The 5 Regrets Of The Dying: Life Lessons Everybody Learns Too Late... | Bronnie Ware

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 0:00 There's something about the truths that people share on their deathbeds that teaches us about life. I mean, reading them for me caused me to reflect on everything in my life, not just my work-family balance, everything. How am I living my life? And I would also say that I think I came across it when I was ready to receive it.

Bronnie Ware 0:26 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 0:27 And so I wonder, could you just sort of outline those top five regrets of the dying and then we'll sort of maybe unpick them bit by bit?

Bronnie Ware 0:34 Sure, sure. Well, the most common... I spent eight years looking after dying people, and the most common regret during those eight years was, "I wish I'd lived a life true to myself, not the life that other people expected of me." And, uh, yeah, like you say, we'll unpack it. It's, it's a pretty powerful one. The second most common was, "I wish I hadn't worked so hard." And then the third was, "I wish I'd had the courage to express my feelings," and that came from a few different angles that we can talk about. And then, "I wish I'd stayed in touch with my friends." And the fifth one, "I, I wish I'd allowed myself to be happier."

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:14 I mean, there's so much there. I was rereading them again this morning because for me, I'm always trying to look at root causes. So I'm trying to think what's the root cause of a particular problem, not necessarily downstream symptoms, what's upstream from that? And I looked at these five regrets and I asked myself the same question, are they all separate or actually is one more of an umbrella where the other four feed underneath? And to me at least, I felt that first one you shared is almost like an umbrella. I wish I had the courage to live a life... I wish I had the courage to live my life, not the life that other people expected of me. To me at least, I feel if we get that right, like s- spending time with our friends, not working so hard, choosing happiness, to me they feel downstream of that kind of central idea. Now, you wrote the book. When I say that to you, does that land or do you see it differently?

Bronnie Ware 2:23 Uh, it absolutely lands, and despite the amount of interviews and conversations I've had over the decade, no one's ever put it that way before. Um, but it absolutely lands because if you are honoring that first one and living a life true to yourself, you are going to prioritize life ba- work-life balance. You're not going to work as hard. You're going to do things that make you happy, like stay in touch with your friends. You're going to do those other things. And so, yeah, I, I think that's, that's very well perceived that if you're honoring your own life then you've, you have... certainly have less chance of having those other regrets as well.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 3:04 I mentioned that these ideas came to me at a time in my life where I was very open to receiving them.

Bronnie Ware 3:11 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 3:12 I don't know what would have happened had I c- come across these ideas when I was in the midst of caring for my father, and having a young family, and working, and being stressed out, burnt out. I don't know.

Bronnie Ware 3:25 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 3:25 You know? Maybe it would've landed, maybe it would've helped me then. But I get a sense from not only that book, but your other books that I've got here that I've read, that you are very spiritual. I don't know if you resonate with that term, but you come across to me as someone who believes that life unfolds in the way that it's meant to unfold, that we get the right message at the right time. And so for me, certainly, this came to me at the right time.

Bronnie Ware 3:55 Yeah. I, I believe strongly in readiness and timing. Absolutely. And it is a, a divine thing. It's definitely my, my relationship with divinity that gives me the faith to, to trust in that readiness and timing.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 4:08 Yeah.

Bronnie Ware 4:08 And so it didn't come to you at another time. It came to you when it was the right time, and when you were ready to receive it. And I know people that have received the book in their 80s, and then I know backpackers that have carried it around Europe in, in their backpack in their 20s. So I think it just lands where any message just lands when we're ready to hear it. We can hear things repeatedly beforehand, but sometimes... Like, I'm sure in your time of looking after your dad, raising your family, working really hard, y- there were other messages similar coming to you from different angles, but you weren't ready to hear them. And so sometimes the message has to be articulated in the right choice of words or in the right language for us to actually hear them, and I think that's where the readiness and timing lines up as well, that life can be saying to you, "Slow down," for a long time. But suddenly you hear it a certain way and it just lands and you think, "Oh, yeah, okay."

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 5:09 Yeah. And I think also we, we get the messages that we're looking for, right? So let's look at this through a different lens. Many people know the idea that if they have gone to a car garage maybe to look for a new car, and they're looking at a red car of a particular brand, a particular make. Suddenly, for the next two weeks-

Bronnie Ware 5:32 [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 5:33 ... they think, "Oh wow, there's loads of red cars on the street," of that particular car.

Bronnie Ware 5:37 It's everywhere.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 5:38 It's everywhere.

Bronnie Ware 5:38 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 5:38 And of course, it's not that magically over those two weeks suddenly that same car appears everywhere.

Bronnie Ware 5:43 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 5:44 No. You have directed your attention to that red car and that particular model, so now your brain, which is always filtering out so many inputs that come in, is like going, "Oh, there it is. There it is. The... H- I'm interested in that." And I feel it's the same thing here, that actually if we put our attention to this and say, "You know what? I'm slightly dissatisfied. I feel I'm working too hard. I may be in my 40s and my job is not serving me- I don't particularly enjoy it. Is this what life is? I know for a fact this is how so many people feel, Bronnie.

Bronnie Ware 6:22 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 6:22 They, often in midlife, they're like, "Is this it?" Like some- you know, you're at school, you're trying to strive, you- in your 20s you're trying to find out what you're meant to do, your career. 30s, maybe you have kids. Of course not everyone, this is just, you know-

Bronnie Ware 6:38 Generalities, yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 6:38 ... I don't, I don't mean to cliche it too much.

Bronnie Ware 6:39 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 6:40 But I, I often find when people hit their 40s, it's very much like, "I- is this it? Is, is, is this all there is?" And so I think many people these days are asking themselves the question, what does it mean to live a happy and contented life?

Bronnie Ware 6:58 Yeah, I think so as well, and I think that the conversation is a lot more public now, which almost gives people permission to question their discontent. Um, back in the old days, you'd stay in one job all your, for your whole career, and whether you were happy or not really didn't come into it, you just stayed in that job. And now because the dialogue is a lot more public, then, it, people can actually voice, voice their discontent. But prior to that, it's just that quiet discontent to start with, and we can only deny it in ourselves for so long, and then either we find the courage to make the change or life throws a curveball our way, which is really just our heart asking for a big change that we haven't given ourselves permission for. And life will throw a curveball and pull our, break our life up, and then we're like, "Oh, okay, well, I need to reset here, and how am I going to find my way forward differently?"

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 7:58 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 8:00 Let's go to the second regret: I wish I hadn't worked so hard. Now as a doctor, I've been very alarmed for many years at the growing rates of chronic stress, the increasing rates of burnout, and there was one, I think, recent UK study that suggested that 88% of UK workers had experienced some form of burnout in the past two years. Now, this is just one study, right? So I don't want to make a generalization.

Bronnie Ware 8:34 No, but that's still a lot of-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 8:36 W- whether it's, um, slightly exaggerated or not, that's an alarming signal-

Bronnie Ware 8:41 Mm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 8:41 ... in terms of what it says about our culture, about the way that we're living our lives. So there will be people listening or watching right now, Bronnie, who probably feel that they work too hard. How would you help that regret land for them? I wish I hadn't worked so hard. Right? So people say that on their deathbed. But for that person who can't see a way out-

Bronnie Ware 9:09 Mm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 9:09 ... how, how is that regret gonna help them?

Bronnie Ware 9:12 A lot of people will think there's no choice but to work hard because of their responsibilities and, you know, I'm, I'm a mom, I have to provide for my daughter, and, uh, I g- I get that. I, I get that there's, there's responsibilities. But around that regret was not making life, not making work your whole life, and that was the regret that the patients shared, that they had let their work become their whole identity and their whole life, and then when work was taken away, there was nothing left, and they hadn't spent the time with their family that they wanted or they hadn't achieved other personal dreams that they had hoped to. And so I think it's a case of just creating a little bit of space, and when... You know, I, I'm guilty of it, you're guilty of it. I think any of us who have really gone for our dreams-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 10:03 Mm

Bronnie Ware 10:03 ... or, and/or been having responsibilities, we've all worked too hard and we've all worked ridiculously unhealthy hours at some point. But it's about, like, navigating that, pulling that in a little bit and thinking, "Okay, well, I'm actually going to show up better for my work, uh, if I have a bit of a break sometimes."

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 10:25 Mm.

Bronnie Ware 10:25 So I find now I always say space is medicine. So space is medicine to me. If I leave space in, and I actually have to schedule it in sometimes to have unplanned time that has no agenda, just to allow myself to be and, and let the day take me wherever it wants to. When I do that, I return to my work with so much more efficiency and clarity, so I get things done in a shorter time than what I thought I needed. And so there's, there's that aspect, but there's also, say, um, you know, so you're working too hard as, as a doctor prior to, you know, you wa- you waking up to this. Um, and you're wanting to spend more time with your family, especially while they're young. If you can at least just take an extra two or three hours a week off from work, the world will keep going, and the more you can do that and make a habit of that, of honoring some part of your life that you're craving, whether that's more time with your family, whether that's getting out on a golf course, whatever it is. So if, if you can just, you know, if, if any of us can just think, "What would I love to do if I didn't have to work so hard?" and then cut out, even if it's, like, three hours a fortnight or something like that, but commit to it and create that habit of it, then life tends to expand and support us because we've shown the courage and the commitment to actually having a better life and-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 11:55 Yeah

Bronnie Ware 11:55 ... living how we want. And so I've found that in doing that, life gifts us with more space or more time to do those things, and everything else copes. And if it's a case of I'm working 60 hours a week, if I don't work that, I'm going to get sacked, well, you're probably in the wrong job.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 12:12 Yeah.

Bronnie Ware 12:13 You know, get sacked, find a job that's 40 hours a week or 35 hours a week, and actually try and create some space for your life.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 12:23 I love that idea, space is medicine

Bronnie Ware 12:27 Yep, it's mine

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 12:29 It's-

Bronnie Ware 12:29 Like it's my medicine. That's, that's exactly how I treat it. Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 12:32 It, it's really beautiful because there's a macro component to that and a micro one. So as we're speaking, I'm a couple of days away from taking my summer break. Now, this is a big macro thing which I have fortunately been able to implement over the last couple of years. Before that, I couldn't. But I take a prolonged break now each summer and, and I, as I say that, I want to acknowledge that I fully appreciate that not everyone is able to do that. I'm now in a place in my career where I can. And it doesn't mean I completely, you know, don't do any work at all, but I mean, without going into all the specifics, let's say this podcast, for example. The common narrative is that you can't break. The online world demands content. You gotta keep releasing. You gotta, you know, back it up in advance so you can take your break and keep releasing it, and that's what many content creators do.

Bronnie Ware 13:35 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 13:37 I just don't wanna do it.

Bronnie Ware 13:38 [laughs] Well done.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 13:40 And I know it sounds... I don't know how relatable that is to people, but for me in my world, that has been a conscious decision to go, "I'm not buying into that." There's only one way that goes. That goes down to burnout.

Bronnie Ware 13:53 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 13:53 Right? That is not the way I wish to live my life. Firstly, my wife is the producer on this show, so if we release all summer, like as a family, there's no switch-off there, right? We- you would just be aware things are going out. You've gotta check various things. There's, you know, a show like this, there's so many things to check before each show goes out. So we just break for six weeks, and people say, "Oh, you know, you're gonna lose listeners. It gives someone else an opportunity to get..." And that sort, and I'm like, "You know what? I don't care." I literally don't care because I have worked too hard in the past, and now I realize that actually I want that space in my life. My kids are young. They're off for the summer holidays. So you know, in two days we're going off for three weeks or three and a half weeks, and I can't wait. There'll be no work. It will just be spending time together, swimming, walking, going out for meals, whatever it might be.

Bronnie Ware 14:49 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 14:50 And actually, the truth is when I come back, I'm [laughs] I'm better able to have great conversations on this show. And so when I hear that space is medicine, the term that comes up for me is work-life balance, and I think I, I don't really like that term anymore, work-life balance, because as you say, there are times in your life when you may have to go all in.

Bronnie Ware 15:12 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 15:13 And that's okay. I think the, I think the problem lies, and I, I'd welcome your perspective on this, especially, you know, having spoken to people at the end of their lives so much, I think the problem is when that continues unchecked for too long. Like, let's say you've got a business project or you're writing a book and you're going all in for a year. Okay, the problem is that that year becomes five years and 10 years, and for those 10 years you've never seen your wife or your kids. But maybe for that one year... That, so that's one aspect I wanted to share with you. But then there's also the micro of space being medicine, whereby can you block out a bit of time each weekend where you're giving yourself that space? Can you block off a bit of time each day, whether it's just 15 minutes, to give yourself that space? So I kind of feel it works on so many levels.

Bronnie Ware 16:02 Yeah, it sure does, sure does. And you're right. I mean, if we're working, especially project-based things, we do go all in and we, and we work like crazy. But... And often when we're getting towards the end of something, the new ideas are already there for the next thing. But what I've found is I, I don't jump straight into the next thing now. I just trust in the, that it'll be okay, that if I don't, um, have a new project lined up straight afterwards, it, it's going to be okay. Um, like, like if, if the, if there's a, a gap in between the projects, it's, it's going to be okay. I've, I've come this far. I'm, I'm going to survive. And, and anyone listening has come this far, and they're going to survive.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 16:42 Mm.

Bronnie Ware 16:43 And so I think it's, uh, you know, it's, it's really important to acknowledge that that regret around not working too hard isn't about not loving your job. It's just not making your job your, your whole life and that you do, you do take that other time off. But then on the, on the other levels, the, those, those little bits of time, like you just said, 15 minutes or an hour or whatever, it, it's a habit, and it's like building a muscle.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 17:12 Mm-hmm.

Bronnie Ware 17:12 And the more you do those little things... And, and when I say about this creating the space, it's space with no agenda. So it's space to lie in your backyard, in your back garden or whatever and look at the sky, or it's you might sort of feel like, okay, I've given myself two hours today. I might just go to a cafe and not be on my phone, just sit and have a cuppa and watch people go by or... I certainly turn my phone off a lot.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 17:40 Me too.

Bronnie Ware 17:41 And I'm actually off social media at the moment, and for someone who, you know, I, I have over a million books, a million readers of Five Regrets, and that's, that's a huge success. But in terms of my social media numbers, they're really, really small because I r- I love my social media audience, but I've never prioritized it.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 18:02 Mm.

Bronnie Ware 18:02 And I have a, a very devoted mailing list, and I write my fortnightly newsletter no matter what. But I, I don't feel like I'm missing out. I have tried, you know, doing the mass amounts of content and pouring it out there, but I just felt like it was really out of alignment with who I am and how I want to live. And so I'm actually off social media at the moment. I've just said to my audience, I'm just taking a break for a while, and I don't know if that's... I think it's been nearly a month already, but I don't know if that's going to be a month or three months. I just knew that I was sick of all that little micro, you know, just the busyness of, of the tech world and- I think, so I think there's an element of faith in there as well because whatever your faith is, because you've gotta believe or you learn to believe that you'll be okay-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 18:54 Mm-hmm

Bronnie Ware 18:54 ... if you do it your own way. And, and the more that we can actually face the fact that we're going to die and realize the sacredness of our time, the more courage we have to trust in that and to actually think, "Okay, the world won't fall apart," say, if you don't have a podcast for six weeks. If, if people went off and listened to something else, they're going to come back in six weeks. They're going to be hanging out for you to come back, and like you said, you're going to have better conversations when you come back as well.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 19:24 But, but also, Bronnie, on that, and we're getting slightly off the truths here a little bit, but in I think the book after The Top Five Regrets of the Dying, Your Year For Change: 52 Reflections For Regret-Free Living, one of the chapters in that I really loved was called Dissolving the Ego.

Bronnie Ware 19:42 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 19:43 So this is something I really think a lot about. So let's just go to that point you just made. Let's say in those six weeks off, right, an avid listener finds a show that they prefer to this one. That's okay, isn't it?

Bronnie Ware 20:01 Of course it's okay.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 20:02 That's okay.

Bronnie Ware 20:02 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 20:03 Maybe there's a better show. Maybe there's content which resonates with them deeper than mine does.

Bronnie Ware 20:08 For where they're at right now.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 20:09 For where they're at, and-

Bronnie Ware 20:10 Mm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 20:10 ... and, and I, I, I always ask myself this question. If you're doing this for impact, not ego, it kind of doesn't matter.

Bronnie Ware 20:20 No.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 20:21 You, you make it matter in your head because you... We often live according to the constructs that society has conditioned us with. That's the first regret, right?

Bronnie Ware 20:31 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 20:31 Wish I had the courage to live a life, live my life and not the life other people expected of me. So if you're conditioned from a young age that, as, as I very much was, that being the best is really important, that external validation is how you measure your self-worth, I mean, these are things that I've, uh, really had to unpick over the past 10 years. And, and now I will say feel in a very, very good place most of the time. I can still fall back into old patterns sometimes-

Bronnie Ware 21:00 Yeah, yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 21:00 ... especially when I'm tired or overworked.

Bronnie Ware 21:03 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 21:03 But generally I feel pretty good. So i- if you go down that line of thinking... In fact, let's, let's go to Dissolving the Ego, 'cause I thought it was a powerful chapter, and I think it totally plays into these top five regrets. You say in that chapter that this is what we are here for, to dissolve the ego, and you shared how you initially used to feel when people would repost your work without giving you credit. And then there was this beautiful idea that there's a legal ramification here and a soul ramification. So I wonder if you could share your thoughts on that.

Bronnie Ware 21:40 Yeah. I still have readers write to me all the time and say, "This has been shared and they haven't credited you," and da, da, da. And, you know, I have a very loyal audience, so they always bring it to my attention. But I have to stop and think, "Well, I'm the messenger for this, for The Five Regrets of the Dying, and I'm very honored to do that, and I have to earn a living to support my child, but not at the detriment of every other part of my life." So if I spend... And I have followed through l- legally on a, a couple of occasions, but if I spend every single minute chasing up every single misuse of my work, well, then I'm wasting my sacred time on things that aren't lighting me up. And so if I can let go of having to be credited for every single thing and realize that I'm honored to share this message, life is looking after me, my h- my daughter and I haven't had to go hungry yet, you know, we're, we're doing fine. I've gone hungry before she came along. I know what it's like. But life is supporting me enough, and so I just trust that the message will reach who it needs to reach. And so there's the physical side. If I chased it all up, I may get some more book sales because people who don't know the work yet may be drawn to me and get to know me through, through whatever platforms I'm on. But on a soul level, I just feel honored that I've been chosen as the messenger for this, that I got to live those experiences that have then shaped my own life massively, and that does it really matter? Like-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 23:25 Yeah

Bronnie Ware 23:26 ... I don't want to miss the present moment of my life, the present moments of my life unfolding, of my daughter growing up, of all her little nuances changing, just because I need to prove that, hey, hang on a sec, that's my work and I deserve to be credited for it.

Bronnie Ware 23:44 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 23:45 Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. The, the, the key word that for me keeps coming up here is choice, the choice of how are you going to live your life? What are you going to put your attention on, focus your energies on? Because you're right. You could actually chase up every single one of them.

Bronnie Ware 24:03 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 24:04 But at what cost?

Bronnie Ware 24:05 Yeah, exactly.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 24:06 You know, and I, and I, I kind of feel strongly that this is something we all need to consider in our own lives, just this idea that every single thing in life that we choose to do or not choose to do, there's a price.

Bronnie Ware 24:19 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 24:20 Whether it's a financial price, whether it's a time price, and I don't think we often look at that.

Bronnie Ware 24:27 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 24:27 Like, I honestly, I th- I think about this a lot, and I'm writing about this in my next book at the moment. This, uh, this idea that the very best things in my life, they can't actually be measured by the societal definition of success. The am- the amount of time I spend with my children each week, I have no metric I can show people and go, "Hey, look at me." The intimacy or connection I have with my wife, I don't have a metric I can share with people to show that, right? So the, the culture incentivizes a lot of things that don't bring us happiness. Like, if you have so many more followers... And believe you me, I know a lot of influencers who are deeply unhappy.

Bronnie Ware 25:18 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 25:18 Genuinely.

Bronnie Ware 25:19 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 25:19 I've met so many.

Bronnie Ware 25:20 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 25:21 But you would think from the outside, looking at the numbers, that would be incredible. And so it's, it's great to hear you as a very, very successful author who's made a conscious choice to say, "You know what? I, I, I don't have time or energy for social media. You know, I'll do what I can when I can, but that's not the best use of my time."

Bronnie Ware 25:39 Yeah. Well, the thing is, though, Rangan, you know, at the end of our life, it's, it's our own reflection. Those people who are maybe giving us validation because we've got so many followers or, you know, those external rewards, they're not there at the end of your life-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 25:58 Yeah

Bronnie Ware 25:58 ... when you're reflecting back. And they'll probably be new regrets [laughs] down the track, "I wish I hadn't spent so much time online." Because those things that you're saying can't be measured, the time, you know, the, the beautiful relationship with your wife and with your, your children, they help you show up in the world as a happier person or as a more peaceful person. And either way, it's, it's you that will be judging your life at the end.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 26:26 Yeah.

Bronnie Ware 26:27 And so the opinions of others are only as valid as you allow them, as anyone allows them to be, and those people are going to die, too [laughs] so, you know, they're going to have to reconcile their own choices along the way as well. But for ourselves, if we can realize the sacredness of our time and realize that, i- as you said about choice, like, every single choice has a price. Everything has a price, definitely. And if you can realize that every choice you make or you don't make has a price, then you actually start looking at, "Is this worth the price?"

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 27:07 Yeah.

Bronnie Ware 27:07 And so in your case, you're saying it's not worth the price of going gung ho and losing time with your family. You've prioritized the price on that, and I, I, I agree. I, I remember one time I was really nomadic. I had no, no responsibilities at all. I was living in the back of a, of an old four-wheel drive that I'd just taken the seat out and thrown a mattress and curtains in and, and I... There was one p- And most of the time I loved it, but there was also a, a real emptiness driving me in those years-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 27:40 Mm

Bronnie Ware 27:40 ... and, and a loneliness. And I was listening to the Kris Kristofferson song, um, I, I think it was Me and Bobby McGee. He says, "Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose," and that's where I was. You know, I was as free as the wind, uh, but I had nothing to lose. And I realized in that moment just driving along and listening to that, that freedom had a price, and I was glorifying my freedom and I d- I still, it's one of my highest values. I still love freedom, but it had a price, and I started weighing it up. Is this price wo- worth it for me now? Like, am I at the point where the cost of this is actually detrimental or advantageous to me? And I realized then it was becoming detrimental. So if you can realize that every choice you're making does have a price, you just think, "Well, do I want to pay that price?"

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 28:35 Yeah. And, and also it's what works for you at that time in your life, right? We can change our priorities.

Bronnie Ware 28:46 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 28:46 You know, maybe going around in a van, being nomadic was great at a p- particular point in your life-

Bronnie Ware 28:52 Yeah, for a while it was, yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 28:53 ... until it wasn't.

Bronnie Ware 28:54 That's right.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 28:55 Right?

Bronnie Ware 28:55 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 28:55 A- and I think all of us have this stuff going on in our lives. There's, there's choices we make, there's behaviors we do that work until they don't.

Bronnie Ware 29:03 Until they don't, yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 29:04 And so I feel it's a constant... I feel one of the most important skills we can, we can learn is the ability to reevaluate. You know, we all sometimes, as we've said, have to overwork, or we feel we have to.

Bronnie Ware 29:17 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 29:18 But there's a price to that, and maybe that price is worth it, maybe that gives you a better job that allows you to take care of your family and yourself in a better way. Great. But unfortunately, many people keep doing that, and they retire at 65 and realize they have no relationships left.

Bronnie Ware 29:32 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 29:33 And, you know, I'm sure that, that, that would've come up many times for you.

Bronnie Ware 29:36 Absolutely.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 29:37 I think also that conversation about ego, I think it's so important. You know, I face similar things. I have a beautifully loyal audience who will say, "Hey, Rangan, listen," they've, you know, "shared your work, and they're not giving you credit." And once I got an email or a, or a message on Instagram saying, "Oh, this school has basically taken your four-pillar plan and put it on their website without giving you credit." And then I think self-awareness is such an important skill. So if I look back at that honestly, my initial feeling was, "Oh, they've not credited me." And then I very quickly thought, "Wait a minute, Rangan, this is a school, right? They're taking these ideas to help the kids with their physical wellbeing and their mental wellbeing. And you know what, mate? You didn't kind of invent this stuff yourself. You've been influenced by the books you've read, the people you have followed over the years. And yes, you've tried to put it across in your way. For some people, it's been helpful. For others, maybe not so much." I think there's a real humility to go, "I didn't invent this stuff, right? I'm just a messenger of things that I think are useful. So what would it say about me-" If I was then gonna get a bit frustrated with a school for sharing material that's gonna help them. And I get it, it's easy, you know, as a successful author to say, "Oh, you know, that stuff doesn't matter." I imagine someone else at a different stage in their creative life, for example, it, it-

Bronnie Ware 31:10 It does

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 31:10 ... may be problematic.

Bronnie Ware 31:11 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 31:11 So I, I do wanna acknowledge that. But, but there's something there, isn't there, about our ego and what's really driving us?

Bronnie Ware 31:17 Yes. Yeah, I think so. And, and it is wrong if people are intentionally stealing your work and not crediting you, and i- it is wrong, but if, if you can, like, follow up sometimes if it needs to be followed up and, and let people know, "Hang on, I'm not cool with this," but at what price?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 31:37 Mm.

Bronnie Ware 31:38 Like, are... Is stopping them worth what you've gotta give up to do that? And, and so it's just weighing the, constantly weighing it up in life. And, and we are always at different stages, and so initially, yeah, I, I would've been ropeable if people were sharing my work when I had worked so hard to even get the book out there. It had taken me 14 years to become an overnight success. [laughs] And so if people were sharing my work then, yeah, I, I would've been like a vigilante and, and been after them. But then I started coming back to what I'd learnt through my meditation practice, that we are here to dissolve the ego. And, and now, you know, occasionally my team will send a message to someone and say, "Can you please credit Bronnie because you're using her work?" But most of the time I just, I just wanna focus on what I'm-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 32:27 Yeah

Bronnie Ware 32:27 ... where I'm at now, and I'm working on other things now, yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 32:30 I, I guess the deeper, more spiritual question is, is any of it really our work?

Bronnie Ware 32:39 That's right. Is it? No, of course it's not. It's n-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 32:43 And I, and I say that as a, as a challenge to, to ourselves and to all of us. Like, none of us come out... We're, we're all influenced, aren't we?

Bronnie Ware 32:52 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 32:52 You're influenced by those interactions.

Bronnie Ware 32:53 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 32:54 You know? And I-

Bronnie Ware 32:55 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 32:55 ... I find that's just a, for me personally, a very helpful way, a, a very calm way of interacting with the world. That, "Hey, listen." To make sure you're taking action after watching this video, I've created a free breathing guide that's gonna help you reduce stress, calm your mind, and boost your energy. In this guide, I share with you six really simple breathing practices that work immediately. Even just one minute a day will start to make a big difference. To receive your free guide, all you have to do is click on the link in the description box below. You know,

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 33:33 the best... You're a songwriter.

Bronnie Ware 33:35 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 33:35 I'm also a songwriter.

Bronnie Ware 33:36 [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 33:37 And so many songwriters will say that, "I- it's not my song, it just came through me."

Bronnie Ware 33:44 "It just came through me," that's right. And I think we're not only gifted with being the channel for any, any expression, any creative expression, but in doing so we're gifted with the courage that we've had to find to bring it through and release it into the world. And so it's... we're sort of receiving indirect rewards besides the monetary side as well. And because you're very vulnerable when you release something into the world, and you have to break through the resistance of how it will be received or will it even be received, just having the, the guts to do things like that is a personal reward anyway and expands us on a spiritual level. So I just always feel grateful and honored when stuff comes through me, and, and delighted because-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 34:32 Yeah

Bronnie Ware 34:32 ... it's, it's so fun creating. And, uh, but I've reached the stage where I now create regardless of what outcome. And I still need to earn money, I still need to support my family. I've got big dreams like everyone else. But some things I'll release into the world won't really become big incomes or, or even incomes really, just very small things, but I've really enjoyed doing them and having them out there. And then there's other things that I'll do that will actually make me really good money that I, my heart was into, but not massively.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 35:09 Yeah.

Bronnie Ware 35:09 It was just like, "Oh yeah, I feel called to do this now. I'll do that." And it's like, "Oh, okay. That's, that's surprising." [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 35:15 I guess one of the ironies is that when you wrote your blog The Top Five Regrets of the Dying-

Bronnie Ware 35:20 Yes

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 35:20 ... you probably never, ever imagined [laughs] that this would turn into a worldwide sensation-

Bronnie Ware 35:28 No

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 35:28 ... selling millions of books. So it's funny, we can say that actually some things I'm just gonna put out there for the joy of them rather than because of what will come on the back of it, but I guess maybe the best art is the art that we put out without any expectation at all, because that landed in a way that you can't predict. You couldn't have got together with a branding team and figured it all out. Go, "Yeah, this is gonna land."

Bronnie Ware 35:56 No.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 35:56 Right? It wouldn't have worked. There's a, there's a certain beauty to the fact that you just put it out there and it blew up.

Bronnie Ware 36:02 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 36:03 And I, I don't think it blew up initially, right?

Bronnie Ware 36:04 No, I had 25 rejections for the book. No, so I wrote the blog and it took about, oh, six to eight months.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 36:10 Hold on. So, so when did you write the blog?

Bronnie Ware 36:12 In 2009.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 36:14 So you wrote a blog called The Top Five Regrets of the Dying in 2009.

Bronnie Ware 36:17 After I Googled good blog to- topics. [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 36:20 Okay. So after Googled... [laughs] And was regrets of the dying in there?

Bronnie Ware 36:23 Yeah. Yeah, because I, I'd, I'd just finished teaching songwriting in a women's jail. That was what I did after working with the dying. I wanted to work where there was some hope. And so I had this random idea, "I'm gonna teach songwriting in a women's jail." Never been inside a jail, had no skills in teaching, but somehow managed to get some funding through a philanthropic mob and set up this program. And so then a music magazine asked me to write an article about that experience, so I wrote that blog, and then I thought, "Why aren't I writing more? I love writing. I always had pen friends as a kid. I'll, I'll start a blog." And then I've Googled good blog topics, and it was stuff like sensationalism, like Angel- Angelina Jolie and, you know, some sort of gossipy thing.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 37:12 [laughs]

Bronnie Ware 37:12 It's like whatever was hot at the time. And I was just like, "Oh, no, I certainly can't write about Hollywood sensationalism." [laughs] And, uh... And then I, a day or two later, I was just sitting there in a, a real calm moment of space, watching a bird, sitting on an outside lounge, and, uh, and then I just got this really clear guidance, "Write what you know." And I thought, "Okay, well, I know about dying people, and I know about the regrets they shared with me because I've been transforming my own life through those regrets, being exposed to those regrets for the last eight years." And so I wrote the article then, and, um, and so then it took about six to eight months to actually go crazy, go viral, and it was actually during that time that I sunk into a, a really heavy, um, my only, um, and first e- experience of depression. And so as I was coming out of that and I just said to life, "I'm bored of being sad. Just show me a new way forward. I can't look after dying people anymore. I certainly can't go back to being a bank manager," which I was, you know, decades before that. And, uh, and then the blog took off. And so then an agent came to me, said, "Do you want to write a book? I'll represent you." And I said, "Yeah, sure. Everyone's got a book in them. I can write about the regrets of the dying, but I, I can only do it in a way that it's a memoir because people aren't going to buy a book about death." They need... You know, no one wants to just open a book and read just about death. And, and I also wanted people to see how hard it is to break through your resistance and actually allow yourself to live according to how you want to live. And so that was rejected by 25 publishers. And then, uh, so I thought, "Well, you know, I've been an independent singer-songwriter, or tried to be, and I'll put it out independently." So I did that in the October of 2011, and then in February of 2012, in the same 24 hours as my daugh- as I went into labor, first-time mom at 45, like really blessed to conceive naturally and quickly at 44, and so about to become a mom, um, then the book took off. The Guardian quoted it, and it just went ballistic. So I was doing emails from, in labor, from my hospital bed, and that night I closed the lid of the computer and I sent a prayer out and I said, "Send me help now because I'm going to quit." Because I had worked so hard to get my message out there as a singer-songwriter or whatever and, uh, and before that I was doing like inspirational quotes, this is all before the internet, selling them at markets with my nature photos, and I was ready to quit. And then the next day my daughter's born-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 39:49 Right

Bronnie Ware 39:49 ... and Hay House rang me and said, "We'd like to offer you an international deal." So, you know, that's wh- I think that's why I'm so strong about timing and readiness as well-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 39:58 Yeah

Bronnie Ware 39:58 ... because I, I genuinely was going to quit.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 40:02 I mean, there was so much there. I wanna-

Bronnie Ware 40:03 Sorry. [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 40:03 I wanna know. It's lovely.

Bronnie Ware 40:05 It just bleh, just came out.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 40:05 There's just so much I wanna ask you about. Um, you used to go to a market and sell these kind of inspirational quotes.

Bronnie Ware 40:13 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 40:13 Can you remember one of your favorite inspirational quotes?

Bronnie Ware 40:15 Oh, I had this, um, snow gum, which is the beautiful gum tree, but it's got red... Uh, there, there are about 35 in my range, and I used to cut the matting myself and everything for the frames and, uh, make the cards and glue the photos onto the cardboard cards. It was all, you know, very manually, and I was just showing my commitment. But there was one, um, of this, this red in the bark. The snow gums have, have these really bright colors in them and, and I'd taken it at a certain angle and it just said, uh, "It's only through stretching ourselves that we can reach the sky." And, uh, that was one of the most popular ones.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 40:53 Oh.

Bronnie Ware 40:53 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 40:54 Yeah. Love it.

Bronnie Ware 40:55 Mm. Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 40:57 You mentioned before writing the blog, y- y- you were talking about writing what you know. You had already experienced changes in your own life from working with dying people.

Bronnie Ware 41:10 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 41:12 Do you remember one of the first moments when you heard something from someone who was dying, when you actually stopped and reflected on your own life and thought, "Wow, I'm sort of guilty of that. I could maybe make a change here"? Do you, do you remember that first moment?

Bronnie Ware 41:28 Yeah, it, I definitely... It was with Grace, who was one of my, my favorite patients, and she had stayed in a, a very unhappy marriage for decades, and she'd wanted to travel around Australia, and her husband didn't want to, and he was a bit of an ogre. And, uh, he ended up going into a nursing home, and so she went straight off to the travel agent. She was in her mid-80s. Went off to a travel agent and picked up a catalog, a brochure for bus tours around Australia. But it turned out that she had lung cancer, and she'd never smoked, and he'd smoked in the home all those years. And, uh, and so I was looking after her. She never went anywhere. She hardly even left the house after that, or didn't leave the house once I arrived. And, uh, and so she squeezed me. She was a tiny little lady, and she squeezed me and, and, uh, my hand in her tears and said, "Promise me, Bronnie, that... Promise this dying woman that you'll always have the courage to live a life true to yourself, not the life others expect of you." And it was my first awakening to the fact that, you know, that's why my ears were open to hearing-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 42:33 Mm

Bronnie Ware 42:33 ... similar sort of, um, um, the same message but in different words through other people to come, other patients to come. And that's when I sort of really stopped and thought about it, and I was really trying hard to get going as a singer-songwriter then. And so I was doing gigs at singer-songwriter nights and open mic nights while I was looking after the dying people. And I didn't have a lot of confidence. I was a non-drinker. Uh, my, my father was, had been a very successful musician. He was just knocking me down like crazy and telling me I was a waste of time and wasting my time, and I was a dreamer, and I... You know, all those sort of things you don't need to hear from the people you want to [laughs] please. And but I remember the anguish and the heartache of Grace in that moment, and I thought, "What does that mean? Like, what, what does that look like to live a life true to myself, not the life that other people expect of me?" And because I'd left the banking industry, a good career, I'd sort of been really condemned in the family from that as well. And-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 43:38 A good, in inverted commas-

Bronnie Ware 43:39 I had a good job

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 43:40 ... a good career. Yeah

Bronnie Ware 43:41 I had a good job and a good career. You know, "What are you trying to do now?" And, you know, it used to be a running joke, "Oh, where is she now? What's she doing now," you know? And, and all I was trying to do was find my way. And, um, thankfully, my mum always, uh, always believed in me, and even at one point she was so scared, and I said to her, "If you can't have faith in me, have faith in my faith in me."

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 44:04 Mm.

Bronnie Ware 44:04 And, uh, and I did have faith in me. But it was, I think that time with Grace was a real turning point because I stopped and questioned, what does that even look like for me? And I thought, "Well, dear, I think I could be a creative person and make a living as a creative person because that's, that's what I want to do." Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 44:22 Yeah. It's so powerful. I guess just that experience, whether it causes us to overnight transform our lives, which it probably doesn't for anyone, it just opens a door, doesn't it?

Bronnie Ware 44:37 Yes, it's a start.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 44:38 Just opens-

Bronnie Ware 44:39 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 44:39 ... a little door to go, oh, wow, that, there may be another way.

Bronnie Ware 44:43 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 44:44 You know, I, I'm, I guess, biased in terms of my friend circles and how I grew up. Um, but of course I know a lot of doctors, and I know a lot of doctors who went into medicine because it is a good job to do, not necessarily because it was their calling.

Bronnie Ware 45:05 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 45:06 You know, and certainly in, in Indian immigrant families in the West, it is highly valued being a doctor, so many of us end up in medicine, not always because we have a deep desire to be a doctor. That's the truth.

Bronnie Ware 45:21 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 45:22 Right? And it may be a truth that people don't want to hear or acknowledge, but it, but it honestly-

Bronnie Ware 45:26 It's the truth. Mm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 45:27 ... it is a truth.

Bronnie Ware 45:27 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 45:27 So the way I see the world, it's a truth. And, uh, okay, let's play this out. Let's say there's a doctor listening to this right now who's 44, right? Let's say they're married. Let's say they've got kids, they've got a mortgage, but they don't like their job, and they feel trapped, and they feel, "Hey, listen, Bronnie, these, these, um, these regrets all sound pretty cool. I get what you're saying, you know, but I have no choice here," right? "I've got a mortgage. I've got children to feed. This is what I trained to do. I've been doing it for 15 years now. There's nothing else I can do." What would you say to them?

Bronnie Ware 46:12 I'd say there's always a choice. It doesn't mean it's easy making significant changes, but there's always a choice. Do you need to live where you're living? Do you need to live in such a big house? Do you need to have such a big mortgage? Could you sell your practice and work, uh, what's it called? As a locum? Like-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 46:29 Yeah

Bronnie Ware 46:29 ... could you go part-time, um, while you start studying for something else, or start... Or could you drop one day a week to start, uh, you know, putting your, your toe in the water of some other direction? It doesn't have to be the shock of dropping everything in one go.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 46:47 Mm.

Bronnie Ware 46:47 But could you drop one day a week, or could you reduce your mortgage, or g- you know, could you relocate and choose a simpler life? How much of what you're doing is the responsibilities that you've created for yourself, or how much is it because you're worried h- what other people will be thinking of you if you're-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 47:07 Yeah

Bronnie Ware 47:07 ... not a doctor anymore?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 47:09 Yeah, wonderful advice. So many questions there that I think, I think relate to all of us.

Bronnie Ware 47:15 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 47:15 I think all of us can think about those and reflect because it's not a one-hit where you just read the book and suddenly change-

Bronnie Ware 47:21 No

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 47:21 ... everything. It's a constant reevaluation, isn't it?

Bronnie Ware 47:23 Yes. Yep.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 47:26 You know,

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 47:26 when you were sharing the story of Grace, I actually started thinking of my dad because Dad's, Dad's work and his overworking chronic stress for 30 years, where he effectively only slept for three nights a week for 30 years, he was working that hard-

Bronnie Ware 47:45 Oh, my goodness

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 47:45 ... day job, night job to, to provide for his family and, you know, all kinds of things which I've spoken about on the show before. It was only towards the end of Dad's life that I learnt, I think from Dad or from Mum, that... I think it was from Mum, actually. I think it was after Dad died that Dad had always planned in retirement, you know, so at 65, "I'm gonna go back to India and set up some street clinics and help, uh, kids and families who don't have anything." It's actually quite emotional thinking about it now because I think he fell into the... I, I, I can't say fell into the trap because I can't speak to his motivation. If Dad was still alive now, I, I would have to ask him, was it worth it? You know, he may say, "Actually, you know what? It was worth it to leave India, to come here, to set you and your brother up, to be able to provide for my family back at home." Yeah, getting lupus, kidney failure, los- nearly losing my eyesight, all that stuff, he might say it was worth it, so I, I can't be arrogant enough to speak for him. I have to, I have to respect that he made choices

Bronnie Ware 49:02 Yeah. Okay

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 49:03 But, so instead of saying falling into the trap, what I can say is that he made the assumption that many of us make, which is we'll have time in the future. In fact, you, where was it in your book? I think you say something about assumptions. Can I find it? I think it was page 36.

Bronnie Ware 49:23 Sure.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 49:24 Yes. Okay, I've got it. This is in Your Year For Change, right? I, I-

Bronnie Ware 49:28 [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 49:29 I, I scribbled all over your book-

Bronnie Ware 49:31 Sure

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 49:31 ... because I thought it was so key. "It is easy to assume that you will live with great health to a ripe old age, and then die peacefully in your sleep wearing your favorite pajamas. It doesn't work out this way for most people, however. No one wants to face the fact that they may not live past 60, they may not even live past 40, but this is the truth of life."

Bronnie Ware 49:58 Yeah, it is, and we all assume we're going to live a long time. We also assume we'll have time to reflect and make changes and that sort of thing, and it- it's not the way of life. I mean, you look at animals, there's always young ones die, there's- there's old ones die, there's middle-aged ones die, and- and it's exactly the same with humans. And so when a child dies or a young adult, everyone says they died too soon, and of course, you know, it's- it's heartbreaking. I've had friends that have lost children under 10, and it's just devastating. But that is actually how life works, and I've had quite a few friends die in their 30s and 40s, and one of them, he- he rang me and he'd just been diagnosed with stage four pancreatic cancer. He was a songwriter and, uh, and he said, "When I get through this, let's write some songs together." And I said, "Sure," you know? And so he'd been diagnosed three weeks earlier. Three weeks later he was gone. And he was like, "I'm gonna get better. I've got two teenage boys, you know, I'm not gonna leave them without a father," everything else. He was gone. He was just, just like that. And so the more we can actually understand that we may not have those years in retirement, and retirement may not look how we think it's going to look anyway, because what- what plan in life ever turns out exactly as we think anyway?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 51:21 Mm.

Bronnie Ware 51:21 Life always throws some curve balls to stretch us and help us grow and help us prioritize things that light us up. And so we can sort of think, "Yeah, at 65 I'll be all cashed up and I'll retire and I'll go off and play golf or travel the world." But a year before you- you retire, you may end up, uh, in a wheelchair for some reason or, or- or you may end up dead. Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 51:48 Yeah. We can hear that. Like, someone's out for their run or walk right now, they've just heard that. What's gonna change that person? Not that we can change anyone else, but I guess what I'm trying to get to is we can hear these things, we can watch films where we see this stuff, and then we can almost compartmentalize it and get back on with our lives-

Bronnie Ware 52:14 Mm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 52:15 ... and then not make a change. But that is so real, the fact that you could step out your front door and get knocked down by a car.

Bronnie Ware 52:22 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 52:23 It's by acknowledging that you're going to die-

Bronnie Ware 52:26 Yes

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 52:26 ... that you get to truly live life.

Bronnie Ware 52:28 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 52:28 And what's really interesting when I read your work, Bronnie, is that I don't think I was exposed to death growing up. I, I had a complete disconnection with where my food came from, right? Complete disconnection.

Bronnie Ware 52:43 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 52:43 And I think until my dad died, I don't think anyone close to me had died, so I think that's why I found it so difficult and why it changed me so much.

Bronnie Ware 52:52 Yeah, sure.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 52:53 Whereas you write about your childhood growing up on a farm and how you saw death all the time-

Bronnie Ware 53:00 Mm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 53:00 ... with animals. So how do you think your childhood experience there with animals has potentially influenced the way that you see death now as an adult?

Bronnie Ware 53:10 Well, it, it was just a part of life, and so it helps me realize it is a part of life. I'm going to die. You're going to die. Person listening to this jogging with their headphones on, you're going to die. You are going to die. And so none of us get out of it. And so we, we not only saw a lot of death, but my parents would have a butcher out and I'd see the cows or sheep in the yard in the morning, and by the nighttime we were writing on the, the cut of meat while it was still warm, and put it in a plastic bag and writing what cut of meat it was, and then putting it into a huge freezer. And so it just made me realize that it can be over just like that. I mean, these, these warm slabs of meat. I'm a vegetarian now and you understand why, 'cause it was a bit too real. But, but those, um, uh, seeing the cows or seeing the animals of a day, in the morning alive and of a night in the freezer, it just became a way of life, and I think it helped me on levels I didn't even grasp as a child then. And there were dead birds, there were dead snakes, there was dead animals all the time. And, um, and so we were also the same. We weren't exposed to death very much at all, and it really wasn't until I went into working with the dying that I was exposed to death on a regular basis. But even with the first person I looked after, Ruth, that I speak about in the book, even though it was a shock to me to be- find myself in palliative care unexpectedly, I still, that knowledge of growing up on the farm and knowing what a dead body looks like helped me not, um, helped it not be too weird.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 54:59 Yeah.

Bronnie Ware 54:59 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 55:01 It's really fascinating. Would you say- Maybe because of that experience and your life experience that... Like, how, how do you see death? Do you, do you fear your own death?

Bronnie Ware 55:19 So for me, I don't have a fear of death at, at all, not the physical and not the after, um, because I've seen enough people in a state of joy right at the moment before they've died, and not a lot, but enough to realize there's something to return to. There, there was such a state of recognition, um, of-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 55:40 T- tell us about that. What... Go on. What, what... That is so fascinating to me.

Bronnie Ware 55:44 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 55:44 So you are, what, sitting with them in their final moments?

Bronnie Ware 55:47 Yes. Yeah. And, and-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 55:48 And what have you seen?

Bronnie Ware 55:49 Well, say in, in the case of Stella, so she had been in a coma for a couple of days and, um, eh, all her feet and, um, her an- her feet and hands had gone cold. You know, the organs aren't reaching the extremities so well. And so when they... So this is what my palla- the palliative doctor who used to come in and check on the patients explained to me, that the organs aren't pumping to the extremities anymore. They're closing down. So you sort of know... I mean, the fact that she was in a coma was enough of knowledge, enough to indicate she was close to the end, and she'd been in a coma for a couple of days. And so I'd called the family in, and her husband was sitting on one side of her holding her hand. Her son was sitting on the other side holding her hand. I was sitting down the other end holding her foot, [laughs] just wanting to sort of be there and, and, and, uh, let her know that she was there and, and looked after and loved. And she just opened her eyes and looked up at where the wall, um, joins the ceiling up at the cornice up there, and she's just looked up and opened her eyes and... Like, this is after a couple of days of complete coma, and she's just opened her eyes and gone, "Ah." And it was just bliss and... It, it was bliss and recognition and joy, just absolute joy, and, and this elation on her face. And, and her son and, and husband are looking at me, and I'm looking at her, and, and, and then she's just sort of, like, done that, and then she's gone, "Ah," and her eyes rolled back, and she was gone. And she was gone, and I just... Like, it w- it was really, um... It was life-changing for me. In that moment, though, she was only the second person I'd ever looked after. So then the family are saying, "Is she gone? Is she gone?" And I'm trying to feel her pulse because, uh, like, I wasn't even a nurse. I'd just gone in as a companion and ended up in palliative care. And so I'm trying to feel her pulse, but my heart is just jumping out my chest, and I don't know if I can feel her pulse or [laughs] whether that's my heart beating or whatever. And then I just got a really clear feeling from her, you know, that she's gone, and I just said, "Yeah, yeah, she's gone." And, um, and I just... Oh, I still remember her husband just, like, running out of the room and just sobbing, and he... You know, he was, like, in his 70s at the time, and they'd been married since their 20s, and I can still hear that, uh, that raw grief that, um... But for me personally, that helped me see, and I did see other similar things, not as, as glorious as that-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 58:23 Mm

Bronnie Ware 58:23 ... but where people just found this, this beauty in, in their death. And so that just helped me enormously. So I'm not scared of the transition of death. I'm not scared. I have enough faith, and I've witnessed those sort of things to not be scared beyond that. What I would be more scared of, and I make sure that I don't have to be, is not facing the fact that I'm going to die and living with the regret of not having honored-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 58:51 Mm

Bronnie Ware 58:51 ... whatever my dreams are or at least given them a go. Even if I don't see all of them realized or life changes direction, at least I can die knowing that I've given them a go.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 59:03 Mm.

Bronnie Ware 59:03 I would be more scared of that, of not, uh... of, of delaying my dreams and of not honoring it when I've witnessed the anguish and pain of regret. And, I mean, they just sound like words, but when you've witnessed... This is anguish, like, full-on heartache. When you've witnessed that repeatedly, then, and then you don't find the guts to follow your dreams, well, you know, you, you'd have some pretty big self-accounting to do at the end. [laughs] So for me-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 59:33 Mm

Bronnie Ware 59:33 ... that would be a bigger fear than the actual death.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 59:37 What does the word regret mean to you?

Bronnie Ware 59:40 Self-judgment because all of us make mistakes. That's part... That's how we learn. We learn by our mistakes, and it's part of the imperfection of being human. And so, you know, none of us are going to go- go through life without making mistakes, unless we don't live a life, unless we don't live. We just stay on the lounge and watch Netflix, and we don't have a go at honoring our dreams. And then, well, there's a mistake in itself. But if we're actually going to have a go at living our, our dreams and finding... And when I say living the dreams, it all sounds, you know, all very trendy and, and cliched, but it's different for everyone. It could just mean living a slower life, living a simpler life. It might be traveling the world first class, but it may just be to be more present with your child or to be a happier person or to learn an instrument in old age, whatever. But, you know, you're going to make mistakes if you're going to grow and try and be the m- m- become the best person you want to be or as close to that as possible. But whether a mistake turns into r- a regret is really only our opinion on it.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:00:53 Yeah.

Bronnie Ware 1:00:54 That's, that's all it is. It's us beating ourselves up for years and years and years over a mistake, and all of us have made mistakes. We can all look back and cringe over stuff we've done, I'm sure. I certainly can. But it, it's only self-judgment, and so if we can have a bit of compassion for our younger selves, then they're just mistakes. They're not regrets.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:01:14 Yeah, I really appreciate you sharing that perspective. Ever since I had Dan Pink on this podcast after he wrote a book on regrets, maybe a year or two ago, it really caused me to think deeply about what regret is. 'Cause I can hand on heart, sit opposite you today in 2023, say I don't have any regrets. That does not mean I haven't made any mistakes. And I, first of all, I think Dan's book is, is really, really great, so I think we are both saying the same thing in different ways. In, in Dan's book, he talks about regret being human. It's the most human thing there is. It's what makes us human, or one of the things that makes us human. I don't quite see it like that. I, I think this whole piece of compassion and judgment plays into regret. So if you are deeply compassionate for yourself and you believe that you are always doing the best you can, based upon your experience, based upon what you know, then I actually feel there's kind of no room for regret, because if I regret, let's say something in my 20s I did, and there's many things I hope if I was in that position again now, knowing what I know now, I would act differently.

Bronnie Ware 1:02:42 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:02:43 But back then I didn't know.

Bronnie Ware 1:02:44 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:02:45 Right? So beating myself up for a decision that I may have made in the past, in many ways it's the height of uncompassionate behavior to yourself. You're kind of believing that you should've been this perfect person who should have known the wisdom that you've now gleaned 20 years on, which is kind of ridiculous.

Bronnie Ware 1:03:08 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:03:08 But if I believe, no, actually, you know what? You, Rangan, you genuinely did do the best that you could. With hindsight, you could have made a different decision. Okay, next time something like that presents itself to me in my life, I'll try and make a different decision.

Bronnie Ware 1:03:24 Yeah, you will. That's good.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:03:25 It's kind of a, it's a, it's a different flavor. And I guess, you know, does it really matter? No, you know, but people can perceive regret any way that they want, I guess. But that's why I was so fascinated, because I think, I think all your books are great. I think The Top Five Regrets of the Dying, I can see why it has changed so many lives and sold as many copies as it has-

Bronnie Ware 1:03:47 Mm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:03:47 ... because it kind of gets to the heart of what it means to live a meaningful and contented life, doesn't it?

Bronnie Ware 1:03:55 Yes. Yeah, it does. And, uh, and we're allowed to do that.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:04:00 Yeah.

Bronnie Ware 1:04:01 Yeah. We just have to give ourselves permission and, uh, break through the resistance. Like, have the courage to break through the resistance and, yeah, give ourselves permission.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:04:10 You use the word courage there, and when I was writing out the regrets this morning in, in this book, which I, you know, I always just write down some ideas before I have a guest, it's a way of imprinting them into my brain. I noticed something that I hadn't noticed when reading, and that was this. Two of the regrets, the way you've written them down at least, have the word courage in them. Okay? I wish I had the courage to live my life, not the life others expected of me, and I wish I'd had the courage to express my feelings. So the obvious question is, what does the word courage mean?

Bronnie Ware 1:04:47 [sighs] I think it just, for me, it means breaking through the resistance, and any fear is just resistance to either what is or what could be. And so to me, courage is that force that can say, "I'm scared, but I'm still going to do this." It's like the, the dismantling of the walls that stop us doing things.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:05:22 And what stops us from having courage?

Bronnie Ware 1:05:28 Um, being scared of our potential, being scared of receiving, uh, being as amazing as we can be. Yeah. So, um, and that can be being scared of what other people think of us. It can be scared of failing, which really just comes down to what other people think of us. It can be scared of wasting time trying for something and it not landing how we think. But we're still going to grow through that, and we're still going to become a better person as a result-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:06:01 Mm

Bronnie Ware 1:06:01 ... of, of anything like that. So yeah-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:06:05 Yeah

Bronnie Ware 1:06:05 ... I mean, it's, it's, it's an abyss. There's just one layer after another [laughs] after another.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:06:12 Wasting time you just mentioned. Again, something I've been thinking about a lot recently is, is it possible to waste time? Because again, the term wasting time is a negative judgment.

Bronnie Ware 1:06:27 Mm. Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:06:29 Right?

Bronnie Ware 1:06:29 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:06:29 Ultimately, we, we spend time. The way we spend time has consequences.

Bronnie Ware 1:06:35 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:06:36 Like, whether you call it a waste or not depends on, I guess it depends on how you look at life, 'cause you could make the case, and I guess I haven't fully got clear on my thoughts yet, so I'm kind of working it out as we go here. But I kind of feel it is possible to look at life in a way where you never waste time.

Bronnie Ware 1:06:58 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:06:58 Where actually any time that you spend on anything is a learning opportunity. If, for example, you do something that you could consider wasting time, you could go, "No, actually I've learnt that when I spend two hours scrolling social media mindlessly, I don't feel great afterwards." Because if you say wasting time- It's almost like a self-judgment. Do you know what I mean?

Bronnie Ware 1:07:24 Yeah. Yeah, I do. And I think that the more present and mindful we become, the more we're probably likely to have that judgment.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:07:32 Yeah.

Bronnie Ware 1:07:33 Because we can look back to our youth and think, "Oh, I was just stumbling along and didn't know what I was doing," or, "I could have achieved this or that in, in my youth that I didn't." And so that can feel like you've wasted years and everything else, but if you're experiencing life and it's brought you to this point where you can be discerning enough to recognize that, then you're right, it's not-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:07:54 Yeah

Bronnie Ware 1:07:54 ... it's not a waste of time. There- there's an Aussie, uh, singer-songwriter, he's one of, uh, the country's favorite singer-songwriters, Paul Kelly, and he's got a song that says, "I've wasted..." I think it's I've wasted time or whatever, but the line in it is, "I've wasted time, now time is wasting me." And, you know, he's, he's an older man now. And, uh, and I, I really love that sort of play on, play on words. But that aside, I just had to drop that in because it is a really, um, great way to put it. But I do think that if we're kind enough to ourselves, we can realize it's all a part of the fabric of our life. And as long as we can look back with kindness for our younger selves, and like you said, if you could go back, you'd hope that you could, you'd do things differently again. But we're all doing the best as who we can in the moment. And if we're not, that's where we've got the power. If we're, if we're sort of thinking, "Okay, I'm probably capable of a little bit more than this, but I'm too lazy-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:08:58 Mm

Bronnie Ware 1:08:58 ... or scared to have a go," then maybe, you know-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:09:01 Yeah

Bronnie Ware 1:09:01 ... it's time to motivate yourself and say, "I may not have time to do this later. I won't have time to do this later. I've got to get on with it now." There's never a perfect time to start anything-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:09:10 Yeah

Bronnie Ware 1:09:10 ... other than right now. Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:09:13 This idea of doing your best, I once heard you say in an interview, "If you have done your best, there's no need for regrets."

Bronnie Ware 1:09:20 That's right, yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:09:21 Uh, which is a really beautiful way to look at it. To make sure you're taking action after watching this video, I've created a free guide to help you build healthy habits. We can all make short-term change, but can those changes become a fundamental part of our life? Often they don't, and that's why in this free guide, I share with you the six crucial steps you need to take. They're really, really effective. If you want to get hold of that free guide right now, all you have to do is click the link in the description box below. I think in that same interview you said, "Courage is always rewarded, but not in the way we expect." Right, so you've expanded on what you mean by courage.

Bronnie Ware 1:10:08 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:10:08 But I wonder if you could just speak to that. You know-

Bronnie Ware 1:10:10 Mm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:10:10 ... how, how can it be rewarded in unexpected ways?

Bronnie Ware 1:10:13 Sure. Okay, so say you're going for a dream and you've had to find so much courage. Say, um, s- say that example of the doctor who's overworking, has the big mortgage, everything else, and so that person decides, "I'm gonna change direction." And I probably shouldn't use such a specific example. It's for anyone. Say y- you wanna change direction, and so you have the courage. You've made these significant changes. You've gone out on a leap of faith. You've taken risks and everything else, and you haven't landed where you thought you'd land.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:10:49 Mm.

Bronnie Ware 1:10:50 But what you've learnt about yourself in that process is the reward in itself because it sets you up for the next step.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:10:57 Yeah.

Bronnie Ware 1:10:57 And so there's plenty of times we think we want one thing, and we think it's going to look a certain way, but it's the feeling we want. It's not necessarily the physical reality of what we're dreaming of. It's the feeling that we're aiming for. And so the reward may not be the picture perfect result that we thought-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:11:17 Mm

Bronnie Ware 1:11:17 ... we were working hard towards. It will be the freedom we've gifted ourself or, um, the permission that set us free from other things that have been holding us back or weighing us down. So courage is rewarded, and that's not to say if, if you go in a different direction and it's, the physical doesn't turn out, it's not to say that something wonderful is not waiting for you. It may just look slightly different to what you thought. But the other reward is what, how you get to know yourself and the pride in, in having a go just makes you have so much more self-respect, but also so much self-kindness because you've faced all these fears, and you've learnt to love yourself through that-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:12:01 Yeah

Bronnie Ware 1:12:01 ... and still have a go. Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:12:03 Yeah, I love that. Or the, the job you go for that you don't get, but then it's actually a good thing because had you got it, you wouldn't have got the job that then you got two months later, which actually-

Bronnie Ware 1:12:15 That's exactly right

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:12:16 ... is nourishing you.

Bronnie Ware 1:12:16 Yes. Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:12:17 You know?

Bronnie Ware 1:12:18 And didn't look anything like what you thought it was going to look like.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:12:21 Yeah.

Bronnie Ware 1:12:21 It's like me as an author instead of a singer-songwriter. I was like, I tried so hard to get going as a singer-songwriter. I hated going to gigs at 10:00 at night playing in pubs. I hated being on stage like, you know, trying to get over my nerves and everything else. But that, those years set me up to be a speaker, and I can walk onto a stage now and not the slightest nerves.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:12:44 Yeah.

Bronnie Ware 1:12:45 Just walk out, connect with the audience, have a great time, you know, give them an empowering, um, session, whatever, and, and enjoy every minute of it. But if someone had have said, "Oh, you're doing this so you can become a speaker and an author"

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:12:58 Yeah

Bronnie Ware 1:12:58 ... I'd just be like, "No, I'm going to be a singer-songwriter."

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:13:00 Exactly.

Bronnie Ware 1:13:00 "No, no way. I'm going to be a singer-songwriter." And so when I didn't make it as a sing- singer-songwriter, that led to me trying to, uh, setting up the thing in the jail so I could earn money from my music-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:13:11 [laughs]

Bronnie Ware 1:13:12 ... the songwriting program, which led me to writing an article, which led me to, led me to writing the next article, which led me to becoming-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:13:18 Yeah

Bronnie Ware 1:13:18 ... an author and a speaker. So- I, I would never have consciously chosen that. I'd have been like, "I'm not qualified in writing. I hate being on stage." Da, da, da, da, da. Now I love speaking. I've written books and made a living out of it for over a decade.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:13:36 Yeah.

Bronnie Ware 1:13:36 Yeah. It's... You don't know where it-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:13:38 Have, have a trust in life.

Bronnie Ware 1:13:39 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:13:39 Life will unfold the way it's meant to unfold, right?

Bronnie Ware 1:13:42 Yeah. And, and let yourself be surprised. You know, that was advice given to me in my 20s, let yourself be surprised.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:13:48 Yeah. As Jonny Wilkinson, the rugby player, once said to me on this show, he said, "Make friends with the unknown."

Bronnie Ware 1:13:53 Yeah. That's lovely. Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:13:54 You know? Which again is, uh, I think a, a beautiful sentiment that speaks to the, the, the same kind of philosophy.

Bronnie Ware 1:13:59 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:14:00 Bronnie, it's interesting to me that you've written these five powerful regrets of the dying. Each one of them, I think, can help us reflect on our own lives and encourage us to make some maybe gentle changes that over time can become bigger changes. I also know, though, that not everyone you cared for in their dying days-

Bronnie Ware 1:14:26 Mm-hmm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:14:26 ... had regrets.

Bronnie Ware 1:14:28 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:14:31 Are you able to articulate what the difference was in people who did have regrets at the end of their life compared to those who didn't?

Bronnie Ware 1:14:40 Sure. Yep. I, I noticed three things, and I didn't realize at the time, they were just... but there were three common things, and one was their relationship with their family. If they had good communication with their family, then, uh, they, they didn't, they weren't in that category of regret. So I think just the support of family perhaps helped them-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:15:04 Mm

Bronnie Ware 1:15:04 ... have a go at their life, or they were content in their, in the life. Another was humor, that they could laugh at their mistakes, that they could laugh at the winding road that life can become without, um, taking it on too heavily. And the other was faith, that they just trusted there was a, i- in the bigger picture, that everything was fine the way they'd lived, and they had a f- a faith to go home to sort of thing. So, um, and that's-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:15:36 Do you, do you mean religious faith?

Bronnie Ware 1:15:38 Yes. Yeah. And so I'm not saying that every person who had faith didn't have regrets. There were plenty of people that had regrets that had a religious faith. But of those who didn't have regrets, they believed in something larger, and not always religious, but a spiritual belief.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:15:54 Mm.

Bronnie Ware 1:15:55 Um, and humor and family connection. Yeah. Which is interesting, like, you know, it's a whole-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:16:01 So relationships-

Bronnie Ware 1:16:04 Yep

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:16:04 ... humor-

Bronnie Ware 1:16:05 Yes

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:16:06 ... and a belief in something greater than themselves.

Bronnie Ware 1:16:08 Yes. Yep.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:16:11 It's really interesting to me, because I always wonder about how we can tackle issues, like are there ways that we can focus on particular ones, or can we s- still address those issues by focusing on something else? So I wonder if instead of focusing on those five regrets, which I think would help anyone anyway, but as a thought experiment, if you didn't look at those five regrets and instead you looked at, what are the three qualities that people who have a regret-free life exhibit? I find it really interesting to go-

Bronnie Ware 1:16:50 Mm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:16:50 ... okay, number one, I need to focus on my relationships. How many times do we need to hear that relationships are what make up life?

Bronnie Ware 1:16:59 Yes. Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:16:59 You know, whether it's Robert Waldinger from the Harvard Study of Happiness, who over 85 years they say the number one factor for health and happiness is the quality of your relationships.

Bronnie Ware 1:17:09 Relationships. Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:17:10 Right? So we can see that from scientific studies. We can also feel it intuitively ourselves.

Bronnie Ware 1:17:15 Oh, we know. That's right.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:17:15 We, we kind of know.

Bronnie Ware 1:17:16 Yes

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:17:16 You don't almost need the science to teach us that.

Bronnie Ware 1:17:19 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:17:19 Right? So that makes sense. Humor, I guess that's not one I'd thought about, but that's really interesting to, to, to hear that that's what, that's a commonality you found.

Bronnie Ware 1:17:32 Yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:17:32 Why, why do you think that is?

Bronnie Ware 1:17:34 Well, they just had a different approach to life, so they didn't take life as seriously.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:17:38 Yeah.

Bronnie Ware 1:17:38 And so if you're not taking life so seriously, then you're not judging yourself so harshly either.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:17:43 Got it.

Bronnie Ware 1:17:43 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:17:43 So that makes sense, so we can focus on bringing that into our life. And I think that last one, a belief in something greater than yourself, I mean, again, how many times do we need to hear that? It-

Bronnie Ware 1:17:58 Mm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:17:58 ... it can be for some people through religion-

Bronnie Ware 1:18:00 Yes

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:18:00 ... for other people through spirituality. For some people it's through nature.

Bronnie Ware 1:18:04 It's through nature. That's right.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:18:05 You know, when-

Bronnie Ware 1:18:06 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:18:07 ... um, this amazing professor in America called Dacher Keltner came on this show about six months ago, and he wrote a book on awe and the eight different ways that humans can experience awe, and one of them is nature.

Bronnie Ware 1:18:22 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:18:22 Right? And he, he talks about the power of awe and what it does to us. But I ca- I guess that kind of speaks to point three and what we're talking about, is a belief in something greater than yourself.

Bronnie Ware 1:18:35 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:18:36 Interestingly enough, although when many of us think of awe, we think of nature, he also shared in a different chapter that birth and death are also human experiences where we really feel awe.

Bronnie Ware 1:18:53 I love that. Yeah. And I can understand that, too. I mean, we can understand it from, from birth, but from death as well, because how incredible that the spirit can be extracted from a physical body and leave that body behind, and it is an extraction. And you know that one minute there can be a life force inside-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:19:20 Yeah

Bronnie Ware 1:19:20 ... this collection of cells, and the next minute it's just a, a vessel, an empty vessel.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:19:26 Yeah.

Bronnie Ware 1:19:26 Like, that in itself is- Absolutely worthy of awe

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:19:31 Yeah

Bronnie Ware 1:19:31 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:19:32 And I love the fact that for-- I, I love the fact that despite our supposed evolution as humans, that we still can't explain it

Bronnie Ware 1:19:46 No, it's-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:19:47 I love it. I actually-

Bronnie Ware 1:19:48 Thank, thank goodness, really

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:19:49 Thank goodness

Bronnie Ware 1:19:49 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:19:50 I, I don't want us to be able to explain that scientifically

Bronnie Ware 1:19:52 Yes

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:19:52 I love the fact that there's a mystery there

Bronnie Ware 1:19:54 Yes

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:19:54 It's like, I don't know, I think it adds to the magic of life

Bronnie Ware 1:19:58 Mm. Yeah, and that, that in itself becomes worthy of awe, you know? That, that it's just, it's too big and beautiful and magnificent to be able to articulate into-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:20:09 Yeah

Bronnie Ware 1:20:09 ... little words, into language

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:20:15 Do you feel that everyone would benefit from spending time with people who are dying?

Bronnie Ware 1:20:23 Oh, yes. Yeah, yeah. We would, as a culture, as, as individuals, as a species, everything, we would, we would be so much more on track if we w- were all around dying people more, or if we at least had some direct exposure to it more regularly. And I'm not saying everyone needs to go into eight years of palliative care. But rather than wait until your aging parents die, which is when most people are subjected to death or a l- a lot of people are subjected to death for the first time, if we could all do a, a, you know, a week a year or a few days a year or something like that, um, and actually witness a death, then I really believe it would pro- It's such a great question, Rangan, that I just think it would totally change the direction of humanity, because we-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:21:24 Yeah

Bronnie Ware 1:21:24 ... would let go of all the nonsense, of all that empty achieving, and, um, and prioritize what's truly important

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:21:33 Yeah

Bronnie Ware 1:21:33 And then we would work as a team rather than against each other

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:21:37 I mean, even this idea of intergenerational connections I think speaks to that. And what I mean by that is in the era of nuclear families and in the era that we live in now of incredible loneliness and isolation, I think there's something incredibly special about transgenerational communities-

Bronnie Ware 1:22:03 Mm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:22:03 ... friendships, you know, kids spending time with their grandparents and their great-grandparents, you know, holidaying together, all of you, where you're experiencing people at different stages in their life. It may not be on their deathbed necessarily-

Bronnie Ware 1:22:17 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:22:17 ... but I still, I, I think even that gives a richer perspective to life that we often lose when we're just with one generation

Bronnie Ware 1:22:27 I agree. Yeah, I agree. And the intergenerational doesn't necessarily need to be family-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:22:33 Yeah

Bronnie Ware 1:22:33 ... either. It could be, uh, neighbors or some sort of community. And like my daughter at the moment, she's with her grandmother, and they're shocking together. They're up to so much mischief and sugar and, and stuff that I just, you know [laughs] But I've just gotta let it go. And sh- you know, they're both so excited to be hanging out together while I'm away. And, and my grandmother had such a beautiful influence on me as well, and I, I just... We're not meant to do it-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:23:03 Yeah

Bronnie Ware 1:23:03 ... just singular like that

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:23:04 We're really not

Bronnie Ware 1:23:05 No.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:23:08 Something I've been thinking about, Bronnie, about your experiences is to do with mental faculties. So my understanding is that most of your experience with dying people was with, with people who did not have Alzheimer's, so it was with people who were able to clearly articulate to you the things that they wished they had done differently

Bronnie Ware 1:23:33 Yes

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:23:33 First of all, uh, am I right in that assumption? Or-

Bronnie Ware 1:23:37 Most of them. I occasionally, uh, if there were no shifts, I would take on, like, a shift in a nursing home, or I did have one woman who had Alzheimer's at home. But yeah, 90% of the people I looked after were exactly that. They, they could converse

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:23:52 Be- be- because I think that gives you one perspective. One of the things that many people now are experiencing is family members or parents with Alzheimer's. So they're dying, but they're not necessarily getting the wisdom from them that you received.

Bronnie Ware 1:24:11 Mm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:24:11 They're not getting the, you know, the life philosophy at the end-

Bronnie Ware 1:24:14 No

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:24:14 ... because some of their mind or some of the personality that we have known and associated with that person is no longer there. So I guess I'm really interested in how your experience might help someone. If there's someone listening who is in that situation right now, let's say their mom or their dad has Alzheimer's, and they're not the person they used to be, is there anything in your experience, do you think-

Bronnie Ware 1:24:46 Mm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:24:46 ... that could help them?

Bronnie Ware 1:24:49 Firstly, I just, my heart aches for them because that's, that's almost worse than losing them suddenly, to actually watch the demise of someone you love. But in my experience, I actually had a patient who I was looking after, and she was all mumble jumble, you know, and, and the words don't make sense at all. They're not even words anymore. They're like syllables from one word matched with a syllable of another. And she hadn't been coherent at all for o- well over a month that I'd been working with her. And then just one, and one day I was with her, and I used to always, um, just- Uh, put lotion on-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:25:28 Yeah

Bronnie Ware 1:25:28 ... on my patients' hands and give them foot- feet massage and, and, uh, brush their hair and that sort of thing. And one day I was walking her back to the bed, and she had a bed that had the walls up so she couldn't get out. Like, the, she was pretty much locked in the bed, in the hospital bed at home. And, uh, we were getting her back, I was getting her back from the shower and we were walking along, and I had some cream that I was gonna do her feet, and I dropped it. And I bent down a- and I sort of laughed and said, "Oh, hang on a sec, hang on," and I've picked it up again. And she just looked at me as clear as you and I, and just said, "I think you're lovely." And I just said, "I think you're lovely, too." And she gave me a hug, and then I said, "Well, shall we get you back to bed?" And within two seconds she's blah blah blah, back to the Alzheimer's language. So I guess what I would say to anyone is that even if they can't express themselves in, in a clear, coherent way, and maybe they can't, um, always receive what you're saying, don't stop saying it, because there could be a moment of clarity that they actually hear you, uh, say, "I love you," or, or they're very present with you even if they can't articulate it. And so don't, d- don't stop loving them and don't stop communicating with them just because they can't reply.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:26:53 Yeah, that's beautiful advice. And it, it also I think speaks to how little we really know about the mind-

Bronnie Ware 1:27:04 Mm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:27:04 ... and, and what it is this makes us who we are. Like, are they still the same person? Well, to the outside maybe not, but maybe in their own experience they are. Who knows? We don't know that.

Bronnie Ware 1:27:17 Who knows? It's... Oh, it's a endless fascinating field, isn't it?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:27:20 It, it isn't-

Bronnie Ware 1:27:20 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:27:21 ... I don't wanna speak too much about, um, my mum, 'cause I don't feel it's my place to say, but one thing I will say is that this year has probably been the most difficult year I've had in over a decade, because Mum was admitted to hospital on Christmas Day night last year. She was in for three weeks and, you know, she's back at home but she's not the same person that she used to be.

Bronnie Ware 1:27:48 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:27:50 And I've found it really hard, particularly in the early part of this year. I would, uh, I would even go as far as to say it's only in the last two or three weeks that I feel a degree of acceptance and peace with the new normal, but I've been asking myself these questions a lot. You know, what, what is it that, what is it that makes up Mum? You know? Is the fact that she maybe can't articulate herself in the way that she used to, does that make her any less? Do, does that make her different?

Bronnie Ware 1:28:22 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:28:23 And I, I think half the time it's our own issues we have to get over. And I, and I say that with compassion, 'cause it's hard. You know, I, I went through all kinds of stuff. Will I ever have a, a conversation-

Bronnie Ware 1:28:35 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:28:35 ... with Mum again in the same way that I used to? And then some days, you know, I've made some changes. There's some really quite remarkable improvements, but maybe that's for a, for a, for another podcast. But, you know, Wimbledon's on at the moment, and Mum is a mega tennis fan. And so on Saturday I just went round and she wasn't talking that much, but she, she was actually a little bit, to be fair, but nothing like she used to.

Bronnie Ware 1:28:59 Yes, yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:29:00 And we just sat there and I held her hand and-

Bronnie Ware 1:29:03 Watched the tennis

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:29:03 ... we were watching a game together. And I just don't know. How can I know what impact that is or is not having on her?

Bronnie Ware 1:29:13 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:29:13 But I think it speaks to what you're, you're saying. It's kind of like don't, don't stop loving them.

Bronnie Ware 1:29:22 Yeah. Don't write them off.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:29:23 Don't write them off.

Bronnie Ware 1:29:24 Yeah. Yeah. While you're saying that, I also thought about, um, do you know the book My Stroke of Insight by Gi- Jill Bolte Taylor? Uh, she was a brain, some sort of brain specialist, and she had a stroke. And she, she said her mum was coming in to visit her, and she didn't know everything that was going on at the time. She's since become a, a highly creative woman. She's gone from science into creativity. But, um, but she said she remembers that w- everyone was getting excited about her mum coming in to visit her in hospital, and she also gives, like, advice, you know, like close the blinds and how oversensitive people are f- in this, in, in that situation. But in, in terms of her personal experience, when everyone was getting excited she didn't know who this person was in that moment. She now does. Um, and she didn't know what the excitement was, but she knew when her mother arrived that she was loved, and she felt really safe and loved by this person, and she didn't, couldn't conceptualize that that was her mother at the time, but she knew that she was loved, and it left her feeling really safe when everything else was overstimulating while she was sort of finding her new way forward. And just that feeling of everyone being excited made her happy, um, and she just sort of thought, "Okay, this is..." And all the energy sort of shifted, like, "This is, this is lovely." And then the love she felt from her mum carried her through to come out the other side. Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:30:58 Wow.

Bronnie Ware 1:30:59 I think about what, you know, what you just said earlier as well, Rangan, that sometimes it's about our own perception of it all and what we have to change to, to adapt to those changes, and it is what it is right now.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:31:14 Yeah.

Bronnie Ware 1:31:15 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:31:15 It's a part of life.

Bronnie Ware 1:31:16 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:31:16 Right?

Bronnie Ware 1:31:17 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:31:17 And what's that phrase? You know, when you can't change a situation, you're forced to change yourself.

Bronnie Ware 1:31:24 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:31:24 Or something like that.

Bronnie Ware 1:31:25 Or your perspective on it.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:31:26 Or your perspective.

Bronnie Ware 1:31:26 Yes. Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:31:27 Yeah. And again, just referencing that Dacher Keltner conversation- And this kind of idea that we don't have death front and center in a way that possibly we should. Possibly if we were all exposed to death a bit more, that we'd realize this is a part of life. And actually, in, in Daka's book, he shared the Japanese concept of wabi-sabi, which is this idea that all living creatures, living things go through a five-stage process. Um, creation, birth, growth, decay, death. And I was reading that in February of this year, so things were very, very raw for me.

Bronnie Ware 1:32:14 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:32:14 But I gotta say, reading that helped me.

Bronnie Ware 1:32:17 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:32:18 'Cause there was a brutality, there was a brutal honesty to it. It's like, oh, decay.

Bronnie Ware 1:32:24 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:32:24 Mom's body and brain is starting to decay.

Bronnie Ware 1:32:26 And so you could start accepting the changes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:32:28 Yeah.

Bronnie Ware 1:32:28 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:32:29 And it's, it's slightly counterintuitive, 'cause you're like, "Oh, man, that's too much," but I actually found it really helpful.

Bronnie Ware 1:32:34 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:32:34 I thought by putting words to what this is, I was like, yeah, Mom's had creation, birth, growth. Now she's on-

Bronnie Ware 1:32:43 On the fourth. Yes

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:32:44 ... the final path of decay-

Bronnie Ware 1:32:45 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:32:45 ... before at some point it will be death.

Bronnie Ware 1:32:47 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:32:48 Doesn't mean I find it easy.

Bronnie Ware 1:32:49 No, but it helps you-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:32:51 But it has helped

Bronnie Ware 1:32:51 ... intellectualize it a little bit.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:32:53 Yeah.

Bronnie Ware 1:32:53 Intellectualize it. Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:32:55 I mean,

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:32:55 Bronnie, listen. There, there are just so many concepts that come up from your work. We could speak for five hours.

Bronnie Ware 1:33:03 [laughs] I know.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:33:04 I know you've flown to the UK for just a few days. I don't know how you're dealing with jet lag, given that you come from Australia.

Bronnie Ware 1:33:10 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:33:11 How, how are you doing with your jet lag?

Bronnie Ware 1:33:12 Oh, not too bad. I'm just going to bed a bit earlier and still waking, you know, about 5:00, whereas I normally would wake about 6:00. But I'm okay. Um-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:33:20 You're okay

Bronnie Ware 1:33:20 ... Australians have, A- Australians have a different concept of distance, and, uh, because towns are a long way away, and, uh, you know, like, for me, I think, "Oh, yeah, Mom lives just down the road." It's an hour and a half drive down the road.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:33:34 Mm-hmm.

Bronnie Ware 1:33:34 And we'll drive down just for lunch some days and come back. And so I won't say I'm invincible, but, um, yeah, I mean, the second leg is only from Dubai to England, so that's, like, six hours after a 14-hour first leg. So I was like, "Ah."

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:33:49 It's all relative, isn't it?

Bronnie Ware 1:33:50 Yeah, it's, it's like, ah, I'm fine. I survived that one.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:33:53 Yeah.

Bronnie Ware 1:33:53 I'll be right. So yeah, I'm doing okay.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:33:55 Good.

Bronnie Ware 1:33:55 And, and I do live very gently.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:33:57 Yeah.

Bronnie Ware 1:33:57 I, I, I very much honor my limits, and, um, without, without using them as an excuse for laziness or anything like that, but knowing that, okay, if I'm going to show up, well, I have to have a, a good night's sleep or I have to not overload my days-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:34:15 Yeah

Bronnie Ware 1:34:15 ... and that sort of thing. I'm, I'm very, very... I've learnt to be very good at honoring limits, yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:34:21 The intention at the start was to unpick each one of those five regrets-

Bronnie Ware 1:34:25 [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:34:25 ... and we got waylaid. Maybe it's my fault, but that's the way these conversations go.

Bronnie Ware 1:34:30 Oh, there's no, there is.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:34:30 I kind of feel, though, we pretty much covered them all through our wandering conversation.

Bronnie Ware 1:34:37 I think so.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:34:38 Um, and of course, the book's there, where people can read about them in detail, and the various people you sat with and the things you learnt.

Bronnie Ware 1:34:46 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:34:46 It, it's an incredible book. I can see why it's been so impactful and continues to do so. This podcast is called Feel Better, Live More. When we feel better in ourselves, we get more out of our lives. Now, of course, when we can appreciate, like really appreciate the idea that we're going to die, arguably that's the most important thing we can do to help us be present and get the most out of our life.

Bronnie Ware 1:35:18 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:35:19 So right at the end, Bronnie, I always love to leave a few actionable ideas that people can think about. Maybe they can't apply them straight away, but at least if it helps them change their perspective a little bit and just encourages them to reflect on maybe there's a different way of doing things. I wonder right at the end, then, you know, do you have any final words of wisdom for people who may feel a bit stuck and a bit lost?

Bronnie Ware 1:35:48 Yeah, I would just say that they're allowed to be happy. Um, that they deserve their own permission to be happy. And, uh, and more than anything, to realize that they are going to die, that you are going to die, and every single day is a gift. There's people that can't even get outside today. They're not well enough, and they don't even get fresh air. So if you can find gratitude in whatever is going on, find some sort of gratitude in your life right now, then you're already on your way to, to living a regret-free life.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:36:29 Bronnie, you're doing incredible work. Thank you for coming on the podcast.

Bronnie Ware 1:36:33 Oh, it's been an absolute pleasure, Rangan. Thank you.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:36:35 [upbeat music] If you enjoyed that conversation, I think you're really going to enjoy this one from Jay Shetty on five powerful life lessons that people often learn too late.

Speaker 1:36:46 Just let that blow your mind for a moment. I will explain it, I promise. I'm not what I think I am. I'm not what you think I am. I am what I think you think I am, which means