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Dr Rangan ChatterjeeDr Rangan Chatterjee

Longevity Professor: The Key Factors To Stop Decline & Slow Aging After 40! | Rose Anne Kenny

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Dr. Rangan ChatterjeehostRose Anne Kennyguest
Nov 8, 20232h 7mWatch on YouTube

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Transcript

  1. 0:00 – 8:23

    Top Priorities for Slowing Aging at Different Ages

    1. RC

      One of the central messages in your book is that 80% of our aging biology is within our control. So I thought we'd start with some practical tips, right? A lot of people listen to this show, ranging from 20-year-olds all the way through to 80-year-olds.

    2. RK

      Mm. Okay.

    3. RC

      Right? So if I was gonna say to you, let's say if someone's in midlife, in their 40s or 50s, and you were gonna say one or two things for them to focus on, what would you say?

    4. RK

      I'll give the, my top three, and the first one I'd start with would be friendship, and to culture friendship, how important that is. Maybe we can take a step back. You mentioned there that 80% is in our control, and isn't that wonderful?

    5. RC

      Yeah.

    6. RK

      'Cause everybody assumes it's genes. You know, aging is about your genes, and your j- you're, you are stuck, more or less, at the moment anyway, with whatever genes you've got. But that isn't the case. Genes only contribute to 20% of the aging process. 80% is within our control, so that's fantastic. And then, what are the things that we know are in our control that influence the process, that influence that 80%? And so if, my top three would be, as I said, friendship, having good friendships. Um, it's not about quantity, but it's very much about the quality of relationships, quali- quality of friendships, and we can come back to how that works later on. I, I'm, and I'm sorry to say the next two, because the la... Once I said this on radio in Ireland, and the interviewer said to me, "Oh, my God, not those old chestnuts again."

    7. RC

      [laughs]

    8. RK

      But I have to mention diet, and I have to say exercise, because they are very important, and they are something that certainly definitely makes a difference. And then if I were to include a fourth, I'd say stress. How, you know, s- stress is so bad for us, so anything that we can do to attenuate stress processes or attenuate stress itself is important for-

    9. RC

      Yeah

    10. RK

      ... the aging process.

    11. RC

      Yeah, brilliant. So friendships.

    12. RK

      Mm-hmm.

    13. RC

      Well, let's broaden that out, I guess-

    14. RK

      Mm

    15. RC

      ... to relationships.

    16. RK

      Yeah.

    17. RC

      The food we're eating.

    18. RK

      Yeah.

    19. RC

      How much we're moving our bodies.

    20. RK

      Yeah.

    21. RC

      And how much stress we're being exposed to. We're gonna get into all of those in detail.

    22. RK

      Yeah.

    23. RC

      But as you say, a lot of us who are health-conscious these days have heard some of these messages, right?

    24. RK

      Yes.

    25. RC

      You have been publishing papers for years. You've been treating patients for years. You teach medical students. You've got a lot of experience, and I think everyone comes to the aging conversation at different times in their lives, right? So you mentioned your top three there, but I'm, I'm interested, how would you frame it differently depending on the age of someone who's coming to see you? So for example, if someone is a, I don't know, a 40-year-old female, for example, how would you change that messaging slightly to be super relevant for them?

    26. RK

      Good question. So 40-year-old female, uh, will be coming into menopause, so to be preparing for that, I would say that's the first thing. We can talk a little bit about that. Um, it doesn't change what I'm saying about friendship, but it's sometimes much more difficult, because there are an awful lot of other pressures on someone's life.

    27. RC

      Mm.

    28. RK

      So they don't have the time to be culturing friendships, et- et cetera. So but to use some mechanism for retaining friendship is very important. You know, when you're picking up kids from school, and having to do the housework piece and your work piece, that makes your life much more difficult in the context of diet, in the context of exercise. I can absolutely say that I almost came to a full stop when I was in that period of my life, with my children and with my professional life, et cetera. All of the things [laughs] that I'm going to be talking to you now about, and the, and your audience, and sharing as being important for manipulating the aging process, were almost at a full stop, because I wasn't able to do everything, and I focused on those other things. But I think to, uh d- uh, not to, it's not all or nothing, so at least to try and do some of the-

    29. RC

      Yeah

    30. RK

      ... things we know are beneficial.

  2. 8:23 – 16:34

    The TILDA Longitudinal Study and What Aging Is

    1. RC

      So, um, w- I wanna talk about TILDA. Um, you mentioned it.

    2. RK

      Mm.

    3. RC

      A- and I'll be honest, growing up, my familiarity with that term was to do with-

    4. RK

      Right

    5. RC

      ... a particular make of basmati rice, which we would have at home, [laughs] TILDA basmati rice. I'm sure many people listening will, will resonate with that.

    6. RK

      Yeah, yeah.

    7. RC

      But when you talk about TILDA-

    8. RK

      [laughs]

    9. RC

      ... you're not talking about a rice brand, are you?

    10. RK

      [laughs] I'm talking about the Irish Longitudinal Study on Ageing. That's where the D comes from. There was already the Italian Longitudinal Study on Ageing, so we had to, uh, we had to recreate it. We couldn't use the S from study.

    11. RC

      Let's just understand what that means.

    12. RK

      Yeah.

    13. RC

      Why... You say longitudinal.

    14. RK

      Mm-hmm.

    15. RC

      What does longitudinal mean? And, and I just want a bit of context here. People who've been listening to my show for a while will know very recently I had on Professors, uh, Robert Waldinger and Mark Schulz-

    16. RK

      Yeah

    17. RC

      ... who are the director and associate director of the Harvard Adult Development Study that's been going on now-

    18. RK

      Yeah

    19. RC

      ... I think 85 years-

    20. RK

      Yeah

    21. RC

      ... or more, right? So they're familiar a little bit with that study and some of the learnings from it. So can you explain what your study is? What does longitudinal mean, and how would certain elements of your study compare to what they're doing in Harvard?

    22. RK

      Okay. So longitudinal means generally that you have a cohort of people, and in our case in TILDA, it's a, an Irish population of people aged 50 and older chosen through a randomly selected sample, which means that whatever findings we get, we can generalize to the population. And the same people are studied longitudinally at regular intervals, in our case, every two years. And the study has been running for 16 years now, with a three to four-year pilot run-in, so every two years we go back to the same people. Now, that's what longi- the long- longitudinal bit is. That allows you to understand the process of aging. So you're looking at the same person now for 12, 16 years, as it stands at the moment. You knew what they were like at baseline, and then you can actually look at changes in the components, I call it the tapestry of that individual-

    23. RC

      Mm-hmm

    24. RK

      ... which makes up how they are now. For example, we, we, we measure a number of different factors. Of course, we measure genetics, the epigenetics, all of those new biomarkers of aging, the common things like you get in a blood screen, your kidney function, urea, your, your kidney function, your electrolytes. [laughs] I was gonna say urea and electrolytes.

    25. RC

      [laughs]

    26. RK

      I'm so used to saying that when I'm ordering them. Your kidney function, your electrolytes, your hemoglobin, et cetera. But we also measure social factors-

    27. RC

      Mm

    28. RK

      ... and economic factors and, and they're really important for... to understand who we are biologically. So we measure all of those factors and, for example, at age 50, if we had a man who, who was, had that broad assessment, including a very detailed health assessment, who had a stroke 16 years later, we can go back and see, okay, what were the things about that man compared to others in the study, which were probably the risk factors at that time, which led him to be a victim-

    29. RC

      Oh, yeah

    30. RK

      ... to stroke in 16 years.

  3. 16:34 – 24:50

    Key Numbers to Know: Blood Pressure, Lipids and HbA1c

    1. RC

      So if someone listening to this wants to take action on that, right, to go, "Okay, uh, you've said a few things there about metabolic syndrome-

    2. RK

      Yeah

    3. RC

      ... what can I do now at home?" You know, what would you advise? Would you advise them to measure these things, go and see a healthcare professional, you know, find out if they have it? How, how would you advise people to tackle that?

    4. RK

      So I would definitely say we should all know our blood pressure, and we should know it every single year after the age of 40. Know what your blood pressure is, and know what your seated blood pressure and your standing blood pressure is, because we get, as we get older, we're more likely to get a drop in blood pressure standing, and that actually has to be managed a little bit differently. So know your blood pressure seated and standing every year. Know your lipid profile, and it's not just about c- uh, cholesterol. It is about triglycerides and HDL, LDL ratios, et cetera. So know your lipid profile every year, and know your hemoglobin A1c. Hemoglobin A1c is a very good marker for diabetes, obviously, but pending diabetes and pre-diabetes.

    5. RC

      Yeah.

    6. RK

      Um, and it actually is, um, an indicator of what your glucose has been doing over the last two to three months. So that's why it's such a good marker. It doesn't shift up and down with the food intake, et cetera. So at least those three things we should all know.

    7. RC

      Yeah. So what I like about that, there's a lot of, um, talk about anti-aging now and, and some of the testing that is being spoken about is not widely available to everyone yet, right?

    8. RK

      I agree.

    9. RC

      Whereas the three things you just mentioned, blood pressure- A blood lipid panel and an HbA1c, uh, measurement from your blood is pretty commonly available. Certainly in the UK those things are-

    10. RK

      Yes

    11. RC

      ... freely available on the NHS-

    12. RK

      Yes

    13. RC

      ... right? From the National Health Service.

    14. RK

      Yes.

    15. RC

      So th- they're very accessible things, and so if we just go into those a minute, let's take HbA1c. Okay, two to three-month average m- uh, measurement of our blood sugar.

    16. RK

      Yeah.

    17. RC

      So one of my frustrations with, I guess, the way the practice of medicine has evolved over the years is that it's become very black or white, and much of the time we interpret things in a very black-or-white fashion.

    18. RK

      Mm-hmm.

    19. RC

      It's either normal or it's pre-diabetic or it's diabetic, right? Type 2 diabetes I'm talking about.

    20. RK

      Mm-hmm.

    21. RC

      So, you know, if your HbA1c is 6.5 or above, we say type 2 diabetes. If it's between 6 and 6.5, we say that's pre-diabetes.

    22. RK

      Mm-hmm.

    23. RC

      But if it's 5.9 or 5.8-

    24. RK

      Mm-hmm

    25. RC

      ... or 5.7-

    26. RK

      Mm-hmm

    27. RC

      ... it will often be reported as normal.

    28. RK

      Mm.

    29. RC

      So I'd love you, with all your knowledge, to expand on what do you like to see with an HbA1c? You know, of course, you want it normal, but are you of the school of thought where lower is better?

    30. RK

      So when I started off as a junior doctor with respect to blood pressure, we were treating blood pressure, systolic pressure, if it was more than 160.

  4. 24:50 – 30:12

    Why Aging Starts in Your 20s: The Dunedin Study and Aging as a Disease

    1. RC

      But stereotypically, if there was a 20-year-old sitting in front of you saying, "Oh, aging, you know, that's miles away in the future, right? Why do I need to be bothered about that?" Or what would you say to a 20-year-old that might make a difference in terms of what they do?

    2. RK

      So I would sit them down-

    3. RC

      [laughs]

    4. RK

      ... and I'd show them a great gla- graph from the Dunedin study, which I'll share with you now. So the Dunedin is a different model longitudinal study to ours. It's 1,000 babies born in the same year, studied longitudinally, and they're now in their 50s. Um, and in the Dunedin study, they looked at their whole cohort of 1,000 when they were all aged 38, and at this stage of the study, they had the ability to measure their biological aging, their epigenetic clocks. Okay? So they were able to actually look at their biological clock, and of course everybody was the same age, had the same chronological clock, in other words, number of candles on their birthday cake. And remarkably, they showed that some people aged 38 were behaving biologically like 28-year-olds. But some aged 38 were behaving biologically like 48-year-olds, a 20-year distribution in their biological aging, although they were all the same chronological age. That's an amazing study.

    5. RC

      And so the practical take-home for someone in their 20s is what?

    6. RK

      So the practical take-home is this, this process starts really early on. Now, you know, the, the trite thing to say, it probably [laughs] starts in the womb, but for an individual, that doesn't help. But the process does start, uh, in your 20s, and you can do damage in your 20s. When they looked back on the 38-year-olds who had the almost 50-year-old biological aging through the clocks, the factors which drove that accelerated aging were adverse childhood events.

    7. RC

      Mm.

    8. RK

      You know, traumatic experiences in childhood, depression in childhood, or depression in a household, divorce in a household or, or bad behaviors early on in the, in lives like smoking and alcohol in, in, in the participants' lives.

    9. RC

      I- if we just talk about these ACEs for a minute, these adverse-

    10. RK

      Mm

    11. RC

      ... childhood experiences, this is something that I've covered on this show many times through the lens of trauma-

    12. RK

      Mm

    13. RC

      ... with people like Dr. Gabor Maté, Dr. Bessel van der Kolk, recently with a, a chap called Dr. Russell Kennedy on anxiety, and we're seeing very clearly for many years now, data on adverse childhood experiences, on how, you know, difficult childhoods, trauma, divorces-

    14. RK

      Mm

    15. RC

      ... um, you know, abuse.

    16. RK

      Mm.

    17. RC

      The impacts of those things play out in your adult risk of disease, illness, autoimmune disease-

    18. RK

      Yeah

    19. RC

      ... all kinds of things, right?

    20. RK

      Yeah.

    21. RC

      But you're saying it also plays out these emotional factors-

    22. RK

      Yes

    23. RC

      ... or what we consider emotional factors, that also plays out in terms of how quickly we're aging.

    24. RK

      Well, you see, because how quickly you're aging is what's driving those diseases later on in life.

    25. RC

      Mm.

    26. RK

      That's my point. The aging process, all it is, is the precursor to having one of those diseases, and the pace of that aging process, i- i- all that is, is, means is that you'll have one of those illnesses earlier. That's what aging is.

    27. RC

      Professor David Sinclair, who I spoke to maybe two or three years ago on this podcast, he makes the case in his book that we should consider aging a disease. What's your perspective on that?

    28. RK

      Well, I, I, I don't entirely agree with that, although I can see that there's some overlap in concepts. Um, there isn't a diagnosis for aging-

    29. RC

      Yeah

    30. RK

      ... as such. Um, it, it's a very multifactorial process. Um, it's something that we all will experience in one way or another. It doesn't necessarily lead to a disease outcome that we recognize. Um, so there are some of the reasons that I wouldn't-

  5. 30:12 – 36:44

    Quality of Life, Longevity Trends and Anti-Aging Philosophy

    1. RC

      Are we missing something about the human experience? Are we trying to defy something-

    2. RK

      Mm

    3. RC

      ... that is fundamentally a part of humanity? You know, we're, we're born, we live for a separate time, and then we die. I know you know all the biology and the, the blood markers, and you've done all the science of aging, but from a philosophical point of view, what's your perspective on that?

    4. RK

      That's a... It's a great question. First of all, factually, quality of life gets better [laughs] as we get older. That's the first thing to say, and this has been shown by many, many studies. I- in- in our own study in, in TILDA, um, aged 50 upwards, quality of life continued to improve year on year until late 70s, and the factor which actually impacted then on positive quality of life was physical ill health. That was the biggest factor-

    5. RC

      Mm

    6. RK

      ... that impacted on quality of life.

    7. RC

      Information is not enough to make change in your life. You have to take action. So to help you take action after watching this video, I've created a free nutrition guide for you. This contains the five most important practices I've seen in over two decades of seeing patients. They work for you no matter what your dietary preference. There's a step-by-step action plan to help you implement those changes in your life. If you wanna receive that free guide right now, just click on the link in the description box below.

    8. RK

      But the, the m- measures that we were using for quality of life, very good tool, didn't get to the same level in the 80-year-olds as they... it was in 50 until people's... was... were, were 84. So in other words, it went up, and it slowly came down, and it was only at age 84 that your quality of life was the same at 50.

    9. RC

      So hold on.

    10. RK

      So it gets better.

    11. RC

      So, so once you've hit 50, on average-

    12. RK

      It gets better

    13. RC

      ... your quality of life gets better-

    14. RK

      Yes

    15. RC

      ... and doesn't get down to that level until you're 84.

    16. RK

      Absolutely.

    17. RC

      So you have 34 years of good times.

    18. RK

      Maybe longer-

    19. RC

      Maybe longer

    20. RK

      ... because the only factors that were influencing beneficial quality of life, on- this is on average now, this is for at a population level, were physical disability, so not being able to do what you were previously able to do because of a- arthritis or another physical illness.

    21. RC

      So is that the point for you? I think that's the point from your book, is, is not necessarily about trying to live to 150-

    22. RK

      No

    23. RC

      ... right?

    24. RK

      Yeah.

    25. RC

      The, the message I get from your work is that it's just about how do you make sure you've got that quality of life until you do drop down dead?

    26. RK

      Yes. Yes. Yeah. And, and living independently and having a good quality of life. They, they should be our two metrics, um, for, for happy lifespan.

    27. RC

      So, so on that then, um, what are some of the myths that are currently being propagated, would you say, around aging? There's all kinds of talk about living to 150 or 120, 130. You know-

    28. RK

      Yeah

    29. RC

      ... what, what's your ta- Well, first of all, are there any myths out there that you'd like to share a different perspective on? And I guess related to that, how old do you think it is possible for a human to live in good health?

    30. RK

      Well, well, for the latter question, I would answer to Jeanne Calment, who I wrote about in the book, we know therefore 126 is feasible, right?

  6. 36:44 – 43:12

    Jeanne Calment, Inequality and Free Ways to Age Well

    1. RC

      Let's just contrast then, um, the lady, I think, Jeanne Louise Calment-

    2. RK

      Mm

    3. RC

      ... who you wrote about in the book, the French lady-

    4. RK

      Yeah

    5. RC

      ... who went past 120.

    6. RK

      Yeah.

    7. RC

      You, you've written about her in quite a bit of detail.

    8. RK

      Yes.

    9. RC

      Um, which is, it was just so fascinating reading about her story.

    10. RK

      She had a, a privileged life. Um, and probably all of the components that we have got control of with respect to the aging process, she illustrated throughout her life. That's what I liked about her life. Um, very positive attitude.

    11. RC

      Yeah. I wr- I wrote this down. Um, you p- you put in... I mean, it's, uh, as I say, I love your book. I think it's jam-packed full of really practical information. Um, at the time of writing, the record-holder for longevity for the human species at 122 years and-

    12. RK

      Oh, yes

    13. RC

      ... 164 days is a French woman, Jeanne Louise Calment. And, you know, there's many paragraphs on her, but this one I, I, I wrote down, and I think this really speaks to what we're talking about with socioeconomic-

    14. RK

      Yeah

    15. RC

      ... status, which is, "Jeanne never had to work."

    16. RK

      Mm-hmm.

    17. RC

      "She employed servants and led a leisurely lifestyle within upper society, pursuing hobbies such as fencing, cycling, tennis, swimming, roller skating, playing the piano, and making music with friends. In the summer with her husband, she would mountaineer. She enjoyed an idyllic, relatively stress-free-

    18. RK

      Mm

    19. RC

      ... and fun-filled life." Now, you can interpret that two ways. You can either interpret that and go, "Okay, wow, that has shown us what is possible," and I can see-

    20. RK

      Mm

    21. RC

      ... that the various elements that you write about in your book, a lot of them are, you know, are there within her story. Or that can be incredibly off-putting to people and go, "Yeah, all right, for her. You know, my life is completely different to that. No wonder-

    22. RK

      Mm

    23. RC

      ... I'm struggling."

    24. RK

      Mm.

    25. RC

      So, so how do you make sense of that?

    26. RK

      Well, well, I, well, I mean, you're a doctor. I'm a doctor. You know, you sit down in front of somebody, you talk to them about ways of alleviating stress, but you know that they're finding it hard to make ends meet.

    27. RC

      Yeah.

    28. RK

      You know, I mean, and, and it's, it's, it's a terrible problem. Um, it, it's, uh, so you've just exemplified [laughs] that issue. I struggle with that. I mean, uh, y- I know what the facts are. I know what works at a biological level. So now we're going into how m- how important this is as, at a sociological level, at a societal level. How can we change society to, to enable all of the things that we know will work? And frankly, everything we're, we're talking about here that individuals can modify, they don't cost money, by and large, but they, you need not to be stressed about how to feed the kids-

    29. RC

      Mm

    30. RK

      ... throughout the week at the same time. So one of the things that we've, we've, uh, learned from our research certainly is education, education, education. That education drives better, um, quality of life, less stress, and, um, more, higher income in later life if, if, if you can achieve that-

  7. 43:12 – 53:24

    Attitude, Ageism and the Toxic Effects of Isolation

    1. RC

      I wanna talk about attitudes.

    2. RK

      Yeah.

    3. RC

      Our attitude towards life.

    4. RK

      Mm.

    5. RC

      Because if I continue what you wrote about, uh, Jeanne Louise Calment, you, you, you write that she did actually move into a nursing home, I think it was after a fall-

    6. RK

      Yeah

    7. RC

      ... aged 110.

    8. RK

      Yeah.

    9. RC

      But again, some really interesting things there. Even though she was in a nursing home, Calment initially followed a rigorous daily routine. She was woken at 6:45 AM, started the day with a long prayer at her window. She thanked God for being alive and for the beautiful day that was starting, underscoring her positive attitudes-

    10. RK

      Mm-hmm

    11. RC

      ... and outlook. Then she sits on her armchair and does gymnastics wearing her stereo headset, right? So this is fascinating. I've got this wonderful image-

    12. RK

      [laughs] Yeah

    13. RC

      ... of this 110-year-old lady basically practicing gratitude every morning.

    14. RK

      Yeah.

    15. RC

      Right? And, you know, we've touched on gratitude several times on this podcast over the years. There's really good research on gratitude. It seems as though she naturally had this positive attitude. From what you know, from what you've studied, how important is attitude to the aging process?

    16. RK

      Hugely important. That's what I would say. Probably, you know, the most im- important thing that... Now, now it's hard to change your attitude. I mean, attitude is very much about being an optimist or a pessimist, you know? Um, but, but knowing it's important, people might be able to put more time and effort into creating a positive attitude or being positive or less negative about things. Um, we, we talk about resilience in, in, in the science of aging and what makes some people resilient and others not, and how you perceive yourself aging and your attitude towards your own aging and towards others is a major factor. Um, again, in the TILDA study, we have shown, we've measured perceptions of aging or aging attitudes at baseline and at, and obviously follow-up, and people who saw themselves as 20 years younger than their age, as I do, um, actually were fit- physically fitter and mentally, cognitively better, independent of all of the other factors we were able to adjust for 10 years hence.

    17. RC

      So, so the, so-

    18. RK

      So it matters

    19. RC

      ... so the, the, the phrase, "You are as young as you feel," actually has scientific validity.

    20. RK

      Yes, it's biologically embedded. [laughs]

    21. RC

      I mean, that is-

    22. RK

      Absolutely. Yeah

    23. RC

      ... it's just fascinating that, you know, I, I think a lot about, I guess, what might be considered the more softer aspects of health, right? Attitude, our perception-

    24. RK

      Yeah

    25. RC

      ... these kind of things, but-

    26. RK

      Mm

    27. RC

      ... but really they're not, they're not so soft when you start studying them. [laughs]

    28. RK

      No.

    29. RC

      The- there's actually hard data on them. I spoke a few months ago with someone called Professor Anise Mukerji. Um, she's, you know, very, very experienced consultant endocrinologist, a women's hormone expert, and in the conversation, which was all about women's hormones and the menopause, I shared with her some research that I came across showing that in societies where they perceive aging as a good thing, they associate it-

    30. RK

      Yeah

  8. 53:24 – 1:03:56

    Roseto and the Blue Zones: The Power of Community

    1. RC

      Talking about community, um, in, in your book you wrote in detail, was it Rosetta?

    2. RK

      Rosetta, yeah.

    3. RC

      And, and it was, it was truly fascinating, so I wonder if you could talk us through Rosetta-

    4. RK

      Yeah

    5. RC

      ... and what does that teach us about the power of community and social relationships?

    6. RK

      This is a great story, and it was probably the start of the link between social sciences and health. Um, so Rosetta was a town in, a small town in northern Italy, and in the 1800s, they, they needed to emigrate. There wasn't any employment. So they emigrated to a location in the States, in Pennsylvania in the States. They called it Rosetta, the town in the States.

    7. RC

      Wow.

    8. RK

      And they, um, they replicated an awful lot of their lifestyles in, in Italy in terms of the, the infrastructure, the way the town was designed, et cetera. And then more and more from Rosetta, Italy, um, emigrated to Rosetta in the USA. And a scientist called Steven Woolf, he wasn't a scientist, he was actually a gastroenterologist, but he got interested in epidemiology, and he was very interested in the brain-gut response, uh, and, and interaction and network. So he had a holiday home near it, um, and he gave talks to towns and villages nearby, and one night he was speaking in one of the towns, and a GP came up to him, a general practitioner, and said, "You know, you're talking about," what was the big killer at the time, cardiovascular disease, um, in men in their m- mid-40s, 50s in the USA. He said, "I'm, I'm working in this town. It's one of two or three towns I work in nearby, and I'm seeing... I'm not seeing that. I'm seeing people living well into their 65s and beyond." This is in the 1900s, 1930s and '40s. Um, and, and he said, "I'm definitely seeing something different there than the other towns I'm working in nearby." So Steven Woolf didn't just take that as a, you know. He went- With medical students the next summer, they took over the town hall, and they did all of the measures we know lead to longevity, 'cause in the interim he'd checked their, their death rate books and found that, yes, it was true. They seemed to be living longer in Roseto, and he found no suicides, et cetera. So he, they went and they s- installed themselves in the town hall and started doing blood pressure. They took blood tests for blood glucose at the time, uh, et cetera, and they couldn't find anything. Then they looked at diet, and they couldn't find anything. And I'm sorry to say, but they actually found that they were eating, [laughs] you know, quite, quite luscious pizzas regularly.

    9. RC

      Mm-hmm.

    10. RK

      And he, he looked at everything he could think of. Smoking wasn't more common, exercise, there wasn't any difference in all the factors we're talking about. And he was sitting one morning in the town square in Roseto on a Sunday, uh, outside the church, and the next thing, the church doors opened and everybody piled out of church.

    11. RC

      Mm.

    12. RK

      But they didn't move from there. They stayed outside the church, and for an hour or two afterwards they were still there chatting.

    13. RC

      Mm-hmm.

    14. RK

      Kids running around, mixing. And he realized that the secret of longevity in Roseto was Roseto itself.

    15. RC

      Yeah.

    16. RK

      And then he started to explore their, their social engagement, their social networks, their social infrastructure. Three generations living in one household. For, for a to- a town of 2,000, um, civilians at the time, there were 22 different civic societies. [laughs]

    17. RC

      Wow.

    18. RK

      People were always doing something. So that was... He, then he, he got other researchers from his university involved who were interested in social scientists, and they started this whole research field, which is so huge now, of how important sociology is in determining our health.

    19. RC

      It's, it's just fascinating and, and particularly what you said, their diets probably weren't that good because of course we're trying to promote healthy lifestyles, but what, what does that mean? You know, if you could live by yourself and hit all your exercise targets, and hit a clean, organic, no sugar diet, sleep eight hours a night, right? But you didn't have community, you didn't have connections. You know, who would be better off? And I'm inclined more and more-

    20. RK

      Mm

    21. RC

      ... to think that social connections-

    22. RK

      Mm

    23. RC

      ... are right at the top of the tree.

    24. RK

      I, I, I actually, I believe that.

    25. RC

      R- yeah.

    26. RK

      That's why I started when I made my list at the beginning. You asked me what were the top few things and I said friendship. You know, that's social connection, that's friendship, that's engagement. And we know ourselves, if you've had a good night out, in my case, with the girls, with lots of laughter, um, and you know, there'll be a couple of drinks involved, potentially, very likely. Um, the next day you feel so good.

    27. RC

      Yeah.

    28. RK

      And it's been such a good experience. So we know this. It's intuitive. And yet we need to make an effort, particularly since COVID, to build that now back into our daily routine.

    29. RC

      Yeah.

    30. RK

      And you come back to your yoga. That's why it's so much better to go to the yoga class and not do yoga on YouTube on your own all of the time.

  9. 1:03:56 – 1:16:03

    Building Movement Into Daily Life, Sarcopenia and Strength

    1. RC

      But if we talk about, you know, exercise for a minute, clearly physical activity is important.

    2. RK

      Mm-hmm.

    3. RC

      Right? And, um, right at the start of this conversation when I asked you if someone was in their 70s, what would you say to them if they wanted to say, "Professor Kenny-

    4. RK

      Yeah

    5. RC

      ... how can I slow down aging? How can I make sure I'm as well as I can be when I'm 80 or 90?" One of the things you said was to do more, move more.

    6. RK

      Yes.

    7. RC

      And, and I know I've heard you talk about that before, and it's something I've become aware of now. I'm in my mid-40s-

    8. RK

      Yeah

    9. RC

      ... but I'm realizing that actually movement-

    10. RK

      Yeah

    11. RC

      ... I was chatting to people at this family do at the weekend. [laughs] I was saying, one thing I'm realizing, you just cannot get away with not moving. Once you stop moving, it goes downhill very rapidly.

    12. RK

      Yes.

    13. RC

      And as you get older, you gotta move more.

    14. RK

      Yeah.

    15. RC

      And so I'm massively increasing now how much I move. And a lot of this is just, it's not anything flash, it's just walking more.

    16. RK

      Mm.

    17. RC

      Just walking an hour a day, and then trying to... You know, just trying to build that in more and more. But what I find fascinating, particularly as aging is being spoken about and sold to a lot of us in the health space, it's a lot about tracking and hitting various metrics, and this will be good for your strength, this will be good for your heart, this will be good for cardio. And what you see in the blue zones is that no one's measuring a damn thing.

    18. RK

      No.

    19. RC

      Right? These guys aren't thinking about, "Oh, I need to get my resistance in. I need to get my cardio in." What's your perspective on that? 'Cause that's fascinating. That's really, really interesting to me.

    20. RK

      No, I don't do any tracking or anything, 'cause actually, frankly, it would stress me. Um, uh, I, I, I, I think with respect to the blue zones, it was built into their natural day. So for us, how would we do that? Yes, go for a walk, but also when you've to nip down to the shop for groceries, give yourself the extra 10 or 15 minutes to walk down to-

    21. RC

      Yeah

    22. RK

      ... the shop for, or get on your bike. I cycle to work all of the time because some days that's my only way of getting any activity into my day. Um, and, and that is very doable, you know, to... There are other op- o- opportunities. The other thing about the blue zones is they did them in nature.

    23. RC

      Mm-hmm.

    24. RK

      So there was a lot of, of nature, the sea obviously, but also a, a, a green nature. And I think we underestimate how good nature feels.

    25. RC

      Yeah. There's also, though, purpose to their movement.

    26. RK

      Mm.

    27. RC

      Right? And-

    28. RK

      Mm

    29. RC

      ... again, I think really trying to go deeper below physical activity. You know, as you said at the start, right, you were in an Irish television interview talking about diet and exercise-

    30. RK

      [laughs]

  10. 1:16:03 – 1:25:45

    How Kenny's Habits Changed and the 8-Week Epigenetic Trial

    1. RC

      Okay. So what in your behaviors has changed on the back of your research?

    2. RK

      Right. Now, [laughs] the re-

    3. RC

      If anything

    4. RK

      ... the reveal moment. Oh, it has. It has. Um, definitely my diet has changed. I've d-

    5. RC

      Really?

    6. RK

      Oh, yes. I'm, I, I, I, absolutely. Like, I wouldn't dream of having a bar of chocolate now. [laughs] I mean, or anything. I try, really try hard not to have processed foods. Now, I will. Um, I clearly have pr- processed foods, so I can't help. But, but, but generally speaking, my diet has changed an awful lot. I don't eat nearly as much red meat. I eat much more fish and much more vegetables, and eat nuts and seeds, et cetera. Whereas I wouldn't have done that before. So diet, definitely.

    7. RC

      We'll be back to the conversation in just a moment. Now, many of us struggle to find time to eat all of these incredible whole foods. That's why I'm a big fan of good quality whole food supplements, like this one, that's been in my own life for over three years now. It contains over 75 whole food source ingredients, vitamins, minerals, pre and probiotics, and can help us support our energy, focus, digestion, and our immune system. AG1 are giving my audience a fantastic offer, one year supply of vitamin D and five free travel packs with your first order. You can see all details at drinkag1.com/livemore, or just click on the link below. And now, back to the conversation.

    8. RK

      I've reached out to friends. I was working really hard focusing on my family, um, and I hadn't been engaging as much at all, and I've reached out to groups of people that I went to school with, that I went to college with, um, and we're now all part of different WhatsApp groups. I'm on four different Wat- WhatsApp groups from my past. Um-

    9. RC

      Is that still good, WhatsApp groups?

    10. RK

      It's, it's, it's brilliant because now we're meeting up regularly.

    11. RC

      Yeah.

    12. RK

      So one group meets once a month. Another group meets twice a year, whatever. But we're meeting up, and it's fantastic. And the thing about meeting up at this stage in your life is, you know, there's no baggage. You have nothing to lose.

    13. RC

      [laughs]

    14. RK

      You're not, you know, it doesn't matter who you are or what you are. You knew this person who, uh, in a time gone by, you shared an awful lot together.

    15. RC

      Yeah.

    16. RK

      That's so different from anything you'll engage with with somebody new now, and it's very precious and very rich. It's a fantastic experience. We've a great laugh. There's a lot of sharing, and if somebody in the group isn't well or whatever, they share that, and we bolster them in that. So that's been, that's been something different. I don't drink as much. So I'm-

    17. RC

      We're talking about alcohol, right?

    18. RK

      Alcohol. So I try not to have... I mean, I don't drink at all at the moment, and I have very long periods when I won't drink at all. And then-

    19. RC

      And how do you find that? You live in Dublin, right?

    20. RK

      Yes.

    21. RC

      How do you find that socially?

    22. RK

      Much more socially acceptable now than it used to be. When I was going to college or as a young doctor, we-

    23. RC

      Yeah

    24. RK

      ... worked hard, and we played hard. That was what we did. Um, that is, I find it socially much more acceptable, particularly with the younger people, um, and younger students and doctors that I'm engaging with. The, the drinking culture is changing, definitely. Now, they may be using other substances, but, but there's certainly, I think, it's more acceptable now for people not to drink.

    25. RC

      Well, it was interesting when earlier on [laughs] when, in, in our conversation, you mentioned, you know, what you do in your 20s, um, really can make a difference-

    26. RK

      Yeah. I know

    27. RC

      ... in terms of how you age. And I, I was thinking back-

    28. RK

      I know

    29. RC

      ... to my days in Edinburgh as a medical student, thinking-

    30. RK

      I know, I know

  11. 1:25:45 – 1:33:42

    Biological Age, Stereotyping and Slow Medicine

    1. RC

      Rose Anne, one of the things I really, really liked in your book was in the introduction- I'm just gonna read it to you because I think it is-

    2. RK

      Mm-hmm

    3. RC

      ... so, so key. "I never ask a patient their age, but rather base decision-making on an assessment of a person's biological age derived from a traditional physical examination and history. No two 83-year-olds are the same. One can run a marathon, and the other is a frail nursing home resident. So making a clinical treatment judgment is very different for each and not related merely to a number."

    4. RK

      Yeah.

    5. RC

      Now, I think this, I think, sews together quite a few things that we've been talking about today. How much our perception of aging influences how we age, how quickly we age, but also if I think about as two doctors sitting here-

    6. RK

      Yeah

    7. RC

      ... having a conversation, we can stereotype patients. You know, how do you, how do, how do we report... How do we present case histories, right, to our colleagues?

    8. RK

      Mm.

    9. RC

      Okay, 58-year-old male.

    10. RK

      [laughs] Yeah.

    11. RC

      Um, you know-

    12. RK

      Yeah

    13. RC

      ... two children.

    14. RK

      Yeah.

    15. RC

      Works as an accountant.

    16. RK

      Yeah.

    17. RC

      You know, w- stereotypes, stereotypes-

    18. RK

      Yeah

    19. RC

      ... literally start to influence how our colleagues are going to hear that story, right? And I think it's really good for all of us to be aware of our biases, right? Because it's, it's like time, right? This is getting quite philosophical now, but it's, it's like time, right? One hour of time, yes, we can measure it by a clock. But one hour of watching paint dry and one hour of having, you know, a beautiful conversation with you, who's flown over from Dublin to have this conversation with me in my studio, is a completely different experience.

    20. RK

      Mm.

    21. RC

      It's the same one hour, but you can't really compare those two one hours because the experience is so different. And in the same way, this whole thing about asking people how old they are.

    22. RK

      Mm.

    23. RC

      Like, more and more, I think it's highly problematic-

    24. RK

      Yeah

    25. RC

      ... because we're, we're conditioning what we think they should be doing or how much they can do simply from an age. And we all know people in our lives of the same age who are, you know, wildly different, don't we?

    26. RK

      Yeah. Um, that, uh, your analogy was fantastic there. Um, uh, and we're, we're... Well, I, I can only speak to my own profession as yours, medicine. We're... I think we're really bad at stereotyping.

    27. RC

      Yeah.

    28. RK

      Um, and, and, and then that's coupled with how we deal with somebody, how we manage their condition, et cetera, and their... Or how we view their prognosis.

    29. RC

      Yeah.

    30. RK

      Um, uh, I... Now, I, I don't have solutions for that.

  12. 1:33:42 – 1:41:50

    Sex, Intimacy and Aging

    1. RC

      On the subject of, you know, continuing what we just said about the kind of things patients open up about when they're talking to their doctor-

    2. RK

      Yes

    3. RC

      ... if the environment is right-

    4. RK

      Yes

    5. RC

      ... if the clinician is being attentive, for example, you've written an entire chapter on sex and intimacy-

    6. RK

      Mm-hmm

    7. RC

      ... with respect to aging. Now, this is a topic that is not often spoken about. It's a little bit taboo for many people to talk about this. So my first question is-

    8. RK

      Mm-hmm

    9. RC

      ... were you nervous when writing it? Why, I guess, did you think it was so important to put this chapter in?

    10. RK

      So I wasn't nervous in writing it, because I've had a bit of a journey, as it were, in, with respect to this topic, and the person who opened my eyes to this is a girl called Stacy Lando, who's a professor of gynecology and aging in Chicago, and she is passionate about this area, and started writing, uh, maybe 22 decades ago, um, in, uh, with respect to sexual activity and aging. Um, so I'd followed her and her work for some period of time, and have become very friendly with her, actually. Um, and I, I've been really interested in the area, and it's... What, what fascinates me about it is it's almost like it's, it's invisible in society. It's not discussed. And when I became enthusiastic about it at the dinner table, 'cause we always made an effort when the boys were in school to kind of get together and we al- had an evening meal together, I would say, "Oh, gosh, w- " start talking about something I'd learned about sexuality and aging, and they went, "Right, Mom, we're gone now. We've eaten. Thank you. We're leaving the table. I don't want any more. No more." Like, it just, I think younger generations find it im- almost impossible to conceive that there would be sexual activity between, you know, older persons. In the TILDA study, 70% of couples are still sexually active, and our mean age now is 68, but that's the data for, for the, from the first wave of the study. So it's, it's, it's common. Um, we... It's becoming more discussed. It's be- we're becoming more aware of it at a societal level. We as doctors don't talk to patients enough about it. We don't ask patients, "Would you like to discuss sexual activity on a regular basis?" S- People, I think, find it hard to discuss it on an in- an individual level. So I had no problem writing about it at all, because I'm very enthusiastic about it and I think it's something that we need to be discussing more. And there are issues with it as people get older. Um, erectile dysfunction is not uncommon. Now, erectile dysfunction can occur at any age, and probably one in three, as you know from your general practice, men have experienced it at some stage or other, and there's lots and lots of reasons f- for it. But there are reasons which need to be investigated, um, even if it's intermittent, and it can be indicative of underlying atherosclerosis. That's thickening of vessels, blood vessels in, in, in older adults. When I say older, people 50 and above. And that needs to be investigated early. Uh, you know that iceberg we talked about? That's the process happening down here below the threshold of the iceberg. It can be, uh, managed early.

    11. RC

      Yeah. I, I think that's a, a very important take home for people that we perhaps haven't spoken about enough on this podcast, which maybe speaks to exactly what you're talking about, about how taboo this topic is. But I think a lot of people, women and men, don't realize that er- erectile dysfunction could be-

    12. RK

      Yeah

    13. RC

      ... an early warning sign that you already have thinning of the blood vessels in your heart.

    14. RK

      Yes. Yeah.

    15. RC

      Like, the blood vessels exist everywhere.

    16. RK

      Yes.

    17. RC

      You know, if there's a problem-

    18. RK

      Yes

    19. RC

      ... with your erections-

    20. RK

      Yeah

    21. RC

      ... that could be a problem in your heart. So if you're having it, you, you really should get that checked out, particularly if you're-

    22. RK

      100%. Yeah, that's-

    23. RC

      ... 40s, 50s, 60s.

    24. RK

      So that's very important to, to be aware of. That can be an indicator also of un- of, of, of early stage diabetes, et cetera, et cetera.

    25. RC

      Mm-hmm.

    26. RK

      So it needs to be … And then for women, vaginal dryness is a huge issue. So some of the reasons why older people don't take part as frequently in sexual activity is because it's painful or uncomfortable, particularly for women. Now, that can be dealt with. So dry mucosal surfaces, we know about dry eyes, dry mouth postmenopausally, but dry vagina, dry vulva is also not uncommon, and it can be dealt with with hor- hormone replacement therapy, local hormone therapy, and gels. But there's something that we should be discussing with our patients, and I really think as doctors, for those age groups, we should just ask about it, "Have you any problem with...?" And if there's a problem, that'll open up the discussion.

    27. RC

      So how does this relate to aging, right? So let's say a couple want to be intimate-

    28. RK

      Mm

    29. RC

      ... and have sex as they're older. Okay, so that's a desire, but in terms of the biology of aging, how does sex and intimacy play, play a role?

    30. RK

      Oh, well, this is really interesting because actually, um, it probably decelerates the aging process. It's-

  13. 1:41:50 – 1:55:38

    Sleep, Chronotypes and Blue Light

    1. RC

      Let's talk about sleep. Uh, what is the relationship between sleep and aging? And I, I've gotta say, one of the things I really, really enjoyed reading about was these four sleep chronotypes.

    2. RK

      Oh, yeah. [laughs] Yes. Uh, I reckon I'm a lion. What do you think you are?

    3. RC

      I'm definitely a lion.

    4. RK

      Okay. Yeah. [laughs]

    5. RC

      From, from, from the description-

    6. RK

      Yeah, yeah

    7. RC

      ... in your book, I'm a lion. Um, in fact, let... Shall we... Do, do you wanna go through those?

    8. RK

      I go through them. So there are four types. There are dolphins, lions, bears, and wolves. Um, and the whole point about this is what, what's our chronotype? Our chronotype is almost our personality type coupled with our 24-hour circadian rhythm.

    9. RC

      Okay.

    10. RK

      Now, all of our cells have a 24-hour circadian rhythm, and they're all governed by a central clock in the brain called the suprachiasmic nucleus.

    11. RC

      Mm-hmm.

    12. RK

      SCN. Um, and it basically, every single thing about us is governed by that. Um, so that at nighttime when it's dark, different rhythms are turned off and different rhythms are turned on, and then in the daytime, different rhythm- rhythms turned off and on. That's what's important. Now, our chronotypes, which are our sort of personality types coupled with our rhythm, are roughly divided into four groups. There's the dolphins, the lions, the bears, and the wolves. Dolphins struggle to fall asleep, sleep approximately six hours, wake up unrefreshed, may experience anxiety, irritability. They're perfectionists. Lions, medium sleep drive, wake up early, lots of energy, little energy at bedtime. I'm almost supine after 9:00 in the evening.

    13. RC

      Yeah, me too.

    14. RK

      I'm useless. Optimistic, overachievers, go-getters.

    15. RC

      Yeah.

    16. RK

      Health-conscious. [laughs] Eat well, take exercise, and they're leaders, right?

    17. RC

      Yeah, I definitely-

    18. RK

      Well, maybe we're choosing... [laughs] Maybe we're... Anyway.

    19. RC

      Maybe we like to think of ourselves in this way, but I, I, I think-

    20. RK

      No, I'm pretty much a lion

    21. RC

      ... I think I'm a lion.

    22. RK

      Yeah. And then bears are deep sleep at night, rise with the sun, strive to be healthy, team players, hardworking, easy to talk to, and they've good people skills. And then the wolves, I'm married to a wolf- Um, wake up in a haze, groggy in the morning, I recognize that. Energy in the evening, so he's much better in the evenings. Tend to miss breakfast, come alive after dark, creative, pessimistic, moody, comfortable alone. And they're, they're very often the, the, the chronotype which is actually aligned with great creativity. Um, and they're also most likely to be addicted [laughs] than o- other sorts of chronotypes. And by that we mean to n- my husband is not, by the way. But by that we mean to alcohol and drugs or, or gambling, uh, behaviors. They're very often wolves in their chronotype. They're just fun chronotypes.

    23. RC

      They are fun

    24. RK

      They've been shown to be scientifically more or less aligned, um, um, to-

    25. RC

      And what, what benefit is there for us knowing what we are?

    26. RK

      So the point is that all of our society is orientated towards the dolphin, the lion, and the bear. But the poor old wolf finds it really difficult, 'cause they come to life later on in the afternoon and the evening, and about one in five of us, 20%, are, are wolves, to, to comply with the timetable that society sets, i.e., be in school at 8:00 or 9:00 in the morning, you know, come home at 4:00, et cetera, go to bed early, get up early in the morning. They struggle with that. That's the first thing. The second thing is our chronotypes are very closely aligned to f- sleep habits, as you can see from the description. Also to food intake. So, um, it's a, i- it, it's important that people who have the latter chronotype we described, the wolves, are aware that they're more likely to get health, negative health outcomes from negative lifestyle behaviors. And I'm sorry if that sounds miserable, but it's just that they're more likely to overeat-

    27. RC

      Mm

    28. RK

      ... or maybe over-drink. Um, and, and that's part of their struggle with this imposed clock which isn't their natural clock. Um, now, now you can turn that around, and that's the good news, um, by bit by bit bringing the, um, clock that you are comfortable with as a wolf into maybe the bear or lion clock. And d- by doing that, to do that, by going to bed, uh, i- i- consecutive nights 15 minutes earlier. But you have to stick to it. You have to be very rigid with yourself and stick to that until you kind of get more into a natural clock. And that does reset some of the-

    29. RC

      Yeah

    30. RK

      ... neurohumor we're going to come onto again, changes that are very closely aligned with the circadian rhythm.

  14. 1:55:38 – 2:03:11

    Sleep Biology, Practical Sleep Tips and Reassurance

    1. RC

      When we talk about the biology of aging and slowing it down, what exactly does sleep do?

    2. RK

      Sleep is very important. I'm tentative about saying this, because if people are poor sleepers and you emphasize how important sleep is, y- you know, one, one thing you don't want to do is, is make people more anxious about the fact that they're not sleeping, so when we're talking about this, we'll t- also talk about solutions, hopefully, that might help people. Sleep is very important. Seven to nine hours sleep is what is recommended, um, as we get older. Now, now our, our, our- Clocks, our biological clocks, not our biological clocks, our chronotropic clocks change as we get older, so we don't sleep as much with age. Um, so that might be an issue. Um, but sleep is the time when our bodies get a chance to get rid of all of the toxins. It's a time when our brain gets a chance to consolidate the memories we've learned during the day, and to, um, store them in long-term memory. It's, it's a recharging period. It was, it was, was thought that our brains were dormant or-

    3. RC

      Mm-hmm

    4. RK

      ... almost dead [laughs] during sleep, but then once we had EEG, we realized that actually it's the most active period for our brains in the 24-hour cycle. It's working really hard-

    5. RC

      Wow

    6. RK

      ... to get rid of toxins, to, to be refreshed and ready for the next day. And people who have shorter sleep are more likely to get cognitive impairment and dementia in the longitudinal studies, and they're more likely to have inflammatory consequences like poor immune responses to viruses or indeed cardiovascular disease. So sleep is very, very important.

    7. RC

      So, you know, like, it, it's always hard with sleep, isn't it?

    8. RK

      Yeah.

    9. RC

      As, as you say, there will be people with, um, young families-

    10. RK

      Yeah

    11. RC

      ... uh, young children who are struggling and, and often they can hear that and go, "Oh man, you know, I'm sleep deprived, I'm knackered. What, what can I do? You know, I'm gonna speed up the rate at which my biological [laughs] clock ages." And I think we have to acknowledge that. We have to recognize that it is tough. It's really tough for adults, for many adults now who don't have help around them, you know?

    12. RK

      Or night shift workers.

    13. RC

      Or night shift workers.

    14. RK

      I mean, you know, people who have to work at night. I mean, the evidence that the night shift is not good for your health is quite strong. Um, but we have to, we have to have workforces who work at night. We've worked at night for a significant-

    15. RC

      Yeah

    16. RK

      ... proportion of our, of our lives. Um-

    17. RC

      So what are your top tips then for people?

    18. RK

      So what, what can we do about it? Exercise during the day helps, okay? But not immediately before you go to bed, because what exercise does is it triggers your whole autonomic nervous system. It gets it all lively and active and awake, and y- it's gonna be awake when you're going to bed. Try and, so try and have a chilling period for a period of time, um, maybe an hour before you go to bed. Read a book or do something to de-stress. Meditate if possible. Make sure the room is dark. We've said that before. Some people find a hot bath or a hot shower helps before sleep. There are foods which are not good, and there are foods which help. So foo- any foods which contain tyramine. Tyramine is a precur- cursor to noradrenaline. Noradrenaline is one of the transmitters involved in the sympathetic system, and that's the fight or flight system. So any foods which contain tyramine will keep you awake at night.

    19. RC

      And what are those foods?

    20. RK

      They are the, like, blue cheeses, dark cheeses, um, um, preserved meats, um, bolognese sauce, anything with additives in it like that, they're not good. Foods which contain tryptophan, which is a, one of the, um, um, proteins involved with serotonin, which is a relaxing, um, if you like, compound, are, are good, and that would be foods such as cottage cheese, um, almonds, the teas we know about, um, believe it or not, fatty fish like salmon.

    21. RC

      Mm-hmm.

    22. RK

      There was a great study in 95 men in each cohort where they ate, uh, salmon before going to bed three times a week versus a group who just ate the same equivalent of protein, but taking different meats with it. And the salmon eaters, their sleep improved over a period-

    23. RC

      Wow

    24. RK

      ... significantly over a short period of time. So omega oils, all, they, they help. Um-

    25. RC

      So that's essentially saying for that particular group that was studied, eating fish in preference to meat if people are choosing to consume animal protein-

    26. RK

      Yeah, yeah

    27. RC

      ... you're saying fish seems to be better-

    28. RK

      Yes

    29. RC

      ... in terms of promoting good sleep-

    30. RK

      Yeah

  15. 2:03:11 – 2:07:46

    Laughter, Purpose and Final Top Tips

    1. RC

      I did wanna cover this, I'm not sure we got a time to go into it in detail, but there's one chapter on purpose-

    2. RK

      Mm

    3. RC

      ... and laughter-

    4. RK

      [laughs]

    5. RC

      ... which is really interesting. Any kind of top line thoughts on those two things you wanna share?

    6. RK

      Well, first of all, laughter is really important, and we know this intuitively 'cause we feel good after, but it releases a whole lot of neurohormones, which are, which are very important for us, and that's actually used therapeutically now. I'll just cite one study which I find amazing, is that people who had had a heart attack, who, who were exposed to laughter therapy, were 48% less likely to get a recurrence of a heart attack. Now, that's a massive figure. So, so that's the benefit. So just carry that moment and know that laughter matters. Laughter is a way of us to bond socially, so it's all tied up with this whole social engagement piece.

    7. RC

      Yeah, it plays into what you said about friendships before.

    8. RK

      Yeah, absolutely.

    9. RC

      Like, if I think about hanging out with my best mates, what do we do? Well, we do lots, but one thing we're, we're always doing is laughing when we're together, right? So-

    10. RK

      It's-

    11. RC

      ... you know, a- again, that speaks to everything, that they're not all in isolation. They all, all of these behaviors-

    12. RK

      Absolutely

    13. RC

      ... kind of-

    14. RK

      Interact

    15. RC

      ... interrelate.

    16. RK

      And you know, kids laugh 400 times a day. There are studies to show this. Toddlers laugh 400 times a day. But we, we laugh so much l- less as we get older. So let's introduce laughter as part of it. [laughs] As-

    17. RC

      So laughter really is the best medicine

    18. RK

      ... laughter is the best medicine. And then purpose. Purpose is terribly important. And, and actually our, my message about that is anything can have purpose. You know, m- if making a shopping list and go down to the shop to get the st- that's purpose. You, you can create purpose in your day. We need to feel purpose. If we feel we have no purpose or, or almost unwanted or unnecessary, and we come back to this whole concept of social isolation of people over 70 and cocooning people over a certain age, if we feel we have nothing to contribute, we have no purpose, that's really bad for us from a physiological perspective.

    19. RC

      Yeah, one of the things in that chapter I particularly liked, and it's something you just echoed now, is that you can find purpose in anything. It really makes me think of what we were saying about attitude.

    20. RK

      Yeah.

    21. RC

      Right? Like, you know, the going to get the shopping can be seen as a chore, "Oh man-

    22. RK

      Mm-hmm

    23. RC

      ... I gotta go and get the shopping now," or whatever it might be. But you can actively reframe that. You know, maybe a bit of gratitude, maybe a bit of, "Oh wow, I, I get to go and actually get the food now that feeds my family or feeds me and my partner," or whatever it might be.

    24. RK

      Yes. Yes.

    25. RC

      And I know it sounds very soft and very simple, I honestly believe that you can train yourself to have this attitude. You can train yourself-

    26. RK

      Yeah

    27. RC

      ... to look at the positive side of everything, even washing the dishes.

    28. RK

      And, and purpose is tied into control, and we need to be in control. There are lots of, lots of studies showing that in an employment hierarchy, those who are in control, that is one of the most important contributors to good health in those individuals compared to those who maybe are often in the bottom of the, of the hierarchical chain and have no control. They have to do what they're told, et cetera. So purpose is part of that. Purpose, if you can reframe it, um, gives you control over your life.

    29. RC

      Yeah.

    30. RK

      It is your purpose and you're framing what your purpose is, therefore you're in control, and that's really good for us biologically.

Episode duration: 2:07:46

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