubin 58:08 High, high-protein, no-carb, low-calorie diet.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 58:13 So with Phil, you had huge improvements in multiple aspects of your health-

Rick Rubin 58:17 Yes

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 58:17 ... just not weight loss.

Rick Rubin 58:19 Correct.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 58:20 When you saw, uh, your, your late friend's, uh, nutritionist-

Rick Rubin 58:25 Yes

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 58:26 ... you got this incredible weight loss. Was there anything else you got with it, or was it mainly weight?

Rick Rubin 58:36 It... This is an interesting one. At that point in time, I felt like I, I really, in that, in that case, what he was suggesting, what the nutritionist was suggesting, was suggesting seemed very far out to me. It, it seemed extreme to me, and I felt like by doing what he said, I was, I was putting my faith in him and turning, turning myself over. I didn't do what I thought was best.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 59:12 Mm-hmm.

Rick Rubin 59:12 I did what he thought was best, which was not something I'm good at.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 59:16 Mm-hmm.

Rick Rubin 59:17 And I found through that, through giving up what I thought was best, that's how I ended up losing weight.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 59:27 So what's the lesson there? Don't always trust yourself?

Rick Rubin 59:31 Well, we ca- we can't always trust ourselves, but it's interesting that there are times when... A- and maybe it's, it's an experiment. You know, it's an experiment that sometimes I'm gonna do it the way that doesn't sound right to me-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 59:46 Yeah

Rick Rubin 59:47 ... and see what happens. Again, it's all a test. But to n- but I, before, I was c- I would've been closed to that test because that doesn't sound right to me.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 59:59 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 59:59 I'm not gonna do that. This didn't sound right to me, but out of respect for Mo, I'll try it.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:00:05 Yeah, it's an interesting concept, isn't it? Because I guess we'd always want people to trust themselves.

Rick Rubin 1:00:11 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:00:13 But nothing tends to be true at the extremes, does it?

Rick Rubin 1:00:17 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:00:17 It's kinda like, yeah, sure, trust yourself, trust yourself, but sometimes lean in and trust someone else and see what happens.

Rick Rubin 1:00:24 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:00:25 It's a bit like that section in, in the book that you've written on rules and how rules are sometimes-

Rick Rubin 1:00:33 Always. [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:00:34 Oh, always. Okay. So tell me about rules.

Rick Rubin 1:00:37 Um, I think rules are there to be tested, and w- when a, when a rule comes, it can, it can either be a useful rule or n- a, a, a not useful rule. And- Sometimes we'll adopt a set of rules on purpose, a limitation that, that, um, to create a specific, uh-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:01:05 Yeah

Rick Rubin 1:01:05 ... you may work on a book-- Like, ev- every time you work on a book, you s- dis- you have a s- a rough idea of what it's gonna be about. It's not about everything.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:01:13 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 1:01:13 Not every book is about everything. So you set up an organization-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:01:17 Yeah

Rick Rubin 1:01:17 ... for that book. That's rules, and that's rules that you're adopting for that book. So there's time where having rules makes sense. In general in the world, rules are there to establish an average behavior, and I'm not sure that average is anything to aspire to. So sometimes, especially in art, if you want to, uh, create something special, often it comes from breaking rules, from going beyond the accepted norm-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:01:52 Yeah

Rick Rubin 1:01:52 ... of how it's done.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:01:54 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 1:01:55 I'll, I'll tell you this, an interesting medical story about going beyond the norms of how things are-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:02:00 Yeah

Rick Rubin 1:02:00 ... I, I just heard this story recently. Um, I have a friend who's a brilliant brain surgeon, maybe one of the best in the world, and he told me this story of doing a brain surgery where there was a big tumor i- in a part in the brain. It was a very particularly dangerous operation because the tumor was right next to the part of the brain that allows a person to speak.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:02:25 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 1:02:26 And if the, if the surgery went too far, the person would never speak again. And to do the surgery, the person was anesthetized but had to be awake and had to be speaking the whole time. It's the only way to know how far you can go.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:02:44 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 1:02:44 So the surgeon is doing th- th- these tiny slices of taking this tumor away, tiny slices, tiny slices, and the person's speaking to him, and he knows, "Well, I'm getting close to the place I can't go, you know, I can't go past because then the person will never speak again." And he's going, and the person's speaking, but the tumor's still there, and he's going, and he's going, and he's going. And then he gets to the part where he's not allowed to go further, and the person's still speaking, and he does another slice, and the person's still speaking. He does another slice-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:03:14 Mm

Rick Rubin 1:03:14 ... and he does another slice, and he keeps going.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:03:16 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 1:03:17 And he moved right through where, the, what the textbook says you can't do, and the person's speaking the whole time. And, and he said, "It was ama- it was incredible. It was an incredible experience, and the way we thought the brain works-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:03:35 Yeah

Rick Rubin 1:03:35 ... is not the way the brain works." And then I said, "Well, how much of the-- how much of what's taught today in medical school, in the textbook in medical school, textbooks of medical school, how much of that information is accurate and up to date, and how much isn't?" And he said, "Maybe half. Maybe half of what's being taught right now-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:04:01 Yeah

Rick Rubin 1:04:01 ... might be right, and at least half is either wrong or obsolete."

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:04:06 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 1:04:07 That's incredible.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:04:08 It is incredible.

Rick Rubin 1:04:10 That's incredible.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:04:12 And, and that's why it's a folly to h- to, to cling too tightly to these beliefs or these-

Rick Rubin 1:04:18 Yes

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:04:18 ... so-called truths that you've been taught-

Rick Rubin 1:04:20 Yes

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:04:20 ... because what if-

Rick Rubin 1:04:21 We don't know.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:04:22 You don't know.

Rick Rubin 1:04:22 No, we don't know. We, we know so little. And I, and I think the real, um, power we can have is embracing how little we know.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:04:31 Yeah. [laughs]

Rick Rubin 1:04:32 And to, to live in wonder, you know? It, it, it's, it's a m- it's a much more beautiful way... You, you, you said earlier about giving up being right. Um, when someone says to me, "You're right," it always makes me uncomfortable. I don't wanna be right. I just wanna know. I just wanna know more.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:04:49 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 1:04:49 Do you know what I mean? 'Cause if I'm right, that means someone's wrong. I don't want anybody to be wrong. I w- I want us all to just find our way.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:04:57 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 1:04:57 You know? It's not a... There's, there's no sense of competition in it. It's like, let's work together to find our way.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:05:05 As someone who's not used to putting their name on the fronts of work they've been involved with, does it make you uncomfortable in any way when I rave about how wonderful I think your book is? 'Cause many people struggle with praise.

Rick Rubin 1:05:20 Yeah. I, I definitely struggle with praise, but because I put so much work into it, it's exciting for me to know that someone can read it and feel, um, what I felt when, when working on it.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:05:32 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 1:05:32 So there's a, a sense of satisfaction that it's doing what I hoped it would do, which would be resonate with someone. I did-- I purposely did want this book, for someone to read it and feel it and wanna take action. That was, in some ways, the purpose of the book from the beginning. There was a version of the book about three years ago which was beautifully eloquent, but when I read it, it didn't, it didn't make me wanna make art. It was just... It was more, um... It d- it didn't do what I h- I wanted. I wanted someone to read the book and wanna write-- stop reading to go out and make something beautiful.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:06:12 Is there a contradiction in one of the core messages, which is you cannot make art, good art, if you're thinking about the outcome or you're thinking about what people will think?

Rick Rubin 1:06:26 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:06:27 Uh, and, and I'm saying this as an inquiry to-

Rick Rubin 1:06:29 No, no, no. Yes, yes, yes. Yes

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:06:30 ... to explore, not to-

Rick Rubin 1:06:31 Absolutely. No, absolutely.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:06:32 [laughs] Not with any other intention.

Rick Rubin 1:06:33 I understand. I'm with you. I'm with you.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:06:35 Because you just said to me that, "I really want people to be able to-

Rick Rubin 1:06:40 Yes

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:06:41 ... take this, resonate with, take action."

Rick Rubin 1:06:43 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:06:43 So is there a conflict there with those two i- uh, ideals?

Rick Rubin 1:06:45 There is, and there is an aspect of this book where it's an instruction manual.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:06:51 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 1:06:52 And for an instruction manual to be effective- The information in it wants to land. If it was a book of poetry, less so.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:07:03 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 1:07:04 And I'm hoping it's poetic. You know, I, I want it.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:07:06 It is, honestly.

Rick Rubin 1:07:07 Yeah, I wa- I like, I like that it's poetic, but ultimately, the, the reason I put the time in for this to exist was in the same way that when I go to the studio with artists, it's to help them be their best selves. And th- the idea of the book was to be an outgrowth of that, where for the people I don't get to work with in the studio, what's it like being in the studio? What are the things we talk about? Um, w- what are the things that-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:07:32 Yeah

Rick Rubin 1:07:32 ... we get to that ends up in making the things that we make, and that's what the book is. So if it, if it didn't make you wanna make something, I would deem it not a success for me.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:07:45 Yeah. There's, uh, there are so many wonderful sections in the book that are coming to mind for me at the moment, Rick. One of them is about, um, make art that moves you.

Rick Rubin 1:07:58 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:08:01 If it happens to move someone else, okay, great.

Rick Rubin 1:08:05 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:08:05 And if it doesn't, that's okay as well.

Rick Rubin 1:08:06 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:08:06 But first and foremost, make the art that moves you.

Rick Rubin 1:08:09 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:08:10 I want to etch that into my heart, into my soul, because I... I- there's a, there's this other concept in the book. You talk about the, the, the pressure of a loyal audience.

Rick Rubin 1:08:22 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:08:23 A loyal audience can begin to feel like a prison.

Rick Rubin 1:08:26 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:08:27 And I feel that's, um... It's a really interesting concept, and I actually think every aspect that we've been talking about is relevant to every single person. That loyal audience thing is, you know, the way you expand upon it in the book through the concepts, through the lens of the music industry, you know, if you're a successful artist and you've sold loads of copies of your album, there's a whole team of people around you wanting you to repeat the same. This is the formula. Hey, hey, hey.

Rick Rubin 1:08:55 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:08:55 Just, just give us that again.

Rick Rubin 1:08:57 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:08:57 Right? And, you know, I've experienced, uh, a lot of, um, a lot of, in inverted commas, success over the past few years-

Rick Rubin 1:09:08 Mm-hmm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:09:08 ... with this podcast, with my books, and what I love about that sort of idea is something... I mean, I, I took some real time off over the summer. Spent it with my wife and kids. We went away. I was off social media. It was just wonderful, and I've really been reevaluating what it is I want, what is it I'm here to do, and I don't wanna play it safe. You don't-- I don't want to... You know, you could play it safe. You could only take interviews with people who you know your audience are gonna like, and that's the topics that they want, but I think that's a misservice to them, and it's a misservice to myself.

Rick Rubin 1:09:44 Absolutely.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:09:45 Because in the process of doing that, you lose who you are.

Rick Rubin 1:09:48 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:09:48 And then you end up compensating for that with all kinds of behaviors that ends you up in the doctor's surgery asking for help, right?

Rick Rubin 1:09:56 Yes. Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:09:58 Yeah. Have you seen artists fall into that trap?

Rick Rubin 1:10:04 Absolutely. Uh, it happens all the time. The, just the, the expectation. It, it works in many different ways, but the idea that if there's a group of people who are expecting a certain thing from you, and you, you no longer feel like that artist, you know, you've, you've moved forward, and your concern is that the audience hasn't moved forward, it's a very uncomfortable place to be.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:10:34 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 1:10:35 You can continue going through the motions in the old way and thinking that that will please the audience, and it may or may not, or you can be true to yourself, and in that process, you'll alienate some of your audience and maybe get new, get new fans. It's, it's the reality of the situation. I had that experience with, um, the band Linkin Park.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:10:58 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 1:10:58 Linkin Park were a very, uh, aggressive, um, n- I guess the, they were on the end of the new metal. There was like a new metal phase of music, and they were the last band in this wave-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:11:16 Yeah

Rick Rubin 1:11:16 ... of these new metal bands and, like rap rock, new metal, and I had seen that they had grown past it, and it was time to make their next album, and I suggested that they embrace what they loved-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:11:33 Yeah

Rick Rubin 1:11:33 ... and to make the most interesting thing for themselves, and they did, and it completely divided the audience, and it set them up to be able to continue making interesting things going forward. And in some ways, it's like their early career, and now there's this new career that's much more, uh, there was much more... It, it moved in more directions, and it was more honest. It was less formulaic.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:12:04 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 1:12:05 And it was fine. You know, work- it worked out fine, but definitely in the moment, I can remember it happened to me when, you know, I loved Radiohead. When they put out Kid A, my first instinct was, "Well, that's not what I want from Radiohead."

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:12:19 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 1:12:20 It happens, and now listening back, it's one of my favorite albums. That happens. We don't always know.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:12:25 So even, even as consumers then of art, letting go of rigidity and expectation and being open to the unknown and open to things, I guess that's an important lesson for us as well, 'cause you know that as a creator.

Rick Rubin 1:12:41 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:12:42 But that was really powerful that as a fan of Radiohead, you fell into that trap as well. [laughs]

Rick Rubin 1:12:49 Absolutely. Absolutely.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:12:50 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 1:12:51 And sometimes, again, if we, if you're, if you have expectations or you see things in a certain context, when that's, um, upset- It's hard to know where you stand

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:13:07 Yeah

Rick Rubin 1:13:07 ... and I've grown to really like that feeling. Doesn't m- always mean, s- d- different's not always better. It's often not. That's the other thing. It's like, just because it's different doesn't mean it's better.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:13:20 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 1:13:22 And let's assume that because it's different, it's not worse. We don't know. It's like it, it has to-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:13:27 Yeah

Rick Rubin 1:13:27 ... you have to experience it and see. Sometimes the shock of the new is very exciting, and it's like, "Ah."

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:13:34 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 1:13:35 But sometimes it's a-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:13:38 It's so fascinating. I, um, I saw this thing on Kurt Cobain a couple of weeks ago on YouTube, and there's something I didn't know. I was a, you know, when Smells Like Teen Spirit came out, I was, what? I don't know, probably about, what was that, '91, something like that. I was probably 13, 14, 15, you know, really into music, you know, im- seminal album. Very real, very authentic. And then in this video I saw a couple of weeks ago, they were showing footage of, uh, I think Kurt Cobain saying that, or I think it was Dave Grohl talking about Kurt's, that he wanted Nirvana to be the biggest band in the world.

Rick Rubin 1:14:22 Wow. That's interesting.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:14:23 It was really interesting, 'cause I was also at the same time reading your book-

Rick Rubin 1:14:27 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:14:27 ... and I thought, "Well, this is interesting." I never would've expected that. That certainly wasn't the, I'm not saying curated image that I got given by the record industry, but this kind of raw, authentic grunge bands. Oh, Kurt Cobain wanted Nirvana to be the biggest band in the world, and I felt a slight disconnect there when I heard that.

Rick Rubin 1:14:46 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:14:47 Especially going back to the idea that you can't make great art if you're thinking about the outcome.

Rick Rubin 1:14:51 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:14:53 I don't know if you have any thoughts on that at all.

Rick Rubin 1:14:54 Yeah. W- what's interesting is, with the things that I've worked on, things that I make, I, I, the audience comes last. I wanna make the best thing that I can, and I hope a lot of people like it. I, I don't make it with them in mind because that's, it, I know it won't be as good.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:15:16 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 1:15:17 But when they do, it certainly feels good. I'm n- I'm not, uh, against success-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:15:23 Yeah

Rick Rubin 1:15:24 ... at all, at all. And it's am- it's amazing when it happens. It's when that becomes the primary focus in the making, when you're changing the art for it to be successful, and I don't get the sense, and I don't know this, maybe Kurt Cobain wanted to be the biggest band in the world, but I'd be surprised if he made creative choices-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:15:49 Yeah

Rick Rubin 1:15:49 ... to, um, that, with that in mind.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:15:59 And that's the key distinction, isn't it?

Rick Rubin 1:16:01 It really is. It's, it's, it's what's the intention in the making?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:16:05 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 1:16:06 Again, I, I'm, I'm, there's, there's nothing wrong with wanting and having success. I'm only talking about when you're making something, where does your focus lie for it to be as good as it could be.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:16:18 Yeah, 'cause I imagine that can work both ways, like I can imagine, and maybe you've worked with bands where actually they did change the art in order for it to be commercially successful.

Rick Rubin 1:16:30 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:16:30 Maybe there was pressure from the record industry-

Rick Rubin 1:16:32 Mm-hmm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:16:32 ... from publicists, from managers, who knows what.

Rick Rubin 1:16:34 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:16:35 And maybe in the short term, they thought that was a win.

Rick Rubin 1:16:39 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:16:41 But I just feel strongly [laughs] that medium term, long term, you lose something much more significant than-

Rick Rubin 1:16:49 Absolutely

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:16:49 ... anything you might gain with that commercial success.

Rick Rubin 1:16:52 Absolutely. And each, in, in that process of whittling away at yourself, over time, there's, there's less of you to put into the next one. There's less. You know, it's like it-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:17:08 Yeah

Rick Rubin 1:17:08 ... you, you really do, like, you get to a point of, "Who am I?"

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:17:14 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 1:17:14 If, if that's happened enough times.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:17:17 Yeah. I mean, I feel, Rick, for, for much of my life, I've tried to perform and be someone who I am not-

Rick Rubin 1:17:28 Yes

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:17:29 ... in order to get validation.

Rick Rubin 1:17:31 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:17:32 And a lot of that has come down to the programs, the, the ideas that I took on as a child, um, which was that in order to be loved, or certainly my perception, I should say, 'cause it's, it's my perception.

Rick Rubin 1:17:45 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:17:45 My perception was that I'm loved when I get top marks, when I get straight As, when I'm number one-

Rick Rubin 1:17:52 Yes

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:17:53 ... because my parents were always driving me to do that. But-

Rick Rubin 1:17:56 Yes

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:17:56 ... you know, just to briefly summarize, my parents, immigrants to the UK from India, facing a lot of discrimination, a lot of struggle. They just want the best for their child.

Rick Rubin 1:18:05 Absolutely.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:18:05 They, they, that was their way of showing love.

Rick Rubin 1:18:08 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:18:08 "Hey, you be the best you can be, actually, you're not gonna have the problems that we've had." So same reality, but two versions of that reality, two perceptions.

Rick Rubin 1:18:20 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:18:21 And so why I feel, and I, I'd be interested in your thoughts on the art form of podcasting, because you've now written a book, you've been involved with many albums, I know, and I've listened to many of the episodes you did with Broken Record. Uh, wonderful conversations that you've had with artists. So I'm interested to see your view on the podcasting art form. I feel that this podcast, you know, I, I keep getting stopped by people who are listening to the show and telling me beautiful, uh, stories of the impact it's had on them, which is really nice to hear.

Rick Rubin 1:18:51 Absolutely.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:18:51 It's certainly not ego-elevating in a way that it would've been 10 years ago, because I'm not that person anymore. I don't need that validation, but I think it's helped me more than anyone.

Rick Rubin 1:19:02 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:19:03 Like, these are the conversations that, um, nourish me, that fuel me, that help me understand myself.

Rick Rubin 1:19:10 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:19:11 And unfortunately, we're not in my studio. You would've met my, um, my videographer, Gareth, who is a mega fan of yours actually, Rick. Um, but something-- Gareth only joined the team maybe two or three years ago when we, we brought video into the production process. And Gareth probably spends as much time with me as anyone outside my family 'cause he's in with me for every conversation. He sees me beforehand, he sees me after. So he sees me with all the, the filters off as well. And he's been wonderful at helping us work that this idea of performance versus authenticity, this whole idea that he would spot that I was, like, subtly different when the mic's rolling than when the mic's not rolling.

Rick Rubin 1:19:59 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:20:00 And so we've, in a variety of ways, just been conscious, aware of can I show up as the same person, same thought process, same intonation in my voice, everything, as if the mic isn't there?

Rick Rubin 1:20:18 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:20:19 And it's been really quite, um-- It's just been a phenomenal experience because performance-- I used to think performance was a good thing growing up.

Rick Rubin 1:20:29 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:20:29 You know, I'm gonna now perform on stage. I was in bands for years, Rick. I've been a frontman in bands, a very loud, vivacious-

Rick Rubin 1:20:35 Oh, great

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:20:36 ... frontman. But that was a personality I put on to hide a deep insecurity, I realize. And actually, my, my only goal with each conversation is, is it a raw, authentic conversation? Were you as raw and as honest and as unaltered in your tone of voice as you could be? I don't know if you have any comments on that.

Rick Rubin 1:21:02 Uh, uh, it sounds-- That sounds, um, it sounds good. Like, it, it sounds like I, I want to hear-- It's one of the beautiful things about, one, that you're not a journalist. One of the things I've noticed is that there's a, there's a different conversation that you have with a journalist than you have with a person.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:21:26 Mm-hmm.

Rick Rubin 1:21:26 And again, not- nothing against journalists at all. But the nature of a journalist is different. The way, the way a journalist asks questions is different than having a conversation with someone.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:21:36 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 1:21:36 And I think the podcasting revolution is about this, the benefit of these long form-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:21:44 Yeah

Rick Rubin 1:21:44 ... essentially unedited heart-to-heart conversations, and it's something that we very rarely get to hear. We, we, in, in, um, in normal media life, we get snippets and sound bites. And often the snippets and sound bites are taken out of context or chosen for some sensational reason, and we don't, we don't really get to know people. And this format is incredible because we're spending hours together-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:22:13 Yeah

Rick Rubin 1:22:13 ... having a conversation, and there'll be parts that are really interesting, and parts that are less interesting-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:22:18 Yeah

Rick Rubin 1:22:18 ... and parts that are energetic and parts that are not. And it's real. It's, this is a real conversation. And I think it's more rooted in reality than, like, a curated experience-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:22:38 Yeah

Rick Rubin 1:22:38 ... of life. It, it's more real.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:22:43 When you were having these conversations for the Broken Record podcast with, you know, the Chili Peppers, Springsteen, Lenny Kravitz. I'm halfway through that one, which-

Rick Rubin 1:22:55 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:22:55 ... as a huge Lenny fan, it's, uh, really eye-opening for me.

Rick Rubin 1:22:58 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:22:58 Um, how do you prepare for those conversations?

Rick Rubin 1:23:03 Not much.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:23:04 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 1:23:05 Not much. Depends on who the artist is. If it's an artist I know, I may think about it the morning of the, the podcast and make a list of possible questions just in case it doesn't come up in the conversation-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:23:21 Yeah

Rick Rubin 1:23:21 ... like a backup plan. Um, if it's an artist I don't know, I may listen to some music, do a little research. I might even listen to another interview just to get a sense of who they are, so I'm not surprised when I, when I'm speaking to them. Um, that's pretty much, that's pretty much it. I, I go in pretty unprepared, honestly.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:23:45 That's interesting. I'm, I'm trying to think in my head how would that be different for when you're about to work with a band or a solo artist on a new album.

Rick Rubin 1:23:56 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:23:56 Different art forms. Obviously, in a podcast you are required to n- not necessarily lead a conversation, but, um, be on mic. [laughs]

Rick Rubin 1:24:09 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:24:11 W- Like, if you, if you, if you're working with a band you've never worked with before, do you go in cold, fresh?

Rick Rubin 1:24:17 Yes. Less c- m- m- less prepared.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:24:19 Even less prepared?

Rick Rubin 1:24:20 Absolutely.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:24:22 Because you don't want, what, anything to be colored by a previous experience?

Rick Rubin 1:24:26 Yeah, I don't wanna have-- I don't wanna come in with any baggage whatsoever. I wanna listen to what the artist tells me, and I want to, um, w- whatever's interesting to me in the conversation, I'll ask questions to learn what, what is helpful for me to know in that moment.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:24:42 Yeah. Super interesting.

Rick Rubin 1:24:46 Yeah. And I have no, uh, agenda other than if we're gonna make something together, that it be as good as it could be, whatever it is. So I, I, I don't, um... It depe- Like, if there's an artist who I, I know their music well, I might have, not o- not even, uh, on purpose, there may be in the back of my mind, "It would be fun to hear them doing this," you know, in the back of my mind, some style of, some style-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:25:11 Mm

Rick Rubin 1:25:11 ... of project for them to do. But I would never offer that to start with. It would always be a, "Let me hear what you wanna do," or-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:25:18 Yeah

Rick Rubin 1:25:19 ... and then I, I, you know, there may be some idea that a, again, a backup plan if nothing else works, there might be an idea, but I would never assume that any idea I had would be, uh, the right idea. [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:25:33 What kind of process do you need to go through or, or are there set, uh, practices that you engage in? I don't know, artist is rocking up at noon, let's say. In the two hours prior to that, do you have to go through an intentional process of clearing out the noise so you are as fresh and as uncolored when you meet them, when you hear their music? Like, I guess I'm thinking you're driving to a studio to meet someone-

Rick Rubin 1:26:06 Yes

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:26:07 ... and you have the radio playing, so you've got other music.

Rick Rubin 1:26:10 That might be, I might do that.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:26:11 You might do that.

Rick Rubin 1:26:11 I might do that.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:26:12 But you're not worried that that would, um... Because we're, we're never the same person, are we? We're not the same person on a Monday as we are on a Tuesday, right?

Rick Rubin 1:26:20 No.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:26:20 So everything you do-

Rick Rubin 1:26:23 Yes

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:26:23 ... or everything you have done in your entire life-

Rick Rubin 1:26:25 Yes

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:26:26 ... kind of plays into who you are in that moment-

Rick Rubin 1:26:29 Absolutely

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:26:29 ... when you're listening.

Rick Rubin 1:26:30 Absolutely. And whether it's-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:26:32 So how do you deal with that?

Rick Rubin 1:26:32 Whether it's sunny or raining, whether, you know-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:26:34 Yeah

Rick Rubin 1:26:34 ... everything, it just, it just is. It's not, it's not-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:26:38 It just is. [laughs]

Rick Rubin 1:26:38 Yeah, it just is. And also considering what you just said, that all of our lives play into this meeting, whatever happened in the last 10 minutes isn't more important than everything else. [laughs] So it, do you know what I mean?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:26:52 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 1:26:52 In the context of a lot has happened for us to get to this moment, and, uh, I'm just, you know, thankful to be here. [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:27:03 We mention ego in artists. Um, I guess all of us have got an element of ego that can rear its head at, at various times depending on what's going on.

Rick Rubin 1:27:14 I would say both ego and insecurity, like both sides-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:27:16 Yeah

Rick Rubin 1:27:16 ... of it are always at play.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:27:18 For sure.

Rick Rubin 1:27:18 And it, you might see someone who demonstrates it through what seems like an egomaniac perspective, yet underneath that is this very insecure person.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:27:29 100%.

Rick Rubin 1:27:29 So it's, it's always just like a sliding scale between, uh, sh- shy and outgoing and, uh, wild ego, tremendous insecurity. It's just like a seesaw. [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:27:50 Yeah. Yeah. That's an interesting one to ponder. What's it like for you, because y- you've said earlier on in this conversation that you're still basically just kinda doing your hobby and [laughs] -

Rick Rubin 1:28:03 Yes

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:28:03 ... it's created this wonderful life for you, and sure, it's technically work, 'cause there's schedules and obligations and things you have to fulfill. But really it's just you, you know, engaging in a hobby that you love.

Rick Rubin 1:28:15 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:28:16 Which, uh, which I think is everyone's dream really, to be able to do a job like that. I certainly feel I've got a huge element of that in my life now.

Rick Rubin 1:28:23 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:28:23 Um, if you read the press on yourself, it will consistently say things like, "Greatest record producer of all time," you know, "One of the most influential people on the planet," or whatever kinds of things that society has put onto you. So how do you deal with that? Let's say you're about to go somewhere, you're introduced like that. It's in- it's intriguing for me, how do you, what happens in your mind when you hear that?

Rick Rubin 1:28:55 I, I just think it's all like a funny story. You know?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:28:58 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 1:28:58 I, I know that, I know I'm the same person I've always been. It's fascinating to know that that's the perception. It's fascinating that some of it may be true, some of it may not be true. It's all just, it's just interesting. It's all interesting.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:29:13 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 1:29:14 It's like, wow, can you believe that? It, it, obviously when someone says something really good about me, on the one hand it's like, "Oh, I'm glad they think that," and that makes me uncomfortable. Both of those feelings-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:29:24 Yeah

Rick Rubin 1:29:24 ... those feelings come up. Um, and it usually feels like I, I'd like that to get out of the way so that we could engage with whatever the... 'Cause it seems like it's not important to me. It's the same, it's the reason the book doesn't tell any stories about my life or any of the artists I work with. It's a distraction from this, from the material.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:29:47 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 1:29:47 And my interest i- in life is in the material, not in the stories about it or the sensational nature of it. I l- I like the, um, I like to close my eyes and listen to the music. I like to, um, engage in a conversation and he-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:30:05 Yeah

Rick Rubin 1:30:05 ... you know, l- me- meet somebody as who they are.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:30:09 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 1:30:09 It's a very interesting thing that some people, the idea of this putting on a performance or a facade, it's, um, it creates a real distortion in the reality field. It's like if you're in a relationship with someone and, uh, you lie to them or they lie to you, it's like are you even really together?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:30:34 Mm.

Rick Rubin 1:30:34 Do you know what I'm saying? It's like a- all we have is this shared understanding of reality-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:30:40 Yeah

Rick Rubin 1:30:41 ... and if we can't talk about the same reality, are we even, do we even, do we know each other at all? Are we even in the same place? You know? It's like it's one of us is in a ph- one of us is believing something that the other person knows is not true.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:30:58 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 1:30:58 And it's like we're not, we're in two different realms.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:31:02 Yeah. It, it's funny that a lot of people when they meet a long-term partner, the first part or certainly the early parts of the relationship is often facilitated by alcohol.

Rick Rubin 1:31:14 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:31:15 And if you think about what alcohol does to us and how it changes us and our behaviors and our patterns and our, you know, those insecurities can be dampened. So it's interesting m- many people bond as a version of themselves who they, they simply are not.

Rick Rubin 1:31:32 Yes. Although it may be because it lets down in- inhibitions-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:31:38 Yeah

Rick Rubin 1:31:38 ... I don't drink, first of all, but I will say th- because, uh, alcohol lowers inhibitions, somebody might say something that they would hold back-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:31:49 It's true

Rick Rubin 1:31:50 ... in polite company.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:31:51 Yeah. Nothing's true in the extremes, hey. It's-

Rick Rubin 1:31:54 No, it's har- it's hard to know.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:31:55 It's hard to know.

Rick Rubin 1:31:55 It's hard to know. Hopefully, also if someone meditates, that might be the case. They might be real, you know, they might be real.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:32:01 Have you ever had a case where you felt the artists in your presence, because of the, the story around you, feel unable to share their truth? Oh, man, this, you know, Rick Rubin says the vocal needs changing there, or Rick Rubin says the guitar isn't quite right there. Like, have you ever, have you ever detected, you know, maybe some people pleasers or people who felt quite insecure, not trusting themselves in your presence because of this story, albeit a subjective story because art is subjective. Um, ha- have you ever detected that?

Rick Rubin 1:32:36 Uh, it, it, it has probably happened. The nature of the process is it's a long process.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:32:42 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 1:32:42 And, like, maybe when we first met each other, we had thoughts about each other, whatever it is, you know, first.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:32:47 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Rick Rubin 1:32:47 But now that we've been talking for however long we've been talking, we're just talking.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:32:51 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 1:32:51 It's li- it's like that. It's like whatever, uh, ideas anyone comes in with get dispelled very quickly when you just have a conversation and it just becomes people talking.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:33:02 Yeah. This is one of the reasons I, I do long form.

Rick Rubin 1:33:06 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:33:07 Uh, and sort of the interesting, it really speaks to, to some of the ideas in the book, this idea that you make the art you wanna make, that's in your heart. Because as we're having this conversation, Rick, you know, it's just over four and a half years since this show started. And, um, it's funny, just before we started, you said, "Oh, you got in early." And I was like, "No, when I started podcasting, I thought I was late."

Rick Rubin 1:33:31 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:33:32 Uh, I thought, oh man, this has been going for years. You know, is there any room? And, you know, I, I, I'd like to believe that there's always, uh, space for quality content.

Rick Rubin 1:33:43 Absolutely.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:33:44 You, I have to believe that.

Rick Rubin 1:33:46 Absolutely.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:33:46 Um, otherwise, what's the point?

Rick Rubin 1:33:48 Absolutely.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:33:48 Um, but at the time, in the UK podcast industry, what they, what they would say is that you cannot, or you should not do a podcast more than 40 minutes long.

Rick Rubin 1:33:59 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:34:00 The average commute time is 40 minutes. That's how long they should be.

Rick Rubin 1:34:03 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:34:03 And my first few were of that length. I just, something didn't sit right with me. And over the next few months, little by little, they started getting longer-

Rick Rubin 1:34:16 Mm-hmm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:34:16 ... and longer and longer. [laughs]

Rick Rubin 1:34:18 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:34:18 And as they got longer, they got more and more popular, which I found was really, really interesting. And there wasn't that many people on this side of the Atlantic at that time doing long form. You know, there was, you know, like Tim Ferriss in America and Rich Roll.

Rick Rubin 1:34:36 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:34:37 These guys were doing great long form there, but it wasn't really happening here. It's started to change a little bit here, but still there's a bias towards shorter content-

Rick Rubin 1:34:44 Mm-hmm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:34:45 ... which I found interesting, but I think this speaks, I think, to the message you've tried to put out throughout your career that make the art that moves you.

Rick Rubin 1:34:56 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:34:58 How do you see the selling of the art compared to the making of the art? And it's something you said before, Rick, about when snippets are taken to be sensationalist or whatever, then there can also be a conflict. I, I, I, I really struggle with that with this show because the, the conversations are 90 minutes to two hours, maybe two and a half hours. But then we will then take clips to put on platforms like Instagram to raise awareness-

Rick Rubin 1:35:32 Mm-hmm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:35:33 ... of hopefully a, a wonderful two-hour conversation.

Rick Rubin 1:35:36 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:35:37 But it's almost in conflict with what we do because-

Rick Rubin 1:35:40 Not really, 'cause that, that's a commercial.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:35:42 Okay.

Rick Rubin 1:35:42 It's a different, it's a different thing.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:35:43 So it's different. You're okay with that?

Rick Rubin 1:35:45 Absolutely.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:35:45 Ethically, ethically, you think that's okay?

Rick Rubin 1:35:47 Absolutely. Because again, it's, if you want more, this is where, the, the, you're, you're doing that in service of this.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:35:54 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 1:35:54 You're doing the short form to draw attention to the long form, and the long form is the th- the thing that you are making that you're proud of. You, you're, any way that you can spread the information in a way that someone engages with the thing that you're doing, that seems okay.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:36:13 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 1:36:15 It's a different thing. It's like, same, like, a- any thoughts about how to release a, release a project, how to put it into the world, that starts after you've made it. You know, you make it first-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:36:27 Yeah

Rick Rubin 1:36:27 ... and it's just a whole new job that starts after you've made the art as good as it could be, then okay, how are we gonna turn people onto this? If you start thinking about that before, it's gonna, uh, undermine the, the DNA of it.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:36:42 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 1:36:42 It becomes a mark- you know, the, the, the project becomes a marketing, part of a marketing vehicle.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:36:48 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 1:36:49 But if you make this beautiful thing first, and then, okay, it's done. I've signed off. The art's done. Now, how do we turn people onto it?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:36:57 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 1:36:57 And then it's a whole new really creative adventure in what are the best ways-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:37:02 It's a different skill set

Rick Rubin 1:37:03 ... completely different.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:37:04 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 1:37:04 Completely different.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:37:05 Yeah. You said you've been writing this book for seven years.

Rick Rubin 1:37:09 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:37:10 For over seven years, around seven years.

Rick Rubin 1:37:11 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:37:12 And-

Rick Rubin 1:37:12 The process started seven years ago

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:37:16 I'm interested in your philosophy on deadlines Did you have a deadline for this book?

Rick Rubin 1:37:22 I did not

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:37:23 So the wider question is, uh, for me, the wider question is how do you know when the art is finished and can be shared and released?

Rick Rubin 1:37:40 Something I learned through the work- working on the book, um, this is something I'm not g- not good at, or at least wasn't good at prior to the book. I'm not a great finisher. I'm a better experimenter than a finisher. So I can tinker away for a long time. Finishing is difficult. I like, I love when it's done-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:38:02 [laughs]

Rick Rubin 1:38:03 ... so I don't have to think about it anymore. I like that. I like when it's done. But getting to the point of saying it's done, that there are no more options is a, you know, c- closing options is not something that- that's easy for me to do. What I came to realize is that there are different points in a project and in the book we talk about a seed phase, where you're collecting ideas. The experimentation phase, where you're taking those seeds and seeing what they can turn into. Then there's a craft phase where after the seed germinates, now we bring our own filter into it to see if we can, um, how can we shape this thing that the universe wants to give us? And then the final phase is editing and a- all of the pieces of the finishing part. And in the past, I looked at those all as part of this open-ended, it can go on forever.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:39:01 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 1:39:01 And I came to realize the only parts, it's really the first, especially the first two and sometimes some of the third step, where we need time. But the finishing, the last piece of it, you can set a deadline there and it actually might be a good thing. And it's not, and again, I only learned that through working on the book and seeing where my method doesn't work as well as it could-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:39:29 Yeah

Rick Rubin 1:39:29 ... that we've already done all the tests. Now it's purely, th- there's no, there really isn't more experimentation to do. We've cracked the code. And once we've cracked the code, setting a time to get it out is, can be a really, really helpful thing.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:39:49 Yeah. That, I, I found that so interesting, right. Something I've thought a lot about, and I guess I have a slightly different perspective-

Rick Rubin 1:39:54 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:39:54 ... and I, I wonder-

Rick Rubin 1:39:55 There's no right or wrong, also. [laughs] That's, that's my-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:39:57 Yeah. I, I just wonder what your-

Rick Rubin 1:39:58 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:39:58 ... you know, you're someone who I, I res- have a huge amount of respect for.

Rick Rubin 1:40:01 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:40:01 So I'm, I'm, you know, fascinated by your opinion on this. If I didn't have deadlines, there's no way I would've written five books in the past five years.

Rick Rubin 1:40:14 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:40:15 No way.

Rick Rubin 1:40:15 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:40:16 It just wouldn't have happened.

Rick Rubin 1:40:17 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:40:18 And I have some author friends, one very successful author in America who, you know, four or five years, you know, he'd, he'd had a big hit book and, you know, it was changing people's lives. And for four or five years, he said, "I'm still working on my book. I'm still working." I said, "Mate, honestly, I think you need a deadline because I've heard some of your early stuff three years ago. It was great." Um, he goes, "No, no, I'm not quite, I've still got to work through the ideas." And I get that. I don't think there's a hard and fast rule. But my view has become, and I guess we all tell ourselves the story that works, [laughs] that suits our life.

Rick Rubin 1:40:55 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:40:55 So maybe I'm telling myself a story here, but-

Rick Rubin 1:40:57 Mm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:40:57 ... I just see a piece of art as a snapshot in time.

Rick Rubin 1:41:02 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:41:03 Because that's all it ever can be. So when I finish a manuscript, when I've, it's been through edits, I've tweaked it, I've gone away from it, I've come back to it, and it's the date to go to print, and which the publisher says, "We cannot make any more changes, even if you send us any, some of those emails in a few weeks like you've done before."

Rick Rubin 1:41:23 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:41:24 "We're, we're done now."

Rick Rubin 1:41:25 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:41:26 I've learnt to embrace that and go, "No, that's part of the process." It can only ever be as good as I can make it at the point they press print.

Rick Rubin 1:41:34 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:41:35 Because my thoughts about these ideas don't just suddenly stop.

Rick Rubin 1:41:40 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:41:41 So even when it's being printed, I'm seeing things in the world, I'm coming up with new ideas. "Oh, had I, if I could change that manuscript, I would."

Rick Rubin 1:41:52 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:41:52 And so I, I, I give, a lot of authors come to me for advice and I, I say, "Guys, listen, take the pressure off yourself." Right? It's a snapshot in time.

Rick Rubin 1:42:01 True.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:42:02 Sorry to interrupt. If you are enjoying this content, there's loads more just like it on my channel, so please do take a moment to press Subscribe, hit the notification bell. And now back to the conversation. So what's your perspective on that, given what you just said? 'Cause it's, it's similar, but it's slightly different, isn't it?

Rick Rubin 1:42:19 It is. It's, um, I, I do believe that the work's a snapshot in time. I think that's, in some ways, without knowing that, it's nearly impossible to put anything out.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:42:32 [laughs] Yeah.

Rick Rubin 1:42:33 So it, it is true that it's a snapshot in time, and it's all essentially a diary. Um, I, I think it really depends on what it is that you're making.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:42:45 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 1:42:45 Like also if you're, let's say you're a newspaper reporter and the newspaper comes out every day. Obviously the amount of time and attention that goes into each article is gonna be different than if you're writing the, the one book you write a year. And if you write one book every five years, the time and attention that goes into that book is gonna be different than the one that you write in one year. It just is the nature of time, and I don't think there's a, a, a correct schedule for any of these things.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:43:14 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 1:43:14 You know, you're on the schedule of, "This is what I can put out once a year, and this is the schedule I like," and there's nothing wrong with that. There are cer- certain artists, certain musicians who put out an album every three to f- you know, three or four years, and then there are some artists who put out an album every year

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:43:31 Yeah

Rick Rubin 1:43:31 And one's not right and one's not wrong. It's, it's, uh... And there's also a habit involved. I know, um, with the artists that I work on, I've worked with for a long time, we tend to overwrite. I, I like this process of, um, like for example, with the, the Chili Peppers, i- if there are gonna be, uh, 12 songs on an album, we might record 30 or 35 songs.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:43:55 Mm.

Rick Rubin 1:43:55 We might finish 35 songs to have 12 on an album. So every album we put out, in some ways, is a greatest hits of three albums-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:44:04 Yeah

Rick Rubin 1:44:04 ... put into one. And that's just a habit I got into of, of, uh... And, and not all artists will go- You know, not all artists are up for that. Some artists, you know, write eight songs and think, "Okay, maybe I need one more to be done," and that's all they're willing to do. So it really depends on, it depends on the artist. And again, there's no right or wrong.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:44:25 Yeah, there's no-

Rick Rubin 1:44:25 It's like these are just different ways of approaching it.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:44:28 Yeah. It's-

Rick Rubin 1:44:29 There is, there i- I do believe that the more you have to choose from, chances are it'll be better.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:44:37 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 1:44:37 I think. You know? If it... There's-- Who's to say that the first five songs you write are gonna be better than the last five of 20?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:44:47 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 1:44:47 I don't know. We don't know, and we won't know that till we get to the 20.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:44:51 Yeah, 'cause in the moment you think those first five are the best five.

Rick Rubin 1:44:53 Absolutely.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:44:54 You think, "Oh man, these are awesome."

Rick Rubin 1:44:55 You never know.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:44:55 "Definitely going on the album."

Rick Rubin 1:44:56 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:44:57 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 1:44:57 Yeah. So it's, it, it's hard to say. It's really hard to say.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:45:00 Yeah. I remember, um, an interview Bono gave in the '90s about the Pop album.

Rick Rubin 1:45:06 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:45:07 And I think this illustrates the point beautifully, for good or for worse, potentially. But he said, words to the effect of, and you may know this better than, than me, being so close to the music industry, like, being in the industry. But-

Rick Rubin 1:45:21 Mm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:45:22 ... you know, as a, as a avid music fan, I would consume CDs, music, read interviews, buy bootlegs, everything. So I would-- The bands I liked, I knew everything about them. Um, Bono said that Pop wasn't finished when they put it out.

Rick Rubin 1:45:37 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:45:37 The problem was that they had a, a sold-out stadium tour across the world booked, the Pop Stadium Tour. So they [laughs] just had to put the album out as good as they could make it at that time.

Rick Rubin 1:45:48 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:45:49 And over the first 12 months on tour, he says these songs evolved-

Rick Rubin 1:45:53 Mm-hmm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:45:54 ... hugely, to the point, I think, where had they recorded it or had they finished the album a year later, it would've been a different album.

Rick Rubin 1:46:00 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:46:01 And I think that... It's funny how back then I wasn't, um, I wasn't a doctor, I wasn't a podcast host, I wasn't an author. Something about that stuck in my brain-

Rick Rubin 1:46:12 Mm-hmm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:46:12 ... from the '90s. Oh, ah, there was a deadline, but it wasn't quite ready. And I think I have thought about that interview so much over the past years as I've gone into this now public-facing, creative career as a podcaster and as an author.

Rick Rubin 1:46:28 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:46:28 And it, I think that has also helped me realize or come to the conclusion that it's only ever a snapshot in time.

Rick Rubin 1:46:35 Yes. I've heard a different version of that story, that the album was actually better earlier.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:46:42 Oh, wow.

Rick Rubin 1:46:42 And that they went past it, and that there were times that there were, like, rough mixes of the album that were much better than the album. I don't know if that's true, but it's, it's just interesting. It's interesting even for the same album, was it too early? Was it too late? Who knows?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:46:56 And I guess you presumably will have been in that position before. Was it, was it better before we started faffing around and changing things? Was it better three weeks ago?

Rick Rubin 1:47:04 I'm really into this. [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:47:06 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 1:47:07 And, uh, I never assume that because we work on it longer, it's getting better.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:47:15 Mm.

Rick Rubin 1:47:15 Longer does not make it better.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:47:17 Same with writing.

Rick Rubin 1:47:18 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:47:18 You can sometimes go, "I have it."

Rick Rubin 1:47:20 Absolutely.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:47:20 "Oh, my God."

Rick Rubin 1:47:20 You go past it. You go past it.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:47:21 "I've, I've messed it up now. I've tried to elongate that point."

Rick Rubin 1:47:24 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:47:25 And that's where collaboration comes in. [laughs]

Rick Rubin 1:47:27 Absolutely.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:47:27 It's like, "Hey, it was better before."

Rick Rubin 1:47:28 Absolutely. And also, we can even do it with ourselves, 'cause I always refer back. Like, um, there'll be a moment when I feel like we have something. Like, ear- early in the process of like this, this is the clue of what we're gonna... You know? Like, this, the-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:47:46 Yeah

Rick Rubin 1:47:46 ... the seed that we love, the, the demo, the, uh-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:47:49 Yeah, yeah

Rick Rubin 1:47:49 ... it might even be a snippet of just, uh, the way, the feel of a certain piece of music, or it could be a tiny little fragment. But this fragment is the reason we're gonna go on this journey. I always refer back to that fragment later on and say, "Are we as good as the fragment? Are we better than the fragment? Are we worse than the fragment?" Because if it's... It's fine to be different than the fragment, but if it's not a- at least as good as the fragment, it's all been a waste of time.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:48:23 That must be really hard.

Rick Rubin 1:48:24 Yeah. Well, I'll give you an, uh, a specific example. The first album I put out with Johnny Cash was essentially Johnny Cash in my living room playing me songs on a guitar. That was not the intention for that album.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:48:36 Mm-hmm.

Rick Rubin 1:48:36 The original intention was those were-- we were figuring out what songs to do. He was demonstrating the songs for me, and then we went to different studios with different bands and tried recording the songs in different ways, and none of them were as interesting as what he played in the living room for me, and that's what ended up being the album. For many people, because they went to the s- the issue and expense of going into the studio with musicians, the studio version would be the album. In our case, it's like, "What's the best of what we have?" Well, actually, that original homemade demo-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:49:10 Yeah

Rick Rubin 1:49:10 ... was more interesting than the produced version.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:49:14 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 1:49:14 So we put out the homemade demo version.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:49:20 Is it possible for there to be a perfect album?

Rick Rubin 1:49:28 I don't know. There, there are some that when I listen to them, they feel perfect to me. And, and when I say perfect, like perfect in its, with all of its imperfections. Like perfect for what it is.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:49:39 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 1:49:39 You know, for me, when I listen to The White Album, it feels like I wouldn't change anything. You know, I mean, not that I could, but that [laughs] when I listen to it, it's like-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:49:47 Yeah

Rick Rubin 1:49:47 ... that's how that goes. There's a D'Angelo album called Voodoo that I love. I wish I made that album. It's a beautiful album, and that one, when I listen to it, it's like there's nothing else like that. It's so good.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:49:59 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 1:50:00 There, uh, Love Forever Changes is one that, um, when I listen to, it's, uh, it's a unique, one-of-a-kind album. No one made an album before it or after it like it, and it's magnificent.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:50:14 Yeah. So interesting you said to you.

Rick Rubin 1:50:19 Yeah. It's only to me.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:50:21 Exactly. It-

Rick Rubin 1:50:22 It's only me

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:50:22 ... can only ever be.

Rick Rubin 1:50:23 No, there's, and it's no, there's no, and I'm sure that, that there are many fans of, you know, their favorite artists made albums that are, that in their mind are perfect, and it's great.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:50:32 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 1:50:32 It's great.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:50:33 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 1:50:33 It's own- We all have our own stories, you know? It's nothing, nothing is true. [laughs] It, it's how we perceive it.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:50:42 I've struggled with perfectionism a lot of my life.

Rick Rubin 1:50:44 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:50:44 And, um, I've, I've again f- I, I, I keep bringing up how this podcast has changed my life.

Rick Rubin 1:50:51 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:50:52 One of the things it's done that I haven't mentioned so far is it's helped me to embrace imperfection.

Rick Rubin 1:51:00 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:51:01 Because on these long form conversations, it's not about perfection. Actually, if there's a stumble, if you don't quite get your words out the right way, if someone comes in with coffee, it's, I think that's the vibe. You know, it's the, I think, I think podcasts are the modern-day campfire of in a, in a massive way. I think that's why these long form conversations are taking off all around the world. People are feeling a deep sense of connection. And I remember when I was at university at Edinburgh, where I was at medical school, I played in a band, so that's kind [laughs] of a huge focus for me in, in Edinburgh, and we were in this studio near Edinburgh Airport called Split Level, and you know, it was really exciting for us 'cause it's the first time we'd been in a recording studio, you know. So, you know, you're a young band trying to make your way, and oh, this is a studio. And again, I look back now and think I would bring perform- Oh, I'm in, it's in the studio, so it's gotta be a certain way.

Rick Rubin 1:51:56 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:51:56 Which again, is, I didn't realize at the time actually, but it's taking you out of authenticity and into a, some sort of performance aspect-

Rick Rubin 1:52:06 Yes

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:52:06 ... which I thought I needed to do. But I remember there was a, there was a song I wrote called Tell Me Why, and we went in there all weekend. I must have recorded the vocal track 30 or 40 times. Oh, no, it's not quite right, not quite right, and then with the engineer, we went through line by line, picking the perfect line. And the finished version or that iteration probably had 20 different takes in it, each line perfect in its own right. You play it afterwards, sounded awful.

Rick Rubin 1:52:41 Hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:52:42 And I was like, "I don't get it. I think there's 20 perfect lines in there," but the soul was missing. There was just something. So I think I didn't realize it at the time. I can articulate it now looking back. But is that something you've seen happen in the studio before? Is that something you still experience?

Rick Rubin 1:53:01 Absolutely, and we'll, you know, we'll often do multiple vocal takes and put them together, and sometimes it's not about looking for perfection.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:53:10 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 1:53:10 It's looking for the thing that interests you. You know, you're, you're listening for which lines sound interesting and which ones work best together more than is each one perfect.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:53:22 Mm-hmm.

Rick Rubin 1:53:23 But there are lots, there are lots of records where, um, lots of recordings where every line is perfect and they work, you know. If we listen to, uh, Earth, Wind & Fire records are fairly perfect, and they're magnificent.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:53:35 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 1:53:36 [laughs] So again, there's no right or wrong.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:53:38 There's no right or wrong.

Rick Rubin 1:53:39 No.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:53:39 No, for sure. I mean, music has a way of just doing something inside to people that I think very few other art forms can do. Um, and, and I guess we all experience it differently. I've always, like I've always felt I, I viscerally can feel sorts of things in music. I know you've worked with Chad Smith on many occasions-

Rick Rubin 1:54:01 Yes

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:54:01 ... of the Chili Peppers.

Rick Rubin 1:54:02 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:54:02 He's one of my favorite drummers, and for me, when I hear, I've always felt this, like Chad can play what is seemingly a 4/4 rock beat, but I feel like he's talking to me-

Rick Rubin 1:54:20 Yes

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:54:21 ... through that. Any other drummer or drummers I know would play it, it would just sound like a very metronomic, um, static 4/4 rock beat.

Rick Rubin 1:54:30 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:54:31 But Chad seems to bring it alive as if those drums are talking to me, like he's having a conversation with me. And I remember when I saw them live in Manchester a few years ago, it was just incredible how... I don't know. What is it you've wo- With him, what do you think it is? I mean, d-

Rick Rubin 1:54:49 It, it, it's unbelievable, and it's true with th- there are the musicians who, who just transcend their instruments. He's one of those people where it, it's, what he's, what he's playing doesn't have to draw attention to itself.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:55:07 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 1:55:07 He can play the simplest thing, yet you can feel it's different than the way-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:55:13 Yeah

Rick Rubin 1:55:13 ... anyone else plays it.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:55:14 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 1:55:14 And it's, and it, it, it just lives in a different way. It's true with, uh, guitar players. It's true with musicians. It's true with great bands.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:55:22 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 1:55:22 What makes a band great usually is the way each of the members feel the music, the differences between each of the way the members feel the music. Like in, um- In Metallica, the drums push ahead of the guitars.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:55:44 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 1:55:44 In AC/DC, the drums lag behind-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:55:47 Yeah

Rick Rubin 1:55:47 ... the guitars. And that's part of the sound of those bands. It's, it's the imperfection. That's what makes it sound. That, that, the tension created by the way each musician interprets the music, and the different timings combined together to make this sound that's bigger than everybody playing it exactly, precisely, correctly.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:56:08 Yeah. I think there's a lesson in that for all of us in our relationships, in, in our lives, in, in so many ways.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:56:15 Rick, you've been public about your struggles with depression-

Rick Rubin 1:56:19 Mm-hmm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:56:19 ... in the past. I wonder if you could sort of talk us through what happened. One of the key elements of that for me is that you have said that you feel more grounded now than you did before you suffered from depression.

Rick Rubin 1:56:43 Yes. Before I suffered depression, I felt more like, um, a sense of, um... This will sound funny, but I think the best way to say, it's like a superhuman feeling of like nothing, nothing, um, nothing could affect me. And once something affected me, it, it's much more r- I would say now I'm more grounded and rooted in reality, where before I might've been more, um... I don't know the right word for it. Yeah, I can't think of the right word, but just n- n- not, um... I wasn't able to empathize as much with other people's problems before because it didn't seem to me like it was possible. Like, I didn't have an understanding-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:57:53 Mm

Rick Rubin 1:57:53 ... of what difficulties felt like because it, it, I was apart from it.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:58:00 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 1:58:01 And when I say that, I still had difficulties, but, but they were manageable. Depression is different than regular difficulties. [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:58:09 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 1:58:10 You know, the, the, there's a difference between not being able to accomplish something you want and feeling hopeless. They're two different things. Or feeling so bad and not understanding why. You know, it doesn't-- the, the thing about depression that's so crippling is that it doesn't make sense. Uh, it, it's not rooted in outward th- my experience of it, it wasn't rooted in what was going on in my world.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:58:37 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 1:58:39 It was just something, um, triggered this emotional response that I'd never had before. And I felt like I was dying. It was a wild experience, and it lasted a long time.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:58:52 It was a comment, wasn't it, made by someone?

Rick Rubin 1:58:53 Yeah, it was just a comment. And it was a comment that anyone else heard the comment in my position would've been like, "Oh, okay, we'll deal with it when we get back." But for some reason, it was, um, it touched a nerve of vulnerability that had never been touched in me before.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:59:10 Was it that, I guess as an adult you'd had huge amounts of success in music right from the get-go-

Rick Rubin 1:59:17 Mm-hmm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:59:20 ... or was it to do with, I don't know, elements of your childhood? Was it happy, peaceful? Was it, did it go without... I think you've said once before that you hadn't really had to overcome many obstacles, so when that happened, you had no tools to deal with it.

Rick Rubin 1:59:34 That's exactly right.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:59:36 So-

Rick Rubin 1:59:36 That's exactly what it was. I, I, I had a-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:59:38 So was it an idyllic childhood?

Rick Rubin 1:59:40 Absolutely. I was an only child. I was, uh, I would say I w- I was spoiled, although I didn't, I wouldn't, I don't know that I necessarily acted spoiled. But I didn't, um... My wants were met-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:59:53 Yeah

Rick Rubin 1:59:53 ... in childhood. And, and then had great success before I even knew that I was started a career. So I wasn't prepared for any type of, um... It's, and I guess w- w- what it really had to do with s- the sense of support. So I always had the sense that my parents supported me in anything that I wanted to do. That's the way they raised me, was like, "You're great. You could do anything, and we will support you to the end of time."

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:00:23 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 2:00:24 And then when I had success in music, the powers that be in music when you're successful are very supportive. [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:00:33 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 2:00:33 So I had this ramp of support, and then when I turned 33, um, someone questioned it for the first time. And again, it was minor. It worked out f- it actually ended up in a better place than it would've been had it not happened. It was all fine. But I just didn't have the, I didn't know how to deal with it, and without even knowing what was happening, 'cause I didn't really know what depression was.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:00:58 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 2:00:58 I didn't know what a panic attack was. I just knew that I couldn't sleep, I couldn't breathe, and I thought I was dying. It was a wild, wild experience.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:01:06 And did you at the time know with your rational mind, this is nothing?

Rick Rubin 2:01:09 No.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:01:10 So it wasn't that you knew cognitively, "This is nothing. I shouldn't be reacting like this, but I am." You just didn't know. Did you feel out of control?

Rick Rubin 2:01:18 Absolutely. But, but not in a way-- it, I felt out of control in a way that I didn't understand. I didn't understand what was happening.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:01:25 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 2:01:26 It, none of it made sense. The way my body was reacting didn't make sense. Felt like I had no control of myself. I had no control. 'Cause again, I can't say that what, what the comment was anything that- ... upset me in the moment. It wasn't like that. It was more of just a, it was like a question mark. But somehow, it, like, planted a seed in me or, or like, um, it's like it let the air out of my balloon.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:01:56 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 2:01:56 That's what it felt like.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:01:59 Do you still consider yourself someone who suffers with depression?

Rick Rubin 2:02:03 I would say I, I can be moody. I, I don't, I- I've not really felt true depression in some time, although I've had two big bouts of it in my life. Th- that first one, and then it happened again years later. Um, not as bad the second time as the first time, and not since. And none since changing my schedule, being in the sun, changing my diet. All of those things really have helped.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:02:34 Oh, wow. So since, obviously we, we talked about it early on in this conversation, since you were with Phil, since you lost your weight, you had the vitality, changed your diet-

Rick Rubin 2:02:42 Yes

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:02:42 ... seen natural light-

Rick Rubin 2:02:44 Yes

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:02:44 ... then you haven't had any since then?

Rick Rubin 2:02:46 No. I will say, I still can be moody, for sure.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:02:51 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 2:02:51 But never like... I don't, I don't think that I crash the way I did.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:02:57 You're well known for doing sauna and cold plunge.

Rick Rubin 2:03:00 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:03:01 Uh, I heard the podcast [laughs] you did with Tim Ferriss a few years back-

Rick Rubin 2:03:04 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:03:05 ... in the sauna.

Rick Rubin 2:03:06 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:03:06 Was that in your house?

Rick Rubin 2:03:07 It was.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:03:08 Yeah. I mean, I, I [laughs] it was pretty awesome listening to it. I w- I was thinking, "How, how is no one burning themselves here or..."

Rick Rubin 2:03:16 It was really, it, it was difficult.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:03:18 Um-

Rick Rubin 2:03:18 It was difficult. And he had it where we were holding the mics, which was insane. So we had the mics wrapped in towels to be able to hold them. And every on occasion you'd touch the metal and, you know, burn your hand.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:03:29 I mean, first of all, why did you elect to do [laughs] that podcast with Tim?

Rick Rubin 2:03:34 Yeah. It was my idea. It was, it was actually my condition for doing the podcast, was I'll do it if we do it in the sauna. And the reason was, um, at that point in time, I hadn't done very many interviews ever.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:03:45 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 2:03:46 And, um, I'd never done a long form interview. And I thought to take away any apprehensions that I have, one of the things that we s- uh, our friends, uh, my friend Gabby Reece, the v- the volleyball player.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:04:00 Oh, yeah. Lads.

Rick Rubin 2:04:01 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:04:01 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 2:04:01 She calls it the truth box. And the, we noticed over time from doing sauna all together, that the conversations in the sauna get really good and really real. And I think any, um, any prot- any protection you have up goes away in the sauna to protect yourself from the heat. So you're so focused on the discomfort of the heat, that what you say is, uh, very pure.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:04:37 The truth box. Oh.

Rick Rubin 2:04:38 Yeah. And I thought, "If I do this with you," and, and I met Tim, but I didn't really know him very well then. I said, "Let's do it in the sauna because I know the conversation will be really real."

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:04:48 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 2:04:48 "So let's do that."

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:04:50 Yeah. That's awesome.

Rick Rubin 2:04:51 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:04:52 I mean, you should have said. We could have turned the air conditioning off at the start.

Rick Rubin 2:04:55 It, it's pretty hot, actually. I'm sweating.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:04:56 It's, it's pretty hot [laughs] so it's, uh... Um, and why do you use sauna and cold plunge? Or like, when did you bring that into your life? Why did you bring it in, and I guess what kind of impact has it had?

Rick Rubin 2:05:08 Um, started in, probably could be as much as 10 years ago now. It-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:05:15 After you suffered with depression for the first time?

Rick Rubin 2:05:18 Much after.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:05:19 Okay.

Rick Rubin 2:05:19 Long after.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:05:20 But was this part of the process of you on this health journey trying to-

Rick Rubin 2:05:23 Yes

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:05:23 ... better?

Rick Rubin 2:05:23 This is after I started training.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:05:26 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 2:05:26 Um, I'd lost the weight. I started training and got invited into a, a sauna with some sports friends of mine, and they would, we would go in the sauna, and this is in the middle of winter, and jump into the ocean after. And I remember being terrified of the whole thing.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:05:41 Mm-hmm.

Rick Rubin 2:05:42 And doing it, and absolutely loving it from the very first time I did it. And found that through these repeated, you know, four rounds of very hot sauna and very cold, um, it had an, it had a euphoric effect. I, I would say I'd never felt better in my life than at the end of a session of sauna and ice. Best mood I've ever been in in my life. And also if there were any, if I had any concerns in life, anything I was worried about, that all went away in the sauna. For sure. N- nothing... After, o- once you get into a practice of getting into an ice bath on a regular basis, nothing else in your life will be a challenge.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:06:34 Yeah. It's super interesting. I'm, you know, I, I, I hear about what happens at Laird's pool.

Rick Rubin 2:06:40 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:06:41 And, you know, I'd love to chat to Laird at some point, or Gabby, 'cause I find it-

Rick Rubin 2:06:45 That'd be great

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:06:45 ... so fascinating what they're doing.

Rick Rubin 2:06:47 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:06:48 Something that, actually, it, as we record this, it's not, it's not been released publicly yet. Um, there's a chap called Erwin Lacor.

Rick Rubin 2:06:57 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:06:57 Um, MoveNat guy.

Rick Rubin 2:06:59 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:07:00 He has got a new breathwork, uh, course. I think it's called breath hold work meditation.

Rick Rubin 2:07:06 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:07:08 And he was running them as live four-week courses.

Rick Rubin 2:07:10 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:07:11 Um, and he did about four or five of those over a few months. Feedback was incredible. I did one of them, and he's gonna launch it online-

Rick Rubin 2:07:18 Fantastic

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:07:19 ... shortly. It is unbelievable. Now, I've done loads of breathwork stuff-

Rick Rubin 2:07:24 Yes

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:07:24 ... in the past. What is different about this, like, just to, just to give a top line overview, I went in. You're meant to do two sessions a week for four weeks with, with Erwin on. And first session, he asks you to take a, you know, without any warning, take a- ... you know, full breath in and hold your breath. And I think I could, I think I was actually in Sweden for the first session. I was there, uh, one of my books had just come out there. I'd just landed, got to the hotel. I could just do a minute-

Rick Rubin 2:07:54 Mm-hmm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:07:54 ... for breath hold. Four weeks later, and I didn't even do both sessions twice a week, I held my breath for four minutes 30.

Rick Rubin 2:08:03 Incredible.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:08:04 In four weeks.

Rick Rubin 2:08:05 Incredible.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:08:06 And that was absolutely not a physiological adaptation.

Rick Rubin 2:08:11 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:08:11 It was all the mind.

Rick Rubin 2:08:12 Wow.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:08:13 And, and what, why I feel this practice is so phenomenal, a bit like what you just said about the colds.

Rick Rubin 2:08:19 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:08:21 Basically you get to the point where your body is screaming for you to take a breath-

Rick Rubin 2:08:26 Yes

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:08:26 ... which is one of the most primal, um, you know, signals for survival.

Rick Rubin 2:08:33 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:08:34 In that moment, he helps you learn how to quieten your mind.

Rick Rubin 2:08:38 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:08:38 So it's not about holding on, it's actually can you get still? Can you get quiet? Can you almost get into a deep meditative state?

Rick Rubin 2:08:46 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:08:46 And then you think you need a bre- you've still got another minute to go.

Rick Rubin 2:08:49 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:08:49 A minute and a half. And I do many things for my wellbeing, but I, I reckon you would [laughs] love this course.

Rick Rubin 2:08:56 It sounds fantastic.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:08:57 It's... And I, having done loads of breathwork courses, this is very different.

Rick Rubin 2:09:01 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:09:02 And it's been life-changing.

Rick Rubin 2:09:03 That's great.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:09:03 Like, I feel if you can control your mind when your body's-

Rick Rubin 2:09:07 Yes

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:09:07 ... screaming-

Rick Rubin 2:09:08 You feel empowered

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:09:09 ... you feel empowered anywhere.

Rick Rubin 2:09:10 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:09:10 You think, "Oh, the train's late. Oh, okay."

Rick Rubin 2:09:12 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:09:12 "Oh, they're shouting at me. Okay."

Rick Rubin 2:09:13 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:09:13 "No worries."

Rick Rubin 2:09:14 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:09:14 Uh, so is it, would you say the cold's an element of that?

Rick Rubin 2:09:16 Absolutely. Mental toughness.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:09:18 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 2:09:18 Mental toughness. And being able to stay in it is purely mental tough- it's not, has nothing to do with the physical.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:09:25 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 2:09:25 It's all mental.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:09:26 It's all mental.

Rick Rubin 2:09:27 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:09:29 Out of all the things that you've done for your health and wellbeing over the years, which are the most important ones, would you say, for you?

Rick Rubin 2:09:38 I would say, um, eating animal protein, sleeping on a cold bed. So that's either, uh, the Sleep8 or the ChiliPad. Either, either one of those or the Ooler. The-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:09:51 Yeah

Rick Rubin 2:09:51 ... those are the choices. And sauna and ice. And I, and I suppose, uh, whatever physical practice-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:09:57 Yeah

Rick Rubin 2:09:57 ... I'm doing. And meditation. Th- that's another key.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:10:00 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 2:10:01 Those are the-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:10:01 Basics-

Rick Rubin 2:10:01 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:10:01 ... which people have known for years, right?

Rick Rubin 2:10:03 That's, that's it.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:10:04 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 2:10:04 That's it.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:10:05 Yeah. Fascinating.

Rick Rubin 2:10:06 And I think actually the diet, the, the reason I, I say diet first is if you exercise and don't diet, it seems to mean practically nothing. And if you diet and add exercise, it, it, it multiplies.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:10:26 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 2:10:26 It's like it ch- it changes everything. So I would say it's 90%, it's 90% diet, 10% exercise, but if you do the 10% exercise you get 50% of the bonus. [laughs] D'you know?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:10:39 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 2:10:39 It's like it's, it's all out of... It, the, the numbers don't make sense.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:10:42 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 2:10:42 The numbers don't make sense.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:10:44 It's non-linear, isn't it?

Rick Rubin 2:10:45 No, no, no. But the, I would say diet first, then exercise, and then the, the extra bonus things. But sleeping on cold is really profound. Really profound. Have you experimented at all?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:10:56 I have actually. I've tried the eight sleep once as well.

Rick Rubin 2:10:57 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:10:57 I thought it was brilliant.

Rick Rubin 2:10:58 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:10:59 Um, when you have that cold bed.

Rick Rubin 2:11:00 It's amazing.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:11:00 And what I love that you can alter for your partner as well.

Rick Rubin 2:11:04 Absolutely.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:11:04 So different temperature.

Rick Rubin 2:11:05 And you can sleep with a blanket and be cozy-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:11:08 Yeah

Rick Rubin 2:11:08 ... and still keep your body cool. Um-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:11:11 Yes

Rick Rubin 2:11:11 ... I sleep much deeper on a cold bed and I like that.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:11:14 Do you bring anything with you when you're traveling to try and replicate that?

Rick Rubin 2:11:17 No. Uh, well, I, in the different places in the world, I have houses in different places and I, I have cold sleeping in all the places that I live. But on this trip I don't have it, and it's, and my sleep is falling apart.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:11:30 There you go.

Rick Rubin 2:11:31 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:11:31 To the point where you might [laughs] bring something with you next time?

Rick Rubin 2:11:34 I don't know. It's big to bring.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:11:35 Big to bring.

Rick Rubin 2:11:35 It's like I have to figure out a way.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:11:36 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 2:11:37 I have to figure out a way. I'm hoping it gets to the point where it's popular enough where they'll just be everywhere.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:11:42 Yeah. I'm sure it will soon.

Rick Rubin 2:11:44 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:11:44 Um-

Rick Rubin 2:11:45 Be nice, like a biohacking hotel that has only red lights at night and, uh-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:11:49 Oh, man. The, the, the lights in hotels at night.

Rick Rubin 2:11:52 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:11:52 The bane of many people's existence.

Rick Rubin 2:11:54 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:11:54 The bright lights.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:11:56 Could I ask you a bit of advice?

Rick Rubin 2:11:57 Sure.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:11:58 Always feel a bit cheeky asking, but I guess it's not in private. [laughs] It's wh-

Rick Rubin 2:12:04 That's fine

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:12:05 ... whilst the microphones are running.

Rick Rubin 2:12:06 That's fine.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:12:09 You know, if someone had told me when I was 14 I'd be sitting face-to-face with you, the, the, the, the teenage Rangan probably wouldn't have believed it.

Rick Rubin 2:12:18 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:12:18 And over the past few years, I've realized that, um, I wrote a section in my last book about worshiping the wrong heroes, that this idea of hero worship is fundamentally flawed. It's an idea I'm, I'm kind of really working on at the moment, maybe for my next book. I think it's problematic 'cause we only see one element of these so-called heroes.

Rick Rubin 2:12:40 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:12:40 You know? We, you know, we think we wanna play golf like Tiger Woods, but if you wanna play golf like Tiger you also probably have to have the broken marriage, the painkiller addiction, the public humiliation. All, all, all those things come with it.

Rick Rubin 2:12:53 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:12:53 Not just the, the little bit you want. So, but I've, I've sort of let go of a lot of that over the past few years. And having met a lot of high profile and famous people and realizing that everyone's [laughs] got the same issues-

Rick Rubin 2:13:07 Yes

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:13:07 ... and everyone's as insecure.

Rick Rubin 2:13:08 We're all humans. We're all humans.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:13:09 Everyone's a human.

Rick Rubin 2:13:10 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:13:10 It kind of helps you with that and-

Rick Rubin 2:13:12 Absolutely

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:13:12 ... and stop, and stop elevating people. But I, for much of my life, wanted to be a musician. So, um, I think even at third year at uni I took a year out to do immunology and I came back at Christmas, I told my mom and dad, um, I said, "I'm quitting. I'm going on the road with a band." And I don't think I really meant it. I think I was trying to get a reaction and, oh boy, I got a reaction.

Rick Rubin 2:13:34 [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:13:35 Uh, certainly from my dad.

Rick Rubin 2:13:37 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:13:37 And my mom managed to, uh, keep the peace and said, "Why don't you just finish your immunology degree, then you can go..." You know, she was just trying to stall me. And, um, a huge part of my life in Edinburgh was playing in bands, uh, and writing. And do you know, I remember when I left Edinburgh, came back to Manchester, I recorded my, like a solo EP and, you know, there's a great radio station called XFM. One of the singles ended up being single of the week. So, you know, low grade elements of, you know, in inverse commas, success, but no record deal, nothing like that.

Rick Rubin 2:14:09 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:14:09 And, um, I actually don't believe that would've been the right career for me anyway. I feel that I have found my true calling over the last six or seven years, you know, pretty much since my dad died. And I've looked at my life and now what I do in medicine with my podcast, with my books, I feel is a form of art and creativity that allows me to use the skills and practices I've learnt to share with people, which helps me and also helps them. But over the last few years, uh, Rick, it's been niggling away at me that there's a part of me which is a songwriter-

Rick Rubin 2:14:47 Yes

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:14:48 ... that is unexpressed.

Rick Rubin 2:14:50 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:14:51 And I think it's really become clear over the last two weeks because as part of my research for this conversation, I've been delving into albums I haven't heard in years.

Rick Rubin 2:15:02 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:15:02 Blood Sugar Sex Magik, Wildflowers, uh, it's just been such a joy, and I'm feeling that visceral connection again to music. But the problem, Rick, in my head, and I guess I'm asking you as an invisible, now a visible life coach-

Rick Rubin 2:15:20 Mm-hmm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:15:20 ... I feel I've changed since I used to write songs. I think when I used to write songs, I was very derivative.

Rick Rubin 2:15:28 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:15:28 I think I was trying to be someone. You know, when I was 13 or 14, I wanted to be John Bon Jovi. That's all I wanted to be. Like, I literally wanted to be him, and I think-

Rick Rubin 2:15:37 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:15:37 ... some of my intonations-

Rick Rubin 2:15:39 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:15:39 ... you know, like many British people, we put on an American accent when singing-

Rick Rubin 2:15:45 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:15:45 ... 'cause I don't know why. Is it softer? Is it less harsh? And now when... 'Cause I recently have been picking up the guitar again. I've got some verses going. I've got some things going, and I'm like, "That's pretty good." And but I, I feel that I've got old patternings in my voice that I don't feel are authentically me. So I have a real struggle-

Rick Rubin 2:16:09 Mm-hmm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:16:09 ... through my podcasting and, uh, literary career.

Rick Rubin 2:16:12 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:16:13 I feel particularly with my last book, I found my voice and-

Rick Rubin 2:16:16 Yes

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:16:16 ... who I am.

Rick Rubin 2:16:17 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:16:18 But I don't feel, and again, I'm probably being harsh on myself, but I don't feel that my singing voice-

Rick Rubin 2:16:24 Yes

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:16:25 ... is in the same place. If an artist [laughs] came to you with this sort of quandary, uh, what might you say to them?

Rick Rubin 2:16:35 I would say if you found your writing voice on your fifth book, we can learn from that. So it sounds like by the time you get to your fifth album, you'll find your voice vocally, and it's not gonna happen without doing the work. So, so, uh, I would suggest that you write and record as much as you can all of the time, and instead of thinking of it as, um... Think of it as a hobby. Just think, "My hobby is I'm gonna write and record songs." And then there'll come a time through that process where you'll look back and go, "Hmm. I think this batch is ready to share with people." Lu- luckily, you're, you're not, um, you're not obligated to share anything because you're sharing the podcast, and you're sharing the books-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:17:25 Yeah

Rick Rubin 2:17:25 ... and you're sharing your medical practice, so it truly can be a personal hobby until it, until it grows into something more than that, which it will naturally do by itself, but it won't happen without doing the work. And it's only gonna be the work that's gonna make it happen.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:17:42 Yeah. And do you think that element we were talking about before about beware of the assumption that the way you work is the best way simply because it's the way you've done it-

Rick Rubin 2:17:53 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:17:53 ... I'm thinking, like, should I... Again, uh, is this procrastination? Should I get a different guitar which won't maybe lead me to those old patterns? Should I, instead of the usual chords I would use to-

Rick Rubin 2:18:07 Mm-hmm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:18:07 ... song write, do I put a capo halfway up and actually try and shake things up?

Rick Rubin 2:18:12 Try it all.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:18:12 Try it all.

Rick Rubin 2:18:13 Try all of it. Try writing a song on the piano. Try doing all those things.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:18:16 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 2:18:16 See what happens. Try, uh, f- go, go on a service that has beats and do, you know, go on SoundCloud-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:18:24 Yeah

Rick Rubin 2:18:24 ... and find a beat you like and write to that beat.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:18:27 So totally shake it up completely.

Rick Rubin 2:18:29 Tr- try things. See s- surprise yourself with what works for you.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:18:38 I, I, I just, I love that advice, and, um, it's advi- it's advice that I literally will put into practice immediately.

Rick Rubin 2:18:50 Beautiful.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:18:50 And, um-

Rick Rubin 2:18:52 You'll definitely learn through the pra- You know, you'll learn b- both through successful and failed experiments. Like, each one-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:18:58 Yeah

Rick Rubin 2:18:58 ... will get you closer to where you're going, and it's, it's impossible to know until you try-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:19:03 Yeah

Rick Rubin 2:19:03 ... as many things as you can try, and you'll be surprised. And you'll say, "Oh, these, these three things are all kind of good. I've never done them these way before," or, "The old way is still the best," or you, you-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:19:14 Yeah

Rick Rubin 2:19:14 ... you won't know. There's no way to know. Um, and you also will s- find out what's most fun. Like, what, where, where you... What part of the discovery process is most exciting to you, and that might work its way into it sounding a particular way if you're engaging in it in a way that, um, sparks something new in you out of the excitement of the way that it's happening.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:19:41 Yeah. So much to think about. It's, it's really something that I just can't shake at the moment, and I feel... I'm, I don't regret not playing as much for the last six or seven years.

Rick Rubin 2:19:54 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:19:54 Uh, I've still got with my band, a covers band, in Chamonix in France, and we'll go and play two or three gigs every winter.

Rick Rubin 2:20:00 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:20:01 Yeah, but that covers, you know, and that's nothing wrong with that.

Rick Rubin 2:20:04 No, no, no.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:20:04 People are having a good time. We enjoy playing.

Rick Rubin 2:20:06 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:20:07 But I do feel-- do you feel there's a limit to creativity? Um, I, I... What I mean by that is I have told myself over the past few years, "Oh, Rangan, you're using up your creative energy," and I know this as I say it, so I, I guess I'm bringing it out into the open-

Rick Rubin 2:20:25 No

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:20:25 ... to, yeah, uh, in my books and my podcast, so I don't have much left-

Rick Rubin 2:20:30 No

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:20:30 ... for songwriting.

Rick Rubin 2:20:31 No, no, no. No, you may not-- you may run out of energy, but not creativity. You know, you may be too tired, but that's all. Not, not the-- in some ways, the more you engage in, in different creative practices, the better they all get.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:20:47 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 2:20:47 They all get better. The thing that taps out first is just energy. You know, you run out of steam-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:20:54 Yeah

Rick Rubin 2:20:55 ... but not, not out of ideas or creative spirit. That, that's, uh, it's eternal and forever. [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:21:03 I feel very honored that I've had, uh, some visible life coach advice from you about that. I will be sure to let you know how it goes.

Rick Rubin 2:21:10 Yeah, I'm excited to hear.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:21:12 Um, I've said it enough times, but I'll say it again, Rick. This, this is, it's just wonderful, this book. I, I treasure it so, so much. Uh, I've got this early copy on a, on a abound, you know, printed out papers with all my scribbles in, but the actual copy is just beautiful. Um, you got no quotes on the book.

Rick Rubin 2:21:33 No.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:21:34 And, uh, you were, you were saying just before we started recording that that was intentional.

Rick Rubin 2:21:39 It was intentional from me, and I was happy that the, uh, publishers went along with my wish. Um, most books have quotes on them, and quotes are a, a marketing tool, and it seems like if you put, uh, if you put marketing information on a, on something, it makes it a product, and I don't really think of it as a product, so-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:22:03 Yeah

Rick Rubin 2:22:04 ... that was the, the thought.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:22:07 Many different chapters in this book. Are there any that come to mind as ones that, "Yeah, that's the one. That's the one that really helped me," or helped you, you know?

Rick Rubin 2:22:21 No, I'm, I'm continually surprised by it as I've had to read it to give, you know, m- either to read it to understand the editor's notes or read it to give my notes of things that I think can be improved. I'm surprised by so much of the information in the book, and it's not, um, it doesn't live in the front of my mind. So, it's, uh, it came through a lot of, um, searching, and so much of the information is intuitive. Yet, when I read it, it's like, oh yeah, it is like that [laughs] . You know? Like, that's, that's my relationship to it is it's, um, it's ha- it's a hard thing to describe. It's, it, it, the, it's the best version of seven years of thought that's not there now.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:23:16 Yeah. Rick, I don't know what else to say, but thank you. Um, I'm drawn back to the intro again. Nothing in this book is known to be true. It's a reflection of what I've noticed, not facts so much as thoughts. It is gonna help so many people. It, it, it really is. It's certainly helped this man already-

Rick Rubin 2:23:40 Wow

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:23:40 ... in the past two weeks, so thank you for that.

Rick Rubin 2:23:42 Amazing.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:23:43 Um, thank you for, first and foremost, making the art that moved you.

Rick Rubin 2:23:49 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:23:50 That's a key lesson for me, and, um, Rick, it's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you.

Rick Rubin 2:23:56 My pleasure. Thank you. [upbeat music]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:23:57 If that conversation resonated with you, here is another incredibly powerful one that I really think you're going to enjoy.

Rick Rubin 2:24:03 When you encounter that real you, you wake up to creativity. You wake up to love. You wake up to compassion, truth, goodness, beauty, harmony, insight, imagination, creativity, vision. You wake up to a higher calling