Signs You're Dealing With A Narcissist & How To Outsmart Them To Find Happiness | Dr. Ramani

1. 0:00 – 6:24

   Why Narcissism Matters and What It Is

   1. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee0:00

      Why is it that you are so passionate about the topic of narcissism?

   2. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula0:07

      Mm-hmm. I am passionate about the topic of narcissism for a couple of reasons. I wish I could say it was one why. I think one is a concern maybe, is that this is harming people, and there's an absolute unwillingness of the mental health profession to recognize this, of families to recognize this. It's as though that's just how they are. They just speak their mind. And I'm thinking, "That's not what this is." And so I feel like clinically, people who have been affected by these relationships have been woefully undertreated and underserved. That's number one. But the number two reason is why are we so fascinated? Why do we reward them so much? They make more money. They just do better by societal metrics. I don't know that they're doing better in, in existential metrics. But then it's the harm they do and how little we have really talked about this, and I think that's really where my fascination comes from.

   3. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:01

      If we just take it from the top then-

   4. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:03

      Mm-hmm

   5. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:03

      ... what is narcissism?

   6. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:05

      Yeah.

   7. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:06

      What's the definition, and how do we know if we're-

   8. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:10

      Mm-hmm

   9. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:10

      ... dealing with a narcissist somewhere in our lives?

   10. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:14

       So there's sort of two ways to approach this, and I think that because your second question, you know, raises already some difficulties with that first part of the question. So let's talk about what narcissism is. Narcissism's a personality style, and we have to remember we all have personalities, right? Just people who are difficult don't have personalities. You have one. I have one. Everyone has one, right? And it gives us a almost a blueprint and a way to predict how we're gonna go through the world. We know how, by knowing someone's personality, we have a good working model of how they're gonna respond to stress, how they're gonna respond to joy, how they're gonna be in relationships, how they're gonna approach many areas of their life. We can really... It's, it's a decent predictive model. It's not absolute, but it's pretty good. So that's what personality is, right? And we, again, all have one. Narcissism is a personality style. Now, it's in a, in a sort of a specific area of personality styles that are more maladaptive and rigid and put them at odds with other people, but it's just one more style, and it's a style that's characterized by a series of patterns that hang together. Variable and low empathy, entitlement, grandiosity, arrogance, envy of other people, or they think other people envy them. They often live in sort of a fantasy world. They're very selfish. They can be very controlling. They don't handle disappointment and stress well, and at those times, they'll often rage at other people, blame them, not take responsibility or accountability. They are... They're very superficial. They're vain. They're shallow. They're very focused on status and appearance and, and, and sort of very, you know, sort of external characteristics. Many narcissistic people also have the, uh, personality quality of extroversion, though there's a subset that are a little bit more introverted. But all of that together, all this grandiosity and arrogance and entitlement, all this stuff I'm talking about, it's like a suit of armor around a deep-seated insecurity. Narcissistic people sort of are a cauldron of shame. So when they do get criticized, where the rest of us might, you know, we may not like it and we might say, "But they've got a point," if you've got this deep in- fragile ego and an insecurity and the shame, when somebody gives you feedback on your behavior, it becomes explosive, and that, that gets lashed out at other people. So that chronic insecurity is kept at bay by them sort of bejeweling themselves with all of these defenses. And that's how that shows up. So to your next question, and this is where it gets tricky, how do we know someone in our life is narcissistic? I almost think coming to that sense of are they narcissistic is less important than giving yourself permission to look at the patterns, patterns being the key word here, that, of behavior that someone around you is showing. The fact is somebody listening to this is not saying, "Well, yesterday someone I know for the first time got mad at me." That, you don't know that they're narcissistic. This is usually months, years, lifetimes of observing someone, observing how they are under stress, observing how they are in terms of equity and shared responsibility, observing how they are in terms of empathy, observing how they are in terms of whether or not they think they're more special than other people. It's a pattern. It hangs together. That's the nature of personality. The stuff goes together. So people... It, it... And I tell folks, don't get lost in the weeds of wanting to precisely figure out if this is a narcissist. You're giving me a laundry list of behavior this person engages in regularly, and it's not good for you. And I can promise you, the more problematic the behavior and the more consistent it is, the less likely it is to change. So, you know, by the time I'm done with a conversation with somebody, uh, you know, give me a couple of hours, I'll be like, yeah, no, this is probably narcissism. But I think in our lives, I think we have to get lesser awa- we have to get away from that are they narcissistic, from are these patterns consistent. Yeah, they probably are. And the more consistent the patterns, the less likely they'll change. The less likely they'll change, the more our decisions about this relationship have to come from that they're not gonna change, so what am I gonna do?

   11. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee5:21

       So much there to unpick, right? If we go through that list of behaviors-

   12. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula5:30

       Mm-hmm

   13. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee5:30

       ... um, traits that you just-

   14. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula5:32

       Mm-hmm

   15. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee5:32

       ... outlined.

   16. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula5:33

       Mm-hmm.

   17. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee5:34

       I would say many people, if not all people, can exhibit some of those traits-

   18. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula5:42

       Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm

   19. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee5:42

       ... from time to time. You know?

   20. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula5:44

       Mm-hmm.

   21. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee5:44

       Superficiality, uh, a lack of empathy-

   22. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula5:48

       Mm-hmm

   23. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee5:48

       ... uh, envy, being vain-

   24. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula5:50

       Mm-hmm

   25. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee5:50

       ... what, you know, an, an over-focus on external validation. And, and I would say-

   26. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula5:54

       Mm-hmm

   27. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee5:54

       ... a lot of people, I think, exhibit certain, you know, what you could call negative- ... traits of their personality when they're under high degrees of stress.

   28. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula6:06

       Mm-hmm.

   29. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee6:07

       And many people in society across the world these days are feeling under a huge amount of stress.

   30. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula6:11

       Mm-hmm.
2. 6:24 – 10:22

   A Continuum: Taking Responsibility and Narcissism Subtypes

   1. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula6:24

      Yeah. So coup- I'm, I'm glad you, I'm glad you framed it that way because one of the things that many people grapple with is this idea of, am I the narcissist? Because I've been, I've been entitled. I'm the one who said, "Hey, wait a minute, I'm the first one in line," or that I haven't listened to my friend's problem the way I should have and didn't have empathy for her problem, or I blew up at someone because I was having a bad day. What we also have to look at is how a person takes responsibility. We may do those things, blow up at the person when we're having a bad day, but in a healthy person, you see some attempt at making amends pretty quickly thereafter, and a willingness to take responsibility. So a, a sense of, "I am so sorry. I had no right to yell at you like that. I, I, I just had no right. I'm sorry I hurt you. Are you okay?" So if a person... Now, they can't do that every day. Like, they can't scream at you and apologize, scream at you, apologize. But when a person has a fall from grace, and there is that attempt to take again, make amends, take accountability, show self-awareness, and not blame other people or give flimsy excuses, I don't consider that narcissism. I consider that being a human being. The narcissism piece is the consistency, as you said, but it's also the unwillingness to ever take responsibility, right? And so you bring up the issue, which is a very important one, that narcissism isn't an either/or, yes/no, black/white. It's very much on a continuum, and I think that's why. And not only is it on a continuum, there are several subtypes, which is why two people in narcissistic relationships may be having very different experiences from each other. On the severity side, on the lowest ends of narcissism, sort of we could call it mild narcissism, you have people who are superficial, vapid, vain, attention-seeking, emotionally immature and stunted. I honestly have to say they're a little bit harmless. You know, their lack of empathy really comes from this idea that they're almost more caught up in childlike or adolescent concerns, even though they're an adult, and they're not able to attend with the proper attention to sort of grown-up problems, as it were. So while they may be sort of charming as a friend, they may not be good people to be long-term partners. They would not make good parents, that kind of thing, right? But not as sort of psychologically harmful as we'd see at the severe end of the spectrum, which is things like malignant narcissism, what we call the dark tetrad, where psychopathy, narcissism, Machiavellianism, which is sort of the willingness to take advantage of o- other people, and sadism all come together. That's a whole nother game. These are people who are coercive, exploitative, manipulative, isolating, menacing. It's almost terrifying, right?

   2. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee9:00

      Mm-hmm.

   3. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula9:00

      Tremendous harm to people who are in those relationships. Most of us who encounter narcissistic people are catching people in the middle. A moderate narcissism, that's not just that sort of mild, silly, attention-seeking, "Aren't I cute on Instagram" narcissism, but certainly not that menace. But the moderate narcissism can do a number on us because the- it is a... There are enough good days to keep you hooked, but the bad days leave you questioning yourself. And after enough time, people in these relationships start to feel like they're a bad person, that they're in- they lack capability, that there's something wrong with them. Like, that's not a good feeling.

   4. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee9:36

      Yeah.

   5. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula9:36

      So that, that continuum can give us a sense of why it can look so different. Not everyone who posts a selfie is narcissistic, but a person who, where that becomes their reason for living, they will get irritable with other people who won't take the picture of them, who won't like the picture of them. It's all they talk about. They talk about that over being there for other people. Now we're in narcissism, right?

   6. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee9:57

      Mm-hmm.

   7. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula9:57

      Person who takes a selfie is a person who's taken a selfie. So I think it's making those sorts of discernments really, really matters. But I also think that we all have our ungraceful days.

   8. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee10:09

      Yeah.

   9. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula10:09

      Healthy people take accountability for those days, and they apologize properly so that the other person feels whole, and there's a place to grow from.

   10. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee10:19

       Yeah, really helpful. Thank you.

3. 10:22 – 16:27

   Where Narcissism Comes From: Adversity and Overspecialness

   1. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee10:22

      Another thought I had when reading your latest book, and also when you were just going through that list of behaviors, is that some of those patterns or some of those traits at least, like a need for external validation, are often adaptive traits to how we were brought up, right?

   2. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula10:46

      Mm-hmm.

   3. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee10:46

      So let's say we didn't feel we were unconditionally loved by our parents.

   4. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula10:52

      Mm-hmm.

   5. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee10:52

      Well, we develop all kinds of compensatory patterns-

   6. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula10:57

      Uh-huh

   7. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee10:57

      ... for that which serve us in childhoods-

   8. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula11:00

      Mm-hmm

   9. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee11:00

      ... and often don't serve us when we become adults.

   10. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula11:04

       Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

   11. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee11:05

       Where does narcissism fit into that framework? Is it something you're born with, or can it be an adaptive pattern to trauma or, you know, parenting styles, for example?

   12. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula11:18

       Mm-hmm. So a- again, there's a couple, there's a couple of things sort of there, which is that need for external validation being a human want. That's absolutely the case. In fact, human beings who don't need external validation are the ones who are non-normative because we are a social species. We want to be noticed. We feel good when people think we did good. That's normal. And so the q- the problem becomes when that becomes the only motivator, right? So there's no internal goal-driven system. So the narcissistic person will set their goals not on what internally matters to them, but to what they think the world wants them to be, right? That's where the grandiosity comes. I'm gonna have a billion dollars, and I'm gonna have a yacht, and I'm gonna have a this, and I'm gonna have a that. But it's all sort of ephemeral, and it's all sort of like, "I'm gonna deliver the world what it wants so it thinks I'm great." But really, d- you have no idea what gives a narcissistic person meaning or purpose, 'cause they don't know. So there's a lot of internal sort of emptiness as a result of that, right? So it's not the need. So again, need for external validation is just one of the many things-

   13. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee12:19

       Mm

   14. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula12:19

       ... that comprises narcissism, right? If a person has a fever, we don't automatically assume they have bronchitis. There's a whole list of things they could have. That's one thing is a fever.

   15. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee12:30

       Mm-hmm.

   16. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula12:30

       So I'm like, "Now we're gonna do more tests." The same thing with need for external validation. We all have it to greater or lesser degrees. But when that becomes a single, singular motivating space, that's a concern. Now, like you said, that need for external validation may be a compensatory mechanism for childhood. Here's the thing. Most of us did not grow up with unconditional love. Most people, they did not. They grew up with parents who, where it was very clear, if you do well in school, you will be loved more. If you help around the house, you will be loved more. If you do the things the parent wants, you get more of their regard. It's very rare for people to have gotten truly unconditional love. So every kid has gone through this. But it is certainly part of what could've been p- the entire sort of sequelae of what, or the constellation of stuff that contributes to why someone becomes narcissistic. Which takes us to that question, right? How do people become narcissistic? And so there's a, there's, it's, it's multi-determined. And those-

   17. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee13:33

       Mm

   18. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula13:33

       ... the pathways that make people narcissistic just as often, more often I would say, don't result in narcissism. So that's part of the trick here. We can tell the story backwards. Now, the pathway of adversity, okay? So these are kids who are growing up in adversity, neglect, abuse, lots of conditional love. Do what I tell you to do. Serve my needs. Be what I want you to be. And, and that's the only way you're gonna get love kind of thing. That's certainly a vulnerability pathway for narcissism. But even that said, most kids who grow up under conditions of adversity, neglect, trauma, abuse, conditionality, all of that, attachment disruptions, don't go on to develop narcissism. They may go on to develop many other things, complex trauma-

   19. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee14:18

       Mm

   20. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula14:18

       ... severe anxiety, all of that. Addiction. But not necessarily narcissism. There's another pathway, though. And the other pathway to develop narcissism is one of overspecialness. This is res- really interesting research that's been coming out of the, the Netherlands, from people like Eddie Brummelman and others, who are suggesting that telling the child that they're more special than any other child, not just that they're special. All kids are special, and all kids should know they're special. But kids who are told, "You're more special than that kid. You shouldn't have to wait in line the same way. You should get more time playing soccer. You should get the better teacher. You're more special." So in essence, they're indoctrinated into a sense of entitlement. That is also considered a risk factor for narcissism. These are kids who may not learn to regulate. These are kids who might get a lot of material needs met, fabulous vacations and theme parks and stuff, and the newest gadget. But parents may not be emotionally available. The parents themselves may be narcissistic. That is also a pathway to developing narcissism. But in the same breath, the majority of kids raised that way don't become narcissistic. So the pathways are clear, and we can... I, I've worked with many narcissistic clients in my practice, and when we work backwards, I see, I've always seen in therapy more of the adversity path than the spoiled child path, but I've seen both, and that's where it comes from. And it's not just compensatory. So the defenses certainly come out to protect the child. But there are many people out there who were raised very conditionally, right? You need to perform for us. You need to be the b- perfect student or the perfect ballet dancer or piano player, whatever the heck the parents wanted. And those people may grow up not sort of living and dying by external validation, but sort of feeling they're not good enough.

   21. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee16:08

       Mm-hmm.

   22. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula16:08

       You know? Like, I, I n- I don't think I'm smart. Or I don't think I'm talented. And so they may continually have an internal dialogue where they're putting themselves down, but they retain empathy. They're not entitled. They're kind, well-regulated, compassionate people. They're just not kind to themselves. That's not narcissism.

4. 16:27 – 24:07

   Is Narcissism Adaptive? Evolution and Sapolsky's Baboons

   1. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee16:27

      Now, if some of narcissism is adaptive, if some of it is-

   2. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula16:34

      Mm-hmm

   3. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee16:35

      ... then do you think that rates of narcissism are going up? I mean, we know rates-

   4. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula16:42

      Mm

   5. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee16:43

      ... of perfectionism, for example, have been going up dramatically since the 1980s. And perfectionism is associated with all kinds of negative problems.

   6. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula16:51

      Mm-hmm.

   7. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee16:52

      Is narcissism also going up? And I guess the wider point is how long has narcissism been present in humanity? I mean, do we know that?

   8. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula17:04

      Mm.

   9. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee17:04

      Because it's interesting. You know, why would we have this trait? What's, what's the point of narcissism in the first place if it wreaks havoc on so many people in its wake?

   10. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula17:14

       Right. So it, it, so it depends on how you're using the term adaptive.

   11. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee17:20

       Mm.

   12. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula17:21

       Right? Is it adaptive for reproductive fitness using a evolutionary Dar- Darwinian model? Is it adaptive for human relationships? Is it adaptive in the workplace? The answer to those questions is yes to some of them and no to others. I, I think that there are certain things that are... Something that's adaptive in the workplace is not adaptive in an intimate relationship. Okay? So there's a, to the orthogonal going in the opposite direction. And I think what we often think is, "Well, they're successful at work, so they must be successful." I'm like, no, they're successful at work. They're a terrible partner. They're a terrible parent. But good God, they're blowing it up at work, okay? So adaptability is going to vary on that basis. So let's go down to brass tacks, and let's talk about e- evolution, right? So that brings it down to its basic nature. There has always been narcissism in human beings. We're a hominid species, one step away from a primate species, and we're hierarchical as a result. We're hierarchical and we're social. We live in social groups, and we do have hierarchies. Guess who's at the top of the hierarchy? The human alpha is a narcissist, okay? So it has not, it's not just adaptive in the 21st century. It's been adaptive since there have been human beings, since there was a bigger cave to have, since there was a better fire-

   13. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee18:29

       Mm

   14. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula18:29

       ... to have, since there was a bigger, you know, bison to kill. There's always been narcissism, right? And these people have been at the top of the food chain. I'm gonna give you an interesting example. It's an example I've used, I used with my undergraduate students for years when I was teaching at the university. It comes from Dr. Robert Sapolsky's research, and I'm sure you're very familiar-

   15. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee18:47

       Yeah

   16. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula18:47

       ... with Robert Sapolsky-

   17. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee18:48

       Great guy

   18. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula18:48

       ... who I think is literally one of the greatest thinkers of our time. And his research as, a, like he's a neuroimmunologist, I believe, is, is, has been primate based. And I'm gonna simplify his research, but it gives us insight to how this sort of so-called adaptability and how it affects other people. So in this bit, he would, he followed various sort of troops of, of baboons, right? And baboons are relatively aggressive. N- I think primates in general are not a nice species, and hominids aren't much better, to be honest with you. But so what he found was that he followed, he followed these various tribes. He put sort of, he was able to get blood samples from them. He could look at cortisol, was usually the marker that he was looking at, higher cortisol, higher stress. He already noticed that there was a hierarchy in the troops. There were alphas, you know, that would sort of take all the goodies for them and make life miserable for everyone, including the females, the juveniles, and the non-dominant males, right?

   19. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee19:39

       Mm.

   20. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula19:40

       The non-dominant males and the females got along fine. There was a lot of mutual grooming. But when the alphas were around, again, they made everyone's life miserable, okay? So the, the alphas were, in essence, narcissistic baboons. And in one of the troops he was studying, the alphas all got... There was like a safari park, like is where human beings would be, and they got their hand- In the garbage c- can, they found tainted food, and all the alphas died. No more alphas, just juveniles, females, and non-dominant males. And I'd always ask my students, "So what happened? What happened in that troop?" A lot of the students assumed that the non-dominant males would have stepped up to the position and taken that alpha position. That's not what happened.

   21. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee20:23

       Mm.

   22. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula20:23

       What happened in Sapolsky's research was in that alpha-less tribe, in essence, all the narcissistic baboons died, the tribe got healthier. Their cortisol levels dropped. There was more cooperative grooming, and the tribe functioned better. He figured over time it was gonna change because juveniles swap tribes when they get to adolescence in baboons, so new crop of alphas would have come in.

   23. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee20:44

       Mm.

   24. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula20:45

       But I found that research so compelling because if you talk to anybody who has to interact with narcissistic people, workplace, family, and they say, "Ooh, those family members didn't come to this dinner. It was so much nicer." Those people were moved to another office. It's so much more peaceful. So the a- adaptability is for the narcissistic people. They've adapted beautifully. They are the alphas. They've always been at the top of the hierarchy. Our history books are written about them. They have been the kings. They have been the leaders. They have been the warriors. Frankly, they've been the innovators, right? So they've always been the ones we paid attention to. They always had more money. They always had more resource. They took what they wanted. And so if you're gonna argue adaptability, I'd say, heck yeah, they were adaptable. That doesn't mean you wanna be in a relationship with them.

   25. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee21:33

       Yeah. So interesting. Thank you for sharing that. That I wasn't aware of that. That is really, really interesting. In particular, that in the alpha-less group-

   26. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula21:44

       Mm-hmm

   27. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee21:44

       ... everyone gets healthier.

   28. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula21:46

       Yes. Everyone gets healthier. That's the key. That, that's the key.

   29. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee21:50

       I mean, there's, there's a couple of ways to really think about that. Initially, I think, well, a world without narcissists would probably be calmer-

   30. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula21:59

       Yeah
5. 24:07 – 31:47

   How Common Is It? Prevalence, Measurement and NPD Diagnosis

   1. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula24:07

      that way.

   2. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee24:08

      Yeah, a- and also, it's really hard because the point you made right at the start of this conversation is that this is a topic that needs more awareness, right?

   3. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula24:22

      Mm-hmm.

   4. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee24:22

      People aren't talking about it enough. The medical profession probably are not recognizing it enough, and therefore, how do you get good research on this? How do we get those numbers when, you know, it could be heavily, heavily skewed-

   5. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula24:36

      Yeah

   6. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee24:36

      ... because of this lack of awareness?

   7. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula24:38

      It is.

   8. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee24:38

      And could you just briefly clarify the difference that you mentioned narcissistic personality disorder, you know, a diagnosis-

   9. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula24:47

      Mm-hmm

   10. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee24:47

       ... made by a healthcare professional, and clinically noticeable-

   11. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula24:53

       Narcissism, yeah. Enough narcissism that other people notice it. The, yeah

   12. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee24:56

       ... just briefly, e-explain the difference, because I think that often gets confusing for people as well.

   13. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula25:01

       Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So let's talk about the... I'm gonna talk about that research piece first. You know, how do we study this? How do we even figure out how many people are narcissistic? I'm gonna tell you the answer to that. I really don't know, because we don't have any good measurement scales.

   14. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee25:12

       Hmm.

   15. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula25:12

       The problem is narcissism is so multifaceted. The most widely used narcissism scale, I don't think it does the trick, because it gets a lot at things like assertiveness and leadership. So it gets at all the sort of forward-facing, grandiose kind of qualities, but not at the stuff that really does the harm. A little bit it gets at entitlement.

   16. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee25:30

       Hmm.

   17. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula25:30

       It's hard to get people to fess up to their narcissism. The research shows very clearly narcissistic people actually judge themselves as being very empathic, very nice people. So they're not gonna, they're not gonna answer these questions honestly, so it's a really difficult quality to assess. We'd almost do better asking other people what the people in their lives are, but then there's a bias there, too. So it's very difficult-

   18. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee25:53

       Mm

   19. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula25:53

       ... to, to study this. But then again to this difference, right? The reason we're able to do more research on narcissistic personality disorder is that there are structured interviews for that. But I have to be frank with you, I've used these structured interviews with hundreds of research patients in the past, and even then, I have to tell you, the rates we were getting were low because people weren't copping to this, or they were copping to much more severe things, so we weren't capturing them because the nature of the populations we were working with. So the difference between narcissistic personality disorder and narcissism really comes down to some technical issues, is A, this person has been seen by a licensed mental health professional who has the capacity to actually make this diagnosis, and that would mean they know enough about NPD to do it. They've spent enough time with the client to be able to do it. I'm not even convinced I could spend an hour with a client and confidently be able to issue-

   20. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee26:45

       Hmm

   21. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula26:45

       ... that diagnosis. I'd have to say, when I've seen this in outpatient settings, somewhere around session four, session five, so hour four or hour five, it would come out. When I worked in inpatient settings, maybe after the first couple of days, 'cause you'd have more time with them. It's a more intensive kind of an exposure. So what we're looking for when we give the diagnosis of a personality disorder is that laundry list of qualities I gave you, the lack of empathy and the entitlement and the grandiosity, on and on. We have to establish that it's consistent, that it shows up in a variety of situations, and also that these patterns are causing the patient clinically significant relationship impairment, occupational impairment, or distress. And this is where narcissistic personality disorder gets tricky. The vast majority of people who are narcissistic don't show up to therapy. They don't think there's anything wrong with them. They think they're better than everybody else. When they finally do come into therapy, they're coming in for another issue.

   22. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee27:44

       Hmm.

   23. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula27:44

       Their, their spouse has given them an ultimatum. They are... They're, they're struggling with addiction. They may be having an irritable depression. They are anxious. They're having an existential crisis. They're upset about growing old. Their workplace is demanding they go into therapy for optics reasons. They're court-ordered. So they're, they get into therapy through a back door that's not necessarily related to narcissism. So it's not like a depressed patient where that's the presenting issue, right? They're coming in with something else. It's the therapist's job to sort through all that, and most therapists unfortunately get caught in on the presenting diagnosis. We think about this too medically versus what else is going on here.

   24. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee28:25

       Yeah.

   25. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula28:25

       It's a big problem in addiction research, in addiction treatment. 60% overlap between narcissism and addiction-

   26. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee28:31

       Wow

   27. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula28:31

       ... which is why there's so much revolving door stuff and there's so much relapse, because the narcissism doesn't get addressed. So these are the things that bring folks in and because of that, we're not seeing them in clinical situations, and even when we do, something else is grabbing our attention. But that's the difference, is most people who are narcissistic, not only is this trait not causing them impairment, they seem to be doing better for it.

   28. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee28:55

       Yeah.

   29. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula28:55

       They're, they make aggressive business deals. They're willing to step over other people to get to the head of the line. They're, they put their... They, they're really attractive, and they put themselves out there, and they're suave and charismatic and charming, so they're successful in at least getting partners, not keeping partners-

   30. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee29:11

       [laughs]
6. 31:47 – 34:31

   "It's Not You": Validation and Radical Acceptance

   1. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee31:47

      That seems to be the central message I get when I'm reading your work, is that... well, one of the messages, I should say, is that you want us to feel validated. And if you look at the comments on the numerous videos you have made on YouTube on this topic, there's a really common theme, Dr. Ramani, which is people say, "Thank you. Thank you. Oh my gods, now I have a name for what I've been putting up with." That's why you do it, isn't it?

   2. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula32:16

      It is. Yeah, it is, because I think for the longest time, because of the way narcissism shows up in relationships, people, in a relatively short period of time, blame themselves. "This is my fault. Maybe I could be better. Maybe I could try harder. What's wrong with me?" 'Cause the narcissistic person, through all the gaslighting, has convinced the other person there's something wrong with them. That's why the book is called It's Not You, because people have... th- because over and over again, they're saying, "Okay, maybe I said that wrong. Maybe I could say that better." They're always trying to find a way to get it righter. And by giving it a name, it's not meant to be dismissive. It's not even meant to say walk away from this. I recognize that's not an option that's available to everyone. But it's really meant to say that this is a pattern. You're not losing your mind for saying something is not right here. And because it's a pattern, you can get to this place of radical acceptance. These sorts of entrenched rigid behavioral patterns that that other person has no insight into are not going to change, and you can make your decisions accordingly. And so that's really what it is. I'm telling people you're not losing your mind, that this is actually a pattern.

   3. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee33:25

      Mm-hmm.

   4. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula33:25

      And because many m- over the years, many therapists have been reluctant to call this out, they'll say, "Well, they're not in this room, so I really can't comment on their behavior." The hell you can't. If you don't, this poor client is just wandering around the world wondering what's wrong with them. So it's about giving people education. It's about giving them validation. And above all else, it's about telling them that this kind of behavior is not okay. It's not okay for someone to abruptly say, "Well, I just say what's on my mind. I, you know, I can't worry about how it affects other people." That's not okay. Doesn't mean that person's gonna stop saying it. But it's giving a person permission for saying, that behavior is not okay. I... and, and when... and it means that when I'm in the presence of it, it's okay to not feel okay. It's okay to disengage from it. It, it's probably not okay to engage with that person about the behavior, not because you don't have the right to, but because it's gonna get you nowhere, and then they're gonna rage at you, and what's the point? But it's, it's to get people to the point of saying, like, yeah, there's certain behavior that is just not acceptable, and I can make decisions on that basis versus what we've always been taught of, like, well, there's always a way to connect with everyone. No, there's not.

7. 34:31 – 42:06

   The Word 'Narcissist': Stigma, Misuse and Training Gaps

   1. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee34:31

      Is part of the problem here, when there's a reluctance to label things narcissism, is part of the problem that it's a word that has some quite serious negative connotations?

   2. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula34:46

      Mm-hmm.

   3. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee34:46

      Right? People often, I would say, misuse the term and will-

   4. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula34:52

      Mm-hmm

   5. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee34:52

      ... you know, a- as the term becomes more and more common, people are calling all kinds of people narcissists. You know, people will say-

   6. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula34:59

      Yeah

   7. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee34:59

      ... "Oh, my partner cheated on me. They're such a narcissist." Well-

   8. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula35:03

      Right

   9. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee35:03

      ... I don't think we can necessarily say that-

   10. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula35:05

       Mm-mm

   11. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee35:05

       ... because they cheated they're a narcissist.

   12. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula35:07

       No.

   13. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee35:07

       They might be.

   14. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula35:08

       Mm-hmm.

   15. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee35:09

       But they might not.

   16. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula35:09

       Right.

   17. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee35:09

       So I wonder, I don't know, do you like the words? Uh, has it got too much negative baggage associated with it, or do you still think it's a, a useful word for us to be using?

   18. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula35:20

       Isn't it a funny word, right? For a word that has so much negative baggage associated with it, the qualities that are encompassed within it are associated with success, right? So we will say... again, just this morning, was reading an article about someone, straight talker, speaks his mind, calls it out. He's so successful, billionaire, clear thinker. No, he's an unempathic, entitled bully, and those words showed up in the article, too, but never did the word narcissist, right? The guy was clearly a narcissist that they were writing about, right? But the very qualities you need to succeed in capitalism are narcissism. So that's where we, everyone wants-

   19. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee36:02

       Mm-hmm

   20. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula36:02

       ... everyone wants to be a narcissist then. You got the big house, your parents are so proud of you, isn't that great?

   21. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee36:06

       Mm-hmm.

   22. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula36:06

       But then we don't like the word. It's like, pick a lane, people, right? And so the word, though, does carry negative connotations. From the beginning, it's really only been showing up in the psychological literature. Probably late 1800s was the first time we saw Otto Rank, Sigmund Freud, even Havelock Ellis. These folks ta- wrote about it, and it was never a good thing. It's never been a word that was good in psychology. I mean, we would say that the primary narcissism of the infant is normal, that the infant is entirely self-serving because it serves a survival capacity. But beyond that, we don't think of it as good. And so although we reward egocentricity, right? When we look at our economy, influencers and people who draw attention to themselves, through good or bad ways, are the ones who are making money, who hold power in society. That gets concerning, right? Because the bad word is resulting in good things, and yet people don't wanna be called it, but they want- they have those qualities and they succeed. So I think we're sort of in this kind of really recursive loop.

   23. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee37:07

       Mm.

   24. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula37:07

       But you're absolutely right. I don't know a single person out there if you called them a narcissist, would be okay with it. Maybe a handful of people who are just sort of being snarky, but by and large, people don't like the word, right?

   25. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee37:18

       Mm.

   26. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula37:19

       So, and the other problem is, is the word is now being misused. Because it's a heavy word, because it's considered a, an un- unpleasant quality, you're right, the person who will go on TikTok and say, "My boyfriend cheated on me, he's a narcissist," he may not be a narcissist. I mean, he was obviously not a very good boyfriend. But he may not be a narcissist. I, I'll say, "You have to show me more." And, um, or the, you know, anything that people might say. People will say, "This person yelled at a flight attendant." I'm like, "That's not okay. Tell me more," right?

   27. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee37:51

       Mm.

   28. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula37:52

       So I think that we wanna go right in there and assume this person's narcissistic because they did a bad thing that hurt you. And what's then happened is it's, the word has lost some of its potency.

   29. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee38:03

       Yeah.

   30. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula38:03

       Which is concerning to me, 'cause it's a powerful and it's a meaningful word, and it's, it, it describes a lot of things that go together. Instead of having to ingre- list all the ingredients that make the soup, I can just say soup and you know what I'm talking about. But unfortunately, the word has been really co-opted.
8. 42:06 – 49:08

   Relationship Cycle: Idealization, Devaluation, Trauma Bond and Hoovering

   1. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee42:06

      So the subtitle- On your new book is Identifying and Healing From Narcissistic People. Okay, let's take that in two parts. Identifying.

   2. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula42:17

      Mm-hmm.

   3. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee42:18

      So you have mentioned some of these traits and behaviors. What else do people need to know perhaps to identify that someone in their life is exhibiting narcissistic behaviors? Is just knowing that list enough, or do they need to know other things? You mentioned before a term gaslighting. You've written about love bombing. I mean, maybe we need to speak to some of these other terms to really help people understand that, yes, this is-

   4. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula42:46

      Mm-hmm

   5. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee42:46

      ... or this might be going on in my life.

   6. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula42:49

      Yeah. Understanding the laundry list of w- how it shows up in a person, like the traits, if you will, that's step one. Step two is understanding the relationship dynamics that accompany those traits.

   7. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee43:00

      Okay.

   8. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula43:00

      It's almost like view the traits, and then you wanna... I mean, step one is understanding the traits. Step two is understanding what motivates the narcissistic person, and that's simple. I can... That takes me a second, which is they're motivated by power, control, dominance, and getting narcissistic supply, which is getting admired and revered and validated. And then power and dominance obviously give that to them all the time. So they want asymmetric relationships. They want relationships where they're in the power position, where it's all about them, where they're constantly getting validated. So, okay? So that's what's motivating them. So in any... In, in a way, it's like now you know how they're playing the chess game. It's always gonna be a power move. Everything they're doing is to overpower and dominate so they hel- hold the upper hand. That then takes us to the dynamics, how it shows up in a relationship. So the patterns you see in narcissistic relationships are, first of all, there's a cycle to these relationships. They often start off... And now, now right now I'm talking more about adult relationships, relationships we sort of choose, people we date, people we work with, people we're friends with. Talk about families and parents, it's a little bit different-

   9. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee44:06

      Mm

   10. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula44:06

       ... right, because we don't choose them. But in the relationships we choose, narcissistic people are very charming, charismatic, confident. In a strange way, can even be very comforting. They are well put together. They're attractive. This is exactly what we're told we're supposed to look for in a person. So we were talking about all this lack of empathy, entitlement, arrogance, not so nice. Charm, charisma, confidence, it's hard to undersell those, right?

   11. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee44:33

       Mm-hmm.

   12. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula44:33

       We're told those are good qualities. Attractiveness. So they have all this stuff we're told is good. People get drawn in, and early in the relationship it can feel otherworldly. It can feel fairytale. People will say, "I felt understood like I've never been f- felt before. I felt seen. I felt heard." The narcissistic person's a sprinter. They can give anywhere from 4 to 12 good, really good weeks. 4 to 12 weeks is a long time when it's, you're caught in some sort of love story or intense friendship story, but it's usually a love story. Then the devalue phase starts, and in the devaluing phase is where we see sort of the more classical narcissistic relationship behaviors kick in, the dismissiveness, the invalidation, minimization, gaslighting, manipulation, rage. You see the... You might see betrayal. You'll see deceit. You see, um... It, it runs hot and cold, and that's why the narcissistic relationship is so confusing. There'll be a couple of good days. You'll have some good sex. You'll have a fun weekend, and then boom, and you'll have no idea what's setting them off at first. Sh- So you blame yourself. You're like, "How is it we had such a good time last night, and they go to work and they come home and they're raging at me?" So people are like, "What did I do? Like, did I leave something out? Did I say something?" And, and then the, the narcissistic person might even, like I said, double down on that. Like, "Ugh, if only this house was a little cleaner," or, "Only if you... How come you don't ask me about my day?" Or, "How come you don't tell me I'm great?" And then you start saying, "I'm gonna have to tell them they're great." So you can see how this starts getting to be a really confusing-

   13. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee46:06

       Mm

   14. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula46:06

       ... cycle because then there's another good day, and you're like, "Oh, I must have just been misperceiving that. That's me. God, they had a tough day at work." And that cycle of hot, cold, good, bad, on, off creates something called the trauma bond, where a person engages in a lot of justification. They're very confused. They blame themselves. They doubt themselves. They start to justify the relationship because there's enough good days to keep them in. It's not always bad. And then there's what we call more of a discard cycle, which is when the narcissistic person may withhold or withdraw, maybe cheat on you, lie to you, or a person tries to get out of the relationship because they're getting burned out on it. And the final cycle, which doesn't always happen, is something called hoovering. Word makes more sense to you in the UK, vacuuming, right? Hoovering, sucking a person back in. Narcissistic people are about control and dominance. So when you get out, and, or it ends or they leave you, and their life doesn't go the way they want or they just want your supply back, your a- admiration and validation, or they, it's a cat and mouse game, can I get them back? They will then try to suck you back in. That doesn't always happen, but this sort of idealization, devaluation cycle is classical in these relationships.

   15. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee47:22

       Mm-hmm.

   16. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula47:22

       And it is cloaked in all this manipulation and confusion, but it's peppered with those good days, and that right there is the narcissistic relationship.

   17. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee47:31

       You know, Dr. Ramani, one of the... One of the most striking things to me as I was reading your latest book was that term you just mentioned, supply.

   18. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula47:43

       Mm-hmm.

   19. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee47:43

       Narcissistic supply. It really got me to pause and reflect because we normally think of that term supply in the context of drugs, don't we?

   20. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula47:56

       Mm, yeah, yeah.

   21. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee47:57

       You know?

   22. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula47:57

       Mm-hmm.

   23. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee47:58

       Not in the context of human behavior, but I thought-

   24. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula48:00

       Mm-hmm

   25. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee48:00

       ... it was really interesting. Why did you feel that was the word that described so well what a narcissist needs?

   26. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula48:08

       Well, you know what's so interesting about the world of narcissistic relationships is this really interesting vocabulary has developed around it that survivors use, flying monkeys, and love bombing, and, and narcissistic supply, and breadcrumbing, and all these other words that are very descriptive. So this concept of narcissistic supply, I, I did not, I did not come up with this term. It's been around for a while. It is this idea of the, it's the one-sided, one-way admiration and validation, and that doesn't just come from people saying... It's not just praise, right? It can be money. It can be status. It can be proximity to famous or notorious or wealthy people. It can be, um, having a very attractive partner. W- it can be, you know, again, so in other words, your attractiveness in their presence is supply. Um, it can be flirtation. It can be sex. All of these things can be supply. It's anything that feeds that need for admiration and soothes the narcissistic person's fragile ego.

9. 49:08 – 56:33

   Gaslighting Explained

   1. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee49:08

      Yeah, interesting. Gaslighting.

   2. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula49:12

      Mm-hmm.

   3. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee49:12

      That, I think, is another term that is growing in popularity or certainly growing in its use. Could you explain what gaslighting actually-

   4. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula49:24

      Right

   5. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee49:24

      ... is?

   6. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula49:24

      So gaslighting is a tool of psychological manipulation that involves dismantling the reality of the other person to destabilize them, and then to double down on that destabilization by confirming that you, that the, that there's something wrong with the person being gaslighted. So that's a long way of saying that you doubt the memories, experiences, perceptions, physical environment of a person, okay? So that's one step of gaslighting. In order for gaslighting to happen, there has to be some trust in the relationship, right? You have to-- It could be a family member. It could be a, a, a partner. It could even be a friend. It could even be an expert, like a physician. All of these people are in a position where there's some level of trust, so they're in a position to be able to gaslight, right? 'Cause it, even if it's a trust you have of a, like I said, a parent or a sibling or something like that. Then they, again, doubt reality, experience, perception. "You never, I never said that. You're remembering that wrong. I didn't put the keys there," that kind of thing. They then tell the person there's something wrong with them, okay? "I don't know. I'm a little worried about you. You're getting really paranoid. Like, I don't, I don't... You didn't see that text. I didn't send that text, and I've been noticing, like, you're, you're getting weirder. Like, have you seen a doctor?" So it's a real, like, "I'm worried about you." They'll even say, "I'm worried about you." So there's now this sense of there's something wrong with the person who's now already been told, "You've remembered something wrong," right?

   7. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee50:51

      So do you need both of those-

   8. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula50:54

      Yes

   9. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee50:54

      ... f- for this to be gaslighting?

   10. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula50:56

       You need both. Yes.

   11. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee50:56

       Because the, the, the first example that maybe you could take the perspective that two people have a difference in opinion-

   12. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula51:07

       Correct

   13. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee51:07

       ... over-

   14. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula51:07

       Right

   15. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee51:07

       ... a certain event, or people are recalling-

   16. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula51:09

       Yes

   17. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee51:09

       ... an event differently, but that's not gaslighting.

   18. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula51:12

       That's not gaslighting, no.

   19. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee51:13

       Okay.

   20. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula51:13

       So if they, if they s- the person says, "You said da, da, da," and the person says, "I don't remember saying that," and the other person says, "Yes, you did. Here's the text," and the other person's like, "Okay, I said it, or you're right. I, I don't remember saying it."

   21. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee51:29

       Yeah.

   22. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula51:29

       That's not gaslighting.

   23. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee51:31

       Okay.

   24. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula51:31

       They genuinely don't remember, but when the person showed them evidence, they're like, "Okay, clearly I said it." If a person does that with a gaslighter, so if you show the gaslighter evidence, right? 'Cause you would think like, "Done. I've won," right? The gaslighter will say, "What kind of sick person walks around showing text messages to people? Like, oh, I get, I guess our relationship's a court of law now? Is that what this is? I don't know that I wanna be in a relationship like this." Because the ultimate, ultimate play the gaslighter has is to threaten abandonment. So if you push them too hard, especially with the evidence base, that's when they'll say, "You know what? I don't think I wanna be in a relationship with a crazy person. I'm not interested in this. I'm not interested in living in a tribunal. So sure, gotcha. I hope you feel better about yourself that you had the text. You feel good now?"

   25. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee52:22

       Mm-hmm.

   26. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula52:22

       "You showed me who's boss. Yeah, I'm not interested in this." Now, that other person, they didn't wanna end the relationship. They just wanted to say, "This is what you said." And so now that other person puts that phone down and says, "No, no, no. That's not what this is about. No, no, no. Come on, back up, back up." And boom, gaslighter's back in power.

   27. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee52:40

       [gentle music] So many patients tell me that life just feels like a blur because of the pressures that so many of us face, the busyness, the overwhelm, the endless to-do list. I've heard it time and time again. Why haven't things changed? Why can't I bring these healthy habits into my life and make them stick? I've been a medical doctor for over two decades, and I have to say one of the most transformative practices I have ever seen is the practice of journaling, because it breaks the loop. We have these unconscious patterns, these subconscious patterns running our lives. We don't realize how many anxieties, and worries, and concerns we have whirring around, and journaling is a very simple way to get the stuff out of your brain. You get it down to paper, and you see it, and that does something really, really powerful. When does the new diet that you were following fall by the wayside? When does the new healthy habit that you were sticking to start to fall off track? That's the self-awareness that journaling is gonna give you. When people ask the right questions, they get the right answers, and those right answers allow them to change their life. Take up journaling today and watch your life start to change. You said earlier that ultimately all of these traits, all of these narcissistic traits are on some level covering up for a deep, deep insecurity. So it sounds to me as though when that, um, person gets shown the evidence that they, you know, were wrong or they actually did say that thing-

   28. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula54:23

       Mm-hmm

   29. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee54:23

       ... you're getting so, so close to the bone of exposing that, that-

   30. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula54:28

       That's right
10. 56:33 – 1:05:18

    Love Bombing and Red Flags

    1. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee56:33

       What's love bombing?

    2. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula56:35

       So love bombing is that intense indoctrination into a new narcissistic relationship. Traditionally, we think of love bombing as the sort of fairy tale, full court press, texts in the morning, afternoon, and evening, fancy dates, picnics on the beach, great sex. You take a big fabulous vacation on your fourth date. It's, um, everything... It's so many times ga- love bombing happens very quickly, and during the love bomb phase, a person feels overwhelmed, but it's not always that. Sometimes love bombing can show up as, let's say somebody is v- they're very open with the things that have gone wrong for them. So the narcissistic person is more of a, "My life has just been so hard. I'm so lucky I've met someone like you who, who, who gets it. You're so warm. You're so empathic. I mean, this, you're amazing." That's love bombing, too, right? So it's not a lot of bells and whistles. It's just hitting someone, and it's h- get- giving them the thing. The other person, they're give- the narcissistic person is giving that other person exactly the experience they want. During the love bombing phase, the narcissistic person is very attentive. Narcissistic people are very, very socially perceptive. They're, in a strange way, in a twisted, dark, bleak way, they can actually be quite emotionally intelligent. They can read the room beautifully, in a strange, again, in a very self-serving way, but they can.

    3. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee57:58

       Yeah.

    4. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula57:59

       And because of that, they're very skilled in the first few weeks and months of fi- knowing someone at tapping into their vulnerabilities, getting them to fess up to their greatest fears, their, their greatest concerns. They listen to the conversation. They realize where the pressure points are, and they file them away, 'cause they're gonna use them against that person later. So what feels like intense in- attentiveness, sort of everyone's fantasy, especially if a person had emotionally unavailable parents, it really feels like a love story.

    5. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee58:27

       Yeah.

    6. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula58:27

       So there's an intensity to love bombing. In some cases, love bombing may simply be someone who spends 24/7 with you. People will say, "Well, our first date lasted four days," kinda thing. I'm always like, that's a red flag right off the, the bat to me, because it overwhelms. And person will say, "Oh my gosh, we spent, like, two weeks together every single day. And before you know it, we're move in- we moved in together." Intensity of contact, frequent contact, quickly, like, it overtakes a person's life.

    7. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee58:53

       Mm.

    8. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula58:53

       Isolation could also sort of quietly happen during the love bombing phase. You spend all your time with this person. You're not spending time with your friends or family. You may even sort of change out your work schedule, so you get pulled away-

    9. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee59:06

       Yeah

    10. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula59:06

        ... from your sort of touchstones and landmarks, as it were. So over that time, in the love bombing phase, you're getting indoctrinated into something, believing that this person hung the moon. This is your love story. This is the greatest love story ever. There's a lot of that flowery language, a lot of soul mate talk, a lot of magical connection talk. It's that. It's the sort of metaphysical stuff that, in fact, this person, at, at this point, you're so kind of dazzled by this-

    11. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee59:34

        Yeah

    12. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula59:34

        ... bright light in your face that you're not really able to see what's happening. I used this example with someone once. Like, you know when you're, when you're driving into the setting sun, and it's so bright you really can't see the other cars? It's actually a little bit dangerous.

    13. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee59:47

        Mm.

    14. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula59:47

        But it's pretty. It's a sunset. It's dangerous, because you can't see the other stuff that's going on. And during that love bombing phase, you, you start to feel so, like, "I have to make this work. I wanna make this work." And then it forms a lot of the foundation of this trauma bond, of this justification material. We had such a good time. I've never been treated so well. They're everything I want. And you keep going back to that even when the relationship starts turning bad, which it will turn bad-

    15. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:00:14

        Yeah

    16. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:00:14

        ... in anywhere from, like, four weeks to about three to six months.

    17. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:00:20

        Let's be really clear on something there, because a lot of what you just described, it sounds very much from the, the picture you painted, at least initially, it sounds like someone's falling head over heels.

    18. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:00:34

        Yep. That's right.

    19. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:00:35

        And of course, for anyone who has been in that situation, it feels incredible.

    20. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:00:39

        Mm-hmm.

    21. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:00:40

        So it doesn't mean that every relationship where there is this intense phase where people are getting to know each other, they feel passionate about each other, they're having those kind of romantic first few weeks and months, that doesn't necessarily mean that that's a narcissistic relationship.

    22. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:01:01

        No, it does not.

    23. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:01:02

        That's where sometimes this conversation gets tricky. It's like, well, some of that sounds pretty nice, actually. Do you know what I mean?

    24. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:01:10

        100%, and it is nice. I mean it- but it is a tactic, and the, the challenge is, though, right, is that it's the too good to be true part, right? And w- even in the love bombing phase, the warning signs, the little red flags are starting to show up. Person might be chronically late, or be late to something that matters to you, or w- will, or blow off the things that matter to you, but then take you on spectacular dates that they organize. So a person then is like, "Oh, they, they are planning all these amazing dinners. So what if they didn't come to this, you know, this, this party that was-"

    25. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:01:43

        Because it, it's, it's all about them

    26. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:01:44

        ... "important to me."

    27. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:01:44

        It's all about them.

    28. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:01:45

        It's all about them. It's a show they're throwing for them to feel good. And, and you start to feel beholden sometimes during the love bombing phase. So there, it's subtle stuff, though. You can see how a person's taking you on these fabulous dates and so attentive, but they don't show up to things that matter to you.

    29. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:02:02

        Mm.

    30. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:02:02

        It's very easy to sort of say, like, oh, yeah, whatever. They don't want... I- it's gonna be so annoying for them to have to be introduced to everyone, and it's my thing anyhow. But it is important to you, and you asked them to come, and they didn't. And y- and what will happen, and again, I've worked with people who've been in narcissistic relationships that lasted 50 years. They'll say, "I still remember that. We were four months in, and I got this big promotion, and they threw this big celebration for me at work, and they didn't come to that." And, and they said, "It stuck in my craw for the remainder of the relationship, but I didn't think anything of it at the time, 'cause other things were so great." So here's the thing. If you are in a relationship where you're falling in love, and it's idealized, and they're doing all these idealized things, and the other stuff never, the other shoe never falls, there is no manipulation, there is no invalidation, there's none of that stuff, you won the romance lottery. No. We're all jealous of you.
11. 1:05:18 – 1:16:58

    Healing: Awareness, Radical Acceptance, Grief and Individuation

    1. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:05:18

       So much of it relates to how long this relationship is going on. And don't, make no mistake, there are people who have been through two-year narcissistic relationships who are almost as wrecked as people who've been through 20-year narcissistic relationship. So it's not meant to say it's fully a dose response, that the few, less time, the easier it is. The only thing that makes it easier when there's less time is your life might be a little less intertwined, but in, within two years you might have gotten married, you might have had kids. So things can happen in a short period of time. But time and exposure, intensity of the relationship all matters. But when it comes down to it, it is the moment when a person, that moment the person recognizes something's not right here, and they start getting the roadmap as it were. Like, ah, this might qualify as this sort of narcissistic, antagonistic, toxic, call it what you will relationship. That awareness is really step one, because now you're saying like, "No, this is not normal and I'm the problem." Like, slowly getting this, like, their pattern, this is not okay. The next piece is radical acceptance, and to me, radical acceptance means a person is m- is really starting the healing process in earnest. And radical acceptance is the acceptance that these patterns, these behaviors, these dynamics are not going to change, not ever. And certainly not on your watch. And so the reason many narcissistic relationships last as long as they do is people keep getting lost in a cycle called future faking. Now more often than not, they're future faked by the narcissist. "Okay, okay, it's gon- listen, listen, things are gonna quiet down after I get the promotion." "No, no, no, we're gonna move out of here in about six months," or, "I'm gonna get therapy." So everything's based on a someday when, someday when, someday when. And they make these promises, no matter how badly, how abusive the relationship is, people are say, "Okay, I've invested so much into this. We have kids, we have a home, we have whatever. Let me give it another six months or a year." 'Cause it's hard to change the status quo, especially if you still care about the person. 'Cause some people might even say, "This is abusive. I still love this person," strangely enough. And a lot of people will feel shame about that, and there's no shame in that, 'cause you do have a history with them.

    2. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:07:24

       Mm-hmm.

    3. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:07:24

       You did build things with them, and there's some things about them you still care about. This is not, you know, you're not, th- this isn't about like, well, they're a narcissist. Like, this is a person you had a life with and a history with. And so you do love them, but it's also not good for you. But the radical acceptance is that slow understanding that this is not going to change. I can promise you that. I've been doing this too long. That's the good thing about being old. I'm like, I can really say this [laughs] definitively in a way I couldn't have done early in my career. And so the, so as people get into radical acceptance, it's not just a radical acceptance that they're not gonna change. 'Cause radical acceptance doesn't mean that you're signing off on what they're doing. You're not giving into it. You're seeing it clearly. And radical acceptance is also especially for people who can't leave these relationships. It's the, it's the acceptance that even if you get it, it doesn't mean that their hurtful words won't hurt you, right? So it's, it's also the awareness that this was hurtful. After a person gets to genuine radical acceptance, they are hit by a tidal wave of grief, a grief like no other because you're like, "Okay, I really was living on the assumption that this was going to get better. I was living with hope," right? And sadly, this healing process, there's a little bit of a dismantling of hope in that relationship. Plenty of hope for you, but not for them. And so for people who have built their entire life on a foundation or their future or their hope on the idea that this thing was ultimately gonna work its way out and it's not, that's grief. It's like a death.

    4. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:08:55

       Mm-hmm.

    5. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:08:55

       It's a loss of the idea that you'd have an intact family. It's a loss of the idea that you have a love story. It's a loss of the idea that your kids would grow up with two parents if you decide to leave the relationship or that your kids would even grow up seeing a healthy marriage. All these things that you hope for are now having to be put aside. That's loss.

    6. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:09:13

       Mm-hmm.

    7. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:09:13

       And there's grief, and that grief is real. Most people who go through narcissistic abuse and are healing from it will say, "While the grief part was a nightmare, it helped so much to see it as grief," 'cause we usually sort of use the term grief only to talk about death. But as that time goes on and a person is able to get more in touch with that grief, with the radical acceptance, then they're making choices. Am I going to stay? Am I gonna keep engaging in this relationship? Am I gonna stay in this relationship? Am I gonna leave this relationship? And I know you can heal either way. It's a little bit harder when you stay, I will say that, because it's almost like, uh, secondhand smoke, right? I mean, for lack of a better example. If you're still living with a smoker, no matter what you do, air filters, open windows, it's gonna, you're still gonna, it's gonna affect you a little.

    8. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:09:59

       Mm.

    9. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:09:59

       Whereas if you get to move out on your own and have a house where that smoke doesn't exist, you'll feel a little better.

    10. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:10:05

        Yeah.

    11. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:10:05

        But that's not to say that there isn't a sort of proverbial system of air filters you can create and work around and awareness of the limitations of this relationship. And then it really, the healing process is a lot of infrastructure building. It might be therapy, it might be support groups. It's definitely building up social supports. A lot of people put probably 90% of their psychological bandwidth into the impossibility of making their narcissistic relationship work. I always say you gotta do a re- reversal. Just give the bare minimum to the narcissistic relationship because no matter what, it's just supply to them, and really take the rest of that bandwidth, start building up mutual, healthy, empathic, respectful, compassionate relationships. Create that space in your life. Have those places, those soft places to land. And then it really does become about the, the next part of the journey, which is really where surviving starts to evolve more into thriving-

    12. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:11:01

        Yeah

    13. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:11:01

        ... which is individuation. Get, actually allowing yourself to even acknowledge as an authentic self of you separate from this relationship. Give voice to the things you care about, your interests, who you are, what you stand for, what your values are. Narcissistic people, in a way, they just sort of block the sun. You don't get to see these things in yourself. And even if you don't leave the relationship, as you disengage, as you no longer get sort of psychological, any kind of s- you know, sort of psychological meaning from that relationship because there really wasn't any, you can start saying, "Who am I separate from this relationship?"

    14. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:11:35

        Mm.

    15. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:11:36

        And that becomes a very revelatory moment. And then over time, you really are able to recraft your narrative as one where you're not in service to the n-

    16. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:11:44

        Yeah

    17. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:11:44

        ... narcissistic person, but rather I'm a whole person separate from them with dreams and wants and needs, and you learn to voice those needs. And you start to feel more whole and strong again, and I say this not from a naive place. I've seen m- many survivors do this, and most of the survivors I work with are in process. This isn't easy. Narcissistic abuse changes a person. You don't ever come back wholly. People will... You become a little less trusting. Uh, I think outside observers would say survivors might be a little bit cynical. I don't like, I don't like them being called... I don't mind the word cynical. You wanna call me cynical, call me cynical. I think they're more discerning. I think people are a little bit more aware. They see red flags. They distance a bit more. It's about allowing yourself to disengage-

    18. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:12:29

        Mm

    19. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:12:29

        ... from people who invalidate you. So it's, it's a really an overhaul of a human being. This doesn't happen quickly. For some people, it can take decades, and like I said, as a survivor myself, I can tell you I carry some of these wounds to this day, and I'm never gonna, I'm never gonna not have them. There are holes in me. There are neuroses in me. There's self-doubt in me, self-blame in me. That all comes from that origin. That was my story. I'm lucky that-

    20. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:12:51

        Yeah

    21. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:12:51

        ... I got to turn it into working with people on it, but it's always a burden I'm gonna have to carry. And instead of believing I can fully lighten it, I almost embrace it as part of who I am.

    22. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:13:02

        I think that comes across in your writing actually, particularly in this latest book. It does feel, dare I say it, personal. It, it feels-

    23. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:13:12

        Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm

    24. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:13:12

        ... that you are on this mission. At times-

    25. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:13:16

        Yep

    26. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:13:16

        ... there's real emotion in the book about how strongly you feel about these concepts.

    27. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:13:23

        Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

    28. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:13:24

        And, you know, it was, it was really... it was one of those things I took away. It was like, wow, Dr. Ramani really, really is doing this from a place of passion to get this message out there-

    29. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:13:33

        Mm-hmm

    30. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:13:33

        ... so that these people who are suffering-
12. 1:16:58 – 1:25:19

    Work, Partner and Parent: Narcissistic Parents and Emotional Abuse

    1. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:16:58

       When it comes, though, to narcissistic relationships, I, I thought about this in three ways, right? At work, let's say your boss is narcissistic.

    2. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:17:10

       Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

    3. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:17:11

       You know, you're- maybe you're choosing to be at that job. Of course, if you can leave and get another job, okay, great. That could be a, you know, a fantastic way-

    4. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:17:20

       Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm

    5. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:17:20

       ... to move on from it. Of course, not everyone can. So I thought about work, then I thought about, you know, intimate relationships when it's your boyfriend or your girlfriend or your wife-

    6. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:17:30

       Mm-hmm

    7. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:17:30

       ... or your husband or whoever it might be, because you've chosen on some level-

    8. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:17:35

       Mm-hmm

    9. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:17:35

       ... that partner.

    10. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:17:36

        Yeah.

    11. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:17:36

        Not always.

    12. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:17:37

        Yeah.

    13. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:17:37

        But you know, you know, I guess let's say you've chosen that partner-

    14. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:17:40

        Mm-hmm

    15. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:17:40

        ... and you've invested a lot of yourself-

    16. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:17:43

        Mm-hmm

    17. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:17:43

        ... in that relationship. Of course, you could leave, but there may be children, there may be financial constraints, and all kinds of things which make that dynamic particularly challenging.

    18. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:17:55

        Yeah.

    19. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:17:55

        But then you've also got potentially a narcissistic relationship with a parent. Let's say your mother-

    20. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:18:02

        Mm-hmm

    21. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:18:02

        ... or your father had-

    22. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:18:03

        Yeah

    23. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:18:03

        ... narcissistic traits.

    24. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:18:05

        Mm-hmm.

    25. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:18:06

        These three situations strike me as being quite different, and maybe that they need a different strategy f- to help people move through them.

    26. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:18:16

        Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. They're very different.

    27. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:18:18

        Yeah.

    28. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:18:19

        Mm-hmm. So, you know, there, there's sort of this... there, there are narcissistic relationships we, quote unquote, "choose," if you will, right? Because we, you know... other than, you know, there's obviously some people who are arranged into marriage, forced into marriage. I, and I'm, I'm aware of that.

    29. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:18:32

        Yeah.

    30. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:18:33

        And that narcissism's the real problem there. But it's, um... but relation- you know, relationships like a boss, even a friend, certainly a partner- And then there's the relationships we didn't choose, the narcissistic parents we were born to or the siblings we, we, we grew up with, who as children they may not have been narcissistic per se, but that definitely evolves and becomes an issue in our adult relationship with them. A narcissistic parental relationship is very harmful. It has negative psychological harm for- on people for a lifetime. There's no two ways about it. Because the narcissistic parent is deeply selfish, entitled, all the stuff we've talked about, and basically views the child as existing for their needs. The child's needs and wants are shamed, devalued. The child then gets indoctrinated to believe that their wants, their needs, even their individual sense of self, is not allowed to exist because it's actually almost a... It's hubris to exist outside of their parent. You, you do, you choose the career path that parent wanted. You do the things that they want, and I don't mean in the mentor-y way. I understand that some parents can be heavy-handed, like, "You're gonna study biology," or, "You're gonna do this," or, "You're gonna go in the family business," and blah blah blah blah. I mean, that's just a little bit domineering and authoritarian and probably annoying.
13. 1:25:19 – 1:36:06

    Getting In vs. Getting Stuck, and Finding Your Sense of Self

    1. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:25:19

       You've obviously worked over many decades now with many, many people who have been suffering within narcissistic relationships.

    2. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:25:31

       Mm-hmm.

    3. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:25:31

       I'm absolutely not putting any blame here on anyone, to be really clear.

    4. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:25:36

       Mm-hmm.

    5. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:25:37

       My question is, are there certain patterns that you have observed that make it more likely that you're going to end up in a narcissistic relationship? Are there some traits that make it more likely?

    6. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:25:55

       So let's divide it up, right? Because there's two processes here. There's the getting into a relationship, and there's the getting stuck in a relationship, right?

    7. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:26:03

       Mm-hmm.

    8. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:26:03

       Because getting in, everyone is vulnerable to narcissistic folks, right? Attractive, charming, charismatic, confident, successful. Come on. I mean, it's, you know, really, unless you're really like, "I'm gonna really try to find the least successful, unattractive, but really sweet person," it's usually not what most of us are, are doing. So somebody comes along with those qualities, charm, charisma, all the rest of it, most people are gonna pay attention to that. So I'm saying everyone is universally vulnerable to getting in. The difference is, is this, the getting stuck, right?

    9. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:26:34

       Yeah.

    10. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:26:35

        And that's where we see a difference. So this is where I te- tell folks, everyone's like, "How could I have been so dumb to get in?" I said, you weren't dumb to get in. All of us get in. Once you're in, and especially once the love bombing has passed and you're getting into the devaluing phase or at the early stages of trauma bonding, then there are vulnerabilities to getting stuck. And some of the vulnerab- the vulnerabilities to getting stuck are quite variable. Some of the ones you'd expect, people who had very adverse traumatizing early childhood environments, they're more vulnerable to getting stuck. People who had narcissistic parents, where these kinds of toxic patterns were normalized, definitely vulnerable to getting stuck. People who are rescuers and fixers. People who feel like, "I can do more. I can, I, I can be a doer. I can be a caregiver. I can make this better." That might be a role somebody carried early in life, almost as a attachment response or a trauma response to fix things so they could maintain closeness and a sense of safety. So those folks are often vulnerable. Believe it or not, the one group that's actually vulnerable to getting into these relationships, but probably a little less maybe stuck, but I think they also do get stuck, are people who come from very happy families. So these are fa- families where parents were happily married, and we believe in you, and we believe in love and love, love, and togetherness, love. Those folks believe th- love solves everything. And they'll often have families, like, "We can figure this out for you," and just love them more. And so there can be almost this sort of optimistic bias that folks-

    11. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:28:06

        Yeah

    12. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:28:06

        ... who come from these really happy, happy, happy places will say, "Okay, like, I can make this work, and we've had some good times." And they might get into this really sort of incredibly fixer mode. I call it the happy family paradox. The one advantage that group has is, because one thing that happens to a lot of folks who go through narcissistic relationships, is they can get quite isolated and feel unsupported. Those folks who come from strong social networks-

    13. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:28:30

        Mm-hmm

    14. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:28:30

        ... even if they got isolated from those networks for a minute, when they get out, they have a soft place to land, which can really facilitate their healing. But also, there are qualities of the relationship that can make it more possible for people nes- to maybe get in much more quickly. Like, people who are in a rush to get into a relationship. People might say, "All my friends are getting married. I want to have a kid," whatever it may be. They might say, "I'm 38. This is who's in front of me." And they might feel like, "I, I gotta, I gotta keep going. I'm not gonna go back out there and start dating again." People who are going through transitions in their life, so they've moved to a new city, they've come out of a relationship, they've just left a job, they're ex- are going through grief over another major loss. Those folks are also very vulnerable to getting into these relationships. So there's these things that are happening in our life that sometimes sort of pull us off our mindfulness. And you're right. I r- I, exactly. I gave this lecture to an audience, and after I went through the list of what keeps us stuck, they're like, "You just listed just about everybody."

    15. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:29:30

        [laughs]

    16. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:29:30

        And I'm like, kinda yeah, because the trauma bond is-

    17. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:29:33

        Yeah

    18. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:29:33

        ... a sort of universal phenomenon in many ways. And so, but if you're not in as much of a rush, and I will tell you, that will help. But I'll tell you this, the thing that is, that can help people, uh, in addition to sort of knowledge, so to protect themselves in these relationships, is to develop a s- a, a fully formed sense of self. We don't do that enough. We're s- we're very other referenced. Like, I should be going to this university. I should be having this kind of job.

    19. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:30:01

        Mm-hmm.

    20. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:30:01

        I should be living in this neighborhood. I should be doing this. I should be making this money by this age, and I should be... You know, we, we're very externally referenced versus, who are you? What are you about?

    21. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:30:11

        Mm-hmm.

    22. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:30:11

        What do you stand for? We don't have folks grapple with those questions. It's a shame because we have such a rich opportunity to do this with kids, particularly in middle school and high school, and we don't do it.

    23. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:30:21

        Yeah.

    24. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:30:22

        I think we could really lose some of the classical school curriculum and just do this work, because it can't happen in a lot of families. I think the error has always been like, well, this is the stuff that should be happening at home. Well, it's not happening at home-

    25. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:30:34

        Yeah

    26. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:30:34

        ... for 80% of people.

    27. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:30:36

        Th- th- th- this is such a key point, isn't it? This, this whole idea of where does your sense of self come from?

    28. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:30:41

        Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

    29. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:30:41

        Have you spent time on that?

    30. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:30:44

        Mm-hmm.
14. 1:36:06 – 1:44:54

    Boundaries, Advice for Narcissistic Readers, and the DEEP Mnemonic

    1. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:36:06

       Of course, putting in place the right boundaries is-

    2. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:36:10

       Mm-hmm

    3. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:36:10

       ... really important for all of us, whether we are-

    4. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:36:13

       Mm-hmm

    5. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:36:13

       ... in narcissistic relationships or not.

    6. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:36:16

       Mm-hmm.

    7. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:36:17

       And people often struggle with this, especially when they've never used boundaries. It can feel very foreign and you, you don't quite know what you're doing because you're not used to doing it.

    8. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:36:29

       It's a tricky conversation.

    9. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:36:31

       [laughs]

    10. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:36:31

        Boundaries. I, I think that what's so difficult is I've worked with so many hundreds, thousands of people who have gone through narcissistic relationships. The boundaries conversation's a thorny one because you gotta remember, boundaries don't work in a narcissistic relationship. And when we tell people to make boundaries in those relationships, we're sending them in to get hurt. There's no point. The boundary has to be very interior, so it's an internal boundary. The internal boundary might be, I'm not taking the bait. I am not going to engage with them on this point. I- it might even be a boundary, honestly, of I'm not gonna share with them the good news I got because they're just going to make fun of me. That's the boundary.

    11. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:37:07

        Mm-hmm.

    12. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:37:07

        So I think that the mistake we make is that we think that boundaries are- ... are things we communicate to someone else about their behavior. Good, good for you if you've got people in your life where that works, okay? But that's so rarely the case for people who are work- who are in the place I am. And somebody's like, "Boundaries, boundaries, boundaries," and people are like, "What's wrong with me? Maybe I'm the problem 'cause I can't set a boundary." I'm like, there's no setting a boundary here. The boundary is within you. And, like, I'm gonna give you that classical example. The mistake people will make is that, "I'm gonna tell the narcissistic person this cool thing happened," or, "I have this good news," and then they, they say terrible things, and they mock you, and w- so don't do it anymore. A boundary is when something good happens to me, they're not gonna know about it, not from me. And if something bad happens to me, I'm gonna have to find a different place to share it, not with them. That's a boundary.

    13. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:37:56

        Mm.

    14. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:37:57

        You see what I'm saying? And so I think we have... So much of our conversation of boundary is, "I'm gonna tell them I don't want it, that they can't do that, they shouldn't say that." Not only are they not gonna listen, they're gonna gaslight and humiliate and shame you into oblivion. Save yourself the trouble, set the boundaries within you, engage in radical acceptance, and disengage.

    15. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:38:17

        Yeah.

    16. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:38:17

        Disengagement is a boundary.

    17. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:38:19

        Yeah. No, super useful. I don't feel we've even scratched the surface of the content that's within your new book, It's Not You: Identifying and Healing from Narcissistic People. So for anyone who's interested in this topic, it really is a fabulous read that's gonna help people, you know, identify and then go on to heal. To finish off our conversation today, Dr. Ramani, I have, I guess, two final questions to ask you, two quite different questions.

    18. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:38:47

        Mm-hmm.

    19. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:38:48

        The first question is if someone has been listening to this conversation and thinks, "You know what? I think I may be a narcissist."

    20. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:39:01

        Hmm. Mm-hmm.

    21. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:39:01

        "I think I have got a lot of those traits, and I'm harming the people around me."

    22. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:39:08

        Mm-hmm.

    23. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:39:09

        What advice would you give to that person?

    24. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:39:11

        First of all, good for you. If you're having that kind of insight and self-reflective process, A, you may not be a [laughs] narcissistic person. But if indeed really you were just like, "Okay," like, "Yeah, I'm listening to this, and I'm having the painful realization," or you look around and you see a lot of burned bridges, I think that armed with that kind of insight, while in general narcissistic people don't make significant changes in their personality, in fact, most of us don't make significant changes in our personality, we can change behavior. It's hard. It's hard because these behaviors are often very reactive and automatic. And therapy for people who are narcissistic often is a very, very long-term process, especially for a per- and a person might look back and say, "I get where this c- came from. It was a lot of adversity. These are survival patterns. I, I'm like this because I... the only way I can feel safe." Those are incredibly important insights, and good trauma-informed therapy, it, for somebody who's had that kind of origin story, can actually go a long way. Finding that therapist you, you know, you feel comfortable with, but recognizing this is hard work. And almost like anyone with a chronic health condition, where every single day they might have to adhere to medication or do physical therapy or do something for their chronic health condition, a person who's narcissistic, who doesn't wanna do this harm anymore, who doesn't wanna live in this space anymore, has to be mindful all the time, has to think about, "How can I take responsibility and accountability here? How can I show up-"

    25. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:40:30

        Mm

    26. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:40:30

        ... and be aware of the other person's needs and wants and not minimize them? How can I do the work internally to manage this sense of internal shame and vulnerability and all of that?" It is a lot of work-

    27. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:40:43

        Yeah

    28. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:40:43

        ... and it is a commitment, and it is a lifelong commitment. So if somebody wants to do that, there are good folks out there who can do that work, but it is a lifelong commitment.

    29. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:40:51

        Okay. Great. 'Cause I, I do wanna make sure there's hope for people who, you know, as I say, feel that they may be, you know, giving out-

    30. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:40:59

        Mm-hmm. I agree

Episode duration: 1:44:54