“I Lost My Son… Then Trained My Mind to Be Happy Again” | Mo Gawdat

1. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee0:00

   It seems to me that there are at least three things that you believe that not everyone else in the world believes.

2. MGMo Gawdat0:09

   Is that true? I'd like to be informed about those. [laughs]

3. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee0:11

   Okay.

4. MGMo Gawdat0:12

   Yeah.

5. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee0:12

   So I thought we'd start by going through those three things-

6. MGMo Gawdat0:14

   Yeah

7. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee0:14

   ... and getting your take on them. So you passionately believe that happiness is a choice.

8. MGMo Gawdat0:18

   100%.

9. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee0:19

   Not everyone shares that perspective.

10. MGMo Gawdat0:23

    Yeah. Uh, h- absolute happiness is not anyone's choice. Suffering is part of life, by definition. Uh, but choosing to be happier is 100% within your grasp. Everyone absolutely has the ability to, uh, to, to learn a skill or to, uh, uh, reframe a thought or to, uh, surround themselves by what they need to find a little bit of a happier life. That's absolutely no doubt. And so if, if you can change yourself from, say, minus one to minus .5 or from minus one to plus .5, then that by definition means you have a choice. And so that choice is not absolute, but it's definitely there when it comes to your relative state of happiness.

11. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:07

    The, the idea of absolute happiness versus becoming happier I find really interesting. So let's go to an extreme scenario. I think you've touched on it already, this idea that, let's say someone is living in incredible struggle, and there are lots of things going on in their life outside of their control.

12. MGMo Gawdat1:28

    Mm-hmm.

13. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:29

    The natural belief that many people take from that is, if those external circumstances changed, I would be happier.

14. MGMo Gawdat1:39

    Correct.

15. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:40

    How does that sit alongside your perspective that happiness is a choice?

16. MGMo Gawdat1:46

    So that's not always ... That, that belief is not true because, you know, many people who don't have those circumstances are still unhappy, and many people who have those circumstances are happy. So you see, the idea is, um, there is no inherent, um, value of happiness in anything. Mm. Uh, you know, the, the joke I always make is that, you know, rain doesn't make you happy or unhappy, honestly. Rain depends on what you want from life. If, if it's, you know, if it's your ex's wedding, uh, you'd like rain. Rain is a good idea, right? And, and so basically, the externalization of my happiness is because of what the world is giving me, uh, in an interesting way, is a six-year-old behavior. It's basically, uh, giving up on your, uh, autonomy, on your agency in your own happiness by saying, "You see? You know, life is giving me, uh, lemons again."

17. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee2:42

    Mm-hmm.

18. MGMo Gawdat2:43

    And, and, and the idea here is that, uh, as I said, you know, a- again, to, to have the proper empathy, there are people in the world where it actually is very difficult to be happy, right? You know, they've lost j- you know, they've lost their family or they're in a war zone or they're, you know, going through a very difficult breakup or, you know. Th- there, there could be reasons. Uh, you know, they have chronic pain or some kind of a chronic illness or... You know, you and I have experienced, uh, working with people in those states in our work and, yeah, it becomes difficult to find happiness. It even becomes difficult to find, uh, um, happier, uh, you know, uh, states at that, at that time. Uh, b- but truth is, um, most of the time, for those who choose to blame life for their unhappiness, whatever life would give them, they'll find something to blame. You see, the idea is, as I always try to teach, that is happiness is an, a different, the difference between the events of your life's, uh, you know, the events of your life and your expectations of how life should be. And so interestingly, you go to some of the m- places where the best quality of life exists, you know, where the subjective wellbeing is very high, and you'll still see very high suicide rates. Reason being, you know, when, when, when your government gives you healthcare and gives you unemployment, uh, fare, you know, p- p- payments, and they, they, they'll take care of your every need, somehow, somehow in our, uh, um, always ambitious minds, let's call them, uh, you know, your mind will go like, "Okay, so if the government can do all of this, why is my girlfriend still annoying?" You know?

19. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee4:26

    Mm.

20. MGMo Gawdat4:26

    Like, "Where's, where's my service level agreement? I signed the service level agreement that the world is always going to give me everything I need to find happiness, and if the world fails, then I'll be unhappy." And, and the question is, where's that agreement? Show it to me.

21. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee4:41

    Yeah. I mean, I completely agree with your perspective that happiness is a choice. It's a skill that we can cultivate-

22. MGMo Gawdat4:47

    It's a skill. 100%

23. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee4:49

    ... once we know how to do it.

24. MGMo Gawdat4:51

    Mm-hmm.

25. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee4:52

    And I wonder how much your upbringing in Egypt influences your perspective here. And the reason I ask that is because I was born and brought up in the UK-

26. MGMo Gawdat5:03

    Yeah

27. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee5:04

    ... but my parents were immigrants from India.

28. MGMo Gawdat5:06

    And you can see the difference.

29. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee5:07

    You can see the difference.

30. MGMo Gawdat5:08

    100%. [laughs]

Episode duration: 2:28:20