"Reclaim Your Life!" - Everyday Habits Keeping You From A Life Of Purpose & Meaning | Africa Brooke

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 0:00 I wanted to start off, Africa, talking about one of the most common regrets of the dying, which is, "I wish I'd lived my life and not the life that other people expected of me."

Africa Brooke 0:17 Hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 0:18 If I think about your work, your writings, your new book, to me it kinda speaks to this regret.

Africa Brooke 0:27 Gosh.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 0:28 How does that land for you?

Africa Brooke 0:29 Ooh. My entire body, um, is lit up in goosebumps because you've just articulated it in a way that I've never thought before, but in a way that feels so intuitively true, that the reason I stand for brave expression in the way that I do, the reason that I push back very firmly but compassionately push back against self-censorship or us overly editing our thoughts, agreeing with things that we don't actually agree with, is that I... It really is one of the things that leaves people in a place of just severe self-distrust. And what you just said reminds me of that thing, right, of, um, there are people that are still existing as if they are living, but they are already dead inside, you know? And it reminds me of that very thing that we think from moment to moment, that we are just allowing something to fly, just agreeing because we want to keep the peace, we just want to belong, but actually what we're also doing is getting further and further and further away from ourselves. And yeah, that, that quote really, really speaks to me, and I know that it's going to for a lot of people as well. But I just hadn't thought about it as one of the biggest things that people will regret, is not allowing for themselves to express what is actually true.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:54 Yeah, I'm fascinated by these regrets of the dying.

Africa Brooke 1:57 Hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:57 Uh, I talk about it often on this show because to me it, it kinda speaks to what's really important in life.

Africa Brooke 2:05 Hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:06 And can we learn from people on their deathbed to change the way we live today?

Africa Brooke 2:12 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:13 And I think one of the reasons I'm so passionate about your work is because I think on many levels it speaks to something I have struggled with in the past-

Africa Brooke 2:22 Hmm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:22 ... which is actually truly expressing who you are to the world, right? And I don't think this is just relevant for people with public profiles like me or you.

Africa Brooke 2:35 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:35 Right? This is relevant for every single person. And it seems to me, Africa, that in society now, the way we are living, the way culture is moving on, so many of us are, in your words, self-censoring-

Africa Brooke 2:49 Hmm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:49 ... and we don't even realize that we're doing it.

Africa Brooke 2:52 No, I, I... And I write about this, and I, I wonder what you think, but I think we, we get rewarded for it. We've sort of built this environment online and offline, but I think we get to see it just in a very different way online, where actually you get rewarded for agreeing with the majority, and you get severely, severely, severely punished in many instances for saying, "Actually, I don't view things in that way," or, "I don't agree with that," or, "I've changed my mind." Or even simple confusion, saying, "I don't understand that," you're punished because you should be educated. We sort of use this, um, very self-righteous language, "You should be educated. That terminology is outdated." Or you don't even get told exactly what it is that you've done, but if it doesn't mirror the approved worldview, you're punished for it. So I can, I can understand. I'm really, um, empathetic and compassionate to people that do repress their speech, people that overly edit their thoughts. And I think this is one of the biggest problems, that it's not just about what you externalize. The issue is when you start to police your own thoughts, which is kind of what's starting to happen. But we're getting rewarded for not telling the truth. We're getting rewarded for agreeing with things that we don't agree with. So I think there's something there around the social reward that comes with self-betrayal in many ways. So that's... I, I think that's just sort of one thread of the tapestry. But I'm always curious, what do you, what do you think is sort of the reason we self-censor and don't even really recognize that we're doing it, or don't question it?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 4:37 It, it's really hard because, again, I'm biased by my own experience, of course.

Africa Brooke 4:41 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 4:41 So I can't necessarily say that my experience speaks to anyone else's.

Africa Brooke 4:47 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 4:47 I put a large volume of information out online-

Africa Brooke 4:51 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 4:51 ... with the intention of trying to help people live healthier and happier lives. And I've noticed that sometimes you may put something out with the very best intention, and it gets interpreted in a different way to how you meant it.

Africa Brooke 5:07 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 5:08 And sometimes people really quite respectfully point something out, which is great. More often than not, though, if- [laughs]

Africa Brooke 5:17 [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 5:17 ... if someone doesn't share the same view, they... Um, I don't know how to really describe it. But I'm very keen that this conversation doesn't become just about social media-

Africa Brooke 5:28 Absolutely

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 5:28 ... because I think social media maybe highlights the way that we are. Because, okay, as I was reading your book last night, so I stayed up late to finish it, actually, 'cause it's, it was really compelling me.

Africa Brooke 5:40 Thank you.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 5:41 I thought, "Is social media really as bad as we're often saying it is, or is it simply reflecting who we are and how we're interacting?" Because if we all showed up on social media with kindness, with compassion, with a non-judgmental tone- Or maybe social media would be the very best place in the world to connect

Africa Brooke 6:05 Yeah. Yeah. And you're so right. It's, it's even something that I mention quite early on in the book, in that this is not a rant about social media. And I go on to say that if it wasn't for social media, you wouldn't know about me. Most people discovered me on social media because I was sharing my story with addiction. I needed to get well, and I was doing it out loud. I ended up b- uh, building a community accidentally, and that very same community is with me eight years on, and it's become a big part of my work-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 6:37 Mm

Africa Brooke 6:37 ... to explore the human condition of self-sabotage, et cetera. I've done that through social media, and it's had a huge spillover into my offline life. So I, I, I really appreciate that you say that because I think it can be, um, a bit of a weak conclusion to come to, to think that the polarization and division that we see today is because of social media, full stop. I think there's a part of that in that the algorithms will amplify-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 7:04 Mm

Africa Brooke 7:04 ... things that are, you know, things that convey outrage and confusion and just all of the seemingly low-level human emotions. I think we can all agree on that. And at the same time, I think social media is revealing something that is already there, our inability to hold difference, our inability to hold conflicting views, our inability to even admit that we are contradictory beings.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 7:32 Mm-hmm.

Africa Brooke 7:33 That I can agree with one thing, and then the next moment I might behave in a way that is in direct contradiction with the thing that I agree with. You know, I, I think we sort of don't see the contradiction in ourselves or accept it within ourselves, rather, so therefore, we can't accept it in other people. So I think there's, there's, um... Social media holds up a mirror. I think maybe that's how I would put it.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 7:58 Yeah.

Africa Brooke 7:58 It's sort of holding up a mirror to what already is.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 8:02 You've mentioned the term self-censorship-

Africa Brooke 8:04 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 8:04 ... a couple of times so far. Can you explain exactly what-

Africa Brooke 8:11 Mm-hmm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 8:12 ... you mean-

Africa Brooke 8:12 Yes

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 8:12 ... when you use that term?

Africa Brooke 8:13 Yes. And if anyone listening to me now has engaged with my work before, then you will know that I always like to give a very clear definition of what we're talking about. Because this, this is something I'll come back to later, but I think a lot of the sort of, uh, conflict and division we're seeing is because we have definition issues. We're defining things in different ways.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 8:36 Mm.

Africa Brooke 8:36 If you're working with a different definition, and I am too, we can never come to an agreement because we're arguing about-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 8:42 Mm

Africa Brooke 8:43 ... different things. Self-censorship is when you're withholding your speech, your ideas, your expression, in whatever form. It could even be physical expression. You're withholding some information because you believe that if you externalize it, if you express yourself in the way that you truly want to, you're going to be punished for it in some way, that there's going to be a price to pay. If I really say what I think, I'm going to be punished. I'm going to be socially exiled, and the language that we use today, I'm going to be canceled for it. If I truly... Let's say you're someone that's from a very conservative community, very conservative family, and you want to dress in a way that is maybe very liberal, a way that is seen as a very Western way to dress, a way that people in your culture are not used to women or men dressing like. You might think that, "If I do this thing, I'm going to be punished. I'm going to be exiled. There's going to be a cost." So self-censorship, I think we think it's just about speech, what it is that you're saying, but it's in your entire expression. What parts of yourself are you holding back because you feel that if they're shown to the world or even to yourself, there'll be a price to pay? So it's very fear-driven. I think I, I want to make that point very clear, that it's fear-driven, because a lot of the time people will say, "Well, Africa, isn't that just being tactful? I'm not actually self-censoring. I- I'm just being tactful and reading the room."

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 10:15 Mm.

Africa Brooke 10:16 It's not the same. Self-censorship by definition is driven by fear. Please, let's not confuse it with having a social filter. A social filter is a thinking skill that we all use without even realizing we're using it, right? You truly read the room. You understand that certain conversations, you can't really have them with your family because of many different reasons, cultural reasons, generational differences, difference in humor, difference in understanding. But you can have the similar conversation with your siblings who are maybe a similar age. It's... So it's discernment. It's knowing your audience, knowing the context, knowing, uh, that there's a time and a place, reading the room. Maybe it's too early to make a critique.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 11:00 Mm.

Africa Brooke 11:00 You need to hold space for someone. This is discernment. It's grounded. So, um, yeah, I, I think it's important to make it very clear that self-censorship is fear-driven. Let's not confuse it with social filtering, which is grounded discernment.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 11:16 How does someone know the difference?

Africa Brooke 11:18 Hmm. This i- this is something that I think about all the time, and I tend to kind of have different answers because I don't, I don't think that there's a neat conclusion to any of this.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 11:30 Yeah.

Africa Brooke 11:31 I think you discover the difference through practice. I think sometimes even when you're social filtering and reading the room, you might feel discomfort in your body. But I don't think that discomfort on a... And I, I really want to know your perspective from like a nervous system point of view, like a somatic point of view. Um, I do think that discomfort can be very different from pain.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 11:57 Mm.

Africa Brooke 11:57 And I think self-censorship will feel on some level like a betrayal because you know that you're not being truthful. You know that you're not being in integrity. You know that you're agreeing- ... with something that you really disagree with, but you're doing so so you can stay safe. Whereas I think social filtering and saying, "Actually, this is not the right time and place," you might feel maybe even a little bit of discomfort because a part of you wants to say something.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 12:24 Mm-hmm.

Africa Brooke 12:24 But I don't know that it would have the same, um, impact, if you will, on your nervous system in the way that truly self-censoring and you recognizing that you're self-censoring does.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 12:36 Yeah. I, I, I really like that-

Africa Brooke 12:38 Mm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 12:38 ... um, explanation. I really love what you said at the start, which is there's no easy, neat answer-

Africa Brooke 12:46 No

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 12:46 ... to that question. There isn't. There's no-

Africa Brooke 12:48 No

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 12:48 ... easy way to know, [laughs] "Oh, this is self-censoring, this is social, uh, discernment."

Africa Brooke 12:53 Filtering, exactly.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 12:53 Social filtering.

Africa Brooke 12:54 Discernment, exactly.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 12:57 I think it is something you discover. It's something I've discovered for myself, and something I've often spoken about on this podcast before is this idea that you can't hide from yourself. And that's why for me, a daily practice of solitude is one of the most important practices for health, happiness, wellbeing.

Africa Brooke 13:18 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 13:18 Not self-censoring, whatever it might be, because it's only when you have that time with yourself, without external inputs, where you start to really feel what's going on.

Africa Brooke 13:28 Yes, yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 13:29 You know, like, if you have self-censored in a particular setting... I don't know. Let, let's make this really practical for people. Let's say in your job, you're at a team meeting, and you know what the team is saying is not quite right, or you feel it's not quite right, and you don't speak up. If that nags away at you for the rest of the day-

Africa Brooke 13:55 Mm-hmm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 13:55 ... that evening when you're trying to go to sleep, you're just lying there, you're thinking about it, I would say that's probably, I can't say in every case, but in many cases, that might be an indication-

Africa Brooke 14:06 Yes

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 14:07 ... of self-censoring.

Africa Brooke 14:08 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 14:09 Now, you could also argue that maybe there's a very good reason why you didn't speak up. Maybe your boss doesn't like people to go against what he or she is saying.

Africa Brooke 14:19 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 14:19 Right? So, uh, I wanna be really inclusive to people, and I, I'm, I'm not saying it's easy, and you make it very clear [laughs] in the book that this ain't easy.

Africa Brooke 14:27 Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 14:27 But I think if you have spoken up in a very grounded way, using a lot of the tools that you outline in your book-

Africa Brooke 14:35 Yes

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 14:35 ... I don't think you'll get that nagging feeling afterwards, that sort of constantly being, rethinking about it again. Does it-

Africa Brooke 14:42 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 14:42 ... does that make sense?

Africa Brooke 14:43 Oh, 100%. And I would even go a step further to say that if you're someone that really wants to cultivate courage and true bravery, not out there in the world, but within yourself, because it really does start with you changing your internal environment, which I make very clear in the book, that I think the assumption immediately will be about, "Okay, let's look at how other people are being intolerant. Let's have that conversation." But you need to have a look at where are you being intolerant in ways that you don't realize, being intolerant of your own thoughts, to say, "Actually, I can't say this. This is not a good thought. This is a bad thought," and repressing that. Because in that instance, that thing is nagging away at you, and you're thinking, "I should've said something." But why, why do I think I should've said something? I think that's the next step to take to even cultivate self-trust.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 15:32 Mm.

Africa Brooke 15:32 Where you get curious about your decision to be silent or your decision to respond. So I think it's not a clear-cut answer, and none of this is, by the way, because it requires you to do a kind of a natural level of self-introspection-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 15:49 Mm

Africa Brooke 15:49 ... where you feel something, and you take on the role of the observer, and you say, "But why didn't I say something?"

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 15:56 Mm.

Africa Brooke 15:56 "Was it truly unsafe, or did I perceive that there was some kind of unsafety in the room? Is it because I've never challenged anyone before, so therefore I'm doing something for the first time, so that discomfort is coming because I didn't allow myself to try something for the first time, because I'm so used to agreeing?" I think, um, ultimately what I'm sort of hearing, even as we're talking, that all of this is about cultivating self-trust within yourself first so that you can even be able to discern. Because how do you discern or decide between right or wrong? Was I truly silent because I just didn't have enough information, or was I silent because I wanted to say something, but I was just so afraid that I might be punished, or that there's a cost to my words? But all of it requires a level of, um, introspection that can actually be very fun.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 16:51 Yeah.

Africa Brooke 16:51 Because I think it's, it's easy for people to think, "Oh, but that's a lot of work. Do I have to overly monitor everything that I say and every response I make or every choice of silence?" I, I don't think it's about that. I think it's about cultivating and creating self-trust so that you're able to make v- clear decisions.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 17:13 Mm.

Africa Brooke 17:13 You know?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 17:16 You mentioned addiction.

Africa Brooke 17:19 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 17:19 Okay. And I know you've had issues, let's say, with alcohol in the past-

Africa Brooke 17:26 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 17:26 ... I think between the ages of 14 and 24-

Africa Brooke 17:28 Mm, mm-hmm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 17:28 ... if I remember correctly.

Africa Brooke 17:29 Exactly.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 17:31 In the early parts of your book, you, you talk about this idea that not admitting to an addiction is similar to holding back your opinion.

Africa Brooke 17:43 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 17:44 I found that really, really interesting. So we're talking about self-censorship, right? And we mentioned a team meeting where maybe someone doesn't speak up-

Africa Brooke 17:51 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 17:51 ... because of fear. And you're saying that holding back your true thoughts has a lot more in common with not admitting to something really serious like an addiction-

Africa Brooke 18:05 Mm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 18:05 ... than we might think.

Africa Brooke 18:06 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 18:07 Can you explain that? Because I think-

Africa Brooke 18:08 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 18:09 ... it's really important to help people understand What is the cost of self-censoring?

Africa Brooke 18:13 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 18:14 Why, why, why should they bother? Go, "Yeah, Africa, you know what? I am safe when I do that."

Africa Brooke 18:17 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 18:17 "So why should I bother?"

Africa Brooke 18:19 Right. [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 18:19 "It's much better when I don't speak up, and I don't put myself out there on social media, and I don't tell my boss that I disagree with his or her idea."

Africa Brooke 18:26 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 18:26 So I think this might, I think this might help people understand why it's so important-

Africa Brooke 18:32 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 18:32 ... for our health and our happiness that we don't self-censor.

Africa Brooke 18:36 Yeah. Oh, I, I love that you bring that up because that's one of my favorite parts of the book where I make it... I, I sort of share my personal story, which I only do in the earlier parts of the book, and sort of weave it throughout. But essentially what I'm saying there, and the reason why I think it's so important that you raise that, is because to me, when you censor yourself, you're devaluing your experience. You're pretty much saying, and this is unconscious, I understand that, and I want you to understand that. It's not a conscious thing. Most of these things are just running on autopilot, old programming that we haven't looked at to think, "Ooh, is this working, or do I need to get rid of it and install something much more useful?" But to me, when you silence your true experience, you're pretty much communicating to yourself that it's not valuable, that it's not worthy of being heard, it's not worthy of being seen, that it's better to replicate someone else's experience or what someone else thinks of you. So I would say that for those of us that actually care about the relationship that they have with themselves, if you're someone that does value yourself, and I would imagine that every single person who listened to this podcast, every single person who values open conversations like this, is someone that wants to be better within themselves, someone that is so curious about who they are in the world, how they carry themselves, how they treat themselves, the value in which they place-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 20:03 Mm-hmm

Africa Brooke 20:03 ... on who they are. So I, I do need you to understand that self-censoring is not just this thing that you might do now and again. It's really important to shine a line- light on it because when you do withhold those parts of yourself that are so useful, the good, the bad, the ugly, the joyous, the wonderful, if you're holding that back and not allowing for even one person to truly see who you are, you're devaluing your experience. So for me, when I was pretending that I wasn't, um, in the, just in the throes of addiction for a decade, from 14 to 24, pretending that it was just, you know, casual drinking even though I was blacking out pretty much every single time. Everyone around me could see it. I could see it, but I didn't want to see the truth of it. So even then, I was censoring the truth of my experience. I wasn't owning up to it myself, let alone to other people.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 20:58 Mm.

Africa Brooke 20:58 And I think for me, making that connection to realize that actually, I think I had this idea that self-censoring kind of came later just through my speech and through things that were happening culturally. But I have done this. I've been doing this since I was a child, to not allow for people to know what I'm really going through, because I think I'm going to get in trouble for it in some way. 'Cause that seems to always be the underlying thing. Even as, as adults from the age of when you were six compared to when you're 45, the underlying thing always seems to be, "If people really know what I think, what I feel, what I'm experiencing, I'm gonna get in trouble in some way."

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 21:40 Yeah, I mean, I think a lot of what we're talking about-

Africa Brooke 21:44 Mm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 21:44 ... and what you write about in your new book is, I think, related to our childhood experiences.

Africa Brooke 21:50 Yes, yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 21:51 You know, how were we raised?

Africa Brooke 21:52 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 21:53 What did our parents or our caregivers permit?

Africa Brooke 21:56 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 21:56 What were we allowed to say and share? What was celebrated? What was shut down? You know, when were we made to feel guilty? All these kind of things.

Africa Brooke 22:05 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 22:06 And so if you follow that logic, then you could argue that the way you are self-censoring online, with your family-

Africa Brooke 22:16 Yes

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 22:16 ... with your work colleagues, in many ways is a window into your childhood.

Africa Brooke 22:23 Mm. Mm-hmm. Oh, I, I love that, and there's a series of questions that I put forward. Actually, through the book, you would've seen it. I wanted to make sure that I'm not sort of just giving people more information to take in, and they can read it-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 22:38 Mm

Africa Brooke 22:38 ... and think, "Ooh, that's true." I really wanted to put forward questions that are very quite deep and introspective, and we, we tap into that piece on childhood because I'm someone that actually doesn't think that every single thing you experience as an adult is connected to childhood. I think a lot of it is, but not everything.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 22:57 Mm.

Africa Brooke 22:57 Something can happen in your early 20s, something really tragic can happen in your 30s that really shapes who you become for the rest of your life. So I take all of that into account, but you're so right that a lot of things we can trace back to something, even just one incident that happened in childhood, and now it in- it informs the way you share or choose not to share. Um, and something else that I wanted to bring up is there might be people, and I work with a lot of people like this who tend to be men, who are very drawn to this conversation that I'm having, especially from a cultural perspective, but they believe that their problem is not self-censorship. So they are the kind of person that will say, "Well, I say it how it is," you know. "I think other people should learn how to say it how it is. Other people should have a backbone," or whatever. But actually, they are experiencing the very same problem that those that struggle with self-censorship do, in that their communication is ineffective, full stop. So they are the people that don't have a refined social filter. So you have people that can say, "Okay, self-censorship is my issue. I'm struggling with knowing what to say. I feel resistance around saying what I know to be true. I feel resistance around saying I don't know or I've changed my mind." And then you have people on the other side that have an unrefined social filter, where they will not use discernment in any conversation, where they maybe don't have as much empathy and compassion as, as they would need to in order to be more effective. Maybe they are the people that prioritize facts and logic over emotion, in that when they're having a dialogue with someone, they really can't see where someone is coming from. So they're very narrow in their own-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 24:46 Mm

Africa Brooke 24:46 ... worldview and their communication. But ultimately, the two people from the two groups are still being very ineffective in how they communicate. So that's also something that I wanted to speak to.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 24:57 Yeah. You say in the book, don't you, "Saying everything and nothing are not your only two options."

Africa Brooke 25:02 Yes. Yes. [laughs] There's the in between.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 25:06 But-

Africa Brooke 25:06 There's the in between

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 25:07 ... I mean, I don't know if there's any research on this, but how many people do you think this affects? How many people out there?

Africa Brooke 25:17 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 25:17 What percentage of the population would you say self-censor?

Africa Brooke 25:23 It's something that I think about all the time, e- especially from culture to culture. Because I think the conversation I- I'm having now and focusing on now is from a very Western lens, even though I know it spills over to different cultures, and I'd love to have the culture conversation with you. But I actually think there's a huge silent majority. There's a big, big silent majority. I think we only ever hear from the extremes-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 25:50 Yeah

Africa Brooke 25:50 ... and we see the extremes online, right? But I think you, you just have to speak to the people in your life to know what is true. You would just have to speak to the people in your life to know that so many people, now more than ever, and I think that's why the term cancel culture is even a thing, because it speaks to something that is so real, and something that is no longer isolated to just online, where you just have to speak to people, where they will tell you that they're so afraid to say things, you know? People sort of use it, people sort of, uh, make it a caricature that people are complaining that they can't say anything anymore. But there's, there's something to that. If we're to be completely honest, there is something to that-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 26:33 Yeah

Africa Brooke 26:33 ... where we started to walk on eggshells in conversation, that maybe if you say a certain word, has it, has that word been deemed problematic now? We don't really know. Everything's changing very quickly.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 26:45 There seems to be this expectation-

Africa Brooke 26:47 Mm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 26:47 ... that you know all the up-to-date rules-

Africa Brooke 26:51 Yes

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 26:51 ... and that you have signed up to these rules.

Africa Brooke 26:53 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 26:54 I think one of your chapters is called You Owe the Internet Nothing.

Africa Brooke 26:56 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 26:57 Which I, I just love.

Africa Brooke 26:58 [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 26:58 The, the chapters are great, but that, that chapter title is wonderful.

Africa Brooke 27:02 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 27:03 Um, I, I really want this conversation to be useful for everyone.

Africa Brooke 27:06 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 27:09 Whereas I, I wouldn't say it's a unique position, but not everyone has a large public profile, right? But then the bigger your, your platforms get, the more opinions you're getting exposed to. And hey, I'm not asking for any sympathy, just to be really clear, right? I chose to put myself in this position, but it's interesting what you observe.

Africa Brooke 27:31 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 27:32 I know this is a minor thing. I brought this up in a pre- in a recent conversation with Charles Duhigg, who, who has a book out about conversation-

Africa Brooke 27:40 Mm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 27:40 ... and communication, how do we become super communicators.

Africa Brooke 27:44 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 27:44 And it's funny how many messages, how many DMs I've had since then, because I say, to me, if I'm replying to someone online, I'll go and press on their handle to see what their name is, and I go, "Oh-

Africa Brooke 27:56 Yes

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 27:56 ... hi, Belinda. Thanks so much for your message."

Africa Brooke 27:59 Me too.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 27:59 Um, "I don't really see it in the same way as you do. This is my perspective." And the amount of people who don't say, "Hi, Rangan. Hi," anything.

Africa Brooke 28:08 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 28:08 They're just like, "What episode is out?" You know, and I get it. I'm, I get people are busy.

Africa Brooke 28:14 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 28:14 But if you zoom out for a minute, you go, "What has happened to us as a society, as a culture, where we no longer have time for the basics of communication?"

Africa Brooke 28:26 Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 28:26 Like, I, I think it's so important.

Africa Brooke 28:29 Gosh.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 28:30 But it's, it's, it's so unfashionable now. It's kind of odd to get someone to go, "Oh, hi, Lisa. Thanks so much." Um-

Africa Brooke 28:39 Right

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 28:39 ... do you know what I mean?

Africa Brooke 28:40 Yes, yes, yes. Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 28:41 And actually, so many people have sent me DMs going, "Wow, you know, I've noticed as I do that." And so they said, "I'm really sorry." And they, they, they've said, "I've now started to change." Now listen, it's just a tiny thing, but it's our humanity, isn't it?

Africa Brooke 28:52 Yes, absolutely. I love that you're bringing this up, and I'm just writing down, um, the term micro moments and micro interactions, because it's something I think about all the time, and I'll come back to it. But that thing you're speaking to, there might be some people, most people listening to this don't have, let's say, big public platforms, and I, I threw in the word big very intentionally. Because if you're using the internet today and you have a public profile and it's not private, you are somewhat a public figure, okay? Times have really changed, and the reason that I bring that up is because there used to be a very clear difference between someone having 10,000 followers, someone having 20,000 followers, and maybe the person that has a big audience says something and there's uproar. But you could have 10 followers and make a post that you think is relatively innocent, and it's not even that important. You didn't say anything huge. Turn off your phone and go about your day, come back, and it's gone viral, and now you're being ripped apart in the comment sections. You're being dogpiled. People are telling you what you said is problematic. People are saying that it's wrong. It, I, I say that because this conversation is important for all of us.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 30:06 Yeah.

Africa Brooke 30:07 All of us. Um, and the thing you're saying around, um, how people will speak to you and approach you, I sort of group that as part of the dehumanizing that's starting to happen online, where we treat people like platforms and brands and resources, and don't think about the human being behind them. And the higher the follower count, the more we think it's okay to dehumanize them.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 30:30 Yeah.

Africa Brooke 30:30 It's, it's quite mad, isn't it?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 30:33 To make sure you're taking action after watching this video, I've created a free breathing guide that's gonna help you reduce stress, calm your mind, and boost your energy. In this guide, I share with you six really simple breathing practices that work immediately. Even just one minute a day will start to make a big difference. To receive your free guide, all you have to do is click on the link in the description box below. It's, it's quite mad. At the same time, for me, it's been one of the best tools-

Africa Brooke 31:06 Yes

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 31:06 ... for my own personal self-growth.

Africa Brooke 31:08 Yes. Yes, yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 31:09 And I say to people, um, if you have a public profile in 2024 and you ain't done the work-

Africa Brooke 31:17 Mm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 31:17 ... you're gonna really struggle because you are not wired to have this many opinions about you. We, you know-

Africa Brooke 31:23 Yes

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 31:23 ... frankly, this applies to anyone, we're not wired to have this much information-

Africa Brooke 31:28 Full stop

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 31:29 ... you know, coming into our brains. You write about this in your book.

Africa Brooke 31:31 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 31:31 We, we're not designed. It's too much. It's information overloads.

Africa Brooke 31:35 Mm. Think of what that does to someone's nervous system, because even just one comment... It's that thing, right, of you could have 200 comments saying, "Rangan, your new book was incredible. Loved the podcast," et cetera. Then you just have one comment [laughs] just one, that says something that completely opposes it, something that really touches something emotive within you, and then you almost don't really feel or connect to the other 200 anymore because we have that negativity-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 32:06 Yeah

Africa Brooke 32:06 ... bias. Now imagine that happening with thousands of people telling you that you're a bad person, that you're outdated, that you're some kind of bigot. Insert whatever insult you want because online people think it's a free-for-all.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 32:20 Yeah.

Africa Brooke 32:20 People won't even think, "Actually, there's already 100 comments saying this thing. Is it necessary for me to add?" That's a little thing that I invite us all to do because it's... We don't... And a- again, I say everything that I'm saying, and we're both having this conversation from such a loving, compassionate place, but I think it's time we be more direct and real about what's actually happening.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 32:43 Yeah. Uh, I mean, for me, there's a couple of ways of looking at it.

Africa Brooke 32:45 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 32:45 One is, I don't know if you would agree with this or not, I've really come to the conclusion that criticism only bothers you to the extent you believe it about yourself.

Africa Brooke 32:57 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 32:59 That's certainly been true in my own case. Like, if I feel there's an element of truth to it, it really bothers me.

Africa Brooke 33:05 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 33:05 And so it works as a, a beautiful mirror to go, "Okay, Rangan, why is this piece of criticism bothering you?" And that could be a fantastic tool for growth and change, whereas if you just shut it down and go, "That person doesn't know what they're talking about," whatever, actually you might be losing a really fantastic opportunity to learn and grow. But I think it's very hard for people, for many people to get to that state.

Africa Brooke 33:30 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 33:30 You know, you have to do a lot [laughs]

Africa Brooke 33:32 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 33:32 ... of inner work to get to that point where you can see, where you're not dependent-

Africa Brooke 33:37 Mm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 33:37 ... on other people's views and their opinions. Uh, so I think that's one aspect of it that, that I've certainly learnt.

Africa Brooke 33:44 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 33:44 The, the, the other component though is, and I think you talk about it in the book in relation to the, the old-fashioned mobs and how those mobs still exist-

Africa Brooke 33:52 Yes

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 33:52 ... but they're online.

Africa Brooke 33:53 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 33:54 And again, this may be an uncomfortable truth for many people listening, but, but I'm gonna say it in the, in the spirit of your subtitle Brave Expression in the Age of Intolerance-

Africa Brooke 34:05 [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 34:05 ... I'm gonna say it. If you pile on people in the comments on social media, if you act in a derogatory fashion, if you think it's okay to be rude-

Africa Brooke 34:17 Mm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 34:17 ... on those platforms just because you disagree with what someone has said, well, you're part of the problem.

Africa Brooke 34:24 Yes. Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 34:26 And I, and I don't say that with any judgment. I say that with an open heart, that you are part of the problem.

Africa Brooke 34:32 Mm. I... Ooh, I really just needed to let that sit because that's the essence of really just what I'm trying to put forward. But even before that, it's the very same thing that I had to tell myself, that it could take a single moment. Because the way that we experience the digital world, you're just by yourself on your phone. There aren't 10,000 people next to you doing the same thing, sending an angry comment or being reactionary. So I think this process of dehumanization and not understanding what we're adding to happens because we interact with everything in such a solitary experience, right?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 35:12 Mm.

Africa Brooke 35:12 Which is why when you post something or say something, someone might come to the comments and berate you for not making it so specific to their life, even if you have no idea [laughs] who they are. [laughs] But it, but it's that thing. We're so, um... I think as, as the human creature, we're so self-centered in that we just think about ourselves.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 35:36 Yeah.

Africa Brooke 35:37 Right? So when we experience something online, I really think we think we've transcended these very primal things that are within us, but we assume that it's about us, when actually the creator, the person that has written the words, the person that has put out the thought, they have no idea who you are. I think it's that zooming out and really seeing the truth of the full picture, that this doesn't specifically apply to me. This wasn't written specifically with me in mind. It will resonate with someone else. And it, it, it's almost like, um, I know what I'm saying is so obvious, or at least it becomes obvious when you listen to me say it.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 36:15 Mm.

Africa Brooke 36:15 But the way we behave online, that kind of completely goes out of the window, and we just think, "Does this mirror my worldview or not?" That, "Does this echo my belief system, the opinions and ideas that I hold?" And if it doesn't, that means it's wrong by default. That means you're wrong by default. Instead of saying, "Actually, I don't agree, but this doesn't, it doesn't apply to me. It's not for me

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 36:38 There's also something that I think many, str- most of us will have witnessed, which is ... Again, we'll take it away from online in just a moment.

Africa Brooke 36:48 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 36:49 But it, but in the online world, I, I've seen it in thousands of times [laughs] where people will say really ... Not, not necessarily to me. To ... I've seen it on, on other people's platforms. "Was a really big fan, but can't follow you after this last post." You know, basically this idea that you have to like either 100% of someone-

Africa Brooke 37:15 [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 37:15 ... or 0%, which actually is a little bit childish, isn't it?

Africa Brooke 37:22 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 37:22 It's what kids do.

Africa Brooke 37:23 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 37:23 You know, you throw your toys out the pram.

Africa Brooke 37:25 Yeah. [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 37:25 Right? But it's like we're, we're acting like children in our adult lives.

Africa Brooke 37:31 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 37:31 I think many of us really are.

Africa Brooke 37:33 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 37:33 And, and here's the question to people, and I dunno what you think about this, Africa, but it's like, well, which person in your life, in your real offline life, do you agree with 100% on everything?

Africa Brooke 37:46 [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 37:48 I, I love my wife dearly-

Africa Brooke 37:50 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 37:50 ... but we don't agree on the same things. There's plenty of things we disagree on. Doesn't mean I don't love her and I wouldn't do anything for her. You know, anyone who's a parent, like when you've got adult children, I don't have that yet.

Africa Brooke 38:00 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 38:00 I've got kids of 13 and 11. But if you've got adult children, I'm betting you don't agree on everything.

Africa Brooke 38:06 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 38:06 You don't then just disown your child-

Africa Brooke 38:08 Mm-hmm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 38:08 ... because you don't agree with them. It's like, oh-

Africa Brooke 38:10 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 38:10 ... well ... And so why is it? What, what's going on with us humans that we can't apply what is really simple logic to the way we interact with people online?

Africa Brooke 38:20 Yeah. Oh, I, I just, I just love and I'm so grateful that we're having this conversation because as we speak, it's, it's almost like I can feel the relief from people because I think a lot of people have thought that they are the only ones that are spotting these issues.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 38:35 Mm.

Africa Brooke 38:35 Or that they can only talk about this privately-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 38:38 Yeah

Africa Brooke 38:38 ... behind closed doors. But-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 38:40 But just me and you here.

Africa Brooke 38:41 Yeah. [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 38:41 We're talking privately. [laughs]

Africa Brooke 38:44 But you know what? I ... This is such a perfect transition into the offline aspect of it. It's why I address the online part quite early in the book and make it very clear that it, it's very easy, it's very tempting to think that this is just online stuff.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 39:00 Mm.

Africa Brooke 39:00 You know? But actually, again, it's reflecting something that is innate within us, this inability to hold contradictions about ourselves. So I, I think we're able to hold contradictions quite naturally sometimes about the people that we know, about the people that we have grown up with, about the people who are family, the people who are friends. But for whatever reason, and this is what I want to us to explore in real time, for whatever reason, online, we start to chase this moral perfection. It's almost as if it's a way to deal with the things that we can't say offline or ... It, it feel-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 39:41 Oh, wow

Africa Brooke 39:41 ... it feels like, it's just like, um, online, we get to pretend we're perfect. Online, you don't have to be contradictory. Online, you can have the perfect opinion. Online, you can be on the right side of history. Online, you can create your own reality, whatever it looks like. You can choose who you follow, who you unfollow. But the algorithm kind of gets in the way because it's still going to serve you with people-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 40:05 Yeah

Africa Brooke 40:05 ... you disagree with. But in your real life life, especially if you haven't cultivated the courage that is so important to say, "Actually, this person is all of these things, but I love them anyway," it's almost like you, you get to express all of that online.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 40:21 Yeah.

Africa Brooke 40:21 So I, I think there's something there.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 40:23 Yeah. I think you've nailed something there, Africa.

Africa Brooke 40:25 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 40:25 It really, really landed for me. And I know when I started off this conversation talking to you about one of the most common regrets of dying people-

Africa Brooke 40:34 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 40:34 ... you said that you haven't thought about your work through that lens before. I wonder if you've thought about it through this lens or not. I think your book, The Third Perspective, could be seen as a health book.

Africa Brooke 40:48 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 40:50 The reason I say that, and these are ideas I'm exploring for my next book myself-

Africa Brooke 40:54 Yes

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 40:54 ... this idea that if the person who you really are and you know yourself to be and the person who you are being in the world are different, right? That can be a small difference. That can be a big difference, but there is a gap. A void is being created. And in that void, it is so uncomfortable for us that we will lob stuff into that void to stop us from feeling and experiencing it. So I think one of the main reasons why people can't make change that truly lasts is because it's all symptom suppression, right? We, we talk about, um, food and movement and-

Africa Brooke 41:46 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 41:46 ... sleep and stress, and I, I, I've spent years trying to talk about these things that give people options, and I think they work very-

Africa Brooke 41:52 Mm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 41:52 ... very well. But some people struggle to turn the short-term change into long-term change, and that's in my view because if you haven't addressed this deep core, um, what is it? Th- this void. If you haven't addressed it, you will keep doing things, whether with your alcohol intake-

Africa Brooke 42:14 Mm-hmm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 42:14 ... whether it's with your sugar intake, whether it's the fact that you can't be bothered to get out or move your body, just sit there-

Africa Brooke 42:20 Mm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 42:20 ... because of that void. And if you repair that void, and it is repairable, and I've repaired it in myself, maybe not completely, but-

Africa Brooke 42:29 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 42:29 ... certainly a lot more than it used to be. Actually looking after yourself, making good choices for your life and your health actually becomes quite easy.

Africa Brooke 42:40 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 42:41 You're not actually fighting anything anymore.

Africa Brooke 42:43 Yes. Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 42:44 So I dunno. That-

Africa Brooke 42:45 Oh, I love that

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 42:45 ... that's how I feel about it.

Africa Brooke 42:47 Oof

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 42:48 So it's a health book.

Africa Brooke 42:49 Oh, that's, that's... You know what's, what's so just beautifully crazy is that I was having a conversation last week with my editor, and we were having that conversation to kind of think, where does this book... Because there's so many layers, not even just the book, actually, my conversation ultimately, where does it sort of fit? Because it's philosophical in a lot of ways, but it's also intellectual, sure, exploring things that are quite abstract, right? The human condition, et cetera. But I remember saying to her that this is about health. This is about-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 43:23 Yeah

Africa Brooke 43:23 ... our health-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 43:24 It is

Africa Brooke 43:24 ... our mental wellbeing, because when you repress things in the mind or emotions, what, it will manifest in the physical. I remember in 2017 up until 2018, particularly, um, I suffered with migraines for a year consistently. And I remember these as the years where I really started to notice just how strong my self-censorship was. There was a lot of things that I wanted to say, a lot of questions that I had, especially around identity politics, my own identity, the things that I'd outgrown, different ideologies that no longer resonated. But I felt that to belong with my community, my tribe, I needed to hold onto them or always see the good in them and not question them.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 44:13 Mm-hmm.

Africa Brooke 44:14 Not point out any flaws. And I remember suffering with migraines so consistently. Then the moment that I wrote my open letter, which eventually inspired the book, I remember not experiencing that anymore. And I think we... There's this idea that, um... And I'm sure you, of course, you speak about things like this all the time, but we tend to think that everything is sort of disconnected, that it's fragmented. But that could not be further from the truth. I think sometimes we think, "But it's just communication. I just didn't say this thing. It's no big deal." But you do it once, I promise you, you will do it again and again and again and again, and you won't even notice you're doing it. But there'll be some-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 44:55 Yeah

Africa Brooke 44:55 ... kind of physical consequence, right?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 44:57 Yeah. I, I, first of all, really appreciate you sharing that.

Africa Brooke 45:00 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 45:00 I, I, you know, with all the years of medical experience I've got, that completely lands with me-

Africa Brooke 45:05 Gosh

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 45:05 ... for sure. And this doesn't mean, and you make this clear in your book, we're not talking about expressing everything to everyone.

Africa Brooke 45:11 No, no, no.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 45:12 Right? But if you don't have somewhere in your life where you can truly be yourself and express the things-

Africa Brooke 45:18 Mm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 45:18 ... that are deep inside you, you will feel it in other ways. It will come out in other ways.

Africa Brooke 45:24 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 45:24 It may come out with a fight with your partner.

Africa Brooke 45:26 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 45:26 It may come out with you behaving pretty poorly on social media because you feel that's where you can actually get it out of you or whatever it might be.

Africa Brooke 45:35 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 45:35 But actually, you know, the core is you've gotta, you've gotta sort that stuff out. You've got to be able to express yourself in some way.

Africa Brooke 45:43 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 45:43 And I think sometimes when people frustrate us that we come across online who are really outspoken, and I know you share this perspective, or I think you share elements of this perspective from reading your book. I think one of the reasons we're either put off or drawn towards them, it can be either one-

Africa Brooke 46:02 Mm-hmm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 46:02 ... is because we're like, "Wow, they just speak their truth."

Africa Brooke 46:06 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 46:07 "Wow, I wish I could do that." I've felt that before. I have felt that before-

Africa Brooke 46:11 Me too

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 46:11 ... with some people. I'm like, "Wow." And I'm not talking about that extreme where they just say everything-

Africa Brooke 46:16 No

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 46:16 ... without any care. I'm like, "Wow, you're so secure in yourself that you're able to express these views-

Africa Brooke 46:23 Mm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 46:23 ... even if you know that you're gonna get a mob after you when you say it."

Africa Brooke 46:27 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 46:27 And I'm like, "Wow."

Africa Brooke 46:28 Yes. Uh, I, I resonate with that so, so much, and I, I realize now that for me, it was a thing of me saying, "Wow, you're so free and accepting in who you are as a person." They were holding up a mirror to me, and I was seeing, you know, the, the sort of cage that I had put myself in. And I remember there are quite a few people that I can think of now who really, in the truest sense of the word, had really triggered me because of the way that they're able to really have conviction in what they say. And again, I'm not talking about extremes, neither of us are. And I think it's important to, to say that because our minds will immediately go to extremes, which is another example to me how we've started to sort of make free expression mean that it's about freedom of consequences, that you just want to say whatever you want to say with no consequences. No, that couldn't be further from the truth. And I remember when I was encountering people who were just so brave in their voice, stood by their words, were willing to withstand the criticism, listen to the criticism, and be like, "Okay, I'll sit with that and see whether that is actually true or not."

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 47:43 Mm-hmm.

Africa Brooke 47:44 Um, there was an envy, there was an admiration and an envy.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 47:47 Mm-hmm.

Africa Brooke 47:48 Because I was shown by those people, and I'm so grateful for them. Some have even become very good friends. I'm so grateful for them because they showed me that I wasn't allowing myself to fully be human. I wasn't, I wasn't. I was trying my very best to be this perfect Africa. Someone who's flawed. There were flaws that I was willing to accept, like my addiction, my own struggles with self-sabotage, allowing for my story to help me help other people, but there were still parts of myself that I was just not allowing the world to see. But for it to even get to the world, I had to see it first. I wasn't allowing myself to see it because I thought it would lead to rejection in some way. Maybe my audience will reject me, you know. Maybe the people that have become, um, fans or people that have started to admire me because of who I am now, if I show this other part of me, you know, they'll disconnect. And these things were not conscious. I wasn't saying this out loud-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 48:54 Mm

Africa Brooke 48:54 ... but this was the running commentary that allowed for me to stay in self-censorship for a very long time, and I just hold so much compassion for all of us. And the thing that you said around the void- I wrote who you are and who you want to become, right? That gap between. Um, it's so important to shine a light on that incongruence.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 49:18 Mm.

Africa Brooke 49:18 Because if we don't, I think that's when we double down on the performance because it's so uncomfortable-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 49:24 Yeah

Africa Brooke 49:24 ... to look at the truth, right? And I've seen what it looks like to double down. For a brief time, I doubled down because it was way too uncomfortable to be like, "Oh, shit, I have been out of integrity," you know? And I think a lot of us are in that middle part. Again, in a, in a third perspective in a lot of ways, where you don't have so much clarity, so much uncertainty, but you know that your current way of being, it's just not working anymore.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 49:51 Yeah.

Africa Brooke 49:51 It's just not working, and we get to change that. I think that's the most exciting thing. We actually get to change it, to become aware and say, "What if I try doing things a little bit differently?" You know?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 50:06 Mm. In one of your previous interviews-

Africa Brooke 50:08 Mm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 50:08 ... you said that honesty is the most powerful self-transformational tool.

Africa Brooke 50:14 Mm. Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 50:15 Or something to that effect.

Africa Brooke 50:16 Yes, yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 50:18 And I think honesty's a really interesting concept. If you ask anyone who's listening to this right now, "Are you an honest person," I think everyone will put their hand up and go, "Yeah, I'm, I'm honest. I'm, I'm an honest person," right? We all like to think we're honest, but there's different layers-

Africa Brooke 50:34 Mm-hmm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 50:34 ... and there's a different depth to certain, um... How can I put it? There's being honest, i.e., you don't steal. You [laughs] you know, if you find 10 pounds on the side of the street outside a shop, you go into the shop, right? There, there, there's that level of honesty.

Africa Brooke 50:51 Uh-huh.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 50:52 But there's also the honesty where you are truly, truly honest with yourself. Right now, in your book, you, you, you talk about this three-step process, as it were, awareness-

Africa Brooke 51:03 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 51:03 ... responsibility, and expression.

Africa Brooke 51:05 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 51:06 So first of all, we need to become aware. That's, that's the key step for all of us in whatever-

Africa Brooke 51:11 Yes

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 51:11 ... we want in life, right?

Africa Brooke 51:13 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 51:14 But how does honesty play into awareness, and why is honesty-

Africa Brooke 51:17 Mm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 51:17 ... so transformational in your view?

Africa Brooke 51:21 Oh, I love that. I love that. And the three, the three sort of, um, pillars and the three anchor points for even just the conversation we're having, to me, it's awareness, responsibility, and expression, and it's very intentional that it's in that order. Because when people come to me, for example, in the work that I do, they want to rush to the expression piece, and I wonder if you get this in some way with your work. Give me the strategy. Give me the six steps. What do I say? Maybe even through this conversation, someone was kind of just waiting, "Okay, so can you give us the script," you know? We're all kind of waiting for the script, and I get it, but without being aware of what's currently working or not working, how can you get to the expression piece? So then maybe you could think, "Okay, just having the awareness, what am I afraid of? Where does my resistance lie? What's working, and what's not working?" You could... So much information, right? You might think that's enough preparation to go to expression-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 52:25 Mm

Africa Brooke 52:25 ... but it's not. Responsibility is so key. Are you willing to take responsibility for all of that information that has been revealed to you, or are you going to blame? I'm repressing my speech because of cancel culture. I'm repressing my speech because other people are intolerant. I'm repressing my speech and my general expression because of X, Y, Z. There's a level of personal responsibility that is so non-negotiable with everything we're talking about. You have to take responsibility for your so-called wrong thoughts, the things that you want to share. Again, we're not talking about the extremes. We can use common sense, right? The things that you want to put forward that go against the grain a little bit.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 53:07 Mm.

Africa Brooke 53:07 In that meeting, the things that you didn't say before, are you willing to take responsibility for them now?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 53:12 Mm.

Africa Brooke 53:12 That conversation you need to have with your partner, with your children, are you willing to take responsibility for it now? So all of these three are anchor points for a reason, and where what we're talking about now sort of falls into it, the responsibility, I wanna tap into it a little bit more 'cause it reminds me of that thing you were saying around the void. I write about something called embodied values-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 53:39 Mm

Africa Brooke 53:39 ... and desired values, and it ties into the honesty piece. If you were to ask most people what they value, honesty will absolutely be one of them. Honesty, transparency, um, freedom, communication, community, uh, friendship, deep relationships. There's so many things, that if you really give someone the space and time, they'll be able to make a list. But something that I always say, and I invite you to do this now as you're listening, even write down maybe three or four, then look at the results in your life. Just take a moment to think about the results in your life in terms of your work, your relationships, how deeply you can communicate with people, um, how truly open you can be. Are you as open-minded as you think you are? Okay, let's look at the results in your life. Where is there evidence? We're looking for evidence. What is the evidence suggesting? Because for a lot of us, the values that we would list are not actually as embodied as we like to think. They're more desired. I wish I was that person. I wish I was more open-minded. I wish I was more honest. So maybe you're able to be open-minded and honest, but not, not in as many areas as the evidence actually shows, and I think that's a very cool exercise. That I put forward and invite people to always come back to. I do it all the time, because I want to be shown what is true and what am I sort of making up so I can have this perception and self-image that feels good and comfortable.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 55:18 Yeah.

Africa Brooke 55:18 Do I really value open-mindedness? Or the moment someone shows a different worldview, I shut them down immediately, I start to question who they are as a person. I don't even ask further questions to actually make sure that the assumptions that I'm making are accurate, you know? So I, I like doing that little exercise of embodied values versus desired, because I think it can-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 55:42 Yeah

Africa Brooke 55:42 ... it can get us being more honest, and also allow for us to have more effective conversations and general interactions offline and online.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 55:51 Yeah.

Africa Brooke 55:52 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 55:52 I love that. What, what a lovely exercise.

Africa Brooke 55:56 Can I ask you a question?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 55:58 Of course.

Africa Brooke 55:59 What are your values?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 56:04 As things stand today-

Africa Brooke 56:05 Mm-hmm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 56:06 ... my three most important values are curiosity-

Africa Brooke 56:12 Mm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 56:12 ... compassion, and integrity.

Africa Brooke 56:15 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 56:17 Having said that, I've been doing a lot of writing over the past few months, and my current belief is that the value which is the highest of them all is curiosity.

Africa Brooke 56:36 Mm. Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 56:37 Because I think if you really value curiosity, you embody curiosity-

Africa Brooke 56:43 Yes

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 56:43 ... you start to interact with everything in your life, external or internal, with curiosity. I kinda think compassion and, and integrity come along-

Africa Brooke 56:52 Yes

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 56:53 ... as a natural side effect of that.

Africa Brooke 56:56 Yeah. That's even better, because I like to know the why. And as you were speaking, something came to mind around how I think sometimes we confuse suspicion for curiosity.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 57:07 Hmm.

Africa Brooke 57:08 I think sometimes we think we're being curious, but actually we're listening with a very suspicious ear. And I, I write about this actually when I talk about the listening styles-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 57:17 Yeah

Africa Brooke 57:17 ... where some people kind of are more analytical in how they listen, and some people sort of listen out for, uh, words that tie to feelings. So they kind of listen with a more feeling ear, if you will.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 57:29 Mm-hmm.

Africa Brooke 57:29 But I think, and this is just coming to mind now, so thank you for igniting this thought. I think a lot of us would say that we're curious, but actually we're more suspicious. And I think the culture that we've started to create online, offline, speaks to that, that we've become a little bit ... Sort of we're scanning for offense, we're scanning for malicious intent, whereas I think curiosity is more open. Even if you're uncomfortable and you feel challenged, you, you sort of lean in energetically instead of-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 57:59 Yeah

Africa Brooke 57:59 ... pulling away. But I, I, I wonder if we confuse the two.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 58:02 It's nice. I've never heard that before. I, I really like that. I think ... I, I can see how that would be the case sometimes.

Africa Brooke 58:10 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 58:10 We, we mistake cur- curiosity for suspicion.

Africa Brooke 58:14 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 58:14 And, you know, when, when I think of ... When, when I think of curiosity, and I know I say this often on the show, but this is because it's been such a transformative way of looking at people in the world for me, and I think it very much speaks to your work-

Africa Brooke 58:32 And I haven't heard it

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 58:33 ... and you haven't heard it. If I was that person, I'd be doing exactly the same thing as them.

Africa Brooke 58:41 Oh, that's good.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 58:43 Okay. And if you haven't heard that before, what I mean by that is if I was that person, with their upbringing, with their childhood, with the bullying they had, with the friends they had, with the parents they had, et cetera, et cetera, I would absolutely be doing what they're doing-

Africa Brooke 58:56 Mm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 58:57 ... and see the world in the same way as they are. Intentionally choosing to adopt that approach has been transformative, because suddenly when you do see someone with a completely different view to you, the, the default response when you've done it enough times doesn't become, "I can't believe you said that." It's like, "Oh, I wonder why they believe that."

Africa Brooke 59:21 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 59:23 Right? Which I think very much speaks to what you're trying to say, this third perspective. Why, why does that, why does that person believe that?

Africa Brooke 59:29 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 59:29 Wow, what must have gone on in their life? And I, I will include stuff like racism in here.

Africa Brooke 59:35 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 59:35 If someone was being really racist, my first thing now ... Look, if I was in danger, of course-

Africa Brooke 59:40 Mm-hmm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 59:40 ... that would be, you know-

Africa Brooke 59:41 Mm-hmm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 59:41 ... fear would come in and I would do what I need to do to keep myself safe.

Africa Brooke 59:44 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 59:45 But actually, I'm inquisitive as to why. You know, if I grew up like that person-

Africa Brooke 59:50 Mm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 59:51 ... with the beliefs they had and maybe what their parents told them as kids, I may also think what they're thinking. Now, that doesn't mean I, uh, accept it. It doesn't mean that I think that that is the correct, um, behavior or the, or the, the right things to say.

Africa Brooke 1:00:08 Of course, yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:00:08 But I think if you first start off with curiosity and understand, then you're much better placed-

Africa Brooke 1:00:14 Mm-hmm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:00:15 ... to then actually enact change.

Africa Brooke 1:00:17 Oh, absolutely.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:00:18 Just taking a quick break to give a shout-out to Vivobarefoot shoes. Now, I've been a huge fan of Vivobarefoot for over 10 years now, well before they started supporting my podcast. They are the only shoes that I wear, and they really have had a huge impact on my own life and the lives of many of my patients. You see, when people start wearing minimalist shoes like Vivos, you can see improvements in things like back pain, hip pain, knee pain, foot pain. Even things like plantar fasciitis can often get better. And scientific research shows us that just wearing Vivos for about four months or so improves the strength in your feet by over 60%, which is absolutely incredible. One thing people don't realize about these shoes is just how flexible they are. Which allows your feet to do what your feet naturally want to do, rather than the shoe dictating your foot's movements. Vivobarefoot are giving my audience a 15% off one-time code when you make your first order, and they make it really easy for you to give them a try. They give a 100-day trial for new customers, so if you don't like them, you just send them back for a full refund. I'm a huge fan. I really hope you take advantage of this offer. To get your 15% off code, all you need to do is go to vivobarefoot.com/livemore or click on the link in the description box below.

Africa Brooke 1:01:47 Absolutely. And, uh, as you were speaking, I, I put my hand on my heart because I felt that message really sink into my body because it felt like a perfect description of empathy.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:02:00 Mm-hmm.

Africa Brooke 1:02:00 Which is, I think, is exactly what we're talking about, and it reminded me of something that I say all the time and will never stop saying it. I'm sure it's in the, the book quite a lot. Understanding does not mean agreement.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:02:12 Yeah, exactly.

Africa Brooke 1:02:12 I think we n- we need to understand that, and that's usually a point of relief to my audience and clients and the people in my life, even to myself, because I think we really believe, "If I understand this person, that means that I agree with everything they've ever done and everything they've ever said and anything they will do or say." But please, understanding does not mean agreement. We can be empathetic and have our boundaries.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:02:40 Yeah.

Africa Brooke 1:02:40 It's that thing, right? We think there are two options, [laughs] right?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:02:44 Yeah. I mean, you talk about this idea of holding multiple truths.

Africa Brooke 1:02:47 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:02:48 And I've heard you talk about your father before.

Africa Brooke 1:02:50 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:02:50 And if you, if you don't mind elaborating-

Africa Brooke 1:02:53 Of course

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:02:53 ... I think that's a, um, a really peaceful example to help us really see that-

Africa Brooke 1:02:58 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:02:58 ... two things can be true.

Africa Brooke 1:02:59 Yes. And I, I really love when I get to talk about him and to revisit my experience because the older that I get... He died when he was 40 years old.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:03:10 40?

Africa Brooke 1:03:11 40 years old, and I'm 31 now, so I'm getting closer and closer and closer-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:03:16 Mm

Africa Brooke 1:03:16 ... to the age that he was when he died, which means that I, I just connect with Maxwell the person so differently from him just being my dad, this person that I grew up with-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:03:27 Mm

Africa Brooke 1:03:27 ... this person that I experienced in one way, but by, by the time he died, it was another way. So my story and experience with my father, which I also write about, is that he was an addict. He was an addict in the later years of his life. He had a very, very bad alcohol problem, and the decline was very swift. Um, but the other side of him, he was a teacher in Zimbabwe. That's where I was born and raised. He was a teacher, and he was one of the best-dressed men that I've ever seen in my entire life, and so charming and so polite and so thoughtful, you know. That's why he loved teaching, because he was so patient in many ways, um, which was a direct contradiction to the person that he then became.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:04:14 Mm-hmm.

Africa Brooke 1:04:15 So we lived in a house where there was so much uncertainty in terms of physical safety because you didn't know what mood or state my father would be in. Are we going to be punished for something today, or is he going to come home and give us pieces of paper to draw because he wants to see our art?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:04:33 Hmm.

Africa Brooke 1:04:34 But then the next day he realizes, oh, he gave us, um, his work documents, so now there's drawings all over his work documents, and we're going to be beaten and punished for it. So there was a big sort of juxtaposition from day to day. I bring that up because when I really sat with my life story through the lens of sobriety, I've been sober now for eight years.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:04:55 Congratulations.

Africa Brooke 1:04:56 Thank you. Nine this year. Um, which is ins- I never thought I'd be able to say those words, ever. And I really learn- And looking through, looking at my story through an honest eye, also not romanticizing the reality of living in that environment, I realize that everything that I speak about today was never random or accidental.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:05:19 Mm.

Africa Brooke 1:05:20 Growing up, me and my siblings, and we speak about this to this day, I have two older sisters, one younger brother, and we have these conversations around, we're so open to the truth of the world because we had to do it in our home. We had to hold two realities where our father was just the most brilliant man, and he could also be extremely abusive, and he was also evil in my eyes for a very long time, but he was also all of these things.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:05:49 Mm-hmm.

Africa Brooke 1:05:49 And now I speak to his siblings, those who are still alive. I speak to people that grew up with him when he was a boy. I speak to my mom, and she tells stories about how they met when she was 19 and he was 20, um, when they used to go to Bob Marley concerts in Harare when he would come in the '70s. So I get to humanize him again.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:06:12 Mm.

Africa Brooke 1:06:12 I get to humanize him and remember that he wasn't always this one-dimensional person that I got to know in the later years of his life, um, and as I was becoming a preteen, you know. So I, I think that thing that I'm saying of understanding does not mean agreement. I understand my father. I understand his path to addiction. I understand that he was in a Zimbabwe that declined so quickly, and from one moment to the next, he no longer had a job. He could no longer provide in the way that he wanted to. There was so much shame around being a man and not being able to provide. There was so much resentment towards my mother that she still had a job and a good job at the time-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:06:54 Mm

Africa Brooke 1:06:54 ... so she had to be the provider. There's so much context that I have now, and I understand, and I love him, and I don't agree with his-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:07:03 Mm

Africa Brooke 1:07:03 ... behavior and what he did. So everything that I say now, um, even the thing around having empathy- For someone or for a situation or for a group of people, and still have your boundaries-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:07:15 Yeah

Africa Brooke 1:07:15 ... and still have your internal boundaries say, "I understand you, but this is what I'm choosing as my conviction."

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:07:21 Yeah.

Africa Brooke 1:07:21 "These are my values." So that's, that's where that, um, story fits in, and I, I go on in the book to talk about how I then ended up replicating my father's story in so many ways. Out of all my siblings, it was me that ended up replicating his life story, and I had to learn what it looks like to hold myself as a contradictory being, you know? Um, so yeah, that's sort of the link that leads me to exploring this work.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:07:49 Yeah. First of all, thank you for sharing so much about your father.

Africa Brooke 1:07:52 Thank you.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:07:52 Um, what you just said there, that you had to be able to hold yourself as a contradictory being.

Africa Brooke 1:08:01 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:08:02 There's something about that. Uh, uh, as I hear that, I think about perfectionism. I think about the conversations I've had on this show before with people who have studied perfectionism-

Africa Brooke 1:08:14 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:08:15 ... and that it is rapidly on the rise, not just since the social media age.

Africa Brooke 1:08:20 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:08:20 The research suggests that it's been on the rise since the 1980s, which I find really, really interesting, because I would've thought it would've massively increased because of social media.

Africa Brooke 1:08:29 Right.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:08:30 But the research I've seen, or certainly the research I've been exposed to, suggests it's been going up steadily since the 1980s. But why I think about that in relation to what you just said is because if we as a society have more perfectionistic tendencies-

Africa Brooke 1:08:48 Mm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:08:49 ... we're gonna struggle to hold those two truths about ourselves, because we either need to be all good or all bad.

Africa Brooke 1:08:56 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:08:57 We ne- either need to be honest or dishonest, or maybe we're honest in certain settings and we're dishonest in other settings.

Africa Brooke 1:09:05 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:09:05 Like, I, I've always found that, this idea that we have everything within us-

Africa Brooke 1:09:10 Mm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:09:11 ... really, really fascinating. I, I, I spoke to Robert Greene a couple of years ago on this show, and-

Africa Brooke 1:09:17 He's brilliant

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:09:17 ... y- yeah, he's, he's-

Africa Brooke 1:09:18 Gosh

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:09:18 ... wonderful, and I relayed to him the conversation I had with Matthew McConaughey on, on this podcast many years ago now.

Africa Brooke 1:09:25 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:09:27 And I never forgot this idea what Matthew said to me. Matthew, as if I know him. You know, I spoke to him-

Africa Brooke 1:09:31 You do [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:09:31 ... on the show [laughs] . I want to call him a friend.

Africa Brooke 1:09:34 You, you could've said Matt.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:09:35 Matt.

Africa Brooke 1:09:35 [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:09:36 Yeah. So I said Matthew. I [laughs] I, exactly. But he ... You know, I had always assumed that when you are acting and you get a new role, you have to get into character. You have to imagine, "How would that person act and speak?"

Africa Brooke 1:09:53 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:09:53 And he said, "No, no, no. When I'm being offered a new role or when I'm preparing for that role, I have to find where that person exists within me."

Africa Brooke 1:10:05 Ah, that's good.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:10:07 It was ... Honestly, I, I, I, I always think about that because I think, "Wow, we've got everything within us."

Africa Brooke 1:10:13 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:10:14 We just don't like to acknowledge it. It speaks to honesty. In fact, have you seen that film, The Zone of Interest?

Africa Brooke 1:10:20 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:10:21 I think this speaks to what you're saying. Gabor Maté told me a few weeks ago to watch it when he was in London. He said, "Rangan, you've got to watch this." Just one of the most remarkable things I've ever seen.

Africa Brooke 1:10:33 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:10:33 You know? That, that, that the guy living next door to Auschwitz in charge of the mechanics of all the murders, but when he comes home, he's the most loving-

Africa Brooke 1:10:50 Right

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:10:50 ... dad.

Africa Brooke 1:10:51 Right.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:10:52 Sits there, plays with his daughter, patient with her, goes canoeing with his kids at the weekend, showing them a really great time.

Africa Brooke 1:11:00 Loves animals. The relationship-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:11:02 Yeah

Africa Brooke 1:11:02 ... he has with his horse. I- if anyone who's listening to this has not seen The Zone of Interest-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:11:07 You gotta watch it

Africa Brooke 1:11:07 ... please do. Rangan, I, I went to watch it three times.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:11:11 Oh.

Africa Brooke 1:11:12 I went to watch it three times because I don't know that I've ever seen a piece of art that really shows you the importance of not only you the audience member holding multiple truths about the characters that you're witnessing, but it was a demonstration in people that were holding multiple realities quite tangibly.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:11:32 Yeah.

Africa Brooke 1:11:32 And the sort of, um, the sort of message of morality in there as well, and the sort of human shadow and the, again, the relationship of the lead character with his animals, and yet still doing something that is so ... Ah. Thank you for bringing that up, because I think ... You know something that I think all the time, I, I just think we need to have a bigger, even bigger appreciation for art and artistic expression. It's now more than ever. Because I think art can speak to the things-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:12:09 Mm

Africa Brooke 1:12:09 ... that sometimes we're not able to understand in this overly intellectualized-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:12:13 Yeah

Africa Brooke 1:12:13 ... abstract way. But the thing is, there's so many artists that message me probably every single day, really high level, hyper-famous people, and people that are just starting out, that are censoring themselves, that feel as if they can't put their script out into the world because they're a white person and they've written a Black character. People that think they're going to be ripped to shreds because what they have to say might be deemed problematic two years on.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:12:40 And, well-

Africa Brooke 1:12:40 Oof

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:12:40 ... let's just be clear on that. They may be ripped to shreds.

Africa Brooke 1:12:42 Yes, yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:12:43 But, but I guess your message is, is yes, you may be ripped to shreds-

Africa Brooke 1:12:46 Mm-hmm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:12:46 ... but you should do it-

Africa Brooke 1:12:48 Oh, abs-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:12:48 ... anyway?

Africa Brooke 1:12:48 Absolutely. Absolutely. Art, it's another place that I'm very interested in, because I think throughout history there've always been ... We've always protected artists. And again, I'm not talking about the extremes. We can apply sort of the, the, um, gems of common sense that have been shared through this conversation, but I think we've always seen artists as people that absolutely need to express themselves through times of war, through times of adversity, through times of when as people we don't really have the language to articulate-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:13:20 Mm

Africa Brooke 1:13:20 ... what is happening in the culture or around us. We need people that can stand for joy, people that stand for freedom, people that stand for expression and courage and bravery and, um- ... escaping in a way that is healthy. But when you start to have artists being so afraid of sharing a really non-controversial piece of art, and everything becomes the same. That's why a movie like Zone of Interest-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:13:46 Mm

Africa Brooke 1:13:46 ... really stands out. When was the last time-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:13:48 Yeah

Africa Brooke 1:13:48 ... we saw something so brave?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:13:50 Yeah. It, it was remarkable.

Africa Brooke 1:13:52 Right?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:13:52 I mean, when artists are not allowed to share their art, that is probably one of the-

Africa Brooke 1:13:55 Mm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:13:55 ... signs of a sick society, right?

Africa Brooke 1:13:57 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:13:57 We, we can't really have that. It reminds me of Rick Rubin, the legendary-

Africa Brooke 1:14:02 The creator of that

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:14:02 ... record producer.

Africa Brooke 1:14:03 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:14:03 Yeah, the, the, the book The Creator, it's wonderful, and he said it to me when he came on the show. He said, "Insecurity is only a hindrance when it stops you sharing something inside your heart." And I, and I thought about that this morning because I thought about your work, and what you're essentially saying, or one of the things you're saying, the way I hear it, is that you have to be able to express yourself, okay? The person who you are is worthy of expression. The people around you-

Africa Brooke 1:14:35 Mm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:14:35 ... are not gonna truly know you if you hide yourself from them.

Africa Brooke 1:14:39 Yes. It, it's, it's what you said too in a different way, which is why I love that with all of this, even just shifting the language still speaks to the same thing, of not being over attached to the response of other people to the point where you adjust your speech, change your art, change an entire book just in case people push back. You have to be willing... I think of it as emotional risks. You're going to experience so many different emotions and feelings before you do something courageous and brave. I think we have this idea that when you're doing something courageous, it's going to feel good. It's going to feel good, you're going to feel that exhilaration, and you're going to move towards it. But a lot of the time, you only get the, those feelings after you do the courageous thing, after you do the brave thing. But we think we need to feel it first before we do it.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:15:31 Mm-hmm.

Africa Brooke 1:15:31 To me, a lot of this is, is about not assuming what will happen. Don't assume that there's going to be pushback. There might be. Create a reality where there might be, but why does that have to be the default?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:15:46 Mm. Yeah. One, one of my, o- one of my [laughs] favorite quotes in your book, a- and there are many-

Africa Brooke 1:15:56 Mm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:15:56 ... is in the third section. So first section on awareness, second section on responsibility, third section on expression.

Africa Brooke 1:16:03 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:16:03 "What are you prepared to risk to remain faithful to yourself?"

Africa Brooke 1:16:10 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:16:12 That's it in a nutshell really, isn't it? That's... You could really put it all into that quote.

Africa Brooke 1:16:17 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:16:17 Like, what are you prepared to risk to remain faithful to yourself? And if we think about the regrets of the dying, clearly for many people, they end up in a position where they were not prepared to risk-

Africa Brooke 1:16:30 Mm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:16:30 ... anything-

Africa Brooke 1:16:31 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:16:32 ... to remain faithful to themselves. Hence, they have those regrets on their deathbeds.

Africa Brooke 1:16:36 Right. Ah. You know what? One thing that I was prepared to risk, quite a few things actually I realized that I was really okay with risking this, especially being in the unique position we've spoken about, someone that shares publicly, and someone that has built a community and a platform and a reputation. A lot of this is about reputation. We don't want to lose our reputation.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:17:01 Mm.

Africa Brooke 1:17:02 I was willing to risk popularity. I hadn't realiz- I had to be so honest about the fact that when I was self-censoring and agreeing with things that I didn't actually agree with, I was prioritizing popularity over truth. I really, again, I had this idea and this story that I'm a truthful, open-minded person. But the results in my life... Remember earlier when I was saying, "Just look at the results in your life through an honest lens, not through sort of fantasy, the idea of the fantasy self. Just look at what is, not what you want it to be."

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:17:38 Mm.

Africa Brooke 1:17:39 My results showed me that I couldn't even be myself with my audience. I'd put myself in a golden cage. I'd created an audience that was never going to allow me to change my mind, so I needed to get on stage and perform. No one else would've been able to tell, 'cause I was still saying things that are brave, things that are still open, but I, I know myself enough to know that this was n- this was not remotely aligned to what my values were and my actual behavior. I was in that void that you're speaking of-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:18:10 Mm

Africa Brooke 1:18:10 ... getting on stage and performing. So for me, I had to be very honest about the fact that if I want to be free, the risk that I'm willing to take is I'm willing to lose the popularity. I'm willing to lose clients that think maybe they're not aligned anymore. I'm okay with that. I have to be okay with that, and losing clients means financial loss in some way. But I trusted myself enough to know that, you know what? I will always be okay. I was willing to lose an audience that needed me to perform a certain version of myself. I was willing to lose misaligned relationships. And you know what the beautiful thing is? I never had to lose anything. I didn't lose any friends, and if I did, it might have happened so silently that I didn't even notice that there were people that maybe I knew, had association with-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:18:59 Mm

Africa Brooke 1:18:59 ... but not close enough for me to feel any change. I gained so much, an audience that understood my, um, that understood my, my multidimensional nature, that they don't expect me to be a singular being. That where they meet me, whatever post they find or podcast they find is going to be that Africa that I promise to be. No.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:19:22 Mm.

Africa Brooke 1:19:22 They know that things will change. I explore things out loud. I grow, I shift, I focus on different things at a time. Just the freedom that I gave to myself, but there was so much discomfort, initial discomfort for a little while, that came with me being like, "Okay, I'm-" I'm willing to risk these things. And I know the examples I've just given can feel like they're just for people that are in the public, people that are hyper-visible, but that's, that's not the case, and in the book, I make that very clear. I, um, put forward this thing that I call a, um, risk assessment framework, where you get to be very clear on what it is you're willing to risk in your everyday life. Because I, I think our risk levels will be so different. Some people can tolerate more than others. Some people can tolerate the loss of popularity, and an audience, and clients, and financial loss. Some people, they can't do all of that at the same time, and I, I get that. That's why you get to define it for yourself. But if you're not willing to lose anything, then you will stay in the golden cage. You will.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:20:29 To play devil's advocate, then.

Africa Brooke 1:20:30 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:20:33 Uh, and y- I guess you've covered a little bit of it just there, but if someone's hearing you and going, "Okay, Africa, well, you were prepared-

Africa Brooke 1:20:39 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:20:39 ... to risk popularity and clients-

Africa Brooke 1:20:42 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:20:43 ... and maybe financial rewards-

Africa Brooke 1:20:46 Mm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:20:46 ... maybe you were in a position to be able to risk those things. I can't where I am in life at the moment. I need to keep my mouth shut.

Africa Brooke 1:20:56 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:20:56 I need not to express my opinions because it's, it could risk me my job or my relationship or whatever. You know, we don't know the ins and outs of people's lives.

Africa Brooke 1:21:06 Absolutely.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:21:08 Right? So for that person who's skeptical and going, "I get what you're saying, but it doesn't apply to me," can you make the case as to why it might apply to them?

Africa Brooke 1:21:17 Mm. The first thing that I would invite the person to do is to notice that they've just used a lot of absolutist binary language. This idea that, "If I do this, then this is going to happen, full stop. If I speak and say what I really want to say, this is going to happen." So they're being very absolutist in it, right? Not even that there's a possibility it might happen. If I say this thing on Instagram versus actually having a private conversation. There, there's no nuance. It's been put forward in a very absolutist way. "Good for you, I can't because of this." So that's something that I would just gently bring awareness to.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:21:57 Mm.

Africa Brooke 1:21:57 Because the language that we use when we speak about the thing we're experiencing or the decision that we want to make, it either allows for you to see some options available to you, even one little option tucked away there in the corner, or to see no option at all. I would say, first I always want to know with people, what is the thing that you want to say, that you think if you say it [laughs] right? 'Cause sometimes-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:22:20 Yeah

Africa Brooke 1:22:20 ... when you ask people and they tell you, then you're like, "Surely." [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:22:24 That's a really good point.

Africa Brooke 1:22:26 Right? So-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:22:26 We make these things so big.

Africa Brooke 1:22:28 [laughs] I will lose my home, I'll lose my children, I'll lose every- I always ask people when I work with them, and even my audience, "What is this thing that you want to say?" You know. And sometimes, you know what's interesting? People don't really know-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:22:42 Mm

Africa Brooke 1:22:43 ... what it is that they want to say. 'Cause they're sort of thinking about all of the different moments in which they didn't speak up, and sort of putting that all into this-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:22:51 In one go

Africa Brooke 1:22:51 ... one, into one go. That's actually usually the common story. But then I would also think, okay, maybe you're thinking that you need to do this online, which I promise you, a lot of people are starting to think that it means you have to share it online to declare that you've unraveled self-censorship and you're speaking up and you're standing up, that it needs to happen online. It's why I stress in the book, and I hope this can be a point of relief, online should not be your first training ground, your interpersonal relationships. So that thing that you want to say and you think, "But if I say this, I'll lose my job," you're thinking that you need to walk into the office, stand on the reception desk and say, "I have something to say."

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:23:32 [laughs]

Africa Brooke 1:23:32 No. [laughs] That's not what we're saying. And I use humor a lot of the time because I think, um, it kind of makes you realize, huh, okay, I, I guess I sort of ca- created this story. But then I can also think, is there maybe a private conversation you can have? Surely there's even one person in your office that you can start to say, "Hey, I've been thinking about this thing," or, "Something doesn't qui- feel quite right about this." Do you have an online community? Even engaging with, um, comments on certain videos, and I'm not talking Instagram comments or anything, but even podcasts. There's so many wise shares that people put, you know.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:24:12 Mm.

Africa Brooke 1:24:12 People share their stories. Could it be helpful for you to engage with other people's stories so you see what kind of everyone's thinking is-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:24:19 Mm

Africa Brooke 1:24:19 ... so you don't feel so alone? Could you talk with your partner? I think we shut out all of the other options, all of the other people we can-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:24:26 Yeah

Africa Brooke 1:24:26 ... speak with, you know, and come to this conclusion of, good for you. If I do this, then this will happen. What have you tried?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:24:34 Yeah. One of the things I love the most about your book is there's lots of really, really good practical exercises.

Africa Brooke 1:24:42 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:24:42 So for anyone who's interested or they think, "You know, I heard something where I think, yeah, I think I self-censor. I don't feel as though I'm someone who has the courage to say what I think in many different settings, so I, I keep quiet."

Africa Brooke 1:24:55 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:24:55 "And I'm thinking about it when I'm in bed at night." Well, you have lots of beautiful exercises. One of them is about, as you just mentioned, practicing with a friend or, or someone who's trusted.

Africa Brooke 1:25:05 Absolutely.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:25:05 I thought that was such a... It's so simple, it's so obvious after you've read it.

Africa Brooke 1:25:09 I know. I know.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:25:10 But until you've read it, it's not obvious. You could go to your partner and say, "Hey, listen, I struggle to speak up at work. Can we just practice for the next half hour? Could we go through-

Africa Brooke 1:25:20 Mm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:25:20 ... let's choose a topic where we've got," and it's one of your exercises, got different views, "and I just wanna practice how it might be to put forward my view."

Africa Brooke 1:25:27 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:25:28 I think, I mean, such a simple but- Beautiful exercise to do, isn't it?

Africa Brooke 1:25:33 Thank you. Oh, I, I'm, I'm so glad exercises like that stood out. And you're so right. This book, I, I wanted to make sure that it's not a memoir, that it's not a rant on what's happening culturally, people just need to speak up. There's... It's much more nuanced than that. And I wanted to make sure that it's not a one-size-fits-all. You should do this, and then you should do this. I want you to have a little think. Can I make it so fun? So I find role-playing to be just a really fun and revealing exercise.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:26:04 Mm.

Africa Brooke 1:26:04 Because you get to see yourself speaking in a way that you wouldn't normally speak.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:26:09 Mm.

Africa Brooke 1:26:09 But I think sometimes we think we need to wait for these profound mammoth moments where we can practice courage. But what if you're just doing it while you're waiting for the kettle to boil? And you say, "By the way, there's this thing that I read. Can we just practice this for a moment?"

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:26:23 Mm.

Africa Brooke 1:26:23 "There's a conversation I want to have. Can you and I have a little riff out loud?"

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:26:27 Mm.

Africa Brooke 1:26:28 There's so many little things we can do, and I, I want everything to be manageable. Because what I find when we're having these big conversations around expression or health or self-censorship or the art of speaking, when you're inspired and motivated, you're good to go. But then the n- next minute, you have to go and pick up the kids. You have to do the washing.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:26:51 Mm.

Africa Brooke 1:26:51 You have so many things to do. You have to go to work. And then you put it to the side, and then it starts to feel very overwhelming, because where do you even begin? So I like to give the big stuff, even in conversation, but it also needs to be tethered to the reality of people's lives. So I like those little micro-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:27:08 Mm

Africa Brooke 1:27:08 ... moments and kind of little micro exercises we can do in conversation.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:27:14 Yeah. It's, um... They're, they're really great, those practical exercises, and I mean, there's a few in there which I'm definitely gonna spend a bit of time on.

Africa Brooke 1:27:22 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:27:22 'Cause I just... They, they really, they really get you thinking.

Africa Brooke 1:27:25 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:27:25 You think... And you're very open, say, "This one's actually gonna take you probably 30 to 40 minutes."

Africa Brooke 1:27:29 Yes. [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:27:29 Right?

Africa Brooke 1:27:30 Yep.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:27:30 It ain't a quick five-minute one. And that's okay, 'cause then you can make sure you've got that time and go-

Africa Brooke 1:27:34 Exactly

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:27:35 ... okay.

Africa Brooke 1:27:35 Exactly.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:27:36 You know? And I, and I think a lot of them, well, many of them speak to this idea about our fictional values [laughs] and our actual values, right? You know-

Africa Brooke 1:27:49 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:27:49 ... you said it much more eloquently than that.

Africa Brooke 1:27:51 No, but that's it.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:27:52 But, but, you know, where we bluff ourselves.

Africa Brooke 1:27:53 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:27:54 We do bluff ourselves all the time.

Africa Brooke 1:27:55 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:27:55 We kid ourselves about who we really are, without actually looking at it going, "Actually, you know what? I didn't really show up-

Africa Brooke 1:28:02 That's it

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:28:02 ... in that way." I'm a huge fan of little daily reflections-

Africa Brooke 1:28:07 Mm-hmm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:28:07 ... personally.

Africa Brooke 1:28:08 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:28:08 [gentle music] So many patients tell me that life just feels like a blur because of the pressures that so many of us face. The busyness, the overwhelm, the endless to-do list. I've heard it time and time again. Why haven't things changed? Why can't I bring these healthy habits into my life and make them stick? I've been a medical doctor for over two decades, and I have to say, one of the most transformative practices I have ever seen is the practice of journaling. Because it breaks the loop. We have these unconscious patterns, these subconscious patterns running our lives. We don't realize how many anxieties and worries and concerns we have whirring around. And journaling is a very simple way to get the stuff out of your brain. You get it down to paper, and you see it. And that does something really, really powerful. When does a new diet that you are following fall by the wayside? When does the new healthy habit that you were sticking to start to fall off track? That's the self-awareness that journaling is gonna give you. When people ask the right questions, they get the right answers, and those right answers allow them to change their life. Take up journaling today and watch your life start to change. Like, two questions I've, I've often encouraged my patients to ask themselves over the years in the evening is, what went well today, and what can I do differently tomorrow?

Africa Brooke 1:29:38 Oh, I love that.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:29:39 That... It's so simple, but they're a very... They're a very simple way of asking yourself where you might be able to improve-

Africa Brooke 1:29:52 Mm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:29:52 ... in a way, I think, that's compassionate and non-judgmental.

Africa Brooke 1:29:55 Yes. Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:29:56 It's not beating yourself up. It's going, "You know what? You know, I said I was gonna prioritize my health this week, but I ended up having a takeaway on the way home. Okay, why did that happen? Oh, you know what? I didn't take a break at lunch. I was knackered."

Africa Brooke 1:30:09 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:30:09 "I was exhausted. I just couldn't face it." Okay, cool.

Africa Brooke 1:30:12 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:30:12 So you were stressed-

Africa Brooke 1:30:13 Mm-hmm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:30:13 ... and that was your thing to manage the stress. Okay. Let's be honest about it. Let's just not-

Africa Brooke 1:30:17 Yes

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:30:17 ... pretend you're a bad person for doing it. You weren't a bad person. You needed a way of managing stress. Fine. So tomorrow, can you do something differently in your day which will mean in the evening you don't feel the need to go and have an unhealthy takeaway?

Africa Brooke 1:30:32 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:30:32 You know? And it, it's the same kind of message really, isn't it?

Africa Brooke 1:30:36 Yeah. I, I, I really appreciate hearing that, because you're so right. It's... This is not about beating yourself up based on what's revealed to you, and I think sometimes we naturally have a tendency to do that. But I think a lot of us think in order to do the very deep rewarding work, that we need to kind of, um, really shame our past selves, the versions of us-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:30:59 Mm

Africa Brooke 1:30:59 ... that had it so wrong, the versions of us that didn't have the information. Which is why I love the idea, I think... Have you read The Untethered Soul?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:31:07 I have.

Africa Brooke 1:31:07 Oh.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:31:08 I love it.

Africa Brooke 1:31:08 It's one of my favorite books. One of my favorite books-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:31:11 Michael Singer, isn't it?

Africa Brooke 1:31:12 He's absolutely brilliant. That book was another book that allowed for me to just start thinking differently and showed me that I can be the observer. I don't have to take every single thought as fact. Every single discomfort or fear or resistance, I don't have to believe it and make it mean this is who I am, full stop. So if anything is revealed to you through either the questions that I have in the book or even the questions of what didn't go so well, it's not an opportunity to chastise yourself.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:31:41 Mm.

Africa Brooke 1:31:41 It's just like, huh, isn't that interesting? Okay, so what can we do differently? If you realize that you self-censor more than you thought- Get so curious and excited about that, 'cause now you know something you didn't. You can do something you didn't know you could do

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:31:57 On that topic, then-

Africa Brooke 1:31:58 Mm-hmm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:31:58 ... if we look back at your 10-year period where you struggled with alcohol-

Africa Brooke 1:32:06 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:32:06 ... which you've spoken openly about o- on many occasions on many podcasts. I know we haven't gone into huge amount of detail on that today.

Africa Brooke 1:32:13 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:32:16 As a 31-year-old now, I'd love to know how you look back on that time in your life.

Africa Brooke 1:32:20 Hmm. You know, I was just speaking about this yesterday with a friend who is also on their sober journey, and I was saying that I think because of this thing of holding multiple truths, something that I didn't have language for up until six years ago, to be able to say that simply, it's actually something that I've always had. Because when I started sharing my story, even publicly, I was always able to acknowledge the addiction. I was always able to acknowledge the things that came with it that I write about, the compulsive lying, the, uh, promiscuity, the kleptomania. Kleptomania was an interesting one, because it didn't even ha- have to be anything big that I would just take or steal. I was trying to regain control because I'd lived in such an environment where I had no control whatsoever, so it would feel like taking something gave me that sense of control. Um, and it completely stopped when I was probably 17, but it w- it was something that was very much a part of my story, especially when I was drinking in the way that I did. So there were so many things, and so much more. There were so many things that I was able to own up to and not hide in the shadows, and say, "Actually, I did this. This is the person that I was." But also, without that version of Africa, I wouldn't have realized just how creative I am. I only felt able and comfortable to express myself when I was drunk or when I was high, because I felt so afraid of sort of-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:33:57 Mm-hmm

Africa Brooke 1:33:57 ... being seen. So I would only really allow myself to be seen if I was under the influence, and I thank that version of Africa that was in such destruction, because she was able to really go out there and allow for her talents to be seen.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:34:12 Mm.

Africa Brooke 1:34:12 Sure, she went about it the wrong way. We can look at it now and say it was the wrong way, but she showed me this sort of wild, expressive nature, someone who didn't care, someone ... And not didn't care in the way of disregarding people, but just didn't have all of these stories. And when I got sober, I realized that those things were within me anyway.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:34:34 Yeah.

Africa Brooke 1:34:34 I was giving alcohol all the credit, but she was that person anyway. She just thought she needed that, but I could have never known that if I didn't walk that very specific path. I would never have known, um, the importance of being a reliable person if I hadn't gone through a phase of being so unreliable that people walked away from me. I would have never known the importance of community if I hadn't had people hold me in early recovery and to be in the rooms and tell me that I wasn't a bad person because of that decade. So I look at, at so many things, um, through such a loving and honest eye, you know? And also, Rangan, I, I had so much fun. I think the reason why I don't miss [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:35:22 [laughs]

Africa Brooke 1:35:22 The reason why I don't miss drinking or any of that is because I, I did it. I don't have to do it again.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:35:28 Yeah.

Africa Brooke 1:35:28 I could be in a different environment, but I, I'm not going to get anything new. Um, so I just, I, I adore that girl. She got so many things wrong, but it's fine, because we've fixed it now. And again, it's the thing of understanding, not agreement. I don't agree with a lot of her behaviors, but I completely understand her.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:35:44 Yeah.

Africa Brooke 1:35:45 Oh, I, I absolutely love her.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:35:47 Yeah.

Africa Brooke 1:35:47 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:35:47 I love that. Thank you for sharing that. That's a, that's ... I think that's awesome, because I don't think it's helpful for any of us to look back on our past, whatever we might have done-

Africa Brooke 1:35:57 Mm-hmm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:35:57 ... with guilt-

Africa Brooke 1:35:58 Mm-hmm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:35:58 ... or shame, or dare I say it, even regret.

Africa Brooke 1:36:02 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:36:03 And I think that regret is a form of perfectionism. I really do believe that more and more. I know everyone may not share that view, but to me, the way I see regrets, which has a negative tinge to it, "I wish I'd," you know, "I, I should've been able to act differently. I w- I, I should've known." Well, no, I didn't know. I was doing the best I could.

Africa Brooke 1:36:25 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:36:26 I did the best I could then. You, you know, 14-year-old Africa was doing the best that she could to navigate the world. Sure, you know better now, but you didn't back then.

Africa Brooke 1:36:34 No.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:36:34 And I think that perfectionism, that belief that we could have done better, I just think it's really harmful, because, A, it's been and gone.

Africa Brooke 1:36:45 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:36:46 There's no point living your life in the past, thinking, "I should've done differently." You didn't do differently.

Africa Brooke 1:36:51 You didn't.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:36:52 All you got is now. It's like, oh, you know what? There's plenty of things I've done in my life that if I came across those situations now, I would do differently.

Africa Brooke 1:37:00 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:37:01 I would do differently.

Africa Brooke 1:37:02 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:37:02 But I don't regret what I did-

Africa Brooke 1:37:04 No

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:37:04 ... 'cause I wouldn't have learnt what I now know had I not done them, which is kinda what you're saying.

Africa Brooke 1:37:09 Oh, yeah, exactly. It, it reminds me of when, um, people ask me sometimes, they might say, "So Africa, if you were to go back to that time in your life and sort of give advice to your younger self," and I really do laugh every time, because I'm like, "Do you think she would've listened? Do you think that if I go back [laughs] to the past and try and impart some words of ... She wouldn't have listened." It, it wasn't, it, that wasn't her season.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:37:38 Yeah.

Africa Brooke 1:37:38 That wasn't her message. That wasn't-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:37:40 Yeah

Africa Brooke 1:37:40 ... her timeline, you know? And I think it's nice to have this idea that I can go back and sit next to younger me and I say, "You don't have to do this."

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:37:48 [laughs]

Africa Brooke 1:37:48 And she's like You know what, lady? You're right. No.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:37:52 No.

Africa Brooke 1:37:53 No. And it's, it's, it's okay. That was her, that was her part. [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:37:57 Do, do you know why here, though, where as a parent when I, when I hear that-

Africa Brooke 1:38:00 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:38:01 ... I have so much conflict-

Africa Brooke 1:38:02 [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:38:02 ... going into my head because I know the most important things I've learnt in life have come from discomforts, they've come from heartache, they've come from, you know, unpleasant things happening-

Africa Brooke 1:38:15 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:38:15 ... let's say. But then I look at my kids, and I wanna protect them from all that.

Africa Brooke 1:38:20 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:38:21 Even though I know that actually that's where you gain your wisdom. And, and I know-

Africa Brooke 1:38:27 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:38:27 ... that's ... and also, I need to learn to let go a bit and go, "You know what? It's their life, and they will go on their journey."

Africa Brooke 1:38:33 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:38:33 All I can try and do is, is ground them and provide a safe and a secure-

Africa Brooke 1:38:39 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:38:40 ... an upbringing for them as I possibly can, as my wife possibly can together. But it also just, I guess it humbles me to know, man, you know, the kids are getting older-

Africa Brooke 1:38:52 Yeah. [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:38:52 ... and at some point they're gonna go on their journey.

Africa Brooke 1:38:53 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:38:54 Do you know what I mean? How was it for your mom when you were doing all this?

Africa Brooke 1:38:56 Ooh. Oh, that's such a, such a brilliant question. No one has ever asked me that before. No one has ever asked me that question before. For my mom, it was very difficult because in our culture, there's so much conflict avoidance. You just don't speak about certain things, and I have a feeling that's very similar to your culture too, where some things could be very obvious, especially things like alcoholism. It's never add- ... It is so starkly obvious. You have that uncle. You have that whatever. You s- you see it, but you don't talk about it. And something that was always the case, especially gr- growing up in a Christian household, is that you pray it away. You're not told directly, but that is what you do. You pray it away, or you go to church, or you see someone privately in church. There's no AA. There's no recovery rooms. There's nothing like that. So it was very difficult for my mom to address my problem because I was replicating my father's journey. So to her, and we can speak about it now, which is so beautiful, because through my healing, we've been able to heal as a family, which has been huge. Now she can tell me that it was very difficult for her to even know how to approach me with it because she was seeing her husband. She was seeing the man that she had known-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:40:16 Mm-hmm

Africa Brooke 1:40:16 ... since she was a teenager and what he had become, and now she was seeing her 14, 19, 20, 21-year-old daughter go through the exact same thing, but we'd never had the language in our family-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:40:29 Mm

Africa Brooke 1:40:29 ... to talk about it, ever. And she wasn't a confrontational person, but it would come through, through passive aggressiveness, silent treatment, not really talking to me maybe for a couple of days, or me not speaking to her, and then we sort of click back into it, and then the cycle repeats and repeats and repeats. Apart from the one time where she told me, and I understood why she had to tell me this. She told me that she could see Maxwell, my dad, that I'm exactly like Maxwell, and she didn't say it in an aggressive, rageful way. She was just saying what she can see. She was so heartbroken. I think I hadn't been home for maybe a week-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:41:07 Mm

Africa Brooke 1:41:07 ... and hadn't told her about it. Um, and she had to open the door for me at 4:00 in the morning and didn't ask any questions, but she told me that I was exactly like my father. And I didn't push back. I knew 'cause I'd seen it, you know. Um, and that's actually one moment that sticks in my mind as a moment of recognition that something is very, very wrong, that I'm not able to drink like most people, that there's something h- that happens to me that doesn't happen to everyone else. Not everyone blacks out for up to six hours every time that they drink. Um, not everyone has to spend the next few days trying to piece together what they did three nights ago.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:41:50 Mm.

Africa Brooke 1:41:50 You know? Um, so for my mother, I realize now through so much conversation, the, the very same but different techniques that I bring up in this book is the exact same conversations I've needed to have with my family, deep questioning, humanizing my mother, realizing that she's Jennifer. She wasn't born to be my mum, you know. And realizing, oh my goodness, she's had to deal with this in a different timeline, and now she has to deal with it with her daughter. I get why-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:42:20 Yeah

Africa Brooke 1:42:20 ... there were things she couldn't say, you know. But thank y- no one has ever asked me that question, so thank you.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:42:27 I mean, thank you for sharing that. I then reflect on what we've just been talking about, which is through our lens or your lens, right?

Africa Brooke 1:42:40 Yeah. Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:42:40 So that 10-year period was great for you in so many ways-

Africa Brooke 1:42:45 Mm-hmm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:42:45 ... because of this, but what did it do to your mom?

Africa Brooke 1:42:49 What it ... Gosh, yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:42:51 And how many of the tools in your new book might have been useful, I guess, for your mom?

Africa Brooke 1:42:57 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:42:58 Because she didn't have a language to navigate it. She's seeing her darling-

Africa Brooke 1:43:01 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:43:01 ... daughter get smashed all the time, disappear. You know, I mean, I literally cannot imagine if that was one of my kids.

Africa Brooke 1:43:08 Honestly.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:43:09 Right?

Africa Brooke 1:43:09 And, and, uh, and a girl.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:43:11 And a girl.

Africa Brooke 1:43:12 Young girl in London.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:43:13 Yeah. So it's just interesting to think about that-

Africa Brooke 1:43:15 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:43:16 ... so that's what that might have been. You mentioned culture. Just over a year ago, I shared a reel that I know you saw-

Africa Brooke 1:43:25 Oh, yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:43:25 ... 'cause you commented on it.

Africa Brooke 1:43:26 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:43:27 I had this wonderful conversation with someone called Batya Mesquita, and in it I shared with her, we were talking about cultural differences, and she talks about I cultures and we cultures.

Africa Brooke 1:43:38 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:43:38 I cultures, which are very me focused, but a lot of we cultures that exist around the world, where you are a reflection of your family. You are a reflection of the community. So, you know, the, the way they look-

Africa Brooke 1:43:49 Yes

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:43:49 ... at things, the way they articulate things. And in that conversation I shared with her that when I was at university, if I ever came back ... home to the northwest of England, I was at University of Edinburgh, having enjoyed a bit too much of the good life, let's say.

Africa Brooke 1:44:04 [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:44:05 My mom would have no qualms about saying, "What have you been doing? You- you- you look fat at the moment." Now, she might have said that in Bengali, her words might have been different, but we put that out as a reel on Instagram to say, "I know that my mom meant nothing offensive by that."

Africa Brooke 1:44:25 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:44:25 She genuinely, and to this day I still believe this is the case, genuinely thought, "He's not looking after himself."

Africa Brooke 1:44:32 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:44:32 "I better tell him." And it actually worked.

Africa Brooke 1:44:35 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:44:35 It did somewhere, so I was like, "Oh, yeah, Mom's right, actually."

Africa Brooke 1:44:37 Right.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:44:37 I have put... You know, we put it-

Africa Brooke 1:44:39 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:44:39 ... out on Instagram and what the comments were so fascinating, and I think in many ways they speak to what you're trying to get out there. So some people were saying thank you. Other people were, you know, just going at me saying, "Dr. Chatterjee, I'm highly surprised that you think that is ever okay in any situation." And some people were saying, "Well, that's abuse." Um, I thought, "That's remarkable to be able to call someone else's parent an abuser from a 60-second Instagram reel." I think it's [laughs] it's kind of... It's like I- I do find it interesting to observe what happens. Now-

Africa Brooke 1:45:19 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:45:19 ... to be really clear, I respect everyone's right to have a different view on that. To some people, they think it's never ever okay to comment on someone else's appearance, and I respect-

Africa Brooke 1:45:30 Mm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:45:30 ... their viewpoints.

Africa Brooke 1:45:31 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:45:32 All I can say is in my family, in my parents' families, the way I was brought up, what I saw around me, there would be a directness around things like this. I do not consider it was traumatizing for me. I do not consider it was body shaming me.

Africa Brooke 1:45:50 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:45:51 Personally, I do also appreciate that in some families, those same words could be uttered and it could be derogatory. It could be body shaming. It could be traumatic. There are multiple truths-

Africa Brooke 1:46:05 Mm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:46:05 ... to those same words, right? I mean, what, what are your... What's your perspective on that?

Africa Brooke 1:46:09 That's, that's a big one. That's a big one, and it ties into the conversation that I have in the book around context collapse.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:46:17 And feel free to push back-

Africa Brooke 1:46:18 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:46:18 ... and disagree with me, by the way.

Africa Brooke 1:46:19 Yeah. Oh, I, I 100% would. But, but the reason why that is something that I can again understand, even if I don't agree with it, is because of the culture that I'm from. So I'm from Zimbabwe, the Shona tribe. That's in Southern Africa. It's right next to South Africa. Um, we communicate in very different ways. Even in just the same country, you have the Ndebele, which is a different tribe. Whereas Ndebele people are probably a little bit more direct and a little bit kind of more clear, similar to sort of what you're talking about right there. They- they're kind of a little bit similar to West Africans in terms of how very direct in language they are. Then with the Shona people, which is where I'm from, we're a little bit more reserved, kind of more on the reserved side of things. So we might express certain things through humor instead of just a more direct way. So we kind of talk around things, but still say them in a sort of-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:47:13 Mm

Africa Brooke 1:47:13 ... wrapped in humor. Why am I saying that? I'm just trying to show how even in the same country we approach communication in very different ways. So I can immediately understand that being an immigrant, having people in my family who might come over from Zimbabwe for a little while and we're all having a conversation and they say something that I'm like, "Oh, my auntie, you can't say that." [laughs] You know, I'll kind of laugh, but I'm like-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:47:38 Yeah

Africa Brooke 1:47:38 ... "You can't... That would not fly. You can't" [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:47:40 Hey, I, I know what that feels like, right? I get it.

Africa Brooke 1:47:42 [laughs] So I, I'm able to hold it, and then I realize how much I have been more embedded in this Western culture because then I can hear that very differently to how other people in my family might hear it.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:47:56 Mm.

Africa Brooke 1:47:56 You know what I mean? It's like a... So I completely get it, and ties into the thing that I speak about around context collapse. So if you're listening to this, please have a little, have a little search and exploration on exactly what it is, the intricacies of it. But essentially, there was a time when you could share something on social media, and it might be limited to your friends, friends that you've said, "Okay, friend this person. I know them. Friend this person." And you could trust that the thing that you want to share, a post, an opinion, whatever it might be, that it's only reaching people that you've sort of grown up with, people you went to school with. They probably live in Britain, in the UK in some way.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:48:34 Mm.

Africa Brooke 1:48:34 Maybe they live in Manchester, most of them. Now all of that is out of the window.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:48:38 Yeah.

Africa Brooke 1:48:39 You, again, let's zoom it back in into someone with maybe 50 followers or 100 or whatever, still your people that you've grown up with, but when you share this thing, it could land on the phone of someone who's in Mozambique.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:48:54 Yeah.

Africa Brooke 1:48:54 And they will respond as if you are in the same country as them, which is exactly what's starting to happen.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:49:00 The global village.

Africa Brooke 1:49:01 Man. And we respond as if we're responding to someone who is in the same country-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:49:07 Yeah

Africa Brooke 1:49:07 ... as us, has the same cultural context, has the same understanding. So that comment section you're, you're talking about from the reel that you shared is just a perfect example of that.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:49:17 Exactly.

Africa Brooke 1:49:18 And you have a global audience, so everyone's responding to it very differently. Some might laugh and be like, "Oh my goodness, that's my, that's my mom." [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:49:24 Totally. And I get it. I'm not saying anyone is wrong.

Africa Brooke 1:49:27 No, not at all.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:49:27 Everyone's entitled-

Africa Brooke 1:49:28 Not at all

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:49:28 ... to their viewpoints, and some people will, will say, "Yeah, your mom shouldn't have spoken to you like that."

Africa Brooke 1:49:33 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:49:33 Now, look, I could be completely deceiving myself-

Africa Brooke 1:49:36 Mm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:49:37 ... and go, "Actually, I was so accustomed to it that I dealt with it."

Africa Brooke 1:49:40 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:49:41 Yeah. I, I can acknowledge that that's a possibility.

Africa Brooke 1:49:43 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:49:43 I would like to think I'm pretty self-aware. This more than anything speaks to your work, I think. I am not going to agree with you just because it's the mainstream narrative. I'm not gonna do that-

Africa Brooke 1:50:00 Mm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:50:00 ... because it would be betraying myself. It would be betraying the culture in which I was brought up.

Africa Brooke 1:50:07 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:50:07 If you think no one should ever comment on someone's appearance, I respect that.

Africa Brooke 1:50:11 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:50:12 You know, I personally will not comment on someone's appearance.

Africa Brooke 1:50:14 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:50:15 Right? I was born and brought up in the UK.

Africa Brooke 1:50:17 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:50:17 Yes, I had an Indian family who were... You know, Mom and Dad were born and brought up in India, so I wouldn't choose to, but I completely understand my mother's desire to do that-

Africa Brooke 1:50:27 Mm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:50:29 ... and I'm thankful that she did.

Africa Brooke 1:50:30 Yes. And you get to... You know what? I, I think this sort of comes to, and I think everyone will be able to take something from this. You get to have your subjective experience.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:50:41 Yeah.

Africa Brooke 1:50:42 And I think that's, that's a big part of sort of what we're seeing here, where people feel shame and guilt for having and owning their-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:50:49 Yeah

Africa Brooke 1:50:49 ... subjective experience. Then on the other side of that, we have to look out for where we are wanting, even on some level, someone else to mold their subjective experience so we can feel safe.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:51:00 Mm.

Africa Brooke 1:51:01 I, I think that's it.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:51:02 Yeah. And again, I don't wanna ever intentionally offend anyone.

Africa Brooke 1:51:07 No.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:51:07 I really don't.

Africa Brooke 1:51:08 No.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:51:09 Like, I don't wanna upset anyone, and I completely understand if you have been body shamed, or your father or mother said to you that you were fat-

Africa Brooke 1:51:20 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:51:20 ... and you knew what that meant. I get it. When you hear that in another country, you're like, "No, I know what that is."

Africa Brooke 1:51:25 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:51:26 "I've had that before." But nonetheless, there are multiple truths.

Africa Brooke 1:51:29 Yeah. Always.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:51:31 Right?

Africa Brooke 1:51:31 Always.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:51:31 That's-

Africa Brooke 1:51:32 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:51:33 The final thing I wanted to ask you, Africa. You mentioned young people before. I want you to define what you mean by young people, 'cause to me-

Africa Brooke 1:51:39 [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:51:40 ... you are a young person. Uh, it's all relative, isn't it?

Africa Brooke 1:51:43 It's all relative.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:51:43 This young people... [laughs] It's all relative.

Africa Brooke 1:51:45 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:51:45 So I'm a father.

Africa Brooke 1:51:47 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:51:48 Okay? My son is 13. My daughter is 11. I appreciate you're not a parent. You've written this brilliant book, The Third Perspective.

Africa Brooke 1:51:57 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:51:58 In your opinion, what is it from this book I should be teaching my children?

Africa Brooke 1:52:05 Oh, that's good. Okay. Give me a moment to think about this. I can answer it from the place of something that would have been useful for me as a child, and even though I'm not a parent, I have a very, very big family, so I interact quite a lot with six-year-olds, teenagers, 18-year-olds, and all the in-between. And I think because of my story and what I've experienced, and anyone who's around me, my family, is very much aware of it. There isn't any separation between the stories that I tell publicly and the ownership and the nuances that they don't know, which means that the young people in my family and in my life feel so safe sharing with me and showing me all of who they are.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:53:03 Mm.

Africa Brooke 1:53:03 As a young person, even though I said that if I was to go back, you know, sort of future Africa and I had some wisdom to impart, the thing that would have actually been useful instead of, of what of a message would've come through then, is being told quite early on that I get to be all the different things, and very specifically, I mean, I was applauded at times when I was good. "Oh, now you're being good. That's a good way to do it. Oh, you, you got good grades," or, "You did this," only recognized really when I did something good in terms of affection and intimacy and emotional connection. And when I did something that was perceived as bad, there was emotional distance. It was highlighted, but in a different way. Something that could have been useful, and I really hope I'm not just saying this retrospectively, something that could've been useful is in whatever way works for, for a child or your kids specifically, is to be told that, "Africa, you are both good and bad, okay? Sometimes there might be times where maybe I might feel just my own disappointment because I think you should be a certain way, but actually you're all of the things-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:54:14 Wow

Africa Brooke 1:54:14 ... and I need you to know that. I need you to understand that." Because that would've set me up, that thing we're talking about, learning to hold contradiction and multiple truths. I don't know that I had to learn that through my father being abusive. I think there could've been-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:54:29 Yeah

Africa Brooke 1:54:30 ... another way to lea- like, a more direct, not indirect way. Um-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:54:35 I love that

Africa Brooke 1:54:35 ... I think that would be it.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:54:37 Yeah. I, I really, really like that, and it's funny. It's something my wife and I have been discussing recently. With the kids, it's, it's, it's... I guess it's something me more, more than my wife. She's always been very honest and open in front of the children.

Africa Brooke 1:54:53 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:54:53 I would say me more so, I think because of the way I was brought up-

Africa Brooke 1:54:59 Mm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:54:59 ... and the perfectionist tendencies, frankly, forget tendencies, the perfectionism-

Africa Brooke 1:55:05 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:55:05 ... that I have suffered with for much of my life. I think without my wife, without her input, I would've possibly tried to give off that impression of perfection-

Africa Brooke 1:55:21 Mm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:55:21 ... to my children, and we can explore why that is another time perhaps. But I've tried my best not to.

Africa Brooke 1:55:29 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:55:30 And I will continue to try and not do that, 'cause I don't think it's helpful.

Africa Brooke 1:55:35 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:55:35 They need to know that their parents are also fallible and that they make mistakes sometimes.

Africa Brooke 1:55:40 Do you think they can also see through it?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:55:42 I think they can, and I think what happens is if you don't explicitly acknowledge it and say it-

Africa Brooke 1:55:51 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:55:52 ... I think it's confusing, and they make up stories, and they make up-

Africa Brooke 1:55:56 Yes

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:55:56 ... all kinds of things. And so I think the answer you gave, I think it's wonderful, and I think it's... it lands with me particularly 'cause it's something I've been thinking about.

Africa Brooke 1:56:05 Oh, I love that. I love that. And- Can I add another little thing that just came up as you were speaking too? I also wonder if that performance of perfection from a parent, when they see you behaving in a way that opposes that, and you haven't owned that, that other, you know, those other aspects of you. Let's say you have this idea that you don't really get angry, you don't really shout, you like things to be done well, and then they see you exhibiting a behavior that goes against that, but it's not one that you've owned. I think it can create, create distrust as well.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:56:39 And that void-

Africa Brooke 1:56:39 Because they don't... Yeah, because it's like you're pretending.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:56:42 Yeah.

Africa Brooke 1:56:42 But you want me to be perfect in this way, but you're doing this.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:56:45 Yeah.

Africa Brooke 1:56:46 You know? I, I think that's another thing too, but yeah, I, I think just every young person that I've spoken to, every email, every voice note that I get from teachers or students, comes back to this thing of, "I just need to know that I can be. I'm not just this one thing, and if I change my mind, it doesn't make me bad."

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:57:06 Yeah.

Africa Brooke 1:57:06 You know? It's, I think it's that.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:57:08 Yeah. Thank you for sharing that, and, you know, I'd love to go deeper into that on a, on another occasion-

Africa Brooke 1:57:13 Will do [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:57:13 ... with you, so I think that's fascinating. To finish off this conversation, Africa, um, as I mentioned to you when you, when you knocked on the door this morning-

Africa Brooke 1:57:23 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:57:23 ... I think your book is, is really quite wonderful-

Africa Brooke 1:57:28 Mm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:57:28 ... and so, so necessary. It's giving a language to something that many people intuitively feel, but they don't know what to do about it, so thank you for going dark and going off-

Africa Brooke 1:57:40 Yes

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:57:41 ... line for a while to go and write this book.

Africa Brooke 1:57:43 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:57:43 I, I really think it's gonna have a massive impact on the world, actually.

Africa Brooke 1:57:46 Oh, wow.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:57:47 I think it's got the potential for that. For someone who has listened to this conversation-

Africa Brooke 1:57:56 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:57:56 ... and they're starting to feel, "Yeah, you know what? I, I do self-censor."

Africa Brooke 1:58:00 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:58:00 "I self-censor quite a lot, actually, in my personal relationships, in my work relationships. I also do it online. You've, you've said so many things today, Africa. Where should I start?"

Africa Brooke 1:58:15 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:58:16 What would you say to them?

Africa Brooke 1:58:20 This might not be the sexiest answer, but it's the most necessary one. The only place to start is the awareness phase. So I spoke about awareness, responsibility, and expression. Expression is the fun part. That's where you really get to play, and to kind of test things out, and to really go out there and sort of see what you can do with your new, refined voice, you know. But let's, let's really do the beautiful work of awareness. I think that's what you can do now. I have a feeling that even just from this conversation, there's so many doors in your mind that have been opened, but I want you to just hone in on, what are you afraid of? Are you afraid of rejection? Are you afraid of social exile? Are you afraid of not getting it wrong? Do you think your voice sounds stupid? 'Cause that's something that I hear a lot. Are you afraid of... B- just get very specific. Don't write as if anyone else sees it, because once you look and you really... And it can be a very vulnerable experience, but I think that's a good thing. You need to dump all of these things that are currently in your mind, these areas of resistance, or these worries or fears, perceived or actual. Just list them down. I think that's a good place to start, because if you're not clear on what it is that is currently not working, it's gonna be very difficult to create a strategy going forward. So I, I know that's sort of unsexy work to do, and it can feel like, "Okay, but then what do I do after that?"

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:59:45 Start.

Africa Brooke 1:59:46 Just start there.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:59:47 Yeah.

Africa Brooke 1:59:47 Start there.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:59:48 I love that.

Africa Brooke 1:59:49 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:59:49 Awareness is the first step-

Africa Brooke 1:59:51 It is

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:59:51 ... and the most important step.

Africa Brooke 1:59:52 Yes. Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:59:54 Africa, I love what you're doing. I love that you made the journey out to the studio. Keep on bravely expressing yourself, and I hope we get to do this again at some point in the future.

Africa Brooke 2:00:04 Oh, thank you. This has been, hands down, one of my favorite conversations. Don't tell the others. Um, it's been incredible. I feel so activated. I've spoken about things that I just haven't spoken about before, and I think your integrity and your curiosity, which are your top values, they really shine through, even from the moment that we embraced, and I walked in, and you made me ginger tea. Um, you are who you say you are, and I, when I meet people that truly are them, um, it allows for me to open new doors, and I, I really got to do that today, and your support means so, so much, so thank you.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:00:45 Oh, thank you very much. I appreciate that. If you enjoyed that conversation, I think you are really going to enjoy this one about the simple things you can do each morning to set yourself up for a fantastic day.

2:00:57 So many people get stopped by procrastination. You know what you need to do. The issue is, how do you make yourself take actions?