How Your Personality Is Silently Causing Inflammation (And Making You Sick)

1. 0:00 – 1:01

   Personality traits and their immune-system fingerprints

   1. JMJenna Macciochi0:00

      These five major personality types, so they are kind of roughly divided into, like, openness to experience, conscientiousness, extrovertedness, agreeableness, and neuroticism. So in psychology terms, they're kind of ways that we can be categorized based on our personality. Um, and each of these personality types have specific immunological features, and one of the most interesting thing is that, um, some of them are more likely to be pro-inflammatory and have higher levels of C-reactive protein, which is a marker in the blood for, for inflammation. Um, and things like being neurotic and, um, being, uh, sort of less introverted, it can affect the inflammation in our body. It's because I guess we're all very different. We're all on a sort of spectrum of different personalities, but that's evolved from maybe different roles you might play within a community, um, and then what your exposure to different infections

2. 1:01 – 1:22

   Why anger can prime inflammation: an evolutionary lens

   1. JMJenna Macciochi1:01

      might be or your risk of getting injured. Um, things like anger is known to prime the body for, um, for becoming damaged because maybe anger preceded violence, and throughout our evolution, we've like, "Okay, if you're angry, something might happen that might damage you, so we need to prime parts of our immune system to prepare for that."

3. 1:22 – 2:51

   Forgiveness as a biological intervention (and a clinic story)

   1. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:22

      Yes. You mention anger, and it's something I wrote about, I feel, about in five, is the importance of forgiveness.

   2. JMJenna Macciochi1:26

      Mm-hmm.

   3. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:27

      There is good research on forgiveness.

   4. JMJenna Macciochi1:29

      Yeah.

   5. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:29

      A guy called Fred Luskin's done the Stanford University, I think, forgiveness trial or research. The... I can't remember the exact name.

   6. JMJenna Macciochi1:36

      Yeah.

   7. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:37

      His research is incredible, and I, I shared in my last book a story about one of my patients who had high blood pressure, and which again, you know, to, to, to make it relevant to our conversation, you know, high blood pressure is a chronic-

   8. JMJenna Macciochi1:53

      Mm-hmm

   9. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:53

      ... non-communicable illness that, you know, will have chronic inflammation-

   10. JMJenna Macciochi1:57

       Yeah

   11. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:57

       ... playing a role-

   12. JMJenna Macciochi1:59

       Yeah

   13. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:59

       ... in some way. And you know what? She had changed her lifestyle. I was... You know, I was doing the stuff I try and, uh, talk about, food and movement and sleep. You know what? It wasn't budging.

   14. JMJenna Macciochi2:10

       Mm-hmm.

   15. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee2:11

       And it was to do with, um, you know, basically her, um, her husband of many years had cheated on her-

   16. JMJenna Macciochi2:19

       Yeah

   17. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee2:19

       ... and they had split up, and it was only once she started practicing forgiveness-

   18. JMJenna Macciochi2:25

       Mm-hmm

   19. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee2:26

       ... right, that her blood pressure started going down. It-

   20. JMJenna Macciochi2:30

       Oh

   21. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee2:30

       ... it was incredible, and so and that's a, like, that's an anecdotal story from my clinic.

   22. JMJenna Macciochi2:35

       Yeah.

   23. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee2:35

       But, uh, it really... I think it does stand, uh, firm-

   24. JMJenna Macciochi2:41

       Mm-hmm

   25. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee2:42

       ... and consistent with the research that is out there in terms of if you're holding onto resentment-

   26. JMJenna Macciochi2:46

       Yeah

   27. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee2:46

       ... and anger, that will influence your biology-

   28. JMJenna Macciochi2:50

       Yeah

   29. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee2:50

       ... and your immune system.

4. 2:51 – 3:44

   Social status, marginalization, and stress biology

   1. JMJenna Macciochi2:51

      Exactly, and it, maybe that is culturally what we see d- dividing different groups in how they deal with illness as well because they may feel, uh, uh, marginalized. I think social status is also really important. I know that i- in the animal kingdom, being lower down the pecking order can be quite stressful for an animal, and that can be seen in its, its blood chemistry, but also for us humans. Um, and I think that's-

   2. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee3:19

      Yeah

   3. JMJenna Macciochi3:19

      ... you know, something that w- we see playing out with the sort of lower socioeconomic, um, uh, demographics are worse hit by some of these lifestyle related diseases.

   4. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee3:29

      Yeah, and-

   5. JMJenna Macciochi3:29

      They may have more stressful lifestyles and...

   6. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee3:32

      But we alwa- we put it down, don't we, to, oh, less access to good food, more stress, and of course I think those play a role.

   7. JMJenna Macciochi3:39

      Mm-hmm.

   8. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee3:40

      But what if it's also related to status as it is-

   9. JMJenna Macciochi3:43

      Yeah

   10. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee3:43

       ... in the animal kingdom? What-

   11. JMJenna Macciochi3:44

       Yeah

5. 3:44 – 4:11

   Purpose and meaning as upstream drivers of health

   1. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee3:44

      ... you know, that's something I hadn't probably given as much thought to, and it's probably not as common a narrative. It's h- where do you... I guess it's, you know, in many ways it's do you feel your [laughs] life has purpose?

   2. JMJenna Macciochi3:57

      Yes. Yeah.

   3. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee3:59

      Do you know? How do you see your life? What's the meaning behind it? Because that as well in itself has a huge amount of research suggesting, it's a, you know, if you feel your life has meaning and value, you tend to have a happier and healthier life.

6. 4:11 – 6:09

   Culture flips the stress–immunity relationship: EBV reactivation example

   1. JMJenna Macciochi4:11

      Yeah. I mean, another piece of research I came across recently was comparing, um, Samoan individuals to European individuals with, um, Epstein-Barr virus, which is a virus that almost all of us harbor, but when we activate our stress chemistry, um, this can be actually a sign that the virus uses to allow itself to reactivate and, and cause problems. And we know in the Western culture that being of a lower socioeconomic status means that you're more likely to experience viral reactivation. But in the Samoan culture, um, being on a lower socioeconomic status has a totally different impact on the stress chemistry that actually meant it was the people in the higher socioeconomic bracket that were worse affected by latent viral reactivation. And this is just an, you know, they used the viral reactivation as a readout, an empirical way of, of measuring the immune system changes, but-

   2. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee5:08

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   3. JMJenna Macciochi6:05

      ... i- in different cultures, you know, you... And we never think about this-

   4. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee6:08

      Yeah

   5. JMJenna Macciochi6:08

      ... in medicine.

7. 6:09 – 7:07

   Broadening medicine: integrating biomedicine with anthropology

   1. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee6:09

      I mean, what's that like for you as a scientist and as a lecturer? These are the kind of... You know, these would be, these would be perceived as the kind of softer-

   2. JMJenna Macciochi6:18

      Yes, yeah

   3. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee6:19

      ... aspects of health and science, but it's, you know, that, that data-

   4. JMJenna Macciochi6:23

      We need to-

   5. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee6:23

      ... is data, right?

   6. JMJenna Macciochi6:24

      Exactly. We need to bring it together. A lot of the data is actually quite old now, but I guess it's just been parked there, and we have this real kind of biomedical model where we focus in on one cell type, and what is that cell doing, and it's really reductionist, and then we try and piece the jigsaw together. And we kinda need to fuse it with the anthropology and be like, okay, now how do we bring these two fields together? Because that's the only way we can tackle, I think, where we're at-

   7. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee6:49

      Yeah

   8. JMJenna Macciochi6:49

      ... with our health.

   9. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee6:50

      And, and, you know, you, you sort of, you, you really beautifully bridge it throughout the book, all these different components.

   10. JMJenna Macciochi6:57

       Mm-hmm.

   11. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee6:58

       Emotions, food, movement, sleep, stress.

   12. JMJenna Macciochi7:01

       Yeah.

   13. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee7:01

       You know, you... It's got a nice section on supplements as well, which we probably won't be able to get into today. Um, but-

8. 7:07 – 8:48

   Joy at the table: how shared meals shape immune regulation

   1. JMJenna Macciochi7:07

      And the, um, the joy of the table, so the gioia della tavola, which is an Italian phrase for enjoying being at the table, and linking what we were talking about earlier with food to emotions. You know, make your table a joyous place to be, because the endorphins from enjoying being at your table with your family, your friends, or even on your own and just enjoying the meal, endorphins can alter the function of our immune cells, because they have receptors for those on them. So those feelgood hormones, that actually helps nurture things like the T regs, the regulatory T cells. So bringing the food together with the emotion and, and enjoying that, that's so, so important.

   2. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee7:51

      Yeah.

   3. JMJenna Macciochi7:51

      I mean, we haven't had a kitchen for the last four months, so we've had no table [laughs] and no joy, but we've still been trying to cobble together as a family, you know, little meals on the floor, and it's just-

   4. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee8:03

      It's, it, it... You know what? It... I'm so delighted to hear you speak about these things, because I think these are things we've missed-

   5. JMJenna Macciochi8:12

      Mm-hmm

   6. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee8:13

      ... in health advice.

   7. JMJenna Macciochi8:14

      Yeah.

   8. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee8:14

      It has been too reductionist. You know, eating at a table with, you know, your community, your-

   9. JMJenna Macciochi8:22

      Yeah

   10. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee8:22

       ... tribe has kind of always been a part of human culture.

   11. JMJenna Macciochi8:25

       Yeah.

   12. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee8:26

       And I, and I think i- in, in... If you sort of extend the argument that you're making, it's kinda like, well, you could potentially eat the same foods-

   13. JMJenna Macciochi8:34

       Mm-hmm

   14. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee8:35

       ... feeling stressed out and lonely-

   15. JMJenna Macciochi8:37

       Yeah

   16. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee8:39

       ... and the same food might have a different response if you're eating it with good friends when you're feeling relaxed and calm.

   17. JMJenna Macciochi8:47

       Yeah, exactly.

9. 8:48 – 20:57

   Stress changes digestion: food reactions, nocebo, and ‘holiday tolerance’

   1. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee8:48

      I, I, I'm convinced of it. You know, one thing I've really, I've, I've observed clinically maybe for two, three years now-

   2. JMJenna Macciochi8:54

      Mm-hmm

   3. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee8:54

      ... a lot of people these days are reacting or, or perceive themselves as reacting to foods.

   4. JMJenna Macciochi8:58

      Yes.

   5. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee8:59

      And I think what's really interesting for me is, and I think I really got this in the year preceding me writing The Stress Solution, was I thought, well, if stress changes your, uh, your gut and your GI tract and your, your-

   6. JMJenna Macciochi9:15

      Mm-hmm

   7. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee9:15

      ... digestion significantly as it does, well, are they actually reacting to the foods, or are they reacting to the fact that they're eating in a stressed state?

   8. JMJenna Macciochi9:24

      Mm-hmm.

   9. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee9:24

      And I've seen with some patients, the same food, if they do some sort of what I call the transition-

   10. JMJenna Macciochi9:30

       Mm-hmm

   11. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee9:30

       ... between, you know, action state and eating, so when they do that for one or two minutes before eating-

   12. JMJenna Macciochi9:36

       Yeah

   13. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee9:36

       ... they're no longer reacting to the same foods.

   14. JMJenna Macciochi9:40

       Yeah.

   15. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee9:40

       Which, you know, is-

   16. JMJenna Macciochi9:42

       I think this has even been shown with gluten as the nocebo effect.

   17. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee9:46

       Yeah.

   18. JMJenna Macciochi9:46

       Which, and people say this all the time, "I go on holiday, I can eat the bread. It doesn't make me feel bloated. But the bread at home must be somehow different." Maybe it's different, but also, you're different. You're in a different frame of mind when you're on holiday, and you're eating, and you're chewing your food as you look at the lovely vista-

   19. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee10:02

       Yeah

   20. JMJenna Macciochi10:02

       ... and you're just feeling more relaxed and-

   21. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee10:05

       One of the most important pillars for our health is, of course, nutrition, but I think because of our busy, stressed out lives, so many people are struggling despite their best intentions. So many patients over the years have told me that they know what they should be doing, [laughs] but they're struggling to actually do it, and that's why I'm a fan of AG1. AG1 is a daily health drink that contains over 70 vitamins, minerals, and other ingredients that are designed to make nutrition really easy. It's been in my own life for over six years now. It's simple, it's tasty, it's convenient, and it forms a part of my morning routine. People will routinely tell me that taking AG1 regularly has improved their focus, their cognition, their energy. Some people even tell me that they drink less coffee when they're taking AG1. And there's research out there showing us that taking AG1 regularly can improve specific markers of your gut health, which is really good for your immune health. So if you're looking to upgrade your own nutrition in a simple, tasty, and convenient way, try AG1. To get a free bottle of vitamin D and five free travel packs, go to drinkag1.com/livemore.

   22. JMJenna Macciochi11:23

       That's affecting your digestion and-

   23. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee11:25

       This stuff matters-

   24. JMJenna Macciochi11:27

       Yeah

   25. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee11:27

       ... more than people think. You know, when I, I really don't, I hardly, pretty much don't drink anymore, um, but when I did, I used to remember that I'd go on holiday and, like, you know, a glass of red wine would affect my sleep in the UK or-

   26. JMJenna Macciochi11:42

       Mm-hmm

   27. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee11:42

       ... you know, I'd feel a bit groggy the next day. But I found when I was on holiday, I could have a glass or two with dinner-

   28. JMJenna Macciochi11:48

       Yeah

   29. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee11:48

       ... and I felt nothing.

   30. JMJenna Macciochi11:50

       Yeah.
10. 12:14 – 14:54

    Escaping the ‘food prison’: boundaries, saying no, and stress relief

    1. JMJenna Macciochi12:14

       Exactly. I call it the food prison, you know? I see so many people who are so stressed about eating the perfect diet that that's, that's just eroding their health. Never mind what they're eating-

    2. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee12:26

       Yeah

    3. JMJenna Macciochi12:26

       ... being, being helpful. Um, but I guess, you know, you asked me earlier about what I do [laughs] to manage my stress, and I think it's my s- still my learning curve, but it's just on my radar now, that I'm, I'm, I'm always experimenting. I'm learning how to say no. I think having boundaries was one of the biggest things I, I learned as an adult. Like, why are we not teaching kids this in school? And saying no is okay, and there's a time and a place for projects.

    4. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee12:53

       Yeah.

    5. JMJenna Macciochi12:54

       If I wanna get involved and it, it can't be now because that compromises my time as a mother or my time spent with family or my time just, oh, you know, being on my own or doing the things that-

    6. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee13:06

       Yeah

    7. JMJenna Macciochi13:06

       ... nurture my day, then I have to say no and let go of that.

    8. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee13:11

       Yeah.

    9. JMJenna Macciochi13:11

       And I guess that's like, you know, the catharticism of writing or some ways of, y- you know, putting a narrative to what's stressing us out has a release to it.

    10. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee13:22

        Yeah.

    11. JMJenna Macciochi13:22

        And that you can feel that, you know, like a big physiological sigh that your body is making when you're like, "Okay." And once the decision's made, you move on from it.

    12. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee13:32

        Yeah.

    13. JMJenna Macciochi13:32

        I've said no to that. It's sad, and I wish I could say yes, but I don't think about it the next day when I've moved on and other things are, you know, forefront of me.

    14. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee13:40

        It's very freeing, actually.

    15. JMJenna Macciochi13:42

        Mm-hmm.

    16. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee13:42

        You know, something I struggled with for years, and it's, I'm getting much better at it, but it's, it feels good.

    17. JMJenna Macciochi13:49

        Yeah.

    18. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee13:49

        You... Half the time I used to say yes to stuff, and then I would just be stressed out. "Well, why did I say yes? I've got to do this. I've committed now."

    19. JMJenna Macciochi13:56

        Yeah.

    20. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee13:56

        "They've started advertising it. They don't..." And I, I'm, I'm getting much better at nipping it in the bud-

    21. JMJenna Macciochi14:00

        Yeah

    22. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee14:01

        ... at source.

    23. JMJenna Macciochi14:02

        Yes. [laughs]

    24. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee14:02

        And, you know, and it's, but it's taken a lot of work.

    25. JMJenna Macciochi14:04

        Oh, yeah. I had to learn the hard way.

    26. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee14:07

        Yeah.

    27. JMJenna Macciochi14:07

        Um, but the, I started feeling like I was doing everything badly. And when you start to feel like you're being a bad parent, probably I wasn't, but in my mind-

    28. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee14:16

        Yeah

    29. JMJenna Macciochi14:16

        ... I wasn't doing what I wanted to do. And that, I think, with my kids, I just, that had to be a firm line that I-

    30. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee14:22

        Yeah
11. 14:54 – 17:35

    Conditioning the immune system: placebo, rituals, and sensory pairing

    1. JMJenna Macciochi14:54

       Yeah. That, this is a, it's really interesting, actually. So this was, um, data that was generated in the 1980s. There were some scientists who were trying to disprove research that had come out of Russia around that time about conditioning. So the classical example of conditioning is Pavlov's dogs. Um, most people will be aware of that. But they're, these experiments they had done where they, they had looked to try and condition the immune system. And so the scientists were like, "This, this can't be right." Uh, you know, "We, we're gonna redo the experiments much more stringently and, um, see i- if it's is really what it makes out to be. Can you condition your immune system with various rituals and routines?" And what they did was they, they used an animal, uh, model experiment, and they gave the, the animals a s- a sweet solution to drink. And, uh, one group got the sweet solution that also had a particular chemical inside it that would modulate antibody responses. So they could measure the antibody responses in the blood and see, um, if, uh, that there was an effect hap- happening, some kind of readout, tangible piece of data that they could observe. Um, so the mice were given these, this sugar solution with this chemical for a period of time, and after a while when they just gave the sugar solution on its own, they got the same effect happening to the immune system. So it's kind of like a placebo effect.

    2. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee16:23

       Wow.

    3. JMJenna Macciochi16:23

       It's like y- you expect something. The mouse expected this effect to take place in its body on some kind of subconscious level because, uh, it was so used to that happening, that the, it, the effect happened anyway, even without the chemical presence to actually cause the modulation to the immune system. And people have been scratching around to try and understand the mechanism, and I think the best we've come up with is the, the placebo effect. Like, it's, it, it, there's some part of us that we don't quite understand that embodies things. And w- when there's a, a response expected, that the biology changes. And we can start to pair things together. So what you're referring to in the book is, like, the kind of little stress-relieving rituals, like, f- you know, playing your favorite music whilst you're doing something like taking a, a nice bath or, uh, having a s- particular scent being in the room-

    4. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee17:24

       Yeah

    5. JMJenna Macciochi17:25

       ... while you're doing something else, and eventually then you just can play that music and you start to feel the same relaxed feeling that you do when you're in a nice warm bath, even without taking the bath.

12. 17:35 – 20:19

    Designing calming spaces and routines that ‘train’ safety

    1. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee17:35

       Yeah. You know, it makes me think about, you know, if your home is or has been a stressful place-

    2. JMJenna Macciochi17:42

       Mm-hmm

    3. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee17:43

       ... then, you know, that it kinda works that you may come into that and y- your body may start to almost-

    4. JMJenna Macciochi17:50

       Yeah

    5. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee17:50

       ... the immune system might sense that and go, "Okay-

    6. JMJenna Macciochi17:52

       Yeah

    7. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee17:52

       ... this is a stressful place," and, and react even if nothing stressful happens.

    8. JMJenna Macciochi17:56

       Yes.

    9. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee17:57

       But then you could also flip it and, you know, I'm a huge fan of ritual and sort of daily-

    10. JMJenna Macciochi18:02

        Mm-hmm

    11. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee18:02

        ... practices that even if they only take five minutes-

    12. JMJenna Macciochi18:04

        Yeah

    13. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee18:04

        ... they can be very powerful. And I think when I hear that, I think of a morning routine, and I think-What if someone, you know, can design their ideal morning routine? Let's say c- let's say it was five, 10 minutes.

    14. JMJenna Macciochi18:16

        Yeah.

    15. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee18:16

        You know, a bit of maybe a minute or two of breathing.

    16. JMJenna Macciochi18:18

        Yeah.

    17. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee18:19

        Um, you know, three or four minutes of some light movement practice.

    18. JMJenna Macciochi18:23

        Yeah.

    19. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee18:24

        And then let's say five minutes of reading a positive book.

    20. JMJenna Macciochi18:26

        Yeah.

    21. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee18:26

        For example, I mean, that's, you know, I, I, in The Stress Solution I write about the three M's of a morning routine, mindfulness, movement, and mindsets.

    22. JMJenna Macciochi18:33

        Mm-hmm.

    23. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee18:33

        I think you can create one that lasts an hour. You can create one that lasts five minutes. But the point I'm trying to make is, if someone started doing that in the same room, let's say they lit a candle-

    24. JMJenna Macciochi18:45

        Yeah

    25. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee18:45

        ... in the room, did that, that even on a day when they're a little bit busy or they haven't quite, they can't quite-

    26. JMJenna Macciochi18:52

        Yeah

    27. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee18:52

        ... switch off and they just, you know, sat there with their coffee with the candle on-

    28. JMJenna Macciochi18:55

        Yes

    29. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee18:56

        ... maybe that will also condition their immune system the other way and go, "Hey, things are okay-

    30. JMJenna Macciochi19:02

        Exactly
13. 20:19 – 20:57

    Agency and empowerment: ‘building’ routines and immune resilience

    1. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee20:19

       I, I, I love the way you, the, the way you say certain things. You said, you know, we can build a routine.

    2. JMJenna Macciochi20:24

       Mm-hmm.

    3. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee20:25

       Like, you can build your immune system.

    4. JMJenna Macciochi20:27

       Yeah.

    5. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee20:27

       This, it's a very empowering words.

    6. JMJenna Macciochi20:30

       Yeah.

    7. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee20:30

       You know, build means we can do that, right?

    8. JMJenna Macciochi20:32

       Yes.

    9. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee20:32

       It doesn't mean it's fixed.

    10. JMJenna Macciochi20:33

        Exactly.

    11. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee20:34

        We, we've got some agency over that.

    12. JMJenna Macciochi20:36

        Yeah.

    13. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee20:37

        [Instrumental music] If you enjoyed that short clip, I think you are really going to enjoy the full conversation, which you can check out here. [upbeat music]

Episode duration: 20:58