Signs You're Drinking Alcohol Not Because You Like It, BUT Because You're Suffering | Andy Ramage

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 0:00 What are some of the signs that might indicate somebody is drinking alcohol, not because they like it, but they're doing it because of either social expectation or because they're trying to numb some internal discomfort?

Andy Ramage 0:20 I think it's a really simple test. For example, if I said to all the middle lane drinkers... So my advice is always aimed at those in the middle lane. So I'll ju- I'll just set that up, and that's very much my story. Middle lane for me is the average drinker. So if you've got your alcoholic, your dependent, alcohol use disorder severe, and those that abstain, everyone else is in the middle lane. So you're looking at hundreds of millions of people, probably about two billion people worldwide. If I said to most people, "Take a break. Stop drinking for 90 days," I would say for lots of people, the thought of that would drive fear into their hearts, the thoughts of having to deal with those stressful events, the thoughts of having to deal with those social events and not consume alcohol. And I think if there's any sense of fear or a rejection of that, I think that's a really good indication that maybe alcohol has a, a grip over you than you don't realize.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:11 So basically, if you have a healthy relationship with alcohol, then you're suggesting that the thought of not consuming any for 90 days should actually do nothing for you.

Andy Ramage 1:26 Absolutely.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:26 It sh- it should just be like, "Yeah, okay, no worries, I can do that." But if you're starting to push back or start to tell stories or make excuses, you're saying that might indicate some kind of problematic relationship?

Andy Ramage 1:39 Yeah, and I think it's on a sliding scale, isn't it? That whole middle lane, there's the, those that drink very f- infrequently and those that drink, you know, quite regularly that are not in that place of dependency. But I think what we find is we've got this cultural blind spot to alcohol and the impact that it's having on our lives. In many ways, we treat it like water or a fizzy pop in many ways, and we consume it all the time for every celebration and commiseration and day that ends in Y and stressful day. And I don't think we realize the impact that it's having on us in, in many ways until very often we remove it. And I think that's why I always like people to take a break just to have a look. What does it feel like for you, the other side of that break when you join me on the fun side of the island, as I like to say, for long enough to experience life without alcohol? And you might find that many of those things that you thought you needed alcohol for to socialize, that actually you're even more social, that you have more fun. And maybe what's underneath some of those low mood, maybe mild anxiety, maybe depression, a lot of those things for lots of people, not for everyone, often disappear when you remove alcohol, even as an average drinker.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:46 You mentioned 90 days. Why is 90 days so important in your view?

Andy Ramage 2:53 I think it's that longer term break. 28 days is great. Any break is great, in my opinion. Uh, and 28 days feels really achievable, but I think over 90 days you start to get the results and returns that can transform your life like it did for me 10 years ago as a middle lane drinker. It was the 90-day break where I started to lose weight. I started to get fitter. My mental clarity started to improve. My anxiety disappeared and never came back. You know, I started to feel better and look better. I started to sleep better. My relationships were better. It was such a powerful experience. I'd love more people to have that experience as an average drinker because once you've got that lived experience of that type of thing, you're much more motivated-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 3:33 Yeah

Andy Ramage 3:33 ... to stay on that adventure.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 3:36 Throughout my medical career as a doctor, one of the things I've always been keen to do is to help my patients make changes to their lifestyle, change their daily behaviors, because so much of what we see these days is driven by our collective modern lifestyles. And one thing, Andy, I've noticed is that too often we try and change our behaviors without understanding the role that those behaviors play in our life. And what I've found is that in order to really change a behavior in the long term, you have to really identify and understand what role did that serve in the first place. So for example, with alcohol, if your alcohol intake is a way of managing the stress in your life, well, yeah, you can go on a 28-day break as many people do in January, for example. But what I've found, and I'd be interested to hear your experience here, I've also found that a 28-day break, whilst for some people can be really helpful, I've also found that it wasn't long enough for them to realize, "What is alcohol doing for me?" Do you know what I mean? I don't know if, if you-

Andy Ramage 4:47 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 4:47 ... found that at all.

Andy Ramage 4:48 Oh, completely. So if you look at it in terms of optimal performance, as an average drinker, at the end of the day, you're consuming what is a drug. And people don't like to hear that word because they like to disassociate from what it actually is. But as middle lane drinkers, it is. We can't ignore that. You know, there's a great quote from Kent Donington. He wrote a book called Addiction and Virtue, and there's a quote in there that I love, and it's this: "Those with severe addictions are like contemporary prophets that we ignore to our own demise because they teach us a great truth about ourselves." And I think there's so much of that when it comes to alcohol. We forget that actually we're messing with this thing that is highly addictive and can disrupt our performance in every which way. And I really believe that most adults in the UK, 70%, are underperforming in almost every domain of their life without even realizing because of their middle lane ra- relationship with alcohol. So if we bring it back to performance, what does alcohol do? It destroys your sleep, and we know all of the research around poor sleep and performance. It destroys your mental health because it blows up our neurochemistry. So on the back of that, I think it leads to this cascade of underperformance in all domains from our parenting to our performance In the office. And like you say, I think you need to get a longer term break from it to see that and experience it and feel it. And then when you do, it's like a penny drop. It's like this alcohol-free magic that happens that I describe all the time. It's like getting a superpower back. It genuinely is. It's like you've removed the kryptonite from your backpack that you've been carrying for the last decade or two. 'Cause that's another thing about alcohol is middle lane drinkers, we don't just drink for a year, we drink for decades, don't we? Most people start drinking in their teens and never stop. Imagine decades of underperformance, and when you remove it for that longer period, like 90 days, you get a glimpse of your optimal self. That is such a powerful experience. I think that's why millions and millions of people are coming to this same realization at the same time.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 6:44 I think our first conversation together was in 2018.

Andy Ramage 6:48 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 6:49 You know, maybe coming up to six years ago maybe. Maybe five, six years ago, something like that. What is the state of the alcohol-free movement today compared to about then?

Andy Ramage 7:04 It's been a transformation. I think we were probably at quite a pivotal moment in time. I think the five years prior to that, so I'm 10 years alcohol-free pretty much-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 7:12 Congratulations

Andy Ramage 7:13 ... at the moment, which has been just such a wonderful adventure, which I'm so grateful for. But the first five years, no one got it. They didn't really understand the middle lane. It was very much still that black-and-white thinking. You're either addicted to alcohol or you're not, so you drink. There was, there wasn't the middle lane. It didn't exist. And I think our conversation did a great job of broadening that sense that the average drinker can get these incredible results. And what we've seen over the last five years is that the alcohol-free drinks industry, a good indicator, has grown by 500% since we last spoke. I think when we last spoke, there wasn't really an alcohol-free alternative. Now they're everywhere. You've got the incredible work that Bill Schufelt's doing with Athletic Brewing. You've got Lucky Saint is available pretty much everywhere in the UK. I think that's changed the game entirely. There's a cultural shift happening which is so wonderfully exciting, and I'll give you a good example of that. I love Ireland, my wife's Irish, and stereotypically the Irish might have been labeled as, as big drinkers, and a lot of Irish people that I know don't like that label. And actually, I would say of all of the places globally now, I think Ireland's at the forefront of the alcohol-free movement. It's incredible. I was there in the summer. I was in a beautiful place called The Strand in Dunmore East. In this, it's a bar restaurant, pints of zero, zero were flying off the shelves, bottles of zero, zero. NoSecco. I go up the road to the traditional Irish pub called Powells Pub. In there, a massive selection of alcohol-free drinks. I even went to the chip shop, right? The fish and chip shop in Dunmore East. They had three different types of alcohol-free alternatives. That is a cultural transformation.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 8:49 I mean, this surprises me, right? Because you're right. Rightly or wrongly, I think there may be this perception of a drinking culture in Ireland and, and quite frankly-

Andy Ramage 9:00 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 9:00 ... the UK as well, right? So I'm not, I'm not at all saying it in a, in a different way, but do you have any idea why this is growing so much in Ireland?

Andy Ramage 9:10 Yeah. I think it's because the Irish people are just great people to be around. They have the greatest pubs in the world. But is the pub about the alcohol or is it about the people? And I think they're starting to realize it's about the people as much as it ever was about the alcohol. They are just a funny nation, right? That dark sense of humor that they have. You will see three generations in an Irish pub. You don't see that as much in the UK.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 9:33 Mm.

Andy Ramage 9:33 But it's a focal point of community. It's a focal point of connection. I think what they're realizing, now they've got an option they never had before to be in those places and not necessarily drink alcohol. That means they can't drive the car. That, that means they're going to underperform in their career the following day. They can still have the banter and the craic, as the Irish say, but do it in a different way. I'll, I'll give you another example. I was in this beautiful village called Ardmore Village, and I walked into this pub and I saw a scene that I'd seen a million times before. There was an older guy at the bar drinking his Guinness, probably in his 70s, 80s. His son walked in, and I could tell it was his son because he looked like him, and his son sat next to him on that stool. That's a scene that we've seen millions of time, almost handing over the baton-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 10:12 Yeah

Andy Ramage 10:12 ... of propping up the bar and drinking his Guinness, and it was one of the greatest moments of my, my life. This is so ridiculous, but it like thrills me. And he ordered his Guinness, and he sat next to his dad and he drunk his Guinness. His Guinness was a zero, zero. That is a cultural shift. I almost wanted to run over and give him a big hug. It wouldn't have been culturally appropriate in that pub in Ireland, but I wanted to. I was like, that's incredible. We are seeing this change right before our eyes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 10:37 Well, what's driving this shift? Because we did c- you know, touch on this in our first conversation but, you know, growing up when we grew up in this country, in the UK, you kind of had to drink pretty much or you certainly felt you had to drink in order to fit in. That was certainly my experience. A- as, as I reflected on in that conversation, I'm not even entirely sure I ever wanted to drink, but I did it and started to fit in with the people around me. It's only been in the last few years where I've actually reset that relationship and realized, actually, I don't really want to drink. My life's better when I don't. What do you think is going on culturally to explain why this movement is suddenly exploding? Because everywhere you go, particularly in the Western world because I think not in every country, I mean, we can maybe touch on why that might be. Let's talk about the UK or Ireland. Why are we seeing this massive shift to alcohol-free living?

Andy Ramage 11:41 I think probably the demand was always there. It was just never realized before. There was no o- opportunity. There was no availability of alcohol-free drinks, and I think that's really driving it. I think the big alcohol brands have realized there's a demand, therefore there's a lot more marketing that we're starting to see about zero, zeros everywhere, which again, the marketing spends, it works. And also I think culturally people are becoming more aware. They're becoming aware that this substance, which is alcohol, that is in their life, that is so ubiquitous, isn't it? It's at every celebration-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 12:11 Mm

Andy Ramage 12:11 ... commiseration, kid's birthday, day ending in y and stressful day. It certainly was in my life, and it is for most middle lane drinkers. I think they're starting to wake up to the fact, is it actually serving me in the way that I thought it was? And I think there's a cultural awakening happening where people are realizing everything alcohol promised it takes away 100 times more, and alcohol-free is giving you everything that alcohol promised. More time, more energy, you know, more clarity, better mental health, better physical health, better at your job, an even better parent. People are learning to connect in a different way. There's now grown-up opportunities to socialize without consuming alcohol, and I think there's just this wonderful awakening at the same time. And also I put it down to podcasts.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 12:52 Mm.

Andy Ramage 12:53 I think you've got a massive part to play in this. I think our conversation that we had last time to this day is still influencing people. I got a message just yesterday. I was talking to one of the coaches that I train. I now train coaches. I was training her yesterday. Her name's Henny, and she said to me, I mentioned I was coming onto the podcast, and she genuinely stopped with tears in her eyes and just said, "That podcast changed my life three years ago. I quit alcohol, and it changed my family's life." That's so important to me-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 13:20 Yeah

Andy Ramage 13:20 ... how powerful that is.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 13:21 That, that is... Well, it's lovely to hear, and I think that point about it changing her family's life, that's huge because when you change your relationship with alcohol, it's not just you who gets the benefits, is it?

Andy Ramage 13:37 It's everyone. It's the greatest gift you can ever give your family, your work colleagues, your friends. Like, we have to get a bit of distance from it I think. I think we're so disassociated from what alcohol is. As an average drinker, I'm always talking to the average drinker, the middle lane drinker, what does it do to us? It destroys our sleep, as I've mentioned. What does that do to us? It makes us tired. It makes us grumpy. We've got less energy.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 13:58 Mm.

Andy Ramage 13:59 You know, we're not as jovial. We might not do the things that we'd normally do with our family 'cause we can't quite be bothered 'cause we're nursing a hangover or that grumpiness of our neurochemistry being blown apart and it's trying to maintain an equilibrium, low mood, mild anxiety, and maybe we're not doing the things that spark joy.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 14:16 Mm.

Andy Ramage 14:16 And I think that has a massive consequence. And if you actually think about it as, say, a middle lane drinker, someone that drinks once a week, let's just say once a week, those few on a weekend, what that will do to your sleep, destroy it. If you've got any wearable tech now-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 14:29 Mm

Andy Ramage 14:29 ... you start to see it in your heart rate variability.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 14:31 Yeah.

Andy Ramage 14:31 You'll see it in your heart rate elevated. That doesn't last for a day. That lasts for a day or two or three.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 14:37 Mm.

Andy Ramage 14:37 Let's call it three and a half days. That's 50% of your life.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 14:41 Yeah.

Andy Ramage 14:41 50% of your life you're underperforming in every domain. That's just once a week. Imagine if you drink twice a week. 100% of the time you're underperforming across every domain. It's incredible when you think about it. That's why I think the flip side, it's like a superpower for a middle lane drinker when they remove it.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 14:58 Yeah. On your podcast, Andy, you recently released an episode celebrating the fact that you haven't drunk any alcohol for 10 years, right, which is incredible-

Andy Ramage 15:10 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 15:10 ... in this culture in which we live, the culture in which you live. And on that podcast you said, "For 10 years you have been the father and partner you've always wanted to be." What does that mean?

Andy Ramage 15:24 Yeah. For me I think my greatest achievement, and I always say, is my marriage to my lovely wife, Tara, and my two girls. You know, there was a, a period in time, not that our relationship was ever strained, I was very fortunate even whilst I was drinking, but I always felt like I wasn't as present as I should be. I didn't have the energy that I should have had-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 15:43 Mm

Andy Ramage 15:43 ... you know, as a middle-aged man. And the fact for the last 10 years that I've been consistent in my temperament, in my relationship, in my being present for my girls, always there to have that energy, I feel like I- I've done the best job that I could do. You know, I'm not perfect. Far from it. Clearly not, just ask my wife. But I've been there for them in, in, in what feels like for me the most optimal way, and I'm forever grateful for that. That's the greatest gift of this whole c- you know, experiment for me is to be there as, as a father and, and a parent to my children.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 16:14 For people who didn't hear our first conversation, Andy, I'd love you to kind of walk them through your story again because if someone's just hearing you say, "I haven't drunk for 10 years," I don't want that to put people off.

Andy Ramage 16:29 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 16:29 I don't want someone to think, "Well, hey, that guy's on a different journey to me. Like I'm, I'm still having, you know, a couple of nights out with my mates where we have some lagers. Um, I can't relate to Andy because he's not like me. He hasn't drunk for 10 years." But that's not necessarily the case, is it? Although you haven't drunk for 10 years, they should be able to relate to you because of where you were just over 10 years ago.

Andy Ramage 16:55 Yeah, exactly. So if I wind the clock back a bit, I started out as a pr- professional footballer, which I loved. Got injured very early on in my early 20s, fell into the world of broken, the guys in the pits with the bright jackets screaming-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 17:07 Yeah

Andy Ramage 17:07 ... and shouting at one another, and then fell into that lifestyle. Fast-forward 10 years, I'd achieved a certain level of success, but I was unfit, overweight, really unhealthy. I'd just discovered I had early onset heart disease. My relationships were a little bit strained in the office and at home, and I was a middle lane drinker at that stage, again, as I described earlier. Was I drinking too much? Yes, but so was everyone else on the planet. Was I drinking to excess? No. But in that space I started to get really interested in... I thought there was more. I couldn't put my finger on it. I was mid-30s. I felt like I was leaving some of my performance on the table. I couldn't quite describe it, so I went in search of that and I read a book, funnily enough, Awaken the Giant Within. I don't know if you know that book. Classic Anthony Robbins. And in that book there was two things that changed my life. One was a quote, the first quote being, "It's not events that shape our lives but our beliefs about them."

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 18:00 Yeah.

Andy Ramage 18:01 Such beautiful wisdom that goes back to the ancient stoics. The second thing in there was that he mentioned, Anthony Robbins, that he trained with this guy called John Grinder. John Grinder's the co-founder of NLP. And I was stuck at that stage in my life and I'm searching for optimal performance and I'm looking in all the wrong places and I thought, "Imagine if I could train with the guy that trained Anthony Robbins." But in my mind I thought, I'm gonna have to fly to LA. It's gonna cost hundreds of thousands of pounds. So I Googled around John Grinder, next training course. Croydon. I was like, Croydon, what's he doing in Croydon? Anyway, the greatest gift, I went and trained with him. That was as an executive coach. I had no interest in becoming an executive coach.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 18:36 Mm.

Andy Ramage 18:36 I just wanted to train with this guy. It blew my mind, the learning and the insights that I got. So I took that away and started to look at all areas of my life, again, as a middle lane drinker, but I didn't question alcohol. I tried exercise, I tried nutrition, I tried meditation, even had the odd cold shower. Nothing would work because alcohol was so sort of ingrained in who I am, and I think that's the story for so many people listening. It's the last thing we ever question. It's just sort of part of who we are, right? It was part of who I was in my relationships, in my business, in my career. So to challenge that I found really difficult, and I struggled with it at first, but I thought, I wonder if I take a break from alcohol, could that be the secret key-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 19:18 Mm

Andy Ramage 19:18 ... to all areas of elite performance? And of course it was. And to set the scene, I found it really difficult. I had my rubber arm twisted all the time, you know, by the social pressure of friends and colleagues and getting called boring and all those things that you get called.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 19:31 And, and, and how did you cope with that back then?

Andy Ramage 19:34 Well, often I wouldn't even tell the truth. I would actually drink or not drink, as the case may be, without telling anyone because I found it so difficult. For example, I'd sit there with clients and I'd have my special drinks. I found one or two pubs that had Becks Blue that would fill me a pint glass so I could pretend that I was drinking just to try and buy some time and space to actually get a period of sobriety-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 19:58 That's nuts, isn't it?

Andy Ramage 19:59 ... under my belt.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 19:59 That, that is-

Andy Ramage 19:59 It's completely nuts

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 20:00 ... a- as grown adults, it is totally nuts how we feel, and I felt it before, that social pressure to drink.

Andy Ramage 20:08 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 20:08 Or to be seen to be drinking.

Andy Ramage 20:10 It completely... It's, it's ins- when you get some distance from it-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 20:13 Oh, it is insane-

Andy Ramage 20:14 ... it's nuts

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 20:14 ... when you get some distance from it.

Andy Ramage 20:15 It's nuts.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 20:16 Do you remember the last time you had a drink?

Andy Ramage 20:19 Yeah, very clearly, because it was around this time. It's 10 years just recently. In our industry, I was a broker, we have a thing called International Petroleum Week, which was a week where everyone flies in from all over the world, brokers, traders, and we get together and it's a glorified, I can't think of a better word for it than piss up, dressed up in the name of business, and it's brutal. And it was at the end of that, it was on the Thursday, on the end of that, I was like, "I'm just over this." And I said those immortal words, "Never again." And that was the first 28-day break. I'd said never again many times before, I think like lots of people, but it was that moment of I've just had enough of this. I'm just... I, I'm over this.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 20:55 Th- this is a really interesting point for me, Andy. So on that fateful morning when you felt horrendous and you said never again, that wasn't the first time you'd said never again. So had you already been trying to reset your relationship with alcohol?

Andy Ramage 21:12 Yes. Over probably about a two or three-year period.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 21:15 Okay. So already two or three years you were already starting to question things and have, what, a few weeks without, then you'd go back. Is that, is that just sort of... Because I think this is really important because it's, it's quite hard, I think, for a lot of people. Of course, you mentioned, uh, someone who you got a text from yesterday who heard our first podcast and overnight stopped and hasn't drunk since. But for a lot of people, they're gonna hear the information and it might just get them thinking. They may not initially go, "Right, that's it." Do you know what I mean? So I think it'll be interesting to, for them to understand how you got from initially having the question in your mind to actually then going and becoming alcohol-free for good.

Andy Ramage 21:57 And what's really interesting about this, James Prochaska, who has the stages of change-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 22:01 Yeah

Andy Ramage 22:01 ... model, which we, I think we both love, I saw some great research from him that suggests a lot of the time you have a, a, a, there's different stages. One is pre-contemplation, when you're unaware of the negative impacts of alcohol on, you know, your life, for example, as a middle lane drinker. And then you step into contemplation when you become aware.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 22:19 Mm.

Andy Ramage 22:19 And that's what this podcast does brilliantly. You know, Freud spoke about this, the role of psychoanalysis is to make the unconscious conscious, and I think that's what we're doing through this conversation.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 22:28 Mm-hmm.

Andy Ramage 22:28 So I became aware that, oh, maybe alcohol is holding me back in all these different domains, but the research backs this up. I reckon it took me two years before I actually made that change.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 22:38 Mm.

Andy Ramage 22:38 And Prochaska shows that in his research. So lots of people step from being unconscious by pre-contemplation into contemplation by thinking, listening to a podcast such as this, but it might take about two years before you actually make that change, and that was in my story. I trained with John Greender, so I started to understand a bit more how my brain worked. I went back to university, having left school at 16 to be a footballer, to do a degree and a Masters degree specifically because I wanted to understand how my brain works.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 23:05 Mm.

Andy Ramage 23:05 So I was doing a lot of work in the background to understand the inner workings of my own mind to try and make this behavioral change because it's so, it was so difficult for me back then in amongst that social pressure-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 23:16 Yeah

Andy Ramage 23:16 ... and that identity that I'd formed as a drinker. It's how my w- met my wife. It's how I did business. You know, it's how I thought I had fun. To take that away was like, I don't know if I'm gonna come out the other side of this. My biggest fear, and this is the truth, how the hell am I gonna dance at weddings?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 23:32 [laughs]

Andy Ramage 23:32 That's impossible, right? Middle-aged ginger bloke dancing at weddings without alcohol. How's that gonna happen? You know, I had all those cultural worries. Were my friends gonna disown me? My mates not think I'm funny anymore? My kids would wonder where, like, their dad's gone. My wife run off, you know, with someone that drinks. And, you know, out the other side of that is that fear, and I think humans are so scared of change. You know, there's that W.H. Auden quote that I always come back to, "We would rather die in our dread than change." And I think it's so true, isn't it? We run up against something like a break from alcohol as a middle lane drinker and just tie ourself in knots, and we're so scared to make that change that we never do.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 24:11 Over these past 10 years, have you ever been in situations where you have been tempted? Christmas, get together with your old buddies who you used to drink with. You know, w- w- uh, it could be any scenario, but was there any time when you were in a social setting when you thought- You know what? May- maybe just a, a cheeky glass of wine or a cheeky beer would be okay or, or not

Andy Ramage 24:33 Not really in a social setting, but funnily enough, there was a, a moment, it was about a year and a half in, and bearing in mind we'd started the One Year No Beer at that stage, and the, the other co-founder, a guy called Ruari, I'd inspired him about six months into my journey. He went alcohol-free and said he was going to do a year. So 18 months into my journey, he decided he was going to have a drink again and, and drink in a different format. It transformed his relationship with alcohol. And I remember really strangely, it just caught me from unawares. It was like, well, if Ruari's drinking, I haven't got a problem with alcohol. I was a middle lane drinker. I can have a drink. Who says I can't have a drink? Bearing in mind we've started this whole organization called One Year No Beer, but I tied myself up in knots what felt like for hours, and I was pacing up and down my kitchen saying to myself, well, if he can have a drink, I can have a drink. You know, one of these weird moments. And my wife was out at the time, Tara, and I thought to myself, oh, when she comes back, right? Bearing in mind she's lost her drinking partner in my, you know, my mind for the last 18 months. I'm telling myself she's probably gonna be thrilled when I announce the news that, Tara, I'm thinking of maybe having a drink again. And Tara walks in the door and I tell her what I've been thinking, and she just looked at me dead straight and went, "Why the hell would you do that? Why the hell would you go back to the tiredness, the drudgery, the low mood, the lack of performance? Why would you do that?" And it was a really beautiful moment because it just snapped me out of it, and I've never, ever considered it ever since.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 25:56 This is basically what you want people to experience, isn't it? You want people to experience what their life could be when alcohol is not in it. You seem to have this real upbeat energy, positivity. You want to motivate people. I mean, you're always, you know, sharing these positive videos on Instagram. You want to get people going because you've seen the change in yourself, and I really get that strong feeling that you want to help other people experience exactly what you've experienced, don't you?

Andy Ramage 26:26 Yeah, and it's, for me, it's 70% of the adult population. Seven in 10 adults, when you think about it, are middle lane drinking, average drinking, and I genuinely believe most people are leaving 10%, 20%, 30%, maybe 50% of their best self, whatever that looks like for them, on the table because of this average relationship with alcohol. Those one or two drinks in the week, those two or three more at the weekend. And I think the best way to experience what I'm talking about and always banging on about is to come on the fun side of the island for a little while and just experience it yourself. Then you don't need me to tell you because you'll feel it better sleep. You know, you'll be less grumpy. You might find that some of those health issues clear up, such as mild anxiety like it did for me. Not that it's a cure all for all of that. Clearly, low mood might evaporate. Your skin might start to glow.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 27:15 Mm.

Andy Ramage 27:15 You might have more time. You might f- feel more peaceful. You might have more energy to play with the kids. You might be better at your job. You might meet those sales targets that you haven't met before. What a gift that would be. Imagine if some of those benefits are waiting for you.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 27:30 Yeah. So let's imagine, Andy, there's somebody listening right now who does drink alcohol, thinks they're okay, is probably in that middle lane drinking category. They're like, you know, my life's okay. You know, I perform well at my job. I've got a good relationship with my partner. You know, I see my kids and play with them at weekends. Why is it, Andy, that you think I should give it a go because I enjoy drinking wine at the weekends and I don't think it's having a negative impact on my life? What would you say to that person?

Andy Ramage 28:03 I think it's back to that pre-contemplating... contemplation. I think this conversation's great. Even if it starts to move you from unawareness to awareness, and maybe you'll start to notice that actually, over time, those couple of drinks does make you a bit groggy.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 28:17 So you mean that person might think that they're thriving-

Andy Ramage 28:21 Yep

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 28:21 ... but are you saying that, yeah, you think you're thriving and maybe you are thriving, but perhaps you could thrive a little bit more when you take alcohol out? Is that your message for them?

Andy Ramage 28:32 Yeah, in many ways, and that might be 10% that you've left on the table or 20%, but for lots of people, your new normal becomes... For example, lots of people will be listening to this podcast thinking they're operating at 100% in terms of their health-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 28:45 Mm

Andy Ramage 28:45 ... their vi- vibrancy, their career, but they might be falling short of what that peak is-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 28:49 Yeah

Andy Ramage 28:49 ... by 10, 20, 30, 40, 50%. You just don't know.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 28:52 Yeah.

Andy Ramage 28:53 Because it becomes your new normal. That's... And what happened for me, I remember it, right? This is how ridiculous it is. I remember being mid-thirties, overweight, unhappy, unfulfilled, career had plateaued, and I remember this almost epiphany moment of thinking, oh, I know what it is. It's middle age. Ah, here I am. This is middle age. My destiny is to feel a bit rubbish for the rest of my life. What a load of nonsense. I'm almost 50 now. You know, 10 years at this, fitter, faster, healthier than I've ever been in my life. You know, from when I was playing professional sport. And I think that's the message to get out to people. I think we get so stuck. We believe our new normal is very often so far short of what we're capable of, and it's alcohol. It's always been alcohol. It's the thing that trips you up in terms of your consistency in the way that you exercise. It is. It's the number one thing. It's the thing that blows up our nutritional strategy. It's the thing that destroys our sleep. It's the thing that destroys our mental wellbeing, and we're all doing it. We're all doing it-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 29:47 Yeah

Andy Ramage 29:47 ... on such a massive scale. So imagine if people remove it, the gifts you get. It's like a superpower. That's the best way to describe it.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 29:53 Yeah. I've seen something similar with food intake with many of my patients in the past, where if you are eating the kind of standard Western diet, which unfortunately these days for a variety of reasons is full of highly processed foods, full of loads of sugar and all kinds of additives, and I get it, right? I understand that that's the easiest thing to eat for many people. I've also found that if I can encourage, persuade, inspire a patient to try two or three weeks with just whole foods within their budget, within their preferences, whatever it might be- I also find that two, three weeks in, people have no idea how good they could feel

Andy Ramage 30:41 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 30:42 They accept how they are today as all that there is. They don't realize that actually a few tweaks, you know, I'm mentioning with food, you're mentioning with alcohol, you may be surprised just how great you can feel or how much better you can feel when you start to make these changes. Just taking a quick break to give a shout-out to Vivobarefoot shoes. Now, I've been a huge fan of Vivobarefoot for over 10 years now, well before they started supporting my podcast. They are the only shoes that I wear, and they really have had a huge impact on my own life and the lives of many of my patients. You see, when people start wearing minimalist shoes like Vivos, you can see improvements in things like back pain, hip pain, knee pain, foot pain. Even things like plantar fasciitis can often get better. And scientific research shows us that just wearing Vivos for about four months or so improves the strength in your feet by over 60%, which is absolutely incredible. One thing people don't realize about these shoes is just how flexible they are, which allows your feet to do what your feet naturally want to do rather than the shoe dictating your foot's movement. Vivobarefoot are giving my audience a 15% off one-time code when you make your first order, and they make it really easy for you to give them a try. They give a 100-day trial for new customers, so if you don't like them, you just send them back for a full refund. I'm a huge fan. I really hope you take advantage of this offer. To get your 15% off code, all you need to do is go to vivobarefoot.com/livemore or click on the link in the description box below.

Andy Ramage 32:31 Yeah, and I think you've got to compound it over the rest of l- your life

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 32:34 Yeah

Andy Ramage 32:34 You know, the difference between being optimal at 30, 40, 50, 60 versus being suboptimal, and your new normal being 50% of your health and vibrancy and vitality. That is a life-changing difference, that gap between those two things. Because as I said, most people start drinking in their teens and never stop.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 32:51 Mm-hmm.

Andy Ramage 32:51 So to remove it, just to get a glimpse of exactly as you described, what it might feel like, what it might look like to sleep really well, and also discovering that you can socialize and have fun and do all those incredible things without alcohol. And of course, it also helps your nutrition because you're much more likely to be-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 33:08 Yeah

Andy Ramage 33:09 ... optimal in your nutrition. You're much more likely to move your body more. The compounding effect is dramatic for so many middle lane drinkers.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 33:16 With your work, Andy, you've helped so many people change their relationship with alcohol. I'm interested as to where the obstacles are for people. So I imagine that some people will say, "I get really nervous in groups. I struggle to talk to other people. When I have a drink, those inhibitions go, and I can connect, I can talk, I can make conversation with other people." So alcohol is serving a role for them-

Andy Ramage 33:46 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 33:46 ... in their life at that moment. So perhaps when they remove the alcohol, they start to get really shy, and they struggle to make friends and talk to other people. Is that something that has come up with the people or some of the people you've coached, and how do you advise them to sort of get through that?

Andy Ramage 34:08 There's a couple of things about that. That social anxiety. Like, I'm quite introverted by nature. A lot of people don't think that, but I actually am. So I think I would drink to overcome that introversion. It, it made me more extrovert, as it were. But also I think we have to realize a lot of the time because we start drinking so early, which is terrible really when you think-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 34:26 Mm. Yeah

Andy Ramage 34:26 ... I started drinking when I was 13. My lovely, you know, young brain. I wanted to meet girls. My emotional pain was that I'm awkward. I don't know how to talk to girls. You know, if you look at it, a habitual routine, that was the pain, the trigger. The routine, I drunk alcohol. The reward, I could talk to girls. I was socially at ease. Imagine how powerful that was to my young brain. My brain just lit up and went, "Whatever you just did there, do that again." Every time you feel that emotional-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 34:52 Mm

Andy Ramage 34:52 ... angst, as it were, do that again. And I think what happens for lots of adults, we bury that habitual routine into our subconscious, and then we keep playing it forever. So we say to ourselves, "Oh, I need alcohol to socialize." But I was still telling myself that when I was in my mid-30s. That just wasn't true anymore. Um, and then what I started to realize when I removed it, yes, I was a bit socially anxious, but what I'd never done in most of my adult life is just sat with that. I'll give you a good example. Matt Pink is a great mate of mine. He had a, the No Booze Cruise, right? So it's a cruise up and down the Thames that's alcohol-free. Now, for an introvert, on a boat, it was absolutely packed. It was an incredible, uh, event. 250 people. I can't escape. There's no alcohol, and I got that sense of social anxiety again, and this was quite recently. And I was like, "Oh, well, I've got no option now. I'm on this boat. I can't drink." And clearly I'm... You know, at that stage, I'm, like, eight years alcohol-free. So I just had to sit with it, and what I found, almost as if by magic, after 15 minutes, it just went away. It went away. Because I think your primitive brain settles down and says, "It's safe. It's okay." So what I've realized is all those years I'd been drinking to overcome something that had I just waited for 15 minutes would've gone anyway, and I think there's an element of that when it comes to social anxiety. You've got to retrain yourself. You know, look at all these people that socialize without alcohol.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 36:09 Yeah.

Andy Ramage 36:09 They've just had to retrain themselves to socialize without taking this drug effectively that is alcohol. So I think there's some relearning in there. And I think also you have to get comfortable with being your authentic self. Like, I'm not an extrovert. I was never an extrovert. Alcohol made me an extrovert. I'm much more introverted, so now I had to get comfortable showing up and socializing as me.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 36:31 Yeah, that's such a good point, isn't it? Because one thing I've, I've realized over the last few years, and I, I... You see this online all the time- Where people change who they are in order to get validation. And it's a very, very dangerous trap to fall into because once you start changing who you are and you get celebrated for that different version of yourself, you're incentivized to keep doing that because we all like to be celebrated by others and have that connection with others. But a lot of the time we're doing it with someone who isn't really who we want to be. And so yeah, you know, if you do go alcohol-free and you show up as who you really want to be, it may also mean that some of those friends or some of those acquaintances that you thought were working for you, you may also find that they don't work so well when you're showing up as your true self.

Andy Ramage 37:35 Absolutely. And there's a real power when you meet someone that's showing up and shining through their authentic energy.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 37:42 Yeah.

Andy Ramage 37:42 There's a power in that, that, that is attractive. You can sense it. You pick up on it.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 37:46 Totally.

Andy Ramage 37:46 You know, and I found that when I would walk into a room and not drink and got really comfort- confident with it, people would still gravitate towards you. They could feel that there was a different strength going on. Whereas before I felt I was weak under the influence of alcohol. Even as a middle lane drinker, it weakened me as a person. It made me into someone that I wasn't. It was a bit of a fake persona that it would create. Therefore, showing up and shining full power, whether it be socially, whether it be in your career, whether it be in your family, there's something inherently-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 38:15 Mm-hmm

Andy Ramage 38:15 ... attractive about that, and I think people miss out on that. They're trying to be someone that they're not, when actually their real power sits with themself, their authentic self. And I think we're always trying to be this other person or create this character when really what people are most attracted to in terms of friendship, in terms of connection, in terms of business is you.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 38:32 Yeah.

Andy Ramage 38:32 The authentic you that's underneath it all.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 38:36 Do you think it's possible for someone to have a healthy relationship with alcohol?

Andy Ramage 38:40 In my opinion, why bother? I genuinely... That is my start.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 38:43 Okay.

Andy Ramage 38:43 Like, and, and I know everyone's got a different opinion on this, and of course people can, but for me, it's all about ambivalence in the brain. I think if you've got any relationship with alcohol, you're telling yourself at some level that there's benefits to it for you. And I think all that does, it means that you need willpower in your life to resist that one that really you want to have two, three or four. And for me, my approach is always the same. Take a break. Live that learned experience of all the benefits that you gain, and then build such a compelling future. Why would I drink? Like, why would I drink? Why would I blow up my sleep, my neurochemistry? I don't want low mood. I don't want to put freestone and weight back on. I've got too much going on in terms-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 39:23 Yeah

Andy Ramage 39:23 ... of the entrepreneurial things that I'm doing, in terms of my fitness, in terms of my health, in terms of my relationship. Like, why would I have that in my life at any shape or form?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 39:31 Yeah.

Andy Ramage 39:31 That's just my opinion. Equally, I believe people can drink on occasion should they wish. We call it mostly dry. But I think you've got to get to that stage where almost you don't need it. You are in total control. It's your choice to-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 39:43 Yeah

Andy Ramage 39:43 ... on occasion, have a drink. If you are doing the moderation thing, which I don't like, which is basically suggesting, I'd quite like to drink three drinks, but I'm going to use willpower to drink one, you're doomed because obviously at some point we forget it is a drug, right? It's going to shut down your prefrontal cortex after about one or two drinks. So your emotional machinery is offline.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 40:04 Yeah.

Andy Ramage 40:04 And your regulation, your behavior regulation is offline. So the one always turns into two, which occasionally turns into five and all of a sudden your best laid moderation plans-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 40:12 Yeah

Andy Ramage 40:12 ... are out the window and then you're not moderating. So I don't believe in moderation because I don't think that works for people. I understand that some people can remove it to such an extent on occasion for whatever reason they can drink.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 40:22 Yeah.

Andy Ramage 40:23 I just think why bother?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 40:25 I appreciate your perspective. I mean, you're sharing your honest view on that based upon your own experience-

Andy Ramage 40:29 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 40:29 ... of what you've helped. What, thousands? Tens of thousands of people-

Andy Ramage 40:33 Hundreds of thousands. Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 40:33 ... do? Maybe hundreds of thousands. It's quite incredible to see the impact you've had, Andy, over the past few years. I've been thinking about this alcohol-free movement over the last couple of years quite deeply, and to be completely transparent, I haven't had an alcoholic drink... I, I actually can't tell you the exact date. It was in the summer, a few summers ago. So I don't think I'd drunk for a while, and we were staying with some friends, and we were having, um, you know, a meal on this outdoor table in the evening, and you could see the sea, and the sun was coming down. It was a gorgeous setting, and one of my friends offered me a glass of red wine, and she said, "Oh, this is really nice, Rangan, you're gonna like it. It's from a local whatever, and it's organic." And, you know, and I was, I was kind of not really wanting it, but for whatever reason, a glass ended up in front of me, and I think I felt a bit of social obligation. I think there was a bit of, "Go on, you know, it's really nice. You'll enjoy it," whatever. And I do remember, I think having one sip, maybe two sips, and I just remember thinking, I don't like how I'm feeling already. I, I was starting to get that wooziness. I thought, I don't like it. And I've realized that actually I love my life these days. I don't want to be numb to my life. I actually enjoy my sober experience of life. And to be really clear, I never had a problem with drinking. Um, I didn't really drink that much, but I realized I don't actually want to drink, so I stopped drinking. And again, this could only have been four or five years ago. I remember awkwardly trying to go somewhere with a glass and pour it down the sink. And, and I, I think afterwards I thought, Rangan, you're a 40-year-old man and you're still trying to hide this.

Andy Ramage 42:29 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 42:29 You're... It was ridiculous, right?

Andy Ramage 42:31 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 42:31 I, I think that's the last time I drank. So it's either four years ago or five years ago. I can't quite remember. It's something like that. So again, I have no moral problem if someone chooses to drink.

Andy Ramage 42:41 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 42:41 I'm just saying my own experience has been having drunk since university, um, where you become accustomed to drinking if you don't already drink, which I didn't. I haven't drunken about four or five years now, and I prefer my life without any alcohol in it. But I do reflect on this alcohol-free movement, Andy, and I think, well, if we look at the blue zones, these are people who are seemingly able to enjoy, you know, a glass of wine maybe three or four evenings a week, maybe every evening, maybe at 4:00 or 5:00 PM in company, and use it as something that is seemingly enhancing their life. And from what we can tell, they're doing pretty well from a health perspective and a happiness perspective. So I always think, okay, I'm enjoying not having alcohol, but there do appear to be people who can enjoy it as part of their life without necessarily having adverse consequences, and my conclusion on that at the moment, or my, my current viewpoint on that is these blue zones, they have quite relaxed, low-stress lives, so the small bit of alcohol they're using as a way of enhancing bonding or... That's my perception of it. Whereas I think here in the West, life is so busy and stressful that I think we're using alcohol to numb stress, to numb discomfort. So I think our relationship with it is very different because I think if we're gonna have this conversation about alcohol, we also have to be able to explain why there are communities around the world who are seemingly thriving whilst drinking. So I wonder what your perspective is on any of that.

Andy Ramage 44:26 Yeah, I think it's so true. I think our relationship with alcohol is really unhealthy in many ways, and I think that is a very much a Western thing, isn't it? We are drinking to relieve stress as opposed to-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 44:38 Yeah

Andy Ramage 44:38 ... enhance social bonding.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 44:40 And I think it's very different.

Andy Ramage 44:41 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 44:42 Which is why I think so many of us are... Again, I was gonna put, put to you today, you know, is it a reflection of our Western culture where we have these extremes where people are wrecking their whole Saturday and their whole Sunday and because they've drunk so much the night before, which is quite a British thing. Uh, well, there's many other countries as well, to be fair.

Andy Ramage 45:04 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 45:04 But it's definitely a very British thing, and so the natural way of dealing with that is to go completely alcohol-free.

Andy Ramage 45:10 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 45:11 Do you know what I mean? I'm just kind of playing devil's advocate with this 'cause I do think there are communities out there who do seem to drink and it not have those same adverse consequences.

Andy Ramage 45:20 Totally agree, and I'm not anti-alcohol as such, but I'm really pro-awareness.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 45:25 Yeah, yeah.

Andy Ramage 45:25 I just want people to be aware. That's what I'm looking for. To be aware, 'cause it might be for them actually their relationship with it is not healthy, and it's not actually-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 45:32 Yeah

Andy Ramage 45:32 ... in that nice setting that's enhancing social bonds. I would argue for most of us it's not. And I think even if you think about from an evolutionary perspective, I think we're drawn towards intoxication. I think we always have been.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 45:43 Mm-hmm.

Andy Ramage 45:43 From mushrooms to plants. But if we think about it, in most of our evolution, it would've been a yearly event due to a harvest or a harvest festival.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 45:52 Hmm.

Andy Ramage 45:52 Whereas now we are smashed by advertising constantly. It's available twenty-four seven. You know, we're portrayed that you need to drink to have fun, be cool, be sexy, and I think in many ways it's spoiled something that could have been used in a different way-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 46:05 Yeah

Andy Ramage 46:06 ... to enhance social bonds, and now it's become this problematic thing because on average, our world is awash with it. And we're not using it in a way to enhance social bonds. We're just using it 'cause it's a Thursday, and I'm a bit stressed. We're using it plonked in front of the TV on a Tuesday night watching a box set. It's not even a box set, is it Netflix? But do you know what I mean? It's just everywhere.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 46:25 It's mindless.

Andy Ramage 46:26 It's mindless. We're not using... I think we'd be much healthier if we treated it like all the other drugs and was like, "We've got a festival coming up. Do we choose X, Y, and Z drug?" We've got the alcohol drug.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 46:36 Yeah.

Andy Ramage 46:36 And knowing what the consequences are. Whereas we treat it like a soda or a fizzy water. It's just everywhere, and that's what I'm really trying to portray is just wake a few people up. Like I needed to be woken up just to go, oh, I wonder. I wonder is actually alcohol the thing that's behind, you know, my lack of performance in certain areas, or my grumpiness, or my tiredness, or my inconsistency, and the reason I'm telling myself and beating myself up 'cause I don't have the willpower. Very often you'll find that actually it's that average relationship with alcohol that sits behind all of those things.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 47:08 You have been involved with coaching people for years for many things, but specifically around alcohol, changing our relationship with alcohol. Have you noticed any differences? I, I get everyone's an individual, but broadly speaking, have there been differences between men and women?

Andy Ramage 47:28 I think especially on the online space, it's predominantly female.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 47:32 Is it?

Andy Ramage 47:33 Yeah. Always has been. From all the organizations that I've run, most of those groups are predominantly female. I think, again, we're generalizing here. I think females are much more comfortable about coming out and sharing their emotions and talking about these things. Men, much less so, you know? And I really think there's a need for more specific organizations, initiatives for men around alcohol. Funnily enough, the AA, and that's obviously not my position. I'm very much prevention. The AA might be something in very much looks like addiction. It's-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 48:02 So for people who don't know, we're talking about Alcoholics Anonymous.

Andy Ramage 48:05 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 48:06 And, and you're saying that's for-

Andy Ramage 48:07 Predominantly, yeah. So that's for those who suffer dependency, identify as alcoholic. That's very much in that bracket.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 48:14 You're not, you're not necessarily speaking to them, are you?

Andy Ramage 48:16 No.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 48:16 You're, you're not trying to speak to them.

Andy Ramage 48:18 I'm in the middle lane, but I'm just g- I'm just giving you an example that the AA is predominantly male.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 48:23 Hmm.

Andy Ramage 48:23 Whereas actually what I see this new movement of alcohol-free is predominantly female, which is really interesting for me. And of course, men just as much as women are in that middle lane, and I think men just as much as women are suffering all of those performance, you know, negatives from their middle lane relationship with alcohol, but they're not coming forward as quickly, or they do it, I think, much more on their own. So they're not as vocal. You don't see them as visually. But they're being inspired, and I know they're being inspired by these type of conversations.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 48:48 Yeah.

Andy Ramage 48:48 I think that's why podcasts are, are fantastic for men because they might not join the groups, they might not show up and put their hand up, but they're listening. Right now they're listening to this.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 48:57 Yeah.

Andy Ramage 48:57 And there'll be a lot of men listening to this thinking, "Oh, I wonder. Actually, I'm in my mid-30s or 40s. I wanna be optimal in the rest of my life. I wanna peak perform in my career and in my relationships. Maybe this ginger bloke's got something to say that might be interesting for me."

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 49:10 It's, it's kind of interesting, isn't it? It's, it's about asking ourselves the question, why are we drinking in the first place? I think a lot of us don't know that. Genuinely, I didn't really know that. You just sort of fall into it, and then you assume that's what you do. It's, it's like going higher up the chain, going to first principle thinking, going, "Okay. Well, wait a minute. I currently drink, but who said I have to drink? Like, what might my life look like if I don't drink?" And again, people can make their own decisions. It's up to individuals what they wanna do with their life, how they wanna spend it. That's always been my view. I think that's your view as well. One of the things I always like about your approach, it's very similar to how I've always dealt with patients, which is to raise awareness.

Andy Ramage 49:58 Hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 49:58 You know, I'm not here to tell you what to do. I just wanna... I want to help you experience something whereby you might go, "Oh, actually, I, I kind of prefer feeling like this. I prefer this way to that way." Do you know what I mean?

Andy Ramage 50:11 Yeah. And I think it's... We become the stories that we tell. Back to that great quote, it's not the events that shape our life, it's our beliefs about them.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 50:18 Mm-hmm.

Andy Ramage 50:18 All the coaching I always do is at the level of beliefs. I'm trying to help people unpick their beliefs. For example, with alcohol, lots of people have a belief that to not drink is boring. That's a cultural belief that a lot of people have, so they tell themselves that story, and we become that story. So a lot of the work that I'll do, I'll sit someone down if I'm coaching them or are training our coaches, and we'll just try and unpick some of those beliefs. I just ask questions. For example, is it true that not drinking is boring? So I'll get people to write two lists, what's boring and what's fun. So on my boring list is repeating myself, saying things that I might regret. You know, waking up the next day feeling awful, tired, groggy, snapping at the kids, not having the energy to do the things that spark joy. Putting on the free stone in weight, being unfit, unhealthy. All of those things are boring. To me, that's my view. All of that's boring. And all of that, I think, is facilitated by alcohol. What's on my fun list? Being energized and upbeat and having my mental clarity, being fit, faster, healthier, doing the things that I love. Socializing a different way, starting entrepreneurial activities, coaching people, training coaches. They're the things, having conversations like this, that are fun for me.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 51:21 Yeah.

Andy Ramage 51:21 So my point being, I think a lot of the time is we tell ourself these stories that we maybe collect along the way, maybe from our youth in terms of we need alcohol to drink, to have fun or socialize, and we keep them, uh, until we become aware of them. And I think that's what these conversations do so well. They wake people up to think, "Oh, actually, I haven't even thought about that. What is boring-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 51:41 Yeah

Andy Ramage 51:41 ... and what is fun for me?" And when you run that list, most of the time people will find on the boring list is the influence of alcohol or the aftereffects of alcohol. It's the very opposite to what they believe.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 51:52 Now, Andy, a lot of people have got insecurities. They're deeply, deeply insecure. I have been for much of my life. So again, not a judgment, just a observation. In certain cultures, there is such a social pressure to drink that you've gotta be pretty strong-willed to go up against that and actually be confident that actually you're not gonna drink even if people around you are. It's something I've come up against. The reason I find it so frankly easy these days is because I have done a lot of work on myself. That's a very broad term. I've shared some of that on this podcast in the past, so I won't reiterate it now. But I feel very secure in who I am today. I know who I am, I know my values, I know what I stand for, so it's very easy for me to not drink and not be swayed anymore by social pressure. In your experience of coaching people, how much of a factor is this internal insecurity? How do you help them manage the social pressure that they often face when they go down this path?

Andy Ramage 53:04 It's a brilliant question because I think it's a bit of a chicken and egg.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 53:08 So do I.

Andy Ramage 53:08 Because actually by removing alcohol, I see these transformations. It was the same for me mentally and physically. I think people have to overcome something that they feel is terribly difficult, that may be impossible, that they face all that social pressure. And in doing so, in many ways, plus they get their mental clarity back 'cause they're not blowing up their neurochemistry. So that momentum and that courage builds on one another, and I think that's why I see dramatic transformations in people's confidence. The biggest thing that I see as a coach is lack of confidence. That same sort of thing-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 53:41 Hmm

Andy Ramage 53:41 ... insecurity. The quickest thing that comes back when people remove alcohol is that confidence again. So I think it's a bit of chicken and egg. I think a lot of people do suffer from those insecurities, but I think our middle lane drinking feeds that beast. It makes us more insecure. It takes away our power. I really believe that. I worked with a guy just recently, and he described it like this. If it was a battery pack on his back, he was down at 1%. He was still operating in the world and doing all those things, but he'd lost all his power due to that middle lane drinking. Of course, he removes alcohol for a period of time, has to deal with those social events, that social pressure. It's hard, but we grow stronger through doing hard things-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 54:20 Yeah

Andy Ramage 54:20 ... don't we? So through that process, we regain confidence. That's why I continually see it, and I've seen it up close to hundreds of thousands of people. People take a break from alcohol, transform their career. They take a break from alcohol, transform their relationship, transform their body, transform their mind. They regrow their confidence back up as their authentic self.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 54:38 Yeah.

Andy Ramage 54:38 So for someone that's feeling insecure right now, the greatest thing you can ever do, in my opinion, if you're a middle lane drinker, is remove alcohol. And you have to go two steps back to go 10 forward.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 54:48 Yeah.

Andy Ramage 54:48 It might feel like you've lost that cloak, that persona, that, that guard that you used to put up, and appreciate that you have to go two steps back to go 10 steps forward, but then you regrow your power. Imagine what it feels like-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 54:58 Yeah

Andy Ramage 54:58 ... to go out that first time and socialize. When you wake up the next day, you feel like a hero.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 55:04 There's a similarity there between what you've just said and some of the things you've said so far in this conversation, and trauma So in childhood, if for whatever reason we don't feel unconditional love, we develop certain adaptations to help us, to help us survive childhood because as kids we need the support of our caregivers. Usually our parents, but could be anyone. We need that, so we need to fit in, right? We have to choose attachment even if it means we're sacrificing authenticity. And the problem often is in adulthood that we don't realize we're no longer kids, that we still have those same patterns that, yeah, served us really well as kids, but perhaps are not serving us well as adults. And it's when we were talking about social anxiety before, Andy, you mentioned, yeah, you, you felt you needed alcohol when you were 13 to help you talk to girls. Now let's assume you were right. Let's assume that that did help you talk to girls. Okay, so you used it as a... Okay, you were a child, but let's say as a 13-year-old you used this drug, and that drug lowered your inhibitions, so you then were able to talk to the opposite sex. And by doing that regularly, you built up your skill in how to talk to the opposite sex. So you now actually know how to do it. You've done it several times. You're not scared of doing it. You know that actually, oh, you know, th- there's no issue here. I can talk to them just as easy I c- as I can talk to a guy, for example. But you keep the story running that you need the alcohol to do that without realizing, wait a minute, you've already built up the skill. Do you still need alcohol to talk to a girl at 53? Do you know what I mean?

Andy Ramage 57:01 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 57:01 When you look at it like that, it's like, well, you've just convinced yourself of a story that was true when you were 13, but ain't true anymore.

Andy Ramage 57:09 And this is, you've absolutely nailed it. This is what I'm getting at. Carl Jung, the great Swiss philosopher/psychiatrist said, "What of the morning was true, by the evening has become a lie." And I think that's really indicative of a lot of our relationships in the middle lane with alcohol. It was true for us at some point in our teens and our 20s that actually it was mainly upside, right? We didn't suffer those knock-on consequences in such a way. We build those habitual pathways. I drink, it helps me talk to girls, and then we just keep replaying that, and then we wake up one day in our 40s and we're unfulfilled and unmotivated and we've put on weight and we're inconsistent, all those things driven by this dragon from the past which we're chasing, which is to talk to girls. But now we're happily married and don't need to do that anymore. Like, what are we doing? That's why I think there needs to be that lovely awakening of, oh, actually, why am I doing this? Why am I using this in the way that I used to use it? Maybe there's a different way to look at this.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 58:02 Mm.

Andy Ramage 58:02 And I think that's why people get these incredible transformations because they realize, oh, I don't need it in the way that it once served me back then or years ago-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 58:11 Yeah

Andy Ramage 58:11 ... or decades ago.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 58:15 Let's say there's someone, Andy, who's listening to this and they're like, "Okay. All right, I'm hearing you guys. I reckon that maybe I could experiment with my relationship with alcohol. Okay, let's see if what they're saying, let's see if what Andy's saying holds true for me." You know, they're drinking twice a week, maybe a couple of glasses of wine or whatever it might be. If they want to start on this alcohol-free journey, and perhaps they've never had a period of time without alcohol, as is the case with many, many people since they were 18 or 16 or whatever it might be, how do you encourage people to start?

Andy Ramage 58:58 People have to be ready to change as well. I think this is really important, and that's great if someone's listening to this and they're inspired. We need to put a quick caveat in here. I'm talking to the middle lane, so this is the average drinker. If you're someone that might identify as alcoholic or you're worried that you might be dependent on alcohol, if you do decide to take a break, you need to seek professional medical advice.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 59:19 Yeah. Okay.

Andy Ramage 59:19 Um, but let's just say someone wants to take a break, which is great. I think the place to start... I've got a tool, a little technique. Should we just walk... I'll just walk through it really quickly.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 59:26 Yeah, yeah. Please do.

Andy Ramage 59:26 I think it's great. For anyone listening, I think this is really beneficial 'cause it helps you see your relationship with alcohol on a page. So I train all our coaches in this. I call it the ambivalence seesaw. So you'd almost draw a line and a triangle underneath it, like a little, a kid's seesaw, if you can imagine. And what I'd get everyone to do, on the right-hand side of the seesaw, write down your perceived benefits for drinking alcohol right now. Not in the past, not in the future, right now. And what you tend to find is, it's quite a short list. It'll probably say something like, "Helps me socialize, helps me relax." It's not an exhaustive list.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 59:59 Catch up with my mates.

Andy Ramage 1:00:00 Yeah. It's, it's normally quite small for the individual. And then on the left-hand side, I'd say write down all the consequences that you're currently experiencing in your relationship with alcohol. As a middle lane drinker, it might be tiredness, it might be grogginess, to more extreme, bit of anxiety, bit of low mood. You know, not performing as well as I'd like to in my career. Grumpy, snapping at the kids. Not as consistent in my exercise, not as consistent in my nutrition.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:00:23 Mm.

Andy Ramage 1:00:23 It's quite a big list. So instantly you're starting to get a visual representation. On top of that, I'd put a line and say, what are all the benefits you think you might gain from being alcohol-free? And if you haven't had that experience, you've heard me bang on about all the benefits you might get. More time, more energy, better skin, better health, more momentum. So visually you start to see this big list on the left starts to dwarf some of these perceived upsides on the right.

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Andy Ramage 1:01:26 And then what I'd like to do, and I get people to do, I challenge the truth in those perceived upsides on the right, i.e. alcohol helps me have fun, or al- alcohol helps me relax, and we start to unpick that. And like we've been saying all along, what might have been true in your younger years might not be true now. Does it really help you relax? Like, if you take the bigger picture-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:01:45 Hmm

Andy Ramage 1:01:45 ... into play. Yes, it gives the chemical illusion of relaxation after those couple of drinks, but then what happens? If you were to stop drinking-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:01:51 Hmm

Andy Ramage 1:01:52 ... you're more relaxed or less relaxed? What about the next day? More relaxed or less relaxed when you're suffering from maybe anxiety? So you start to unpick that belief.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:02:00 Hmm.

Andy Ramage 1:02:00 So you've got your relationship with alcohol on a page. You're starting to unpick some of those beliefs, and then you start to crowd them out. This is like retraining your brain. What other ways can you achieve the same reward-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:02:11 Hmm

Andy Ramage 1:02:11 ... of relaxation? What other ways can you chain... achieve the same reward of socializing with my mates? And you start to put all other ways in there, and it might be take a bath, it might be go for a run, it might be go for a hike. So all of a sudden, really quickly, and we've just gone through that in record time, you start to see your whole relationship with alcohol on the page. It's really visual because you see that those little perceived upsides are causing all those consequences. You're missing out on all those incredible benefits, and you're really clear about what it is that you need to do, the rewards that you seek to overcome them.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:02:39 Yeah, I love it. It's bringing the dark out into the light.

Andy Ramage 1:02:42 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:02:43 It's why I love, you know, solitude practices, self-awareness practice, things like journaling, whatever it might be, 'cause it allows you to step outside of your life to reflect on your life. That's a great tool where unless someone's done it, it's quite obvious when you hear you walk it through. But when you're in your life and it's just habitual that on a Friday night you open a bottle of wine and you have half and your wife has half, if, if that's habitual, you've probably never done the pros V cons calculation and just literally [laughs] five minutes of doing that, you'll actually visually see it on a piece of paper very, very clearly. W- you've done a lot of work on coaching, Andy. You, you train a lot of coaches. What is the impact for people on seeing that visually, seeing 10 things in the negatives and only two things in the positives? What, what does that do for someone?

Andy Ramage 1:03:36 Um, it's really based around motivational interviewing, so it gives people that distance, and I think what happens... There's a great saying, my friend Matt talks about this, "When you're inside the jar, you can't read the label."

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:03:47 Yeah.

Andy Ramage 1:03:48 It's so true, isn't it? And I think we've got two billion people inside the jar at the moment in the middle lane. So that exercise gets you out of the jar. You get outside the jar, and now you can look at it. It's on a page. You can see your relationship with alcohol on a page, and from that place of awareness comes the ability to make change. Doesn't necessarily make it easy, but you gain a whole new level of awareness. And I think as coaches, that is a great-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:04:08 Yeah

Andy Ramage 1:04:08 ... foundational skill to start with someone because it's like light bulbs going off everywhere. Oh, maybe it's not the thing that I thought it was. Maybe the stories I've been telling about it all these years actually once were true for me are no longer true. That's a game changer.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:04:23 So the person does the exercise and goes, "Okay, there's a lot of negatives here, not many positives. All right, I'm getting even more convinced now that I might want to experiment with a new relationship." Do you recommend abstinence, like, 28 days, 90 days? Is that, is that what you like people to do to fully experience how good you can feel? Or sometimes, I don't know, let's say you're drinking six glasses of wine a week, is it useful for them to make that three glasses of wine per week? You know, how, how do you find it helpful to guide people through that?

Andy Ramage 1:04:59 Uh, any change is good because three versus six is a masi- massive benefit. But on a personal note, I want people to take a break, whether that be 28 days, ideally 90, to experience all the benefits for themselves, to have that physiological, visceral experience of sleeping better. What it feels like to wake up without that low-grade anxiety hanging around, to get your authentic self back for a month or two and collide with life.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:05:27 Hmm.

Andy Ramage 1:05:27 Do the big social event. Go to the wedding and dance if you have to.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:05:32 Yeah.

Andy Ramage 1:05:32 Deal with the stressful event. Like, that is so powerful. What we spoke about earlier, that's how you rebuild and regain confidence. I think so many people are lacking confidence. So many people are lacking a sense of meaning and purpose, and I think we're looking in all the wrong places. So the longer you can have that stretch of sobriety, whether it be 28 or 90 days, the more impactful that will be. Then you won't need me to tell you.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:05:53 Yeah.

Andy Ramage 1:05:53 You will know for yourself. That is a complete different world from reading it in a book or listening to it on a podcast.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:06:00 When people have in their head 28 days or 90 days, have you found that for all the upsides, is there ever a downside? And what I mean by that is they're just counting down the days to that 28-day point when they can have a drink on day 29, or they can get to day 90, so on day 91 they can have a bottle of champagne and celebrate what they've just done. Have you found that to be an obstacle for some people, or, or not?

Andy Ramage 1:06:30 Yeah, it's, it's a great question. So my approach to this is to make it such a compelling experience that by the end of it, you are loving your life without alcohol. And I know I keep banging the same drum, but equally lots of people might take a Dry Jan, which is a brilliant initiative, with the approach of if I can last Dry Jan and then on the 1st of Feb I can have a drink, I can wear that rusty medal of a month off alcohol for the rest of the year and use that as an excuse to say, "I don't have a problem with alcohol," and then get plastered for the rest of the year. Um, which is completely the wrong approach in my opinion.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:07:05 But that's the co- I see that a lot with Dry January. I see... Again, everyone's different.

Andy Ramage 1:07:11 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:07:11 You know, everyone's got different relationships to it. But that 30-day detox period is often used as a sign to go, "No, I'm cool, 'cause if I had a problem, I wouldn't have been able to do that."

Andy Ramage 1:07:23 Yeah, and that's the completely wrong mindset.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:07:25 Yeah.

Andy Ramage 1:07:25 It's that problematic mindset as opposed to the aspirational, inspirational mindset of- I can't wait to take a break. Let's go for it. Let's see what is lies in store for me. Imagine I've got more time, more energy, all those incredible things. And that's why I think a longer break is really important 'cause I see that a lot. Like December very often gets written off to the fact that a lot of people are gonna do Dry Jan, so they just go bananas in December. Whereas my approach is take the break, but really get into what are the benefits. Look for them. If you look for them, you'll find them, and they could be really subtle benefits. Don't have to be really obvious ones. Or it could be the moment that it's a Saturday night and a loved one, a daughter phones up from a nightclub, it's 2:00 AM in the morning, where you normally have had those couple of glasses of wine, you can jump in the car and you go and save them. Like, those wins are huge. They're monumental when you see them and feel them. So my approach is not to just take a break. It's not about removing something. It's about starting something. Let's build a compelling future. What are your goals? What are your dreams? What are the things that you can do with your time and your energy during that period that would build such a kelli-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:08:25 Yeah

Andy Ramage 1:08:25 ... compelling experience? Why would you go back?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:08:29 Are there common things that people experience along the way? Like one weekend they tend to say A, B, and C. Two weeks in they tend to say D, E, and F. One month in they tend to say other things. I mean, have you... I know every case is individual, so maybe it's hard to say, or are there some similar patterns that you have seen with the people who you've coached?

Andy Ramage 1:08:49 I think early on, depending on where your relationship is, that there's very often headaches. You know, I think if anyone stopped drinking coffee, for example, and I've been on and off coffee, you know, all of my life, you get that sort of-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:09:00 Yeah

Andy Ramage 1:09:00 ... slightly withdrawal symptom. So I think the first couple of days can, uh, you know, experience a little bit of withdrawal, let's say. Even as middle lane drinkers, this is the truth of it. But then after that, I think sleep is the big one that starts to come back.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:09:12 Yeah.

Andy Ramage 1:09:12 That is the big thing people notice. They're like, "I'm sleeping better." And that was what changed my life. Twenty-eight days, I hadn't slept like that in years.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:09:18 Yeah.

Andy Ramage 1:09:19 That deep, restorative sleep. We were talking about if you look at your... You've got your tech, your WHOOP or whatever it is. If you have a couple of drinks, it destroys your recovery, your heart rate variability, and it also destroys your heart rate in terms of it's elevated-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:09:32 Throughout the night, yeah

Andy Ramage 1:09:33 ... at rest. And now I've done a lot of work around that. Sometimes your heart rate's elevated by about 20 beats. My resting heart rate is 42. That would be 50% higher if I was to go out and have a skinful as it were. And that's why I think a lot of people, as a sort of an aside, put themselves into really dangerous places when they try and sweat out the night before because their heart rate's already 50% el- elevated potentially, and then they go and try and beast themselves. That was definitely me. So when you remove that and you sleep better and your recovery's better, I think you start to get that sense of joy come back. Here's another beautiful thing, and, um, Anna Lembke, I think is how you say her name.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:10:10 Yeah.

Andy Ramage 1:10:10 She speaks about this.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:10:11 Dopamine Nation.

Andy Ramage 1:10:11 Dopamine Nation.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:10:12 Yeah.

Andy Ramage 1:10:12 She speaks about this beautifully, much better than I. But what happens, because your beautiful brain is so clever, you've got to remember when we're putting the alcohol drug into our brain, it is a drug like all the others. It attacks us at the neurochemical level. It spikes dopamine. It's where we get some of the feelgood feelings. But your brain, even as a middle lane drinker, is so clever, it starts to prepare in advance for that dopamine spike 'cause it's got to maintain equilibrium. So it puts you into dopamine deficit effectively. So I know a lot of middle lane drinkers, and I would have described it like this. The world felt a bit gray, a bit dull. I couldn't quite put my finger on it.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:10:47 Mm.

Andy Ramage 1:10:48 And the small joys just weren't joyful anymore. Because where I would have got a little dopamine bump from hugging a loved one and I was in dopamine negative potentially, it was neutral.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:10:58 Yeah.

Andy Ramage 1:10:58 Or if I'd seen a sunrise, it was just bouncing to neutral. So I see this consistently with people on their alcohol-free adventure. Suddenly sunrises are joyful. Ice baths are incredible. Sea swims are amazing. Hugs with loved ones. And I think what's happened for a lot of them, their brains are just recalibrating.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:11:15 Yeah.

Andy Ramage 1:11:16 And they're getting those bumps of joy from the joyful things in life, which are hugs and sunrises and ice baths, if you love that kind of stuff.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:11:24 Do you know what I love about your approach, Andy, is that you're, you're selling the upside. We haven't really gone deep yet into the fact that excess alcohol consumption will increase your risk of seven different cancers, increase your risk of liver cirrhosis, increase your risk of all kinds of different chronic diseases. That hasn't come up yet, and I like the fact that it hasn't come up yet because more and more I'm convinced that people don't need more information. They don't need more knowledge and more science about the downsides to certain things like alcohol or sugar or ultra-processed foods, whatever it might be. Most people know enough. It's not more knowledge they need. It's that inner awareness. It's that experience. As you say, do ninety days without any alcohol at all, and then you've got a really good comparison to make yourself. Doesn't matter what I say or what you say, Andy. It's like is your life better without alcohol or with alcohol? And then you're empowered. And then it also means that if you then do go and have a couple of glasses of wine one weekend, and the next week you've written off again, which often happens, you're like, "Oh, yeah, why did I do that? Actually, maybe, maybe I'm better off not drinking." That's kind of what happened with me bit by bit. Do you know what I mean? It's kind of so you're selling the upside, which is one of the reasons I think you're being so successful in helping people because it's not about fear and negativity, and this is gonna increase your risk of cancer, whatever it might be. You're, you're, you're making it aspirational for people.

Andy Ramage 1:13:00 It's so true because then I think if you hit people over the head with the stats and facts, it's always coming from a place of loss, isn't it?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:13:06 Yeah.

Andy Ramage 1:13:06 It's like, oh, I'm despondent now. I can't do that thing that I want to do because I might get cancer. And then from that place, people don't make lasting change. Whereas I'm like, actually, what a gift. You're not gonna get can- or you're less likely to get cancer because you don't drink, but why would you drink in the first place? Because you get all these incredible benefits. So let's just celebrate the wins, the joys, make it aspirational, inspirational, and I think you get much better results for people that way. 'Cause ultimately people need to want to change as opposed to being forced or feeling like they should change.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:13:36 Okay.

Andy Ramage 1:13:36 We know that. It's so much more powerful when that motivation is internal, intrinsic.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:13:41 What advice would you give to someone who has been on this journey before, who maybe for two or three years has been thinking about their relationship with alcohol and has, you know, maybe done a couple of 90-day periods where they didn't do it, but somehow it's slipped back in, but they're really keen to keep trying. What would you say to them?

Andy Ramage 1:14:03 I think first and foremost, we have to realize as well very often for lots of people, slip-ups as well. I know you were talking about longer breaks from alcohol, but I think also slip-ups or going back to drinking is a part of many people's story-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:14:19 Mm

Andy Ramage 1:14:19 ... and I think a necessary part of change. I think Richard Rohr, the great spiritual author who I love, says, "We learn more by getting it wrong than we do by getting it right."

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:14:27 Absolutely.

Andy Ramage 1:14:27 And I think it's so true. We learn through our mistakes. You know, you lift the trophy aloft, yeah, it's nice, but when you lose 5-0, that is a lesson to teach you much more than lifting the trophy, and I think it's very indicative of life and any behavioral change. You know, again, back to Prochaska, the stages of change model. His brilliant research showed us that on average, it would take people five or six times around all those stages of change to make lasting change. So it's like an upwards corkscrew of change.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:14:56 Mm-hmm.

Andy Ramage 1:14:56 I think every time someone does a 90 days or takes a break, they're going further up that corkscrew. Yes, it might technically look like they've come back to the start because they're drinking again, but they haven't. They're forever changed, and I think they-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:15:07 Exactly

Andy Ramage 1:15:07 ... continue up that spiral, upward spiral, that corkscrew, to such a point one day they do wake up and go, like I did. That's exactly what I did, and I go, "Actually, I'm not doing that anymore."

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:15:16 Yeah.

Andy Ramage 1:15:16 "I've had enough."

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:15:17 You're absolutely right. You know, in my experience as well, when you fall down, when you don't meet the goal you set for yourself, as long as you don't go into a cycle of guilt and shame, if you can avoid doing that, you're having some of the most powerful learning experiences of your life, right? That supposed failure is teaching you so much. As long as you don't allow the negative self-talk to come in and go, "What a loser I am. I can't stick to anything," and, and that guilt and shame gets you right back to where you started. You have to look at it differently and go, "Wow, that's interesting. I did it for 90 days, but those two drinks on Saturday night wrecked my next three or four days. Wow. Isn't that interesting? Wow. Wouldn't it be nicer if I didn't do that?" Different, completely different self-talk about the same situation.

Andy Ramage 1:16:09 This is really important. One of the biggest things I do with the coaches that I train and in my coaching is coach around slip-ups. Now, when I first got into this, it was like Voldemort, he who shall not be named. I've never mentioned slip-ups. It's like I can't go there, because if I talk about someone, you know, departing the wagon or whatever it might be, in some way I'd convince myself I was almost giving them license. Then I understood the science and the reality of it. So a lot of what we do is prepare people in advance to counteract that shame because what I noticed, and we see this all the time, people will try and make a change. They'll slip and beat themselves up and tell themselves, "I'm broken. I'm not worthy. Everyone else is perfect. I'm no good," and disappear, and you can't help someone who's disappeared.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:16:48 Mm.

Andy Ramage 1:16:48 So what we would do is actually out front right at the start go, "Right, there's a high chance at some point it doesn't work out. What are your options? What are your options if it doesn't work out?"

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:16:57 Mm.

Andy Ramage 1:16:57 "What can you learn from it?" You know, and in that place you empower someone. You're not giving them license to slip up. You're empowering them with the fact that maybe it will go wrong. But then they remember that training, and instead of feeling shameful and regretful and sweeping it under the carpet, they bounce back stronger from that experience. Again, that's how you make lasting change.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:17:15 Yeah. I want to share with you a couple of experiences, Andy, over the last 12 months for me, which I think speak to some of the things that have come up so far. So last June, one of my best mates had his stag do, um, and there was about 12 of us who got together in the Lake District for a weekend. I think about five of us, including the groom, didn't drink at all on this, in inverted commas, "stag do," right?

Andy Ramage 1:17:45 Wow.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:17:46 So five of us weren't drinking, including me. Seven people were. I guess two, two or three were very minimal, but maybe three or four were going full on, and it was really interesting because everyone had a great time. No one was actually putting any pressure on anyone else. So the people who were not drinking were just not drinking. The people who were, were. So that was quite nice, and I do think society's changing a little bit-

Andy Ramage 1:18:09 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:18:09 ... where I thought, that's interesting. I don't think 10, 15 years ago... Maybe it's, you know, our ages as well. Maybe in our 20s it would've been very different. We were a lot more immature back then. But, so that was interesting. Second thing though was we were in the Lake District to go up Scafell Pike on the Saturday, and I remember this so well. It was the heat wave. It must've been about 28 degrees. It was really hot, and we got up early to go and get up to Scafell Pike and come down, right? It's a pretty, pretty long way to go. And about half an hour in, I was starting to really worry because there were two people on that stag do who were totally smashed the night before. I think they would admit they're slightly out of shape. We were half an hour up. They looked red. They looked hanging basically.

Andy Ramage 1:19:05 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:19:06 Right? And I actually stopped the group and said, "Hey, guys, listen, let's not be stupid here. We're not in our 20s." I thought someone's gonna have an MI up the mountain here.

Andy Ramage 1:19:13 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:19:13 Like a, a myocardial infarction, a heart attack, right? I was actually genuinely concerned. I thought, I know in our 20s people would do crazy stuff. I did crazy stuff, which I definitely wouldn't recommend, but I was like, this could go horrendously wrong. People have been hitting it hard on the booze. They're unfit. They're trying to go up this big mountain in a heat wave. This is a bad idea. So thankfully, those two or three kind of stopped and stayed at the bottom, just sat there all day just, you know, rehydrating while the rest of us went up and down. So it's quite interesting, isn't it? Because how many times would people end up You know, with some quite serious consequences from still in their 40s trying to act as if they were in their 20s. And you mentioned heart rate before, and heart rate variability and recovery. These guys, I mean, they weren't wearing trackers, but no doubt their heart rates would have been through the roof already to deal with the booze. That is a recipe for a big problem. And I was thinking, these guys have got partners, they've got children. Come on, Rangan, be responsible here. Say what you need to say because something's gonna go badly wrong here.

Andy Ramage 1:20:22 Yeah. It's so true. And again, physiologically, we don't realize.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:20:25 Yeah.

Andy Ramage 1:20:25 We have no idea the impact. And, and I would see this. I work with a great guy called Christian Daley, who was former captain of West Ham, captain of Scotland. He's a brilliant physiological coach. So we would track heart rates. We'd see it all the time in many of those clients. He works with me in the corporate environment. He trains people physically. I train them in resilience and mentally. And he would track heart rate variability, heart rate at baseline, and we would see sometimes, as I described earlier, 20 beats.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:20:50 Yeah.

Andy Ramage 1:20:50 Like imagine that at rest. So normally-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:20:52 That's like you're having a workout, but you're not. You're-

Andy Ramage 1:20:54 You're doing it

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:20:54 ... literally out... You're having a workout just to be sat there at rest.

Andy Ramage 1:20:58 Yeah. And then you climb a mountain.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:20:59 Yeah.

Andy Ramage 1:21:00 That's when you keel over is the truth of it because you're putting your heart in places that it shouldn't be. But there's also something more important about what you just said. Those people that didn't climb the mountain, they missed something. They missed something really bloody important. They didn't get to the top of that mountain.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:21:14 Yeah.

Andy Ramage 1:21:15 And that could have been a beautiful experience for them, and they missed that because of those fr- few drinks the night before. We often talk about, you know, FOMO, don't we? The fear of missing out. I like JOMO, the joy of missing out. And, and I'll share a story if I can, which is not-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:21:27 Please

Andy Ramage 1:21:28 ... dissimilar. My best friends, they all drink, great Irish lads, and we spent a trip together, and we created things to do during the day, really for me. And we were going to the Aran Islands, which is a tiny island off the coast of Ireland.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:21:40 Yeah.

Andy Ramage 1:21:40 And we arrived, and the whole idea, we were going to this beautiful Dun Aengus Fort. I didn't know anything about it. I just knew the name of it. We arrive, it's 10:30 AM. It is sheet rain, absolutely lashing from the heavens. There's nothing to do. The mountain biking trip is canceled. The only place open is the pub. So we're in the pub at half 10. My friends all drink. They start drinking. I'm not drinking, clearly. And I was so despondent. I was like, "Well, I've lost my mates for the day," is the truth of it. Fast-forward two o'clock, it's already too late for them. They're singing. They're on the... All that sort of stuff is happening. And the sun comes out.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:22:14 Oh.

Andy Ramage 1:22:14 So I noticed the sun coming out, and I'm like, "Well, actually, we're meant to do this thing. I think I'm just gonna duck out." And of course, I'm not gonna say goodbye to them, otherwise I would've got the classic, you know, arm round the neck, "I love you, son. You can't leave." So I backdoored it. Backdoored it. I had no idea where I was going. I didn't know... I had no mountain bike. I just knew we were meant to go to this place, this Dun Aengus Fort. So I started to walk, and I kept walking, and I kept walking. I reckon I walked for six hours on my own. I didn't see anyone for the best part of four hours. It's a remote island in Ireland. And I happened upon this fort, Dun Aengus, which is centuries old. And as I climbed over the rubble, you're met with this sheer granite cliff face.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:22:53 Mm.

Andy Ramage 1:22:53 You're looking out onto the Atlantic Ocean.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:22:54 Oh, wow.

Andy Ramage 1:22:54 So I'm getting goosebumps thinking about it now. I was hit by the power of the sea, the wind, this sheer drop about 80 meters in this spiritual place, and I'll... I had what I'll describe as a spiritual experience. It was unbelievable. I felt connected to something bigger than myself. Everything made sense. It was just a joyous experience.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:23:13 Yeah.

Andy Ramage 1:23:13 One of the most joyous of my life. And I left that moment, and I walked home again, literally with the biggest smile. I arrived back 10 o'clock at night. I looked in the door. Where were my mates? In the same space. And what I realized in that moment was that I would have missed one of the greatest moments of my life stuck in that pub like I've been stuck in that pub a thousand times before.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:23:36 Mm.

Andy Ramage 1:23:36 And it made me realize how many things like that are we missing out on-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:23:41 Mm

Andy Ramage 1:23:41 ... because of our relationship with alcohol as middle lane drinkers-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:23:44 Yeah

Andy Ramage 1:23:44 ... could be game changing.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:23:45 Yeah. Thanks for sharing that, mate. Honestly, I mean, it's really, really powerful. And there's that wider point, isn't there, which is that everything in life pretty much has upsides and downsides.

Andy Ramage 1:23:57 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:23:58 But we often only look at the upsides. The upside being I'm with my mates in the pub drinking, right? Okay. Let's assume that is an upside, and I know you could unpick as to why it potentially is not an upside, right? But let's assume that is an upside. Well, what's the downside here? You know, do that calculation, and over time, you might realize that actually, well, wait a minute, maybe there are more upsides to not drinking now than upsides to drinking. I certainly feel that's what's happened in my life. I've got to the point where I'm just not interested in drinking. Like I'm not even tempted. It's interesting. Um, end of January this year, I went to France for a ski weekend. Now, I haven't skied since 2019, I think, and I used to love going skiing regularly. And, you know, this year I've made a decision that I want to get back into my passions. So went to France for a long weekend. And it's really interesting. There was, you know, a group of friends there, and I was the only one not drinking. To make sure you're taking action after watching this video, I've created a free guide to help you build healthy habits. We can all make short-term change, but can those changes become a fundamental part of our life? Often they don't, and that's why in this free guide, I share with you the six crucial steps you need to take. They're really, really effective. If you want to get hold of that free guide right now, all you have to do is click the link in the description box below. And although it was fun to get back to the mountains and ski, I remember coming back thinking I actually didn't enjoy that weekend as much as I thought I would. And a lot of it was around drink because everyone else was drinking, so that meant all the social activities revolved around that. Now, I was very happy not drinking I would just have my sparkling water. You know, if I was feeling bold, I'd put a bit of lime in it.

Andy Ramage 1:25:59 Whoa.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:25:59 You know? Second thing I realized, I've spent years being hungover in the mountains. I'm not interested. I wanna get up, I wanna meditate, I wanna connect with the mountains, I wanna connect with the snow, and, and all that kind of stuff. So have you got any comments on that, Andy?

Andy Ramage 1:26:15 Yeah, because I think the bigger part of that as well, you would come back energized in many ways, having had that experience. And I know it wasn't quite how you want it to play out, but those that were drinking would come back ruined.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:26:25 Yeah.

Andy Ramage 1:26:25 It would take them two weeks to get over that one weekend.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:26:27 Totally.

Andy Ramage 1:26:28 We've all been there, and I think we forget that, that knock-on effect. And I love skiing, and I learnt to ski as a broker, so I'd take our clients skiing, so it was a mess. It was constantly awash with alcohol, and I found it brutal, to be honest, mentally and physically. And now I ski with my daughters and my wife. It's joyous. You know?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:26:45 Mm.

Andy Ramage 1:26:46 It's joyous to get on the slope. For me, alcohol destroys a great skiing holiday, 'cause exactly that. You're not as energized and upbeat. Again, just my opinion. And I think we see that a lot with holidays with guys that connect together or groups that go out together. When the focus is alcohol, it changes the dynamic. There's, there's no denying that. I think you can show up and shine alcohol-free. But what I'm seeing now more of, which was great to hear about, uh, the stag do, is that bigger groups of people are starting to drink less, and I think it is still a very much a solo mission. And I think what you would've done is inspired probably a lot of people, uh, on that event.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:27:19 Yeah, I think so, 'cause there were a few chats at various times individually with me from people when I... which I found really interesting. One guy was saying... Well, it was actually interesting. He said, um, alcohol doesn't agree with him at all. At all, you know? He can... He knows that even one drink will wipe out the next day. He feels he has some sort of real intolerance, but he was still getting smashed with his mates 'cause they're his old mates.

Andy Ramage 1:27:41 It's, it's hard.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:27:42 And I get it. I mean, but it... when you're, when you're sober, you watch and go, "That is crazy."

Andy Ramage 1:27:46 Yeah. What we doing?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:27:46 But you know it doesn't agree with you. You've got these three days in the mountains, and you're gonna obliterate them. And the other thing I found fascinating, and again, there's no judgment here, Andy, 'cause I have been in those situations before.

Andy Ramage 1:27:58 As have I.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:27:58 Right?

Andy Ramage 1:27:58 Yeah, exactly.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:27:59 But we were out on a Saturday night, um, and we were in the, the... We had a meal, and we went in this bar. I was chatting to a mate of mine there, sitting at the bar, both with our sparkling waters, and I think it was about 11:00 PM, one of them ordered a load of, uh, like, triple shots of the most horrendous looking spirit. And, you know, they all did it, and again, no judgment, but what was so interesting for me is I thought, "Wow, you've had all the fun. You've had all the bonding. You've had all the connection. Now we're at 11:00 or 11:30 PM. All you're doing is creating more pain tomorrow." And it's so interesting when you're out of it to watch it and go, it's absolute madness. But again, no judgment. I've been there before. It was just fascinating to observe it.

Andy Ramage 1:28:49 But that's the important thing that we're talking about. Because when you do observe it, you realize, oh, actually, are they having fun?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:28:55 Yeah.

Andy Ramage 1:28:56 And I would look at that group and know that they're not. They might think they do 'cause they're caught up in, you know, the alcohol induced-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:29:01 Yeah, maybe that case, 'cause someone's gonna say... Someone may be thinking, Andy, so what's wrong with that, right? They're having fun with their mates. That's their way of connecting. That's their way of bonding. Who are you to say that they're not having fun?

Andy Ramage 1:29:14 Yeah. From my point of view to observe it, often you see the way that the, the evening breaks down. And of course there's those early parts of the evening when everyone's pretty much on the same wavelength, and I love that. So for me, socially, I'm out all the time drinking my alcohol frees. But I'm, I'm ducking out after two hours-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:29:30 Yeah

Andy Ramage 1:29:30 ... before it gets a bit messy. Or with one of my colleagues, I had a four pint rule. [laughs] He was particularly annoying after four pints. So I said, "You can drink them as quick as you like, or as slow as you like, but the second you [laughs] tip the scale of four pints, I'm gone. So it's up to you."

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:29:43 That's a good take home, isn't it?

Andy Ramage 1:29:44 [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:29:44 If you, if you do go, if you do... If you don't drink and you're gonna go out with people who do drink-

Andy Ramage 1:29:49 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:29:49 ... just give them all a, like, their own rule. I quite like that.

Andy Ramage 1:29:52 A, a little rule. But then you observe, right? So I'm around people that are drinking all the time and, and genuinely, this is just my opinion, I'm like, "You're not having fun anymore. I can see it. You're repeating yourself. You just don't look well. You know, the conversation's just gone." But when you're in it, you don't notice it, do you?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:30:08 Yeah.

Andy Ramage 1:30:08 When you're inside the jar and you're all collectively... Oh, here's the big thing. This is the classic. And then we all contribute to the biggest cultural lie in history. And I've done this, the great night lie, where you all wake up the next day, right? And someone... And let's just say you've gone out drinking in the week, and the reality is you've come home, you now feel awful. You're anxious, you're tired, you've got to go to work. You don't want to go to work. Someone gets on the WhatsApp, WhatsApp and says, "Great night." And then everyone joins in that cultural lie and says, "Yeah. Great night." Truth is, most of the people that are sharing that great night have probably got themselves into trouble with their partner at home. They now feel awful. They've probably canceled their exercise. They're gonna eat rubbish food. They're gonna be terrible at their job all day. But we constantly try and sort of keep ourselves deluded and in this trap. It's quite a weird thing to experience. Until you're out of it, then you see it.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:30:55 What about the social pressure though? Because a lot of the time in these sort of gatherings, because historically people got together and would drink... Uh, and look, I wanna first of all make it really clear that I know not everyone has this experience. Of course, certain religions don't drink at all.

Andy Ramage 1:31:14 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:31:15 Right? So to them, it's, it must be like, what the hell are you guys cracking on about? Like, we don't drink at all. We don't have to deal with that. Do you know what I mean? So everyone's got a different experience of life. I think it's really important to acknowledge that. But for people who have experienced the sort of things we're talking about and are now at a point in their life where they're, you know, starting to question things, it's often that social pressure that keeps them locked where they are. How do you help people get over that? Because that's a very, very powerful force that some people simply cannot get over

Andy Ramage 1:31:49 Yeah, I think, as you say, social pressure is huge. It is changing, though. You know, even in the last five years-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:31:54 That's true

Andy Ramage 1:31:54 ... I've seen that change dramatically. I think since the advent of alcohol-free alternatives, I think when you're with someone and you're drinking something that looks like they're drinking, tastes like that drink, it eases that social tension. When I got into this 10 years ago, there wasn't any of that, and it was, it was even harder. But there's still social pressure. There always is. But I think as well it's to remind yourself that this is a solo mission, and I think if it is good for you and you're getting benefits from it, then I think you constantly have to remind yourself. I think online communities are huge, and I do have to put a shout-out to what has also changed over the last five years is the rise of the alcohol-free influencer on Instagram and Facebook. There's power in our pocket, I think, at times, especially with alcohol. I think it can feel quite a lonely experience because you might be going out with your friends and they're all drinking and they're putting that social pressure-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:32:40 Mm

Andy Ramage 1:32:40 ... on you. And I think to feel like you've got an app or a community or an influencer or someone-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:32:45 Yeah

Andy Ramage 1:32:45 ... that you admire, like, in your pocket that you can turn to I think is really important. I think we need that. I think, you know, I'm on a real mission to celebrate lots of elite performers, whether they be athletes or entrepreneurs that don't drink, because we don't really know who those people are. I think we do need broader role models to help people in them, those moments of tension-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:33:01 Yeah

Andy Ramage 1:33:01 ... when they're being socially pressurized to think, "Well, actually my hero doesn't drink and he's getting elite performance"

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:33:06 Mm.

Andy Ramage 1:33:06 "Or she doesn't drink and she's this incredible businesswoman, therefore I, I can h- you can bat away that social pressure."

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:33:12 Yeah. It seems as though in our society, Andy, that the only two valid reasons for not drinking are, number one, I was an alcoholic, in which case people go, "Oh yeah, okay. No problem. I get it." Or if you are a member of a religion where they don't drink, like Islam, for example. I think people don't push back in those situations. I think if you were to say any of those two things in a group, people would understand, oh, it's okay. You know, you had a real problem with it. But apart from that, you almost have to justify your relationship with alcohol in a way that you don't have to justify your relationship with, frankly, anything else. We talked about this during our first conversation, that it's almost as if you have to state your relationship with alcohol. Me in that bar in France on the ski trip, me not drinking requires an explanation. No one drinking requires an explanation. That's fine. That's the accepted norm. It's a kind of bizarre relationship we have. Whereas if we could just be respectful to everyone and go, everyone can live how they wanna live. If you wanna drink, go for your life. If you don't wanna drink, go for your life. But questioning people who don't choose to share the same behavior as we do, it's kind of a little bizarre, isn't it?

Andy Ramage 1:34:33 All of it's nuts.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:34:34 It is nuts.

Andy Ramage 1:34:35 When you get some space from it and you look at it and you go, "What on earth are we doing? How have we ended up in this situation where we feel pressurized to effectively take a drug that someone might have figured out is no good for them? They don't enjoy it"

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:34:46 Or pressure other people to give you an answer of why they're choosing not to partake in a drug.

Andy Ramage 1:34:52 Exactly.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:34:52 That's crazy. 'Cause let, let's just unpick this a little bit, right? Because I don't think we see it like that because it's the accepted norm in many cultures. But actually, what other behavior do you feel it's within your right to publicly probe someone else as to their choices around it? You know, we don't do it with many th- many other things.

Andy Ramage 1:35:16 It's the only drug in the world that when you try and stop taking it, you often get berated for that fact. Everything else you'd be celebrated. If you started an exercise routine, people would cheer you on. If you quit smoking, you'd high-five. Yet try and take a break from alcohol and people want to pull you out on it and, and question-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:35:33 But why is that, do you think?

Andy Ramage 1:35:34 I think it's so socially ingrained. This is back to the way we've been marketed to probably for the last 100 years. It's seeped into every area of our society to such a point we've lost all concept of what it is. We treat it like fizzy pop. It shows up at every engagement. It's crept into our society. I think big alcohol's got a massive role to play in that, in, in the proliferation.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:35:55 Is that changing? We're saying many things have changed in the last-

Andy Ramage 1:35:57 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:35:57 ... five or six years. I'm really interested in your perspective here because recently I've been watching a few films with my son. It's something he really likes to do. We s- we sit down together, we watch a film. They're often kind of action movies, right? And I've noticed in most of them that I've seen recently, even new stuff that's just come out on Netflix, you can see the product placement of alcohol. Still today. I was hoping that would've changed, but I'm thinking, I don't kind of like this. He's watching stuff where the cool guy at the end of the, the mission is celebrating with, you know, a beautiful lady, um, who's also drinking and... Do you know what I mean? That it's kind of like, what is that subliminal message that's going into him at a young age that success and, you know, interacting with the opposite sex or whatever it might be, it all revolves around booze.

Andy Ramage 1:36:53 So true. We're marketed to from the age of dirt, and we wonder why we end up in this situation where it's just seeped into every single aspect of our society. So it tells a story that to be romantic you need alcohol, to have fun you need alcohol-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:37:06 Mm

Andy Ramage 1:37:06 ... to get with your friends you need alcohol, and the truth is you just don't. You know, all of those things become more joyous and enjoyable without having to take this drug that changes the picture or changes your persona. And I think that's why we've got such a lot of work to do. We're at the precipice.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:37:21 Mm-hmm.

Andy Ramage 1:37:21 It feels like I've been pushing up this flywheel, this gigantic flywheel for the last 10 years, but it really starts to feel like we are starting to see change slowly but surely, and I really believe in the next five years that flywheel's gonna tip and it's really going to pick up. I think we'll start to see a lot of alcohol coming out of mass media, advertising being shut down, and I think people will have this cultural awareness of, actually- Why is it in our life? How did it, how did it sh- end up that I have a kid's birthday party and all the adults are drinking?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:37:52 Mm.

Andy Ramage 1:37:52 What- what's it got to do with my kid's birthday party? What's it got to do with every wedding? What's it got to do with Christmas?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:37:57 Mm.

Andy Ramage 1:37:57 Like, rather than building our whole life around this product that's taking away our time, our energy, our looks, our health, let's start building, like, a new approach and giving people choice. I'm just about choice, and I think that's really gonna happen.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:38:10 Let's talk about children, okay? You've got two kids.

Andy Ramage 1:38:14 Yep.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:38:16 I don't wanna necessarily ask you how you deal with this personally with your own children, but broadly speaking, something I think about a lot given the age my kids are, they're not yet at the age, to my knowledge at least, where their peers are drinking. But I know some of my other friends who've got slightly older kids are, and, you know, even at 15, 16, some of my friends' kids are out drinking with their mates on Friday nights and Saturday nights. Now, I don't like the thought of that at all for my kids in a few years. I haven't had to deal with it yet. I don't know what the kind of pulse of the alcohol kind of movement in kids is, and teenagers, and adolescents at the moment around where I live. But what advice might you have for parents who are trying to navigate that? Their 15-year-old, their 16-year-old is being invited to parties, and people are drinking. Their peers are drinking. Have you come across this? Have you got any advice to share? 'Cause I think this is a big issue as well.

Andy Ramage 1:39:19 Yeah, I think as Gandhi said, "Be the change that you want to see in the world." It's like those parents that I can imagine are on their phones telling their kids to get off their phones.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:39:29 Yeah.

Andy Ramage 1:39:29 Right? We've all made that hypocritical mistake. I think it's a bit like that with alcohol. You know, for me, if you really value that, take a break yourself. Show them how radiant you are, how great you look. You know, all the momentum you're building in your life. You're crushing it at parkruns or whatever it looks like. And in my family set-up, my wife still drinks, Tara, and I don't. So my kids have had the two big role models in their life. One drinks, one doesn't, and I've just left it up to them and their choices. But what I've noticed for kids, which didn't exist when we were growing up, I've got two cultural experiments going on with my kids at the moment. One's 16, one's 18, and when the 18-year-old was 16, she went to a party and she took a bottle of NoSecco, so alcohol-free Prosecco-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:40:07 Mm

Andy Ramage 1:40:07 ... so NoSecco out of the fridge, and I saw her walking out the door and I thought, "Oh, no." Through my map of the world, I thought, "She's gonna get the mickey taken out of her. The kids are gonna laugh at her. She's gonna be the only kid with the alcohol-free drink." So she goes to this party, comes back, and I'm like, "How'd you get on?" She went, "Brilliant." I went, "What about the NoSecco?" She went, "Oh yeah, loads of kids had it." I was like, game changer right there. That's one culture experiment. The second experiment, my 16-year-old has been drinking my alcohol-free beers since she was about 13. So she'll go to the fridge and crack one open, and I'm a bit like, is this a good thing or a bad thing? I don't know. But as it transpires, they're 16, 18, alcohol's not in their life. I mean, maybe they've drunk, I don't know about it, but it's not in their life in the way that it was for us. And what they're having to do that we didn't do, they're having to collide with life without alcohol. So they're training all the skills-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:40:55 Mm

Andy Ramage 1:40:55 ... that you need to train, such as being social, such as going to festivals, such as having fun, without alcohol. And maybe it will play a role in their life, but the longer it goes on, and the research backs this up, the less likely they are to have problems with alcohol down the line. So the later we can leave it for our kids to drink, the better. And I think there's that mythology about that French approach of introducing it, which we always get completely wrong 'cause we're not French and it's not our culture, of introducing it early to our children. But again, the research plays it out. The younger that children start drinking, the more likely they are to run into problems as an adult.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:41:29 Yeah. I mean, as an adult, as someone who knows the biology of alcohol and what it does to your brain and what it does to a developing brain, I can't stand the thought of my beautiful children drinking that stuff, you know, certainly as adolescents and teenagers. So look, if we have a conversation in a few years, I can tell you where we're up to with that because that hasn't been an issue so far. But I think you raise a really important point, Andy, and it's an uncomfortable truth, I think, for many parents, and this goes beyond alcohol. This is about smartphone use. This is about all kinds of things. It's about being present with the people around you. Kids do what they see you doing, right? So the best way, in my view, to help your kids is to sort your own stuff out, and start to behave and act in the way that you think is a great example to them. I mean, certainly that's always the approach I've taken as a parent. In fact, I would probably say, I think we covered this on our first conversation. I think one of the first times I started to question drinking any alcohol was in the first year of my son's life where I remember I ha- I think I had one lager with a friend in a pub, and the next morning I was just feeling a bit headachey and a bit tired, and I just... You know, my son wanted, you know, he was a baby. He wanted to play with his dad. But the alcohol I had the night before had gotten in the way of that, and for me, that was a big, "Okay, sort yourself out, son," you know?

Andy Ramage 1:43:07 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:43:07 As in me.

Andy Ramage 1:43:08 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:43:08 "Sort yourself out, Rangan." Um, that's not his fault. And I do believe with parenting, and I know it's hard and know people are under a lot of pressure, the behaviors you want in your children, you kind of gotta showcase them.

Andy Ramage 1:43:23 So true, and I think, again, if we look at optimal performance and alcohol, it makes you tired and grumpy and maybe a bit more snappy, and you might not have the energy. That in itself has that huge impact on how you're showing up and the energy that's in the household.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:43:38 Mm.

Andy Ramage 1:43:38 And that's why I really believe, and I know I'm so passionate about it and I'm the most biased man on the planet, but taking a break or, you know, changing your relationship with alcohol, even if it's not the entirety of your family, but maybe one of you, makes such a difference. And I look at my lovely wife, Tara, who's my biggest supporter, who still drinks, you know? And that's her choice, and I totally respect that and I totally love her for that.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:43:58 How has that been?

Andy Ramage 1:44:00 It's been really interesting. She has been there for me the whole way through it, and it must've been hard for her, right? 'Cause it was my empowered choice, but she effectively one night lost her drinking buddy, as it were. Not that she would drink a lot, but we would definitely drink more together.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:44:12 Yeah.

Andy Ramage 1:44:13 And we've had to adapt and adjust. You know, do we go out and stay out till two, two AM in the morning? Less so, but we've probably matured out of that anyway. And also Tara's got a great group of friends who she loves, real close girlfriends who like to drink together and go out together, and I leave them to it because that's not my thing. So we've got a really nice way of dealing with that in many ways.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:44:32 Feel free not to answer this question if it's too, you know, personal about your own life. But what's interesting to me is that you are the, you know, one of the public faces of the alcohol-free movement, and you wax lyrical on my show and, you know, whenever I see you online about the benefits of an alcohol-free lifestyle. I wonder what that's like for your wife because if she is continuing to drink, and of course, as you say, it's her choice and she's got friends to go out with and do that with, let's say, our behavior often puts a mirror up to the people around us-

Andy Ramage 1:45:07 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:45:07 ... right? So it's really interesting for me that she does drink and you don't. So in my life, for example, my wife doesn't drink either anymore. So for both of us, it's not an issue. On holiday or wherever, you know, we just don't drink. We just love a good sparkling water, right, with lime.

Andy Ramage 1:45:24 Yeah. That's the best.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:45:25 You know? With lime.

Andy Ramage 1:45:26 Go crazy.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:45:26 Right? So what's that like for you guys? Is that... You know, if she's hungover one morning, for example, you know, do you have to restrain yourself and be, "Well, you know" [laughs]

Andy Ramage 1:45:37 Told you so. Yeah. And again, I totally, you know, love and respect Tara's choices, and I think that's really important. And she, she doesn't drink that much. She drinks a lot less than we used to drink together.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:45:47 Yeah.

Andy Ramage 1:45:47 So it, it doesn't get in the way of our relationship at all. But it's interesting. I think about two and a half years ago, Tara decided to do this fitness plan. It's called the Six-Pack Revolution. Don't know if you've heard about it. When you got on the inside of that plan, it was quite clever. One of the ways to get best results was to not drink. So Tara diligently follows this plan. She looks incredible losing all this weight. She's not drinking. She pulls me to one side like she's telling me a secret, right? And this is why people have to be ready to change. She goes, "Andy, I haven't been drinking for the last 45 days." I'm like, "I know. That's why you look amazing." She went, "Yeah, but I've got more time. I've got more energy. I've got more clarity. I'm getting more stuff done." I'm looking at her like, "Have you not been listening to me for the last 10 years banging on about all these bloody benefits?" And I think that is such a beautiful example of people need to be ready to change when they're ready to change. You cannot make people change.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:46:37 Yeah.

Andy Ramage 1:46:37 So I show up and shine my light and do my thing. And if Tara wants to join me on the fun side of the island at some point, it would be a wonderful thing, but until that point, that is her choice.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:46:46 For me, there's another point there which is we don't always wanna hear that information from our partner.

Andy Ramage 1:46:54 Exactly.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:46:55 You know? We sometimes need to hear that information from someone removed from us where there isn't that personal connection. That goes for alcohol, for diet, for working out, whatever. I've seen it. I've experienced it over and over again. We're not always... I would say more often than not, we're not the person to give our partners or our loved ones that information, and I think after a while you realize that the best way is the way you're demonstrating, which is just show up, be yourself. Do... Be your authentic self. Live the way that you want to live, and that shines out to everyone around you.

Andy Ramage 1:47:33 It's so powerful. It's the most powerful thing you can do. And lots of people approach me and say, "I've got a loved one that I'm concerned about." It's the same story.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:47:40 Yeah.

Andy Ramage 1:47:40 I'm like, if you've got a loved one you're concerned about and you're drinking in the middle lane, stop drinking. Take a break yourself. Show up and shine with a new energy. Show them what it's like for you to live your life without alcohol. I think again, that's probably the most powerful thing you can do rather than telling someone what they should do.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:47:57 Yeah.

Andy Ramage 1:47:57 And I think by seeing someone, you change their beliefs. You make them believe that maybe it's possible for them. And it might not happen after six months. It might take six years, but eventually they get there. I always laugh about it. You know, I go live on Instagram and Facebook most days, and I reckon for the last basically 10 years, I'm probably the most swiped past man on the planet. I reckon they're like, "Oh, here he is again."

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:48:18 [laughs]

Andy Ramage 1:48:18 "Banging on about... Oh." Like imagine years go by. "Oh, there he goes again, banging on about alcohol-free." Swipe. And the amount of people who've told me they've done this. They've swiped past me for about four years. And then of course it's slowly going in. They wake up one morning and think, "Oh, I wonder has he got something interesting to say" And then fast-forward six months, they're alcohol-free and they're like-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:48:38 Because they're ready

Andy Ramage 1:48:38 ... they're ready.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:48:39 Yeah.

Andy Ramage 1:48:39 You have to wait, and I think that's so truthful. We equate change with action, and sometimes it's not about action. Sometimes it's just about awareness. That's why these podcasts-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:48:46 Yeah

Andy Ramage 1:48:46 ... are so wonderful, right? Because what we're doing is just raising people's awareness.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:48:50 Yeah.

Andy Ramage 1:48:51 It might be in the corner of their consciousness. They might be thinking, "I wonder." And when they wake up with a bit of a hangover and realize it's taken them a week to get over it, it might be like, well, actually, are those perceived upsides worth-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:49:02 Mm

Andy Ramage 1:49:02 ... that week of underperformance? And it might take them a year or two. They might come back and listen to this podcast as people do all the time-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:49:08 Yeah

Andy Ramage 1:49:09 ... years later and make that change. What a wonderful thing that is. And I think that's what's so important about this. We're not wagging fingers. I'm not telling anyone what they should do. We're just trying to show up and shine our light. You do it so beautifully as well. And in doing so, we motivate-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:49:21 Yeah

Andy Ramage 1:49:21 ... and inspire people. That's how you make change.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:49:24 Tell me about this documentary you're making.

Andy Ramage 1:49:26 Oh, yeah. This is so cool. So this is, again, another thing that was never meant to be in the world. I just stumbled into it by fluke really. Um, a guy called John Hiatt got in touch with me. He'd made a great documentary called Screened Out, which is funnily enough about phone usage and our children.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:49:41 Mm.

Andy Ramage 1:49:41 It got picked up by Congress, got shown in Congress. So I like the ethos behind this particular style of documentary, which was to raise awareness. But John had taken a break from alcohol, and he'd watched my TED Talk, The Limitless Pill, listened to this podcast, a few other podcasts, I think Rich's podcast, and was inspired. Took a break from alcohol. Felt incredible. Then made his next documentary that was all about health and wellness. Got into the editing suite. No one mentioned alcohol. And he's like, "How can this possibly be? Why is no one talking about alcohol?" And these sort of so-called health and wellness gurus got in touch with me to be that voice in the documentary. So we went backwards and forwards. And as part of that conversation, I said, "I think there's a place for a Game Changers style documentary for alcohol-free."

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:50:26 Mm.

Andy Ramage 1:50:26 And John just come back and went, "You are so right." Let's do it.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:50:30 Amazing.

Andy Ramage 1:50:31 So it came from nowhere, um, and really what we're gonna do is make this inspirational piece that's gonna cover off some of the health consequences, but also lift a few of those rocks, which I'm really interested in. Big alcohol's role in advertising, government's role in their relationship-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:50:46 Mm

Andy Ramage 1:50:46 ... with big alcohol. Some of the practices that are going on that people, I think, are unaware of. And, and if I even may use this, 'cause we're actively filming at the moment, if someone's out there, they've got a platform, they're a celebrity, you know, they're an actor, sports star, and you don't drink, and you've had a wonderful experience, do get in touch because I'd love to share more of those stories. We don't share those stories enough.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:51:04 Mm.

Andy Ramage 1:51:04 We historically grew up knowing all the athletes and movie stars that drank alcohol, but we don't know any that don't drink alcohol.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:51:11 Yeah.

Andy Ramage 1:51:11 We need to shine and show a different story. So we're out there looking for support, investment. I have a GoFundMe as well just to kickstart the whole thing, but it's gonna go bigger than that. And really the design is to try and inspire a generation, tran-transform the world's relationship with alcohol. Big aspirations, big goals, but who would've thought, you know, that break 10 years ago would've led to this adventure?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:51:31 Yeah, I love that. I mean, you've got such high energy. You- you're so driven to get this message out there. It's obvious to see the, the impact it's had on you. When I watched that podcast you recently recorded about 10 years alcohol-free, you listed, yes, sleep, consistent early mornings, weight loss, looking younger, more connection, more fun. You also mentioned saving money. How much money do you think people could save if they stopped drinking alcohol?

Andy Ramage 1:52:00 Well, I always joke whenever I'm in a room with a lot of young kids, I'm like, "All right, if I gave you 10,000 pounds, would you stop drinking?" Of course, no hands go up. I'm like, "What if I gave you 50,000 pounds? What if I gave you 200,000 pounds?" A few more hands go up. "What if I gave you 250,000 pounds?" And all the hands go up. I'm like, "Brilliant. You win. Just don't drink." And you'll save that amount of money. I genuinely believe that. Like, for those people, if you look at the compound interest that we spend on alcohol over a lifetime, it's astronomical. I think in the last 10 years I've probably saved close to 50,000 pounds. That's completely nuts when you think about it. And I've been able to reinvest that into self-development, in training, in courses, and I think there's a lot of that going on at the moment. We don't realize the knock on effects of drinking. Not only the alcohol itself, the taxis, the poor performance the day after, all those things.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:52:54 Well, that's it, isn't it? It's not just the cost of that round at the bar. It's the taxi home. It's the extra sugar and fast food and junk you're eating on the way home or the next day 'cause you've got the munchies and, you know, you, you could keep going on and on. It's not just the direct cost of the alcohol, is it? It's the kind of knock-on effects as well.

Andy Ramage 1:53:17 Yeah, exactly. It might be that you don't perform as well at work. You don't make as many sales, therefore you don't get as big a bonus or whatever your setup is.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:53:23 Mm.

Andy Ramage 1:53:23 Is this huge ramifications. The health costs that can spiral out of that as well. It's huge when you look at it that way. So again, as a way to save money. That being said, alcohol-free alternatives are quite expensive, and I think we have to admit that as well and own that as well. They're quite expensive, but I think you're still saving big time.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:53:41 What's your take on alcohol-free alternatives?

Andy Ramage 1:53:44 I love them.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:53:45 Okay.

Andy Ramage 1:53:45 I've got to be honest. I really love them. They really helped me. Like, I felt grown up. It took away a lot of that social pressure. I actually really like the taste now.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:53:53 Okay.

Andy Ramage 1:53:54 Um, so I think they have a huge benefit for, for lots of people, and everyone's different, but for me personally, I, I really enjoy them. I think it, it makes me feel socially more at ease. There's definitely a placebo element to them. And I see it within our app Dry. Uh, maybe we can talk about that at some point.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:54:09 Yeah, yeah. Please tell us about the Dryy app.

Andy Ramage 1:54:10 Um, most people-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:54:12 Is that D-D-R-Y?

Andy Ramage 1:54:13 D-R-Y-Y.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:54:14 D-R-Y-Y. And what is it?

Andy Ramage 1:54:16 So Dryy is an online community, um, with a focal point of an app, which is unbelievable. It looks beautiful. It's aspirational, it's inspirational, full of incredible people. We've got 76-year-olds in there. A guy called Eamonn from Ireland who's transformed his relationship with alcohol. He's buzzing. We've got students in there. You know, we've got 22s to 76s.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:54:35 Love it.

Andy Ramage 1:54:36 It's, it's this beautiful space that people come together. It's totally free, so there's no barrier to entry. Just go to your app store, download it. And the way we've set it up, every single day there is a live feed in there. So someone does a live. So I go live every Tuesday morning at 7:30 AM. So you get all this beautiful live content for free, and there's a bit of a stepping stone for those that want more. There's opportunities to train on challenges, be it 28, 90-day. We call it Get Dry. There's self-development challenges. You can train with me as a coach. So it's a whole space. Merch, meetups. We've got a festival, Dry Fest.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:55:09 My faves.

Andy Ramage 1:55:09 June 22nd in Glastonbury. I think it's a world first. We're really trying to come at it from a completely different angle. That real aspirational, inspirational angle of actually I'm loving my life 'cause I don't drink and I'm proud of it. And I think it's about time we shared that message.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:55:24 Yeah.

Andy Ramage 1:55:25 We've been told one message for the last 100 years that alcohol is fun, cool, sexy, and now we're showing a different message. Alcohol-free is much more fun, much more cooler, and much more sexy-ish.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:55:37 Andy, I love chatting to you. You're so upbeat about this. You're so keen to, to share what you've experienced. You want other people to experience this kind of vitality that you've had, which is frankly magnetic. It's great to be around. To finish off, for that person who is inspired and thinks, "Yeah, you know what? That's it. I do want to change my relationship with alcohol. I don't know where to start." I know you've already shared some of your best advice, but what would you say to that person?

Andy Ramage 1:56:12 I think just start. I know that's ridiculously obvious because the first thing that many people do is look at their diary and go, "Oh, I can't do it this week 'cause I've got the wedding on, I've got the work due, I've got the X, Y, and Z." And actually those social occasions or those obstacles are the reason to start because in getting out the other side of those, you're gonna feel so much power, so much momentum when you do the first social occasion. So I think that's the first bit of advice. Just start. Then join a community. It could be Dry, and obviously I'm biased with that, but there's loads of beautiful communities out there. Find a group of people that identify with what you're going through. They will support you. They will cheer you on. They will inspire you. Go onto the internet. There's so many incredible people on your phone now-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:56:52 Mm-hmm

Andy Ramage 1:56:53 ... in the sober space, in the alcohol-free space, that are sharing their inspiring messages. Come and join me live every day. I'll personally cheer you on. Like, immerse yourself in this world because it will be a solo mission, and I think one thing you all have to remember is that your choice to change is not your partner's, it's not your friend's, it's not your parents', it's your choice. And we have to remember it's a solo mission. And the best thing you can ever do, in my opinion, for your health, your fitness, your vibrancy, your energy, your performance as a parent, in your career, is take a break from alcohol and just show up and shine and see what it's like for you. And if you get some of the results I've been banging on about for the last 10 years, what a discovery that will be. What a win that will be.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:57:32 Mm.

Andy Ramage 1:57:32 And most people never get a chance to discover that 'cause they start in their teens and never stop. So the greatest gift I think you can give yourself and your family is having the courage to start. Find a community that you align with, then show up and go for it.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:57:46 Rousing finale, Andy.

Andy Ramage 1:57:47 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:57:49 Love chatting to you. Love your energy. Love what you're doing. Keep up the great work, mate.

Andy Ramage 1:57:53 Thank you. It's a pleasure, and thank you for sharing this platform.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:57:56 My pleasure. If you enjoyed that conversation, I think you are really going to enjoy this one with an incredible neuroscientist to teach you the truth about alcohol, caffeine, and sugar.

Speaker 1:58:07 One or two drinks one or two times a week is probably fine, but anything above that, it may be detrimental to our brain health and our, our other health.