Happiness Expert REVEALS The Common Habits DECREASING Your Lifespan! | Dacher Keltner

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 0:00 You have been researching-

Dacher Keltner 0:02 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 0:02 ... lecturing, teaching happiness for many, many years now.

Dacher Keltner 0:07 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 0:07 As things stand in 2023, how do you think about happiness?

Dacher Keltner 0:14 That's a terrific question. You know, um, people have been thinking about happiness for millennia, and since we started thinking about the human condition, one of the first questions that always arises is, you know, what, what's the point of this? Why am I happy? What makes me happy? And I started teaching it 25 years ago at UC Berkeley, and then online, and tens of thousands of people and, and I think that at the time, um, we, uh, were in the middle of this, this era that is really an era of, you know, economic expansion and weren't really aware of the climate crisis and, and happiness was really about individual purpose, uh, individual pleasure. Um, how do I experience pleasure dining out or gardening and so forth? And I think right now, Rangan, to answer your question, I think, uh, given the times, people are looking for new ideas about happiness, and as a result, you know, um, people think about happiness in terms of emotions like gratitude, social connections, pleasures, and now there's this new concept of meaning, right?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:19 Mm.

Dacher Keltner 1:20 Like, do I understand the purpose of my life, and how do I enact it? So I think about happiness right now as the quest for meaning.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:31 This idea, th- this quest for meaning, I, I went to India in December, and I hadn't been back for quite a long time, and as a kid, because my parents are Indian immigrants to the UK, we used to go every other summer for six weeks and play with our family and our cousins and it was... They were, they were happy times-

Dacher Keltner 1:54 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:54 ... but I haven't been for a number of years now, and I went in December. And a couple of things you just said there really speak to me, Dacher, which is, you mentioned economics-

Dacher Keltner 2:03 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:03 ... and how, how does that play a role in happiness?

Dacher Keltner 2:08 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:09 But you mentioned also meaning-

Dacher Keltner 2:11 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:11 ... and I'm drawn to the story of the doorman at my auntie's place.

Dacher Keltner 2:15 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:16 Right? I remember, you know, when, when the taxi from the airport pulled up and I smiled and said hi, and he directed me, and I would chat to him for the next few days whenever I was going for a walk. And he's someone who doesn't have that much economically. Certainly-

Dacher Keltner 2:31 Yeah, yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:31 ... we compare it to the West, but he had a job.

Dacher Keltner 2:34 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:34 He, he seemed to enjoy his job. He, he knew what his role was, where he fits in, and I got to know him over those few days, and then occasionally he'd be, uh, at the, at the tea stall opposite the gate.

Dacher Keltner 2:48 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:48 Which is, you know, these are very, um, it's a rich part of the, the kind of experience in the city called Kolkata.

Dacher Keltner 2:55 Uh-huh.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:55 Usually called Calcutta.

Dacher Keltner 2:56 Uh-huh.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:57 And, you know, every now and again, he'd be there with these little clay teapots. He would just be, um, chewing the fat with his buddies and-

Dacher Keltner 3:05 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 3:06 ... smiling, and there was a real simplicity.

Dacher Keltner 3:08 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 3:10 And I don't wanna speak for him in terms of how happy he really was-

Dacher Keltner 3:13 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 3:13 ... but he certainly struck me as someone who was happy. So we didn't have much materialistically.

Dacher Keltner 3:19 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 3:19 Right? But I think meaning, I think he knew what his meaning was. Does anything in that speak to you?

Dacher Keltner 3:26 Oh, that's, that's 20 years of, I believe to be the most important discoveries in the science of happiness, which is, you know, early on we started to ask questions like, "How much does money really matter?" And, you know, 20 years ago, 30 years ago, you ask somebody in the UK or the United States, and they're like, "The point of life is to make money and to expand my wealth." Uh, and it turns out, uh, as your doorman reveals, the, the money matters a little, matters for really poor people, but not that much. It's not as big a contributor to, well, happiness as you might imagine as we think. Um, what matters is social connections, being embedded in a culture or a community that you feel part of, like your doorman, and your example illustrates. And, you know, one of my favorite findings in the happiness literature is that social connectedness gives you 10, 10 years of life expectancy. It just is good for your body, right? Um, and as a result of these discoveries of like, money doesn't matter as much, the more I commute, the less happy I get. Right? I, I buy the nicer home, and now I'm commuting 40 minutes each way, like a lot of people do. Uh, undermines my happiness. The pressure on high school students or, or teenagers to find materialism, uh, doesn't bring them happiness. It undermines their happiness, and so as a result, we're looking to other examples like your doorman's example of like, what is it about his sense of his place in the world, his interactions on a daily basis that gives him happiness? And I think that's a, the, a future of, of the field.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 5:07 Do you think the commonest misconception then about happiness is money, economics, that we need more money to be happier? And I'm very conscious, Dacher, as we-

Dacher Keltner 5:20 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 5:20 ... discuss this.

Dacher Keltner 5:21 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 5:22 Across the world, many people are feeling the pinch.

Dacher Keltner 5:25 I know. I know.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 5:26 Right? There's a cost of living crisis. You know, we're coming into the UK, we're still in winter, we're coming out of winter. There's certainly the early-

Dacher Keltner 5:33 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 5:33 ... sense that spring's on its way.

Dacher Keltner 5:36 [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 5:36 Right? But people have struggled.

Dacher Keltner 5:39 Yeah. No, I know.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 5:40 So if anyone's pushing back and going, "Yeah, easy for you to say"-

Dacher Keltner 5:43 No, I know

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 5:43 ... right?

Dacher Keltner 5:44 Absolutely.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 5:44 "But I'm struggling to pay my bills."

Dacher Keltner 5:46 Right.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 5:47 How, how do you approach that with them?

Dacher Keltner 5:49 Well, I always say, and this is in the empirical literature, that money matters a lot if, if you don't have it, you know? And if you get An extra 100 pounds, uh, a month, it means paying the food bills feels different.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 6:01 Mm.

Dacher Keltner 6:01 It means giving your kids some new sh- you know, football shoes is different. So money matters if you're poor, and in the United States, one in six people are below poverty, and money matters enormously. And when, you know, policies in Biden's administration, administration led to more money for the poor recently, their, their life expectancy was boosted, right? And immediately, uh, things were changed. So money matters for the poor.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 6:25 Mm.

Dacher Keltner 6:25 But for a lot of people, it doesn't matter as much as they think.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 6:28 Yeah.

Dacher Keltner 6:28 Right?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 6:29 Life expectancy's come up a couple of times.

Dacher Keltner 6:31 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 6:31 You mentioned-

Dacher Keltner 6:32 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 6:32 ... uh, the relationship between loneliness-

Dacher Keltner 6:35 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 6:35 ... and life expectancy. You just mentioned now-

Dacher Keltner 6:38 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 6:38 ... how economics can play a role in life expectancy.

Dacher Keltner 6:42 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 6:43 And I know from some recent data that-

Dacher Keltner 6:45 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 6:45 ... it does appear that in the US, and maybe in some other countries, life expectancy is starting to go down.

Dacher Keltner 6:50 It's mind-blowing. Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 6:51 So what's the relationship between happiness, the things that we could do to create more happiness, the things we're not doing, right? Which is why many of us, I feel-

Dacher Keltner 7:01 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 7:01 ... don't feel happy and content these days. What's the relationship between that and our lifespan, would you say?

Dacher Keltner 7:08 Yeah, you know, Rangan, I have been privileged to teach this science of happiness, of gratitude and compassion and forgiveness and laughter and pleasures and meditation to really skeptical audiences, including one you're familiar with, medical doctors, you know. [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 7:24 [laughs]

Dacher Keltner 7:25 25 years ago, and they'd look at me and like, "Who's, who's this long-haired guy from Berkeley? I don't believe this." And I always led with life expectancy findings, you know. And there are two lessons there. One is practicing gratitude, getting outdoors for a walk, giving, serving, giving to charity matters for your life expectancy. Uh, the big reviews suggest the more happiness you cultivate, it's about 200 studies, you get about seven or eight years of additional life expectancy.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 7:55 Mm.

Dacher Keltner 7:55 Social connection, 10 years. That is comparable to smoking, drinking vodka, and eating red meat, right? And a lot of people ask me, "Well, if I get happy when I smoke and drink vodka and eat red meat, does it wash out?" [laughs] You know? Uh, but the, it's really important. And then the second thing that's really exciting for me, as a scientist is, we're starting to understand the neurophysiological pathways of that, right? So, you know, if I feel awe, for example, it activates the vagus nerve, it calms inflammation, it helps my heart, it deactivates stress regions of the brain, the amygdala. So we're starting [laughs] to get a picture, a really clear picture of how finding happiness is good for your body. Um, and I'm, uh, really excited. That's why Vivek Murthy, our surgeon general-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 8:47 Yeah

Dacher Keltner 8:48 ... he's the, the first surgeon general, most important medical doctor in the United States, to say, "This has to be our, our new in- set of initiatives."

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 8:57 Yeah, I spoke to Vivek a couple of years ago-

Dacher Keltner 8:58 Right

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 8:58 ... when his book came out on this podcast-

Dacher Keltner 9:00 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 9:00 ... and it was a, it was a really quite profound conversation with him.

Dacher Keltner 9:03 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 9:03 Um, you of course are in the UK. You're in my studio at the moment-

Dacher Keltner 9:07 Yes

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 9:07 ... to promote your brand-new book, Awe: The Transformative Power of Everyday Wonder. Now, first of all, it's a sublime book.

Dacher Keltner 9:15 Mm. Thank you.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 9:16 It's really got me reflecting about life, the point of life, you know, where I fit-

Dacher Keltner 9:26 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 9:26 ... into the web of life.

Dacher Keltner 9:28 Wow. Well put.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 9:30 And, you know, I think connecting happiness and the things we've just been talking about to the topic of awe-

Dacher Keltner 9:38 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 9:38 ... I- I've got a, a line, I've got lots of scribbles in the book-

Dacher Keltner 9:43 [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 9:43 ... which is a sign that I like a book.

Dacher Keltner 9:45 Thank you.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 9:45 Right? And I wanna read this to you. Y- you wrote, "Awe occurs in a realm separate from the mundane world of materialism, money, acquisition, and status signaling, a realm beyond the profane that many call the sacred."

Dacher Keltner 10:01 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 10:03 It kind of relates to what we've just been talking about.

Dacher Keltner 10:05 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 10:05 Like happiness or what does not make us happy.

Dacher Keltner 10:07 Yeah, yeah. You know, um, a lot of attention in the field of happiness was interested in this transactional world, right? How do I do better at work, or, um, how does money influence my wellbeing? How do I enjoy a good wine, et cetera? Although that can be sublime. And, um, but there is this space that scientists had been hesitant to study of, and even to use the words like sacred, sublime-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 10:35 Mm

Dacher Keltner 10:35 ... spirit even, um, where this is a world where we feel connected to, uh, as you nicely put it, um, Rangan, you know, the web of life, the larger systems we're part of. And, and that's what awe is about. It's about l- sort of pointing us to these big areas of meaning, like tending to people who are suffering or redressing injustice or finding beauty or finding my point in, in life, um, and, and finding some sense of what is beyond, um, transactional values and money and the like of the sacred. And so I used-- I'm glad you brought out [laughs] that language because I was trying to stir our culture to think, like, we're in this moment of reflection worldwide with climate crises and democracy and, you know, the, the pinch that a lot of people are feeling, falling life expectancies in the United States. So let's get back to what really matters and what you intuitively would say, "That's sacred." For me, it really calls to mind, like, backpacking with my daughters, you know, getting out in the woods and, uh, and having those conversations with friends that your doorman has that-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 11:50 Mm-hmm

Dacher Keltner 11:50 ... that you can't put a price to.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 11:52 Yeah. How do you define awe?

Dacher Keltner 11:56 Yeah, that, [laughs] that was hard, you know? And, and, you know, there are centuries of efforts to define awe. Uh, but I really was inspired by this great Irish philosopher, Edmund Burke-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 12:07 Yeah

Dacher Keltner 12:07 ... who wrote a revolutionary book, uh, when he was 27, and he said, "Awe is about powerful things that are obscure, that you can't make out," right? And I then relied on contemporary psychological science to say, just intuitively, awe is vast, it's like you encounter something that's beyond your frame of reference, and mysterious. I love the word mystery in the definition. Like, I can't, I can't figure out why a young student would give away all their money to help an unhoused person eat, which I just saw a few days ago in Berkeley, California.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 12:44 Yeah.

Dacher Keltner 12:44 So it's vast, encounters with vast mystery, and it's an emotion we feel in the moment, awe. Descartes felt it was a basic state of mind that then unleashes wonder and generosity and curiosity.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 13:01 Yeah. You say it's an emotion.

Dacher Keltner 13:04 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 13:06 When your book first arrived, I, I sat with this idea. I thought, "Do I think awe is an emotion or what I have initially thought it was an experience?"

Dacher Keltner 13:17 Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 13:18 And then I thought, "Is it even important? Does it even matter-

Dacher Keltner 13:20 [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 13:21 ... whether we call it an experience or an emotion?"

Dacher Keltner 13:23 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 13:23 So why, why, why do you say that awe is an emotion?

Dacher Keltner 13:26 Yeah. I say it's an emotion because there's this great tradition, uh, that continues to this day of, you know, the philosopher David Hume and Adam Smith, and some of the East Asian traditions, the Hinduism and Tibetan Buddhism, who really feel, and contemporary studies of consciousness like Mark Solms, that the mind and how we experience the world, when you move through the day and you're like, "Uh, what does the world mean to me?" The meaning is found in our emotions or f- subjective feelings, like you said, Rangan.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 13:59 Mm.

Dacher Keltner 13:59 Like, I feel awe about this, or I feel anger or fear. Um, those are basic states of the mind-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 14:06 Mm

Dacher Keltner 14:06 ... and our relation to the world. And we have a rich scientific tradition, uh, beginning with Darwin, to understand the emotions, um, with lots of tools of science that are in the book.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 14:17 Yeah.

Dacher Keltner 14:18 Uh, nerv- nervous system and expression and the like.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 14:20 I mean, we'll get to some of those-

Dacher Keltner 14:22 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 14:22 ... uh, scientific benefits or scientific discoveries that you found when trying to study this. But one idea that I've really enjoyed reading about, I've heard some of your other interviews-

Dacher Keltner 14:33 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 14:34 ... but also something I'm thinking deeply about and writing about at the moment is, like, are we as a society getting bogged down-

Dacher Keltner 14:44 Mm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 14:44 ... too much with, "What does the science say here?" Right?

Dacher Keltner 14:48 Yes. Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 14:49 Uh, and I love the fact that-

Dacher Keltner 14:51 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 14:52 ... it's quite hard to define awe, that we can't give it a precise-

Dacher Keltner 14:56 We can't

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 14:56 ... definition. I kinda love that because I think-

Dacher Keltner 14:58 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 14:58 ... would it not be boring if everything full of wonder in life we can clearly articulate-

Dacher Keltner 15:05 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 15:05 ... this is what is going on?

Dacher Keltner 15:06 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 15:07 Do you know what I mean? I kind of-

Dacher Keltner 15:08 Oh, yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 15:08 ... it, and it's-

Dacher Keltner 15:09 Fundamental

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 15:09 ... yeah. And I think I, I, as I say, I love the fact that we can't define it.

Dacher Keltner 15:13 Yeah. You know, and, and I have to tell you, Rangan, I mean, I, when I started writing this book, you know, we had tons of data and great papers, you know, building on this definition of awe-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 15:22 Mm

Dacher Keltner 15:22 ... as a vast mystery, and I, like you, I was like, it's still... it doesn't capture-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 15:30 [laughs]

Dacher Keltner 15:30 ... the essence of this experience, which I believe, like Einstein-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 15:35 Yeah

Dacher Keltner 15:35 ... is the fundamental experience. And so, frankly, what I had to do, which was unusual for me as a lab scientist, is go gather stories, you know?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 15:44 [laughs]

Dacher Keltner 15:45 And go to prisons and talk to ministers. I'm not a religious person. I'm like, "Oh my God," you know?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 15:50 Mm.

Dacher Keltner 15:50 And talk to, you know, um, activists and environmentalists and veterans, just like... A- and also gather stories from 26 countries.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 15:59 Yeah.

Dacher Keltner 15:59 Like, write about it. And I think, I think with the stories in the book, we get a little closer.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 16:03 Yeah.

Dacher Keltner 16:04 But, but, but we're still not... It's always a mystery.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 16:07 A- and I think we should embrace that.

Dacher Keltner 16:09 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 16:09 I think we should embrace that.

Dacher Keltner 16:10 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 16:10 You know, one thing, like I, I'm a medical doctor, right?

Dacher Keltner 16:13 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 16:14 And for, well, since 2008, I was practicing general practice, and one of the big differences between general practice and specialism, for me at least, was that we as GPs have to get really good at sitting with uncertainty, right? You know, a lot of the time we have small amount of time. Uh, we don't have access to all the tests that maybe-

Dacher Keltner 16:42 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 16:42 ... the hosp- our-

Dacher Keltner 16:43 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 16:43 ... hospital colleagues have, and so we have to manage uncertainty. And I thought this is a fundamental difference because in the hospital you might be able to investigate, do this test, have a, have a lot more certainty.

Dacher Keltner 16:54 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 16:54 And I think, of course, humans like certainty-

Dacher Keltner 16:58 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 16:58 ... but I think there's something about being able to sit with uncertainty. I mean, one of the eye-opening things for me when reading your book was you've really broadened out my definition or my perception of what awe is.

Dacher Keltner 17:13 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 17:13 Honestly, like if someone had said to me before reading your book, "When do you experience awe?" I probably would've said, "In nature."

Dacher Keltner 17:21 Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 17:22 Right? And I don't know what your experience has been going around the world talking about this.

Dacher Keltner 17:26 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 17:26 But you show that yes, nature is one way to experience awe, but there's eight ways [laughs] that you've defined. So I came to the conclusion that, oh wow, awe is around me every single day-

Dacher Keltner 17:42 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 17:42 ... in possibly every single interaction if I can train myself to see it.

Dacher Keltner 17:46 Yeah, yeah. Yeah, y- you know, thank you for bringing into focus, I think, the two biggest surprise that, that, surprises that blew my mind, you know? We... I, too, like, awe is nature, you know, we're Western European. Then I thought, ah, I know the spiritual traditions, awe is spirituality and mysticism. And so we, we gather these stories from 26 countries, from Mexico to India to the UK to, you know, Poland, et ce- all over the world, and awe comes to us through eight paths, um, which I call the eight wonders, and I'll just quickly... The moral beauty of people, their kindness and courage. I teach medical doctors, and once they think about this, they think, "Wow, I r- just gave a patient a terminal diagnosis, and they held my hand and said, 'Thank you for, for what you do.'" That's moral courage and beauty. Nature. Collective movement, you know?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 18:41 Mm.

Dacher Keltner 18:41 And what I love about this is, like, sports fans, like Arsenal fans or, you know, they're like, "I love... Sports are almost spiritual," and that's-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 18:48 Yeah

Dacher Keltner 18:48 ... because of awe. And then you get to the culture ones, which are music, visual design, and spirituality. And then the two, Rangan, that really caught me off guard, epiphanies, big ideas. Like, you know, wow, the web of life, your phrase. That's the central idea in evolution, right?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 19:09 Mm-hmm.

Dacher Keltner 19:09 That Darwin was blown off the map by. We're all part of this, what he called a tangled bank of life. We're all interacting, different species. And then the, the final one, life and death.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 19:19 Mm.

Dacher Keltner 19:19 You know that... You know, Rangan, when I started teaching awe eight, 10 years ago to audiences with people over the age of 55, there would always be a hand that would raise, and the person would say, you know, "I felt awe holding my sister's hand when she died," you know, and just looking at that mystery, feeling it. And so lo and behold, around the world, we really get into a state of awe thinking about life and death.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 19:50 I- if someone's listening to this at the moment-

Dacher Keltner 19:53 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 19:53 ... Dacher, or, or watching it, this, this conversation we're having and thinks, "This is all really interesting. Sure. You know, it's, it's, it's interesting for me to learn about awe-"

Dacher Keltner 20:06 Yeah, yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 20:06 ... "but I'm busy."

Dacher Keltner 20:07 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 20:07 "I got stuff going on in my life. Why does awe matter to me?"

Dacher Keltner 20:12 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 20:14 How do you respond?

Dacher Keltner 20:15 Yeah. You know, um, I... Teaching happiness for 30 years to every imaginable audience, th- that's often the question, right? Rightfully so. And it gets more poignant. You know, every time I teach a large group of people about happiness, I'll have a mom come to me, especially post-pandemic, and they're like, "You know, my 17-year-old son is in real deep distress, and what do I do?" And I turn to the science of happiness, and I say, "Man, find some social connections. Get them outdoors," you know? Get, give them a way to find meaning or reflect on life, and now awe. Um-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 20:56 Mm-hmm

Dacher Keltner 20:56 ... you know, the science that I, the, the health science and the, you know, awe hel- redu- helps your immune system, reducing inflammation, helps your cardiovascular system, activates vagal tone, reduces activation in the amygdala, a threat-related region in the brain, helps you think more clearly and more creatively, f- makes you feel like you have less stress in life. For 75 years old and older, it makes you feel less physical pain, right? I could go on. I mean, these are all studies where five minutes of awe, and I love your phrase of, like, "Hey, wait a minute, maybe it's around me a lot" [laughs] . Five minutes gives you, uh, that suite of benefits that I think are comparable to anything you can do, no kidding. Um, and, and we didn't know that, and now it's starting to spread, right?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 21:46 Yeah.

Dacher Keltner 21:46 Just to be thinking about, where are those five minutes of awe?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 21:49 Yeah. I love that answer.

Dacher Keltner 21:52 Well, you're a medical doctor. [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 21:54 Yeah.

Dacher Keltner 21:54 And that's what matters, you know?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 21:55 I, I'm a medical doctor, but I'd also describe myself as, um, a curious human.

Dacher Keltner 22:01 [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 22:02 And which doesn't always fit with medicine sometimes-

Dacher Keltner 22:05 I know

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 22:05 ... particularly with the way we're often encouraged to practice it these days.

Dacher Keltner 22:09 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 22:10 And if I think about the common problems that exist medically-

Dacher Keltner 22:16 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 22:16 ... right, a lot of them are related to inflammation-

Dacher Keltner 22:21 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 22:21 ... the immune system, stress, the amygdala, the threat response part of the brain being overactive, right?

Dacher Keltner 22:27 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 22:28 And you have just basically explained that awe can buffer us against those-

Dacher Keltner 22:35 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 22:35 ... can be an antidote to many of the problems and things that we're suffering from in the modern world.

Dacher Keltner 22:41 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 22:42 So I agree with you.

Dacher Keltner 22:43 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 22:43 Right? Awe is critical. And as I say, and this is something I hope we get to more and more throughout this conversation, it reminds me a little bit of gratitude, not in terms of awe being the same as gratitude, although I'm interested in your-

Dacher Keltner 22:55 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 22:55 ... your thoughts on that or what the crossover is. More that if you don't practice it, you, you don't see where it is. You, you can go through opportunities, you can go through situations in life and not see the gratitude. And one, one of the questions I had-

Dacher Keltner 23:12 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 23:12 ... around awe, Dacher, is-

Dacher Keltner 23:15 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 23:15 ... like, let's say the Grand Canyon, right?

Dacher Keltner 23:17 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 23:18 You could put 10 people, 10 different people in the Grand Canyon, right? And yes, you would hope that everyone would feel awe, but some people possibly wouldn't, right? So it's not the environment that is creating the awe, it's our approach to that environment, right?

Dacher Keltner 23:40 Yeah. You know, it's, it's... That's so important, Rangan, to bring this into our focus here, and I think there are wonderful insights to be gleaned from those eight wonders of life we talked about. You know, we started to find if you ask people, like- Where do you tear up and get the goosebumps and cry and feel awe and, and, and wonder? And, and humans are remarkably varying. It's just a fundamental truth about who we are, and for some people, it's busy cities and the stream of pedestrians. In other people, it is sitting by trees by themselves in the quiet, and for some people, it's classical music, and for other people, Michael Pollan just... You know, when he interviewed me, he's like, "I was just at a Pussy Riot show, and I felt awe." You know?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 24:27 Yeah.

Dacher Keltner 24:27 Punk rock. For some people, it's wild art. For other people, it's still, still lifes, right? We're all varying, and, and, and that's one of the m- mysteries to me of awe, is we find it in such unique ways but also u- universal ways, right? That, um... And music's a great case study of that, and I think our, you know, our audience should be asking this question of themselves, which is, think of a time when you last got goosebumps and teared up at a piece of music. And most people have had that kind of experience, right? Have you had one?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 25:07 I have, um, on many occasions in my life. You know, music's a huge part of me. It always has been, and there's this... Well, I was listening to it this morning, actually.

Dacher Keltner 25:20 Wow.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 25:20 There's a, there's a song by the Augustana singer Dan Layus-

Dacher Keltner 25:23 Uh-huh

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 25:24 ... called, uh, Call Me When You Get There. I think it's one of the most beautiful songs I've ever heard.

Dacher Keltner 25:30 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 25:31 It's absolutely gorgeous, and this idea, you know, call me when you get there-

Dacher Keltner 25:38 Mm-hmm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 25:38 ... he goes through various verses. Once it's about, you know, him as a dad and his daughter leaving when she gets to 18.

Dacher Keltner 25:44 Ah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 25:45 Then it's, like, him speaking to his partner maybe when they're 70, 80. It's... Every time I hear it, I almost feel it. I, I have cried before listening to it.

Dacher Keltner 25:57 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 25:57 It makes me think, I can't even imagine my daughter at 18 leaving home.

Dacher Keltner 26:02 [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 26:02 Do you know what I mean?

Dacher Keltner 26:03 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 26:03 So yeah, I was actually listening to that song this morning.

Dacher Keltner 26:06 Oh.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 26:06 So c- do I experience it? Yeah, but what's really interesting, again, is that we may not perceive that as awe.

Dacher Keltner 26:14 Right.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 26:15 But now you're saying it. It's like, yes, that is awe.

Dacher Keltner 26:18 Because what you just portrayed, and this is a story of awe, is the vastness of music, how it projects you across time.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 26:26 Yeah.

Dacher Keltner 26:26 It leads you to think about what it's like to be 80, think about your daughter being an 18-year-old, so that's vast. It's mysterious how this, how the mind derives meaning in this way from patterns of sound waves. And what's... But, but the striking thing is that's awe for Rangan, right?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 26:42 Yeah.

Dacher Keltner 26:42 I haven't even heard that song, but I understand you, and in fact, when you told the story, I got kind of teary [laughs] thinking-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 26:48 Yeah

Dacher Keltner 26:48 ... about it because, because stories of awe reveal, to your point, we all have our pathways to awe, and I think the eight wonders are useful. And we can all understand other people's pathways when cast within this broader framework of what humans find in awe, right?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 27:06 Yeah.

Dacher Keltner 27:06 That we... I have songs like that that, like, do the same thing for me.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 27:12 In the chapter on music-

Dacher Keltner 27:13 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 27:14 ... there was a kind of line that I, I really, really paused on and thought about. Music locates individuals within broader cultural identities.

Dacher Keltner 27:27 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 27:29 I never really thought of music in that way before. Um, but what, what exactly do you mean by that?

Dacher Keltner 27:36 God. You know, you're doing a very deep and careful reading, Rangan, so [laughs] that's a hard question, right? So, so let's, let's take a couple of, of, uh, ideas out there in this new study of music. Um, and the one really comes from this philosopher Susan Langer, uh, who said that art and music somehow express life patterns, right?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 28:03 Mm-hmm.

Dacher Keltner 28:04 So you hear music and you say, "This is about beauty or love or courage or failure or justice." You hear Bob Dylan or hip hop, and it's like, "That's about justice," right?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 28:17 Mm-hmm.

Dacher Keltner 28:18 So the, the life patterns are contained within music in ways we're just beginning to understand, how they sound and the lyrics and the acoustic structure of the song. And we hear that, and we as individuals, and this is back to meaning, right? We as individuals care about certain things. We care about beauty or justice or, or transcendent knowledge, whatever it is, and, and it's contained within music. And then suddenly we hear a song and it moves us, and we can't explain why. And we become part of a community, right, that's oriented around those meanings.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 28:56 Yeah.

Dacher Keltner 28:56 When I first went to college, you know, and I grew up for a part of my high school years, teenage years in the United States i- in a really poor rural town near the mountains, and all it was was, like, head banging rock and roll. [laughs] And I first heard Brian Eno's ambient music. I... And it was slow-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 29:17 Mm

Dacher Keltner 29:17 ... quiet. I was like... I had profound awe 'cause it taught me, like, there's this meditative, reflective world that this music contains that I could be part of.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 29:30 Yeah.

Dacher Keltner 29:30 So it connects us to communities of meaning.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 29:33 I mean, in terms of take-homes for the audience-

Dacher Keltner 29:35 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 29:35 ... these are not just theoretical ideas. These are ideas that we can practice and take part in immediately 'cause... To make sure you're taking action after watching this video, I've created a free Breathing Guide that's gonna help you reduce stress, calm your mind, and boost your energy. In this guide, I share with you six really simple breathing practices that work immediately. Even just one minute a day will start to make a big difference. To receive your free guide, all you have to do is click on the link in the description box below. I cannot believe that there's anyone- ... listening right now who has not connected with music at some point in their life-

Dacher Keltner 30:19 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 30:19 ... but maybe they feel that their life is full of stress, maybe they're low mood, maybe they're, they're rushing around the entire time, they don't feel they have any time for themselves. But what if that part of our conversation encourages someone to go, "You know what? I've not heard that album in a while. I've not heard that song that I heard-

Dacher Keltner 30:39 Exactly

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 30:39 ... when I was 16, and it really made me feel like this." If they then go and download that song or, you know, if you're a bit old school like me, take the CD out or whatever and re-listen-

Dacher Keltner 30:50 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 30:51 ... that's awe. That can have all-

Dacher Keltner 30:53 Totally

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 30:53 ... kinds of benefits, can't it? Just that connection again to that visceral emotion.

Dacher Keltner 30:57 And thank you for reminding us of how accessible and powerful music is and, and its revelation of awe. Um, when during the pandemic, 30% rise in depression and anxiety worldwide, um, I got called by Spotify. Uh, and they're, they were like, "Oh, there's this awe scientist at Berkeley," like, and they said, "You know, it's interesting, like we're studying people's listening patterns during this really hard, isolated time," and people were listening to music, like you're saying, Rangan, like, "What's the music that makes me tear up and makes me feel like this is why I'm here?" And they were listening for that, for awe in the music. Um, you know, I, um, recently went through a really hard time in life, uh, with my brother passing, and one of the things I did is exactly what you suggested. You know, I was stressed and not sleeping, in g- in grief, uh, thinking about my brother I was close to, and I was like, "I got 10 minutes a day. I'm gonna find the music that just sustains me," you know? And it was certain songs by The Beatles and Sufjan Stevens, who's got this kinda spirituality to his music, and Brian Eno's ambient, you know, and, and whatever offshoots. And I would encourage our listeners, you know, awe sounds sublime and ineffable or hard to find. It's very easy to find. Listen to music for awe. What, what gives you rushes of goosebumps? And, and that will bring you benefits.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 32:27 The, the, the goosebumps-

Dacher Keltner 32:29 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 32:29 ... don't have to be just positive and happy, do they?

Dacher Keltner 32:33 No, no.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 32:34 You can even listen to someone in pain and misery.

Dacher Keltner 32:39 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 32:39 You know? What do they say? Sadness can often breed the sweetest songs.

Dacher Keltner 32:43 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 32:44 We can listen to that and connect to a pain, but it still has benefits, right?

Dacher Keltner 32:49 Totally, and this was, you know, [laughs] thank you for bringing this up, Rangan. Um, awe is a complicated emotion. It's a mysterious emotion. Uh, it's hard to define. And one of the... You know, when I gathered these stories of awe in the book, so many of them were about struggle and suffering-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 33:07 Mm

Dacher Keltner 33:07 ... and pain, you know? So Lewis Scott, a prisoner who's a friend, I used to visit and still visit him, trying to figure out, how do you bring beauty into a prison, you know? Um, Stacy Bear, an, a veteran, finding awe out of the trauma of combat. And then a lot of people who watch other people pass away or get sick, or medical care providers-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 33:27 Mm

Dacher Keltner 33:27 ... are like, "There is wonder and awe in tending to suffering," right?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 33:33 Yeah.

Dacher Keltner 33:34 And, and that astounds me about awe, is it emerges out of grappling with hardship very often and inspires the mind to be like, "How can I be a little, how can I make things a little better?" Right?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 33:48 Yeah.

Dacher Keltner 33:48 "What can I do to build community here?"

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 33:52 The, the chapters you wrote on life and death really-

Dacher Keltner 33:54 Mm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 33:55 ... was very moving. I was reading it in bed last night, and, um, I thought we could probably do the whole two-hour conversation-

Dacher Keltner 34:02 Mm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 34:02 ... just on death. It was that powerful.

Dacher Keltner 34:04 Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 34:05 I definitely wanna come to that shortly. Just to sort of maybe tie up music-

Dacher Keltner 34:11 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 34:11 ... the, so, a- again, that's a powerful chapter just on music.

Dacher Keltner 34:15 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 34:16 But one of my favorite chapters was the one a little bit earlier on collective effervescence.

Dacher Keltner 34:20 Yes. [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 34:21 One of my favorite terms. I discovered it a couple of years ago.

Dacher Keltner 34:24 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 34:24 There was a New York Times article on collective effervescence.

Dacher Keltner 34:27 Really?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 34:27 Yeah.

Dacher Keltner 34:27 Cool.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 34:28 That's the first... And I shared it on my newsletter-

Dacher Keltner 34:30 Uh-huh

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 34:30 ... and I thought, "Wow, what a cool term." I'd never heard of that before.

Dacher Keltner 34:34 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 34:34 And then when I open up your book and it's like, oh, you've written a chapter on this.

Dacher Keltner 34:38 [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 34:38 Right? So perhaps you could explain what that is. It's that, it's one of those categories-

Dacher Keltner 34:44 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 34:44 ... of awe.

Dacher Keltner 34:45 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 34:45 Right? What is it? How can people experience it, and why is it so beneficial?

Dacher Keltner 34:52 Thank you for calling attention to that. It, it, you know, it, it was something that emerged in our studies. Very hard to study scientifically, collective effervescence. Um, a- but it emerged as a, just a surprising way to find awe. Uh, that is a term that the French sociologist Emile Durkheim coined-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 35:12 Mm

Dacher Keltner 35:13 ... when he was trying to figure out, like William James did and others, like, "What is the core subjective feeling of religion?" And he called it collective effervescence, and it's when you start moving in unison or you're synchronizing your movements. Think of a ritual in a church, clapping, cheering at a football game, dancing together, uh, you know, doing rituals before a basketball game. M- collective movement. Then you start to realize collective movement makes you have a shared consciousness, so you're all thinking about the same thing.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 35:50 Yeah.

Dacher Keltner 35:50 The religious figure leading the ritual, the soccer, the football players on the pitch, you know? Um, the movements at a concert, the, the band singing and you're all cheering.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 36:00 Mm-hmm.

Dacher Keltner 36:00 A political speech, right?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 36:02 Yeah.

Dacher Keltner 36:03 And then emotion starts taking over where, you know, and the feeling... I'm, I'm gonna ask you in a second, Rangan, tell us about a collective effervescence experience, because it's profound, where people are like- I got this rush of chills. I was crying. I was almost g- ecstatic. I was feeling like I was one with everybody around me.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 36:25 Mm-hmm.

Dacher Keltner 36:25 And that's collective effervescence, which is movement, attention, shared attention, and then this electric feeling that moves over you that makes you feel like you're united. So tell me, do you have a collective effervescence-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 36:37 I mean, yeah

Dacher Keltner 36:37 [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 36:38 I, I do. And, and, but I'm also realizing in my life currently-

Dacher Keltner 36:46 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 36:46 ... that I don't really engage in collective effervescence in the way that I used to.

Dacher Keltner 36:54 Yeah. [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 36:55 Right? And it... So that's one of the powerful things to me about your book, is it really made me reflect on, wow, I used to go to... I've probably been to thousands of gigs in my life. I-

Dacher Keltner 37:06 Seriously?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 37:07 Yeah.

Dacher Keltner 37:07 [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 37:07 I'm a musician. I have always sung, played multiple instruments.

Dacher Keltner 37:12 Uh-huh.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 37:12 I was so into rock-

Dacher Keltner 37:15 [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 37:15 ... uh, as a teenager.

Dacher Keltner 37:17 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 37:17 I've been to so many concerts and, you know, the first image that comes up is being at a big stadium rock concert and the, you know, the drums start playing and everyone's clapping.

Dacher Keltner 37:26 [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 37:27 You know, and you... But it doesn't matter who the people around you are. It doesn't matter their political persuasion. It doesn't matter what they're tweeting about. Frankly, tw- social media didn't exist back then, thankfully.

Dacher Keltner 37:39 [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 37:39 And you all come together.

Dacher Keltner 37:41 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 37:41 You're all there and having a shared experience.

Dacher Keltner 37:43 It's astonishing.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 37:44 Yeah. So concert. You know, I used to, again, be very much into football or soccer.

Dacher Keltner 37:49 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 37:49 Um, I'm not anymore, actually. I've fallen out of love with it for a variety of reasons.

Dacher Keltner 37:54 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 37:54 Um, but I used to be obsessive, and I was at the Champions League final in 2005 where-

Dacher Keltner 38:01 Mm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 38:01 ... Liverpool came back from 3-0 down to win the Champions League on penalty shootout-

Dacher Keltner 38:06 [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 38:06 ... for the first time. And I remember the feeling in the stadium, the feeling in the plane on the way home. We all felt as though we were floating on air-

Dacher Keltner 38:14 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 38:14 ... from being part of that communal experience.

Dacher Keltner 38:16 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 38:17 So I mean, those are two things that come to mind.

Dacher Keltner 38:19 Yeah, they're wonderful.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 38:20 But I would definitely say that there's a, a deficiency-

Dacher Keltner 38:23 Yes

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 38:23 ... of collective effervescence in my life at the moment.

Dacher Keltner 38:27 Yeah. Well, and parenting and, you know, as you head into the middle of life can do that to you. And collective effervescence is really for the young people finding their place in culture. But to your question, you know, one of the amazing things about thinking about these as contexts of awe, which they are, um, is they, this allows us to find the deeper meaning in these wonderful venues. Like people, there are studies that suggest that, you know, your football team is, is almost on par with a church. It gives you that much meaning and sense of community-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 38:59 Mm

Dacher Keltner 38:59 ... and sense of history, right? Following music and going to musical venues. Um, I love the, the work on sort of in- sort of spontaneous forms of collective effervescence, um, that, you know, people observe, like pedestrians moving through streets and being at festivals or farmers markets, right? You start to sense, like, wow. You know, I was just with my daughter Natalie at a farmers market, what we call a farmers market in the United States, uh, in, um, it was on, it was on this really wonderful area, in this wonderful area in London, and it felt there was collective effervescence. We were all moving together, getting the, the street Indian food-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 39:40 Yeah

Dacher Keltner 39:40 ... sharing it in a park, right? That was awesome. And, and so this framework of awe starts to allow us to see the richness of these ev- common venues of, of awe that we can enjoy.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 39:52 Have you heard of Parkrun?

Dacher Keltner 39:54 No.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 39:55 Parkrun... And whilst you're in the UK, I'd encourage you to look it up and check it out.

Dacher Keltner 39:59 [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 39:59 Maybe even participate in, in one. It's a phenomenal movement-

Dacher Keltner 40:03 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 40:03 ... that is transforming lives.

Dacher Keltner 40:05 Nice.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 40:06 I don't know how many. There's probably hundreds and thousands now in the UK and around the world. It's basically every Saturday morning-

Dacher Keltner 40:11 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 40:13 ... local to you in a park. There is a five-kilometer, um, ac- it's not a race, it's a 5K event. And people come together, uh, in communities, and they complete 5K, right? Some people are running it. They're trying to run really fast. Other people are walking it at the back. And they have a philosophy, you know, no one comes last. There's always a tail walker.

Dacher Keltner 40:37 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 40:38 And people can come and volunteer, and I've had patients in the past who-

Dacher Keltner 40:43 Oh

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 40:43 ... just the volunteering helped them massively reduce their depression.

Dacher Keltner 40:47 Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 40:47 Sometimes completely get rid of it, actually.

Dacher Keltner 40:49 Incredible.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 40:51 Uh, so I think I never really thought about Parkrun through the lens of collective effervescence.

Dacher Keltner 40:56 Uh-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 40:57 But it is, right?

Dacher Keltner 40:57 Yeah. I mean, you know, the Greek Olympics began with, like Parkruns, where people ran together. It's about moving in unison together and feeling-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 41:05 So, so why is it awe? So why, why, why does going to a Parkrun for many people give them a sense-

Dacher Keltner 41:13 Right

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 41:13 ... of awe?

Dacher Keltner 41:14 Terrific question. And, and that's, you know, we've mulled over that for 15 years, right?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 41:19 [laughs]

Dacher Keltner 41:19 And, and it won't give everybody awe, but for the person who realizes this is striking. Think about this movement of Parkrun and how many people are involved in it and, and, and how we move together.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 41:32 Yeah.

Dacher Keltner 41:32 And suddenly you have the sense of how mysterious it is that this brings me this kind of joy, how vast it is in the people involved, right? And that's-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 41:40 Yeah

Dacher Keltner 41:40 ... very typical of collective effervescence. I- a couple of examples, um, that have come to me in doing this work, one is singing together. There are all these singing groups out there.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 41:52 Yeah.

Dacher Keltner 41:52 And when I give talks on awe, someone always comes up with tears in their eyes, like, "You've got to study choirs 'cause-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 41:58 Yeah

Dacher Keltner 41:59 ... it's all collective effervescence," right? Um, and, and, you know, a lot of the... It's interesting, a lot of the informal, um, sort of h- help your body movements like yoga, 20 million people practice yoga in the United States, and a lot of it's collective effervescence. You're doing motions together, your attention is shared, and you start to feel this joy.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 42:21 Yeah. Uh, uh- I really appreciate you sharing that. One of the things that I've been, I guess, concerned with a little bit for a while-

Dacher Keltner 42:30 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 42:30 ... and I've just come back from the Middle East where I was giving a few talks and, um, you know, a lot of people are struggling to find that sense of community.

Dacher Keltner 42:40 I agree.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 42:41 And one of the things I said, literally a few days ago at, at one of my talks was, "Look, what do you like doing?" Okay, someone said, "Yoga." I said, "Okay, you like yoga." And one of the big problems over the last few years is that because of some of the restrictions-

Dacher Keltner 42:54 Yeah, yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 42:55 ... that have taken place over the past few years, a lot of this stuff has gone online.

Dacher Keltner 43:00 I know.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 43:00 Right?

Dacher Keltner 43:01 I know.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 43:01 So sure, let's take yoga as an example.

Dacher Keltner 43:03 Yep.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 43:04 You know, for many people, a phenomenal practice that helps them physically, mentally, emotionally, for sure. And a lot of people now in, in our bid to save time and be more-

Dacher Keltner 43:16 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 43:16 ... efficient, right? We, we go on the, the Zoom class.

Dacher Keltner 43:20 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 43:21 Uh, we do a, a 10, 15-minute YouTube video.

Dacher Keltner 43:23 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 43:24 And again, that can have a role, but I say, listen, if that's you-

Dacher Keltner 43:28 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 43:28 ... sign up for a class as well. Do 10 minutes a day on YouTube.

Dacher Keltner 43:32 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 43:32 Sure. That's great, but make sure once a week you sign up and you go to the class because you're gonna meet other like-minded people. That's gonna help. You know, that's one of the tips I give people who are struggling with loneliness is what are you... You know, what hobby do you have? What passion do you like? Is there a local class? Go there.

Dacher Keltner 43:49 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 43:49 You'll meet other people like you.

Dacher Keltner 43:50 Yeah, yep.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 43:51 Right? So what is your view on that, you know, in respect to what we've been talking about-

Dacher Keltner 43:54 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 43:54 ... so far, loneliness. We're struggling to be happy. We... You know, awe, it's a very clear message throughout your book that one of the powerful, um, qualities of awe is that it takes us outside of ourselves-

Dacher Keltner 44:11 Yes

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 44:11 ... to something much bigger and greater.

Dacher Keltner 44:13 Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 44:13 Right? And, you know, if you're depressed, that's what you need.

Dacher Keltner 44:16 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 44:16 You, you, you're stuck inside yourself thinking... Again, I say that with compassion, right?

Dacher Keltner 44:21 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 44:21 I'm not, I'm not... I, I'm definitely not being critical. I'm saying-

Dacher Keltner 44:24 No

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 44:24 ... we need to help people get outside themselves.

Dacher Keltner 44:27 Yeah. Wow, what a profound observation. And you've just, you've just spoken to a very important empirical question. Does solitary activity on Zoom compare to collective activity of the same thing? We know in the education world it does not, and Zoom classrooms for most people are, are a disaster. Uh, you need the collective mind-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 44:48 Yeah

Dacher Keltner 44:48 ... and, and so forth. Yeah, I, I love your recommendation, Rangan. I mean, the... Jane Goodall, awe, she th- saw it in chimpanzees. It, it ma- it is the beginning of our sense of spirit because it g- it allows us to be amazed at things outside of ourself. And the central challenge of the mental health crises of today is too much self-focus.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 45:13 Yeah.

Dacher Keltner 45:14 And we're not gonna find awe with Zoom and smartphones where we're... You know, we gotta get with other people. Um, you know, I was with a minister, um, a couple of weeks ago, um, who's in the book, Malcolm Clements Young, a remarkable mind, and he said, "You know," um, and I suspect this is true of a lot of the domains that you refer to, "you can pray by yourself, but there's something about praying with people who are praying with you-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 45:43 Mm-hmm

Dacher Keltner 45:43 ... together," he said. And, and there's a lot of spiritual traditions around that, meditating together, you know, playing ping pong with other groups of people, doing dance together, doing yoga together. There's no substitute, and the answer for that is awe, that it-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 45:58 Yeah

Dacher Keltner 45:58 ... it makes you realize your collective. Like Jane Goodall said and you said, "I'm amazed at things outside of myself."

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 46:07 Another story comes to mind for me a- as you, as you say that. On the plane home a, a, a few days ago, I watched a documentary. I don't know if you've heard of the British band Oasis.

Dacher Keltner 46:21 Of course.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 46:22 Yeah, so-

Dacher Keltner 46:22 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 46:23 ... there was a documentary on their kind of iconic concerts. In 1996, they played somewhere called Knebworth.

Dacher Keltner 46:31 Uh-huh.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 46:31 And you know, very few bands had ever played there. I think Led Zeppelin had. Maybe the Rolling Stones had.

Dacher Keltner 46:37 Uh-huh.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 46:37 But very few bands could pull off playing at such a large venue.

Dacher Keltner 46:42 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 46:42 And you know, they played for two nights. There were 125,000 people each night, so a quarter of a million people. But what was profound about the documentary was I think 2.5% of the UK population tried to get tickets. Something happened. There was something going on in the '90s, this sort of hope. Um, you know, they, they sort of paint the picture in the documentary of what, what else was going on in culture, and Oasis really seemed to ride on that wave.

Dacher Keltner 47:10 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 47:11 2.5% of the population tried to get tickets.

Dacher Keltner 47:14 [laughs] That's really-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 47:14 But what was really interesting is it was a-

Dacher Keltner 47:16 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 47:16 ... they were showing beautifully how this was pre-internet.

Dacher Keltner 47:19 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 47:19 Right? This was pre mobile phone.

Dacher Keltner 47:21 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 47:21 So they had images of people on their landlines, you know, teenagers sitting on the stairs on their landlines pressing the orange redial button. Uh, mates trying to get together saying, "Look, you're gonna try and call there. You're gonna try and call there," people queuing overnight at the ticket sellers to get their tickets.

Dacher Keltner 47:37 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 47:39 And for me, because that was kind of, you know, the sweet spot of where I was into music-

Dacher Keltner 47:44 Uh-huh

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 47:44 ... and I remember those days with all-

Dacher Keltner 47:45 [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 47:45 ... kinds of bands, like queuing for Bruce Springsteen tickets and all this-

Dacher Keltner 47:48 [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 47:48 ... kind of stuff. But what was really powerful is later on, I think Noel Gallagher, the guitar player and songwriter in Oasis-

Dacher Keltner 47:56 Uh-huh

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 47:57 ... said, "Today you just wouldn't get that."

Dacher Keltner 48:01 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 48:01 "Today you'd look out and everyone would be on their phones-

Dacher Keltner 48:04 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 48:04 ... trying to capture it, trying to text someone else saying, 'Hey, look at you here,' trying to show people that I'm here."

Dacher Keltner 48:10 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 48:11 And he said it was amazing. And they were interviewing people who were there saying everyone was focused on the same thing.

Dacher Keltner 48:17 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 48:17 They were all there to see-

Dacher Keltner 48:19 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 48:19 ... this band at the peak of their powers.

Dacher Keltner 48:21 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 48:21 No one was distracted.

Dacher Keltner 48:23 Yep.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 48:24 It, it was just quite incredible and-

Dacher Keltner 48:25 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 48:25 ... it was funny 'cause I was reading your book on the plane preparing for this conversation.

Dacher Keltner 48:29 [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 48:29 And then I watched that documentary. I thought, "Wow, this is collective effervescence."

Dacher Keltner 48:32 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 48:33 Right? This was collective effervescence at a time in the 1990s, and therefore, in relation to what we just said about yoga classes on Zoom, education being done on Zoom-

Dacher Keltner 48:45 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 48:45 ... and now the way we experience life with our phones, you know-

Dacher Keltner 48:51 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 48:51 ... how problematic is it potentially that we are no longer fully present for moments of awe because we're kind of distracted away from them?

Dacher Keltner 49:01 Yeah, yeah. I, I think that could be a show and a book, right? And I think you've just identified one of the critical problems that the new technology's introduced to our lives, is they interfere with collective effervescence. I'll give you just a couple of examples. Parents go to watch their children sing and perform and dance-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 49:22 [laughs]

Dacher Keltner 49:22 ... and they pop out their cellphones and are filming it. So now your awareness is not collectively on the children, it's distributed across these phones. I was recently at a dance party, um, you know, really interesting society, and they had a dance party where everybody danced to their own music, and we were in different rhythms-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 49:42 Mm

Dacher Keltner 49:42 ... banging into each other, you know? [laughs] It was ridiculous. Um, and you could go on. And so, so we, we, this, this sense of shared collective mind so vital to the human prospect I think is em- is imperiled by these kinds of technological, quote, "innovations". But what I will take note of, you know, Rangan, is a lot of our 20-year-olds and 25-year-olds and 30-year-olds feel that viscerally, right? And a lot of collective things are starting to emerge again, and game nights are really popular-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 50:15 Mm

Dacher Keltner 50:15 ... where you play with, with, you know, actual games with people physically present. Listening to vinyl albums-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 50:23 Mm

Dacher Keltner 50:23 ... right, where you get back to that ritual of listening to music together. So it's too strong to, to take out of our experience, and I think it's coming back, so... But, uh, but critical for us to think about.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 50:36 Given that awe then is subjective and we're all gonna experience it in different ways and in different environments, let's just stay on technology for a minute then.

Dacher Keltner 50:47 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 50:48 So we've explained that one potential downside of technology in group settings is that it can take us away from experiencing collective effervescence.

Dacher Keltner 50:57 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 50:58 Okay, I think we'd all kind of recognize that.

Dacher Keltner 51:01 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 51:02 I'm sure all of us have been to an event at some point where you go-

Dacher Keltner 51:06 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 51:06 ... "Wow, this is quite different from how it used to be."

Dacher Keltner 51:09 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 51:09 But can one experience awe through these smartphones?

Dacher Keltner 51:15 Yeah. Well, [laughs] yeah. By the way, I just have to cite one other experience. I went to go see the Mona Lisa recently, you know, and, and it used to be where you'd be with a big group of people looking at the painting.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 51:25 [laughs]

Dacher Keltner 51:26 And now it's mobs of people taking selfies in front of the Mona Lisa.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 51:30 Yeah.

Dacher Keltner 51:30 It's, it's preposterous. Yeah, I really think, and I don't, I don't think... I think it's gonna be really hard, uh, w- when you think about those eight wonders, to really find awe directly from your smartphone. It's too small, doesn't have the vastness just visually, um, and-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 51:48 Well, what if you were to see an image of the Grand Canyon? Okay, so let me, let's just... We- we mentioned the Grand Canyon a couple of times, right? So what if on your latest fancy, um, smartphone with whatever high definition technology-

Dacher Keltner 52:03 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 52:03 ... you're being sold on the latest advert, so in really sharp focus-

Dacher Keltner 52:07 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 52:07 ... you can see everything, right? Why is that not the same kind of awe as if you were there?

Dacher Keltner 52:14 Because you need, you know, awe... But, but there's an important optimistic note here. Uh, for the full experience of awe, you need the vastness, you know?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 52:23 Mm.

Dacher Keltner 52:23 It just, it just traces back to Edmund Burke, power, bigness, vastness. Think about you need vastness that, like your example of music, moves you across time.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 52:33 Mm.

Dacher Keltner 52:34 Wow, I remember what it's like to be a child or an adult or holding my mom's hand, et cetera, and space, and the smartphone can't deliver that. Like, you know, just like the difference between being there seeing Oasis versus watching the same show on a smartphone. But what it can do for you, and I think there's a lot of really interesting work in this, is a lot of awe, and this is very encouraging, comes from remembering things, from stories, uh, that, about that experience that we would share. And there's a lot of work on the power of those stories, right?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 53:10 Mm.

Dacher Keltner 53:10 That's why your story got me tearing up a little. And that the smartphone can do. It can be like, "Hey, here's a piece of music that brought you-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 53:17 Yeah

Dacher Keltner 53:17 ... awe two years ago. Listen to it in a quiet place. Here's a visual design of a building, Sagrada Familia, that makes you feel awe." And, and I think good work will happen in that realm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 53:27 Yeah, because it's, it's not the device itself, it's what you're consuming on it and how you'll consume it. Because as you're saying that, I would like to think, and I, I'd welcome your perspective on this, that this podcast that-

Dacher Keltner 53:41 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 53:42 ... many people listen to each week when they're out for walks-

Dacher Keltner 53:44 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 53:44 ... or they're in their car driving, and I hope that consistently we have thought-provoking conversations that help people think about their life, their health, their happiness, their place in the world.

Dacher Keltner 53:56 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 53:57 If someone is consuming that through a smartphone whilst they're walking, I think we can make a case that that could be inspiring awe.

Dacher Keltner 54:06 Totally. And you know, I, um... And, and in point of fact, like when you talk to people who love podcasts, like my younger daughter Seraphina, she's like, "Oh, I listen to it when I'm walking or when I'm out in the woods."

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 54:18 Yeah.

Dacher Keltner 54:18 Right? So you're giving the context of awe. But one of the really exciting things about awe is it's easy to practice.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 54:25 Okay.

Dacher Keltner 54:25 It may not sound like it, but it is. So when I- Um, teach healthcare providers, which I do a lot of, one of the things they do is they, um, they say, "In... I, I only have 20 minutes for lunch," 'cause as you know, they work very hard and they're busy.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 54:41 Yeah.

Dacher Keltner 54:42 "But I'll go sit in the garden," you know? Or, "I'll go on a walk with my colleagues when I have this next conversation," or, "We will share awe stories in a huddle." And you can do this anywhere, right?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 54:52 Mm-hmm.

Dacher Keltner 54:52 These are little three to five-minute shifts in how we do things, be it eating or sharing a nice quote or, um, an awe story from work that are easy to do, um, and bring us some of the-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 55:04 Mm

Dacher Keltner 55:04 ... benefits of awe.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 55:06 You've done some studies, I think, on something called an awe walk.

Dacher Keltner 55:08 Yeah. [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 55:09 So tell us about that.

Dacher Keltner 55:10 [laughs] And there are thousands of people leading awe walks around the world right now, which makes me really f- grateful. Um, yeah, you know, that study begins actually with the great British tradition of walking, and the Brits walk in spectacular ways, you know? And then Rebecca Solnit, a brilliant writer, did this book on wandering and just how much we derive meaning from walking, and she called it, she really talked about it in terms of awe. Like, when you walk, your body is moving through space, but you feel like you're part of-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 55:45 Mm

Dacher Keltner 55:45 ... the environment, a path, et cetera, and a tradition. And so in our study, we had people who are 75 years old or older, which is a age in the United States where people start to feel more anxious and depressed-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 55:59 Mm

Dacher Keltner 55:59 ... 'cause people are dying around them. Um, and so we just, once a week they went out and, and did an awe walk. They... And I love this because it's really simple. Go to someplace that's a little mysterious and look at small things like this rock on your table, and vast things like-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 56:14 Yeah

Dacher Keltner 56:15 ... your whole studio, right? That's all they did, and they did it once a week for eight weeks. We had a nice control condition, a vigorous a- a walk condition, and our 75 years old- old participants in the awe walk felt less distress. They felt more a- awe over time, and we had them take selfies out on the walk. And their selfies, the self gets smaller and starts to fade off to the side, and they're taking in more of the environment. So they're just aware of what's ar- they're amazed at things outside of themself.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 56:46 Yeah.

Dacher Keltner 56:47 Um, and so, you know, you put that together with a lot of the data on just walking outside to find awe is so good for you, and it's easy to do anywhere.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 56:57 Yeah. There's other studies you write about o- on all kinds of things. I think there was one study in the book about how even a very brief experience of awe-

Dacher Keltner 57:06 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 57:07 ... can make us less narcissistic.

Dacher Keltner 57:09 Yeah. You know, I encourage our audience to do this. You know, in this study, young people, little bit too self-focused, this generation of 20-year-olds. Um, i- they're feeling the pain of that narcissism. We just had them go out, uh, in this experiment and stand up and look at these beautiful trees-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 57:29 Mm

Dacher Keltner 57:29 ... for one to two minutes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 57:31 One to two minutes?

Dacher Keltner 57:31 One to two minutes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 57:32 Got it.

Dacher Keltner 57:33 Look at the leaves, look at the bark, look at how it fades into the sky. Um, and, uh, and we compared it to a control condition, and they were less narcissistic, less entitled. They needed less money, and they were more altruistic. They helped a stranger nearby. One to two minutes, you know? And, and what I do, just thinking practically, is like take one minute to look at a sunset. You know, there's a whole-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 57:59 Yeah

Dacher Keltner 57:59 ... cloud society-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 58:00 Yeah

Dacher Keltner 58:00 ... in the UK. Have you... I don't know if you've heard of it.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 58:02 I, I didn't know about this.

Dacher Keltner 58:03 Oh, yeah. It's a big phenomenon, and I, uh, it's a wonderful book on cloud spotting. Go look at a cloud for, for 45 seconds and study its movements, and suddenly you're like, "Wow, I didn't know they were so dynamic." Little bit of awe-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 58:17 Yeah

Dacher Keltner 58:17 ... and it's easy to get.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 58:18 Well, a couple of things there.

Dacher Keltner 58:19 Okay.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 58:19 In, in my, in my second book, which is called The Stress Solution, I wrote about nature and fractals.

Dacher Keltner 58:24 [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 58:25 And I remember there's a, there's a subheading-

Dacher Keltner 58:27 [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 58:28 ... in that, in that chapter where I think, I think I called it Staring at a Tree.

Dacher Keltner 58:33 [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 58:33 And, and I basically encouraged-

Dacher Keltner 58:34 And they didn't laugh at you?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 58:36 I don't think they did. I think I justified it in the book.

Dacher Keltner 58:38 [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 58:38 But anyway, I wrote that a few years ago. But as you're saying that, it reminds me that one of my recommendations was, you know, don't worry if you can't get out in the wild, you can't get out into sort of, you know, what you consider nature. Just get outside and stare at a tree for a few minutes.

Dacher Keltner 58:52 Seriously.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 58:52 And it sounds as though what you're speaking to is, is saying, yes, you do that, and you're gonna get all kinds of benefits.

Dacher Keltner 58:58 Totally, and you know, when... And then awe starts to surface when you're like... Like the trees I look at in, in California, redwoods, five times as old as I'll ever live. They have these amazing root systems. They're, they're a family. They're plant in circles. So-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 59:12 So, so is... So h- this is interesting for me, right? So you can look at the tree.

Dacher Keltner 59:15 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 59:16 You're just looking at it. Maybe you're not thinking about how old it is. That has some benefits, but what about what you just said, which is if you look at that tree and go, "Wow, this oak tree has been here for 300 years"?

Dacher Keltner 59:29 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 59:29 "Wow, my parents probably saw this, my grandparents-"

Dacher Keltner 59:33 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 59:33 "... my great-grandparents lived through this," it, it again speaks to this, this, this kind of through line, which is it takes us outside of ourselves. It connects us to something much greater than our-

Dacher Keltner 59:43 Mm, yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 59:44 ... individualistic, potentially ego-driven existence.

Dacher Keltner 59:48 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 59:49 So, you know, is it, is it just looking at the tree that's enough, or thinking about that tree, or do we not know yet?

Dacher Keltner 59:56 We, we know a little, and a, and what a spectacular analysis, Rangan. Like, when you, if you just think about time and, and then have some guidance, like you nicely guided us... And by the way, in a lot of contemplative traditions, I was just up in the Himalayas, they do engage in these multi-generational reflections of-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:00:16 Mm-hmm

Dacher Keltner 1:00:16 ... what would your grandparent have thought about this tree, or the great-grandparent?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:00:21 Mm-hmm.

Dacher Keltner 1:00:21 That becomes a source of awe. Like, I, "Oh, I am part of a, a family tradition, a cultural tradition."

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:00:28 Yeah.

Dacher Keltner 1:00:28 What war w- did this tree- Did it, was it born in, right? And what will it be, what will be the world be like when it dies? So yeah, um, we're starting to, to sense that, you know, and that was, uh, part of our awe walk condition or instructions is to get from the small, what does this tree look like, to the vast, right? Whoa, how did this grow to be like this? And that kind of reflective exercise is of going from the small to vast physically or temporally, uh, is, is starting to show some of the benefits that we're interested in. Loved your analysis too. Like, in our, our Western world, we think too much about the individual. We forget the systems that people were part of, the families-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:01:14 Yeah

Dacher Keltner 1:01:14 ... and the culture, and it's awe-inspiring to reflect on that.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:01:17 It, it really is. And of course, nature is a, is a really good way to access that. Um, there was another study I think you wrote about, uh, I can't quite place it now. I think it was about how experiencing awe makes you more humble.

Dacher Keltner 1:01:31 Mm. Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:01:33 Was this the one at Berkeley where the group, one group was looking-

Dacher Keltner 1:01:38 [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:01:38 ... at the tall trees, one group was looking at the science building.

Dacher Keltner 1:01:40 [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:01:40 And then I think you had... I, I think it was this one where the stranger then dropped some pens.

Dacher Keltner 1:01:47 Yeah. [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:01:48 And if you had looked at the tree-

Dacher Keltner 1:01:50 [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:01:50 ... as opposed to the science building, you were statistically more likely to go and help that stranger pick up pens.

Dacher Keltner 1:01:55 [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:01:56 Have I got that right?

Dacher Keltner 1:01:57 Yeah. Nailed it, you know? [laughs] And it's the wonderful work of Paul Piff, you know. And, and it speaks to the science of awe and the challenges of this mysterious emotion, right? How do you get awe in a, a lab? So we started to do a lot of stuff out in the world. We-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:02:11 Yeah

Dacher Keltner 1:02:11 ... we've studied awe at Yosemite and the Great Wall of China, and other people studied in, in mosh pits and, you know, musical venues and the like. And we have a couple of studies on humility. Humility is when you have a realistic assessment of who you are, and you are open to the strengths of other people, right? So if I'm humble about my scientific or right of author accomplishments, and I, I'm appreciate what a brilliant writer a Steve Pinker is or an Andrea Wolfe, right?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:02:42 Yeah.

Dacher Keltner 1:02:42 That's humility. Some people feel we need more of it today when you think... Anyway, I won't comment on the y- ex-president of the United States.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:02:49 [laughs]

Dacher Keltner 1:02:49 But, you know. [laughs] But, so first study, the trees, look up into these vast trees, and suddenly yourself gets smaller.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:02:57 Mm.

Dacher Keltner 1:02:57 You feel humble.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:02:58 Yeah.

Dacher Keltner 1:02:59 We got people at Yosemite, travelers from 42 countries, looking at Yosemite. They drew really small selves as a characterization of who they are. We took other people up into this clock tower on the Berkeley campus. They looked out at the view, and this is a classic source of awe. It's like, "Wow, I see the view of the world." And they not only were more small in themselves, but they, they felt really good about the strengths of people around them, you know, as opposed to envious-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:03:28 Yeah

Dacher Keltner 1:03:28 ... or the like.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:03:29 Awe seems to be the perfect antidote to everything we're struggling with today.

Dacher Keltner 1:03:34 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:03:34 Which a lot of it is simply m- inward focus. Me, me, me. This social media post, how many likes has it got? You know? Even, even take this even further, right? This is something I've... I think one of the downsides of technology for me-

Dacher Keltner 1:03:48 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:03:49 ... is that we can customize everything for ourselves.

Dacher Keltner 1:03:53 Wow.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:03:53 Right? So think about it. 20 years ago, let's say you're in a family, or you have a, a partner, for example. You don't really have the option in the evening to, to individualize and customize your life. Yeah, sure, you could have both read different books, but let's say you'd put the television on.

Dacher Keltner 1:04:14 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:04:15 There's probably one telly, and-

Dacher Keltner 1:04:17 Oh, yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:04:17 ... you have to agree which channel are we going to watch.

Dacher Keltner 1:04:20 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:04:21 You don't have to do that anymore.

Dacher Keltner 1:04:22 No.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:04:22 You can both be sitting there on the same sofa with your device in your own customized worlds-

Dacher Keltner 1:04:28 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:04:28 ... right, consuming your curated content. Great. But again, it's more me, me, me-

Dacher Keltner 1:04:33 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:04:33 ... and it's taking us away from us, us, us. So I think that's interesting to reflect on.

Dacher Keltner 1:04:39 Huge.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:04:40 But this thing about humility.

Dacher Keltner 1:04:41 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:04:42 I, I'd wonder about your perspective on this stuff.

Dacher Keltner 1:04:44 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:04:46 I'm very fortunate to speak to some incredible people like yourself each week on this show.

Dacher Keltner 1:04:50 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:04:51 And two people I've had on in the past who, you know, are widely regarded as the best in their field-

Dacher Keltner 1:04:58 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:04:59 ... right, were the athletes, Eliud Kipchoge, the Kenyan marathon runner-

Dacher Keltner 1:05:03 Yeah, yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:05:04 ... and the, the mountain runner, Kilian Jornet.

Dacher Keltner 1:05:08 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:05:09 Okay? Now, I've spoken to both of them, and they're still considered, you know, you know, one's the greatest road marathon runner possibly of all time.

Dacher Keltner 1:05:17 Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:05:17 One's the greatest mar- uh, mountain runner of all time.

Dacher Keltner 1:05:20 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:05:20 Now, speaking to awe-

Dacher Keltner 1:05:23 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:05:23 ... and the content in your book.

Dacher Keltner 1:05:26 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:05:26 'Cause I've been pondering this for a good few weeks to months.

Dacher Keltner 1:05:31 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:05:31 I pondered, why are those two guests I would consider two of the humblest guests-

Dacher Keltner 1:05:37 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:05:38 ... the two of the most modest people I've ever spoken to on the show. It doesn't mean by the guests weren't, but-

Dacher Keltner 1:05:44 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:05:44 ... for me, I've been really trying to crack this. What is it about those two when they... You wouldn't be surprised if they had ego-

Dacher Keltner 1:05:53 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:05:53 ... given how good they are-

Dacher Keltner 1:05:55 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:05:55 ... and how, uh, celebrated they are around the world.

Dacher Keltner 1:05:58 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:05:58 Whereas if you, if you think of a, a top footballer-

Dacher Keltner 1:06:01 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:06:02 ... or a top basketball player, again, it's not everyone, but you would probably think about a bit of ego that comes-

Dacher Keltner 1:06:07 Totally

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:06:07 ... along with that.

Dacher Keltner 1:06:07 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:06:08 And so I'm thinking, well, is it because, you know, these are long distances, so they bash the ego out of them? You know, at some point, they have to confront themselves and go beyond. Or is it the fact that these guys are out there in nature? They see... They're, they're distance runners, Kilian in the mountains.

Dacher Keltner 1:06:26 Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:06:27 Eliud runs in the Rift Valley in Kenya with his, with his running crew. Like- I mean, I've, I've ... Literally, this, this keeps me up sometimes. I think why are those two so lacking in ego?

Dacher Keltner 1:06:40 Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:06:41 And I, and I think some of the concepts in your book kind of might, might help me explain that.

Dacher Keltner 1:06:45 Yeah, that's a spectacular observation, Rangan. You know, um, we ... Um, you know, when we, when you find people who have been extraordinarily successful, you know, and, um, you know, one of the things ... And your question really raises this, I think, timely and, and really sort of unappreci- underappreciated possibility that hu- humility is really the pathway to enduring success. Uh, and people write about it in the ethics literature, but your examples really bring it to life. Um, I think the runners, you know, and I, I think what they, how they find humility setting world records when the self is, is on the, the victory stand, right? Is almost what I encountered when I interviewed Steve Kerr. And Steve Kerr is a basketball coach in the United States. Uh, he probab- he set a couple of records. Um, he probably will go down as having won more championships, both as a player and a coach-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:07:42 Wow

Dacher Keltner 1:07:42 ... than any player in history, any person in history. He's at, I think 10 now or, or 11. He's regarded as one of the greatest coaches. He'll be Hall of Fame. And when I talk to him about being this athlete, you know, Olympics, NBA champion, et cetera, he's one of the most humble per- people you'll know. And what he talked about is what we've been talking about throughout the, this conversation, which is he is amazed that he plays a sport that puts him into contact with thousands of people, and they're inspired. When he, when he, his team start to really play well, I asked him, like, "How do you know you're really successful?" And he said ... And I was expecting some, you know, coaching wisdom, and he said, "I look around me and the people are dancing, you know? And it, it's just joy." And so when you are a runner like these great runners, and you're part of a history of the sport, that's awe.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:08:37 Mm.

Dacher Keltner 1:08:37 You do it outdoors, that's awe. And then you see the people who are moved by you, that's awe.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:08:43 Yeah.

Dacher Keltner 1:08:43 Right? And suddenly it's like, oh, th- this is a privilege to, to be a runner like this. I wish I could. [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:08:49 Yeah.

Dacher Keltner 1:08:50 It's a great idea, and, and I hope your next book is about that. It's a really interesting idea.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:08:54 Yeah. It's, um ... Thank you for, for sharing your perspective on that. It's just, yeah, as I say, it's just something I've been thinking about, and that's, it kind of lit up in my brain when I was reading your book a little bit.

Dacher Keltner 1:09:04 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:09:04 I thought, "Oh, maybe a part of this-

Dacher Keltner 1:09:07 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:09:07 ... is that they're spending a lot of time in nature."

Dacher Keltner 1:09:10 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:09:10 If you think about Kilian Jornet-

Dacher Keltner 1:09:12 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:09:12 ... he's gonna be in mountains-

Dacher Keltner 1:09:14 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:09:14 ... all the time. I mean, what teaches you how small you really are-

Dacher Keltner 1:09:17 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:09:18 ... than being around these big, vast mountains? That definition, y- you know, what, what is it? The, the, the definition you put in the book was, "Awe is the feeling of being in the presence of something vast that transcends your current understanding of the world."

Dacher Keltner 1:09:31 Yeah, yeah. And that's the challenge of our individualistic times that the athletes find in nature, and we can find it in many different ways. When I interviewed YuMi Kendall, who's one of the great cellists in the United States, and I asked her like, "How, how do you find awe?" You know? And, and she plays the cello to an awe-inspiring music, and she's full of awe. And she said, "You know, when I play awe, I am not ... I am part of this orchestra, I'm part of the audience, I'm part of a humans making music for tens of thousands of years, and the notes are just part of life and our history together," right? And suddenly she gets really humble and awe inspired. And I think that's what awe points us to-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:10:12 Mm

Dacher Keltner 1:10:12 ... is like this is what I'm part of. That is way bigger than the self.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:10:17 Sorry to interrupt. If you are enjoying this content, there's loads more just like it on my channel, so please do take a moment to press subscribe, hit the notification bell, and now back to the conversation. Talking about things greater than the self, very few things teach us that than life and death.

Dacher Keltner 1:10:36 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:10:37 And this chapter really did have a big impact on me.

Dacher Keltner 1:10:41 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:10:41 I thought it was beautifully written-

Dacher Keltner 1:10:42 Thank you

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:10:42 ... with some phenomenal ideas in there. Let's start with life.

Dacher Keltner 1:10:46 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:10:47 Um, I think it's easy for us to understand when we think about it that the birth of a child-

Dacher Keltner 1:10:54 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:10:54 ... is an awe-inspiring event.

Dacher Keltner 1:10:58 It is. Yeah. And you know, when we did that study, Stories of Awe from 26 countries, everywhere in the world people, parents, relatives, grandparents. I remember this story from a grandmother in France who's like, "When my granddaughter came in, I just felt like hugging everybody and my life was anew," you know? Um, yeah, you know, and, and very simply it, this is, you know, it's awe-inspiring visually [laughs] and/or, you know, it's got a lot of-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:11:30 Mm

Dacher Keltner 1:11:30 ... as you know, fluids and so forth, but out comes the face, and you look at the face as I did with my daughter Natalie, and it's like I saw all the generations that she was part of genetically-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:11:40 Mm

Dacher Keltner 1:11:40 ... and historically. I was blown away by the beauty of her face. I still get goosebumps thinking about it now. And, and time, you know, like you're listening to the music and thinking about your daughter, like, "Wow, this is the beginning of a cycle," right?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:11:55 Yeah.

Dacher Keltner 1:11:55 Um, and, and then a lot of people, um, I remember a mom from Japan writing about like, "Oh my God, I am different. I now am responsible."

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:12:04 [laughs]

Dacher Keltner 1:12:05 "I have to take care of somebody for 60 years," so transformative.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:12:09 Yeah. There's nothing like becoming a parent to take you outside of yourself-

Dacher Keltner 1:12:14 Ah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:12:14 ... you know, [laughs] and your own inner world. "What am I gonna do?" And your worries is suddenly is s- suddenly everything changes.

Dacher Keltner 1:12:20 Everything.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:12:21 You know?

Dacher Keltner 1:12:21 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:12:22 I still remember at Edinburgh Medical School, when I was on my, uh, obstetrics and gynecology placement, and I can't remember what year, maybe third year, fourth year as a med student.

Dacher Keltner 1:12:33 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:12:35 I went in to observe a cesarean section

Dacher Keltner 1:12:37 Wow

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:12:38 And I remember putting, you know, scrubbing up and going in, and I just remember being literally amazed that within minutes they basically cut open someone [laughs] , pulled out a baby. And I just remember at that time going, "I've never seen anything like that-

Dacher Keltner 1:12:57 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:12:57 ... before. That is just ridiculous."

Dacher Keltner 1:12:59 [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:13:00 Do you know what I mean? I mean-

Dacher Keltner 1:13:02 Well, you go from no baby to baby-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:13:04 Yeah

Dacher Keltner 1:13:04 ... out of a body, you're like, it's, it's amazing.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:13:05 Yeah, it was one of those. It, it was one of those things. Um, but, but interestingly enough, one of the things I found fascinating as you were writing about life was, um, you were talking about this lady who started off the natural childbirth movement-

Dacher Keltner 1:13:18 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:13:18 ... 'cause there was a concern that births-

Dacher Keltner 1:13:20 Oh

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:13:20 ... are becoming over-medicalized.

Dacher Keltner 1:13:22 Oh, my God

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:13:22 And I thought that was fascinating.

Dacher Keltner 1:13:23 Yeah, Nancy Bardacke. It's a, you know, it's a radical cultural shift, right? We started to... Women would be in general anesthesia, and they wouldn't recognize their child, and just presume- presumably for safety reasons. And we've moved away from that, and Nancy Bardacke leads this whole, like, awe-based approach to giving birth to children, like, you know, be aware of it, understand the vastness, and it's to good effect.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:13:47 Yeah. Let's talk about death. Death is a topic that I think we don't talk about enough, certainly in the West.

Dacher Keltner 1:13:58 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:13:59 It's something that is hidden away.

Dacher Keltner 1:14:01 Yeah. Oh, my God.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:14:02 Even the way we use language.

Dacher Keltner 1:14:04 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:14:04 We... You know, we often don't say that that person died. We say, "Oh, I lost that person," that... You know, we, we, we try and soften it in so many ways. Whereas there's many cultures where death is right there-

Dacher Keltner 1:14:18 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:14:19 ... in your face.

Dacher Keltner 1:14:20 Yeah. Absolutely.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:14:21 And if I reflect on my own life, one of the transformative experiences was when my dad died.

Dacher Keltner 1:14:29 Mm. Sorry.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:14:30 And, yeah, it's almost 10 years now, which is-

Dacher Keltner 1:14:32 Mm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:14:32 ... mad for me-

Dacher Keltner 1:14:33 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:14:33 ... to even think that it's, it's, you know, this March will be 10 years.

Dacher Keltner 1:14:36 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:14:37 And th- this whole idea that it takes you outside of yourself, that's what awe is. You know?

Dacher Keltner 1:14:44 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:14:44 You think about the vastness. Until I read that chapter, I don't think I looked back on Dad's death, and I never would've thought about the emotion awe.

Dacher Keltner 1:14:55 Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:14:56 But actually I think you're bang on. It was awe-inspiring.

Dacher Keltner 1:15:00 Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:15:01 You know, I would've, I would've thought that awe is a g- it's a positive emotion.

Dacher Keltner 1:15:04 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:15:04 It's love, right? But of course, that is love.

Dacher Keltner 1:15:06 Part of it, yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:15:06 It's, it's losing love.

Dacher Keltner 1:15:08 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:15:08 Or, you know, that's one way you could describe it, but I thought, yeah, that was the first time in my life after Dad died that I started to ask big, existential questions. Who am I?

Dacher Keltner 1:15:19 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:15:19 Whose life am I leading?

Dacher Keltner 1:15:20 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:15:21 What am I gonna do?

Dacher Keltner 1:15:22 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:15:22 Right? So talk to me about death and why that's made the book-

Dacher Keltner 1:15:27 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:15:27 ... under this sort of umbrella of awe.

Dacher Keltner 1:15:29 Yeah. Thank you. Um, and I could not agree more about our Western European view of death. You know, I, in working with medical doctors during the pandemic and they watched a million people in the United States die by themselves, right, in a hospital bed often. Um, tough stuff. Uh, we don't confront it like a lot of other cultures. Um, yeah, it made the book for a couple of reasons, and, you know, um, one was our data from 26 countries, and people talked a lot about dying. You know, watching... I remember [clears throat] this young guy from Indonesia just watching his mom die, and he was just like, "Wow, what was my mother, and what was her life, and, you know, what is my life without her?" And as you nicely illustrated and argued, you know, Rangan, it is a huge mystery. Like, what is it? Where do they go? And then the other thing, and, and I really, um, this led me to write the book, was my brother's death, my brother Ralf. And, uh, as I was thinking about awe, uh, you know, I was lucky. He's my younger brother, red hair, you know. We had a awe-filled childhood of, you know... We are one year apart. We... Uh, my parents were kinda counterculture, grew up in the Laurel Canyon in the '60s and then in the country, and we backpacked and run, ran and jumped in rivers and, you know, it was just full of awe, and then he got colon cancer.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:17:02 Mm-hmm.

Dacher Keltner 1:17:03 Um, and you know, it's important to say at the outset, like, dying is horrifying. You know, it was brutal. That's a brutal cancer. It was just, like, chaos. And then, um, I... He... The cancer returned after chemotherapy, hit his gut, and y- y- you know this, uh, carcinoma peritoneus s-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:17:26 Yeah

Dacher Keltner 1:17:26 ... uh, um, and, and it, it's just lights out, you know? And so the day that he died, we all rushed up to his home, and I was sitting there, and I knew this was coming, you know, for years. And holding, you know, touching his body and seeing that he was in this state and, you know, it was like, um, it was a transcendent visual experience where it was like I saw patterns of light vibrating. His... I felt like there was a soul there.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:17:58 Mm-hmm.

Dacher Keltner 1:17:59 You know? Like, his soul uniting us.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:18:02 Yeah.

Dacher Keltner 1:18:03 And then, like you, you know, when he passed, my mind was flooded with the big questions. Like, what is life?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:18:11 Mm.

Dacher Keltner 1:18:11 You know, what, um, what was his life? Why? Why'd he die, you know? What is death? Um, and I went, I went in search. Uh, that is part of the book.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:18:23 I mean, sorry to hear about your brother. Thank you for sharing that story.

Dacher Keltner 1:18:27 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:18:27 Um, your brother plays quite a, a key role in this book.

Dacher Keltner 1:18:32 Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:18:32 He features heavily-

Dacher Keltner 1:18:33 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:18:34 ... at, at various times.

Dacher Keltner 1:18:35 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:18:40 There was something in the, the, the chapter on death about these three practices towards the end of life.

Dacher Keltner 1:18:49 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:18:50 I think it was, um, Roshi Joan Halifax.

Dacher Keltner 1:18:54 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:18:55 That really [laughs] made me stop and reflect.

Dacher Keltner 1:18:58 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:18:58 I wonder if you could talk us through them.

Dacher Keltner 1:18:59 Yeah. Thank you, Rangan. You know, when my brother struggled with colon cancer, I'd visit him almost every week and, you know, uh, you would be able to make sense of it. I couldn't. I'm not... You know, it was just like-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:19:14 Mm

Dacher Keltner 1:19:14 ... like, what's going on with the body? And, and like a lot of people who are really with illness and confronting the death of a deeply loved person, they... I tried to control things. I tried to fix things. I thought I had solutions.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:19:28 Mm.

Dacher Keltner 1:19:28 I was reading journals and bringing foods and so forth.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:19:32 Yeah.

Dacher Keltner 1:19:33 And, um, and I was, I was not doing well, and I wasn't helping. And then, you know, uh, I read Roshi Joan Halifax, who started a lot of the hospice work in the United States with AIDS patients-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:19:46 Right

Dacher Keltner 1:19:46 ... seen thousands of people die. She's a friend. I love her. Um, and she comes at a dying out of a Buddhist contemplative tradition, and it has these three principles, which is accept uncertainty, mystery, and not knowing. You don't know.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:20:04 Mm.

Dacher Keltner 1:20:05 You don't know how long. You don't know where the body goes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:20:09 Yeah.

Dacher Keltner 1:20:09 And when I was near my brother, I was like, "Okay, I'm gonna shift to, like, I don't know. You know, I will never know." Um, the second is witness. You know, just like, um, just observe instead of direct or control or label. Like, be there and witness the process. And it was interesting, Rang... You know, Rangan, a lot of people talk about this, like, who are around death a lot, that people who are dying kinda know the vast thing they're heading into. They're like, "Oh, wow, this is a mystery."

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:20:40 Yeah.

Dacher Keltner 1:20:41 And my brother started to lead me there. He w- I remember one moment where he's like, "You know..." I was like, "How are you doing?" He's like, "Well, I'm thinking about the big D." And I was like, "What is that?" "Death." [laughs] I was like, "What?" You know? He's like, "Yeah, I'm so curious about what is it, you know?"

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:20:56 Wow.

Dacher Keltner 1:20:56 And I was like, "Oh, I gotta witness that." And then compassionate action is don't control or mislead, but just, you know, be kind. And man, thank you for reminding me, though, of those, Rangan. Like, I... Once I read that and I got those and embodied those, the whole thing changed. You know, my whole experience of his dying, uh, opened me up to awe, frankly.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:21:20 Yeah. We're talking about the benefits of awe, the benefits of us experiencing more awe in our lives.

Dacher Keltner 1:21:30 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:21:32 How does that relate to death? Because-

Dacher Keltner 1:21:33 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:21:35 ... death is seen as something negative often.

Dacher Keltner 1:21:38 Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:21:39 Right? And there'll be many people listening who are either going through it or recently been through it-

Dacher Keltner 1:21:43 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:21:43 ... someone close to them has died.

Dacher Keltner 1:21:46 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:21:46 How do you put that together with this idea that awe has incredible benefits for us?

Dacher Keltner 1:21:53 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:21:54 Do you know what I mean?

Dacher Keltner 1:21:54 Oh.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:21:54 Like, he- help, help us sort of understand that.

Dacher Keltner 1:21:57 Right. It, it... I- it's a next movement in... that's already starting to happen in, um, f- facing the end of life and then grieving, right? So facing the end of life, um, so for as an empirical illustration, we know psychedelics actually benefit people with terminal diseases. And the thinking now that we've written about in others, and I write about in this book, is psychedelics help us feel awe. And so if you're given a terminal disease and you feel awe about it, and now there's work that's not psychedelic-related with children facing terminal diseases, you're doing exactly what you did in your examples, Rangan, which are you're like, "Well, I'm really part of a family, and I'm part of a broader human experience."

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:22:43 Mm-hmm.

Dacher Keltner 1:22:44 And, um, and maybe I believe in a soul, and I, my s- my consciousness stays in some fashion. We don't know, you know?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:22:53 Yeah.

Dacher Keltner 1:22:53 And that helps people facing dying. Um, that helps ordinary people not facing dying just to reflect on that, and there's studies showing it's good for you.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:23:02 Yeah.

Dacher Keltner 1:23:02 And then with grief, grief has a, a lot of awe in it. It's, it's horrible. It's panicky. It's anxious. But there are all these mysteries that we have to head into-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:23:13 Yeah

Dacher Keltner 1:23:13 ... that awe guides us to.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:23:16 There are two more things in that chapter that really moved me. One was how you ended it, and I'm just gonna read some of your words if that's okay.

Dacher Keltner 1:23:23 Okay. [laughs] I'm glad you're reminding me. [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:23:27 "And that the people we love remain with us in even more mysterious ways after they leave."

Dacher Keltner 1:23:35 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:23:36 That is just so profound.

Dacher Keltner 1:23:39 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:23:40 Like, there are so many ways to interpret that.

Dacher Keltner 1:23:43 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:23:44 Um, I certainly have been thinking a lot about my dad and how I now feel I still have a relationship with him. It's just changed. Like, I can't talk to him. I can't ask him things and get a response, but I still have a relationship with him.

Dacher Keltner 1:23:58 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:23:59 It's just a different one.

Dacher Keltner 1:24:00 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:24:00 And so that, that, that line really spoke to me.

Dacher Keltner 1:24:03 Mm, thank you. You know, when my brother died, I went on a, kind of a 18-month odyssey to f- just figure out the mysteries of life, and it's interesting, Rangan, and I haven't really thought about this, but... And I write about it. He kept coming to me in, when I was out in nature 'cause he and I did a lot of outdoors time-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:24:25 Mm-hmm

Dacher Keltner 1:24:25 ... you know, growing up in the country and then backpacking and, and I would h- I'd feel his voice in the sky. I'd hear his voice in the wind, or I'd feel his eyesight in the sky. S- I'd r- see him in trees literally.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:24:37 Wow.

Dacher Keltner 1:24:37 And he is with me in consciousness- In ways that science will never understand [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:24:46 Yeah

Dacher Keltner 1:24:46 ... and, and I feel to be true. And that I learned by following the awe of dying and, and grief.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:24:54 Yeah. Death can really teach us so much about what it means to be alive.

Dacher Keltner 1:25:00 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:25:00 The, the other section in that chapter I wanted to talk to you about was this Japanese principle of, is it wabi-sabi?

Dacher Keltner 1:25:10 Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:25:10 I, I hadn't come across that-

Dacher Keltner 1:25:11 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:25:12 ... but this idea that the evolution of all forms from the natural to the man-made follow a cycle of creation, birth, growth, decay-

Dacher Keltner 1:25:24 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:25:24 ... and death.

Dacher Keltner 1:25:25 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:25:27 Again, you know, we, we, we read things and they land with us at, at different parts of our life. So I've had a incredibly challenging six weeks, two months.

Dacher Keltner 1:25:38 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:25:39 You know, just after Christmas, I, me and my brother thought Mom was dying.

Dacher Keltner 1:25:43 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:25:43 Um, and-

Dacher Keltner 1:25:45 Mm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:25:45 ... I went through a sort of grief-type process thinking, "That's, I'm never gonna be able to talk to Mom again," and she has survived.

Dacher Keltner 1:25:53 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:25:54 And she's come home. But she's not the person she was before.

Dacher Keltner 1:25:59 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:25:59 And there's a lot of care in place. She hasn't got the, um, the vibrancy that she had before.

Dacher Keltner 1:26:09 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:26:11 But that section on wabi-sabi has been incredibly comforting because it... And I think it speaks to awe.

Dacher Keltner 1:26:20 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:26:20 It speaks to this idea that there is a natural-

Dacher Keltner 1:26:22 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:26:22 ... cycle, and instead of trying to fight this and control it, creation, birth, growth-

Dacher Keltner 1:26:31 Mm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:26:31 ... decay, death. I thought, "Mom's probably in that fourth stage. She's probably in decay now."

Dacher Keltner 1:26:37 Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:26:38 Um, and instead of resisting it-

Dacher Keltner 1:26:44 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:26:44 ... maybe it's a case of embracing it and going, "Yeah, Mom's had a good life."

Dacher Keltner 1:26:48 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:26:48 This is now her journey on the evolution of life.

Dacher Keltner 1:26:53 Yeah. Sorry about your mom. Um, yeah, you know, that was a central insight in grappling with my brother's death. I'm a scientist. I believe in evolution. I love molecules-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:27:09 Yeah

Dacher Keltner 1:27:09 ... and nir- nervous systems, and I watched him go, and I watched that process of I thought about his creation and then his growth, which I shared almost everything with growth. Then I watched his body decay brutally and go, and, and my mind at that moment was, "That's it." But, and then the experience of awe opened me up to, like, rebirth, of Rolf is here in other ways. He, he's creating new things. In this show-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:27:38 Yeah

Dacher Keltner 1:27:38 ... he's spreading these ideas, right? It gives me goosebumps thinking about it today. Um, and that notion really confounded me of the cycle. Uh, and I was like, "I don't quite understand this," so I started reading wabi-sabi, the idea in Japanese design of everything goes through this cycle. Charles Darwin and evolution-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:28:01 Mm

Dacher Keltner 1:28:01 ... everything goes through that cycle. Um, uh, I talked to Reverend Jen Bailey, and I was like, "What's the secret to spirituality and awe?" And she said, "It's always composting. It goes through a cycle of, you know, birth, growth, decay, and starting over." And I was like, "Oh, my God," you know? This is one of the things that awe teaches us-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:28:21 Yeah

Dacher Keltner 1:28:22 ... is, is that cycle.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:28:24 It, it, it's incredible. It's... One might think that talking about these topics is dark a-

Dacher Keltner 1:28:34 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:28:34 ... and, and somber. But I don't think it is. I think it actually really helps us connect with life, connect-

Dacher Keltner 1:28:45 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:28:45 ... with something bigger.

Dacher Keltner 1:28:46 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:28:46 You know, remind us of our insignificance really in this kind of ego-focused world where there appears to be more and more people exhibiting narcissistic traits.

Dacher Keltner 1:28:59 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:28:59 This is the power of awe, wherever you experience it, isn't it? That actually it takes you out of yourself. You realize that, "Oh, you know what? It's all been, it's all happened before. It's all, it's all done. Um, let's just play our part in the kind of I guess the normal evolution of life."

Dacher Keltner 1:29:18 Yeah. You know, thank you for that summary, you know, Rangan. Um, you know, th- one of the things you can take from this book is there are these eight wonders that hint to us that there are big things to be part of, music and life and death and moral beauty, collective effervescence we've talked about. And just, you know, when you feel awe, just ask yourself that question, like, "What am I part of here?" You know? And it usually points you towards, um... It makes you realize, like, I'm just a small thing that actually is okay. That's actually true, but I'm part of something really large, like fellow humans, you know, an ecosystem or something about culture, and, and, and we need that today, you know? Like you said earlier, a lot of the health challenges come out of this, this internal individual focus that has just blown up today.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:30:06 Mm.

Dacher Keltner 1:30:06 And awe moves us towards the things that are amazing outside of ourselves.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:30:11 It's interesting that you pose the idea in the book that the English language doesn't really have-

Dacher Keltner 1:30:20 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:30:20 ... good words-

Dacher Keltner 1:30:21 [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:30:22 ... like other languages might do, about experiencing things outside of ourselves.

Dacher Keltner 1:30:25 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:30:26 Can you speak to that a little bit?

Dacher Keltner 1:30:27 Yeah. I mean, it, it's, it's striking, you know? We, uh, you know, there, um, there is a term, uh, in Japanese, I think it's called jibun, which is shared life space.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:30:39 Mm.

Dacher Keltner 1:30:39 Which is kind of like their sense of self.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:30:41 Yeah.

Dacher Keltner 1:30:42 It's not like- Dacher with all my traits and characteristics. It's like shared life space. Uh, I just encountered this other concept in Javanese, I think it's called purna, uh, which is home. You know, which is like, what, what is meaning? It's my sense of home, which you can find anywhere.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:30:59 Mm-hmm.

Dacher Keltner 1:30:59 But it really is about a collective experience of this is we, right? And, uh, the English language, you try to, you try to find words to describe that, and it, it just doesn't hit, right? We think of the self and the ego, and it has these connotations of, like, bounded self. So hopefully this book opens people's minds-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:31:21 Yeah

Dacher Keltner 1:31:21 ... to a little bit of the collective imagination.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:31:24 It's that classic, um, tussle between East and West-

Dacher Keltner 1:31:27 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:31:27 ... as, in terms of philosophies, and it's-

Dacher Keltner 1:31:29 I bet you feel it. [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:31:30 Yeah, it's in- in- it's incredible to... It's incredible to think how much the language we have access to influences our experience of the world.

Dacher Keltner 1:31:42 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:31:42 Because that's how many of us, we, we see it, don't we? We, we, you know, if we don't have the words to... You know, if your culture has these collective words within it and you're using them, of course you're gonna see these things-

Dacher Keltner 1:31:56 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:31:56 ... more easily.

Dacher Keltner 1:31:57 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:31:58 You know? It's not gonna be quite as a struggle. Like, even this concept of awe, this is what we were getting to at the start, that, you know, you may go to some cultures and go, "Yeah, we kinda know this. We're connected to our ancestors. We're connected to the land."

Dacher Keltner 1:32:10 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:32:10 "We're connected to-

Dacher Keltner 1:32:11 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:32:12 ... our communities." I, I sort of, I really feel that there's this thing now in the West where we have to prove everything. Prove to me what you already know is intuitively true.

Dacher Keltner 1:32:24 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:32:24 Right? And look, you've done a great job at, at, at supporting these ideas with science, to be clear.

Dacher Keltner 1:32:29 Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:32:29 You've done a brilliant job at putting it all together. But I do question, like, some of the stuff, like, experiencing awe is an innate human quality that humans 200,000 years ago were doing-

Dacher Keltner 1:32:42 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:32:42 ... before a scientific study said to them, you know-

Dacher Keltner 1:32:45 [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:32:45 ... you, you must-

Dacher Keltner 1:32:46 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:32:46 ... awe, awe is good for you.

Dacher Keltner 1:32:47 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:32:48 Do you know what I mean?

Dacher Keltner 1:32:48 Yeah, no. But, but you know, that's, that's what science, um, you know, as, as my advisor Lee Ross said, you know, is in, in some sense it's about knowledge for kindness. You know, it's for learning things that make us a little bit better as a community. And I think if you look at the broad trends that we've been noting in our, our largely globalized Western European cultures, and now increasingly throughout the world, it's self-focused, it's individualistic, it's more materialistic, and we've forgotten, you know? And you're absolutely right. Um, for the interested reader, like the indigenous traditions-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:33:23 Yeah

Dacher Keltner 1:33:23 ... that Dr. Yurina Saeligwyn, who I interviewed for the book, represents, they have so much awe in their cultural, in, in, in their general cultural tendencies, and we just need to remind ourselves of that, you know, that we need this.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:33:36 People who are religious have a lot of awe, don't they?

Dacher Keltner 1:33:38 Yeah, yeah. And you know, one of the interesting things about awe is it helps us understand why certain things are beneficial. People who are religious tend to feel less depression, benefits for life expectancy. And one of the hypotheses is, and I write about this, is that religions are just containers for awe. You know, you go and you do your rituals and you sing together. You look up at the beautiful stained glass and you're in a cathedral that looks like a forest and you're hugging people. That's all awe, you know?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:34:07 Yeah.

Dacher Keltner 1:34:07 And so, um, we, when my brother died, I'm not a religious person, but like a lot of secular people, um, facing such stress, I was like, how do I kinda build a sense of, of that? Of like, moving with people-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:34:23 Mm-hmm

Dacher Keltner 1:34:23 ... and my rituals and my sacred texts. Um, so uh, religion is a master at, it's a technology of awe.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:34:31 Yeah, it really is. As, as we, as we speak, my, uh, wife's parents are in Kenya at the moment.

Dacher Keltner 1:34:36 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:34:36 And um, they have a lot of family there. They used to live there. And I've only visited once. And my father-in-law is part of the Jain community.

Dacher Keltner 1:34:49 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:34:49 And there's something-

Dacher Keltner 1:34:50 Wonderful

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:34:50 ... in Nairobi called the Oshwal Center.

Dacher Keltner 1:34:52 Uh-huh.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:34:53 And I, I have this vivid memory. I, I spoke about this once on the podcast when chatting to Shane O'Mara, the neuroscientist, um, from Ireland, who wrote a brilliant book on walking, and about what happens when you walk together with other people.

Dacher Keltner 1:35:08 Yeah. Wow.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:35:08 And you, you, you of course touch on that in your book.

Dacher Keltner 1:35:11 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:35:11 And I don't know if he's done this yet or not, but at the Oshwal Center, the Jain community or certain elements of the Jain community would come together every evening at dusk.

Dacher Keltner 1:35:21 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:35:21 And it's the most beautiful sight. They walk together around this track. They just go around-

Dacher Keltner 1:35:26 [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:35:27 ... talking.

Dacher Keltner 1:35:28 Yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:35:28 Um, so they're getting physical activity. They're getting community. They're getting connection.

Dacher Keltner 1:35:34 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:35:34 They're getting, you know, the, the mood-lifting benefits of all of those things.

Dacher Keltner 1:35:39 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:35:39 But it's, it's built in-

Dacher Keltner 1:35:41 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:35:41 ... to the fabric of the community, of the structure.

Dacher Keltner 1:35:45 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:35:45 Right? I think that's what, as we become more secular, this is a massive thing we've lost. Of course there are some negatives of religions. I'm not trying to paint a picture that everything's fantastic.

Dacher Keltner 1:35:55 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:35:56 But we really have lost some of this cohesion and this ritual that, that used to exist.

Dacher Keltner 1:36:02 I, you know... And, and I love, one of our, uh, the people I interviewed is Diana Gameiros, who's this great musician, and she did the awe walk that we talked about, but in a Mexico Zócalo.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:36:12 Yeah.

Dacher Keltner 1:36:12 And Mexico Zócalos are, they're like churches. They're like genius locations for a lot of awe of, you know, sharing music and culture and the like. Yeah, you know, um, we, um, have... One of the things that's been really surprising and exhilarating about writing this book, and then in the conversations, is I think it gives us a new way to talk about religion and spirit-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:36:41 Mm

Dacher Keltner 1:36:41 ... and sacred. You know, we started with a quote about the sacred, and even the divine.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:36:46 Mm.

Dacher Keltner 1:36:47 Um, that, you know, let's, let's put aside- ... dogma and definitions and so forth, and just ask humans, as William James did, like, "What brings you a sense of, of the sacred? Uh, what do you really c- what do you c- what would you give your life for?" Right? Um, where do you find a sense of your soul, that which is primary and good, and you c- it's mysterious, right? And lo and behold, a lot of it's about awe, and it, and so 40... 81% of Americans believe in spirit, and half of those people find it in nature.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:37:22 Yeah.

Dacher Keltner 1:37:22 And they go out there, and they're like, "This is beyond my words and understanding. It's awe, and it gives me a sense of soul."

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:37:29 Yeah. I was chatting to my wife this morning, and I said, "I'm talking to you about awe," and I asked her about how often she experiences awe.

Dacher Keltner 1:37:40 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:37:41 She said, "All the time."

Dacher Keltner 1:37:42 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:37:42 And w- the, the thing she said to me was, "When I'm meditating regularly, I experience awe everywhere, all the time."

Dacher Keltner 1:37:50 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:37:50 I found that interesting.

Dacher Keltner 1:37:51 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:37:51 So that practice of solitude-

Dacher Keltner 1:37:53 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:37:53 ... and the way she meditates and what she taps into allows her then to go out into the-

Dacher Keltner 1:37:59 Mm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:37:59 ... non-meditative world, i.e., when, you know, when the parts of her life where she's not meditating, and she's starting to see the wonder of life everywhere.

Dacher Keltner 1:38:07 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:38:07 So I, I wonder your perspective on that, but I also wonder-

Dacher Keltner 1:38:12 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:38:12 ... like my last book, Dacher, was on happiness, right? And in that, I said happiness is a trainable skill.

Dacher Keltner 1:38:16 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:38:17 And I believe it to be, and you have a lot more experience talking about happiness than I do. But I, I can't shake that thought, like with happiness, like with gratitude, and now with awe, that the ability to experience awe, see awe, find awe, is something you can get better at-

Dacher Keltner 1:38:40 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:38:40 ... once you start looking for it.

Dacher Keltner 1:38:41 Yeah. Yeah. Your wife is onto something really profound that, um, I think we'll learn more about, which is when you find your, what you might call your contemplative practice, and it might be listening to music, it might be walking in the woods, reading the Upanishads. For me, believe it or not, it was playing pickup basketball for decades, just like, "This, I'm in a reflective moment about-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:39:08 Wow

Dacher Keltner 1:39:08 ... my life." Um, you often feel extensive awe about almost everything in life, you know? And in some sense, that's what you find in the spiritual journalings of... And, you know, the great revelations of, in the Bhagavad Gita or, uh, other texts. It's like, wow, there's so much that's incredible here. There's so much wonder. And the science and scholarship around awe says, as, as I show, like this is a basic state of mind.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:39:37 [laughs]

Dacher Keltner 1:39:38 And it's not... You don't need to be on a plane and going to the Barrier Reef. It's just a basic thing about reality, to wonder about it, that it's mysterious. And it is, to your, to your question, you can cultivate it, you know? And when you read the book and you think about, y- like you said earlier, listening to music for awe or going for an awe walk or reading a poem that really moved you. Uh, watching children grow. [laughs] If you just do that.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:40:07 Yeah.

Dacher Keltner 1:40:07 I do that every day when I walk to work. I walk by a little preschool, and I just stop for about 30 seconds and look, oh, they're playing, you know. They have this weird, you know, you know, Game of Thrones game going on. Kids are amazing, you know?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:40:20 Yeah.

Dacher Keltner 1:40:20 It's a mind-blowing. So you know, you listen to them speak language, whatever it is. So there's so much awe, and your, your wife is, in some sense, the, the kind of the, the spirit of the book that I was trying to say, encourage, which is like, there's everyday awe and wonder. Just go get it, you know?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:40:36 Yeah. Well, let's close this conversation down, Dacher. It's, you know, been so expanding, this conversation.

Dacher Keltner 1:40:45 Mm. For me too.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:40:46 I think I've experienced awe on several occasions throughout.

Dacher Keltner 1:40:50 Me too. [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:40:50 Um, I, I think the book is wonderful.

Dacher Keltner 1:40:52 Thank you.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:40:54 I think it's such a deep dive. We haven't even covered a fraction of what's in it in terms of the things I think people can learn about themselves, about the world, about their history, about their ancestors.

Dacher Keltner 1:41:05 Yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:41:05 I th- I think it really is quite profound. Um, this podcast is called Feel Better, Live More.

Dacher Keltner 1:41:11 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:41:11 When we feel better in ourselves-

Dacher Keltner 1:41:13 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:41:13 ... we get more out of our lives. And I always like to finish off with a question to my guest around this idea. If you look around in the world today, people are sick.

Dacher Keltner 1:41:27 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:41:28 Right?

Dacher Keltner 1:41:28 No doubt.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:41:28 There's a lot of sickness.

Dacher Keltner 1:41:29 There is.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:41:29 A lot of struggle. There's a lot of discontentment.

Dacher Keltner 1:41:32 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:41:33 So for that person who's listening right now who feels like that-

Dacher Keltner 1:41:39 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:41:39 ... through the lens of this new book-

Dacher Keltner 1:41:42 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:41:42 ... through the lens of awe, have you got any final words of advice or some practical wisdom for them?

Dacher Keltner 1:41:50 Yeah. Thank you. That's one of the reasons I wrote this book, you know. Uh, I felt it in grief, like I'm sick. Uh, I saw it in the broad patterns of data and, you know. And then I hear from those parents that are like, "Man, my son is, is really struggling," like a lot of teens are. Um, and I say find awe, you know? And those eight wonders are really useful, so just a few of them. One of them is moral beauty. Um-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:42:15 Can you just sort of top line what is moral beauty?

Dacher Keltner 1:42:18 Moral beauty is when we're astonished by the kindness and courage of other people. And, you know, one exercise I have people do is just think about a mentor whose courage or kindness changed your life and how it's with you today.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:42:30 Wow.

Dacher Keltner 1:42:31 And when they do that, they're like, "Oh my God, my math teacher, Mr. McAuliffe, like he told me I was good in math, you know?"

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:42:38 Yeah.

Dacher Keltner 1:42:38 "And I didn't know, and now I'm X or Y." And we're, we forget that in our individualistic mindset. You know, get outside and do an awe walk. Um, find some form of collective movement, you know, or, or singing. Um, listen to music for awe, right? Find, um, you know, it's... I mean, the, this is where the, the, you know, our internet and the smartphones are great. Like man, look at awe videos. You know, there are tons of awe videos. One of my fav... Babies in Tunnels is a whole series of babies coming out of tunnels, like, "Ah," you know? Uh, so much awe e- out there. Uh, and then, you know, um, you know, I'll, I'll avoid spirituality. That's up to people to form their own spirituality. But, you know, think about the ideas that matter to you. And, and when my brother died, I was like, God, I know I have this cocktail of ideas that I'm part of, and I started reading Walt Whitman-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:43:31 Yeah

Dacher Keltner 1:43:31 ... and Virginia Woolf and so forth. And then, you know, I am grateful, Rangan, that you've brought into focus death. Like there are now exercises of imagine the full life of somebody you really care about from their birth to their death. The Bhutanese do this as a regular practice. School kids do this. We never do it.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:43:50 Yeah.

Dacher Keltner 1:43:50 "Oh, don't think about dying." But, you know, you think about like, wow, this is... I think about my mom, you know, 85, inspiration for me. Like that's what she was like as a little girl, and I follow the trajectory of her life and then appreciate it will end.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:44:03 Yeah.

Dacher Keltner 1:44:04 And suddenly you come out of that, as studies show, like we all have this part of our life, right? And it's, has awe in it.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:44:12 Dacher, I appreciate the work you've done. I appreciate the book you've written, and I really appreciate the conversation. Thanks for coming up to the studio.

Dacher Keltner 1:44:20 Yeah. Thank you, Rangan. This has been an incredible conversation, so thank you.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:44:24 Thank you. If that conversation resonated with you, here is another incredibly powerful one that I really think you're going to enjoy. Give it a click.

Guest 1:44:32 If you actually went to the happiness gym several times a week, you will actually have a happier life, right? And the happiness gym is very straightforward. It's a set of skills, hmm, that you need to practice