Nervous System Expert: "If Your Body Does This, DON’T Ignore It! — It Means You’re In Survival Mode"

This episode is brought to you by: AG1: Get 10 FREE Travel Packs and Welcome Kit worth $80 visit: https://bit.ly/43FwxQl Download my FREE Sleep Guide HERE: https://bit.ly/3OzqCap Many of us are living with chronically dysregulated nervous systems, yet we mistake this reactive state for normal. Research suggests that our nervous system acts as a lens through which we experience reality. But when that lens is out of balance, we start to see threats where none exist – and respond in an exaggerated way to everyday situations. Today’s guest believes that by learning to work with our body’s innate wisdom, we can transform not just how we respond to stress, but how we experience life itself. Jonny Miller is the founder of Nervous System Mastery, a 5-week bootcamp where he has taught over a thousand students - from the CEO of a rocket-ship company and burned-out startup founders to busy parents and elite performers - how to cultivate calm, rewire reactivity and restore aliveness. After experiencing profound grief following the loss of his fiancée Sophie, Jonny embarked on a journey to understand how our nervous system shapes every aspect of our lived experience. During this incredible conversation, we discuss: • Why anxiety isn’t actually an emotion, but a protective strategy used by the nervous system to shield us from deeper underlying feelings, and the difference between managing emotions and truly feeling them • The three core skills of nervous system mastery: interoception (tuning into our internal world), self-regulation and emotional fluidity, and why developing these can transform every part of our lives • How emotions themselves typically last just 10 - 20 seconds, but our resistance to feeling them creates what Jonny calls “emotional debt,” which can keep us stuck for weeks, months or even years • Why working with the body (a bottom-up approach) can be more effective than trying to ‘think’ our way out of stress, and how it differs from cognitive strategies like reframing • How practices like cold exposure can help train us to stop resisting discomfort and allow challenging sensations to move through us naturally Jonny’s reflections on grief are particularly moving. He shares how losing Sophie taught him that emotions – even the most painful ones – carry their own kind of wisdom. At its heart, this episode is about remembering what the body already knows. Jonny shows us that beneath our stress and reactivity lies a deep intelligence, and that when we learn to trust it, we can move through life with more presence, resilience and peace. I hope you enjoy listening. #feelbetterlivemore ---- Connect with Jonny: Website https://www.jonnymiller.co/ X https://x.com/jonnym1ller?lang=en Instagram https://www.instagram.com/jonnym1ller/?hl=en-gb Podcast https://curioushumans.com/ Nervous System Mastery Course http://nsmastery.com #feelbetterlivemore #feelbetterlivemorepodcast ------- Order MAKE CHANGE THAT LASTS. US & Canada version https://amzn.to/3RyO3SL, UK version https://amzn.to/3Kt5rUK ----- Follow Dr Chatterjee at: Website: https://drchatterjee.com/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/drchatterjee Twitter: https://twitter.com/drchatterjeeuk Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/drchatterjee/ Newsletter: https://drchatterjee.com/subscription DISCLAIMER: The content in the podcast and on this webpage is not intended to constitute or be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Never disregard professional medical advice or delay in seeking it because of something you have heard on the podcast or on my website.

Dr. Rangan ChatterjeehostJonny Millerguest

Jul 2, 20251h 43mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

100 min read · 19,703 words

0:00 – 3:03
Nervous system as the lens: common signs you’re in survival mode
1. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  As you well know, we don't see the world as it is, we see the world as we are.
2. JMJonny Miller
  Mm-hmm.
3. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  What are some signs, in your view, that might indicate our nervous systems are a little bit out of whack which may color the way we view the world-
4. JMJonny Miller
  Mm
5. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  ... and change the way we experience life?
6. JMJonny Miller
  Yeah. I mean, that's beautifully said. I view the nervous system as a, as literally a lens through which we experience reality. And I think our state of our nervous system and the degree to which we're in a mode of reactivity completely dictates our experience of life. So some signs would include, um, f- forms of reactivity. So if you're, like knee-jerk anger is obviously a clear one, or if there's a sense of fatigue or lethargy or, um, sleep is obviously a huge one as well. That's a big symptom of nervous system dysregulation.
7. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  What, that we can't sleep?
8. JMJonny Miller
  That we or, or, or wake up, struggle to fall asleep, struggle to kind of downshift at the end of the day without kind of using substances. And also, I, I think challenge in relationship is a huge one that I see in my students. So whether it's kind of conflict in different areas or challenges with creating a sense of connection with people that are close to you. There's a lot. Early symptoms of burnout is another one as well. Um, so I, I think about it in terms of like feather, brick, dump truck, and in the beginning maybe your, your nervous system is, is telling you, like, almost like tickling you with a feather of, like, maybe you're going a little bit too hard, maybe it's time to take a bit of a break. And then there's maybe a brick which could be, you know, you wake up feeling exhausted, maybe you're, you've got brain fog, maybe you, you can't really perform at work. And then for some people it takes a dump truck which might be, um, maybe it's like an intense breakup or it's like a health crisis. Um, and it's often unfortunately the dump truck which gets people to really tune in, but it's really just the body giving you feedback.
9. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  Yeah. It's interesting. Those symptoms you mentioned there, some of them, you know, being overly reactive, relationship struggles-
10. JMJonny Miller
  Mm
11. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  ... maybe anxiety would be in there-
12. JMJonny Miller
  Yeah, for sure
13. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  ... you know, for many people.
14. JMJonny Miller
  For sure.
15. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  These are very, very common these days.
16. JMJonny Miller
  Mm-hmm.
17. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  And it's kind of interesting as I sort of think about your work, I think about this idea that I often say on this show that when people are not eating well in a nourishing way-
18. JMJonny Miller
  Mm-hmm
19. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  ... and they've never done it before, they don't know how good they can feel.
20. JMJonny Miller
  Mm. Yeah.
21. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  Right? So until they actually go through the process of having just whole unprocessed foods for two weeks, they have no idea just how much their processed food diet is affecting them in terms of-
22. JMJonny Miller
  Mm
23. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  ... energy, vitality, and how they experience the world.
24. JMJonny Miller
  Mm.
25. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  And I kinda see a similar thing with the nervous system.
26. JMJonny Miller
  Yeah.
27. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  Right?
28. JMJonny Miller
  Totally.
29. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  Many people are walking around with these kind of, uh, tight and wound up nervous systems-
30. JMJonny Miller
  Mm
3:03 – 5:23
Rethinking anxiety: constriction, underlying emotions, and mislabeling excitement
1. JMJonny Miller
  Mm. Yeah, beautiful. I, I mean, anxiety I think is a really good example, and it actually, the word anxiety comes from the Latinango, which literally means to constrict. And a lot of people try and, um, manage anxiety or, like, conquer anxiety, but it's really just our, our reaction to a kind of an underlying emotion. And so it can be really helpful to kind of learn to l- notice the, the constriction in the body and kind of like allow it to, to open up. Um, and, you know, there's a number of different practices for that.
2. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  Yeah.
3. JMJonny Miller
  Um...
4. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  That's interesting. Anxiety is a reaction to an underlying emotion.
5. JMJonny Miller
  Yeah.
6. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  I imagine that a lot of people think that anxiety is an emotion.
7. JMJonny Miller
  Totally.
8. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  Right? But you're sort of framing it slightly differently.
9. JMJonny Miller
  Yeah. It, it's kind of like a, um, a defensive strategy that our nervous system has to constrict against, uh... I, I think about almost like a, like a hose pipe. Like, you can turn on the, the tap really strongly and, you know, the water will kind of go through. And if, if your, if your system is kind of unclenched and doesn't have tension, it'll kind of flow cleanly. But if you're resisting some aspect of your experience, could be anger, could be sadness, could be frustration, whatever it is. And a really obvious example is, like, if someone is, you know, um, before an important conversation maybe they feel scared and afraid and there's a sen- sense of anxiety, but that could also be excitement and it can just, if that system opens and they're kind of connected to the breath, then that... It's really just energy, like energy in motion that's kind of moving through.
10. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  Is there a difference between anxiety and excitement? Or is it just the way that we're framing that tension?
11. JMJonny Miller
  It's the tension in the body I think, yeah.
12. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  Same tension?
13. JMJonny Miller
  Mm-hmm.
14. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  Yeah. That's a really interesting concept 'cause we know that anxiety is on the rise.
15. JMJonny Miller
  Mm-hmm.
16. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  So many people are struggling with anxiety.
17. JMJonny Miller
  Mm.
18. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  And you're saying trying to manage it-
19. JMJonny Miller
  Mm
20. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  ... can make it worse.
21. JMJonny Miller
  Yeah.
22. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  Which in many ways is counterintuitive for people, but I think that's because people don't, they don't know what it feels like these days to experience their body.
23. JMJonny Miller
  Mm. Mm.
24. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  Right? So I imagine some people will hear you talking and go, "Yeah, but what are you talking about constricting-
25. JMJonny Miller
  Mm
26. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  ... in my body?"
27. JMJonny Miller
  Mm.
28. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  "What the hell does that mean?" And so do you find that in the modern world many people are stuck in their heads-
29. JMJonny Miller
  Mm
30. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  ... and don't even know what's going on beneath the neck?
5:23 – 9:01
Three core skills: interoception, self-regulation, emotional fluidity
1. JMJonny Miller
  Yeah, totally. So I think about in the kind of journey of nervous system mastery, of kind of working with, with your nervous system, there's three kind of core skills that I think about, and the first is, is what you, exactly what you spoke to, which is kind of regaining sensitivity of our internal experience. So it's called interoception is, is the kind of fancy name. I know you've written about it in your book. And, um, it's really relearning to listen to the feedback from our body that's coming all of the time. The second skill is self-regulation, and this is, you know, what a lot of people are probably familiar with when it comes to anxiety. This is, uh, there's kind of three-... ways that I think about self-regulating. There's top-down approaches, which might be like cognitive reframes, might be, you know, positive affirmations. Mindfulness is a good example. Um, the second is bottom-up, which is... This is my favorite, honestly. It's like working with the b- or leveraging these levers in our physiology, things like the breath is a really common one, to literally shift our state and create that sense of safety. And from there, um, the third kind of pillar or category is emotional fluidity, and that is-- it's the one that probably takes the longest to learn, but it's learning to welcome the full spectrum of human experience. And beneath anxiety, for a lot of people, it's either like frustration or anger or sometimes sadness. And once there's that sense of kind of safety and calmness that's created from the self-regulation, then the emotion can kind of come through. And, and it's actually, it's the, the resistance to feeling the emotion that is, is the bit that sucks, basically. It, it's n- the emo-emotions themselves don't last for more than, you know, ten to twenty seconds. Um, it's, it's the way that we constrict and tense against them and, um, try to resist feeling them that is the bit that causes the challenge.
2. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  That's really interesting, that emotions themselves don't last beyond, uh, ten to twenty seconds.
3. JMJonny Miller
  Mm-hmm.
4. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  I think-
5. JMJonny Miller
  Which is wild, right? Because like-
6. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  It is wild
7. JMJonny Miller
  ... we, we, we don't think about that normally.
8. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  Yeah. And, and I know you run this incredible five-week course, Nervous System Mastery, where you teach people about all these things.
9. JMJonny Miller
  Mm-hmm.
10. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  And I think I've read somewhere you say that one of the goals of that course is to reduce the half-life of reactivity.
11. JMJonny Miller
  Right.
12. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  Which I thought was really interesting, especially in the context of what you just said. And in some of the stuff I've read from you, you say, like a beginner, for example, might feel angry for, I don't know, two days.
13. JMJonny Miller
  Mm-hmm.
14. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  And an expert might feel angry for two seconds.
15. JMJonny Miller
  Right. Exactly.
16. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  Right? But what was interesting for me is that the expert wasn't not feeling angry.
17. JMJonny Miller
  Completely.
18. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  Right? You were just reducing how long you felt that anger for.
19. JMJonny Miller
  Yeah.
20. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  So I wanna definitely explore that, but I wonder if we should think about like an everyday example that people can relate to, right?
21. JMJonny Miller
  Mm-hmm.
22. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  'Cause at the start, some of those signs that might indicate our nervous system is a little bit out of balance-
23. JMJonny Miller
  Mm-hmm
24. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  ... are, let's say, relationship conflict.
25. JMJonny Miller
  Mm-hmm.
26. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  Right? So many people know that feeling, let's say, let's say they have a partner, and their partner says something, you know, arguably trivial, okay? They, they say something.
27. JMJonny Miller
  Mm-hmm.
28. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  And the other partner, let's say the person listening, gets incredibly triggered by that comment and starts to create stories about what that comment actually means.
29. JMJonny Miller
  Mm-hmm.
30. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  They feel angry and not listened to, whatever it might be, okay? So is that a useful example to try and unpick, you know, what's actually going on there? So-
9:01 – 11:22
Triggers in relationships: hyperarousal vs hypoarousal and the window of tolerance
1. JMJonny Miller
  No, totally. I mean, that's a great example. Um, there's, there's basically two modes of reactivity that all humans have. One mode, the technical term is hyperarousal, like aggression, intensity, anger. And then hypoarousal is more like, um, collapsing, shutting down, kind of guarding against. And most people tend to lean one way or the other. So for example, I tend to kind of become more guarded, tend to be kind of more emotionally unavailable in conflict. And, um, the way that, the way that you know that you're in some kind of pattern or trigger is, as you say, you're kind of responding disproportionately to what has happened. So it's, you know, it's very normal if someone... You know, if you were to like shout at me or insult me, it would be normal for me to like have a reaction to that. But if you say something that's, you know, isn't designed to kind of offend me, then, but I, I get reactive or I start to close down, then that's a sign that I'm in some kind of trigger. And, you know, for me, it's kind of closing off. It's becoming kind of emotionally unavailable. And you know, what's funny is for a long time, I thought that I was just like a very calm person. I thought that I was like, um, very even-keeled, very like... didn't get reactive at all. But actually, I was, in so many situations, I was kind of subtly withdrawing a sense of connection out of, like, self-protection, basically. Um, and as soon as I was able to notice that that was what was happening for me, and my partner kind of the same as well for her, then I would a- I, I could prioritize coming back into what's known as the window of tolerance, which is a very important kind of concept in this world of nervous system practices. And I know I'm in my window of tolerance when I feel grounded, I feel in myself, I feel a sense of, um... I'm like here. I'm like I'm not disassociated and I'm, I'm not checked out. I'm not, um, uh, trying to attack someone. And it's really, really hard to have any kind of productive conflict in relationship, and I think all relationships have, you know, some degree of conflict. I think it's really healthy. But if one or both of you isn't in that place of being in their bodies and, and kind of that, has that sense of, of regulation and being in that window of tolerance, then it'll just be kind of back and forth of... Usually, the pattern is, like, someone gets aggressive and someone gets defensive.
11:22 – 15:56
What it means to be ‘in your body’: training interoception with APE
1. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  Yeah. We'll come on to relation in just a minute. You, you said something there that's really interesting for me, and it's something I think about a lot, this idea that you need to be in your body.
2. JMJonny Miller
  Mm.
3. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  Now, I think some people are gonna hear that and go, "Yeah, I know exactly what you mean," you know? "I know what it means to be in my body."
4. JMJonny Miller
  Mm-hmm.
5. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  "I know what it means when I'm not in my body." But there'll also be maybe fifty percent of people listening, as a rough guess-
6. JMJonny Miller
  [chuckles]
7. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  ... who heard that phrase and thought, "I don't know what Jonny's talking about."
8. JMJonny Miller
  Sure.
9. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  "What, what does it mean to be in my body?" So-
10. JMJonny Miller
  Yeah
11. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  ... I'm, I'm guessing that people who come onto your five-week course, I imagine there's some people who come in-
12. JMJonny Miller
  Totally
13. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  ... who also don't know what that means. So can you just help people-
14. JMJonny Miller
  Yeah
15. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  ... understand that?
16. JMJonny Miller
  Yeah. I mean, I, I think it's, um, it's not binary, right? It's definitely on a spectrum. So-I think about it as, as almost like upgrading your, your sense of your internal landscape, like a, um, like a chef kind of learning to taste, right? When someone goes into culinary school, they will learn to, um, train their flavor palate to notice, like, increasing subtlety in the flavors that they're tasting.
17. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  Hmm.
18. JMJonny Miller
  And it's kind of the same with our sensations and with our emotions. We can... We have this, this, like, interoceptive palate that we can increasingly tune into and treat as, as real-time feedback coming from our body, and this is known as interoception, and it helps with decision-making. It helps with knowing, you know, what state we're in, like maybe we need to take a bit of a break. Um, maybe when you wake up in the morning, like you kind of tune, like, like how are you feeling? And the three, the kind of practice that I teach around this, um, you know, it's very trainable. Um, I call it APE, which stands for awareness, posture, and emotion. And awareness is, again, something that a lot of people don't think about, but your awareness in any moment can be kind of expansive. Like, you could be aware of, like, the space the sides of you, the space above you, below you, or usually when people get stressed or reactive, the awareness is almost like it's like looking f- experiencing life through a straw. It's like just in front of you and very narrow. Um, posture is another one, and then emotions and sensations. Um, again, like, like right now, I can kind of like notice my, my butt on the seat, my feet on the floor, kind of feeling into my hands, feeling the back of my body, and it's, it's really just the kind of, um, practice of tuning into the different facets of your experience.
19. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  Yeah. It's interesting, isn't it? Because you grew up in the UK-
20. JMJonny Miller
  Yeah
21. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  ... like me. I know you've moved now to America.
22. JMJonny Miller
  Yeah, yeah.
23. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  Um, but I imagine it's the same in America. It's quite a head-based culture.
24. JMJonny Miller
  Mm-hmm.
25. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  And I know you, you've read my latest book in, in, in chapter one, which is one of my favorite chapters, which is all about trusting yourself and-
26. JMJonny Miller
  Mm
27. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  ... interoception. And-
28. JMJonny Miller
  Mm-hmm
29. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  ... uh, I mention, um, the story from, uh, a tribe where they were very confused that people in America thought with their heads because to them-
30. JMJonny Miller
  Mm
15:56 – 22:56
Predictive processing and somatic markers: catching reactivity early
1. JMJonny Miller
  Yeah. No, it's a great example. And, and maybe another kind of frame to add to this is that our nervous system uses what's known as predictive processing. So it's essentially making predictions the entire time about our lived experience and about what is happening.
2. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  Yeah.
3. JMJonny Miller
  So, so as you say, um, you can read a comment, and you can form a prediction in 100 different ways about what, about what that means. Um, and those predictions will also be informed by your current state of being. So if, if I'm in a kind of, like, triggered, reactive, stressed out, exhausted state, I'm gonna read that comment differently than if I'm, like, well-slept, you know, well-hydrated, et cetera, et cetera.
4. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  We see the world through the lens of our nervous system.
5. JMJonny Miller
  Of our nervous system. Exactly.
6. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  Exactly.
7. JMJonny Miller
  Exactly. And, and so being aware of the state that you're in is actually really useful information for when you're interpreting, let's say a comment or let's say a conflict. And one of the, um, the practices, 'cause I wanna make this as practical as possible, that was pioneered by, uh, Damasio, who was this really famous neuroscientist. He talked about somatic markers, and what that basically means is everyone has a different set of somatic markers, which are like the early warning signs that you're entering some kind of reactive state.
8. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  Okay.
9. JMJonny Miller
  So in the example of a conflict between a, a, a married couple, let's say, um, maybe, you know, maybe for me, I start to notice there's like, oh, there's like some, like, tension in my chest while we're talking, or maybe there's like a knot in my, in my stomach, and it feels like, ugh, and there's this, this like, ugh, that doesn't feel good. Um, and if you're, if you're aware of that, you can, you can kind of like bring it up and, and present it and say like, "Hey, I'm noticing that there's this, this, uh, tension in my chest. When this has happened before, I've ended up, like, shouting at you. [chuckles] And so I'm gonna take, like, a few minutes to kind of step away, put my feet on the grass, get some fresh air, and then come back, and I, I wanna have this conversation. I wanna have... You know, this is really important, but I don't feel like I'm able to kind of be grounded in this, in this state."
10. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  Yeah, I, I love that, right? I think for me, there's a really key point there, which is nervous system mastery, as you call your course, right?
11. JMJonny Miller
  Mm-hmm.
12. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  Which I think is a wonderful name.
13. JMJonny Miller
  Mm-hmm.
14. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  Um, is gonna take some time.
15. JMJonny Miller
  Totally.
16. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  Right?
17. JMJonny Miller
  Yeah.
18. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  If you are living in a reactive state and you get overly triggered to, let's say, the actions of your partner-
19. JMJonny Miller
  Yeah
20. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  You're not gonna just hear this podcast and suddenly go, "Oh, yeah, great. I'm gonna be totally chill now when it happens."
21. JMJonny Miller
  Yeah.
22. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  You know? It's gonna be a process of learning, like if you were gonna train to run a marathon-
23. JMJonny Miller
  Exactly
24. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  ... you'd have to practice.
25. JMJonny Miller
  Exactly.
26. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  So what you just said there for me is something that I feel I probably brought into my marriage a few years ago as I've been-
27. JMJonny Miller
  Mm
28. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  ... on this journey to kind of-
29. JMJonny Miller
  Beautiful
30. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  ... regulate my own nervous system, which is-
22:56 – 28:04
Emotional debt, allostatic load, and completing the stress cycle (impala example)
1. JMJonny Miller
  Yes. I mean, it's like doing reps at a gym, right? It does take practice, but our nervous systems are neuroplastic, like, a- along with our brain. And so with practice, we can rewire these maladaptive responses to stress. And the other thing that I want to bring this back to is, um, th- this idea of, of emotions or avoided emotions and specifically emotional debt because the more that we go through life and... You know, our, our nervous systems have this amazing capacity to buffer our emotional responses, which, you know, in many, many situations is super useful. Like, let's say, I don't know, um, someone on the street, on the street just, like, shout to me or I'm in a, in a boardroom meeting and I get really angry.
2. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  Mm.
3. JMJonny Miller
  It's actually good for me to be able to, like, suppress that and kind of save it for later. But if I do that, you know, repeatedly over many days or weeks or months, that builds up this emotional debt, is what I call it. And in the nervous system, this is a buildup of allostatic load, and what this does, this kind of wear and tear, it, it's, it drains energy from the system, which reduces our window of tolerance. So I imagine listeners will be familiar that, like, you know, maybe they, maybe they start a new job, and in the beginning they've got, like, a ton of energy and they, they, they feel vibrant. But as time goes on, it feels like they get more and more reactive over time. And that, I believe, is due to this buildup of allostatic load, which is in part contributed to by, um, not allowing these-... the emotional reflex arc to be completed. And, and so, you know, many of us are walking around with, um, like, pockets of buffered emotional responses, which is contributing to this sense of exhaustion and fatigue and, and low capacity, basically.
4. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  Yeah, I, I really like that idea of emotional debt and this idea that we're not completing our emotional responses.
5. JMJonny Miller
  Exactly.
6. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  Okay. I, I think it's a really, really important point for us all to reflect on. I know you like to give the example of the, the lion and the impala.
7. JMJonny Miller
  Yeah.
8. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  So maybe-
9. JMJonny Miller
  Exactly
10. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  ... perhaps use that as a way of helping people understand what it means to complete-
11. JMJonny Miller
  Yeah
12. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  ... that stress response fully.
13. JMJonny Miller
  Yeah. So people can, um, search this on YouTube. There's a great video of a impala that is chased by a lion. It's literally, like, in its jaws. It manages to escape, and the next kind of five minutes, it finds its way to hide under a bush, and it just lies down, and it, and its entire body just starts shaking. It shakes and shakes and shakes for about two or three minutes, and it just gets up and it's totally fine. But that shaking is the kind of mammalian response that we all have of discharging that intensity and that stress that it just went through. And humans have kind of forgotten how to do that. There's definitely ways that you can, um, whether it's through breathwork or whether it's through, I have a practice I call somatic surfing, or even just creating a sense of safety, um, sometimes the body will kind of go into to complete that emotional response that it wasn't able to at the time. 'Cause often we will disassociate or we'll push it down, and again, that's great, but if we don't set aside time for some kind of, um, processing to just allow the emotions to complete, then they, they get stored and they, they, they drain energy from the, the battery of your body, basically.
14. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  Yeah, that's a very vivid image, an impala, um, almost being dead and having all that stress within them-
15. JMJonny Miller
  Yeah
16. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  ... that they then process. The stress is gone. They go about living their life.
17. JMJonny Miller
  Yeah.
18. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  And I mean, it's really interesting. Last July, my family and I, for our summer holidays, we went to Kenya, and one of the things we did was-
19. JMJonny Miller
  Mm
20. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  ... go on safari.
21. JMJonny Miller
  Mm.
22. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  I was quite scared before I went. Like, I, I, I cognitively I couldn't get my head around the fact that I was gonna be in a car, and I was actually hoping our car was closed-
23. JMJonny Miller
  [laughs]
24. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  ... but it wasn't. It was open.
25. JMJonny Miller
  [laughs]
26. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  Right? Which was great, but-
27. JMJonny Miller
  Yeah
28. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  ... I, I was just like, hold on. So there's gonna be wild animals there, and I was quite tense the first time for sure.
29. JMJonny Miller
  Okay.
30. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  I was holding onto the edge and like-
28:04 – 32:52
Movement and environment as regulation: co-regulation, green space, and the ‘cathedral effect’
1. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  ... to your example about the wild and how mammals will complete that stress response, it makes me think of this movement-deprived Western world in which many of us live, right?
2. JMJonny Miller
  Mm.
3. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  And we talk about the benefits of physical activity for our hormones or our physical health.
4. JMJonny Miller
  Mm-hmm.
5. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  There's more talk these days about what physical activity does for our mental wellbeing.
6. JMJonny Miller
  Mm-hmm.
7. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  But as you were talking, I thought, do you think that one of the reasons why movement, whether it be walking or running or going to the gym-
8. JMJonny Miller
  Mm
9. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  ... makes us feel so good-
10. JMJonny Miller
  Mm
11. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  ... is because it completes or it helps us complete a stress response-
12. JMJonny Miller
  Mm
13. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  ... that may have been left partially uncompleted within our bodies?
14. JMJonny Miller
  Yeah. I, I think that's a, I think that's largely, uh, a, a big part of it. And, you know, I used to go for a run. Like, that was my way of if I'd had an intense day, I'd kind of go for a run around, around the block or in the park. Um, and I'd feel better when I got back. And I think the, the other thing that you're speaking to is the, you know, the environment that we're in very much dictates our own experience to some degree as well. So I, I think about the best metaphor I have for the nervous system is as a... It's like as an instrument. Like, we have these human instruments, and sometimes we can, we can get out of tune. That's how I think of dysregulation. But in certain environments, I mean, I felt this the other day on a, like, incredibly busy London Underground tube, like, we are kind of co-regulating with the other people and the environments that we're in. And as mammals, we feel much more grounded, relaxed, expansive in something like, you know, I was at, uh, Soho Park just before this, this, this podcast, and there I was like, oh, I feel so good. And, you know, everyone can relate to that, but I think that it, it's really helpful to think about how we can, to the degree that we can design our environments, they then will design us in return. And so there's constantly this kind of like, um, attuned relationship between, you know, between me and you right now, between, uh, the room that we're, that we're in, the, the p- the plants. Like, our nervous system is constantly looking for these signals of, like, like, am I safe? Can I, can I relax? And so I think there's definitely an argument to be made of intentionally designing your environment for the state that is appropriate for that moment. So another example is, um, there's something called the cathedral effect, which is where if you have, like, a, like, a high ceiling, there've been studies that have shown that's better for, like, creative thinking versus, like-
15. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  Mm
16. JMJonny Miller
  ... a low ceiling is much better for, like, analytical, kind of maybe data-driven tasks. And so we're, we're constantly-Being, uh, yeah, like impacted by our environment.
17. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  [instrumental music] One of the most important pillars for our health is, of course, nutrition. But I think because of our busy, stressed out lives, so many people are struggling despite their best intentions. So many patients over the years have told me that they know what they should be doing [laughs] , but they're struggling to actually do it, and that's why I'm a fan of AG1. AG1 is a daily health drink that contains over 70 vitamins, minerals and other ingredients that are designed to make nutrition really easy. It's been in my own life for over six years now. It's simple, it's tasty, it's convenient, and it forms a part of my morning routine. People will routinely tell me that taking AG1 regularly has improved their focus, their cognition, their energy. Some people even tell me that they drink less coffee when they're taking AG1. And there's research out there showing us that taking AG1 regularly can improve specific markers of your gut health, which is really good for your immune health. So if you're looking to upgrade your own nutrition in a simple, tasty and convenient way, try AG1. To get 10 free travel packs and an awesome welcome kit, go to drinkag1.com/livemore. To make sure you are taking action after watching this video, I have created a free special guide to help you improve your sleep and reduce fatigue. Now, in my clinical experience, most people who are struggling to sleep are doing something unconsciously in their day-to-day life that is negatively impacting their ability to sleep at night. So in this free guide, I share with you five of my very top tips, tips that I have seen transform the lives of many of my patients. So if you wanna get hold of this guide, all you have to do is click on the link in the description box below. So it's interesting, we're, we're in the middle of London at the moment in a studio recording this
32:52 – 35:46
Bottom-up tools for urban stress: humming, breath, stretching, and peripheral vision
1. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  conversation, okay?
2. JMJonny Miller
  Mm-hmm.
3. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  So many people do live in very urban settings.
4. JMJonny Miller
  Mm-hmm.
5. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  Okay? And of course, some people cannot exert much control over their external environment.
6. JMJonny Miller
  Mm-hmm.
7. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  So what are the kind of things that we-
8. JMJonny Miller
  Mm
9. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  ... can do in our homes, in our flats, in our apartments-
10. JMJonny Miller
  Mm
11. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  ... to try and negate the effects of the outside world?
12. JMJonny Miller
  Mm. Well, I, I'd say there's, there's both, there's internal things and there's external things.
13. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  Okay.
14. JMJonny Miller
  So your body is constantly getting signals from both your body and the environment. So for people who are in these kind of like busy, loud environments, obviously, you know, externally you can wear noise-canceling headphones, things like that, or just like reduce the intensity of stimulus if you're looking to kind of unwind at the end of the day, for example. Um, but I think more practical and more effective, honestly, are learning what I call bottom-up techniques or practices. Uh, so these would include things like humming is actually really effective. It increases nitric oxide by, I think 15-fold, and it's a vasodilator, which helps with eye strain as well, and helps us kind of downshift into that parasympathetic state. Um, other things would be long hold stretches, um, exhale emphasized breathing practices, so like 4-7-8 is a really common one. Um, or just any breath where the exhale is twice as long as the inhale. It will have a kind of calming effect. Um, and, and another one that you can do without, you know, externally changing anything is a kind of playing with your awareness. So you can be aware of the space like behind you, feeling your feet on the ground, um, attuning to like the sounds around you. And the more that your awareness is kind of expansive, I'm like doing a little bit right now. Like or-
15. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  Yeah
16. JMJonny Miller
  ... you can kind of put your hands out here for people who, who can see on the video, and then as you kind of move them behind you, you're kind of expanding your peripheral vision, and that has this kind of expansive effect, and it creates a sense of spaciousness in the system.
17. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  Yeah. That whole visual piece is really interesting. Um-
18. JMJonny Miller
  Mm.
19. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  I worked with, with this incredible movement coach called Helen Hall, and one of the things Helen has helped me with is understanding the importance of peripheral vision-
20. JMJonny Miller
  Mm
21. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  ... when, let's say, you're running. And she has shown me, and I've seen the data, that when you are running or walking-
22. JMJonny Miller
  Mm-hmm
23. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  ... with narrow-focused vision-
24. JMJonny Miller
  Mm
25. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  ... right? Which many of us would be doing, and if you're in a narrow urban street, you probably are gonna be doing that.
26. JMJonny Miller
  Mm.
27. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  You move a certain way.
28. JMJonny Miller
  Mm.
29. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  And if you then tune into expanding your vision, softening it-
30. JMJonny Miller
  Mm-hmm
35:46 – 43:16
Top-down vs bottom-up (and outside-in): stacking approaches + the self-regulation paradox
1. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  Um, so those practices actually, yeah, they're really helpful to think about. I, I wanna go into some of them in detail, right? But you mentioned this bottom-up practices.
2. JMJonny Miller
  Mm-hmm.
3. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  Okay. And before you mentioned top-down.
4. JMJonny Miller
  Mm-hmm.
5. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  Okay. So I wanna really kind of, um, unpack it.
6. JMJonny Miller
  Mm.
7. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  Okay? So top-down-
8. JMJonny Miller
  Mm-hmm
9. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  ... i.e., with your mind from your brain downwards, you're cognitively reframing things. You're thinking about things differently.
10. JMJonny Miller
  Mm-hmm.
11. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  Bottom-up is some sort of body-based practice-
12. JMJonny Miller
  Mm
13. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  ... like the breath, for example, that is naturally-
14. JMJonny Miller
  Yeah
15. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  ... changing things in your nervous system. Is that-
16. JMJonny Miller
  Yeah
17. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  ... or how would you frame it?
18. JMJonny Miller
  Yeah. So, so the example you gave with the, the lion, seeing that the lion's belly was full was a great example of like a top-down reframe because you noticed that, oh, the... So n- now the lion is no longer a threat. So you, you kind of changed a belief that you had that was making a prediction about the world about whether or not the lion-
19. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  Yeah
20. JMJonny Miller
  ... is a threat. So that was a great example of like a very effective top-down intervention. There's many others in the kind of, um- [lips smack] You know, CBT is another good example of, like, cognitive reframes. But what I love about bottom-up, and, and there's some interesting science around this as well in that, um, we have... I believe it's something like four times more afferent neurons than efferent neurons, and the afferent neurons are the ones that go from the body up to the, up to the brain, up to the head, and efferent go from the brain, head down to the body. So there's essentially, like, a kind of four-lane superhighway of information going up and, like, one lane of traffic going down. And to me, that kind of indicates that the way that we make predictions is much more heavily influenced by what our body is experiencing than by the kind of thoughts and feelings and emotions that we're, that we're having.
21. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  Okay. Love it. So this is where I'm at with my thinking with this at the moment.
22. JMJonny Miller
  Okay. Yeah. Mm-hmm.
23. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  Compared to, let's say, five years ago, I feel my nervous system is in a completely different state.
24. JMJonny Miller
  Mm.
25. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  Generally speaking, today, I feel pretty calm, contented most of the time.
26. JMJonny Miller
  Mm.
27. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  I'm not really reactive. Very little stresses me out compared to what used to happen.
28. JMJonny Miller
  Mm.
29. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  Now, the internet, the modern world wants to know what was the one thing I did-
30. JMJonny Miller
  Right
43:16 – 55:05
Are emotions stored in the body? Smooth-muscle ‘latches,’ pre-verbal trauma, and bypassing
1. JMJonny Miller
  And you mentioned earlier that emotions are stored in the body, and up until recently, I think this was a fairly kind of almost like a fringe belief, or we didn't really have like a mechanism for this. And there's a really interesting, um, theoretical neuroscientist called Michael Edward Johnson.
2. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  Mm.
3. JMJonny Miller
  And he has this idea that, um, in the smooth muscle tissue, there are these latches that are created every time we kind of, um, buffer these emotions. And so there are literally, like, pockets of tension that are stored in the smooth muscle tissue using this latch, latch bridge mechanism.
4. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  Mm.
5. JMJonny Miller
  And my belief, I'd love to find a way to test this. I'm, I'm working with him to try and run an experiment on this.
6. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  Wow.
7. JMJonny Miller
  But I would love to be able to do a kind of before and after of let, let's say, you know, before a series of five breathwork journeys or before MDMA-assisted psychotherapy. Like, what is someone's latch profile before and after? 'Cause, you know, you can see it. Sometimes my students or, or my, my breathwork clients, you can literally see the tension kind of dissolve in their face or different areas, or they feel like, "Oh, like I suddenly... I have, like, I have sensations in my belly that I didn't have before." You know, these things happen anecdotally, but I, I would, I would bet that there is a s- you know, a strong correlation between these latches in the smooth muscle tissue and the amount of just unprocessed, undigested emotions.
8. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  Yeah. That is so interesting.
9. JMJonny Miller
  Super interesting.
10. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  Well, it brings up quite a few things for me. Firstly, this idea that emotions are stored in the body-
11. JMJonny Miller
  Mm-hmm
12. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  ... and this idea that you mentioned that until recently it's been deemed, like, quite a fringe concept.
13. JMJonny Miller
  Mm-hmm.
14. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  And I think in many ways that is a reflection of the head-based rational world in which we live, right?
15. JMJonny Miller
  Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
16. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  The need to find a mechanism for something that many humans will say, "Well, we've intuitively known this for thousands of years."
17. JMJonny Miller
  Mm. Yeah.
18. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  Now, I'm not saying we shouldn't find a mechanism. I think it's, it's fun to.
19. JMJonny Miller
  Yeah.
20. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  At the same time, I find many things are deemed fringe [laughs] when we don't have a scientific mechanism to explain them.
21. JMJonny Miller
  Yeah.
22. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  You know, I've been into an... You know, I've been in enough movement classes over the years to see when people have certain movements unlocked and released-
23. JMJonny Miller
  Mm
24. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  ... they can be shaking and crying-
25. JMJonny Miller
  Yeah
26. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  ... for like 20 minutes sometimes.
27. JMJonny Miller
  Totally. Totally.
28. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  It's like, oh my God, what on earth was stored in your hip flexors-
29. JMJonny Miller
  Yeah. Yeah
30. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  ... that when you f- finally release them for the first time-
55:05 – 1:10:55
Working with anger: clean boundaries vs defensive aggression, and practical discharge methods
1. JMJonny Miller
  Totally. So I'll actually give, um, two suggestions here. One's like the kind of beginner level, and the other is like the advanced level. And m- I'll maybe give some more context around anger as well 'cause it's, it's a really good example. Um, so anger can, in my view, get kinked in two different ways.And if you think of, like, it moving through a hose pipe, if you kink it one way something happens, if you kink it the other something else happens.
2. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  Okay.
3. JMJonny Miller
  If you kink it one way, it comes out as, like, passive aggression where, you know, someone's like, "Oh," like, like, like, "Nice T-shirt," or, you know, it's that kind of, like-
4. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  [laughs]
5. JMJonny Miller
  ... kinked way of, like, being angry but not really owning your anger.
6. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  What's wrong with my T-shirt?
7. JMJonny Miller
  Yeah, I mean, mate [laughs]
8. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  [laughs]
9. JMJonny Miller
  You actually have a nice T-shirt on.
10. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  [laughs]
11. JMJonny Miller
  I, I really like it. Um, and then the other way is, you know, what people more commonly think of as, as anger, which is, like, aggression. And again, it's, it's not really feeling the anger, it's like blaming someone else for your experience basically and being, and being overly aggressive.
12. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  So hold on. So let's just really try and land this. So the, the... Something's happened that we're feeling angry about, but instead of feeling it we're sort of blaming the other person.
13. JMJonny Miller
  Getting defensive in, in, in some way.
14. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  We're getting defensive, right?
15. JMJonny Miller
  Yeah.
16. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  So help people understand what's the difference between that and feeling the anger? 'Cause some people-
17. JMJonny Miller
  Yeah, yeah
18. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  ... might feel that, hold on a minute, well, that is me being angry.
19. JMJonny Miller
  Mm.
20. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  My defensiveness is a reflection of me being angry.
21. JMJonny Miller
  Mm-hmm.
22. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  But you're saying that's not-
23. JMJonny Miller
  Mm
24. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  ... feeling the anger.
25. JMJonny Miller
  Mm-hmm. Yeah. The... There's a really, um... I'd say the best way to, uh, articulate this is to the degree that you're kind of grounded and in your body when you're expressing the anger. And, and so, like, anger that it's, like, clean anger, let's say, is, is the, the phrase that I have, is basically just, like, clarity and determination and, like, setting a boundary. What comes from really clean anger is, like, setting a boundary from a place of love. It's like, "No," like, "That's not okay." Like, that's kind of the energy of, like, clean anger. But, um, often it takes a while to kind of get to the point where we can just express in that kind of, like, clean, loving way. And so having a practice... So let's kind of go back to the example of someone in, in a boardroom. Someone said something super angry. It wasn't appropriate to kind of e-... maybe even speak, so they, they leave the room, they're really charged. There's this, like, "Ar," this, like, real energy. Um, I mean, there's a number of ways that you can, you can kind of work with this. Uh, m- some of my clients will, like, go on drives, and they'll just, like, roll the windows up and drive on the road and just, like, like, let it out, like, make loud sound. I generally recommend, like, breath, sound, and movement are three good kind of ways of expressing the energy.
26. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  Breath, sound, and movement.
27. JMJonny Miller
  Breath, sound, and movement. Yeah.
28. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  You, and you say expressing the energy. Is that the same as feeling the energy, or is that subtly different?
29. JMJonny Miller
  So some of the signs that I can kind of give to people are, like, if you feel a sense of, um, relief or, like, an exhale or, like, a sigh afterwards, that particular reflex or that emotion has completed.
30. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  Okay. Hold on. Right. So, so you went, you... Okay, let's make this super practical. So you're in the room. You don't like something that's happened. You feel your boss hasn't spoken to you in the way that you think is appropriate.
1:10:55 – 1:27:49
Grief, cold water, and the practice of letting go: from tragedy to aliveness
1. JMJonny Miller
  And so I think there's, there's like a-- there's an amazing opportunity for just so many creative experiments that you can create. And I know you, you kind of have some of these on your, on your tour and in your book. I think kind of co-creating experiments with, with people to-- so they can feel some of these things for themselves is, is the way that we learn. And so an example might be, um, I love recommending people take a cold shower, but not because of the health benefits, even though there are a bunch of health benefits.
2. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  Mm-hmm.
3. JMJonny Miller
  But paying like really cl- close attention to what happens to your body as you start to go towards the cold icy water. And for most people, there's a sense of like contracting and tensing, like you're bracing yourself against the freezing cold water. I used to go swimming around the pier in Brighton every morning, and most of the time I'd approach it and I'd be like, "Oh, like I, I'm gonna be, I'm gonna be freezing." And that bracing is the same, the exact same response that we have to emotions and to, to kind of life situations. And if you can kind of be attuned to what that feels like in your body and gradually start to relax, um, the cold and, and emotions can actually feel very just like enlivening. And for me, this was actually how I, I kind of moved through grief. Um, I, I lost my... My ex-fiancée took her own life, and it was through going swimming in around this pier in Brighton and learning to like let in the cold and not tense against it, and then applying that same, that same like move in a way to the grief and just allowing it to kind of move through me that I was like, like, wow. And, and, you know, and that totally, like that changed my life. Um, and so finding ways to create experiments. I mean, you could take a number of things that we've talked about and, and design your own experiment around it so that you can see if you can feel it. And another example is, you know, doing humming or doing one of the breathwork practices like four, seven, eight breathing. It won't stick unless you, you notice how you feel in the beginning, you do the breathing practice, and then you notice how you feel afterwards. And if you feel different or better, that will like register in your body of like, oh, like I sh- I'll do that again, and you'll remember to do it in a time down the line when you need it.
4. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  Yeah.
5. JMJonny Miller
  As opposed to just intellectually thinking that it's a good idea.
6. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  Hey man, I'm sorry to hear about, um, what you've been through.
7. JMJonny Miller
  Mm.
8. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  Um, do you feel able to share a little bit-
9. JMJonny Miller
  Yeah
10. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  ... more about that? Because it sounds-
11. JMJonny Miller
  Yeah, please
12. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  ... it sounds like that was pivotal in the journey you've embarked upon-
13. JMJonny Miller
  Mm
14. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  ... and what you do today.
15. JMJonny Miller
  Yeah. Yeah. I was actually down in Brighton yesterday, um, visiting her memorial tree. There was a, a tree that we planted down there. Um-I, I mean, I think what's, what's relevant to this conversation is Sophie was a junior doctor, and she suffered from an anxiety attack, uh, one morning at work when I was, I was traveling in Portugal. And she came back, and she took her own life, and she overdosed on medication. And [clears throat] yeah, I mean, this completely-- this was, like, my pivotal kind of turning point where I'd never... You know, I'd had a pretty great childhood. I'd never been through anything hard or challenging. But I, I'd seen other adults who had, who had not digested their grief, and there was this sense of like, um, almost like deadness or numbness or, like, lack of aliveness in them that I was honestly, I was, like, terrified by. And I, and I, I said to myself, like, "If I don't move towards this grief, I will end up like those, like, husks of human beings." And so I kind of turned towards it and went, like, really leaned in. Um, you know, in the beginning, it was meditation retreats, breathwork, um, all, all this kind of stuff and l- like learning how to, how to feel the grief e- essentially. And there was one moment that I, I just p- like really, really remember. Um, I was kind of approaching her memorial bench in this, this place called Leova Sands, and every step I took towards it, there was this, like, this, like, intensity building in my system, and it just felt like, felt like the grief was like a tidal wave that was, like, moving through me. And as I got closer and closer, it, it, it felt like it almost just, like, it was, like, more than I could take, and it almost just, like, obliterated me. But what was so shocking was that if I let go of the story about having this tragic loss, it actually felt beautiful. It felt like it was, like, the energy of love, like, the energy of, like, deep connection and, like, rawness. And that was such a... That was-- It was just s- It was confusing in the beginning 'cause I was like, grief is meant to be this, like, hard, challenging thing. This terrible thing happened to me or, and, and to her. But it was, it was beautiful, and it felt almost, like, deeply joyful in a way. And that just, uh... And at that point I was, "Okay, I... Everything I thought I knew about emotions is clearly, like, I have more to learn here." Um, and so that kind of set me on this path, which eventually, eventually landed in the nervous system work-
16. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  Yeah
17. JMJonny Miller
  ... and, and kind of teaching this stuff. Yeah.
18. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  Many people struggle with death.
19. JMJonny Miller
  Mm.
20. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  They don't know what to do when a loved one dies.
21. JMJonny Miller
  Mm.
22. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  And I once heard you say that you believe that the five stages of grief might well be the five ways in which we try and resist-
23. JMJonny Miller
  Mm
24. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  ... grief.
25. JMJonny Miller
  Mm-hmm.
26. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  Which is really powerful. It's very thought-provoking.
27. JMJonny Miller
  Mm.
28. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  And it kind of fits with an idea that I think has probably been sitting on top of everything we've spoken about today, which is this idea that, you know, what we resist persists.
29. JMJonny Miller
  Mm.
30. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  Yeah. So this idea that actually we live in the world, we interact with the world, and we're gonna feel certain emotions. And as long as we feel that emotion, process the emotion, and then move on from the emotion, in many ways, it doesn't stay stuck within us. It doesn't cause that emotional debt-
1:27:49 – 1:43:18
Societal nervous system clues: cold-plunge boom, caffeine culture, and rebuilding recovery rhythms
1. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  Yeah. I love, uh, Jonny, observing societal trends and trying to sit back and go, "What does this societal trend tell us-
2. JMJonny Miller
  Mm
3. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  ... about the state of society?"
4. JMJonny Miller
  Mm.
5. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  Okay? So I've got a couple of questions that have just come up for me that I wanna put to you-
6. JMJonny Miller
  Okay
7. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  ... about what these trends tell us about the state of our nervous systems.
8. JMJonny Miller
  Okay.
9. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  Okay? There's more and more people now intentionally embracing the cold, right? Cold plunge, cold showers. We've spoken about that today a little bit. Okay? What do you think that growing trend of cold plunges-
10. JMJonny Miller
  Mm
11. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  ... tells us about the state of societal nervous systems, if anything?
12. JMJonny Miller
  Mm. Yeah, interesting. If I was to kind of hazard a guess, I think there's a lot of people that feel in some way, like, numb to their lives and to the world, and my guess is that many people are looking for experiences that help them to feel alive. And I think that freezing cold water is, is a incredibly efficient mechanism for creating a, like, undeniable sense of aliveness in the body, even if it's only for a short period of time. And my guess is that that would be-
13. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  Mm.
14. JMJonny Miller
  That would be part of it. You know, beyond the kind of health benefits and, uh, you know, there's a kind of like bravado and, like, kind of power that comes from it as well. But I, I think, I think for me at least, there's part of the draw is there's, there's a sense of aliveness and also a sense of, um, of, like, empowerment. I think a lot of people-
15. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  Mm
16. JMJonny Miller
  ... feel like they are, going back to what we were talking about earlier, they're kind of victims of the world, of, of reality in different ways. And by learning how to overcome the intensity of the reaction to the cold and to be able to sit with it, if they can do that in the cold, then they can do it in other areas of life as well. And so I think there's probably a combination of those two.
17. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  The growing rise of coffee shops and cafe culture. [laughs]
18. JMJonny Miller
  [laughs]
19. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  What does our caffeine consumption-
20. JMJonny Miller
  Yeah
21. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  ... uh, say about the state of our nervous systems?
22. JMJonny Miller
  Yeah. I, I love the taste of coffee myself, and I've... Um, so I have nothing against coffee. But I will say that when there's caffeine in our system, um, it creates... It releases hormones which actually make it more difficult to feel our interoceptive sensations. There's a way in which the, the adrenaline and the cortisol and things, they, they numb our bodies. And so my sense is that as well as the kind of drive towards productivity and getting stuff done and all the reasons people take coffee, I think that there's a, there's a way in which it also numbs us somewhat against what we're experiencing moment to moment.
23. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  Yeah.
24. JMJonny Miller
  Um, and people will, will notice that, like, if maybe if they stop taking coffee, they might start to feel things again that maybe they've been not wanting to feel for a while.
25. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  Yeah, it's interesting. I, I love a cup of coffee as much as the next person. Um, but if I'm drinking too much, I just feel it all going up into my head. Not the coffee. I feel I experience the world much more through my head-
26. JMJonny Miller
  Yeah
27. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  ... and I'm less grounded.
28. JMJonny Miller
  Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.
29. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
  Um, and I think... I could be wrong. Maybe it's my childhood memory, but I, I don't think there was this kind of-
30. JMJonny Miller
  Mm

Episode duration: 1:43:18

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Nervous system as the lens: common signs you’re in survival mode

Rethinking anxiety: constriction, underlying emotions, and mislabeling excitement

Three core skills: interoception, self-regulation, emotional fluidity

Triggers in relationships: hyperarousal vs hypoarousal and the window of tolerance

What it means to be ‘in your body’: training interoception with APE

Predictive processing and somatic markers: catching reactivity early

Emotional debt, allostatic load, and completing the stress cycle (impala example)

Movement and environment as regulation: co-regulation, green space, and the ‘cathedral effect’

Bottom-up tools for urban stress: humming, breath, stretching, and peripheral vision

Top-down vs bottom-up (and outside-in): stacking approaches + the self-regulation paradox

Are emotions stored in the body? Smooth-muscle ‘latches,’ pre-verbal trauma, and bypassing

Working with anger: clean boundaries vs defensive aggression, and practical discharge methods

Grief, cold water, and the practice of letting go: from tragedy to aliveness

Societal nervous system clues: cold-plunge boom, caffeine culture, and rebuilding recovery rhythms

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