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Dr Rangan ChatterjeeDr Rangan Chatterjee

Neuroscientist: If You Feel THIS, You're Living the Wrong Life (Unlock The One You're Meant For)

This episode is brought to you by: WHOOP: Visit https://join.whoop.com/livemore to get up to 10% off all memberships until December 19th BON CHARGE: Save 25% off sitewise until 31st December https://boncharge.com VIVOBAREFOOT: Get 15% off your first order https://bit.ly/4iG2II4 What is intuition? What happens when we die? And, how does trauma get stored in our bodies? These are just a few of the fascinating themes I explore in today’s episode with returning guest, Dr Tara Swart. Tara is a neuroscientist, a former medical doctor & psychiatrist, a lecturer at MIT, an executive coach and author of 2 books, including her very latest The Signs: The New Science of How to Trust Your Instincts In this episode, Tara shares her own personal story about love, loss, and learning to trust herself again, after the death of her husband, Robin. This life changing experience left her questioning her deepest beliefs as a scientist, when in the midst of her grief, she started noticing unusual signs that she felt - she was unable to ignore. At first, she was sceptical, but these moments gradually helped her reconnect with her intuition in ways she never expected. In our conversation, we explore: - What intuition really is and how to start accessing it again - The gut-brain connection, and how emotions, trauma, and even grief can be stored (and released) in the body. - The practical tools and techniques that helped Tara - and can help you - rediscover your own intuition, including journaling, creative practices and nature - How to gently challenge your beliefs and open yourself to possibility (even if, like Tara, you’re sceptical at first). - Reflections on what science can and can’t explain - and why sometimes, believing in something greater (be it love, the universe, or connection itself) can be a healing force. - How to help your children (or yourself!) grow up with a stronger trust in their inner wisdom, without fear or ridicule. We also talk about the disconnection that many of us feel in the modern world, the transformative power of nature and the many different ways in which humans try to make sense of death. This is a raw, honest and thought-provoking conversation that I’m certain will leave you feeling inspired and eager to rediscover your own inner wisdom. #feelbetterlivemore Connect with Tara: Website https://www.taraswart.com/ Instagram https://www.instagram.com/drtaraswart/ Twitter https://twitter.com/TaraSwart Facebook https://www.facebook.com/TheSourceDrTaraSwart/ Tara’s books: The Signs: The New Science of How to Trust Your Instincts US https://amzn.to/4901bZW UK https://amzn.to/3Yg4TbL The Source: The Secrets of the Universe, the Science of the Brain US https://amzn.to/44hFqlJ UK https://amzn.to/48CLF4Y #feelbetterlivemore #feelbetterlivemorepodcast ------- Order MAKE CHANGE THAT LASTS. US & Canada version https://amzn.to/3RyO3SL, UK version https://amzn.to/3Kt5rUK ----- Follow Dr Chatterjee at: Website: https://drchatterjee.com/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/drchatterjee Twitter: https://twitter.com/drchatterjeeuk Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/drchatterjee/ Newsletter: https://drchatterjee.com/subscription DISCLAIMER: The content in the podcast and on this webpage is not intended to constitute or be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Never disregard professional medical advice or delay in seeking it because of something you have heard on the podcast or on my website.

Dr. Rangan ChatterjeehostDr Tara Swartguest
Dec 17, 20251h 22mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 0:27

    Why modern life disconnects us from intuition (and what intuition really is)

    1. RC

      It's pretty clear that modern life is disconnecting us from so many truly important things.

    2. TS

      Mm-hmm.

    3. RC

      One of the things it's disconnected us from is our intuition.

    4. TS

      Mm.

    5. RC

      So I want us to start off by asking you what is intuition-

    6. TS

      Mm-hmm

    7. RC

      ... and what are some signs that we can look out for in our own life that might indicate we're disconnected from our own?

  2. 0:27 – 2:29

    The body keeps wisdom: trauma, serotonin, fascia—and embodied intuition

    1. TS

      Okay. So intuition, I've come to call it hidden wisdom, because you can't recall everything you've experienced in your life, but you pick up life lessons, and you lay down patterns of behavior and pattern recognition from those memories that you're not sort of conscious of. And I think I would've said to you before that, um, through the process called Hebbian learning, these patterns get pushed deeper and deeper into the brain, into the limbic system, the brain stem, the spinal cord, and even into the gut neurons, and that's why it's often called gut instinct, right? Um, but there's new evidence through, through the serotonin hypothesis that shows that trauma doesn't only exist in the PTSD circuits of the brain. Through the action of serotonin, your blood products, your plasma, and your blood, the capillaries are constricted or dilated by the serotonin, and that changes the nature of nutrients and oxygen going into the tissues of your muscles, your fascia. And so the hypothesis says that that's one way that trauma is stored in the body. You know, Bessel van der Kolk's work-

    2. RC

      Mm-hmm

    3. TS

      ... The Body Keeps the Score. So the new hypothesis is that hidden wisdom or intuition is also stored in, in patterns that are held in the tissues of your body. So it's a bit like saying, you know, your mind isn't just in your brain, it's embodied, it's everywhere.

    4. RC

      Mm-hmm.

    5. TS

      And for example, if you practice yoga, you would y- understand that really well. Um, so yeah, just like trauma can be stored in the body, intuition can be stored in the mind, the brain, and the body.

    6. RC

      And in terms of the things that we can look out for in our own life-

    7. TS

      Mm-hmm

    8. RC

      ... that might indicate-

    9. TS

      Mm-hmm

    10. RC

      ... we're not accessing our intuition as much as we might want to-

    11. TS

      Mm-hmm

    12. RC

      ... are there any things that we can look out for to go, "Actually, you know, I struggle to make a decision. I'm constantly stressed," or whatever it might be-

    13. TS

      Mm

    14. RC

      ... you know, what would you say are signs that people can use themselves to try and sort of figure that out?

  3. 2:29 – 4:10

    Signs you’re cut off from intuition: overthinking, rigid logic, repeated patterns, brain fog

    1. TS

      So I think there's a few ways I could approach this. One is, if you keep repeating the same kind of, um, you know, patterns in your decision-making and your behavior, in your relationship dynamics, then you're probably not evolving your intuition and learning from potential mistakes. I think another thing, 'cause I talked about yoga being the union of the mind and the body, is that we're very cut off at the neck, and we, you know-

    2. RC

      Mm

    3. TS

      ... very much separate our mind and our body. So if you're overthinking, if you're anxious, if you're very, you know, rigid in your thinking, if you rely way too much on logic and rationality when it, you know, feels wrong in your gut kind of thing, I think those are really good signs. And you mentioned stress, so of course, because of the gut-brain connection, if our gut microbiome isn't in good condition, that can actually cloud access to our intuition and, and lead to what's called brain fog, and that's like a, a two-way thing.

    4. RC

      Yeah. When I think about stress, and I think about intuition, I think about a relationship that perhaps goes both ways. So when you're chronically stressed, of course-

    5. TS

      Mm

    6. RC

      ... it's very hard to-

    7. TS

      Mm

    8. RC

      ... look inwards and access-

    9. TS

      Mm

    10. RC

      ... that deep wisdom.

    11. TS

      Yeah.

    12. RC

      And at the same time, if you're not accessing your inner wisdom enough, it's probably gonna lead to more stress in your life.

    13. TS

      I think it leads to, like, a lack of direction and sense of purpose.

    14. RC

      Mm.

    15. TS

      Um, so for example, I always kind of prided myself on my intuition, and I would make my biggest life decisions based on my intuition. But up until a few years ago, that was still very much something that I thought was only in my head.

    16. RC

      Mm.

  4. 4:10 – 5:53

    Grief as a rupture—and a reconnection: nature, movement, and ancient grieving practices

    1. TS

      It was only after my husband passed away that I really felt like I couldn't trust myself. I couldn't trust my decision-making. I didn't have access to that voice anymore, that I had to find, like, a different way of operating. And, you know, the first thing that... It wasn't a choice, it just happened, is that, you know, I, I'm very lucky with the amount of support I have. So I got the psychological safety that I needed from my community. But I started spending a lot of time in nature, and I believe that that's the way I reconnected with my intuition and realized that it's not just a mental thing, it's a physical thing, too. So any kind of physical activity, l- like walking, yoga. And you know how I love to go back to ancient wisdom about everything. I was literally, um, Googling things like how did, how did humans rely on their instincts in Paleolithic times [laughs] and is art what makes us human. So I, you know, enjoyed that part of the research. And so our ancestors, they didn't have spare resources for d- for doing things for fun. They had to use all of their resources for survival. So basically food, shelter, and reproduction. So why did they drum, dance, hum, make cave paintings? There must be something about that that's crucial to, to our survival. And in some ancient cultures, like in ancient Greeks, when they bury their dead, they wail and beat their chests. So I'm, I'm assuming that's actually a good way of dealing with grief, 'cause one of the things I realized as well with grief is I had amazing talking therapy, but it's only when I started having body realignment therapy and craniosacral therapy that it accelerated-

    2. RC

      Mm

    3. TS

      ... my healing.

  5. 5:53 – 8:35

    Science vs ancient knowing: what if unprovable experiences still matter?

    1. RC

      Yeah. It's so interesting. You mentioned ancient wisdom, and earlier on, right at the start of this conversation, you said, "The new hypothesis is..." And I thought, "Okay, I'm gonna come back to that."Because is it truly a new hypothesis, or is science just trying its very best to explain what all of our ancestors have known-

    2. TS

      [laughs]

    3. RC

      ... for tens of thousands of years?

    4. TS

      I mean, I can just give a one-word answer to that. [laughs]

    5. RC

      [laughs] So... Yeah, but-

    6. TS

      Yeah

    7. RC

      ... do you, do you know what I mean? I mean, what, what's, what's your take on how I framed that? Because there's some beautiful things in the start of the book. This point really deeply, deeply resonates with me in how I see the world.

    8. TS

      Mm-hmm.

    9. RC

      You put here, "It also made me question whether only things that can be proven scientifically are important as part of the human experience."

    10. TS

      Yeah. Oh, that's given me goosebumps 'cause I'll tell you where that came from. So within the first couple of weeks of Robin dying, I had a neighbor who's, who had lost his partner five years previously, and we d- we didn't really talk about it much, but obviously I was searching. So I said, "Is it okay to ask you something about, you know, death and grief?" And he said, "Sure." Um, and I said, "Do you think it's possible to get communication with them after they've passed?" And he got quite agitated and said, "Absolutely not," and then said, "If it were, everyone would be talking about it." And I think even though I was in acute grief at the time, I remember thinking, "Well, I can't accept that it's not possible just because everyone's not talking about it. That doesn't make sense to me." And so then I mentioned it to a few people, and everyone that I spoke to had some kind of experience of sensing a presence or, you know, receiving a sign from a lost loved one. So I, I just thought that was interesting at first. Um, and then as I went on my journey of receiving signs, um, I was able to step back as a neuroscientist and kind of watch what was happening to me and thinking, "This is quite interesting. I wonder if I'll find something that will actually, could actually help other people."

    11. RC

      Mm.

    12. TS

      'Cause I had no intention of ever sharing my private story. Um, it was only if I felt like I, I learnt something with the benefit of hindsight that could help. And then, of course, what has happened is, because I'm known for being a scientist and a doctor, and it's such a human and primal experience and, you know, questioning the nature of life, death, and birth, that it's had this phenomenal reaction.

  6. 8:35 – 18:32

    “Signs” after death: robins, repeating numbers, meaning-making—and skepticism

    1. RC

      Yeah. Just for people who've perhaps not heard some of those other conversations-

    2. TS

      Mm

    3. RC

      ... when you say signs-

    4. TS

      Mm

    5. RC

      ... what, what, can you just elaborate what you mean when you say you've been asking for signs?

    6. TS

      Yeah. So, um, my husband's name was Robin, but for many people, seeing a robin is often a sign from a lost loved one. White feathers, repeating numbers, um, different things for different people. But I basically, out of desperation, consulted a couple of mediums after my husband died, and I was very skeptical, and anything that I thought could've been researched on the internet or social media, I, I was sort of, I wouldn't give them the credit for. But then it just occurred to me that if it's possible to have, you know, open this channel of communication with someone that's passed away, that I should be able to do it myself 'cause this was my person. Um, and because I had a few friends who said that they'd received signs from lost loved ones, I obv- obviously wanted to receive signs. Um, and at first, you know, I think I was overthinking it, and I was, you know, just hoping for things and, and looking and, but, you know, not really getting them. I did see a lot of robins, and then there was just a point where I realized that it would make sense for him to communicate with me through numbers because he wrote a, like a m- a mathematical report, and he was very, very obsessed with the Fibonacci sequence. So then the sorts of, you know, number signs that I would get became more frequent, more timely, more exact. And now I don't ask for specific things anymore. I just, I notice things, and I think, "Oh, that was from him."

    7. RC

      If I just zoom out for a moment, Tara. We're, we're talking about you being able to communicate or receive communication from your husband, Robin, who has died. So there's gonna be some people, I imagine, listening-

    8. TS

      Mm

    9. RC

      ... going, "Wait a minute. Hold on. Like, you've got a medical degree, you've got a neuroscience degree. You know how the brain works, and you're also trying to tell me that you're getting signs from your husband."

    10. TS

      Yeah.

    11. RC

      For the skeptic who's listening-

    12. TS

      Mm

    13. RC

      ... what would you say to them?

    14. TS

      Um, that even though I'm a neuroscientist and a medical doctor, I'm a human being that's been through a life-changing experience that I obviously needed to make sense of, and I wanted to fully heal and not be, feel bitter and, you know, sort of let grief rule the, the rest of my life. Um, and like I said, I did step back as a neuroscientist and watch the journey that I went on. But the number of stories I have, many of which are in the book, it's, it's, it's too much for me to explain away by coincidence. And there's just a lot of stuff that we don't know. You know, a- again, the ancient civilizations believed in souls or the afterlife or reincarnation, um, and ancestor worship and communication with their, from their ancestors and things. So I think I, I was just like, "Why not try this and see what happens and see if it makes sense for you?" Um, and at first, it brought me comfort, you know, in the early days.Later, it, it brought me guidance, but you could say that was me accessing my own intuition, and that's okay, too. And now it actually, like, brings me happiness. So, and, you know, it's not harming me or anyone else, and in fact [laughs] I've been overwhelmed by how much it's helped so many people, um, that, you know, of course there'll be skeptics, and that's fine. You know, I, I... It was a huge risk for me to write this book and go out on podcasts and say that I receive signs from my dead husband. But, and, you know, I am a risk-taker. That's one of the things he said he liked about me. But I am-- I was so, like, so not worried about putting this book out there because I'm so connected to myself, and I trust myself and my instincts and my intuition so much, that I just, I just did it.

    15. RC

      Yeah.

    16. TS

      And I thought, you know, it could have had a really bad response. But it's been, like, more than I could have dreamed-

    17. RC

      Yeah

    18. TS

      ... in a good way. [laughs]

    19. RC

      There's a key point there for me, which... It even goes beyond the message in this book. You said that because you're so connected to yourself and your desires and who you are and how you wanna live-

    20. TS

      Mm

    21. RC

      ... the response to the book actually doesn't matter.

    22. TS

      Mm.

    23. RC

      I, and I, I get that more than you, you could possibly believe, right?

    24. TS

      Yeah.

    25. RC

      It's, it's a realization I've come to over the last years. It, it's okay if people think differently to me.

    26. TS

      Yeah.

    27. RC

      There's eight billion people on the planet.

    28. TS

      Yeah, yeah.

    29. RC

      How arrogant would it be of me to believe that-

    30. TS

      [laughs] Everyone else, yeah

  7. 18:32 – 20:03

    Freedom after brush-with-death: near-death experiences, terminal lucidity, and awe

    1. RC

      You mentioned near-death experiences there, and you reference, I think, is it Bruce Grayson-

    2. TS

      Mm-hmm

    3. RC

      ... in the book? The h- doctor who's spent years-

    4. TS

      Yeah

    5. RC

      ... actually researching them and documenting-

    6. TS

      50 years

    7. RC

      ... them. Yeah, it's incredible.

    8. TS

      Yeah.

    9. RC

      And, um, I think you shared some of his research in the book where he, he basically was saying that... And this is where whether you believe in near-death experiences or not, it doesn't really matter because he's saying that people who've had near-death experiences, they live their life with a sense of freedom-

    10. TS

      Yeah

    11. RC

      ... and calm, and they're happy to take risks.

    12. TS

      Mm.

    13. RC

      They're not as scared to fail anymore because they see the world differently. Their perception has changed.

    14. TS

      Yeah.

    15. RC

      And would you say that that's what these signs have done for you? It's changed the way you relate to life.

    16. TS

      It absolutely has, and I think what's really interesting about near-death experiences is that simply by learning about them, you can get some of the same benefits that people get from having had that experience themselves. And that's, you know, a big part of the reason I wanted to write the book. That if it's just the stories of other people that I've shared in the book or my own story that people read or listen to, and that helps them to see the world maybe from a slightly different perspective, maybe, you know, notice and appreciate beauty and nature more, um, connect more with people, then, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, that's, um, how I feel and what... how I would love people to feel.

  8. 20:03 – 26:36

    Community, collective unconscious, and synchronicity—and the belief that matters most: love

    1. RC

      I really like the chapter on community and tribes towards-

    2. TS

      Mm

    3. RC

      ... the end of the book.

    4. TS

      Mm.

    5. RC

      And I'd love to talk a little bit about that. There's so many elements you cover in that. One thing you write about is the collective unconscious.

    6. TS

      Mm.

    7. RC

      What is the collective unconscious, and how does it relate to what we're talking about?

    8. TS

      So this is Carl Jung, the psychologist's sort of theory about the fact that since the beginning of humanity, there are some shared constructs that we will all experience, namely birth, life, and death. And because of that, that there are inherited brain structures and genes that we all have the same type of, and that that potentially means that there's a sort of cosmic soup or force, you know, where things that we're all aware of exist, and that, you know, we all have-- we're all tapped into that in a way. Um, and he created archetypes to try to explain that. So, I mean, I think he was completely visionary. You know, he talked about, um, synchronicities as meaningful coincidences and, and these are just some of the conversations that I'm sort of trying to start up again and revisit. And maybe now that science has progressed so much, there's-- there might be, you know, other ways of looking at that. And at the moment, the research on near-death experiences, terminal lucidity, and dark retreats are the closest that we can get to that. Um, so I think as a doctor, terminal lucidity's, like, super interesting. Um, that's basically when somebody whose brain is irreversibly damaged, as, as far as we understand it in modern science or, like, dementia is a classic example, suddenly becomes completely lucid towards the end of their life. So it goes from not recognizing their own children to having a completely like they used to before conversation with their children. Uh, it usually means the person's about to pass away. There are theories that say, you know, is this a surge of neurotransmitters? But the circuitry in the brain is- isn't supposed to be working at that time. So we don't know. Um, but things like that and near-death experiences show that when the brain is under duress, like at the border of life and death, that the mind or psyche or soul potentially can operate independently of physical matter, and that's also connected to the collective unconscious.

    9. RC

      I mean, it's, it's amazing when you, you hear about something like terminal lucidity and, you know, we know those cases, and we put it through the lens of many things we've been talking about today. This idea that, you know, the brain's not working anymore. You know, we can give you all these mechanisms. You know, there's a, uh, beta amyloid is accumulating.

    10. TS

      Mm.

    11. RC

      There's tau protein there.

    12. TS

      Mm.

    13. RC

      There's, you know, we, we can tell you why-

    14. TS

      Mm

    15. RC

      ... someone's brain or we can give a version of why we think someone's brain is not working-

    16. TS

      Yeah

    17. RC

      ... and then suddenly it seems to spark on.

    18. TS

      Mm.

    19. RC

      I would hope that that engenders a feeling of awe in most people.

    20. TS

      Mm.

    21. RC

      Like, for me, I hear that go, "Wow, what, what, what's actually going on there?"

    22. TS

      Yeah. And, you know, if it's not provoking your curiosity, then I guess the alternative is that all that you see materially is what life is, and that-- and you just go through that life. I don't want to live like that.

    23. RC

      No, and I think that's one of the reasons why people struggle with death so much-

    24. TS

      Mm

    25. RC

      ... I w- I, I think at least-

    26. TS

      Mm

    27. RC

      ... is if your life is just what you think it is, right? And you're here, you're this body, um, all you're concerned about is how do you get ahead in life, how do you make enough money, and then you suddenly die. It is hard to make sense of.

    28. TS

      Yeah.

    29. RC

      Do you know what I mean? It, it's, it's kind of interesting. I, I'm drawn back to-

    30. TS

      And it's sad.

  9. 26:36 – 33:13

    A modern ‘zeitgeist’: shared themes across podcasts, culture—and a brief ad break

    1. RC

      Yeah, it is. This, um, collective unconscious, I think there's many ways that I think about it. So I love music. I've been a musician my entire life. I'm obsessed with music-

    2. TS

      Mm

    3. RC

      ... and songwriting and lyrics and all kinds of things. And some of the best songwriters of all time will tell you that, "These are not my songs. The songs came through me. The songs were out there. I was just playing, and it came through me."

    4. TS

      Yeah.

    5. RC

      Even, I'm pretty sure, I mean, you know, we just had the summer of Oasis in the UK and around the world, right?

    6. TS

      [laughs]

    7. RC

      So Noel Gallagher is regarded by many people as one of Britain's greatest songwriters.

    8. TS

      Mm-hmm.

    9. RC

      Back in the late '90s when Noel was writing hit after hit for Oasis, so much so that they would just shove out these amazing hits like "Acquiesce" and "The Masterplan" on B sides because, well, we've released the album, they just... He, you know, he said in interviews that, "They were just falling out the sky. I wasn't doing anything. The songs were just falling out the sky" And look, I don't know Noel Gallagher. Um, I don't know if he's spiritual or not. I guess a lot of people would perceive that he, perhaps he's not, but perhaps he is.

    10. TS

      Mm.

    11. RC

      Perhaps he never talks about it in those terms. But if you believe that, "Actually, these are not my songs, I'm just here playing my guitar, I'm showing up every day, and there's stuff out there that's coming through me," it's pretty interesting, isn't it?

    12. TS

      Yeah. Very. Very. And I mean, this is really going out there now, but I have had some times, I just... I'll give you a concrete example of, of watching myself on a podcast that I was on, where I wasn't thinking about what I was saying. It was just, you know, pe- [laughs] I, I'm even cautious about using the word channeling-

    13. RC

      [laughs]

    14. TS

      ... but that's what it felt like. [laughs] Um, so yeah, and I just think that's because I've got an expanded, um, openness to what, you know, what could be, how, how the mind can work. So I'm, I'm more able to, to use-

    15. RC

      Yeah

    16. TS

      ... that word or think about it in that way. But, but I, I can tell you for sure, there have been times on podcasts when what I was saying was, was happening without me thinking about it.

    17. RC

      Yeah. This idea that there are ideas out there in the ether, which suddenly I'll start talking about, a podcaster in Canada will start talking about-

    18. TS

      Yeah

    19. RC

      ... a podcaster in... It's like we don't all read the same books. We don't all consume the same material.

    20. TS

      No.

    21. RC

      There's something going on.

    22. TS

      Yeah.

    23. RC

      I don't know. This podcast, literally, you've come in today talking about this stuff. Four days ago, Mo Gawdat was here. Mo, I didn't plan to talk to Mo about this.

    24. TS

      No.

    25. RC

      Mo ends up saying that you can prove with physics and maths that death is not the end.

    26. TS

      [laughs] I know.

    27. RC

      I mean, I was like, well, I actually don't believe death is the end. Um, but I don't know how to prove it with maths and physics.

    28. TS

      No.

    29. RC

      And then literally a few weeks before that, I spoke to the Zen master, um, Henry Shukman-

    30. TS

      Mm-hmm

  10. 33:13 – 35:43

    What the modern world broke: disconnection from self, others, nature, and the ‘greater’

    1. RC

      I started off this conversation by asking you, or, or by stating that the modern world seems to have disconnected us in many ways from so many things that are truly important.

    2. TS

      Mm-hmm.

    3. RC

      One of those things, of course, being intuition. What is it, do you think, about the modern world in particular that has started to disconnect us from ourselves?

    4. TS

      Let me start by saying what I think some of those forms of connection are. I, I think of them as connection to yourself, which is your intuition; connection to others, which is community; and connection to the planet or the universe, which is, you know, something to do with understanding that the environment is very important and that we are, you know, contributors to that, b- both positively and negatively. And then probably, you know, a sort of newer thing for me to say is connection to something greater, and that could be God, it could be the universe, source, whatever, you know, lost loved ones, whatever, you know, people believe in. And so one of the things I believe is that nature is a really important way to connect back to all of those things because humans have existed in the palette of nature for all time, and we see in some marginalized communities, like in the First Americans, that when they were displaced from their land and their food sources, like the kinds of plants and animals that roamed there, that broke them as people. And in the modern world, I think we've massively broken our own connection to nature. So like you said, the modern Western world, urbanized, um, rise of technology obviously, but, you know, that's really second only to the rise of, of the importance of logic and rationality over everything else. When you spend a lot of time in nature and you experience wonder and awe, it gives you a connection to the environment, [laughs] the planet, there's something greater. You know, when you spend time with people and you actually put your phone away and you actually look them in the eye, and they care about you and you care about them, that connects you to something.

    5. RC

      Mm.

    6. TS

      You know? And, and then I think this loss of sense of purpose, to me, is connected to trusting yourself and your intuition. So, you know, having a purpose, feeling like you've got some kind of, you know, direction that you're aware of, and for that purpose to be something that transcends just yourself as well.

    7. RC

      Yeah.

    8. TS

      They're all ways of reconnecting.

  11. 35:43 – 50:43

    Embodiment in practice: nature walks, 34 senses, art as a human need, and releasing trauma

    1. RC

      Yeah. Reading that chapter on nature in your latest book, you were describing how after Robin had died, you would go and walk in nature.

    2. TS

      Mm.

    3. RC

      Okay? And I think from recollection, you would build up the time-

    4. TS

      Mm

    5. RC

      ... that you spent. Initially, it was, you didn't wanna do anything, you didn't wanna do much-

    6. TS

      Mm

    7. RC

      ... but you started, and then you'd-

    8. TS

      Mm-hmm

    9. RC

      ... built up. And just to be clear, I'm, I'm absolutely not comparing a spouse dying to a parent dying. I think two completely different things.

    10. TS

      Mm-hmm.

    11. RC

      But just as you were talking there and relating it to purpose, I was drawn back to my own experience after my father died-

    12. TS

      Mm-hmm

    13. RC

      ... back in 2013.

    14. TS

      Mm.

    15. RC

      Because until then, I'd never really turned inwards.

    16. TS

      Mm.

    17. RC

      Everything was outwards in my life. And I remember in the months after Dad had died, I would go walking-

    18. TS

      Really?

    19. RC

      ... a lot in nature. Um, I probably wasn't thinking about intuition or anything. I was just trying to deal with something-

    20. TS

      Yeah

    21. RC

      ... I was finding incredibly difficult-

    22. TS

      Yeah

    23. RC

      ... at the time. And what's really interesting is-Dad dying for me was the very first time I asked myself the question, "Whose life are you actually living?" And I mean, I could give you a two-hour-

    24. TS

      [laughs]

    25. RC

      ... uh, sort of explanation or the simplistic explanation, which is I'm pretty sure that what I do today in terms of this podcast-

    26. TS

      Mm

    27. RC

      ... my books, what I try and advocate for in terms of health and happiness-

    28. TS

      Yeah

    29. RC

      ... I think you can directly relate, certainly with hindsight, back to those walks in nature I took after Dad died, which gave me the clarity-

    30. TS

      Mm

  12. 50:43 – 1:10:00

    How to rebuild intuition: journaling experiments, head–heart–gut alignment, and future-self guidance

    1. RC

      So if someone was to phone you or come to see you as a coach, Tara-

    2. TS

      Mm-hmm

    3. RC

      ... and say, "Dr. Swart, listen, I'm, I'm really struggling to trust myself. I don't know how to, I don't know how to access my intuition-

    4. TS

      Mm-hmm

    5. RC

      ... um, will you teach me how I can start?"

    6. TS

      Mm.

    7. RC

      What do you say to them?

    8. TS

      Um, well, what I do say to people [laughs] 'cause they do ask me this, is to start keeping a journal, um, particularly where you have a decision or a dilemma where your logic says one thing but your intuition says another. And, uh, you know, ke- let's keep it safe and low risk at first. Um, but let's say actually you ignore your gut and you go with your logic, well, journal about how that panned out and try to demonstrate to yourself that you could have trusted your gut. And then in the next low-risk sort of situation, go with your intuition even if your logic tells you not to, and see what happens, and journal about that, and let that pan out. Keep doing that for at least six months, I would say probably a year ideally, and read over your entries to see where your repeating patterns aren't serving you, and to show yourself that sometimes when you take a risk, it really works out for you. Um, there's also an exercise in the book that I really love, um, to help people try to align that sort of head, heart, and gut. It's called the unfurling exercise, and it's basically you sort of, you know, you have a, a, a question in your mind or a decision to make, and you take five deep breaths, put your hands on your head, and ask your logic to give you the answer. Then you take five deep breaths, put your hands on your heart, and ask your emotions to give you your answer. And then you take five deep breaths, put your hands on your belly, and ask your gut or your intuition to give you the answer. Now, if they're all aligned, that's great, isn't it? But if they're not, again, you know, journaling and learning from that. And then I think one of the reasons that people struggle with this is because when you're in your own situation emotionally, it's very hard to get perspective. So sometimes I say, "You know, what would you say to your brother or your best friend?"

    9. RC

      Mm.

    10. TS

      Because it's, it's... we're all great at giving advice to our friends [laughs] but, you know, like can't give it to ourself. But one exercise I do that can, you know, feel very emotional, I've often cried when I've done it and I've shared it with a few friends who've said they cried as well, is myself in seven years' time. So, you know, I'd be sitting here and I'd say, "I'm Tara, this is how old I am, this is what I'm wearing, this is the thing I'm struggling with. Give me some advice." And then I would stand up, walk seven steps forward, and turn round and say, "I'm now Tara, seven years older than I am. Describe what I'm wearing," and then ask that Tara the question, and then just, like, go with the first thing that comes to your mind.

    11. RC

      Mm.

    12. TS

      And the reason that that's quite an emotional thing is because that's actually come from you.

    13. RC

      Mm.

    14. TS

      But, you know, if, if you didn't step outside of yourself in that way, you wouldn't trust that you actually know the answer.

    15. RC

      Yeah. Just a simple way of getting out of your head-

    16. TS

      Mm

    17. RC

      ... or, or putting you in a different, well, quite literally a different physical space. You're actually-

    18. TS

      Yeah, yeah

    19. RC

      ... moving away from where you are.

    20. TS

      Yeah.

    21. RC

      That's pr- quite powerful, isn't it?

    22. TS

      Yeah. There's another exercise that's similar that also works, which is, I think it's in The Source, and I called it creative mentoring, which is that you think of three people that you admire and trust. They could be people that you know, they could be historical characters or people that, you know, have passed on. And you ask them each to answer your dilemma. And you, you know, you go into a great deal of depth and say like, you know, you describe the person and their name and their age and what they're like, and then you say, "Okay, I'm asking you," like, Winston Churchill or whatever. [laughs] And then, then you, you know, you go through that process of describing the other person so that you're kind of, you're more, like, in their-

    23. RC

      Yeah

    24. TS

      ... yeah.

    25. RC

      So you've been a fan of journaling for years.

    26. TS

      Mm-hmm.

    27. RC

      Um, and it's quite interesting that when you're describing one of the ways in which we can start to figure out how to trust ourselves more-

    28. TS

      Mm

    29. RC

      ... is to basically, I guess, build up that evidence for ourselves-

    30. TS

      Yeah

  13. 1:10:00 – 1:22:26

    Raising intuitive kids, speaking openly about grief, and a final challenge: ask for a sign

    1. RC

      Wow. I'm a parent, Tara, okay? Uh, you've met my children-

    2. TS

      Mm

    3. RC

      ... on multiple occasions. If I would like them to grow up-

    4. TS

      Mm

    5. RC

      ... with as much access to this hidden wisdom-

    6. TS

      Mm-hmm

    7. RC

      ... as possible-

    8. TS

      Mm

    9. RC

      ... what are the kinds of things that you would recommend I do with them?

    10. TS

      So I'm gonna actually s- start answering this with a bit of a counter. So I think often the reason that people are not able to trust their intuition is because they were ridiculed as children.

    11. RC

      [inhales]

    12. TS

      So, you know, if they had, uh, like a feeling about something that they wanted and peop- like e- exactly what you're saying. Like, "Oh, don't say that. No, we don't do that." You know, that kind of thing. It all gets schooled out of you and parented out of you. And, um, so I would say using, making sure you're saying like, "How do you feel about that?" as much as you say, "What do you think of that?" Um, you mi-

    13. RC

      Yeah, I like that.

    14. TS

      Yeah. Maybe using phrases like, you know, "What does your heart say?" Or, "What does your gut say?" You know, just to like introduce that language, but also obviously to do like physical stuff, uh, exercise with them. Um, yeah, just really... You know, demonstrating when you use your gut-

    15. RC

      Mm-hmm

    16. TS

      ... you know, to, to do something, but just really getting them to tap into that. Like, "What do you feel is the right thing to do? What do you feel is the best thing to do?"

    17. RC

      Yeah.

    18. TS

      "What, what does your heart want to do?"

    19. RC

      Yeah. Cool.

    20. TS

      And then also teaching them to, uh, you know, run that by logic. You know, I think you can then say, "Does that make sense to do that"-

    21. RC

      Mm-hmm

    22. TS

      ... sort of thing. Um, and, you know, encouraging them to have those conversations with their friends as well and just see different perspectives.

    23. RC

      Yeah. This idea of hidden wisdom, you c- you can even look at it really simply where if you go into a room where there has just been an argument-

    24. TS

      Mm.

    25. RC

      Right? But you didn't witness the argument-

    26. TS

      Mm-hmm

    27. RC

      ... but there's tension between the two people in there-

    28. TS

      Yeah

    29. RC

      ... you can feel it.

    30. TS

      Yeah.

Episode duration: 1:22:26

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