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Dr Rangan ChatterjeeDr Rangan Chatterjee

Neuroscientist: Why Trying To Eliminate Anxiety WON'T SOLVE Your Problems! | Dr. Russell Kennedy

If you ever feel anxious, whether that’s a low-level worry, a sudden fear, or full-on panic, can you sense where it’s coming from in your body? Perhaps your chest feels tight, or your gut feels uneasy. Or, perhaps, you have no idea.

Dr. Rangan ChatterjeehostDr. Russell Kennedyguest
Jun 14, 20232h 29mWatch on YouTube

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Partial transcript

  1. 0:00 – 1:41

    Why “thinking your way out” misses the root: the alarm–anxiety cycle

    1. RC

      Anxiety is on the rise these days massively-

    2. RK

      Yeah

    3. RC

      ... all over the world.

    4. RK

      Yeah.

    5. RC

      But I think one of your core messages is that the way we're trying to deal with anxiety is not getting to the root cause.

    6. RK

      Yeah.

    7. RC

      So what are we doing wrong?

    8. RK

      Well, I think we're addressing the mind. You know? So I have this concept in anxiety that I call the alarm anxiety cycle. So I think there's this state of alarm that's stored in our body and in our mind too, 'cause you can't separate the mind and the body, but it's stored from old traumas that are unresolved. And this alarm is in us, and the mind reflects that trauma, 'cause the mind is a compulsive meaning making, make sense machine. So when it feels this old trauma in our body, it's gotta do something with it. So it makes up a, um, a what if, a warning, a worst case scenario to kinda make sense of the angst that we're feeling. And then we believe that trauma, we believe that worry, 'cause we made it up, and then that creates more alarm in our body, and then it just gets in this cycle, this alarm anxiety cycle. So we're trying to treat the symptom, which is the thoughts, which is the worry, as the cause. And as you know, you know, if someone has a, um, an infection and they have a fever, we can give them acetaminophen, it'll bring down their fever, but it does nothing for the underlying cause. So it's really about how do we find the true underlying cause of anxiety, which I believe is this state of alarm that's in our body from old unresolved trauma. And that's how we fix it at its root cause. Instead of just dancing around trying to think better. If you think better, you will feel better, but it's really difficult to think in opposition to how your body feels. It's just a constant uphill battle.

  2. 1:41 – 4:13

    Reframing anxiety as “alarm” and defining when it becomes a problem

    1. RC

      Okay. Couple of things there. Anxiety alarm cycle, right?

    2. RK

      Mm-hmm.

    3. RC

      That sounds like two separate things.

    4. RK

      It is two-

    5. RC

      Anxiety and alarm

    6. RK

      ... yes.

    7. RC

      Now, I think-

    8. RK

      Yeah

    9. RC

      ... when many of us think about anxiety, we think about one thing.

    10. RK

      Yes.

    11. RC

      I'm feeling anxious right now.

    12. RK

      Yeah.

    13. RC

      But you're saying that there's, that there are these two components.

    14. RK

      Yeah.

    15. RC

      So I want to dive into that.

    16. RK

      Okay.

    17. RC

      Be- before we do that though, can we just sort of understand what is anxiety?

    18. RK

      Okay.

    19. RC

      Are anxiety rates truly going up, or are we just saying that we've got more anxiety? I mean, how-

    20. RK

      Mm

    21. RC

      ... how do you see this problem?

    22. RK

      Well, I think we are more aware of anxiety. As, as the stigma for mental health issues comes down, we're more likely to be able to say to our friend, "Yeah, I'm feeling anxious." And I don't, I don't actually like the term anxiety. I prefer the term alarm, because if you're out for lunch with a friend of yours and you said, "I'm feeling anxious," if they don't have anxiety, they probably don't know what you mean. But if you say, "Hey, I'm really feeling alarmed today," everybody's been alarmed, so you can relate to what this other person's saying.

    23. RC

      I like that. And, and also... Well, let's just also expand out this continuum, right? Because w- at what point do we say we've got anxiety?

    24. RK

      Mm.

    25. RC

      Because, let's say, I don't know, I'm nervous before having a podcast conversation-

    26. RK

      Sure. Of course

    27. RC

      ... for example, right?

    28. RK

      Of course. Yeah.

    29. RC

      I could say colloquially, "I'm a little bit anxious-

    30. RK

      Yeah

  3. 4:13 – 5:54

    Two components: anxious thoughts in the mind vs. alarm in the body

    1. RC

      So let's talk about this anxiety in our minds-

    2. RK

      Mm-hmm

    3. RC

      ... and alarm in our bodies.

    4. RK

      Sure.

    5. RC

      Because I think this really gets to the core, I think, of your, of your message-

    6. RK

      Yeah

    7. RC

      ... that it's these two separate things that we conflate together?

    8. RK

      Yep. It, it, that's exactly what it is. And when we conflate the two together and we don't see them as separate entities, it's very hard to treat it. So we can treat it through the alarm. You know, one of the ways of, is finding the alarm in your body. In me, it's in my solar plexus. Putting my hand over it, breathing into it. And just to go r- woo right off the top, I believe that that alarm is my younger self, is my wounded self that watched my schizophrenic father just sort of slowly collapse until he eventually committed suicide. And then there's the anxious thoughts of the mind that go along with this feeling of alarm in the body. So if we can separate them into two entities, we have a way of breaking the cycle, but if we don't see it as two separate entities and just try and treat the thoughts, the little analogy that I draw is, like, if you're in a rowboat and there's a hole in the rowboat, it's filling up with water. You can bail water out and drop that water level down a little bit to make yourself feel better, but unless you go under, unless you patch that hole in the hull, which is fixing the alarm in your body, you're always gonna be bailing water. So it's really the separate. The anxious thoughts of the mind are different than the alarm in the body, but they, they energize each other. So if we can learn how to separate the two, see them as two separate entities, and, and a- attack them both, we can break the cycle. And when we break the cycle, then we start really feeling like we have control over the cycle rather than the cycle controlling us.

  4. 5:54 – 12:19

    A workplace example: how to stop the story spiral and “go into the body”

    1. RC

      So let's take a real-life example.

    2. RK

      Okay.

    3. RC

      Maybe that might be helpful for people to sort of-

    4. RK

      Sure

    5. RC

      ... think their way through or feel [laughs] their way through this- ... anxiety alarm cycle that you're talking about. So I don't know. Let's take, if I think about practice and the sort of patients I've seen over the years. I don't know. Let's imagine a 42-year-old lady-

    6. RK

      Okay

    7. RC

      ... who's at work in her office-

    8. RK

      Right

    9. RC

      ... and is feeling really, really anxious about-

    10. RK

      Mm-hmm

    11. RC

      ... their, their job role, about the way that their boss is treating them perhaps.

    12. RK

      Yep.

    13. RC

      And they're struggling to function-

    14. RK

      Yeah

    15. RC

      ... because of that anxiety. Is that, does that work for you, that example?

    16. RK

      Absolutely. Yeah.

    17. RC

      All right. So let's, for that individual-

    18. RK

      Yep

    19. RC

      ... how would you talk them through this?

    20. RK

      So I would say try to move into your body. Like, find the alarm in your body because what happens is when we're feeling, quote-unquote, anxious, we tend to attribute the cause to our mind. Our mind goes, and our mind is trying to solve it as well, but it's an unsolvable riddle because the reason you're anxious is there is no obvious answer. If there was an obvious answer, you wouldn't be anxious. So go into your body. Find, where do I feel this? I know I'm feeling anxious right now. Where do I feel that in my body? Rather than going into your head, 'cause as soon as you go in ahead, you've lost the plot because you're just gonna stay in your head. It's just gonna get worse. It's very rare that all of a sudden your mind just goes, "Oh, well, here's the solution. I'm not anxious anymore."

    21. RC

      Well, okay, so I think this is such an important point.

    22. RK

      Okay.

    23. RC

      Right? What's, what does that mean, go into your body and not stay in your head? What, what does staying in your head look like? For that individual-

    24. RK

      Yeah

    25. RC

      ... what, what... You know, te- tell me what normally happens when people stay in their head.

    26. RK

      They, it just gets worse. So when, in your example, my boss is gonna fire me. My boss doesn't like me. My boss's wife doesn't even like me. I mean, I was over there for dinner three weeks ago, and they just hated me. So it just... So you see how it just goes.

    27. RC

      So stories.

    28. RK

      Like, it stacks. It stacks on top of each other, right?

    29. RC

      Okay. So stories. The, you know, we're putting meaning onto this.

    30. RK

      Absolutely. Absolutely.

  5. 12:19 – 17:04

    Finding the sensation: body scanning, emotional “signature,” and breath to regulate

    1. RC

      So if someone does that breathing practice-

    2. RK

      Yeah

    3. RC

      ... i- is, well, couple of things really. Number one, what is it doing-

    4. RK

      Yeah

    5. RC

      ... to the body when you do that?

    6. RK

      Yeah.

    7. RC

      And I guess following on from that, is that something people can do in the moment when they're feeling that alarm in their body?

    8. RK

      Yeah. Absolutely. And if you practice it when you're not ... This is the big thing with people. This is the people, difference between the people that heal and the people that just manage. If you practice it when you're not feeling anxious, if you start getting into a practice of even five minutes a day doing that when you're driving or just when you're sitting, just feeling your butt in the chair, feeling your, feeling your shoulders relax, feeling your jaw relax, giving yourself a felt sense that you're okay, and training that so when you, when you actually go into the game, when you go into that stressful situation, you've taught your autonomic nervous system this process that will relax it.

    9. RC

      Yeah. It's a bit like, I think there's a huge similarity here, but it's a bit like, I don't know, meditation. Right?

    10. RK

      Mm-hmm.

    11. RC

      For those people who engage with meditation regularly and it works for them, and I-

    12. RK

      Yeah

    13. RC

      ... fully appreciate that not everyone manages-

    14. RK

      Yeah

    15. RC

      ... meditation, at least not immediately when they're trying.

    16. RK

      That's true.

    17. RC

      Right?

    18. RK

      Yeah.

    19. RC

      Then it's not really about those 10 minutes of meditation. It is on one level, but if the other 23 and a half hours of your day, okay, sure, you're sleeping, but you know what I mean-

    20. RK

      Yeah, I know what you mean

    21. RC

      ... are full of stress-

    22. RK

      Yeah

    23. RC

      ... and reactivity-

    24. RK

      Yeah

    25. RC

      ... and pressure, it's kind of like, yeah, okay, it's great that you meditated for 10 minutes.

    26. RK

      Mm-hmm.

    27. RC

      But what we're hoping to do by the regular practice of the meditation is learn to just have that slight detachment. So in life when something stressful happens, can you just detach a little bit and, you know, be the observer?

    28. RK

      Yes.

    29. RC

      And-

    30. RK

      Yeah

  6. 17:04 – 24:33

    Why worry can be a form of avoidance—and learning to sit with discomfort

    1. RC

      ... what you are advocating for is something that actually is quite alien to much of Western culture.

    2. RK

      Totally.

    3. RC

      Where I see it with my kids now at school-

    4. RK

      Totally

    5. RC

      ... you know, everything is about the mind and thought and thinking.

    6. RK

      Mm-hmm.

    7. RC

      Right? That's been me for much of my life.

    8. RK

      Of course. Most of us.

    9. RC

      You know, which is, which is why I'm so drawn to silence and stillness and time without listening to stuff or looking at stuff.

    10. RK

      Mm-hmm.

    11. RC

      Right? It's been something that I think I've only managed to do or experience, I would say, over the past few years-

    12. RK

      Yeah

    13. RC

      ... after doing therapy and-

    14. RK

      Mm-hmm

    15. RC

      ... and working through various states.

    16. RK

      Yeah.

    17. RC

      Right? Because it's not easy when you're used to thinking all the time.

    18. RK

      Yeah.

    19. RC

      It's very hard to just sit there a- and try and be still.

    20. RK

      Because thinking becomes a way of avoiding. Here's, here's the way I think what happens, is that we develop this state of alarm in our body. We don't wanna, we don't wanna live there. We don't wanna feel that. So what we do instead is we go up into the worries of our mind. People say that worry doesn't do anything. It absolutely does do something. It takes us away from this pain, typically childhood, that's, that's stuck in our body, and then we're ruminating up in our heads because the more we can stay in our heads and dissociate into our heads, the less we have to go down and experience that old alarm that we don't even realize-

    21. RC

      Yeah

    22. RK

      ... is there most of the time.

    23. RC

      In your book, and I think in one of your Instagram posts, you talk about this idea that actually the body is experiencing your environment first.

    24. RK

      Mm-hmm.

    25. RC

      So the alarm is happening first-

    26. RK

      Yeah

    27. RC

      ... and then the mind gets involved to put a story on it.

    28. RK

      Yes, absolutely.

    29. RC

      Right?

    30. RK

      Without a doubt.

  7. 24:33 – 30:37

    Distraction, dopamine, and the “social engagement system” in a screen-driven world

    1. RC

      Right? So the, the culture, the way society is structured, the devices we have access to now, how much do you think that's playing a role in these rising rates of anxiety?

    2. RK

      Incredibly. I mean, it- we're a very dopamine-driven society now, right? Immediate gratification, and if you can go on your smartphone and visit, uh, you know, Thailand and, uh, Singapore and whatever in 10 seconds, it's very difficult for another human being to [laughs] be able to compete with that. And even more so in our kids. So we have this social engagement system that's in our brain. So eye contact, tone of voice, prosody of voice, which is kind of like the lilting nature of your voice, body language, facial expressions. These are all things like you and I right now, we're in the middle of this 'cause-

    3. RC

      Hmm

    4. RK

      ... we're reading each other, but the kids aren't getting this face-to-face. They're getting face-to-screen, and it's not maturing the social engagement system. And the social engagement system is what allows you to soothe other people but also soothe yourself. So we have a whole generation of kids growing up who don't get that social engagement system matured in, in their bo- So when they go off to university, they've been using their phone as a distraction. But once they go to university, the phone stops working, and a lot of them will collapse. So it's really, how can we get the most out of that social engagement system, which is basically facial expressions, eye contact. You know, when you're with your kids, really, you know, play a game around the table like, "What's my face doing right now? Am I angry? Am I happy? Am I sad?" Because we are wired, biologically wired for understanding faces, reading faces. There's a, a, a, a complex called pro- propagnosia, which is basically the inability to read faces, and it's from strokes and that kind of thing too. We're, we, we see faces in everything, and we're losing that with our kids because our kids aren't getting the face-to-face contact simply because the iPads and stuff are taking the time away. And they're getting more involved with the iPad because the iPad's exciting. You know? You're-

    5. RC

      Yeah

    6. RK

      ... when you're br- when you're young, you're absorbing m- uh, information so quickly, and you want to, but that's what you're originally talking about is overload, and we t- we're teaching our kids to overload their brains.

    7. RC

      I mean, given how prevalent rates of anxiety are now.

    8. RK

      Yeah.

    9. RC

      Right? Y- in your book, you've been very open about your own story.

    10. RK

      Mm-hmm.

    11. RC

      And w- w- I definitely wanna talk about that today. But you grew up in an era where there weren't these easy distraction tools.

    12. RK

      Mm-hmm.

    13. RC

      At least not in the same way, right?

    14. RK

      Totally. Yeah.

    15. RC

      Yet you're suffering f- or you have suffered with [laughs] really, um, paralyzing anxiety-

    16. RK

      Absolutely

    17. RC

      ... for much of your life.

    18. RK

      Absolutely.

    19. RC

      What would you forecast now then for 20 years' time, given that the early childhood years are so important-

    20. RK

      Right

    21. RC

      ... given how much stress parents are under these days-

    22. RK

      Yeah

    23. RC

      ... and that despite their best intentions, a lot of the time they're unable to give the kids the presence, the attention that they want to, and given the fact that anywhere you go now, you see kids' heads into smartphones-

    24. RK

      Yeah

    25. RC

      ... heads into iPads, what would your forecast be for rates of anxiety in 15 or 20 years when these kids become adults?

    26. RK

      Well, their anxiety rates are gonna go up, for sure. And another thing about therapy is a lot of therapy is almost this sort of semi-spiritual connection between therapist and patient. And if you haven't built that structure in your brain to be able to read other people, to be able to interact with other people, you're not gonna be able to respond to therapy that well either. So it's really gonna be this sort of snowball effect where we're not, we don't, we're not building the structures that would allow someone to connect. So we're gonna develop this society that's getting more and more disconnected, and we're seeing it now already. So it's like, how, how can we be more connected to our kids? Like, show, show your kids a lot of facial expressions. Show your kids a lot of touch, a lot of I love yous. I know this sounds very standard, but a lot of families don't get it. And it's very hard to give what you didn't get yourself.

    27. RC

      Yeah. This SES, this social engagement system-

    28. RK

      Yeah

    29. RC

      ... it's been eroded everywhere.

    30. RK

      Yeah.

  8. 30:37 – 41:47

    Parenting for safety: touch, eye contact, and “bridging” the next connection

    1. RC

      So that whole social engagement system piece that you're talking about, it's, it's really not getting nourished. Look, childhood is important, right? You're, you're making a strong case-

    2. RK

      Sure

    3. RC

      ... in your book, in your work, that actually how we develop as children, the trauma we experience or don't experience, the love, the eye contact, the presence we experience or, or, or don't experience, is hugely influential at determining what happens when we're adults, right?

    4. RK

      Yeah.

    5. RC

      So talking about parenting's always tricky because a lot of people, um, feel very guilty-

    6. RK

      Yeah

    7. RC

      ... right, when they hear and go, "Oh, wow, I didn't do that with my kids. I wish I'd done that with my kids." And just to be completely open, like, I- if I knew what I, what I know now-

    8. RK

      Sure

    9. RC

      ... when my kids were even younger, I would've parented differently. I think I've done a... I'd like to think I've done a pretty good job. I've certainly done the best that I can, and I'm continuing to try and improve things as I learn more. But certainly I could go back and go, "Wow, you know, had I known this, I would've done that very differently." Right? So-

    10. RK

      Yeah

    11. RC

      ... I don't think this is a, it's never about blaming parents, it's about empowering parents. But I guess the question I want to ask for, for, for young parents who, who are listening, Russell-

    12. RK

      Mm-hmm

    13. RC

      ... right? And are thinking, okay, w- and they're thinking, how can I best apply this to my kids so that they don't develop anxiety or addictions when they're older?

    14. RK

      Right.

    15. RC

      What would you say are some of the important things parents can do with their young children?

    16. RK

      Eye contact, touch, uh, lots of I love yous. There's this thing that I, I get parents to do. Uh, you can do it with young kids. Teenagers will revolt. But, uh, putting your hand over their heart and then putting your hand on their back and just staying there and just being with them. You know, I have two grandkids, and every time I see them, um, they only live 15 minutes away, so it's a lot. They call me Paco. That's [laughs] I don't know how I got this name, but that's what they call me, Paco. And it's like, I, I will say to them, and I, I, I do this with them. I put my hands over their heart and I say, "You know, Paco loves you, and Paco's here for you." One's five and one's three. But I've been doing this with A- with Abby, who's the older, the, the girl, um, since she's been, like, two or three years old. And the other night, uh, my, my d- [laughs] my daughter, uh, phones me up and she says, "You know what? [laughs] I was putting Abby to bed, and she said, 'I know Paco loves me, and I know Paco's here for me.'" And she's, you know, five. So I think just showing them that you're there for them is, and, and, and being there with eye contact, and touch is so important. You know, so much of our somatosensory cortex is devoted to our hands and our face. So if we can really use touch with our kids as well, it tends to soothe them. It tends to start building that social engagement system.

    17. RC

      For people who, who are not familiar with that term-

    18. RK

      Yeah

    19. RC

      ... what's the somatosensory cortex?

    20. RK

      So it, there's, there's a, a strip that goes down each side of our brain, and it's contralateral. So what I feel in my right knee will be felt in the left side of my brain. So there's a motor strip. So there's a part, if I wanna move my right hand, this part of the motor strip, which is just a strip of the brain, will light up, and it'll allow me to move my hand, right? And then the sensation strip is right beside it. So anything that touches my right hand will light up that sensation strip. So the motor strip's in front, and the sensation strip is behind it. And the more we can engage, like, our fingers and our face, and this is why I think tapping helps people, because there's so much real estate in your brain devoted to your hands and your face. So if you touch your face, you know. And sometimes what I'll do to people is I'll say, "Look, uh, cross your hands across the midline, and then just rub your cheeks. And I know this looks really creepy, uh, but rub your cheeks." Like, don't do it at the Tesco or whatever, but, you know-

    21. RC

      [laughs]

    22. RK

      ... just, just, uh, when you're alone, if you're, if you're struggling, if you're suffering. 'Cause this will bring you into the present moment, and when you're in the present moment, you can actually make some, some logical, reasonable decisions. But if you're in your head, and basically worry is always about the future, and trauma is always about the past, so we spend very little time in the present moment. And one thing I wanted to just go back to quickly about, um, kids is it's really important, I learned this from Gordon Neufeld, a developmental psychologist. It's really important, this concept called bridging. So when you drop your kid off at school or whatever, you say, "I'm really looking forward to watching that Lego movie with you later and having popcorn. I'm really looking forward to picking you up here at 3:30, and we're gonna go for ice cream." You always bridge the next connection. You never just say, "Hey, see you later. I'll, I'll pick you up at 3:30." There's always a bridge to the next connection, and something that they like.

    23. RC

      Okay, this is really interesting.

    24. RK

      Yeah.

    25. RC

      I've not heard-

    26. RK

      It's called bridging. It's-

    27. RC

      I've not, I've not heard this-

    28. RK

      ... a Gordon Neufeld concept

    29. RC

      ... in this context before.

    30. RK

      Yeah.

  9. 41:47 – 46:08

    Vagus nerve basics: why humming, chanting, and vibration can calm the system

    1. RC

      ... in the minutes leading up to sleep. And when I was reading your book last night and reading that section on the vagus nerve, I was like, oh, it just reminded me of how important this stuff is. So could you talk to me about the vagus nerve a little bit-

    2. RK

      Yeah

    3. RC

      ... and how nourishing our vagus nerve is important in helping us manage anxiety?

    4. RK

      Yeah. So the vagus nerve is the 10th cranial nerve. So it comes out of the brainstem, sort of the lowest part of the brain. And it runs down, uh, beside your throat, which is why, uh, chanting, singing, anything that, that creates some vibration- In your voice box, in your larynx will calm that vagus nerve. There's a branch of the nerve called the recurrent laryngeal branch of the vagus nerve. So when we, when we sing, that's why people when they sing and they come out of the choir or whatever, they just feel so good because the, the, the vagus nerve's getting stimulated. So the vagus nerve is the biggest nerve in the parasympathetic, the rest and digest nervous system. So there's the sympathetic fight or flight, classically called fight or flight, or the accelerator, and then there's the, the parasympathetic, which is kind of rest and digest, and it's the brake. The biggest nerve of the, uh, in the, is the 10th cranial nerve, which is the vagus nerve. Now, 80% of those fibers are afferent. They go from the body to the brain. So only 20% go from the brain to the body. So it's really, it's really constantly reading your gut, your heart, your throat. It's reading your system. So if you can calm your system, if you can calm your breathing, if you can calm your throat by, like, vibration. There's this, um, thing that, um, Dr. Peter Levine does about the, um, creator of somatic experiencing therapy where he has this thing where he says he gets people to do this, this enunciation called vu. So he will get them to, you know, sit down, feel their butt in the chair, take a deep breath in [inhales] vuuu. And you can feel the vibration in your throat, and you can even make it go lower, like vuuu. I don't know if it's, i- if there's something special about V or whether, like, moo would work if, like, you did it as a cow or something. You know, it, I think that there's just something about that vibration that stimulates that vagus nerve, and it kind of tells your brain, "Hey, we're okay."

    5. RC

      Yeah.

    6. RK

      You know? Because if you're in a stressful situation, you're not gonna be in this kind of mmm. And I think that's where yoga, you know, the whole omm. I think that's what it comes into.

    7. RC

      Well, we've been ... You know, I say we.

    8. RK

      Yeah.

    9. RC

      I and, um, I guess people within Indian families- [laughs]

    10. RK

      Mm-hmm

    11. RC

      ... from our parents-

    12. RK

      Yeah

    13. RC

      ... would always be told that when you say a mantra just before you're eating your food or when you say om, it's not just the word, it's the vibrations.

    14. RK

      Yes.

    15. RC

      Right? Uh, it's what it's ... You know, I, I can remember my grandma saying, you know, it changes every cell in your body, right?

    16. RK

      Yeah.

    17. RC

      Now, as a kid, I'm not sure how much you believe of that.

    18. RK

      Right. Sure.

    19. RC

      You know, growing up in a mind cult, you think-

    20. RK

      Sure

    21. RC

      ... okay, you know. But what's interesting for me is that you're now talking about this [laughs] kind of stuff from a neuroscientific-

    22. RK

      Yeah

    23. RC

      ... point of view as though-

    24. RK

      Exactly

    25. RC

      ... actually, whether it's om or what Peter Levine talks about-

    26. RK

      Yeah

    27. RC

      ... when we hum, when we say certain words-

    28. RK

      Yeah

    29. RC

      ... it changes what? The stimulation through the vagus nerve?

    30. RK

      Yeah. Yeah. And it feeds back into the brainstem, the lowest part of your brain that kind of controls your body and your autonomic nervous system, and that starts a positive feedback into your body as opposed to the negative feedback, which is my gut's tense. You know? There must be something wrong. And then again, your brain goes up and says, "Well, what's wrong?" And you just go, "Well, I've got my taxes due, and I've got to make this plane flight." Like, your, your brain is always going to be able to find reasons why you're stressed.

  10. 46:08 – 1:24:24

    Dr. Kennedy’s personal story: from health anxiety and CBT to a body-based root cause

    1. RC

      It's interesting. You know, Russ, you have suffered with crippling anxiety throughout-

    2. RK

      Mm-hmm

    3. RC

      ... your life.

    4. RK

      Yep.

    5. RC

      Right? A- and I know that's one of your big goals here is to go, look, it took you 30 years to get on top of this.

    6. RK

      Yeah.

    7. RC

      You don't want everyone else to have to also wait-

    8. RK

      Absolutely

    9. RC

      ... for 30 years.

    10. RK

      Absolutely.

    11. RC

      So I wonder if you could share some of your journey, especially around what did you think your anxiety was? How did it show up initially? What did you try and do that was so, I guess, unsuccessful for many years?

    12. RK

      Mm-hmm. Yeah.

    13. RC

      And what was the breakthrough when you thought, "Oh, I'm get- I, I'm, I'm tackling this the wrong way"?

    14. RK

      Yeah.

    15. RC

      Right? This is actually the root cause. So if you could just walk us through some of that-

    16. RK

      Yeah. Sure

    17. RC

      ... I think that'll be really illuminating.

    18. RK

      Yeah. Sure. My father was schizophrenic and bipolar, so he was also very loving and caring and generous. So I had these mixed signals as a child that my dad would be very connected with me and very ... You know, he was very, like, physical and, and, and gave me lots of hugs and touch and reassurance and that kind of thing, and then he would go, uh, manic for four days. You know, stay up for four days playing the trumpet. I still hate the trumpet. And, and yeah, it's, that's another ... That's a ... We could do a whole podcast on how Dr. Kennedy hates the trumpet, but-

    19. RC

      Although the trumpet, I'm guessing vagus nerve, would that have done anything?

    20. RK

      Absolutely. Parasympathetic.

    21. RC

      Yeah.

    22. RK

      That's why people chew pens. That's why people, a lot of reason why, why people smoke, is that anything sort of in this area. Uh, that's why kids pick their nose when they're nervous, 'cause they're, they're, they're trying to self-soothe.

    23. RC

      Mm.

    24. RK

      They're trying to stimulate that vagus nerve 'cause it does work, right? So that, all these oral activities does kind of put us more into that parasympathetic thing.

    25. RC

      Uh, on, just on a side note-

    26. RK

      Yeah

    27. RC

      ... I don't want to get in the way of your story.

    28. RK

      Yeah.

    29. RC

      I remember I spoke to Erwan Le Corre a few weeks ago on this show, and he's considered the godfather of natural movement. He's also developed this breath hold work meditation practice-

    30. RK

      Mm-hmm

  11. 1:24:24 – 1:42:02

    Movement and regulation: yoga, tai chi, and why running can become symptom-soothing

    1. RC

      Um, yoga.

    2. RK

      Okay.

    3. RC

      Yoga for many people helps to take them out of their mind and into their bodies.

    4. RK

      Yeah.

    5. RC

      Is, is that why you feel, or is that potentially one of the big benefits of yoga? Because a lot of people-

    6. RK

      Yeah

    7. RC

      ... Bessel van der Kolk, when he came on the show-

    8. RK

      Yeah

    9. RC

      ... was talking about how powerful yoga can be for people who've had adverse childhood experiences-

    10. RK

      Yeah

    11. RC

      ... who have parts of themselves stuck in their childhood still, you know. Are you a fan of yoga?

    12. RK

      I'm actually a registered yoga teacher. So it's, I think the... It, and it doesn't have to be yoga. It can be tai chi. It could be qigong. It's basically matching your breath and your movement so that you are now bringing your mind and your body back into connection. So I used to do this thing where I would just kind of do this, it loo- it looked like, like a kung fu thing, but I, it was just all freeform. But it would make me feel so much better because I was trapped in my head. I w- I lived neck up for, like, you know, 40 years of my life in this sort of anxious mess. And the thing about yoga is, again, it's about the breathing. It's about the movement, and that's... But any kind of physical movement that you are conscious of. I mean, it's just not flailing around, but just being really aware, you know? Um-

    13. RC

      What about running?

    14. RK

      That's a bit of a, there's a bit of a controversy there because you will start creating, um, endogenous opioids from the periaqueductal gray in your brain. You will start, in the brainstem, there's, there's a part of our brain that secretes natural opioids.

    15. RC

      Okay, so what's the problem with that?

    16. RK

      Well, it, because it, it's, it's a way of, of soothing the symptom as opposed to going to the root cause of the problem. And, and, and when you soothe the symptom, this is the same thing about giving people antidepressants, which is another thing. All of a sudden, now you've taken their anxiety or depression down to a point where they can manage it, and who wants to go back into their old wounds-

    17. RC

      Mm

    18. RK

      ... if they're feeling better? So the thing about running in, in that sort of runner's high kind of thing is that you're kind of, in a way, medicating it away, but you're not actually going at the root cause.

    19. RC

      That, I mean, that is really, really interesting.

    20. RK

      Yeah.

    21. RC

      So when you talk about getting out of your mind, getting into your body, movement, of course, is a great way to do that.

    22. RK

      Absolutely.

    23. RC

      If you go for a walk around the block, you, you just feel differently.

    24. RK

      Yep.

    25. RC

      Nothing actually has changed.

    26. RK

      Yep.

    27. RC

      You just feel differently at the end of that movement. Now, I get it. Yoga, tai chi, um-

    28. RK

      Qigong, all that stuff

    29. RC

      ... qigong, these kind of, I guess, slower-

    30. RK

      Mm-hmm

  12. 1:42:02 – 1:54:21

    Beyond anxiety: how trauma physiology can show up as IBS, fibromyalgia, and chronic pain

    1. RC

      When I think about these themes, and I think about the sort of patients that have come in regularly to see me over, what, 20, 21 years-

    2. RK

      Yeah, yeah

    3. RC

      ... something like that now, I think about IBS, irritable bowel syndrome.

    4. RK

      Mm-hmm.

    5. RC

      Massively on the rise.

    6. RK

      Ab- absolutely.

    7. RC

      I think again it's something that we as medical doctors have been pretty average [laughs] -

    8. RK

      Yeah

    9. RC

      ... at best-

    10. RK

      Yeah

    11. RC

      ... at treating. A lot of it's symptom control.

    12. RK

      Right.

    13. RC

      Like trying to give things antispasmodic medication to, to relieve the symptoms.

    14. RK

      Mm-hmm.

    15. RC

      And then, you know, on my own journey as a physician, uh, the first thing I really got into was the power of nutrition. This is many years ago.

    16. RK

      Mm-hmm.

    17. RC

      And then so suddenly you see things, you see everything through the nutrition lens.

    18. RK

      Yes, of course.

    19. RC

      Right?

    20. RK

      Yep.

    21. RC

      And so I would get reasonable benefits with patients with IBS changing their diets, helping them make changes, for sure. But as I observed more, as I understood more, and I really studied the patients who really healed-

    22. RK

      Mm-hmm

    23. RC

      ... not just short-term got- ... you know, some resolution from their symptoms, that the, the patients who've really actually got to the root cause and moved beyond it-

    24. RK

      Mm-hmm

    25. RC

      ... so that it was no longer controlling their life.

    26. RK

      Right.

    27. RC

      I-- And I've been saying this publicly for years, that IBS, the primary issue for me is stress. It is not foods.

    28. RK

      Yeah.

    29. RC

      Right? I'm convinced of it if I think about what I've observed, and it really fits in with what you're talking about, right? Where is that alarm in your body? Well, for many of us [laughs] it's in our gut.

    30. RK

      Yeah.

  13. 1:54:21 – 2:04:47

    Small “t” trauma and hidden separations: sensitivity, memory, and early development

    1. RC

      When we use the word trauma-

    2. RK

      Yeah

    3. RC

      ... we often think about these big events.

    4. RK

      Mm-hmm.

    5. RC

      You know, I just mentioned-

    6. RK

      Yeah

    7. RC

      ... a bomb shelter-

    8. RK

      Yeah

    9. RC

      ... and a war. You know, we've mentioned abuse-

    10. RK

      Yeah

    11. RC

      ... right? But clearly not everyone has those major trauma events in life.

    12. RK

      Right.

    13. RC

      And you're drawing, um, a strong link between our childhoods-

    14. RK

      Mm-hmm

    15. RC

      ... and our experience of anxiety as adults.

    16. RK

      Yes.

    17. RC

      So can you just help me and help us broaden our thinking on this? What might people have experienced that's not, you know, what's called big T trauma-

    18. RK

      Yeah, yeah

    19. RC

      ... but could still be impacting them and causing anxiety?

    20. RK

      Yeah. Here's a really interesting thing. So when I see someone who's had a good, a good childhood, they come to me and they have good childhood and they have chronic anxiety- I'll, I'll always ask them the same question, "Were you separated from your parents before you were five years old? Was there a hospitalization? Did your mother have to stay in hospital after you were born or whatever?" And the number of people that come back and say, "Oh my God, I talked to my mom. She said they went away for... My mother had to go for an immigration thing when I was three years old. She went for a month. I don't even remember it." You know? So there's this massive separation that she experienced as a child, but because her memory system, her implicit memory system was active but her explicit memory system, I probably shouldn't go into that, but, but because-

    21. RC

      No, you can do. Feel free.

    22. RK

      Yeah. Well, implicit is body memories, basically. That's the short version of it. So she has a body memory of when she was three years old and she, and her mom was away for a month. But she doesn't consciously remember that her mom was away for a month. She has a huge issue with separation, which now we go back. But b- when she came in to see me with chronic anxiety, she said, "You know what? My par-" And they were good parents. They were great parents, but because of that separation that she didn't even remember, she has deep separation anxiety. So we go back and we find it. So it manifests in different ways, and it depends on how sensitive your nervous system is. I have a very sensitive nervous system, so even the slightest thing when I was a child would send me up. Some people, my brother is a lot more resilient than I am. So it's one of those things that, that, you know, a small... I would see people in my practice that would have, like, the death of an uncle or something like that, and they had attuned, connected parents that would do okay. I'd also see people who had a death of a, of their goldfish that would completely collapse. So it depends on how sensitive your nervous system and how much, like I said, how much resilience, how much capacity was built in your nervous system from an attuned, attached connection-

    23. RC

      Yeah

    24. RK

      ... with your parents. So if you have that resilient, 'cause 80% of your brain development is before the age of five. So if you, before the age of five, have attuned, attached parents to you, you're much more likely to be resilient to stuff later on. So big T, little T trauma doesn't matter so much because you've already built this resilient nervous system. But very small thing. If you have a sensitive nervous system, very small things like a, a separation you didn't even know about. I've had people who, who their parents went on a week-long vacation when they were two years old set them into this. So, you know, it's really interesting-

    25. RC

      Yeah

    26. RK

      ... when I look back, like, the different things, but it's really a combination of your sensitivity and the... It's almost like a, like a physics equation. You know? Like sensitivity, how sensitive you are on a scale of one to 100, and then the trauma, how much the trauma was.

    27. RC

      Okay. There's gonna be a lot of guilt coming up right now, I'm sure, for a lot of people. So let's, let's really make sure we, um, give some practical tips because, of course, if someone's got a child above the age of five now-

    28. RK

      Mm-hmm

    29. RC

      ... or they're adults-

    30. RK

      Yep

  14. 2:04:47 – 2:22:59

    Awareness as the turning point: ABC framework and learning to tolerate feeling good

    1. RC

      ... or pharmaceutical approaches that we have been trying to adopt are clearly limited. Something you said in the book was absolutely profound was this. One of the most powerful tools for you in your healing journey was not doctors, therapy, or medications. It was a sense of awareness.

    2. RK

      Yeah.

    3. RC

      And I wanna just finish off this conversation talking about that awareness, and perhaps we could relate that to your ABC framework.

    4. RK

      Mm-hmm.

    5. RC

      That I think is really practical for people.

    6. RK

      Sure.

    7. RC

      And maybe it's quite a nice way to sort of close down this conversation.

    8. RK

      Yeah, sure. Yeah, absolutely.

    9. RC

      So why, what... When you say a sense of awareness was one of the most powerful tools, what does that mean, and why was it so powerful?

    10. RK

      Mostly awareness of the alarm. It's the alarm [laughs] in your body that's causing the, the thoughts of your mind. The thoughts of your mind aren't the o- originator of your anxiety.

    11. RC

      So before that-

    12. RK

      Yeah

    13. RC

      ... you thought it was your thoughts.

    14. RK

      Yes, absolutely.

    15. RC

      You thought, "I am my thoughts."

    16. RK

      Absolutely. Until LSD, yeah. So as we're closing, I don't wanna [laughs] get... But LSD actually showed me. This is, this is when I was suicidal, like in 2013. Uh, I had just left medicine and I was suicidal, and my friend said, "Look, you know, you need a, a different view of life." So he took me on an LSD trip, and in the, on that LSD trip, I saw that my anxiety, what I called my anxiety of my mind, was actually this sharp purple density in my, in my solar plexus. And I don't know exactly how I, I, I got this or whatever, but it's like, oh, this is the source. This is the problem. So ever since then I've kinda gone, "Okay, how do I heal this?" I can still work on, on the cognitive CBT stuff. I can still work on that, but it's being aware that this, this is the root cause of my anxiety. So that's what I was shown, is like this is the root cause of my anxiety, so this is what I have to deal with. So I put my hand over it. I breathe into it. I realize it's there. Because you can't change anything that you're not aware of. So that awareness, and as I got into it, you know, it got more nuanced. It's sharp. It's hollow. It, it feels lonely. Like I go into this whole thing with it, and it's like, okay, that's where you are, and there is this initial sense that I'm on the right track.

    17. RC

      Um, psychedelics-

    18. RK

      Yeah

    19. RC

      ... not intentionally, but just the way [laughs] the podcast schedule has kind of-

    20. RK

      Right

    21. RC

      ... formed over the last few weeks and months, it's amazing how many times psychedelics have come up.

    22. RK

      Yeah.

    23. RC

      I know it came up in my conversation with Dr. Bessel van der Kolk. It came up with Dr. Gabor Maté. It even came up with a conversation with neuroscientist, uh, Dr. Anil Seth.

    24. RK

      Mm-hmm

    25. RC

      Recently. And so I just want to say at this point, 'cause I think it's really important, that there are downsides to psychedelics.

    26. RK

      Yeah.

    27. RC

      There are, there are c- there are certainly risks.

    28. RK

      They're not a panacea. Yeah.

    29. RC

      They're not a panacea. They have to be done with great care and attention in controlled settings.

    30. RK

      Yeah.

  15. 2:22:59 – 2:27:56

    Closing tools: “Am I safe in this moment?” and where to go deeper

    1. RC

      'Cause this has been, this has been, uh, I think really wonderful and, and I'm sure very helpful for people. Couple of things. If people want to connect with you or go, "I wanna go deeper into your work"-

    2. RK

      Yeah

    3. RC

      ... you've obviously got the book-

    4. RK

      Yeah

    5. RC

      ... which you just mentioned, Anxiety Rx.

    6. RK

      Yep.

    7. RC

      Which you self-published. It's incredible-

    8. RK

      I self-published, yes

    9. RC

      ... how well it's doing as a self-published book.

    10. RK

      40, 45,000 copies and counting right now.

    11. RC

      Yeah. Well, congratulations.

    12. RK

      That's-

    13. RC

      That's, that's no mean feat-

    14. RK

      Yeah

    15. RC

      ... when you don't have a publisher behind you, when you've just done it all yourself.

    16. RK

      Yeah.

    17. RC

      And I think that speaks to how powerful your message is. You've also just launched this online course.

    18. RK

      Yeah.

    19. RC

      What, what's the online course for?

    20. RK

      It's called Your, uh, Your Mind-Body Prescription. Everything's got prescription in it. Your Mind-Body Prescription for Permanent Anxiety Healing. So it's fairly short. It's under two hours. There's, uh, seven videos and two meditations. One of the meditations is how you find your alarm. I put you into this relaxed state. I get you to think of the things you worry about.

    21. RC

      Mm-hmm.

    22. RK

      Maybe a traumatic event from your childhood. Not of course the worst one. And then finding the alarm in your body. And then there's a yoga nidra that actually addresses the mind-body disconnect and addresses the adult-child disconnect as well. And then there's three sort of exiting videos that say, "These are likely what's gonna happen to you as you start to heal." Because when you start feeling better, when you start feeling calm, there will be a sense that this isn't safe, this isn't familiar. Because a lot of us have never felt safe or felt calm.

    23. RC

      Mm-hmm.

    24. RK

      So that's the old ego, and the ego is very tenacious, and it'll come back. So it's almost like my biggest issue with h- helping people heal from anxiety is I can get you feeling better, but can you tolerate it? How good can you stand it? Are, are you able to tolerate feeling good?

    25. RC

      Mm.

    26. RK

      Because a lot of people when they were younger, this is es- especially true with alcoholic families, is that there's a big blowout, it's a big alcoholic blowout, and then the, the alcoholic is very like, "Oh, I'm so sorry. I'll never do it again. I'll never do it again." And then there's a period of calm, and then it blows up again. So what happened? And it doesn't have to be alcoholism, but it can be a lot of things. With my dad it was mental illness. And I could never really relax, 'cause I always knew he was gonna go off the rails again. So for me, calm meant that something was coming, right?

    27. RC

      Mm-hmm.

    28. RK

      So chapter 62 in the book is when it's not safe to feel safe. A lot of us didn't feel safe feeling safe, because it was always followed by some sort of calamity. So it's really learning how to trust safety and trust love for yourself, which is, you know, basically that's life.

    29. RC

      Yeah. You've traveled a long way to come on the show, all the way [laughs] from North America.

    30. RK

      Yeah, that's true.

Episode duration: 2:29:13

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