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Dr Rangan ChatterjeeDr Rangan Chatterjee

Stanford Psychologist Reveals The Most Important Thing To Do When Depressed | Kelly McGonigal

One of the positives I’m seeing during the current lockdown is many people’s renewed appreciation for getting out, active and connected.

Kelly McGonigalguestDr. Rangan Chatterjeehost
Apr 21, 20201h 37mWatch on YouTube

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Transcript

  1. 0:00 – 0:00

    Intro

    1. KM

      [upbeat music]

  2. 0:00 – 0:43

    Movement as engagement with life—and why it matters in depression

    1. KM

      Movement is using your body to engage with life.

    2. RC

      Movement is engaging with life. Stop moving-

    3. KM

      Yeah

    4. RC

      ... and you start to disengage with life.

    5. KM

      So at a very deep level, exercise is good for mental health. You know, for people who have that experience, when you're in it, you don't wanna move. And so here we can be talking about an endorphin rush or the feel better effect, but if you're actually in a depressive episode or you're grieving, it is very possible that your brain has forgotten how to give you an endorphin rush from movement. And what I want so much for people to know is that that is true, and also movement is one of the only things you can do that helps your brain remember how to experience reward and hope. [upbeat music]

  3. 0:43 – 3:28

    Kelly’s background: Stanford lecturer, psychologist, and movement teacher

    1. RC

      So Kelly, welcome to the podcast.

    2. KM

      Thank you so much.

    3. RC

      I have been so excited to get you on the show. Um, I think I first came across your work with your TED Talk.

    4. KM

      Mm-hmm.

    5. RC

      When was that now?

    6. KM

      2013.

    7. RC

      2013, yeah. So I think that's when I first came across you. So what? Almost seven years ago now. Um, and then when I heard you had a new book out, I was super excited. Now, it wasn't the book I expected that I was gonna get from you. Um-

    8. KM

      What did you expect?

    9. RC

      I don't, I, I don't think I expected anything really, but I guess I'm used to your work on stress and willpower. Um, but I've heard you say that this is the book that you've always wanted to write.

    10. KM

      Yeah. It's so funny because, uh, you know, I ha- so I have written a bunch of other books, and my editor said this was the first book that I was really in, um, because movement is so important to me. I feel like it's almost a love letter, and it's the first book I've written where I even, like, am willing to tell stories about myself and, um, I hope that my, my love and my passion comes through. Um, I feel like, you know, I've always written books that, that aim to help some sort of suffering in the world through the lens of psychological science. Um, but this is the book that really, when I think about the one thing that has supported me throughout my life, it's been exercise and movement, and the community I found through it, and the way that it supports my psychological wellbeing. So in a way, this is the book, um, I've always wanted to write because I feel like it's sort of the story of, um, how I've found a way to support my own mental health.

    11. RC

      Yeah. I think you can tell that when you read it. Um, I'm, I've not finished it completely yet, but I love what I've read so far. Uh, before we sort of tap into it, because I think there are so many angles we could take. You've g- it's such a comprehensive book. Uh, just a bit of context. You, you've come down here to LA, where we're currently recording this, but you're heading back to Stanford, aren't you? You're teaching this afternoon.

    12. KM

      Yes.

    13. RC

      So for people who are not familiar with your work, um, you know, you lecture at Stanford.

    14. KM

      Mm-hmm.

    15. RC

      So maybe could you expand a little bit on that?

    16. KM

      Yeah. I have a weird position. So I'm a lecturer at Stanford. I teach in the business school. I also teach, um, through continuing studies. I'm a psychologist by training, a researcher, and uh, so I have this academic side. Um, people who know my, my own scientific research, I've looked at how people can strengthen compassion and empathy and what the benefits of that are. And then I have this whole other side career where I teach movement and dance. So the class that I'm flying back to teach is actually a dance fitness class. Um, and I have been teaching group exercise since I was a graduate student at Stanford. And so I've basically never gave up either side of my work, the academic and the, the movement.

    17. RC

      Yeah. It's pretty cool how you manage to combine all of it together.

    18. KM

      Yeah.

  4. 3:28 – 7:15

    Movement on the road: Peloton, ballet, and cheering marathon finishers

    1. RC

      It does sound like a dream career for many people. Um, talking about movement, obviously you're away from home at the moment, so I think you stayed in LA last night.

    2. KM

      Yes.

    3. RC

      So given that movement is such a big part of your life, what sort of movement have you done since you came to LA?

    4. KM

      Oh my gosh. So this is great. The last 24 hours, first of all, my hotel has a Peloton bike-

    5. RC

      Okay

    6. KM

      ... and I never did Peloton until I started, um, going on book tour. And so many of the people who interviewed me, when we were talking about what's a form of movement that you love or what's a form of movement that makes you feel amazing, so many people were talking about Peloton. So I got to do a ride last night in my hotel, and it was amazing. And I get it. It's like the music completely drives the experience. I also got to take a ballet class this morning, um, right before our interview, and we did a little bit of Swan Lake choreography. I was so in over my head, but, you know, I thought, "I'm here in LA. Why not do a movement form that's out of my comfort zone and, uh, get a little bit of that feeling of, of the grace and the beauty?"

    7. RC

      Yeah. Wow. That's inspiring to see what you've done since, since you got here.

    8. KM

      [laughs]

    9. RC

      Um, if it's-

    10. KM

      What about you? So you've been here a little bit longer, right?

    11. RC

      Well, what about me? So I arrived, I flew on Saturday.

    12. KM

      Yeah.

    13. RC

      So I got to LA on Saturday night. Uh, I didn't sleep very well first night. I think I woke up at about 2:00 AM. Um, but I am actually... Well, how do I phrase this? I'm just on the, of, come off the back of one of my book tours in the UK. And the first interview I gave, no, the second interview I gave was on something called the Chris Evans Breakfast Show. It's a very big and influential show, and we were chatting about the podcast, [laughs] we were chatting about the book. And then right at the end of this half-hour segment, Chris and his team challenged me to do the London Marathon.

    14. KM

      Oh.

    15. RC

      And at that time, I think it was 12 or 14 weeks away, right? So I accepted that challenge on air.

    16. KM

      [laughs]

    17. RC

      You know, there's nothing like being asked in front of-

    18. KM

      Oh

    19. RC

      ... two and a half, 3 million people if you're gonna do something. Um, but then I sort of went into a month or two of just craziness, where I was on the road. I, I had a few family issues to take care of and, and I couldn't train. And I, whenever I tried to run, I couldn't get past 1K without my hamstring going. And so I've been seeing people. I've been seeing two amazing people, Gary Ward and Helen Hall, who are helping me with my biomechanics, and something has unlocked in the last 7 or 10 days. So I got a yesterday and I walked for 15K on the beach. So I didn't, um- You know, I just thought, look, it would help me with jet lag, it'll get me out. And so just between Santa Monica and Venice, I was just sort of walking-

    20. KM

      And did you get to see all the LA marathon runners?

    21. RC

      I saw, I saw a bit of them. I saw a lot of them when they'd finished, actually.

    22. KM

      Yeah. My hotel was right across from the finish line, so part of my joy of movement on this trip was I got to stand outside and cheer on, um, 'cause I got in late, all the people who were finishing at, like, six hours, seven hours.

    23. RC

      Wow.

    24. KM

      And those are, like, the hardcore people 'cause they're the ones out there the longest, like, not the professional athletes. So that was really fun to-

    25. RC

      Did they look exhausted?

    26. KM

      See them. Yes, and what was so great... Okay, so in the, in the book, one of the stories that I tell is about how music can help you power through when, when things are difficult, both in movement and in life. And one of the stories that I loved was a story about a, a runner. He's, like, 76. He runs every New York City marathon, and one of his most memorable moments was he had hit a wall, and someone had leaned out of their apartment window with a boom box playing the theme from Rocky. And literally, I was standing there cheering people on, and you, you see these people. They're actually being supported by the, um, the race staff. So they're people who, like, maybe have gotten injured or sick, and they're, they're already wearing their, their little thing to keep them warm. And they're being sort of walked through the finish line by support staff. And somebody leans out their apartment window with their phone, and they're playing the Rocky theme song-

    27. RC

      Oh, my gosh

    28. KM

      ... to cheer people on. And I was like, "I'm so glad I was here for this."

  5. 7:15 – 12:07

    Why music makes you want to move: motor circuits, dopamine, and “walk-on songs”

    1. RC

      Yeah, I mean, that's incredible. And, and I tell you what, what that reminds me of. So on the plane over on Saturday, so London to LA flights, and, uh, like, towards the end of the flight, I was like, "Okay, like, I just wanna watch something mindless now." So I, I put on the, you know, the, the screen. I was flicking through, and, and there was a film there saying it was Creed II.

    2. KM

      Mm-hmm.

    3. RC

      I thought, "You know what? I don't wanna, I don't want anything intense. I just want a bit of switch off," so I put it on, 'cause I used to love the Rocky films as a kid. And it's really interesting. About halfway through or maybe two-thirds in, you know, before the final fight, um, the Rocky theme tune comes on. Da, da, da-da, da-da, da-da-da, da-da, da-da-da, da-da, da-da, da. You know, and it's-

    4. KM

      Oh, yeah. I, I'm from Philly. I know it [laughs] .

    5. RC

      Hey. And I'm listening, and I'm, I'm, I'm sitting there just watching it feeling tired, and I wanna get up and move.

    6. KM

      Yeah.

    7. RC

      Like, and it does... It's something evocative that it-

    8. KM

      Mm

    9. RC

      ... sort of reminds you of... For me, it reminds me of being a kid or a teenager watching Rocky films, and then you'd see Rocky go and train before the big fight. And so what is going on there? I mean, you mention music and the context of that chap trying to finish the marathon.

    10. KM

      Mm-hmm.

    11. RC

      You've done a bit of movement around music this morning in ballet, and I'm sitting on a train feeling... a plane feeling tired, and I hear the Rocky theme tune, and I wanna get up and move. So what's going on there?

    12. KM

      I know. I'm so glad we're starting with music. Um, so when you listen to music that you enjoy, it activates the motor system of the brain, and it gives you this rush of dopamine and adrenaline and activates the whole motor circuit. It's basically an invitation to move, and it's one of the reasons why people love listening to music because it's, it's as energizing as if you were actually to get up and start moving around. Um, and also, we have all of these emotional associations with music. So music activates the motor system and movement and also our emotional memory system. So any song you listen to that you have these positive associations with is starting to pull those memories, um, you know, out and, and helping you relive them. And I feel like, you know, like, one of the greatest gifts we can give to ourselves is to actually move in pleasurable or meaningful ways to songs that we love so that when we need that extra boost, that you can actually, like, put it on your phone, listen to it, make it, like, a walk-on song so you can walk into a meeting, and you have that embodied memory of, you know, I danced to that song at my wedding, or I trained to that song. Um, like, we all deserve a walk-on song.

    13. RC

      Yeah. And I guess I'm-

    14. KM

      Or a wake-up song if you're on an airplane.

    15. RC

      So should we all move to music? I mean, is that... If music... Uh, I think the way you put it is beautiful, that music is an invitation to move. I think what a, what a lovely take on music. It's an invitation to move. I've heard you say that before, and I really sat with that to think, yeah, it, it really is, isn't it? Because no matter what that music is, it can be fast, it can be slow, but it does something to you. You, you move in a slightly different way when you hear it.

    16. KM

      Yeah. Well, so Oliver Sacks says when we listen to music, we listen with our muscles. And Aristotle said that when you listen to music, the quality of the music enters your soul. And I feel like, like, both of those are evident when you look at what happens in the brain when we listen to music, that it is activating our emotional systems and our movement systems. And, like, the question, so should we all move to music? Um, one of the things, one of the, my favorite stories in the music chapter in the book was, uh, a man who has a young daughter, and he talked about how his daughter loves dance parties. And she's always asking him to dance with her, and she'll pull out her little play phone and be like, "More, more." And he talks about how he'll dance with her in, like, the aisle at Target and play, like, you know, Shake It Off by Taylor Swift, and they'll be dancing in the aisles. And he talks about how, like, the joy that he feels in that moment and the memories that he knows he's going to cherish, and I feel like that's true. You know, there's a reason that, that around the world, every culture puts music and movement at the heart of its most meaningful traditions and celebrations. I mean, we, we dance to come together. We make music in order to empower ourselves. And, uh, I feel like, you know, the entire book, each chapter is focused on a, a sort of a core human capacity to experience joy and how movement helps us access it and even amplify it. So I think, like, you know, it's in human nature to enjoy making music and to enjoy listening to music, and, uh, movement amplifies the joy that we get, whether we are making music or participating in music or, you know, lip-syncing to music. And I think it's just one example of how movement often, like, it taps into something that's a key part of what it means to be human and allows us to, to experience and express that particular joy.

  6. 12:07 – 16:12

    Five minutes of dancing: changing exercise feelings and strengthening relationships

    1. RC

      Yeah, for sure. Um, hearing that story reminds me of, uh, a patient I had. Um, [smacks lips] It was a, well, it was two patients. It was a 16-year-old, uh, girl and a 42-year-old mother who was struggling to lose weight and they, you know, they, they'd come in a few times, and it was really interesting. They seemed to have a bit of... There was a bit of disharmony in their relationship. You could tell she'd reported it to me privately as well. Um, they tried all kinds of things to lose weight, and they weren't really getting anywhere. They're very frustrated. And I noticed that the daughter always had earbuds hanging out when she came in. I think, like, it's mom dragging her in, and I can't remember what T-shirt she had, but it was always of a band.

    2. KM

      Mm-hmm.

    3. RC

      And I thought, "Okay, this is interesting. What if we try and prescribe something?" And I hate the word prescribe in that context, if I'm honest, around movement and music. So I prescribed for them, uh, five minutes of dancing. I said, "Hey, like, maybe when you come back from school, before you do anything, as soon as you guys come home, you dance for five minutes together on whatever tunes you want." And it was incredible because it, it, there was this sort of ripple effect from that. They weren't engaged, had relationship problems. Just those five minutes of dancing together every day very quickly transformed their relationship. They're then dancing for 10 or 15 minutes. It's something they really look forward to. They're bonding. Then they start cooking healthy meals together.

    4. KM

      Mm.

    5. RC

      And it leads to this, you know, ripple effect, this cascade effect.

    6. KM

      Upward spiral.

    7. RC

      Upward spiral, yeah. And that all started with music.

    8. KM

      Can we, like, break this down?

    9. RC

      Please.

    10. KM

      So I love this story because there's so much science behind the brilliance of that prescription. So first of all, we know that when you move to music, it changes how you interpret the physical sensations of movement. So one reason that people think they don't like to exercise, I mean, they don't like it, they don't enjoy it, um, is they don't like the sensations of their heart rate increasing or, you know, sweating, breathing, str- maybe struggling to breathe a little bit. And we know that if you interpret those physical sensations as, "I'm out of shape, I'm too old, I'm... You know, this isn't for me," it creates this actual, like, the negative cascade where then you think, "I don't wanna do this"-

    11. RC

      Yeah

    12. KM

      ... and you have a negative memory of the exercise experience. And research shows that when you have music that you like, music that's empowering, maybe the lyrics motivate you, or, you know, it's someone like Lizzo who is just, like, the embodiment of female power and joy, that it changes how you interpret those sensations. So suddenly you might be thinking, you know, "My heart is pounding," and you start to think, you know, "That's what happens when I'm having fun," or, "This is a sign that I'm getting stronger." And that feeling of sweat starts to feel like evidence of, of expressing your power, um, and, and using your energy, and that actually changes the way people remember the exercise experience too. So if you move to music that you like, you're more likely to remember the experience as being empowering and enjoyable, and you're more likely to do it again. So that's sort of one thing that's great about your prescription. But also, we know that when you move with other people, um, the endorphins and the endocannabinoids that get released, um, they're actually bonding hormones. So people who move with other people tend to like them more and trust them more, and, um, it creates this kind of social connection. It makes it easier to connect with people. It makes it easier to resolve conflict. So, like, if you wanna strengthen a relationship with someone, moving with them is one of the best ways to do that. It just primes your neurochemistry to be able to have an, an easier rapport and connection. And again, like you said, so much of this is an upward spiral. I mean, there's research showing that if you exercise, you have better interactions with other people for the whole next 24 hours, and part of it is brain chemistry, and part of it is how it changes your mindset and how it makes you feel about yourself. But, um, you know, I love this idea that you could take a, a small dose of movement, something that feels accessible and fun and meaningful, and that it could have all of these ripple effects that you described.

  7. 16:12 – 18:49

    Resetting the movement mindset: beyond calories, shame, and “repentance”

    1. RC

      Yeah. And I think making it small and accessible is really key, right? Because, you know, I've been a medical doctor for almost 20 years now, and so... And, and this fundamentally is something I really wanted to talk to you about today is the way we talk about movement in society has conventionally been around, you know, burning off energy, burning off calories.

    2. KM

      Mm.

    3. RC

      Um, it's good for your physical health. I mean, this very-

    4. KM

      Yeah

    5. RC

      ... one-dimensional narrative.

    6. KM

      Yeah. It's punishment for enjoying life. That's how a lot of people think about it. Like, "Oh, I, I indulged, so now I have to repent."

    7. RC

      Y- yeah, you mentioned punishment, but even the, even the, the, the, the, the vernacular around movement, "I'm gonna kill myself in the gym."

    8. KM

      Yeah.

    9. RC

      You know, what does that mean? You know, have we, we've sort of... I don't think we have realized the implications of talking about movement in this way-

    10. KM

      Yeah

    11. RC

      ... has had, because some people will say, "You know, it's just not for me, exercise. It's just not for me, movement." I mean, what would you say to people who say that?

    12. KM

      You know, and, and mindset, you know, influences so much of how we experience something. So I describe movement as using your body to engage with life, and I think of whether you are, you call it movement or you call it exercise, it's really about finding an activity that allows you to engage with life the way that you want to. So maybe you love how it feels when you go for a walk in nature, or you love how it feels when you run and you feel fast and free, and you can sense your own persistence. Um, or you love how it feels to move and flow in Tai Chi or yoga, or have dance parties in your living room with your kid, and that you use your body to engage with life, to express different aspects of your human nature, to connect with other people. And, um, you know, if you're experiencing movement instead as a punishment for something you ate or an investment in your future wellbeing that, that is not connected to something you actually enjoy, um, it just sets people up to, first of all, find an activity that they hate. I mean, if people are obsessed with looking at their watch and seeing, like, these calorie counters or, you know, counting how many steps they've taken, it's very easy to miss how powerful you feel when you lift something heavy or how much fun it is to high-five someone after you do an exercise or, you know, go for a run. Um, you- So I think we need a total mindset reset about what movement is and why we do it so that people, first of all, are more likely to choose something that actually connects them to joy and meaning, and also so that we, we can sort of escape the voices in the head that often come up when you s- come to exercise from a place of shame or fear that's so common.

  8. 18:49 – 23:18

    Fitness trackers and direct experience: experimenting with what works for you

    1. RC

      Yeah, it's really common. Um, I've thought a lot about fitness trackers over the past few years, and my view on them has sort of changed and it, and it does from day to day because-

    2. KM

      Yeah

    3. RC

      ... I, I kinda see them a lit- little bit like blood pressure monitors in the sense that some patients say, "Hey, doctor, shall I buy a blood pressure monitor?" And for some of them it's the best thing in the world because they check it once a week, they use it as a way to, um, you know, nudge them in the right direction. If the blood pressure's going up, they'll say, "Oh, you know what? I need to get back on track with my lifestyle." Whereas other people will buy it and check it two, three times a day, stress out every time-

    4. KM

      [laughs]

    5. RC

      ... there's a little change, and it almost becomes paralyzing. And I'm interested in your view. I guess for me, fitness trackers-

    6. KM

      Mm

    7. RC

      ... can potentially be a very similar thing. I do feel more and more that we have become so obsessed with what's on our wrist or what's on our phone that we've lost connection with what the movement is.

    8. KM

      Yeah.

    9. RC

      Now, I, I totally accept for some people it can be motivating. They're like, "Ah, you know what? I've only got 6,000 steps today. I wanna hit 10,000 a day. That's gonna motivate me to go out." So I think it's about finding the balance somewhere, and I guess for different people the balance is, is somewhat different, but what's your view on these trackers?

    10. KM

      Yeah. So, um, I'm a big fan of you need to conduct an experiment on yourself, so I'm always encouraging people to think about what their goal is and what their values are and like is this something that supports you in doing what, what is important to you. Um, I think fitness trackers are often a, a first start for people. You know, I have a friend-

    11. RC

      Yeah

    12. KM

      ... recently, they're trying to, to motivate someone in the family to move more, so they all got one together so that they could support this one person, and I like that idea of it. Um, there's a story in my book about a woman who wanted to become active after experiencing a devastating loss, and so her husband gave her a Fitbit for Christmas, and she, she said, "Okay, I'm gonna do this. I'm going to embrace life and start moving forward." And that helped her feel like she was making some progress, and then she found a, a running group, and it was actually the community support of the running group that helped her get to the next stage of moving through her grief. But the Fitbit was the first start. So I feel like, you know, for a lot of people it's worth experimenting with, but I, I really agree with this idea that if you get obsessed with metrics you might not be paying, uh, attention to your direct experience. And I think paying attention to your direct experience gives you so much feedback about, you know, for example, when you move, do you feel better afterwards?

    13. RC

      Yeah.

    14. KM

      D- that, like, that is a really great metric that your, your counter's not gonna be able to tell you. But when you've found the ideal form of movement for you, you shouldn't have to recover psychologically from it. You should feel set up to walk into your home or your next meeting with a sense of, "I feel more energized, I feel more optimistic. I'm like a, a best version of myself." And, uh, you know, there's no fitness tracker that's gonna tell you that, but you can check in with how you feel.

    15. RC

      Yeah, it's almost as if at the end of the run or the race or whatever, like, there's such an obsession with, okay, you know, what, what happened? What was my heart rate? What was this? We're actually in that moment where we could be tapping into our hearts and how we're feeling, we can be distracted by these other metrics that frankly we can check later as well. And maybe, maybe the take home might be for some of us is when we finish that particular movement, maybe sit with it for a minute or two. Just, just, just how do you feel?

    16. KM

      Yeah.

    17. RC

      You can check the metrics later if that's something that-

    18. KM

      Yeah

    19. RC

      ... means a lot to you, but maybe don't do it straight away potentially. Um, you know, I, I never like telling people what they should be doing. It's about just having hopefully idea- you know, sharing ideas that may or may not resonate.

    20. KM

      Yeah.

    21. RC

      Um-

    22. KM

      Is it, is it helping you experience movement in a way that you enjoy, and is it helping you stay active? And, you know, people, e- everything, I feel like everything about the science is an experiment that you conduct on yourself. I mean, actually, the research suggests that probably trackers aren't that effective at-

    23. RC

      Yeah

    24. KM

      ... at motivating people, but it, it does for some people.

    25. RC

      It does for some.

    26. KM

      It really does.

    27. RC

      But that's inherently the problem, I wouldn't say the problem, but that is what we see with research all the time-

    28. KM

      Yeah

    29. RC

      ... right, isn't it? We look at these, these gross, um, you know, conclusions, these simplifications.

    30. KM

      Yeah. And it's always an average, and there's always-

  9. 23:18 – 29:22

    Movement as social medicine: Parkrun, casual belonging, and “we agency”

    1. RC

      Yeah. You mentioned a running group. Have you heard of something called Parkrun?

    2. KM

      Yes, of course.

    3. RC

      Is it big here in the States?

    4. KM

      Uh, I, you know, I don't know because I, so many of the people... So I write about GoodGym, um-

    5. RC

      Yeah

    6. KM

      ... in the book, and a lot of people who are participants in GoodGym also are big fans of Parkrun, so that's how I've heard it come up quite a bit from people who are running in GoodGym.

    7. RC

      Pa- Parkrun is, um, it's almost like an epidemic in the UK at the moment.

    8. KM

      [laughs]

    9. RC

      It's, it's a, it's a good epidemic. Um, it's growing rapidly, and I actually interviewed the CEO of Parkrun on this podcast maybe a year ago, and what was really interesting is that he said, he said, "Rangan, the thing about Parkrun is that Parkrun is a social intervention- masquerading as a running event.

    10. KM

      I know. I love it. I feel the same way about the classes that I teach, that people show up thinking they're showing up for a workout, and then they have a positive e- experience of belonging and connection. Um, and as I've, I've heard from people who are part of these running groups too, that they can become a real source of social support. I mean, you know, there's, there's so many important dimensions of social community. There are your close relationships, you know, your partnerships in life, your family. But it's so important to have social relationships that are a little bit casual, but where you know you can show up and belong, where people are happy to see you, and when you're having a bad day, they give you, you know, just that level of support where it's okay to be who you are, and there are people who care. And it's amazing how much movement facilitates that level of connection, um, where you're sort of allowed to be who you are. Um, when things are difficult, people support you in this kind of easy way that we sometimes don't find in our close relationships, where, you know, things get very complicated. Um, and so, you know, I think that Parkrun is a great example of that. GoodGym is a great example of that. And, um, you know, here in the US you see that a lot with CrossFit gyms and, and, um, group exercise classes.

    11. RC

      Yeah. Pa- Parkrun has transformed my weekends and my family's weekends. Um, you know, my, my son first noticed some runners in the local park maybe three, four years back, said, "Daddy, what are they doing?" You know, "Why have they all got these things on?" and stuff. And, you know, that's how we got into Parkrun, and we started as, in the UK on Saturdays is the adult Parkrun, which is a 5K run, and on the Sundays in some areas they have a kids Parkrun, which is a 2K run. So I think since my son was five we've been doing the 2K run, which, you know-

    12. KM

      Mm-hmm

    13. RC

      ... they would walk at first, and they run, but now he does the adult one every Saturday. Uh, even on Saturday, I think he did it while I was flying. He actually does it, you know, with, with someone else, 'cause under the age of 11 you can't do it without a responsible adult with you.

    14. KM

      Mm-hmm.

    15. RC

      But what it's done is not only that fitness, it's, it helps us feel part of the local community, right? And I know I've heard you on a previous podcast, you mentioned values, and you mentioned one of your values has been recently, I think, to engage with your local community. Now, there's many ways you can engage with the local community, but movement is such a beautiful way to do it. Because I've noticed with my kids, because they see the same people every week, they bump into the same people in the supermarkets, there's just... It helps you feel that, you know, in this increasingly disconnected and isolated world-

    16. KM

      Yeah

    17. RC

      ... it brings people together. And, you know, one of the theses, one of, one of the ideas, one of the central ideas in your book that I'm getting as I read it is this idea that moving together with other people helps us to cooperate-

    18. KM

      Yeah

    19. RC

      ... and feel part of that. And that's incredible. That's a different narrative on movement than what we're conventionally being told.

    20. KM

      I know, and it's, it's such a, a needed medicine in our world right now, that, that kind of belonging and community. You know, I think one of the reasons why movement and things like Parkrun or things like, like my dance classes, um, help people experience that is movement often asks us to be the best version of ourselves, and also, like, good, good friends to other human beings. So, you know, you go for a run, and it's just so natural to cheer other people on. Like, if you finish first, to support other people in finishing. It's so natural to receive that support. It's, like, an easier place to allow yourself to be congratulated and supported. We get to practice these kind of rituals of just, like, easy human interdependence, um, which is can be sometimes a little bit different than sometimes team sports. I know there's, in the US there's a lot of concern about people getting, like, so competitive with it and it bringing out maybe the worst side of, of parents or kids. But in things like runs and, you know, like Ninja Warrior training and all these other places where, where people are experiencing connection, it's because, like, you're asked to do things that are a little bit hard, and then when you do it, people, people congratulate you and see your strength. And you get to do that for others. And there's this kind of bigger than self effort and bigger than self joy that people experience that is, uh, some psychologists call it a sense of we agency. You know, like you get together and you're doing something, and you experience a sense of self that literally transcends, like, the, the borders of your skin and your, your body. You feel connected to almost like a community is like an organism in itself. I mean, it's such... Like, we could get into the neuroscience of this, but literally if you're running in a pack or you're in a dance class and you're moving in sync with other people, your brain starts to expand its sense of awareness so that you literally can... Like, the people you see running in stride with you or the people you see moving in a dance class with you, your brain is like, "That's happening at the same time that my brain is saying run or stretch your arm." And it just starts to assume I'm part of something bigger, an organism that's all moving as one. And it creates this, this amazing sense of self-transcendence.

  10. 29:22 – 34:57

    Science and spirituality—and why intensity can matter

    1. RC

      It's, it's incredible that, you know, you're, you're a trained scientist, and we, we can, and we will go into the neuroscience and what's going on when we move, but there's another narrative at play here, isn't there? There's an almost non-scientific, almost spiritual narrative.

    2. KM

      Yeah.

    3. RC

      And, and I find that incredibly fascinating, the, the science and the spirituality together, because I think we all know that for, for people who do move... You know, w- before we started you were saying that this is a, a love letter, isn't it?

    4. KM

      Mm-hmm.

    5. RC

      This, your book. And it's gonna help people who have experienced joy and improvements to their mental health when they move. It's gonna help them go, "Yeah, this is why it happens." And, you know, I feel that as well. But- There's ... You know, I spoke to someone called Sanjay Rawal on, um, on, on this podcast. In fact, last time I was in LA, I, I interviewed him here. Um, I think you'd love that podcast actually. It's ... He, he, he was the director on a film called Thirty One Hundreds where it's this race in New York, right? Central New York where they run-

    6. KM

      Oh, yes. I think the New Yorker wrote an article about this.

    7. RC

      Yeah.

    8. KM

      Is that ... Yeah, okay, yes. I'm familiar with this.

    9. RC

      Yeah. I mean, it was just incredible. And these guys move round like a one-mile block-

    10. KM

      Yeah

    11. RC

      ... in New York City, and they do it for about 50, 60 days. They're running, like, over a marathon a day.

    12. KM

      Mm-hmm.

    13. RC

      And it, and it's just incredible. But it's because it's about, it is about self-transcendence. It's about, it's about movement, I think, as a way of bringing people together, um, movement as a way of, you know, becoming greater than your individuality. And I, I sort of feel ... I don't know. Is this why movements and running and endurance events, why they're, they're growing and they're becoming more and more popular all around the world? Are, have we become a disconnected, isolated society where actually we are discovering more and more now that when we push ourselves outside our comfort zone and we do, let's say, an endurance event, or we go out and challenge our bodies, it's actually having benefits for us far beyond the physical benefits, but there's mental and emotional benefits as well?

    14. KM

      Absolutely. You know, so ... Oh gosh, there's so much I wanna say about this. Let me just backtrack for a second. So you mentioned I'm a scientist, and one of the things that I, I wanna communicate is that for me, science and spirituality are not in opposition. Um, so if you were to look at my early work, I did a lot of work looking at yoga and, and my research on meditation and sort of what's happening in your body and brain, and what the benefits of that are. And I feel like, you know, it's not that we need science to prove things that we can directly experience, um, but sometimes the science can also help us feel that sense of awe and wonder. Like, when I understand that my muscles are sending proteins into my bloodstream that act to give my brain hope when they cross the blood-brain barrier, I experience a sense of awe and wonder that actually feels almost spiritual. So I feel like one of the, one of my goals is actually to help people, um, to have almost like a religious experience around the neuroscience too. That that's ... It's a phenomenal, um, what humans are capable of. But so this idea that, that maybe people are experiencing in their current state of isolation or alienation and despair, um, the need to come together to move or to do these ultra-endurance events, um, I think that's definitely true. And one of the things that I didn't realize until I started talking to so many people, um, is that intensity actually matters. So one of the things that you will hear when people are being encouraged to exercise initially is you only have to do a minute. Like, and it's true. There's, like, no dose that's too small to get physical and mental health benefits. You could do as close to nothing, and a- as soon as you take a breath, as soon as you take a, you know, single squat, everything is good for you. Um, but there does seem to be, like, a dose response. And for people who are dealing with mental health challenges, people who, um, are dealing with a, a sense of, of isolation, um, sometimes doing things that are really hard seems to kick into gear what's happening in your brain and what happens in your sense of self and your ability to experience transcendence that you can experience while doing a, a marathon or an ultramarathon that maybe you're not going to experience when you first take that, that walk around the block. Um, and I think that was a theme that really was revealed to me in so many stories of people who have these amazing spiritual experiences, whether they're running an ultramarathon or, um, you know, hiking in nature or the first time they-

    15. RC

      Yeah

    16. KM

      ... you know, powerlift. You know, there was one woman, uh, in the book who had a personal best in a powerlift. And you think like, that's, that's hard. And she sensed her strength in such an amazing way. This was someone who was dealing with severe depression, and she decided not to take her own life. She had a plan to take her own life, and she decided she wanted to live because of that kind of spiritual and emotional experience of literally sensing a strength-

    17. RC

      Mm

    18. KM

      ... in herself she didn't know she had. And, um, so one of the things that I'm also, it's one of the messages I'm trying to give people is don't be afraid of going beyond what you think you're capable of if there's any part of you ... So so many people I talked to for this book, they're like, "Ah, so the good news is we don't have to run a marathon. Like you say, three minutes of exercise can boost your mood." Yes, that is definitely true, and also, you might wanna run a marathon.

    19. RC

      Yeah.

    20. KM

      You might even wanna run an ultramarathon to have these transcendent experiences, and that's also an option.

  11. 34:57 – 37:43

    Starting from where you are: one song, one hallway, one reachable milestone

    1. RC

      Yeah. It's ... There's so much about movement and how we talk about it, because some people will be listening and they'll be thinking, some people will be running while they're listening to this-

    2. KM

      Yeah, yeah

    3. RC

      ... right? And be going, "Yeah, this is why I run. This is incredible. You know, this is what I feel like after my run." But there'll also be someone who might be listening to this while slumped on their sofa in the evening-

    4. KM

      Mm-hmm

    5. RC

      ... and they hear the words ultramarathon and they're thinking, "That, that just doesn't connect with me and my life."

    6. KM

      Yeah.

    7. RC

      Like, "I am busy. I work two jobs. I'm exhausted. I come home and I just wanna sit in front of the TV and unwind 'cause life is tough." So to that person who struggles to even go for a 20-minute walk every day-

    8. KM

      Yeah

    9. RC

      ... what would you say to that person?

    10. KM

      Well, so first of all, I often will tell people, pick a song you love because of the power of music, and then do any sort of movement that works for your body in this moment to the duration of a song you love or a song that reminds you of someone that you love. And you do whatever movement feels accessible and positive in this moment. And you know, people will be like, "Well, what ... Like, what do you mean? Like, do I have to do, like, exercises?" You know what? Most people can figure out how to move their bodies in ways that work for them in that moment.

    11. RC

      Yeah.

    12. KM

      So it could be you stand up and stretch. It could be that you just play. Maybe you shadow box. I mean, you know, the body has an intelligence. Maybe the ... So somebody who, who didn't actually make it into the book, but someone who, um, w- Someone's story that I was really moved by was someone who literally had, had trouble standing because of his health challenges, and he worked up to being able to walk the hallway of his apartment, and that was a big milestone. And then he walked... He worked his way up to being able to leave his apartment and walk around the block. Thing is, is, you know, there are every milest- there's always a milestone that's within reach, and you can move with whatever parts of your body still move. So, you know, in the book, I'm visited dance classes for people with Parkinson's disease, um, a gym for people with severe disabilities and neurological disorders. Um, no matter what is present in your body right now, I'm also someone who deals with chronic pain, so I understand that there's a lot of, there can be a lot of things going on inside of you, whether it's depression or grief or anxiety or pain, that makes movement feel intimidating. And a lot of this is about self-trust, that you don't need to listen to somebody else say you have to do a minimum of 20 minutes or a minimum of an hour, or it has to be this hard. That if you set the intention to move your body with gratitude for having connection to life, that often people can innovate their own early workouts, and then you can go find a community that supports you if that's of interest to you.

  12. 37:43 – 56:33

    Making movement part of life: beyond guidelines, and connecting movement to what you love

    1. RC

      Yeah. Yeah, Kelly, I love that. I mean, there's so much of what you say, so much of what you write about that, that deeply, deeply connects with me, um, which I'm so [laughs] excited to be talking to you. Um, that we've become... You know, I, I mentioned I didn't like the word prescription before in this context, and I don't. And, you know, even the way we set up public health guidelines. I get it, right? I understand we have to give, um, broad recommendations to the population. You must do 30 minutes of minimum, some, you know, moderate-

    2. KM

      Do we though, even? Isn't it funny? Like, everyone, they keep changing the recommen-

    3. RC

      Yeah

    4. KM

      I've been a fitness professional for 20 years. The recommendations are always changing, and it seems like the recommendations, in part it's based on research, and part it's like, "Oh my gosh, what can we get people to actually do? Let's, like, change the recommendations. Maybe they'll do it if, if they know they only have-"

    5. RC

      Yeah

    6. KM

      ... to do it in 5 to 10 minute increments, and it doesn't have to be all at once. Maybe then they'll do it."

    7. RC

      Oh, and maybe-

    8. KM

      And it's like, you know, I don't know that it's helping

    9. RC

      ... yeah, maybe fundamentally the gui- maybe, like, as-

    10. KM

      Guideline is move

    11. RC

      As-

    12. KM

      That's it.

    13. RC

      Yeah.

    14. KM

      Whatever you can do. Whatever you're willing to do.

    15. RC

      Yeah. And as controversial as this potentially is, maybe guidelines maybe might be part of the problem because we have making it too prescriptive, too, um, too didactic that this is what we, the body, the public health body or the government say you should be doing each day, right? And fundamentally, A, I don't think anyone likes to be told what to do long term.

    16. KM

      No. [laughs]

    17. RC

      You know? Um, but B, I really love what you said, like, when I asked you what will you say to that person who, who doesn't wanna move or is, thinks it's not for them. Everyone likes move- there's always a song that somebody likes on some level, right?

    18. KM

      Yeah.

    19. RC

      It may not be your taste or it may not be my taste.

    20. KM

      And if it's not music, it might be nature, right? So there's so many movement... So the other thing I, I usually start with a song, but there's some people who don't love to mu- move to music. So think about something that you already love, and then think of an activity that allows you to do that. So, you know, if you love animals and maybe you don't have a pet, you can't have a pet because of where you live or your circumstances. Do you know how many animal shelters will let you volunteer to take a dog for a walk or a run? Um, like, maybe there's a person you wanna spend time with. Maybe they love an activity, and, like, you could choose to do it with them. Do you know how much that strengthens a relationship when you, when you endorse an activity that someone else loves and they feel like it's their best self, and you're like, "Okay, I'll go to that yoga class with you"? Um, there's a lot of ways to think about who and what you already enjoy, and, uh, I think that rather than thinking of durations and intensities, 30 minutes, must be moderate, people don't even know what that means. I think that we should view movement as being as essential to human survival as eating and sleeping. You don't say, "I'll do it, like, once on the weekend." It's part of how you live your life. And, um, if, if you can find ways to make it part of your life so that it's not a chore, it's an activity you love, so maybe it's part of your recreation or it's part of how you get about your life. You run errands by cycling or walking. Or it's how you connect with people in your life. If you're gonna spend 20 minutes with your partner or with your kid, why not make that a movement since we know that the neurochemistry of movement helps us bond and connect with others?

    21. RC

      Yeah.

    22. KM

      And I really think this idea that it's something that you're, like, shoving into your life that's divorced from your life is one of the reasons people don't actually do it.

    23. RC

      Yeah. Doing it with other people I think is, is really fascinating 'cause, you know, I hear that and I reflect on my own circumstances and, and what I have chosen to do with my family. So, uh, if I take my kids, for example, uh, I do park running with my son, and it's one of the favorite things I do every week 'cause we go out together and, like, you know, you know, we, we share that experience together and then, n- you know, we walk back afterwards and we're chatting and it's... You know, I know 10, 15 years down the line, I'll look back on these things with real fond memories. You know, it's-

    24. KM

      Yeah

    25. RC

      ... it's a fun thing that we do together.

    26. KM

      I have a fond memory of doing Sweatin' to the Oldies in my living room with my mom.

    27. RC

      Yeah.

    28. KM

      Um, and it was so funny because that was the only workout video she would do with me because it was, um, songs from her youth.

    29. RC

      Yeah.

    30. KM

      But I, you know, I cherish that memory.

  13. 56:33 – 1:02:42

    From gym-class trauma to better school movement culture

    1. KM

      Yes. So I'm sure now, if I were growing up now and I was the child I was then, somebody would've thought to, like, send me to therapy. But growing up, you know, I was born in the '70s. Growing up, late '70s, '80s, um, kids weren't going to therapy, at least not where I lived.

    2. RC

      [laughs]

    3. KM

      Nobody was being prescribed mental health drugs. So it was sort of left to me to figure out what to do with a temperament. I mean, from the time I was out of the womb, I was basically scared, anxious, fearful. Um, you know, there was nothing to explain it except this is how my brain worked from the time I was born. And also, I was not an athlete. So one thing I've, I've been, um, saying lately, which is surprising people who know me now, I actually was put in remedial gym class 'cause I was so uncoordinated and slow. There were like two of us who were pulled out of our normal class because we c- like just couldn't keep up. We couldn't-

    4. RC

      Oh

    5. KM

      ... like I can't catch a ball. It was, it was, you know, humiliating actually at the time.

    6. RC

      Yeah.

    7. KM

      And when I was seven or eight, you know, there was this wave of aerobics and calisthenics, and I discovered moving at home because my mom would go to these garage sales and buy workout tapes and never do them. She was like, "Oh, I'm gonna become an exerciser," and she never did, but we would have these VHS tapes at home. And so I started doing calisthenics and aerobics at home, and it was a totally different form of movement, so nobody was throwing things at me. Nobody was timing how fast I could go. It was me keeping beat with music and other people's bodies. And like I fell in love with Jazzercize, and, uh, it was the first time I didn't feel like my body was this, like, embarrassing burden that I was dragging around, unable to do the things that other kids could do. And then over, like, years, you know, started when I was seven or eight, um, realizing how much it helped me deal with stress and anxiety.

    8. RC

      Yeah.

    9. KM

      But I needed to find the movement that I could do too, and, like, we're not all natural-born runners. We're not all natural-born, um, athletes. But I do believe that there's something in everyone that can be c- uh, captured, tapped into by some form of movement.

    10. RC

      There's quite a few things, Kelly, I wanna pick up on there. Um, you mentioned something was quite humiliating, so at a young age. You know, and I'm just trying to imagine, you know, you're the kid who, let's say you're not getting put, you're not getting picked for the team because you're always the last one to get picked, or you're saying that you and a f- and a, and somebody else got pulled out of class 'cause you're not coordinate enough to continue-

    11. KM

      I know

    12. RC

      ... with the rest of your peers. That is, that is torture at that age, you know, to feel... A- and I guess what I'm getting at is is there a difference between men and women in, in this? Um, we've, we've already mentioned the societal narrative around movement and how, you know, if you can't do what your peers can do and you're, you feel humiliated and you're not part of that group, you, you might change your relationship with movement for the rest of your life.

    13. KM

      Yes. There is research on this. Now, so the research now is looking at, you know, people like our age and older, many of whom had traumatic experiences in gym class or PE. I don't know what it's like in the UK now, but in the US actually it's not even required. There, there are schools now where you don't necessarily have to even take gym or PE, um-

    14. RC

      So that you're not humiliated?

    15. KM

      No, [laughs] just because, um, there's not funding.

    16. RC

      Right.

    17. KM

      Just like we don't have art and music class everywhere also now. Um, but I think there's also, there's a big shift right now in trying to create less humiliating and traumatizing experiences because this research shows that if you were picked last, if you have a memory of being shamed because of your body or any other reason that you didn't fit in, there's lots of reasons that, that kids have been humiliated in sports or gym classes, um, that it makes you, uh, want to avoid movement and exercise for the rest of your life. Um-

    18. RC

      So what sh- based on that, if you were to give advice to schools, there's a lot of schools, head teachers and, and, and teachers who listen to this podcast. What, based upon that research then, have you got any advice for them in terms of how they should frame movement and talk about it and manage it at schools? 'Cause you don't wanna, you don't wanna shape the, these kids the rest of their life. You don't wanna alter their relationship with movement negatively if you can help it.

    19. KM

      I mean s- and there are a lot of people doing this work, by the way, I should say, a lot of people trying to improve that-

    20. RC

      Yeah

    21. KM

      ... that gym class experience. One thing is autonomy, that people should have choices to identify movements that help them, you know, reduce stress and feel better and connect with others. You know, the most positive experiences I ever had in gym class was, uh, when we were- We were given permission to, like, just walk around and talk to our friends. That was... I got more activity doing that than when I was hiding on a field being like, "Cover me," like, "I hope the ball doesn't come to me 'cause I don't know how to play the sport, and I don't wanna get hurt."

    22. RC

      Yeah.

    23. KM

      Um, uh, you know, a weightlifting, like, circuit, to be able to do it on your own and, and choose what you do and how you do it, um, you know, th- so to give people a sense of autonomy and to allow people to connect. And the other positive experience I had, for whatever reason, one year, my last year in high school, the gym i- class instructors decided to allow you to choose into what they called competitive or non-competitive, and we were literally-

    24. RC

      Hmm

    25. KM

      ... put in different rooms. They, they, like, put the binders up, like, to close the rooms, and if you, if you opted into non-competitive, everyone was agreeing, "We all aren't any good at this, and we don't care, and we're gonna find a way to make it fun." And I realized that I could hit a volleyball for the first time in my life because I wasn't, like, hiding in the back with the competitive-

    26. RC

      Yeah

    27. KM

      ... players being like, "Don't let her touch the ball. She's gonna drop it." And it was such an amazing experience because none of us cared, and so we were able to play in a different way. Um, so I, I just think giving people choice, letting people opt into, "Are you the athlete who wants to use this time to compete and get better and train, or do you wanna just, like, have fun with-

    28. RC

      Yeah

    29. KM

      ... your friends, or do you wanna be by yourself?" Could you let kids listen to music on their headphones and strength train and have that time for themselves? Um-

    30. RC

      Yeah

  14. 1:02:42 – 1:07:03

    Women, objectification, and designing welcoming movement environments

    1. RC

      The reason I'm asking about men and women is because there is... I, I can't remember the exact name. I think the BBC in the UK have a movement like This Girl Can. I, you know-

    2. KM

      Oh, yes, I've seen that.

    3. RC

      Yeah, some... There's some videos. So I, and I think there's-

    4. KM

      I think Australia has that, too.

    5. RC

      Yeah, it's an awareness... And, and again, I don't know the exact, um, roots of this, so my interpretation of this is that there is a lot of people saying that women, that girls, as they get older, don't particularly, you know... and this is a gross generalization, are maybe too self-conscious to move. They're not moving enough, and it's a, it's a movement to try and encourage more girls, more women to get moving.

    6. KM

      Yeah.

    7. RC

      Now, I sus- I, I think they're targeting this at women because it seems to be more of an issue with women than guys. Has any of your research come across anything like that, and do you have any views on why that might be?

    8. KM

      So, a- and this, you especially see this, um, during adolescence and young adulthood when women experience their bodies being objectified-

    9. RC

      Yeah

    10. KM

      ... so much for the first time. You know, I think of one of my friend's daughters who stopped going for a run. Um, she loved running, and all of a sudden she hit adolescence, and she started getting catcalls, and she didn't feel safe, and she stopped running.

    11. RC

      Yeah.

    12. KM

      Um, so I think that part of it is suddenly you realize that everyone has an opinion about your body. You go to the gym, and people will im- you know, even praise feels, can feel quite threatening and unwanted.

    13. RC

      Hmm.

    14. KM

      Or you'll get negative comments from people, and that sense of suddenly your body is an object that everyone is evaluating is, I think, one of the things that keeps women from participating-

    15. RC

      Yeah

    16. KM

      ... in all sorts of activities. There, there definitely is a cultural movement, though, t- for women to embrace their strength, embrace their power, embrace their, their inner athlete or dancer, and to, to move in any way that feels good. Um, and I think that, um, one of the things I often will talk to fitness professionals about is how important it is to design environments and communities so that if you're walking in for the first time, you understand that you are welcomed and celebrated and not immediately objectified by, like, you know, let's take your before picture or, you know, let's take your measurements or-

    17. RC

      Yeah

    18. KM

      ... the, the kinda things that can put people in that mindset of, "Oh, right, my body is an object that's being evaluated," as opposed to, "This is an opportunity to experience my own strength."

    19. RC

      Yeah. I, I guess the more we talk and the more I think about what you're saying, it's very hard not to shake off this idea that ultimately movement is very personal.

    20. KM

      Mm-hmm.

    21. RC

      And we cannot be, and it's not ideal to be prescribing the same form of movement to everyone, that ultimately we've all gotta figure out-

    22. KM

      Yeah

    23. RC

      ... that, yes, it's a fundamental human, uh, quality... not quali- quality is the wrong word. It's a, it's a... It is what it means to be human, is, is, is to move, right? And therefore, if we haven't found that type of movement yet that we love, maybe we need to go on that search for-

    24. KM

      Yeah

    25. RC

      ... that type of movement that we love.

    26. KM

      And trust that it could actually be meaningful. I feel like so often people look for the most convenient form of exercise. Like, I think there's a treadmill somewhere in my office building, and I'll-

    27. RC

      Yeah

    28. KM

      ... go and put in my time. But, like, I sometimes ask people, like, if, if someone were to send you a video, you know, on YouTube, what's the video of movement that you would actually watch and be inspired by? Do you wanna see people run an obstacle course? Do you wanna see people cross a finish line? Do you wanna watch that choreography video? Um, what is it that, that lights you up when you see other people do it? And maybe even there's a voice in your head that says, "I could never do that."

    29. RC

      Yeah.

    30. KM

      Like, that's the activity to move toward because it can change how you feel about yourself and what you believe is possible for your future. And, um, and again, to experiment and to listen to your direct feedback and to, to follow any thread of joy. I often will tell people who come to my classes for the first time, like, if you have a moment in this class where you are like, "Oh, I see what this could be," like, then this class is for you, and come back. Because any movement form... This was so great. Movement, movement is like a, it's a mastery and growth experience. We will pretty much always get better at it, and we will always enjoy it-

  15. 1:07:03 – 1:27:14

    Flow, the runner’s high, and “hope molecules”: what movement changes in the brain

    1. RC

      You mentioned that people often do the kind of movements that they just have access to. So there's a treadmill on the block, and it's go and put in my time. Now, isn't that an interesting phrase, put in my time?

    2. KM

      Yeah.

    3. RC

      Because- When I'm traveling, uh, I don't really go to gyms much. It's just, A, I don't really have time, and I've found ways to move my body that doesn't require me to go to a gym. Um, but it's, sometimes I'm in hotels and I will, you know, if I'm up early, I'll go to the hotel gym just to see what's going on and maybe lift some weights, do something. And it's really interesting. You often see people in there who they look as though they're trying to block out the fact that they're moving. It looks as though, "This is a tortuous, uh, process for me. Someone's told me or I feel I have to be on this treadmill for an hour, so I'm gonna do everything I can to numb that experience, whether it's I read the newspaper, I watch the news, watch Netflix." Now, look, I am not being critical here. I'm just saying what I observe. And I guess sometimes we feel we need to block out the movements that, like, it, we feel we have to move, but we hate it, so we block it out. Now, I'm wondering, is there any research to show that there's a difference? Let's say you're on the treadmill and you're engaged with that and you are feeling, you know, how you feel, you know, your limbs are moving-

    4. KM

      Mm-hmm

    5. RC

      ... and you know how, you, you know, what's going on in your brain and you're sort of processing your emotions versus blocking it off completely so you're numbing that experience. Does that movement do something different from the body in those two different examples?

    6. KM

      Yeah. So, um, if you are look- so there's such a thing as positive dissociation during exercise, and for some people, it's actually really important. So one of the things we know is that your brain changes when you go from being inactive to active, that it changes in ways that makes movement not only easier, but more pleasurable. So when people first start, start to exercise, it often is an aversive experience.

    7. RC

      Mm.

    8. KM

      It doesn't stay that way for most people, but you, maybe you have to go six weeks of, of doing regular activity for your brain to start to really reward you for it. So in that time, positive dissociation can be really helpful. That's different than, like, watching the news and getting angry or scrolling through and answering emails. That's where something like music can come into play or, you know, watching, uh, something really exciting on Netflix. And there's research suggesting that if you can combine movement with something you love that is engaging, that it can actually help you stick to, to movement, have a more positive memory of it. But ultimately, um, if you can experience a state of flow in movement-

    9. RC

      Yeah

    10. KM

      ... that's more rewarding for most people, and it can, it can take some time to find that. But that requires paying some attention to what you're feeling in your body, using it as information to guide your effort, um, enjoying sensations of feedback from your muscles and your joints and your heart that tell you, you know, "I'm alive and I'm doing this, and this is how it feels to lift something heavy or to exert myself in this way." And, and often, like, that's how you know you've found the right workout for you, where you can find a flow in it-

    11. RC

      Yeah

    12. KM

      ... where you don't feel like you need to distract yourself from it.

    13. RC

      Yeah.

    14. KM

      And you can find a flow in anything. Like, like it can be, there's no, it's not like you can only find it in some meditate, you know, traditionally meditative experience like yoga or tai chi. People find their flow in all sorts of movement forms. Um, there's so much of it that's personality and so much about what your body kind of was built for. You know, I talked to a lot of people who told me they thought they hated exercise until they found, and then fill in the blank, and maybe it was rowing or swimming. Like, some people need to get in the water, and they have a totally different experience of movement in their bodies.

    15. RC

      Yeah.

    16. KM

      Some people needed to get outdoors, and because of the way that nature changes your, your brain activity and your mood, suddenly they can find a flow walking or jogging outdoors that they could never find on a treadmill. And again, for me, it's music. I- anything can become enjoyable if I have the right playlist.

    17. RC

      We've used the terms movement and exercise a lot during this conversation so far. Can we use those terms interchangeably, or are they actually different things?

    18. KM

      They do mean different things technically. I love the word exercise. I'm not scared of it. So movement is using your body to engage with life. It's almost everything, right? We talked about it. Me talking right now is technically movement. Um, exercise is often defined as moving your body for the purpose of the activity that you're doing. I'm running because I want to run, not because someone is chasing me. I am dancing because I want to dance, not because someone is paying me to perform on a stage, right? I'm lifting heavy things because I want to lift heavy things, not because I'm moving from one apartment to another and I have to lift heavy things. That's what exercise is. It's movement that you are choosing to do for its own sake because of its meaning, its pleasure, or its, you know, benefits to you. So I think too many people define exercise as forcing yourself to do movement you don't wanna do.

    19. RC

      Yeah.

    20. KM

      And, like, that's not what it is.

    21. RC

      Yeah, by that definition-

    22. KM

      [laughs]

    23. RC

      ... exercise is not a helpful term, but by your definition-

    24. KM

      Yeah

    25. RC

      ... it can be a very helpful term.

    26. KM

      Yeah.

    27. RC

      Do different forms of movement do different things? And what I mean by that is we've got in the common vernacular the, a term the runner's high.

    28. KM

      Mm-hmm.

    29. RC

      Right? So I know you've written about this. I, I'd love to expand a bit on what that runner's high is and why everyone might not feel it. Um, but also, you know, I do like to run, uh, but I also sometimes like to lift heavy weights.

    30. KM

      Yeah.

  16. 1:27:14 – 1:37:04

    Compassion and movement, plus practical takeaways: resets, playlists, and outdoors

    1. RC

      Yeah. Incredible. Really, really incredible. Kelly, I know you, you do have to get a flight shortly. Uh, we have a bit of time, and there's no way I could have a conversation with you and not talk about compassion.

    2. KM

      Oh, yes.

    3. RC

      So I know you've done a lot of research in this area. You studied it for a while. And compassion and, you know, kindness in general is something I think a lot about. I think about what is needed more today than ever in the world is kindness. I feel we're missing it. We're lacking it. Uh, social media seems to, uh, allow people, seems to give people, um, free rein to sort of be slightly anonymous and behave in a way that we would never behave with people face to face. And as, you know, I try and promote compassion and think that it's one of the most important things that we can ... If we wanna be the change that is out there in the world, we need to start being compassionate in all of our interactions. And I'm wondering how exercise plays into compassion, because we're a sedentary world now. Uh, we sit down all day. We sit down on transport. We don't need to move to get our food. We can order food on our phones now. You know, the way we're living as human beings has changed fundamentally, and if being sedentary can make us depressed and anxious, well, can being sedentary also make us lacking in compassion, and make us angry, and make us wanna attack people? And maybe movement, increasing our movement, is gonna help us be a bit more compassionate to ourselves-

    4. KM

      Yeah

    5. RC

      ... but to the world around us.

    6. KM

      I mean, it definitely can for reasons both biochemical and psychological and social. Um, you know, so there are a lot of barriers to compassion. Um, first of all is being the recipient of compassion and, and social safety. So, you know, when, when we talk about the world becoming less compassionate, it's not because there's something like deeply broken about individuals. We know that human beings have competing instincts. We have tremendous courage and willingness to be kind and to help others, and also, we have very strong instincts to protect ourselves, to be wary of strangers, um, to avoid suffering and conflict. And so what compassion often requires of us is to feel safe, to feel cared for, and to feel brave. And so one of the ways that exercise can help us access our compassion and kindness is to give us experiences of our own strength and courage. Um, you know, like, so for example, um, one of my longtime meditation teachers focuses on compassion meditation, and I was so surprised to find out that she does kickboxing. The ... You would think that's really strange. Uh, she's a Zen meditation teacher, and she does kickboxing. But she often talks about, you know, compassion is about active engagement with things that are difficult, so what better way to tap into your own compassion instinct than to feel fierce, and brave, and strong, and powerful, and know how to use energy? So sometimes exercise allows us to deepen our compassion just by allowing ourselves to trust ourselves, uh, to be able to channel and harness energy, and also to feel more connected to others to the degree that movement gives you a community of belonging, that movement changes your brain chemistry in ways that literally makes eye contact feel safer. Um, exercise can make it feel easier to receive the help and kindness of others. You know, I talk to a lot of people in this book who found through movement the first place where it felt safe to acknowledge your own vulnerabilities and receive the help of others. And when you can experience what it's like to receive the kindness of others, it also makes you more willing to extend that-

    7. RC

      Yeah

    8. KM

      ... to others. So it's very complicated in ways that I think are almost always ... You know, we started this conversation talking about an upward spiral. I think that if you set the intention, if you say that my movement practice is part of how I want to cultivate deeper self-compassion and compassion, I'm not sure it will always do it, but if you have that as one of your intentions, there are so many ways that, that, um, that movement can support your desire to be a more compassionate force in the world.

    9. RC

      Yeah. Kelly, I love it. I, I wish we had another two hours to keep talking because, you know, there is just so much to tap into here. I think you've written a wonderful book. I really do. I think, um, you know, I hope everyone listening to this goes out and buys the book. I think it's brilliant. I think if you are someone who loves to move, I think it's gonna show you why. It's gonna make you wanna wax lyrical about it and tell more people. But I actually also believe that if you are someone who struggles with movements, I actually do believe that by reading this book, it's gonna help, I think, inspire someone to go, "Hey, you know what? Maybe I've been looking at this all wrong. Maybe actually I'm just gonna start by putting on one of my favorite tunes and seeing how I wanna move. In the comfort of my own room with nobody watching, I'm just gonna get moving," and see what kind of ripple effect, what kind of upward spiral might be able to start in that individual's life. So I wanna thank you for that, Kelly. I wanna thank you for making time to come and see me today. Um, Kelly, this podcast is called Feel Better, Live More, right? So when we feel better in ourselves, we get more out of our lives. And you've very beautifully made the case that when we move more, we're gonna get more out of our lives. We've covered lots of different things today, but I always love to le- always love to lead the listener with some really practical tips, things that they can think about applying in their own life immediately. Not next week, not next month, but immediately to start transforming the way that they feel. So there are a lot of different kinds of people who listen to this podcast, but I wonder, have you got some pearls of wisdom to finish off this conversation?

    10. KM

      Yeah. So if you are thinking about adding movement into your life, one thing I like people to think about is that it is a reset. It's an immediate reset for your mood and your brain chemistry. And so to think about when in your life you want to flip that switch and get a reset, and, like, set an appointment for yourself to move. For me, because of my temperament, like, I wake up anxious. [laughs] Um, I don't wake up like, you know, birds singing. I wake up, I'm like, "Oh, bleep, I have to get up and do this again?" [laughs] So for me, I exercise first thing in the morning, even though I don't want to, because I know that that's a reset for me. And I really encourage people to think, if you know that exercise is a reset, it's gonna make you the best version of yourself, to start to think about putting any dose of movement into that. Maybe it's the transition from, from work to home. So, you know, I spoke with a, a, um, police officer who trains other officers, and they actually do their most important exercise in the transition between serving and going home, because they wanna leave behind some of the, the vigilance and intensity that they need-

    11. RC

      Yeah

    12. KM

      ... on the job to go home to be with their family in a different way. So it's most important for them to exercise in that transition so that they can go home and, and be more open in a way that they want to be with their family. And it... for me, it's in the morning. So that's one thing I would think about. Um, absolutely create a playlist to move to, unless you are, like, one of the 10% of people who just aren't that moved by music.

    13. RC

      Mm-hmm.

    14. KM

      But most people are. And to put together a playlist that inspires you to move. Um, and the other thing I would say is so many people get an immediate benefit from moving outdoors. If you are somebody who thinks you don't like to exercise, if there's any natural environment where you feel safe in, and it doesn't have to be the wilderness, it could be any green space. For me, my favorite places outdoors are actually waterfronts in urban areas, um, where I can see a skyline and the blue sky and some, you know, ducks in the river or something. [smacks lips] Um, to spend time outdoors is, will often be the most powerful way for people to immediately connect to the psychological benefits of movement.

    15. RC

      Yeah. I love it, Kelly. Thank you so, so much. Your favorite track to move to?

    16. KM

      Oh my gosh. There are too many. Uh-

    17. RC

      If you had to choose one?

    18. KM

      Right now I am loving, um, Move Your Body by Sia is one of my theme songs. And, um, Higher Love, the Whitney Houston remake.

    19. RC

      Love it.

    20. KM

      That's really very popular right now.

    21. RC

      Love it. Well, what a great place to finish. Kelly, if people wanna stay in touch with you on social media, do you do social media?

    22. KM

      I do.

    23. RC

      And if so, where should they find you?

    24. KM

      I'm on Instagram and Spotify. I put all my, um, my playlists for my classes. Um, and there are some playlists inspired by the book. Um, so I'm kellymariemcgonigal on both Instagram and Spotify.

    25. RC

      Yeah.

    26. KM

      And on Twitter and Facebook, Kelly McGonigal.

    27. RC

      Fantastic. And for people listening, for people watching on YouTube, we will link to all of, uh, those links, the Spotify playlist, which I can't wait-

    28. KM

      Yeah

    29. RC

      ... to find myself.

    30. KM

      I, I actually asked on social media the song you most wanna move to, and I have an amazing playlist, uh, from people all over the world, all ages, the songs they most want to move to. So if you're looking for inspiration, that's a great, great playlist to go to.

Episode duration: 1:37:06

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