Dr Rangan ChatterjeeHow To Find True Happiness (What 36 Years of Research Reveals) | Sonja Lyubomirsky
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
120 min read · 23,710 words- 0:00 – 0:15
INTRO
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
You've been studying happiness now for over 30 years. In your view, what are some of the common myths that exist-
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Hmm
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
... about this topic?
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Hmm. Well, I think the most common one is this idea
- 0:15 – 1:47
The Biggest Myths About Happiness
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
that like, "I'm not happy now, but I'll be happy when..." Like, "I'll be happy when I move to that city I always wanted to live in. I'll, I'll have a... When I have a baby. When I have that job that I always wanted. When I get a little bit more money. When I-
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Hmm
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
... lose a little bit more weight." And the problem with that myth is that there's a truth to it, right? Like, you probably will be happier when you get that new job-
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Hmm
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
... or have a baby or get a boyfriend, but human beings adapt very quickly to positive changes in their lives. It's called hedonic adaptation, right?
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Hmm.
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
So we, we make more money, and at first we're happy, and then we're like, "Oh, well, it would be very nice to make even more." And so hedonic adaptation is a very powerful phenomenon. And so we adapt and then we want even more and even more. The problem is that you're the same person in that new job or that new relationship, and that if you tend to not be a very happy person, you bring that person with you.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Hmm. It's like in Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance.
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Mm-hmm.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
I think Robert Pirsig writes, "The zen you feel at the top of the mountain is the zen you bring up-
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Hmm
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
... the mountain with you." Same kind of idea, right?
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Love that. Yeah. Same, same idea. So, so the idea is that changes in circumstances don't make you as happy as you think they will. Although if you're, if you're in a bad relationship, if you live in poverty, obviously changing those circumstances is gonna help you. But for most people who are pretty comfortable, uh, improving their life a little bit is not gonna make them happier forever. And so it's really, it's a cliché, but what makes us happy is really something on the inside of us, not something on the outside of us.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
What's the relationship then
- 1:47 – 9:57
Money and Happiness: What’s the Link?
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
between money and happiness?
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Hmm. You know, it's kind of nuanced. It's, money does make people happier, but it depends on h- what you spend it on, right? So if you w- The way I like to think of it is that there's sort of three buckets of things that make people happy.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Mm-hmm.
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
One is connection, two is contribution to society, three is personal growth. So if you spend your money on connecting with other people and, you know, I don't know, paying for dinner with your friends, taking your nephew to the circus. If you spend your money on contributing, on helping others, whether it's philanthropy or just, you know, being generous, or you spend your money on personal growth, learning a new skill, traveling, then those things will make you happier. But if you spend your money on like things or possessions, a bigger house, a bigger car, uh, that's not gonna make you happier forever.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
It ki- it kind of fits alongside that first myth, doesn't it?
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
That we think-
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Mm-hmm
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
... and maybe we think this because of culture and society.
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
But I think many of us are conditioned to believe that when we get that job, when we get that raise, when we get that car, when we get that phone, things are gonna get better.
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Right?
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Mm-hmm.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
And, and is that perhaps something that is normal to feel when you're a teenager and in your 20s?
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Mm-hmm.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Does experience and age basically teach you, as it has for me, that these things really are myths, and as you get older, you realize, actually, wait a minute.
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Hmm.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
All of those external things, sure, you may want them, but if you think they're gonna bring you something like deep contentment and happiness, you may be a little bit disappointed.
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Yeah, it is true, as you get older, you learn, you become a little bit wiser. But one of my, one of the theories is that it's, it's evolutionarily adaptive for humans-
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Of course
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
... to always want more, right? Imagine if we are in our ancestral past, we would get to that mountain, we got, you know, we got food, and then we sort of were satisfied with that, and we just sort of sat there and didn't do anything else, right?
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Hmm.
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
We would never make progress as a, as a species. So, so always wanting more is actually beneficial for us as a human species, but for individuals, it's not, it doesn't make us happy.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Yeah. That makes me think about the role that culture plays.
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Mm-hmm.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Right? So let's say the United States of America, known around the world as a go-getting culture, you know.
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Hmm.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Whatever you want, you can do. You just gotta put your mind to it, work hard, right? And of course, America, over the years, has innovated in so many different disciplines so well. But of course, and maybe this is part of it as well, you know, there's many cultures like I... You know, my parents are from India, and they came to the UK in the 1960s and the 1970s.
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Mm-hmm.
- 9:57 – 11:49
Happiness and Your Health
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
happiness and health?
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Hmm. Again, lots of all correlational, almost all correlational research, right? So in, I mean, hundreds of studies show that happier people are healthier. So first you can look at just correlations, right? So happier people are, l- have less pain, have less likely to have cancer or heart disease, less likely to develop a cold. Um, some of my favorite studies, people were given, were injected the rhinovirus, the cold virus, directly into their noses.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
[laughs]
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Into their nasal passages. Uh, they were paid a lot of money to do this, um, I think $800. This was in the '90s.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Wow.
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Um-
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
That's a, that was a lot of money in the '90s. It's a lot of money now.
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
It was a lot of money.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
But in the '90s-
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Exactly
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
... wow.
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
It was a lot. Well, because they, it was a big study. They had, then they had to, they had to, uh, sequester the participants in a, in a motel for five days and kind of watch them.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
[laughs]
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Anyway, long story short, happier people who were injected with the cold virus were less likely to, to, to get a cold, and when they did, it was shorter, right? So if you're h- if you're unhappier, you're more likely to get a cold. Basically, your immune system seemed to be less strong. So that's, that's one example of a study.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Yeah.
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Um, happier people, um... And then so there's the correlational studies. There's longitudinal studies. So if you measure people at time one, and you follow them across time, happier people live longer, uh, they recover faster from s- surgery, they're less likely to develop all kinds of conditions, whether it's, uh, cancer or heart disease, diabetes. Um, and then, and then, but really there are very few exper- It's almost impossible to do experiments on this. Um, it's almost all correlational. But anyway, so tons of studies that are correlational that show that happiness is related to health. And the researchers try to control for other factors.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Yeah.
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
So for example, in that study where people were injected with a cold virus, they controlled for things like age, body mass index, depression, which actually surprisingly none of those things had a, uh, had
- 11:49 – 17:16
How Culture Changes Happiness
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
an effect. Even depression, you would think, 'cause it could be that it's really depression that is associated with the strength of immune f- immune function. Um, not in this study, though.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
How do you think the culture in which we grow up in-
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Mm-hmm
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
... affects our view of happiness? And I'm particularly thinking about someone like yourself who-
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
... I think until the age of nine you grew up in Russia.
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Mm-hmm.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
And then you came to the United States. So you've kind of got-
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Mm-hmm
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
... two massively different cultural inputs to your perspective on happiness.
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Mm-hmm. Yeah, the story I tell myself, um, is that one of the reasons that I started studying happiness is that I was so shocked by the cultural differences when I came to the US. Um, so in Russia, you know, you walk in the streets, people don't look happy. There's a, there's a notion of the evil eye that I think is, uh, is a- ... in, you know, popular cultural notion that if you sort of look happy or successful to others, that bad things will happen to you. Um-
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
In Russia, that's-
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
In Russia, yes.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Yeah. Wow.
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
In the US, you know, you walk on the street... You know, I remember the first place we went to was actually New York, not famous for its happy people on the street.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
[laughs]
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
But it, yet people would sort of smile and say hello to me, uh, walking the street, and I was shocked at that, 'cause you just don't see that in Moscow, where I was from. Um, but we actually recently wrote a paper that showed that it had to do with, um, who you express your happiness to in the... If you go inside of a Russian home, people are singing and dancing and, you know, they look very happy. Uh, inside of American homes, I found they were kind of serious and [laughs] you know, like, "Please pass the salt." You know, there's no, there's not really much singing, dancing going on. [laughs]
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Right.
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Um, but anyway, the bottom line is there are big cultural differences. We've looked at some of those differences. Lots of other researchers have. Um, you know, some, some cultures don't, don't have a, yeah, don't even talk much about happiness. In Russia, if you ask people, you know, "Is happiness important to you?" They, they, they'll say no. They'll say, "It's important to suffer." Again, g- you, you mentioned Zen Buddhism. Um, th- the Russians will say it's important to suffer because suffering builds character, and also suffering might, uh, might lead you to, to sort of, to, to find salvation in the next life. So that's a, you know, it's one difference. Um, anyway, the, the point is, like, there's lots and lots of different perspectives on happiness and, and the American one, the Western one is just one, one type of perspective.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Yeah. It's kind of fascinating. I was reading your latest book, How To Feel Loved-
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Mm
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
... this morning in my local coffee shop.
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
[laughs]
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
And I was, I was deep in thought for about an hour, and I was making all kinds of notes. And then just before I got up to leave, one of the baristas-
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Mm-hmm
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
... said, "Hey, Rangan, what are you, what were you reading?" And as I was trying to very, you know, briefly kind of summarize the essence of the book-
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Mm-hmm
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
... she said something which kind of relates to what you just said. She said, "Well, I'm from Belarus originally-
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Mm
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
... in Eastern Europe."
- 17:16 – 19:10
What Is Happiness, Really?
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
we should probably define happiness at some point.
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
[laughs]
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Because I guess you could talk to 10 different people-
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Mm-hmm
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
... from maybe 10 different countries and ask them if they're happy, and it might mean something different to them. So as a researcher in this field-
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Mm-hmm
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
... how do you think about happiness?
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Sure. Well, when we measure happiness, we let people define it for themselves.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Okay.
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Um, but I d- researchers define happiness, uh, as having two components. The first component is experiencing positive emotions fairly frequently. Not all the time, but frequently, right? So happy people will experience, depending on the culture or the person, they might experience joy, enthusiasm, excitement, or tranquility, calm, curiosity, pride, right? So depending on the person, it's gonna be a different set of positive emotions.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Mm.
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
But experiencing frequent positive emotions is a really important part of happiness. I would say the hallmark of happiness. But it's not sufficient. The other component of happiness is having a sense that your life is good, that your life is going well. You're satisfied with your life. You're progressing towards your life goals at a good pace. So those are the two components of happiness. Positive emotions, which is the emotional component, and life satisfaction, which is, we call the, the cognitive component.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Mm.
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
And you really need both to be a truly happy person. You can imagine being like when I had my two first... I, I had two kids, and I really was very satisfied with my life. I sort of had exactly what I wanted, like, a beautiful family and a great job and these two kids, but I didn't have many positive emotions because it was so hard when they were little, and it was a lot of negative emotions, so I wasn't a truly happy person. You can imagine another person, let's say a college student, university student who's, like, partying a lot and having fun, so they have a lot of positive emotions, but they don't really know what they want to be when they're growing up. They're not really satisfied with the way their life is going. So they are high on one and not high and, and low on the other component. So you really need both components to be a truly happy person.
- 19:10 – 24:30
The Key to Happiness: Connection
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Mm. Over your decades-
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Mm-hmm
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
... of studying this topic-
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Yeah
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
... are there some key things that you have changed your mind on-
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Mm
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
... or surprising things that you learnt that you weren't expecting?
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Mm-hmm. Well, for twen- let's see, for 28 years, I've been doing what I call happiness interventions, right? Starting in 1998. [laughs] This is a long time ago. Yeah. We... My lab pioneered what we call happiness interventions, and happiness interventions are basically clinical trials, but instead of testing a vaccine or a medication, we're testing a practice like expressing gratitude. Does that make people happier? Doing acts of kindness. And so we've done 28 years of happiness interventions. And this is the surprising part, [laughs] or maybe it, it shouldn't have been surprising to us. A few years ago, it hit me that after all this time, that all the interventions that work to make us happier, the reason they work is they make us feel more connected and more loved by others, right? So when I write a gratitude letter to my mom, it makes me feel more loved by her. When I do an act of kindness for my colleague, my friend, it makes me feel closer to them, right? So almost all interventions, all happiness interventions are about connection. So again, it makes, may, may seem like a cliché, but almost all powerful ideas when you distill them, right, sound like clichés. [laughs]
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
For sure.
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Yeah. Um, so that's really the surprising thing that al- Now, there's some intervent- there's some happiness interventions like, like running on the beach or meditating. Maybe those don't necessarily have anything to do with connection, although even those, you could argue, could be connecting. Um, but almost all of them that work are about feeling connected and feeling loved, and so that's why I started to think about that as a key to happiness.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Yeah. Although that kind of ties-
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Yeah
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
... a little bit back to what we were saying before-
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Mm-hmm
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
... about cultural differences and-
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Yeah
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
... and me cultures versus we cultures.
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Yeah.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Right? Because we cultures, I very much grew up in a we culture. You know, Asian, Indian culture is very much about the family.
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Yeah.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
So, you know, doing things for others-
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Mm-hmm
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
... and doing things that are good for the, the wider group are kind of built into how we're brought up. You know, I, for example, live in the town where I grew up.
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Mm-hmm.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Right? So I... When Dad was alive, I was around to care for Dad. Now Mum is not so well. She's elderly now. Me and my brother are around to care for her. And now I was reflecting today, and I thought maybe one of the best things that I have ever done for my health, wellbeing, and longevity is to live near my mum.
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Mm-hmm.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
I... Do you know what I mean?
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Yeah.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
I know I'm, I'm not saying it is for everyone-
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Yeah. Mm-hmm
- 24:30 – 26:37
Why Feeling Loved Makes Us Happy
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
"Happy people feel loved." And people who are unhappy don't feel loved. And so it took us five years to get there. We, uh, we started... We, we were sending our book proposal f- to our agent for, uh, for five years. Um, and it just d- it wasn't quite there, it wasn't quite there, it wasn't quite there, and finally, it just sort of all came together, and we sort of came up with this idea of sort of five mindsets to bring, to embrace if you wanna feel loved, if you want other people in your life to feel loved. Um, and, uh, yeah, so it took a long time-
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Hmm
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
... uh, really seven years total, and here we are.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Here we are.
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Yeah, yeah.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Yeah, I mean, right at the start of the book, you guys explain the origin story.
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Yeah.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
And, and I think I've written it down, so I think this is what Harry actually said to you.
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Yeah.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
"I know people who are happy and people who are unhappy, and I can tell you the main difference between them. Happy people feel loved."
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Mm-hmm.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
And I, and I sat with that. I thought about this, Sonja-
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Yeah
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
... and I was thinking, "Okay-
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Yeah
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
... happy people feel loved." The wording is really quite precise.
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Yeah.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Right? 'Cause it's like, yeah, we all wanna be loved. We all know that it's nice to love other people and, and, and experience love from others. But feeling loved-
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Yeah
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
... by others is something a little bit different. Can you kind of explain the difference?
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Yeah. It... Because we can be loved and not feel loved. We can be... It's a little bit like a person who can be lonely when they're surrounded by other people. It's a little bit like we all know people who are beautiful, but they don't feel beautiful, right? We know people who are smart-
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Mm-hmm
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
... and they don't think they're smart. And there are people who feel lo- who are loved but don't feel loved. For some reason, that love is pouring on them, and it's not getting in- into... it's not getting inside of them. One, one way I like to think of it is like there's a cup of love. This is my cup of love, and you're pouring love to me. You're expressing it, but maybe there's a leak on the bottom, and it's sort of leaking out.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Hmm.
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Or maybe there's sort of a lid, and it's not quite getting in. So lots of reasons why that might happen, but I think the important point is that really it's feeling loved that's critical to happiness, not
- 26:37 – 28:04
Bon Charge ad
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
being loved.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
One of the most underappreciated aspects of health and wellbeing is recovery. Many of us, I think, can be quite good at doing certain things that are good for us, like going for a run or working out in the gym. But I find many people these days have forgotten to prioritize rest and relaxation, which is really important for things like our immune system, reducing stress levels, and to help promote better sleep. Now, I've been using Bon Charge wellness products in my house for around six years, and they have a variety of options to help you prioritize your recovery whilst you are at home, depending, of course, on your needs and budget. Over the years, I personally have enjoyed using their infrared sauna blankets, which I often use after playing paddle to speed up my own recovery. Their PEMF blankets and their red light therapy devices, which I really like, and I'm really looking forward to trying out their brand-new red light blanket, which provides full-body red light therapy to help soothe tired muscles and support post-workout recovery. Bon Charge are giving my audience 20% off all of their products. All you have to do is click the QR code on screen or go to boncharge.com and use code LIVEMORE to save your 20%.
- 28:04 – 30:18
Mighty Stress PDF
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
If you're feeling stressed or as if life is a bit overwhelming, I've put together a free guide to help. It contains three practical tools I've seen help the most when stress starts to build. Now, it's important to recognize that a little bit of stress is normal, but when it accumulates, it can start to have negative consequences for our health and happiness. That's when these simple techniques can make a real difference. I explain all of them in my guide, Break Free from Stress, and it's yours for free today. Simply scan the QR code on screen or tap the first link in the description box below, and I'll send it immediately to your inbox. With a few small changes, you can feel a little calmer right away. Yeah. So, so I think back now to a conversation I had with Bronnie Ware a few years ago.
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Hmm.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
She wrote the book Five Regrets-
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Yes
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
... of the Dying, right?
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Mm-hmm.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
And, and Bronnie and I had the most gorgeous conversation, and one of the re- regrets that she found that people had on their deathbed is that, "I wish I'd spent more time," essentially with friends and family-
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Yeah
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
... uh, uh, basically on my relationships, right? "I wish I hadn't worked so hard. I wish I'd spent more time-
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Yeah
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
... on these relationships" in, in essence. And I guess that in some ways speak to this idea, right? It's this idea of-
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Mm-hmm
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
... love. I wish I'd spent more time on love.
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Mm-hmm.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Had I spent enough time on love, maybe I wouldn't have a regret on my deathbed.
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Mm-hmm.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
But then I think we need to broaden out what we mean-
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Mm-hmm
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
... by love because I would say in the culture here in the UK, love is usually associated with, I guess, romantic-
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Mm-hmm
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
... partnerships or maybe a, um, you can love your family, you can love your children. But we wouldn't typically... Like, a guy in this culture here-
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Yeah
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
... uh, and I [laughs] ... But this came up on a podcast a few years ago with a guy called Nihal Arthanayake when he challenged me to say to my male friends, "I love you."
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Mm-hmm.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Right? And I thought [laughs] initially I was like, "Man, you're kidding
- 30:18 – 38:18
How to Feel More Loved
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
me, like if I said that to them," because it's not what we do.
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Hmm.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
So what, what is, um... You know, how do you think about-
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
[laughs]
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
... the word love?
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Oh, I'd love to challenge you the same thing. So-
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Well, please, yeah.
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
I, I think-
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Let's go any way, direction you want
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
... I think the US is similar. May- maybe UK is a little bit more extreme on this dimension, but yeah, s- again, most people when they think of love, they think of romantic love or family love. This book is, uh, is much more broad.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Yeah.
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
We use love in a broad way. You could love... Of course, we love our friends. We can love our neighbors. We can even love colleagues. I think love should be brought to the workplace as well. Um, my, you know, I, I tell my friends all the time that we, that I love them. Um, I have male friends who will tell, who tell each other that they love each other. I- it's so beautiful.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Mm.
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
I think we could change that, that, um, that norm. I think it's, it would be beautiful to change that social norm. But it's so funny, my kids will be confused because I'll be on the phone and I'll say, "Oh, I love you so much. Oh yeah, I love you so much." And they're like, "Who are you talking to?" [laughs] And I'll say, "Oh, I was talking to my friend X."
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Is that because your kids ha- have grown up in America, so they have a different perception-
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Yeah
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
... of what love means to you?
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Well, I think, I think they are a little bit like what you're describing, that they, like most people-
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
They reserve love-
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Yeah
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
... for just these-
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
That they think there's just, it must, w- you must be talking to a romantic partner or another child or your parent. Um, I mean, I think hopefully they're learning from me. [laughs] But, but anyway, I would say why not? Bring love into other places.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Why?
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Other spaces.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Why is that important?
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Because it's the key to happiness, and, and I think expressing it, it's just so beautiful. Like, if, actually, if your friends start telling you they love you, I bet maybe at first it'll be a little weird or uncomfortable, but it would make you so happy. It makes me so happy when my friends and I share our, you know, share expressed love for each other.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
You just said it's the key-
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Yeah
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
... to happiness.
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Yeah, yeah.
- 38:18 – 40:18
5 Mindsets for Happiness
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
to adopt or, or we can consider adopting if we want to feel more loved.
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Mm-hmm.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Right? So let's assume even if someone's listening, has already got a load of love in their life and they want to... and, and they already feel very loved, which is wonderful, I'm sure there'll be many people who don't, right? So let's explore these five different mindsets. I have my favorites, which we'll get to.
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Okay.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Uh, the first one, of course, is the sharing mindset.
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Mm.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
And I guess you just touched on that now, haven't you, a little bit?
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Yeah.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
What else would you like to say on the sharing mindset, and is this where... I didn't note it down, but you... I, I really love this idea of fast questions, which I-
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Mm-hmm
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
... uh, read about early on in the book.
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Right.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
About these, these questions which very quickly allow you to go deep with someone. Is that, is that under sharing mindset?
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Yeah. It's under the sharing mindset. Uh, it was a long time ago, Art Aron, um, who, who sort of started this idea, yeah. It's called, uh, fast friends.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Fast friends. That was it.
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
This idea of 36 questions that, that become increasingly intimate. So you might start with, like, if you want... If you could have dinner with anyone, who would it be, you know, but it gets, gets much more intimate to, like, you know, what's a traumatic experience in your life, or when was the last time you cried? Um, nowadays, by the way, there's all these, like, conversation card decks that you can buy-
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Mm
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
... you know, on, on the web, and I have friends who actually bring these card decks to dinners-
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Yeah
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
... and they will use them to prompt deep conversation. And, and, and they work because sometimes we're sort of at a, at a loss about what to ask. And again, again, it's Nick Epley who showed this, we're afraid to ask deep questions of each other, right? If I... Like, I think if I asked you a que- a p- really personal question about your life, you might think that I'm prying, right? Or that I'm getting sort of too personal, that I'm nosy, and yet most of us crave to be asked, right? We sort of... I mean, obviously, at the right time-
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Mm-hmm
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
... at the right place, at the right pace, but we crave to be seen. We crave to be heard, right? We want other people to know about our inner life.
- 40:18 – 47:56
Questions That Build Connection
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
And so, yeah, so don't hesitate to ask other people deep questions, and then to try to answer those questions.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
I, I, I wonder if now might be a time for us to-
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
[laughs]
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
... practice or-
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Yeah
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
... or model this.
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Sure. Let's model this. Yeah.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Um, because th- this podcast is, is literally about connection.
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Mm-hmm.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
It's about conversation.
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
I've always said these are not interviews. I don't do interviews.
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Mm-hmm.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Right?
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Mm-hmm.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
What we do on this show is, is have conversations-
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Yeah
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
... where we explore ideas together. So I think, you know, maybe some of those fast friend questions we should try. What was the first one you said about-
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Well, the first one was, like, if you could have dinner with anyone, you know, who would it be?
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
If I could have dinner with anyone-
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Yeah
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
... who would it be?
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
It could be a famous person. It could even be someone who's not... no longer alive.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Honestly-
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Yeah
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
... it would be, um, my dad.
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Hmm.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Yeah.
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Yeah.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Dad died in 2013, and yeah, I guess I, uh... if I could have dinner with anyone-
- 47:56 – 49:24
Do Health
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
you have for them? DO Health is a preventative health app I've created to help you understand when your health is starting to move in the wrong direction. 46% of our members have discovered they had an elevated cardiovascular risk they had no idea about, and over 25% have found out they had suboptimal homocysteine levels, which is really important because elevated homocysteine levels are linked to an increased risk of Alzheimer's and heart attacks, and it's actually really simple to bring down. DO Health takes everything I've learnt about health over the past 25 years and makes it personal to you. An initial blood test screens you for over 50 biomarkers, but then we zero in on the 11 core markers that relate to your metabolic health. And as you may know, poor metabolic health sits at the heart of many of the chronic diseases that affect us, including heart attacks, strokes, and dementia. Every four months, you retest your blood to see what's changing and what's not. And in between, you have unlimited coaching with our in-app Coach Joy, and together we help you build a plan that's personalized to you. If you wanna start your own DO Health journey, you can do so right now. All you have to do is scan the QR code on screen or go to the link
- 49:24 – 56:21
Why Curiosity Makes You Happier
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
in the description box below.
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Well, I think the order of the mindsets might have needed to be changed. [laughs]
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Okay.
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
So can we do that? [laughs]
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Um, so... 'Cause I real- we realized I, after, after writing the book, that if, if I wanna feel loved, the first step is really to make the other person feel loved, and that's happened to me in my life where I had a family member, I didn't feel that loved by her, and so I thought, "Maybe I need to sort of somehow make myself more lovable and show my wonderful qualities." A- and I said, "No," following the book. The first step is to make her feel loved, and the first step is actually radical curiosity.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Hmm.
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
It's called the radical curiosity mindset 'cause the first step is really I show curiosity in you, authentic interest in your inner life and the details of your day and your passion and what you feel to be on the inside of you, and so I start asking questions. And then you tell your story. That's, and that's when sharing comes in. Then you start answering the question.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Hmm.
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
And then you start sharing more of your full self, and then I listen, and that's listening to learn mindset. So we've already covered three. So radical curiosity I've shown you. That helps you. So if I'm really curious about you... And think about, I mean, you're a podcaster, like, so you are naturally curious. In fact, I can't imagine someone... If you're not curious, why, why, why have this job, right?
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Hmm.
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Um, but n- but last time... When was the last time that someone was so curious in you, right? They just couldn't wait for you to finish your sentence to tell your story. It's in- it's like a gift.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Hmm.
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
It's incredibly in... It's p- it's so powerful, right? It feels kind of magical. So when you, when I show curiosity in you, you're gonna feel so good-
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Yeah
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
... and you're gonna wanna share. You're gonna wanna open up, right? Even if you're someone who doesn't open up easily. Then, then the sharing mindset comes in, right? You open up. And then when you're opening up, what do I do? I am listening. I'm listening, what we call listening to learn, right? Instead of listening to respond. I am truly listening. I'm paying attention. I'm comprehending. And I, and I, you know, I'm, I care about what you have to say.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Hmm.
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
And then the idea is, and this is the hard part, most of the time you're gonna reciprocate.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Yeah.
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Right? So the reciprocity norm is one of the most powerful principles of social behavior. You're gonna reciprocate. You're gonna show curiosity and interest in me, and then I start sharing and bearing and, um, yeah, showing more of my true self to you.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Yeah. I think we all reflect on our own lives. We can probably think about moments where that happened.
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Hmm.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Like, I can certainly tell you on, on doing a podcast for almost nine years now-
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Mm-hmm
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
... when I open up, almost certainly the guest will open up. You know, we, we just did that now, didn't we-
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Yeah, yeah, mm-hmm
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
... with those questions. But it, you know, because it almost, I don't know, it breaks the kind of invisible wall.
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Yeah.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
And then suddenly it's like, oh yeah, you know, you're, you're, we're in this together.
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Mm-hmm.
- 56:21 – 1:03:47
The Open Heart Mindset
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
I'm naturally curious.
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
I'm like, what is easier than being curious about another human being?
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Yeah.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Like, everywhere I go, like this barista or coffee shops. I mean, you know, my wife and kids laugh at me.
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Mm-hmm.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
I can talk to anyone about anything.
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Mm-hmm.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
And, and I li- it energizes me-
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Yeah
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
... 'cause I love learning about people.
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Right, right. Okay. But you should not be a curiosity teacher.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Yeah.
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
I think it's, comes too easy for you.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Exactly.
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Yeah. It's kinda like the mathematician who's brilliant, and they can't really teach math 'cause they're just too smart at math. Um, and I think, for me, I am a curious person, but sometimes it's hard for me to be curious, and so I have to kind of force myself. But then I will find something.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Mm.
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
I feel like every human... This is, by the way, this is called social curiosity, which is curiosity about the other person as opposed to a curiosity about a topic, right? 'Cause all of us can be curious about, like, you know, football or, you know, marine biology. Um, but about... I, I feel like every human has something to offer that's interesting and exciting, right, and novel. But sometimes it takes a while to kinda get it to, get that, right, to find that out. And so, for me, it's not so easy. So maybe, I'm just saying, maybe I would be a [laughs] little bit of a better teacher-
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Yeah, for sure
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
... for those who are, who are not so curious. But yeah, it's a state of mind. It's something you can really teach to, to train yourself on. I actually have a student, Madison, who did a study where she had people, like, every day try to be curious about something. And so... And it worked. People, people really did find curious things every day.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Yeah.
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Um.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
I, I, I think it's a very powerful message that you can get better at it.
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Mm-hmm.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
'Cause I think... I, I personally believe that curiosity is one of the most important values to hold-
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Mm-hmm
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
... particularly these days, right?
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Mm-hmm.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
As we, we feel more and more division, right?
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Exactly.
- 1:03:47 – 1:08:18
The Dalai Lama’s Advice on Happiness
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
coffee shop reading-
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Yeah
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
... your book, and I think it was in... I was reading this chapter.
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Mm.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
And I was trying to think about wishing everyone who walked in-
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Yeah, yeah
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
... kindness. The... I remember random people walking in.
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Mm.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
I, I took my head up from the book, and each one I... Just inside my head I thought, "I wish you to have a wonderful day. I wish happiness."
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
I wish you to be happy.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Oh, it was... And it was-
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Mm.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
I felt great.
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Mm-hmm.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
They don't even know why I'm doing it, and I was like, "This is awesome," right?
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Is that amazing? It also really works, um, if you have a colleague or a friend that you're actually not feeling great about, maybe you have a little bit of a fight with them.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Yeah.
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
And sometimes I, I... I remember doing this, and I s- I was saying to myself, "I want them to be happy. I wish that they were happy. I want..." And that really works to kind of reduce-
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Mm
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
... negative energy. Yeah.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Yeah. So tell me about this open heart mindset and-
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Mm
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
... maybe this is where we can bring in your trip to see the Dalai Lama in-
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
[laughs]
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
... because that's, that plays a-
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Yeah
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
... a, a feature in this chapter.
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Yeah, totally. Um, yeah. Open heart, yeah, it's a beautiful thing. So open heart mindset is basically seeing the other person, uh, with warmth and compassion, kindness. Um, the Michelangelo effect is part of the open heart mindset. I actually am teaching a class this week, uh, remotely about the Michelangelo effect, uh, on Friday. Um, so Michelangelo is when you believe in someone. It could be your... m- usually, it's your romantic partner, but it could be someone else, your sister, your best friend. You believe in someone. You want them to be happy. You want them to achieve their dreams, and you help them achieve their dreams and to become their best possible self.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Mm.
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Um, and the reason it's called the Michelangelo effect is that the artist Michelangelo was said to sort of look at a block of stone, just sort of a, s- block stone, and he would see, like, a vision inside of it. He would see a, a person or an angel.
- 1:08:18 – 1:15:12
Is Happiness a Science?
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Yeah.
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Um, and, and I... And when you think about in general, the list of people with whom you share your successes with is the smallest list.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Mm.
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Right? You're, you're more, much more likely to share something negative that happened to you.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
That's a good point.
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Right? When you think about what's the list of people that you would just feel like would, yeah, would, would just be purely happy for you and not at all threatened. You know, we all, you know, we all have insecurities. Um, so yeah, that's a great point. That's a great point. So, like, to find those people. 'Cause I'll, I will like sometimes come home and I'll say, like, if I, something good happens, I, I win an award and I tell my kids, and they'll be like, "Mom, you're boasting." [laughs] And I'm like, "Well, kids, like, if I can't, you know, tell you about my success, who, who can I tell them to?"
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
[laughs]
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
But I think they learn in, in school, like, you're not supposed to boast and, and so I'm not even sure I would put my kids right now on the list of people that I would share my wins with.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
But, but that's interesting, isn't it? That they're perhaps learning-
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Mm
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
... you're not meant to boast. And this comes to this idea that we, we pick up these cultural messages-
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Yeah
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
... all the time, don't we, about what is acceptable and what is unacceptable-
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Yeah
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
... in the particular culture in which you live.
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Yeah.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
And so, yeah, no one in Western culture wants to come across as-
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Mm
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
... you know, showing off-
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Yeah
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
... or boasting.
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Mm-hmm.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Right? But take that to an extreme, it means that you hold back-
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Mm
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
... and you don't share-
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Right
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
... parts of yourself with others, right?
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Ex- yeah, exactly, which is the sharing mindset. And with your mates from Edinburgh, right, you wouldn't think of it as boasting-
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
No
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
... when you, when you share a success. It's just like a beautiful thing that, and, and, and you're so happy for each other. Yeah, I think it's, yeah, maybe that should be like one of these criteria for friends is like if you feel like there's 100% joy-
- 1:15:12 – 1:20:12
Gratitude and Happiness
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
is the scientific method the best way to look at happiness?
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Um, it's ... I don't know if it's the best way. I think it's a very important way. It's interesting. I, okay, a few years ago-
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
You see what I'm getting at?
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Yeah, yeah. A few years ago I would say, yes, it's really the only way, you know? And I've been an em- a rigorous empirical scientist for 36 years. Um, and I think for most of that time, I kinda looked down on people who would give advice that wasn't evidence-based-
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
[laughs]
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
... right? That was not empirical. I mean, you could, I mean, I could respect, say, a, a-
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Like the Dalai Lama
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
... well, here's a ... Well, maybe before I really, you know, had met the Dalai Lama. But thinking, thinking about I would respect, say, a wise person, like a grandmother, right? Who's wise and had a long life and might give you advice. That's, that ... I would respect that. I would respect, say, a therapist who's been, you know ... who's had lots of clients-
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Mm
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
... and has seen lots of different problems and has said, "Well, from all of my experience, this is what I think, you know, people should do." But I still somehow thought, I, I elevated the empirical scientific method-
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Mm
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
... over all of these other, uh, the sources of wisdom and knowledge, which really were, you know, anecdotal and clinical, right? But now, [laughs] now that I'm older, I really, I can ... I don't know. Now I see that these are just different sources of wisdom, and they're all equally valid.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Mm.
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Um, and I also draw now on my own, you know, life e- ... I've lots of life experience. I've lived, like, many lives in a way. You know, I've been single, I've been married, I've been different countries, you know, I've had four kids. Um, and so it used to be if people asked me a question, let's say you asked me, "Sonja, do you think I should write gratitude letters once a day, or once a week, or once a month?" I would say, "Rangan, I have no idea." Because there's no study that actually, you know, empirically tests, you know, that exact question.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Yeah.
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
And now I would say, now I c- I would answer the question. I would say-
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Yeah
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
... "Yeah, there's not exactly a study that, but I know enough from all the research that I've, I've done, I've read, from my life experience, from my friends' experiences, from my therapist," you know? Um, I would give you an answer. So I feel like it's now, I feel like it's equally valid to draw on all these sources of knowledge and wisdom.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Yeah. I, I love that answer. And I guess the, the reason for asking is-
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Yeah
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
... because I think all sources of knowledge and wisdom are valid.
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Mm-hmm.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
And I think we need-
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Mm-hmm
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
... to look at them all.
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Yeah.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Right? So in, in my world of health-
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Mm-hmm
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
... scientific research is very important, but so is clinical experience.
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Mm-hmm.
- 1:20:12 – 1:26:42
The Dalai Lama’s Biggest Lessons
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
idea that there are people out there like the Dalai Lama-
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Yeah
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
... who seem to have wisdom-
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Mm-hmm
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
... like really, really insightful wisdom-
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
... to share with us-
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Mm-hmm
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
... who have not-
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Right
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
... done research. It's fascinating, isn't it? Well, what did you say before about-
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
I know
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
... um, loving others, right? And love thy... Well, in the, in the, in the Bible, it's like, you know, love thy neighbor-
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
He said it all
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
... like yourself. It's all there.
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Well, a couple things. First of all, people... I will get emails to say, "All your research is in the Bible," right?
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Exactly.
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Forgiveness and gratitude. Um, but when I was r- preparing to read, write my first book, so it was published in 2007. I was writing in 2005, um, long time ago, 21 years ago. And so I decided to read a bunch of self-help happiness books first just to see what's out there, and I read The Art of Happiness by His Holiness. And I o- I've often said since then, and, and you know, before then, that that's, that's the best book of happiness out there-
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Mm-hmm
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
... you know, that I had read. Um, and it's just as you say, like even though he's not a scientist, pretty much everything he's, he writes in The Art of Happiness is true.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Yeah. I guess some people, maybe it depends how you've been brought up, right?
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Mm-hmm.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
It depends on, on what you believe. Like, I guess if you've been brought up to believe in the sci- see the scientific method, and actually that we can only look at the world through the lens of science-
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Yeah
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
... then you will need scientific evidence before you write in your gratitude journal, right? Now, you know, as it happens, there is a lot of research-
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
There is, yeah, yeah
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
... on the benefits of gratitude.
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Mm-hmm.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
But some people won't do it. They go, "What? Gratitude? What, what you, what you want to write down-
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Yeah
- 1:26:42 – 1:34:40
Why Being Less Judgmental Makes You Happier
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
face is just, exudes such warmth. I'm really into, like, people who are warm, you know?
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Yeah.
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
And I'm not even sure what it means. Like, you know it when you see it.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Yeah.
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
'Cause often the eyes are just kind. Like, you have kind eyes, actually.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Oh, thank you.
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Yeah, kind and... You know what I mean? Some people are just warm, and, and he's... And some people aren't. They might have... They might be so funny and interesting and smart and fun to hang out with, but they're not necessarily warm. So I love the warmth. Hugging him. That, when he said love is a feeling, not a decision. And then the third thing that he said that I thought was, that I also wrote down, that I thought was so powerful, he said, "Excessive self-focus is the door to all misery." Excessive self-focus is the door to all misery. And I thought it was so just wonderful how he put it, and it's something that a lot of my and others' research has also supported. That when we're too focused on ourselves, you know, we're gonna be unhappy, and that almost everything we're talking about today is about a focus on others, right?
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Yeah.
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
On loving others and listening to others and showing curiosity in others.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
That, that, that, that irony being that most of us now walk around with a phone in our pockets that has a camera that we can focus on ourselves.
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Right.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Right? Like, we've literally got selfie cameras-
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
[laughs]
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
... all of us, right?
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Yeah.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
And, and this is the new norm.
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Mm-hmm.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
But I think about that as a contrast to what you heard from the Dalai Lama-
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Mm
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
... right? An excessive focus-
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Mm
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
... on the self. These flipping smartphones are, for many of us, creating an excessive focus on the self. The... You know, now it's standard, isn't it, to use it as your mirror. You know? If I just look as a snapshot of society-
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Yeah
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
... we have a device around with us-
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Yeah
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
... that is constantly encouraging a focus on the self.
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Mm-hmm. And video calls, I just read that, you know, we have the self-view.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Yeah.
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
And I would say everyone turn off the self-view every time. Don't ever have the self-view on. And I actually read somewhere that we- 70% of the time we're looking at, at ourselves-
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Yeah
- 1:34:40 – 1:38:17
How Understanding Others Makes You Feel Loved
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
from the behavior, um-
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Yeah, I read recently that there's a well-known personality online who's getting, you know, battered with all kinds of reels at the moment.
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Mm-hmm.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Right? Um, everyone's making fun of this personality-
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Mm-hmm
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
... and, and making videos, and I'm just like, man, guys-
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Wow
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
... this is a lot to be putting on one person. Whatever your view is of that individual, just imagine being on the receiving end of that from a lot of people-
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Yeah
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
... all around the world. It's not a nice thing.
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Mm-hmm.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
But I was reading the other day about this idea that collective schadenfreude-
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Mm-hmm
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
... is one of the fastest ways to feel connected.
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Yeah.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
So mocking someone-
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Yeah
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
... and, uh, taking, uh, joy in their misfortune-
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Mm-hmm
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
... especially when they're well-known, schadenfreude.
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
And then doing it collectively-
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Yeah
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
... so we're all do- we're all bonding together-
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Yeah. Mm-hmm
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
... over this experience of judging another human.
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Yeah. Yeah.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
And, and it's quite interesting to watch it play out-
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Mm
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
... in real time. I'm like, oh, wow.
- 1:38:17 – 1:44:52
How to Practise Acceptance
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
People are contradictory. They can be selfish and kind-
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Mm-hmm
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
... small-minded and generous, extroverted and insecure.
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Mm-hmm.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Our minds don't like contradiction. That's the point, isn't it?
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Yeah.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Our minds don't like contradiction.
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Yeah.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
We want things to be neat, orderly, categorizable, because it helps us to make sense of the world and allows us to stay comfortable-
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Mm-hmm
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
... and self-righteous. I mean, it's so beautiful, isn't it? But it, but it gets to the heart of this. It's, it's messy-
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Mm-hmm
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
... to acknowledge-
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Mm-hmm
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
... that actually someone can do a selfish act, but the entirety of them is not a selfish person.
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Yeah.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
And even this idea that we have this within ourselves-
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Mm-hmm
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
... right? I think that is a very powerful realization to go, you've got all of this inside you as well-
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
... and if the conditions were right, it may come out of you as well.
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Yeah.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
And I, I, I think that humanity is a really important, particularly today.
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
It's... I know, particularly today, and yet it's so hard. So I've, I've been thinking about the mul- m- I've been thinking about the multiplicity mindset for years now, and yet in my own life, again, I have to really override the judgmentalness with effort. You know, even it do- it's still not, not easy for me. Um, I still, when I see someone act selfishly, my first reaction is, "They're selfish." And then I have to kind of, I have to kind of take a beat and be like, "Okay, this is a selfish behavior in a, in a person full of many other qualities," right? Um, so it's really hard. Oh, you know, one of my pet peeves recently is that, I don't know if you've noticed, and maybe this is true in America, everyone's ex is a narcissist. So people are talking about their exes, everyone's ex is a nar- is a narcissist. Everyone's ex is a narcissist, or their parents are narcissists. And it's like, no, that's not true. First of all, we're all narcissists. It's a continuum.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Yeah.
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
We're just sort of lower or higher on it. But anyway, that's just an example of, like, people are just giving lab- it's just easier to give someone a label.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Like Sa- Sar says-
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Yeah
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
... our minds don't like contradiction.
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
[laughs]
- 1:44:52 – 1:49:42
How to Feel More Loved and Happier
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
the exercise.
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Mm-hmm.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Begin by identifying one of your partner's behaviors that you find especially difficult or frustrating-
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Mm-hmm
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
... and have them do the same for you. That in and of itself, right, I think would be powerful, right?
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Mm-hmm.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Okay? If it's done in a calm environment and situation, I think, you know, being open and honest and sharing that I think would be quite powerful. But that's not it. That's like step one.
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Yeah.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Step... You know, the example is perhaps they work too much, constantly interrupts-
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
[laughs]
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
... forgets important plans-
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
[laughs]
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
... or fail to pull their weights on household chores. Okay, whatever it is.
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Yeah.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Then for one week, commit to observing these behaviors-
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Mm-hmm
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
... with full awareness and without judgment.
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Mm-hmm.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
This means acknowledging the behavior with curiosity and compassion without trying to ignore, fix-
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Mm
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
... criticize, or interpret.
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Yeah.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
And this is like, like quite a hard game to play.
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
It's a hard one.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Okay. At the end of the week-
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Mm-hmm
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
... reflect together-
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Mm-hmm
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
... how adopting an attitude of mindful acceptance shifted the dynamic between you and your partner.
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Mm-hmm.
- 1:49:42 – 1:59:11
Final Thoughts on Happiness
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
it's not really telling you what to do or how to feel. It, it's giving you the guidelines on how to do the exercise-
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Mm-hmm
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
... but at the end of it, you're saying, at the end of the week, you can ask yourself-
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Mm-hmm
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
... how was it when you didn't judge- When you just observed
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Mm-hmm
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Right? Yeah. The thing may still annoy you
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Mm-hmm
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Or maybe you'll ... Maybe you've shifted your perspective somewhat. Maybe you've realized, actually, you know what, I don't have to say something every time.
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
If I don't criticize every time, I don't... If I just watch and observe. Like, I don't know what I'm going to find, but I think it's a really interesting one. I, I love exercises that help us develop self-awareness.
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Yeah.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Yeah. I'm not a fan of stuff where people are told what to do.
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Mm-hmm.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
It's like I don't... I, I've never seen that with patients work in the long term. I think that works in the short term, but over time, people have to understand why they're eating this way, why they're doing this exercise. Do they feel better when they do that? Do they feel worse? That's the only way things become sustainable-
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Yeah
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
... in my experience. And so I love that idea that you can try that for seven days and then just see. Does, does-
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Mm-hmm
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
... do things feel different? So I will email you and I will let you know.
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
I can't wait.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Look, we, we, we could talk, uh, for so long about this topic. I, I'm truly fascinated by all your research. Even the book and this, this, this idea of feeling loved is the most important thing to happiness, I think is, is a very novel concept.
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Mm-hmm.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
We, we know that relationships are important and that connection is important. We know that, you know, being loved is important. But feeling loved-
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Yeah
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
... I, I, I honestly think you and Harry have done something really wonderful by, by putting this idea and putting it out there to us to, to, to think about how can we feel more love in our lives. So I want to acknowledge you for that and thank you. For someone who has, I guess, realized throughout this conversation-
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Mm-hmm
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
... that they're not happy-
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
Mm-hmm
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
... and that they don't feel loved in their life, what advice would you give to them?
- SLSonja Lyubomirsky
I would say for someone who doesn't feel loved and is not happy, I would say that it's under your control. I mean, I think this is... I think is a powerful message of our book, is that when people don't feel loved, they think, "Oh, it feels very overwhelming. It feels like, what do I do? Um, I need to make myself more lovable, somehow convince the other person to love me. I need to change myself, or I need to change the other person. I need to, yes, persuade them that I'm lovable, that they need to love me." And that doesn't seem very feasible to me. Um, and in, and what we're arguing in this book, Harry and I, is that if you wanna feel more loved, you don't need to change yourself. You don't need to change the other person. You just need to change the conversation, because a relationship is a series of conversations. You need to change the, the next conversation and the one after that and the one after that. And how do you change those conversations? By applying the five mindsets, by showing, by asking questions with curiosity, by sharing something about yourself, by listening, truly listening to learn, not listening to fix things, by listening with warmth, with kindness, by listening with acceptance and forgiveness. So it's really about what to do in your next set of conversations with that best friend, with the partner, with your mom. So it's really... It's, it's under your control. It's actually empowering.
Episode duration: 1:59:11
Install uListen for AI-powered chat & search across the full episode — Get Full Transcript
Transcript of episode F_IiMMLX0xQ
