Dr Rangan ChatterjeeThe 3 Things You Need To Be Truly Happy | Arthur Brooks
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
115 min read · 22,817 words- 0:00 – 0:20
Intro
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Arthur, you're probably one of the most prominent voices globally talking about happiness. Where have you learnt the most about happiness from? Is it the scientific research, your religion, or your wife?
- ABArthur Brooks
So I've learned different things from those
- 0:20 – 2:03
How Arthur discovered the science of happiness
- ABArthur Brooks
three sources. I've been married a long time. I've been married 35 years. I have a very happy marriage, a very high-conflict, high-honesty, happy marriage to a Spaniard, right? And, and the truth is that I needed more happiness information in spite of the fact that I have a happy marriage. And I realized this not that long ago, about seven years ago. Now I'm, I'm trained as a behavioral scientist. I got my PhD almost 30 years ago, as a matter of fact. But in the middle of my academic career, I left to run a company, and, and for 11 years, I was a CEO of a big nonprofit in Washington, DC, and I was very unhappy by the end of it.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Mm-hmm.
- ABArthur Brooks
I, I couldn't, I couldn't find the sense of meaning in my life, and I was very, very stressed out, et cetera. And I realized that despite the fact that all of the, all of the things in my life were technically on point. I have a happy marriage. I'm serious about my faith, et cetera. I have, you know, great kids. Uh, I make a good living. That I was doing a lot of things wrong, and I needed to get on point. I needed to get my happiness protocols on point. So I quit, I walked away, and I dedicated myself to actually being more serious about the science of happiness that I could bring to other people starting, well, really with myself, and I began teaching that. And what I have found is just this combination of the right conditions in your life, but also doing things on purpose quite correctly-
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Mm
- ABArthur Brooks
... that actually will, will come together to make the happiest possible person. You can have a super happy marriage and be an unhappy person, is the bottom line, if you're doing a lot of other things wrong.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Yeah. One of the things that I've been thinking a lot about recently is that there are happy people out there who don't need a framework for happiness.
- ABArthur Brooks
Right.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Right? So in, in your book on happiness, you have this beautiful framework, these three macronutrients that are required-
- ABArthur Brooks
Mm-hmm
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
... right, enjoyment, satisfaction, and
- 2:03 – 4:07
Why do we need a framework for happiness?
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
meaning. In my book on happiness, I create this framework, which is alignment, contentment, and control, that we can-
- ABArthur Brooks
Mm
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
... talk about that and-
- ABArthur Brooks
Mm-hmm
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
... compare and contrast shortly.
- ABArthur Brooks
Mm-hmm.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
But I also have to acknowledge that there are so many people out there living in many countries around the world who are probably naturally happy-
- ABArthur Brooks
Right
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
... and their culture, and maybe even their religion-
- ABArthur Brooks
Mm
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
... leads to them doing the practices that we talk about-
- ABArthur Brooks
Right
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
... without them needing an expert telling them how to do this.
- ABArthur Brooks
Yeah, they have good hygiene because of some of these things. And, and, and so did I because, you know, I'm serious about my faith, and the data are very clear that people who are serious about religious faith are happier than those who aren't.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Mm.
- ABArthur Brooks
That people who have happy marriages are happier than those who aren't. But I had a problem. My big problem actually comes back to the, the, the genetics of happiness. There are really interesting identical twin studies-
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Mm
- ABArthur Brooks
... you know, from the, from the psychologist at the University of Minnesota, Lykken and Tellegen, who actually did these... They, they looked at this database on identical twins born between the mid-'30s and the mid-'60s that were separated at birth and adopted into separate families, which is quasi experimental conditions, right? Because they were reunited at about the age of 40 and given personality tests. And of course, there was a bunch of nerds like us with white lab coats following them around with clipboards collecting data. [laughs] And it turns out that about half of your happiness is genetic.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Mm.
- ABArthur Brooks
Now, what does this mean? This means that if everything is on point, religion, family, et cetera, et cetera, and you've got good genetics, you don't have to worry at all about the science of happiness. That's absolutely the case. It's like these guys who have unbelievable muscle protein synthesis because of their superior genetics, and they can, they can eat like an 11-year-old, and they still look like a Greek god.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Mm.
- ABArthur Brooks
Well, that doesn't work for the rest of us. And so I come from gloomy stock. You know, I come from parents who suffered a lot in Seattle, Washington, which has-
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Mm
- ABArthur Brooks
... maybe even worse weather than Wilmslow [laughs] in northern England. And, and, and so the result of it is I had to do the work. It wasn't enough just to have some of these institutional things on point. I needed to learn more, is how that worked out. I'm a naturally unhappy person, which is why I study happiness.
- 4:07 – 5:54
Is Rangan naturally a happy person?
- ABArthur Brooks
Are you a naturally happy person?
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
It's tricky. Am I naturally happy? I think so, and at the same time, I resonate with so much of your work because I have fallen into certain modern traps over the course of my life.
- ABArthur Brooks
Right.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Okay?
- ABArthur Brooks
[laughs]
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
And I've... Those traps, essentially thinking that external validation would make me happy.
- ABArthur Brooks
Mm-hmm.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
I learnt when I got more external validation than I could have possibly dreamt of as a young boy, I realized, oh, yeah, this is a trap. You can read about it, but now you're in the trap, okay? So I feel now at 48, genuinely, I, I couldn't be happier.
- ABArthur Brooks
Yeah.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Like I, I f- and I feel there's multiple components of that.
- ABArthur Brooks
Right.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
But going back to your point about genetics, I don't know what my genetics are, but I would imagine that I won the genetic lottery-
- ABArthur Brooks
Yeah
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
... when it comes to happiness.
- ABArthur Brooks
Well, I mean, you, you knew your parents well. I mean, you said your father died about 10 years ago.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Yeah.
- ABArthur Brooks
And your mother's still alive.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Yeah.
- ABArthur Brooks
Were they generally happy people?
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
I think my dad, even when he was knackered and tired, he'd always have a smile. He'd always tell jokes. He, he-
- ABArthur Brooks
Mm.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
I think he was naturally happy.
- ABArthur Brooks
Mm.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
And if I think about Mum, yeah, I would say my parents are naturally happy.
- ABArthur Brooks
So they're sunny people.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Yeah.
- ABArthur Brooks
And now they're immigrants. Immigrants have a partic- there's a particular kind of hypomanic edge, and that's very characteristic of immigrants, of hardworking immigrants. It's that, you know, they want more, more, more, more, right? They tend to present kind of workaholic-ly, but what they really want is these deep experiences of the life that they can actually lead, right?
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Yeah. It's so interesting. Perhaps you could go through your happiness model.
- ABArthur Brooks
Okay.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
You can just outline it for the audience who may not be familiar with it.
- 5:54 – 14:01
The Happiness Model
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
explain those three macronutrients of happiness.
- ABArthur Brooks
Right. Right. Yeah, that's great. And, and by the way, your model too, which I think actually maps pretty nicely onto the one that I talk about.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Yeah.
- ABArthur Brooks
Yeah. So when I first came into the happiness business, I mean, I wrote a book 25 years ago about happiness, and, and, and I got a, got the flavor for it. When I came back to academia and I took a professorship at Harvard, I decided I was gonna do that, but I had to look at the whole field and say, "What's wrong with the field?" You know, why is it that happiness experts are not having more impact on how people live their lives? Everybody wants to be happy, and, and, and we don't know how to do it.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Mm.
- ABArthur Brooks
Now, now part of the reason is because it's a misbegotten idea that you can be actually cosmically happy. I mean, we're going to have negative emotions-
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Mm
- ABArthur Brooks
... which is protect- which is a protective phenomenon. If you didn't have fear, anger, disgust, and sadness, you'd be a tiger's lunch in, you know, 15 minutes. So you need these things, and you're going to have negative experiences because you're walking through the world, but, but we want to be happier than we currently are, and we don't know how. Now, most of the, the research when I came back to the field in 2019 w- talked about happiness as, as you feel happy and you have objective proof that you're happy. That's happiness. Well, it's completely circular and unhelpful. So I went back to the way that you would define it by looking at the, the nutrition literature. Who has the best health, and what are they eating?
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Mm-hmm.
- ABArthur Brooks
And what they find is that, you know, you'll break up into macronutrients-
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Mm
- ABArthur Brooks
... how, you know, how people are eating, and this gets to this whole concept of, of protein, carbohydrates, and fat in proper balance and abundance so that you'll have a healthy body and you'll eat in a healthy way. You know, you as a physician, you had to give all kinds of people advice-
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Yeah
- ABArthur Brooks
... over the years that are getting too much carbohydrate and not enough protein, for example. So I knew that there was a model underneath that, and I went to the literature to find out, okay, what are the phenomena that you find that are most correlated with people who have the most happiness? Number one, they enjoy their lives, and enjoyment is not the same thing as pleasure. Pleasure is a largely limbic phenomenon.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Mm.
- ABArthur Brooks
You know, activating the ventral tegmental area and the ventral striatum of the brain, where you say, "Ah." And, and it's a very blunt thing. I mean, you can get the same sort of pleasure-
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Yeah
- ABArthur Brooks
... the same sense of ebullience if you, if your girlfriend says, "I love you," or if you have a big bump of cocaine.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Mm.
- ABArthur Brooks
I mean, that's a-- we have thrifty brains, [laughs] right? And so pleasure is not-- The, the, the secret to happiness is not pleasure. Pleasure doesn't lead you to happiness. Pleasure in abundance leads you to rehab. [laughs] Enjoyment is pleasure plus people plus memory. It's a largely executive experience of pleasure, which means that if you're, if you're, if you love something and it really feels good and, and it could be addictive, if you're doing it alone, you're probably doing it wrong.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Yeah.
- ABArthur Brooks
That's how it's sort of dangerous. That's how I've talked about it with my kids and my students over the years. So enjoyment is number one. You got to enjoy your life, and a lot of what I talk about is enjoyment. I work a lot with super strivers and hardworking people, and that's where they're weak. A lot of CEOs and-
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Mm-hmm
- ABArthur Brooks
... entrepreneurs, they don't enjoy their lives very much. They just don't, you know, because they, they don't do it. For example, I mean, they, y- I, I, I look at, at your show, which is super popular, really, really, really successful. They would not be able to stop the show for a couple of months every year. They wouldn't be able to do it. The reason that you can is because you're assiduous about that macronutrient of your happiness, which is to enjoy your life.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Yeah.
- ABArthur Brooks
You want to do that. So that's part one, and I have to give people lessons on how to enjoy their lives.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Mm.
- ABArthur Brooks
Number-- Scientifically. Number two is satisfaction. Satisfaction, the second macronutrient, is the joy of an accomplishment with struggle. It's a funny thing about Homo sapiens that we want to, we want to accomplish things, but we must suffer or we don't find sweetness in them.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Yeah.
- ABArthur Brooks
Suffering and accomplishment are both really important for us to get satisfaction in life.
- 14:01 – 21:30
Satisfaction and Struggle
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
well, I think it can be interpreted in many ways, right? So it could be interpreted as this is not something I, I necessarily want to do. This is something that I'm having to force myself to do against my interests. Like for example, let's say you wanna be a really good tennis player, and in order to do that, you're gonna have to train your fitness. You're gonna have to go to coaching. You're gonna have to work on your weak stroke, right? But you could enjoy that.
- ABArthur Brooks
Mm-hmm.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
You may not perceive it a struggle, but when you actually reach the goal or as you get better at being a tennis player, you're gonna have this kinda deep satisfaction, aren't you? So, you know, help me understand exactly what we mean by that.
- ABArthur Brooks
So we naturally don't want to sacrifice and struggle. We don't wanna pass up on a cookie.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Mm-hmm.
- ABArthur Brooks
We don't want that necessarily, but we learn that something good comes to us when we don't have that, and that gives us satisfaction-
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Mm
- ABArthur Brooks
... inherently. What you do find is that those who are, are willing to stand up to their own a- animal desires and willing to actually put, to, to, to, to postpone their gratifications, that they actually do better in life.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Mm.
- ABArthur Brooks
And, and one of the reasons that they do that, you find as you go f- as you, as you, it... look at people who are good at deferring their gratifications, they like deferring their gratifications.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Yeah.
- ABArthur Brooks
They enjoy that. There is a, there's a, a, a, there is a, a sense of satisfaction that it comes inherently from dominating yourself. And, you know, think about it. You know, you go to the gym every day like me. I mean, we're, we try to be fit and have healthy bodies and the whole thing, and you don't go to the gym and say, "You know, this is gonna feel so good. It's leg day."
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
[laughs]
- ABArthur Brooks
No, it's gonna feel bad. It's gonna feel re- and that's the point. And then when you come out of the gym, you're like, "Yeah."
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Mm.
- ABArthur Brooks
I mean, that's a really, really good thing is what I get. When you were going through medical school-
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Yeah
- ABArthur Brooks
... and you were having, you know, sleeping three hours a night getting ready for your exams, the whole point was that that per se showed you something about who you are as a person.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Well, well, that's what it does, doesn't it?
- ABArthur Brooks
Yeah.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
That's the key thing. It gives you self-belief.
- ABArthur Brooks
Yeah.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Right?
- ABArthur Brooks
Yeah.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
You know, a- as you, you just met my son. He's just finished his GCSE examinations, which are the exams you do in the UK at around the age of 15, 16, right?
- ABArthur Brooks
Yeah.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
In August when the results come out, time will tell how we actually did in them. But, but m- I think even more importantly than that, it's about, "Hey, I had to, you know, had to not do some of the other things I wanted to do-
- ABArthur Brooks
Right
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
... whilst I revised for these exams."
- ABArthur Brooks
Yeah.
- 21:30 – 24:44
What is ‘Meaning’?
- ABArthur Brooks
You need all three.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
How would you sort of give us the top level snapshot of what you mean when you say meaning?
- ABArthur Brooks
Meaning is a combination of coherence, why things happen the way they do; purpose, why I'm doing what I'm doing; and significance, why my life matters. It's the answer to the three big why questions of life. Now, meaning is a- all about why.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Yeah.
- ABArthur Brooks
You know, we, we spend all day long on what and how to. I mean, that's, that's, you know, the age of technology is being bombarded with how to and what, information we didn't even ask for.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Yeah.
- ABArthur Brooks
Which has all kinds of... It's breaking our brains, quite frankly. It's, it's hugely deleterious, and the neuroscience on this is just completely adding up to the fact that we're doing [laughs] a lot of things wrong.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Yeah.
- ABArthur Brooks
This we know for sure. But the, but the, the, the, the meaning per se is these why questions that we've largely neglected.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Mm-hmm.
- ABArthur Brooks
More and more and more that we've neglected. And, and we, we crave a sense of coherence. Why are things happening the way that they are in our lives? Now, maybe you answer that with, uh, in a religious context, because of the will of God. Maybe as a, you and I are, have a science background, it's because it's the laws of nature.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Yeah.
- ABArthur Brooks
The laws of physics. Maybe if you don't believe in science or religion, that you rely on conspiracy theories.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Mm.
- ABArthur Brooks
You do your own research on the internet. That's a cry for coherence when people are doing that, which means that my life doesn't feel like it has meaning, and I'm unhappy as a result of that. But, but it's important that we actually have some organizing theory of why things happen the way that they do. After that, we have to figure out why we're doing what we're doing.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Hmm.
- ABArthur Brooks
I mean, like you and I are having a conversation right now. Why?
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Why? Yeah.
- ABArthur Brooks
Why? I mean, it's like... And, and people come to really interesting hinge points in their lives where they're like, "I couldn't answer that question anymore." It's like, I was doing my job, you know. I was a lawyer. Went through law school. ... working really hard.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Yeah.
- ABArthur Brooks
And it got to the point where I was 40 years old, and I was like, "I don't know why I'm doing this anymore." Or they'll, they'll say, "I don't know why I'm married to this woman anymore." These are purpose problems. And so when you see somebody who's like, they can't answer that why question, that, that, that lack of purpose is a lack of meaning, which leads to a lack of happiness, and that's a big crisis.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Yeah.
- ABArthur Brooks
We are made for directionality, and goals, and progress. We're not made to arrive-
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Mm.
- ABArthur Brooks
But we're made to make progress toward goals. It's a really interesting thing-
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Yeah
- ABArthur Brooks
... on this, on this that, that i- you've seen all those... I mean, you've probably recommended it to 10,000 people that they lose weight, right? I mean, you and I live in the two fattest countries in the world.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Yeah. [laughs]
- ABArthur Brooks
Right? [laughs] And, and so one of the interesting things is it's actually really, really easy to lose weight, but almost impossible to keep it off.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Yeah.
- 24:44 – 31:14
Do we need to have goals?
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
I've really been questioning the merit of goals over the last few months. I think different strategies are useful at different times in your life, right?
- ABArthur Brooks
Mm-hmm.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
So there was a time in my life where goals, I think were very helpful for me.
- ABArthur Brooks
Right.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
I'm not convinced they are anymore unless I use goals simply as a direction.
- ABArthur Brooks
Right.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Because let's say, for example, your goal is... In fact, this is a great example because it actually was an example I witnessed at, um, there's something in the UK, well, around the world called Parkrun. I'm not sure if you're familiar.
- ABArthur Brooks
Parkour?
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Parkrun.
- ABArthur Brooks
Oh. [laughs]
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
It's, it's a huge global movement-
- ABArthur Brooks
Yeah
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
... and it's massive in the UK, but in, in various towns and villages, every Saturday morning, hundreds of people congregate together, and they do a 5K.
- ABArthur Brooks
Oh, wow.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
But it doesn't have to be a run. It could be a walk. But when I had the CEO of Parkrun on many, many years ago, he said this is basically all about community. It's community disguised as a running event, essentially.
- ABArthur Brooks
Right.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Right? It's not actually about the running. It's about being there with other people-
- ABArthur Brooks
Right
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
... doing something together. And you see this a lot with athletes and, and someone I know at Parkrun literally had a goal to run a 23-minute 5K. Nothing wrong with that, right? But a year before that, they weren't even running 30 minutes, okay? They weren't particularly fit or well, and then they trained really hard. And they were getting faster, and they were getting leaner, and they were feeling good in their life. You know, they, he was, he was getting satisfaction-
- ABArthur Brooks
Uh
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
... because he was training. He was doing something hard. He was getting st- faster and stronger, and then he couldn't break 23 minutes, and he was so pissed off.
- ABArthur Brooks
Yeah.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
He was so unhappy.
- ABArthur Brooks
Yeah.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
He's like, "Geez, I just can't do it." I'm like, "Hey, mate, listen," right? "If you compare it to where you were-"
- ABArthur Brooks
Yeah.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
"... you are flying."
- ABArthur Brooks
Yeah.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Right? "You are one of the fastest runners here. You are faster than you were."
- ABArthur Brooks
[laughs]
- 31:14 – 37:02
How important is your environment?
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
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- ABArthur Brooks
Yeah.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Right? With your wife.
- ABArthur Brooks
I've moved a lot, yeah.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
You've moved a lot.
- ABArthur Brooks
I'm not in the witness protection program, but...
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Okay. [laughs]
- ABArthur Brooks
Safe house to safe house.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
I'm glad we clarified that.
- ABArthur Brooks
Aliases.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
But what's fascinating to me is that that's a complete contrast to, to me.
- ABArthur Brooks
Yeah.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Right? And so apart from when I was at university at Edinburgh, I have lived in the northwest of England.
- ABArthur Brooks
Right.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
You know, I live in the town where I grew up. I currently live five minutes away from the house in which I was brought up and where my mom still lives. But I actually think more and more that me having this almost container of living in this town, I actually think has been really, really good for me. Because in a world now of infinite choice, where you can always say, "Well, would it be better to live there?" You know, "What if I moved? Oh, wouldn't it be nice to live somewhere sunny?" All legitimate questions and legitimate things I've asked myself in the past.
- ABArthur Brooks
Mm-hmm.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Now I'm thinking more and more, hmm, if I think about your happiness model, and I think about meaning, for me, and maybe this was 'cause my dad was sick, maybe it's partially to do with my Indian culture or my upbringing. I have always felt that looking after Dad, and now Mom, is really, really important to me. And so if I wa- personally, if I wasn't able to do this, I don't think I'd be living in alignment with who I am.
- ABArthur Brooks
Mm-hmm.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Um, I think I could have more work opportunities and, and, and do all kinds of amazing things, but I think that would come at a massive internal cost. So, so what, I guess the point I'm trying to make, Arthur, is I feel for me at least, you could call that a limitation. Oh, elderly parents, sick. Yeah, you could frame it that way. I can also frame it a different way and go, that has really helped ground me in terms of what's important for me, and I've had to make my work life work around that, in inverted commas, limitation.
- ABArthur Brooks
Yeah, for sure.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Does that make sense?
- ABArthur Brooks
No, absolutely. And the, you know, the truth is that people actually find who they are as people on the basis of, of things that are difficult, and the things that look like setbacks and, and, and, and that's exactly what we were talking about with respect to satisfaction. Satisfaction is accomplishment with struggle.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Yeah.
- ABArthur Brooks
You know, and this, these are the kinds of struggles that ordinary lives have. And if you try to avoid those struggles, well, you're [laughs] not gonna get much satisfaction.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Yeah, but the funny thing is, in my 20s, I think, although I probably would never have admitted it to myself, but I probably at times did get frustrated.
- ABArthur Brooks
Yeah.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Not that I had to look after Dad, 'cause I chose to do that. But I would probably see my friends-
- ABArthur Brooks
Hmm
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
... go off and, you know, go to Bali for six weeks and go and do this-
- ABArthur Brooks
Yeah
- 37:02 – 52:22
Marriage and Happiness
- ABArthur Brooks
us is so that we can help. And, and one of my kids said this, and this will probably resonate with you. He said, "You know, you're kinda my safety net, but I'm sorta yours too."
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
[laughs] I love that.
- ABArthur Brooks
Yeah.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
That's beautiful.
- ABArthur Brooks
Uh-huh. And that was certainly true with you and your dad.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Yeah.
- ABArthur Brooks
You were each other's safety net. And it's like we're, we're, we're... It's divine. We're cosmically bound up in these, in these-
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Mm
- ABArthur Brooks
... relationships. And, you know, perhaps God actually put us on the planet to take care of each other in this particular way.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Well, let's go back to my very opening question to you, Arthur, which is about what taught you the most about happiness.
- ABArthur Brooks
Yeah.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Science, religion, or your wife.
- ABArthur Brooks
Mm.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Perhaps you could give us one thing each of those things taught you about happiness.
- ABArthur Brooks
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So the, the, the, the relationship between religion and my marriage, for example, that, I, I didn't understand that until relatively recently. Most religions, Hindus believe this very, very strongly, but also Christians and Jews and Muslims, that, uh, a marriage, a good marriage, a serious marriage, is an antenna to God. And one of the reasons that most people have a vocation to marriage is because you can't understand God's love for you but for the earthly model of divine love-
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Mm
- ABArthur Brooks
... that you actually have in your marriage. And so it's kind of like the nuclear submarine that has two keys to, to launch a, to launch a, a missile. That, that you, you can't really reach God but with your spouse.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Wow.
- ABArthur Brooks
Because that's... And that's sort of ve- And most people get married for, for a particular reason, but... And, and it's very easy to, to, to, to reduce that to the, you know, well, because you need a sperm and an egg, and, and you can, the, and the biological model of it. But there is something more. There's something more transcendent. There is something more metaphysical about that particular model. And so the result of it is that love, divine love and, and, and earthly love, these are the, the vernacular of actual happiness. They are. It's really, really important that those are the fundamentals. If I could only have... If I could get, had to get rid of all the science, I would. If I had to choose two of the three-
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Yeah
- ABArthur Brooks
... marriage, God, science, I would get rid of science. I absolutely would. What that taught me, what the science actually taught me, was why those things are so critically important-
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Exactly
- ABArthur Brooks
... and how to avoid the mistakes that people typically make, and how to actually get better habits. So it's the kinda thing where you, you wouldn't wanna get rid of a healthy diet, you wouldn't wanna get rid of fitness, but you'd also wanna have some information about how these things actually work together.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Mm.
- ABArthur Brooks
And that's the sort of the three legs of the stool. It's this, it's the spiritual, it's the s- it's the emotional, and it's the intellectual parts of, you know, what we're trying to do in, in, in, in our lives. And that it's their, their reinforcing mechanisms-
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Yeah
- ABArthur Brooks
... to be sure. What gave me the most information? Well, I have to say that my, my, the love in my life was not on point, which is why I actually needed a better intellectual framework, and it's been enormously helpful to me and, and productive for me to make sure that it was clear that I was doing things right in my life.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
What's really interesting is right at the start of this conversation, when you first brought up your marriage, you said, "I have a high-conflict marriage."
- ABArthur Brooks
Yeah. For sure.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
And-
- 52:22 – 1:01:22
Work, Leisure and Happiness
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
in terms of moving forward?
- ABArthur Brooks
So it sort of depends on how much enjoyment act- and satisfaction-
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Yeah
- ABArthur Brooks
... you actually get from a particular thing. So have you read a book by Josef Pieper, the German philosopher, called Leisure: The Basis of Culture?
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
No, but I ordered it yesterday 'cause I've heard you talk about it.
- ABArthur Brooks
Right.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
And it's gonna be one of my summer reads.
- ABArthur Brooks
Oh, it's great. And, and this really... And, and this is his most, it's his magnum opus really. I mean, he also wrote the, the, The Four Cardinal Virtues-
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Mm
- ABArthur Brooks
... which is a really, really good book about, you know, fortitude and prudence, et cetera. But, but this whole idea of leisure as the basis of culture is the concept that there's something that you, you need to do outside of your work but that is hugely generative. It's not just chilling on a beach.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Mm.
- ABArthur Brooks
It's what you do that creates tons of value that they don't pay you for, and it comes in three categories. There's deepening relationships, there's deepening spirituality or religion, and there's learning something new.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Mm.
- ABArthur Brooks
Now, the best possible thing is leisure together, generative leisure together, which is really to cement your marriage in those three areas, deepening your marriage, getting closer to God, and learning something new together.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Mm.
- ABArthur Brooks
So that's the thing. So, so what are you studying together? What skill are you actually trying to get? What you're trying to do to grow your business, for example? Those are possibilities. Are you trying to learn how to do a triathlon? We know... I know a couple that they, you know, after their kid moved out, they started training for a triathlon together. It might sound trivial to somebody else, but the whole point is that-
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Mm
- ABArthur Brooks
... it has to be something really generative where you see yourselves getting better together as a unit, and that will, that, that will bond you. In these, i- interestingly, it, it probably shouldn't be about work.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Yeah. I, I sort of reread your leisure section, um, in, in your latest book-
- ABArthur Brooks
Right
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
... The Meaning of Your Life. And the, the bit I, I underlined, which I, which I just absolutely love, was th- th- this bit here, which is, "Leisure is a serious business in life that, if done right, can save you from workaholism and serve as a calling itself."
- ABArthur Brooks
Mm-hmm.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
I thought it was absolutely beautiful. And I, you know, if you really reflect on society, we have become a leisure-deficient society, haven't we?
- ABArthur Brooks
Yeah, totally. Totally. Absolutely. And, you know, the people who are most rewarded, the people that we admire the most, are hopelessly success-addicted and workaholic.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
But that is the irony, that, that, that a lot of the people we look up to, or we, we see prominently online, are leisure deficient-
- ABArthur Brooks
Yeah, they're-
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
... because they're workaholics
- ABArthur Brooks
... they're hopelessly unhappy.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Yeah, totally.
- ABArthur Brooks
They're horribly, horribly unhappy.
- 1:01:22 – 1:11:57
What Our Parents Teach Us About Happiness
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
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- ABArthur Brooks
Rich people have lower enjoyment than people of moderate means.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Hmm.
- ABArthur Brooks
Now, one of the reasons for that is because they're rich because they sacrifice their enjoyment for more and more and more work.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Yeah.
- ABArthur Brooks
So that's, that's one of the things. And, and again, this is probably, uh, one of the great things about living in an advanced capitalist economy, is that we can, we can make those decisions. [laughs] I mean, if you were living back in, in, you know, 1959 in Calcutta, there weren't that many degrees of freedom. But if we live in the UK or the United States, then, then we can actually decide whether or not we're gonna work really, really hard. And middle-class people, people of moderate means, they can afford to go to the park with their kids. They can afford to be, you know, hanging out with their spouse. They can do these really-
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Hmm
- ABArthur Brooks
... enjoyable things that, that a lot of workaholics and a lot of success-addicted people just don't do.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Hmm.
- ABArthur Brooks
I wind up with some of the most successful people in the world that I'm talking to, that I'm working with day in and day out, giving them enjoyment lessons. This is where they're weak.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Well, that's the irony, isn't it? That is the irony.
- ABArthur Brooks
Yeah.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
That in order for many people to be as successful as they think they need to be-
- ABArthur Brooks
Yeah
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
... they give up-
- ABArthur Brooks
They sacrifice one of the great-
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
... leisure, enjoyment
- ABArthur Brooks
... records of insurance.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Yeah.
- ABArthur Brooks
Right.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
And, and actually, I had a, um, a friend who used to live in Denmark. And of course, what our culture values massively also influences our happiness-
- ABArthur Brooks
Right
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
... because it influences what we do. And he said in Denmark, in many offices, the norm is to stop at 4:00 PM.
- ABArthur Brooks
Hmm.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
If you're still there working at 4:15, your manager's like, "Hey, is everything okay? What's, what's wrong?" Because I believe, and again, I'm not Danish-
- ABArthur Brooks
Right
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
... but from what I've heard, they value leisure. It's like, "No, no, 4:00 PM, you're done because now it's time to maybe go and hang out with your kids. You know, enjoy leisure. You shouldn't be here in the office." Whereas I contrast that to the country you're born in.
- ABArthur Brooks
Mm-hmm.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
It's like, "What? You're leaving at 4:00 PM. Get back in here."
- ABArthur Brooks
"What's wrong? What's wrong with you?"
- 1:11:57 – 1:16:57
Can You Be Happy Without a Relationship?
- ABArthur Brooks
reps and information. Some people are good at using therapy. Some people are good at Vipassana meditation. Some people are really good at prayer.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Mm-hmm.
- ABArthur Brooks
Some people are outstanding in journaling. You need a way. The next thing is learning, learning, learning, learning, learning. Being a learning machine-
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Hmm
- ABArthur Brooks
... so that you can continue to have an interesting life. But last, and by which washes everything else out, is either a happy marriage or close friendships Or both. That's it. So the answer to the question is, do you need a happy marriage? No, but you can't be alone. You can't make it through. I mean, life is not meant to be lived alone. We're profoundly social animals, and that doesn't mean you need 50 friends. I'm, like, you and I are, like, these big extroverts.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Yeah.
- ABArthur Brooks
But, but some people aren't. You know, one of my kids is a ... My daughter is a, is an introvert. She needs two close friends. [laughs]
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
There, there will, there will absolutely be, 'cause y- y- you will have seen this before, but when this episode airs, in the YouTube comments, somebody will, at this moment, be saying, "I prefer to be by myself."
- ABArthur Brooks
Yes. No.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
"I'm not that person, Arthur."
- ABArthur Brooks
Yeah.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
And what do you say to them?
- ABArthur Brooks
But solitude and isolation are different things.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Yeah.
- ABArthur Brooks
We do ... We ... I mean, I need to be by my- by myself sometimes too, but I need people in my life. Now, the ha- the very, very happiest people, they tend to have the, a best friend who they're also married to.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Yeah.
- ABArthur Brooks
I mean, and, and that's, and that's the key. That's the ideal of companionate love. But it's not ... It, it's, it's ... Being married is neither necessary nor sufficient, actually. We, you find that the happiest people, they have more than one friend who's, who's their spouse, is what you find. And the people who like a lot of solitude, that's great, but they need somebody who loves them and that they can love. And I, by the way, I've met a hermit before. I ... When I was in Dharamsala last time, I, you know, went up the mountain and found a hermit who'd lived alone for 27 years, and I interviewed him. He's not like us. He's not like most people. This is not typically the case.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
So I guess what we're saying is that, generally speaking, for most people, these relationships are really, really important.
- ABArthur Brooks
Super important.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Of course, like anything, there are exceptions.
- ABArthur Brooks
Yeah.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Maybe that person leaving the comment is that exception.
- ABArthur Brooks
Yeah.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Maybe they're not.
- ABArthur Brooks
Our friend, the hermit, has just written in in the YouTube comments.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Yeah, exactly. Exactly.
- ABArthur Brooks
[laughs]
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
He's like, "You're wrong. You're wrong."
- ABArthur Brooks
But this is-
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
"You can be by yourself."
- 1:16:57 – 1:26:57
The Difference Between Solitude and Loneliness
- ABArthur Brooks
and that's what leads to this sense of isolation, and that's what leads to loneliness, which is endemic. It's unbelievably pervasive in our society today. That's not because people are alone too much. It's because they are isolated. They're isolated-
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Mm-hmm
- ABArthur Brooks
... from other people, and that has a lot to do with the way that we use technology, it has a lot to do with the, the, the nature of our culture, has a lot to do with the legacy of COVID. I mean, there's a lot of things that actually-
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Sure
- ABArthur Brooks
... have gone into it, right? So I love being alone. I love being alone.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Me too.
- ABArthur Brooks
But fundamentally, I do not wanna be isolated. I do not want isolation. I simply want solitude in concert with the relationships that I actually have, and I spend time alone in, in my thoughts every single day. And when I wake up in the morning, I spend time alone every single day, seven days a week, and it's a very, very important part of my life.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
One thing I do when I'm at home is I have one less coffee at home because I've realized that one, if I go to the local coffee shop and have one there and sort of have a chitchat with the baristas, it just enhances my life.
- ABArthur Brooks
Yeah, yeah.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Yesterday morning, I was there, going through your book, and I think right at the start, you s- there's a chapter called ... You know, there's The Meaning of Meaning, and there is a questionnaire.
- ABArthur Brooks
Mm-hmm.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Right? The Meaning in Life Questionnaire, which tells you where you stand at the present and what you need to be thinking about and working on as you continue reading this book. Right. Now, you've also got the questionnaire for people, it says in the book, at themeaningofyourlife.com.
- ABArthur Brooks
Right.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Right? Is that there-
- ABArthur Brooks
That's right
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
... for people if they wanna take it, right? But I would just say get the book and you can actually do it. I went through the questions.
- ABArthur Brooks
Right. How'd you score?
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Well, so I did them without seeing what the questionnaire meant. And then on presence, I scored 34.
- ABArthur Brooks
Good. Nice and high.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
And on search, I scored 17.
- ABArthur Brooks
Moderate.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Yeah.
- ABArthur Brooks
You are a hap- You're happy at home.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
I am.
- ABArthur Brooks
You're happy at home. And by the way, that's classic for somebody who hasn't moved 20 times.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Yeah.
- ABArthur Brooks
Right?
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
That's interesting.
- ABArthur Brooks
You, you're happy at home. You're fundamentally a guy... Now, you're gonna travel, you travel the world because you give all these lectures and you do all this media, et cetera, et cetera. But you wanna come back here. You wanna come back home.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Yeah. And the thing that I, I do, I've realized more than anything, is I orientate my life around my relationships.
- 1:26:57 – 1:36:57
Faith, Spirituality and Happiness
- ABArthur Brooks
dad, who actually could say, "Don't do that. Do this." You say, "But I wanna do this." "Sorry, you're gonna do this, not that." And what he was trying to do was to help you understand that this particular decision which feels good is actually not the right decision for your life, and that's exactly why we have parents. It's exactly why we have mentors. It's exactly why we have teachers, to actually push us into the right space of moral aspiration.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Would you say from your research that there's a unique role for fathers when it comes to bringing up young men?
- ABArthur Brooks
Yeah, for sure. Yeah, for sure, and that's one of the reasons that, that fatherless families are so hard on kids. It's so hard on kids.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Different impacts on boys to girls?
- ABArthur Brooks
Yeah, for sure, and that's a, an interesting thing. You know, there's, there's research that shows that one of the worst things that can happen to a boy who's adolescent or just pre-adolescent is his dad takes off with another woman. It's one of the worst things that can happen to a boy because that actually torques his understanding of what it means to be a man. That's a really, really big problem. It's literally better for your son that you die than that you leave your mother... than leave his mother.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
[inhales]
- ABArthur Brooks
'Cause if you die, your son will be like, "Yeah, my dad worked hard. My dad was a good man. My dad had bad health." But if he takes off with another woman, he doesn't understand who he's supposed to be. He doesn't understand the space of moral aspiration. Now, that doesn't mean that if your dad bailed that you're gonna be all screwed up.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
No.
- ABArthur Brooks
That's not what that means. I mean, but it means there's work to do under the circumstances. That affects women less.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Hmm.
- ABArthur Brooks
And it's an interesting thing 'cause my f- my father-in-law bailed when my wife was six with another woman. Took off, didn't pay child support, right? And, and when I met her, she was in her early... We were in our early 20s. She didn't trust men. "Men are no good. Men are weasels."
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
U- understandably.
- ABArthur Brooks
Yeah. I mean, men are just... They lie. They... Men want one thing, and the whole thing. It took two years for me to close the deal. Two years. [laughs] Why? I grew up in a home where my dad loved my mom.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Mm-hmm.
- ABArthur Brooks
He died young, died at 66, you know, and didn't have good health, and it was a pro- it was a huge problem. My-
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Sorry to hear that, man.
- ABArthur Brooks
Yeah, and my, and my mother was ailing. She was profoundly demented by the time she was my age. But my dad loved her. My dad took care of her, and that's the model that I saw. And so the result was that I had to make my marriage into something more like my family. But the fact is, is if we had to just choose one dad that was gonna take off, it's better that it was hers-
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Hmm
- ABArthur Brooks
... because I needed that model.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
If there's a guy who just heard what you-
- ABArthur Brooks
Right
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
... what you said there, Arthur, and, um, perhaps they left their partner, their female partner-
- ABArthur Brooks
Right
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
... a year ago because they felt, "Actually, you know what? We should never have got married."
- ABArthur Brooks
Right.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
"It was the wrong relationship. We were constantly fighting in front of the kids."
- ABArthur Brooks
Right.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
How can they make sense of what you just said-
- ABArthur Brooks
So-
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
... and not feel guilty?
- 1:36:57 – 1:46:57
Being Present in a Distracted World
- ABArthur Brooks
who we are deeply-
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Mm
- ABArthur Brooks
... with respect to perhaps even our creator. So, you know, people get old, they start to get, you know, sort of-
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Yeah
- ABArthur Brooks
... they, they get kind of mystical. And, and the problem with that is this, as I've gone through my work and I've gone through my life, I've found that some of the most profoundly spiritual and enlightened people I've ever met are poor. [laughs] It's funny, isn't it? It's like they're, they, they, they still have more to have adequate housing and meeting their caloric needs, but they love God a lot. They have an intense love for God.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Mm.
- ABArthur Brooks
You're Indian. I go to India a lot.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Mm-hmm.
- ABArthur Brooks
I go to India every year. And, you know, at one point I was making a documentary in Dharavi. Have you ever been to Dharavi?
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
No.
- ABArthur Brooks
That's, that was the world's largest slum.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Wow.
- ABArthur Brooks
It's in, it's in, in Mumbai. It's, uh, it's like 750,000 people living on, on, on an amount of land that's smaller than Central Park. It would be like 40 people living in your house. That's this population density of this-
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
I mean, I, I've been to some of the Calcutta slums-
- ABArthur Brooks
Yeah
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
... and it is humbling.
- ABArthur Brooks
It's un- unbelievable. And but what you find is all kinds of different sorts of people, very, very entrepreneurial people. You hear a lot of laughter-
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Yeah
- ABArthur Brooks
... and you see a lot of families, and you see an intense love for God. An intense love for God. And the idea that I'm gonna wait, why would I wait until I have everything else in order to do the most important thing?
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Yeah.
- ABArthur Brooks
And you know, Mother Teresa in Calcutta-
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Mm
- ABArthur Brooks
... herself, she talked about the intense love of God that she and her sisters and the people that she served should have, because that's the most important thing.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Yeah.
- ABArthur Brooks
That's not the last thing. That's the first thing, actually, and that's open to absolutely every single one of us. Yes, we should wipe out poverty. Absolutely, we need more security. We all know these things. But the one thing that is truly democratic is our spiritual heritage that we can actually have for ourselves.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
It's just so beautiful. That, and, and I know that one of the reasons I hold the views I hold about even the relationship between money and happiness is because every other summer growing up in our six-week summer holidays, we would go to India for the, for the entire six weeks. My mom, me and my brother. My dad would come for like three weeks, and he'd have to fly back home and work. And-
- ABArthur Brooks
What time of year? In June, July?
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
July, August.
- ABArthur Brooks
During monsoon.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
July, August, yeah. Monsoon season.
- 1:46:57 – 1:49:41
Arthur’s Advice for a Happier, More Meaningful Life
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
and there was the relationships.
- ABArthur Brooks
Yeah.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
All three in one. Arthur, some people will have come to you for the first time through this show because you've surprisingly not been on over the last years.
- ABArthur Brooks
[laughs]
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Um-
- ABArthur Brooks
And this show, by the way, is touching so many people, including me, all these years.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Yeah. Well, I'm, I'm very lucky. I get to do something-
- ABArthur Brooks
No, it's amazing
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
... from my garden that goes to so many people. [laughs] Um, the latest book, of course, is The Meaning of Your Life: Finding Purpose in an Age of Emptiness. I know you've written many books, but, you know, the one just before this was on happiness, and then, of course, you mentioned the one before that, I think was Strength to Strength.
- ABArthur Brooks
Right.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
If someone says, "Arthur, listen, I don't know which of those three to choose for my first Arthur Brooks book,"
- ABArthur Brooks
[laughs]
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
how would you articulate the differences between them-
- ABArthur Brooks
Yeah
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
... and where would you point them?
- ABArthur Brooks
Yeah. This new book, well, the book that I wrote before, I co-authored it with Oprah Winfrey, and it was about... is, is a primer on the science of happiness, about enjoyment, satisfaction, and meaning. It's kind of a... It's, it's like a, a, a small version of my college course-
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Mm
- ABArthur Brooks
... on happiness, and so it's the basics on the science of happiness. It's based on a lot of science, et cetera.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Mm.
- ABArthur Brooks
But, but it, it gives people practices that they can actually use in their life. A deeper dive on meaning, this new book. It's really behind the biggest crisis that we face.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Mm.
- ABArthur Brooks
The problem with depression and anxiety for people under 30 is, is really a meaning crisis.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Yeah.
- ABArthur Brooks
And this is a book about how modern life has broken our brains. So this is a book about the biggest problem in our life. If you wanna learn more about the science of happiness, that's the last one. If you wanna learn about the biggest problem that we're facing today and how people can actually not fall prey to that-
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Mm
- ABArthur Brooks
... actually can repair themselves, how can fix their brains and, and, and, and, and their hearts along the way, then that's actually what this is for. They're... They, they accompany each other in a way-
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Yeah
- ABArthur Brooks
... as it happens, and so, you know, for me right now, this is the book that's really on my mind, I have to say. This is the one that's actually making me remember the reason I do the work that I do, for sure.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Yeah. Well, it's a wonderful book, The Meaning of Your Life: Finding Purpose in an Age of Emptiness. Arthur, thank you for everything you do. Thank you for all the wisdom you share, and thank you so much for coming onto the show.
- ABArthur Brooks
I'm delighted to be with you. It's, uh, such an important thing that you're doing, and it's, uh, as they say in the, the world of talk radio in America, longtime listener, first-time guest, and I really, really appreciate what you do and you having me here today.
Episode duration: 1:49:41
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