Skip to content

By playing, you agree to uListen's Terms and Privacy Policy and YouTube's Terms of Service.

Dr Rangan ChatterjeeDr Rangan Chatterjee

"This Is Stealing Your Life" - A Key Thing Keeping You From A Life Of Meaning | Nihal Arthanayake

Today we’re going meta, as they say. Because this is a conversation about…conversation. More than that, it’s a deep and meaningful exchange about why effective, authentic dialogue is so important to humankind – and yet seemingly in decline.

Dr. Rangan ChatterjeehostNihal Arthanayakeguest
Apr 24, 20241h 53mWatch on YouTube

Summaries, chapters, transcripts, and FAQs on this page are made by uListen, not YouTube.

Great conversations run long. Their best ideas don't have to.

uListen is free on iPhone, iPad, Android, Chrome, and Claude.

See how

Transcript

  1. 0:00 – 2:25

    Why “better conversations” matter more than bigger houses

    1. RC

      I've been thinking about where to start our conversation

    2. NA

      Mm. It's always the hard bit.

    3. RC

      I've been reading the conclusion to-

    4. NA

      Yeah

    5. RC

      ... your book this morning, and in your conclusion, you say this, "Alongside wanting a better body, a nicer car, a bigger house, and more respectful children, why not try aspiring to have better conversations?" And it was interesting for me in how if we think about improving our lives, I think people think about all kinds of things, but they don't think about improving the way that they conduct their conversations.

    6. NA

      Mm. Yeah.

    7. RC

      Why do you think that needs to change?

    8. NA

      Well, I think it's really interesting because I'm a professional conversationalist, as indeed are you. But quite often the conversations we have at home, I think especially with our partners, become about function. They're functional conversations. They're transactional. And I had to be really, really conscious of the fact and went to marriage counseling for it to really overcome that transactional nature of a conversation with my partner, with my wife, who you know, and see her. And ultimately, what a great conversation is, is about feeling seen and making that person in front of you feel seen. So whether it's the nonverbal communication that we have or whether the eye-to-eye contact, it's about making that person feel valued in that moment. And I think that at a time where the loneliest group in the UK are sixteen to twenty-four-year-olds, you have to think to yourself, "Why are we not connecting with each other?" And perhaps we're not connecting with each other because we don't give enough time for conversation. It's quite easy, isn't it, to just be on that phone? And I'm super glad that we're here now, and maybe we'll talk about it later. There are no phones on this table.

    9. RC

      Mm.

    10. NA

      There are no phones on this table, and phones have impacted upon our ability to communicate with each other in a meaningful way more than any other implement in human history. You know, we can be together alone, Rangan, right?

    11. RC

      Mm.

    12. NA

      Together alone, right?

    13. RC

      Yeah.

    14. NA

      And that's something we have to be really careful of.

  2. 2:25 – 3:09

    Loneliness, “together alone,” and how phones disrupt connection

    1. RC

      You mentioned loneliness, and whilst I've been reading your book and thinking about our conversation, I was thinking about this spectrum that exists in society, how on one hand, you mentioned that young group, sixteen to twenty-five-year-olds, right? But even beyond that age group-

    2. NA

      Mm

    3. RC

      ... we are more lonely now than ever before. It is a loneliness epidemic.

    4. NA

      Yeah.

    5. RC

      And I had that in mind as I was reading your book, Nihal, 'cause I thought, "Wow, on one side, you have loneliness. On the other extreme, you have great conversation." Because if you have the ability to have great conversation, you could argue that we would feel a lot less lonely.

  3. 3:09 – 5:41

    Why social media isn’t dialogue: performative monologues and monetized attention

    1. NA

      Unless we've fooled ourselves into thinking those machines in our hands are connectors. And in some ways they are, but posting on social media is not conversation. People who troll me on social media will say, when I just tell them to go away, will say, "Well, that's weird, you wrote a book about conversation," as if they've kind of-

    2. RC

      Mm

    3. NA

      ... done a gotcha on me. And I always reply to them, "You're fooling yourself if you think we're having a conversation here."

    4. RC

      Mm.

    5. NA

      Social media is performative. It's actually a series of monologues. It's not a dialogue. It's not what you and I are doing here, and you fool yourself into thinking that you are, and that goes across all kinds of social media. Do you notice when you're walking through a shopping mall, the kind of restaurant area, right? Have you noticed how many people who are sitting in front of each other, Rangan, are not looking at each other? They're looking at their phones. Have you noticed in a restaurant, you look over and there's a group perhaps of younger people or even older people, and they're not talking to each other?

    6. RC

      Together alone.

    7. NA

      Together alone, right? Together alone. So we're fooling ourselves, and we're being drawn into this. After all, what is a mobile phone designed to do? It's a piece of hardware. But the software, what is that designed to do? It is designed to monetize your eyeballs. That's what it's there for.

    8. RC

      Mm.

    9. NA

      Right? And the apps will monetize the amount of time you spend looking at that phone. If you're not looking at that phone, and you're talking to me, and I'm talking to you, how can we be advertised to?

    10. RC

      Yeah.

    11. NA

      Can't be. So it has to be addictive. Has to be. And we have a choice to say no. We have a choice to say, actually, to go back to your first point, loneliness here, conversation here, to say, "Well, let's move towards each other."

    12. RC

      Mm.

    13. NA

      Let's move towards each other, or let us who are conversationalists move towards those who are lonely and say, "Come and talk to us. Come and spend time with us." You know as a medical professional the power of conversation, right? To people who are vulnerable, scared, lonely. You teach it, in fact-

    14. RC

      Mm

    15. NA

      ... to doctors how to be better conversationalists. I mean, your previous guest, Charles Duhigg, talked about communicators. I say conversationalist. That's what I say.

  4. 5:41 – 9:45

    Growth mindset for conversation: talking vs listening to understand

    1. RC

      You also said at the start that you're a professional conversationalist-

    2. NA

      Yes

    3. RC

      ... and I am also a professional conversationalist. Now, I imagine that you may have meant or people may have interpreted that as me as a podcaster and you as a radio host, right? But I've reflected over the past six years of doing this podcast as to why I enjoy it so much, why I feel really comfortable in this setting more and more, and I thought, "Well, I spent over two decades talking to patients," and I actually don't see this interaction as... It's not as different as you might initially think. I see this as an extended doctor-patient relationship, which is what? It's a relationship. It's an interaction. And I think that's what's always drawn me to medicine. What I've enjoyed the most about medicine is actually not the fancy high-tech stuff. I love people. I've always loved meeting-

    4. NA

      Mm

    5. RC

      ... that person-

    6. NA

      Yeah, yeah

    7. RC

      ... and trying to understand why they've come in. So when you say professional conversationalist, I guess my question to you is, given that conversation, the ability to have good quality conversation, is the foundation of any good quality relationship, should we not all aspire to be more like professional conversationalists?

    8. NA

      So going back to Charles Duhigg, he said we're all hardwired to be great communicators, right? And I totally agree with that. And, you know, I know the school that you went to was very much about a growth mindset, right, not a fixed mindset.

    9. RC

      Mm.

    10. NA

      So as I write in the book, it was Carol Dweck, I think, who came up with that, the academic. A growth mindset is saying, "Through hard work, perseverance, knowledge, I'll get to where I need to get to." Fixed mindset is, "Whatever I do, I'm just never gonna be good at this," right? And I fully believe that you must have a growth mindset when it comes to conversation. You can be better at it. You can, 100%. Interesting you spent... You said you spent two decades talking to patients, right? The question I'd put back to you is, can you say categorically that you spent two decades listening to patients? 'Cause talking to and listening, they're two different things.

    11. RC

      What's the difference?

    12. NA

      Well, I can talk to you, talk to you, talk to you, talk to you, talk to you. You then talk back to me, and I go, "Okay." I'll break it down even simpler, right? My daughter came home with this from school, right? Are you listening to respond or are you listening to understand, right? Now, you could be talking because all you're doing is listening to respond.

    13. RC

      Mm.

    14. NA

      So I'm just waiting my time, Rangan Chatterjee, until you finish talking 'cause I want to get a point across, right? So that's talking. That's just talking, right?

    15. RC

      Mm-hmm.

    16. NA

      But if I say, "I'm actually listening to understand," which is what you teach doctors, right? That's the difference between talking and listening, right? Are you talking to respond or are you talking to understand? And you know, 'cause you've come across it, 'cause you wouldn't have to teach these courses, there will be people who are only talking to respond.

    17. RC

      To answer your question, over those 20 years, have I been truly listening or doing more talking? Again, it's impossible for me to look at every single interaction-

    18. NA

      For sure

    19. RC

      ... and say, you know... Of course, I would like to think-

    20. NA

      Of course

    21. RC

      ... that I did a lot of listening, but it's probably something I got better at-

    22. NA

      Of course

    23. RC

      ... as I progressed, which I guess speaks to what you're saying.

    24. NA

      And you're still learning.

    25. RC

      Yeah. It's a skill that we can all get better at.

    26. NA

      Yeah.

  5. 9:45 – 15:17

    What makes a conversation effective: hot-air balloons, dog walkers, and Wi‑Fi codes

    1. RC

      There is a part in your book, I think when you talk to Tanya Byron about why conversations fail, right?

    2. NA

      Yes.

    3. RC

      I found that really interesting. We're gonna talk about how we can have great conversations, but in terms of why they fail, through the lens of a doctor-patient relationship, I think often what gets in the way of a conversation is our own inner dialogue, our own insecurities, our own fears. So if a-

    4. NA

      Projection, as they call it, I think, psycho-

    5. RC

      Yes. So if a, if a patient comes in, and I as a young doctor is not entirely sure what's going on, instead of sitting with that and dealing with that and trying to potentially say to your patient, "Actually, I don't know. I'm gonna try and find out for you," we try and shut down and just talk to the patient, which is, I think, one of the reasons why patients often go out feeling unheard. Not all the time, but much of the time because there was too much talking and not enough listening.

    6. NA

      So one of our guests, he's a scientist, once said to me, "I'm acutely aware of the vastness of my ignorance," right? And I think that applies to what we're talking about here, in that if you're acutely aware of that vastness, then you will be brave enough to say to that patient, "I don't know, and I'm going to find out for you."

    7. RC

      Yeah.

    8. NA

      But if, on the other hand, you are that insecurity, that worry that you are going to project a sense of weakness, a lack of knowledge onto a patient, and they're then going to project onto you, "I don't trust you"-

    9. RC

      Mm

    10. NA

      ... then that's a terrible way to be communicating with each other because ultimately you want authenticity. And interestingly, one of the other guests in my book, uh, Professor Elizabeth Stokoe from Loughborough University, when I said to her, "What's a good conversation and what's a bad conversation?" She said, "We don't use words like that. What is an effective conversation and what is a less effective conversation?" And you as a medical professional, you apt-- this is so apt to what you do, right?

    11. RC

      Mm.

    12. NA

      Because an effective conversation is the one where the patient fully understands what the issue is- And if you don't know that answer, you'll say, "I will go and get that for you." So they then are not being blagged essentially.

    13. RC

      Yeah.

    14. NA

      They're being told very clearly, "That part of it we don't understand yet. I will go and discover that, and we will get back to you on that." The ineffective one is where you, you just kind of go around the houses. She uses this brilliant... Paint this image, right?

    15. RC

      Yeah.

    16. NA

      So you're in a hot air balloon, right? You're in the basket, and you're looking down at this field, right? And there's a, this field's a square, and in either corner is a gate, right? So in walks a dog walker, right? The dog walker has got this kind of ball on a stick or something, and the dog's chasing it around, and the dog walker's having to go after it and run after it, et cetera. And then it's just going, and it's a hassle, and it takes ages to get from one corner to another, right? Then another dog walker comes in and walks with the dog. The dog walks right by their side. They go on this path, this well-worn path that goes right through from one corner to another, right? That's the difference between an effective conversation and an ineffective conversation, and you know what the ineffective conversation is-

    17. RC

      Yeah

    18. NA

      ... in terms of that. It's a very simple image, but that's what you're trying to get. She also gives us another example, right, in the book. You walk into a coffee shop. I know you like your coffee, right? You go in and ask for a coffee. Person says, "Yeah, there's a coffee."

    19. RC

      Yeah.

    20. NA

      Then they go... Then you have to say to them, "Do you have Wi-Fi?" And then they go, "Yes." And then you go, "Well, c- can I have the Wi-Fi code, please?" [laughs] Right? Right? By this stage, you're kind of annoyed, right? Like, you're like-

    21. RC

      Yeah

    22. NA

      ... "Really?" She did this. This happened to her, Professor Elizabeth Stoker. She then went into another coffee shop. She asked for her coffee. The person on the other side said, "Here's your coffee. Oh, and if you need Wi-Fi, we have it. There's the Wi-Fi code." Right? That is the difference between an ineffective and an effective conversation-

    23. RC

      Mm

    24. NA

      ... right there, right? It's not a meaningful conversation. It's not deep. I'm not asking you about how your parents are and how, you know, I've lost my dog and all of that kind of stuff. It's an effective conversation.

    25. RC

      So therefore, what we define as effective is gonna depend on the context.

    26. NA

      Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Ooh. Ooh, okay, that's an interesting point, isn't it? Okay. So if you came to me and said, "I want some coffee," and I said the Wi-Fi thing-

    27. RC

      Mm

    28. NA

      ... that's, that's effective. If you came to me and said, "My dad has died," right, then I still have to be effective-

    29. RC

      Mm

    30. NA

      ... right? I still have to help you, and that's a much more difficult conversation to have, but I have to still use my words incredibly thoughtfully-

  6. 15:17 – 25:16

    Words as tools: language’s power and the health case for connection

    1. NA

      Right? Okay, not because I'm a counselor, but because what I don't want to do is m- make it worse for you, not that I probably could make it any worse for you. But I have to be incredibly thoughtful. Another guy in the book who's a, you know, he's a captain of industry. He's the chairman of NatWest, uh, Rick Haythorne Thwaites. When he went to America to an elite university after Oxford, and he was gathered there with these kind of consultants, right, that were just saying to all of these really high-achieving individuals-

    2. RC

      Mm

    3. NA

      ... right? It's back in the '80s. "You will never pick up a hammer. You will never pick up a saw. Your tools are your words, so choose them wisely." I mean, that's profound-

    4. RC

      Yeah

    5. NA

      ... right?

    6. RC

      It reminds me of something at the start of your book where you quoted a professor who gave a TEDx talk, and I think he said that language is one of the greatest technologies ever invented.

    7. NA

      Oh. This is why I'm an evangelist of conversation and for the art of it because we have seen historically what is possible, Rangan-

    8. RC

      Yeah

    9. NA

      ... through conversation. It is mind-blowing. It makes the hairs on the back of my neck stand up right now as I'm talking to you when I think what has been achieved through conversation. My history lecturer said to me in the '90s, "Apartheid will never, ever finish."

    10. RC

      Really?

    11. NA

      Yeah. He said that to me in the... It, it would've been the late '80s, right, or 1990. J- just before it did, in fact. Couple of years before it did. He said, "It's always been there. People have always kind of tried to campaign about it. It will always be there." It wasn't.

    12. RC

      Yeah.

    13. NA

      Right? And they didn't go to war. There was violence, without question, and also the Truth and Reconcili- ation Commission that happened after the fall of apartheid, through understanding, through dialogue, through conversation. Look what we can achieve as humans.

    14. RC

      Yeah.

    15. NA

      But equally, look what we can do when we have ineffective conversations. Look what happens to us as people.

    16. RC

      What's the health case for better conversation?

    17. NA

      Oh, mate, I mean, we talked about loneliness. You will know the health implications of loneliness and isolation, right?

    18. RC

      Yeah.

    19. NA

      Blood pressure, heart disease, various cancers can be linked directly to depression, loneliness. So in terms of connection, the health case for conversation is how it makes us feel-

    20. RC

      Mm

    21. NA

      ... and how the connection between our mental wellbeing and our physical wellbeing is beyond discussion-

    22. RC

      Yeah

    23. NA

      ... right? Like-

    24. RC

      Yeah

    25. NA

      ... it's just that's done now, right? We know that. And in order to connect with each other and feel less as if we are disconnected from society, we have to be able to ... converse with each other-

    26. RC

      Mm-hmm

    27. NA

      ... and understand the importance of that. So, I mean, oxytocin, right?

    28. RC

      Mm.

    29. NA

      That hormone that's in our brain, the, the pleasure hormone, the cuddle hormone-

    30. RC

      Yeah

  7. 25:16 – 39:09

    Male friendship, vulnerability, and the discomfort of saying “I miss you”

    1. NA

      Well, that's interesting. So, so we seek dopamine hits, right? So then if we can't find the dopamine from conversation because we're not seeking it out, and I think this might be particularly a problem for men-

    2. RC

      Mm

    3. NA

      ... you know. Um, we'll find it elsewhere. I think that's a really interesting point, and not a connection I've thought about before, but it does make sense. I mean, we did a, a show about male loneliness, and I think men find it very difficult to tell other men that we miss them. I miss you.

    4. RC

      Mm.

    5. NA

      You might have to add bruv on the end of it or bro on it to make it-

    6. RC

      I, I-

    7. NA

      ... feel a bit more macho

    8. RC

      ... I would say I'm pretty open, but I honestly don't think I've told any one of my close male friends before that I've missed them.

    9. NA

      Right. Why? And have you? You probably have missed them.

    10. RC

      Yeah.

    11. NA

      Right. So why haven't you told them?

    12. RC

      I guess it would be cultural. It would be what we think is the norm. You know, how do guys interact? How have we previously interacted? You know, it's interesting because my really tight group of friends, we, we all live in different parts.

    13. NA

      Scattered.

    14. RC

      We're all scattered, right?

    15. NA

      Right.

    16. RC

      We, we're all from... It's all from our time at Edinburgh University, basically. And we are realizing more and more as we get into sort of mid-late 40s that actually we need to meet up regularly. And actually, when we last met up in November in Wales for the weekend, I would say that we were the most open and honest that we've ever been before, and I think it's probably 'cause we're all craving something. It was less of the male bravado, and it was actually us really sharing stuff, like stuff that we're struggling with, stuff that's going well, stuff that's not going well. But going back to your point, I don't think any one of us have directly said, "I miss you." We might say, "Oh guys, this feels great. We should do it more often." But I don't think any one of us would, would yet go to that next step and say, "Oh, I missed you."

    17. NA

      So what about I love you?

    18. RC

      Now, we, we... [laughs] It's interesting 'cause you say that, I'm thinking, no, I don't think I've said that to my tight group of friends before.

    19. NA

      So this is real... Do you love them?

    20. RC

      Yeah, I do love them.

    21. NA

      Right. So the... How fascinating is this, right? So I'm talking to Dr. Rangan Chatterjee, right? One of the most open-hearted, open-minded with strangers, right? You get people on here, you talk to people, you talk about their lives, but yet you have never told any of your closest friends that you miss them or you love them. Not once.

    22. RC

      Yeah, it's pretty mental, isn't it? Now, could one argue and say, okay, Nihal, but can we perhaps show that in different ways? So for example, not everyone communicates in the same way. And maybe this is a male thing. Maybe, maybe I'm projecting now. I think we all know that we care about each other and that we're all gonna be there for each other. So I guess the question to you then is what is the benefit for me or any of my friends to say to each other, "I love you and I miss you"?

    23. NA

      I think it is to go against the male conditioning that has told you it's not all right to say those things, and to say that thing in a way that... My wife has no trouble saying how much she loves her friends to them, right? She's no trouble with that. And I can imagine how... I can see it in your face-

    24. RC

      Yeah

    25. NA

      ... how awkward the idea is.

    26. RC

      Yeah.

    27. NA

      When I said, "I, yeah, I love you," you laughed.

    28. RC

      [laughs]

    29. NA

      Like literally, this is so like-

    30. RC

      Yeah, I was, I was thinking about phoning up someone, one of my mates tonight-

  8. 39:09 – 46:02

    When someone dies: why calling (and listening) beats posting

    1. RC

      But I guess, you know, leaning into that discomfort, that's massive when we're thinking about conversations, right? You mentioned before about this coffee shop scenario where the barista says hello and gives you the Wi-Fi password. But you-- we also discussed the scenario where someone comes in and tells the barista that their dad has just died, and that would require a different response for that to be an effective conversation and effective bit of communication, right? Our internal discomfort to say the wrong thing often gets in the way of us having meaningful conversations, and I would say grief is one of those situations. Let's say a friend's father or mother has died, right? Or we hear about someone dying. I know for a fact that many people, they don't communicate because they're scared. They don't know what to say. This is so common. "Uh, well, I didn't know what to say," so they say nothing, or they say something really, you know, mundane, you know, because they, they don't wanna lean into that discomfort. So leaning into discomfort is huge, isn't it? So if someone is in that situation, Nihal, how do the tools in your book, how, how does this idea that we need to have better conversations, how does that play into the scenario where someone's just heard that their friend's dog or their parent has died and they don't know what to say? How would, how would you advise them?

    2. NA

      So I've seen this a lot whereby someone posts on social media that a loved one has died, and then everyone puts the message on there, right? "So sorry for your loss," "Heartbroken," "Sending love," "Sending hugs," et cetera, et cetera. When I see that, as-- if I know this person, I call them.

    3. RC

      Mm.

    4. NA

      I call them, and they pick up the phone, and I say, "I've just seen that your dad has died, and I just wanted to call you and talk to you." And after they burst into tears, 'cause that's usually what happens, there is silence. You don't jump into that silence. They're gathering their thoughts. They're processing the fact that they've lost their dad, but they're also uplifted by the fact that someone has reached out to them in human connection. You're not going to solve this. So you don't get ups... You don't get nervous and say, "I'm not gonna call," because you can't solve it. You're not there to solve it. The simple act of reaching out to them in itself is a form of love. So you don't have to. And men are often like this, aren't we?

    5. RC

      Mm-hmm.

    6. NA

      We're solution-based, right?

    7. RC

      Mm.

    8. NA

      So the reason I'm not gonna call is 'cause I don't know what to say, right? But it's not about what you say in that context. It's about you just being there and reaching out and giving someone the space to communicate. And what happened with my friend Louis was he just started to talk about his dad, and I started to ask him questions like I would ask you about yourself-

    9. RC

      Mm-hmm

    10. NA

      ... about his dad. And he then told me more about his dad. So in some ways, it's almost as if you begin to interview that person, and that's the thing you're terrified of, right?

    11. RC

      Mm-hmm.

    12. NA

      Because you're thinking, "Well, I don't want to compound his grief," but you're not gonna make his grief any worse.

    13. RC

      Mm-hmm.

    14. NA

      Don't kid yourself. If you go into it thinking, "I don't know what to say," that's almost as if you've made it about you, but it's not about you, it's about them. And the greatest thing that you can do for them in that moment is to show that you care. So don't go-

    15. RC

      Mm-hmm

    16. NA

      ... into it saying to yourself, "Right, I have a three-step plan. When I call Louis about his dad, firstly, I'll do this, secondly, I'll do this, and thirdly, by the end of it, he'll be happy again." [laughs] 'Cause we know that's-

    17. RC

      Yeah

    18. NA

      ... not the case, right? You're not calling someone through... when they're going through grief to solve it. Because I've lost a father and I've lost a dog, right? I'm not comparing my father to a dog, but the grief that you feel never really goes away.

    19. RC

      Mm-hmm.

    20. NA

      You know, if I was to now spend 15, 20 minutes talking about how much I love my dad, I'd almost certainly cry again, right?

    21. RC

      Mm-hmm.

    22. NA

      It never leaves you. So that person who calls, I'm telling you now, mate, I did it with another friend, Tim, when he lost his dad. I went out with him. I just went out and we had a drink, and we spoke to each other. And you know what? We didn't really. I just listened.

    23. RC

      Mm-hmm.

    24. NA

      I just sat there and listened, and they poured it all out, and that was the greatest gift I could have given him. Better than a-

    25. RC

      Yeah

    26. NA

      ... flowers, better than turning up at the wake. Just listened. And The Art of Talking, this book's called Let's Talk, Rangan, but it actually could have been called Let's Listen.

    27. RC

      Yeah. Yeah. That's really powerful. The first thing that struck me when you were talking there, Nihal, is you were talking about the social media post and all the comments and how you don't add to that. You picked up the phone to talk to him, and I think that's a point that a lot of us miss. You touched on it earlier in the conversation as well. Social media, for most of us, I appreciate some people may have a different perspective on this, for most of us, it's often not the right medium to have the types of conversations we're trying to have on them, and we kid ourselves-

    28. NA

      Yes. You're not having a conversation

    29. RC

      ... that it is. I, I'm-

    30. NA

      Yeah

  9. 46:02 – 53:06

    Conversations in extremis: Northern Ireland and finding common ground

    1. RC

      I'm like, "No, this is not the right medium." There's a part in this book now, the, the middle section, Conversations in Extremis-

    2. NA

      Yeah

    3. RC

      ... which I found utterly fascinating.

    4. NA

      A lot of people do, yeah.

    5. RC

      And it's about difficult conversations.

    6. NA

      Mm-hmm.

    7. RC

      And you talk about Mary McAleese, the-

    8. NA

      Yeah, former president of Ireland. Yeah

    9. RC

      ... Dia Khan.

    10. NA

      Documentary filmmaker.

    11. RC

      And John Sutherland.

    12. NA

      Crisis negotiator of the Met. Mm-hmm.

    13. RC

      Now, I wanted to bring those three people up because I think when you go to the extremes in anything in life, you can learn lessons that then apply to everyone.

    14. NA

      100%.

    15. RC

      So I wonder if you could talk-

    16. NA

      Oh, wow

    17. RC

      ... a little bit about that section and-

    18. NA

      Oh, I love that you picked out this section. So Mary McAleese at some point sat opposite people who not that long before would have gladly killed her and her family, and in fact, there were attempts on her father's life in, uh, Northern Ireland. And she said, "Look, we didn't start our communication, our dialogue with the guys who were way out on the fringes," right? The real extremists. You didn't start them. You started with the people who through intelligence, but not in a kind of weird surreptitious way, but those people who were most open to the idea of sitting down. And what was the commonality that they all had, right? And this is really important in conversation, especially difficult conversations, is where is the commonality? Because so often when we have difficult conversations, we only focus on those things that separate us.

    19. RC

      Mm-hmm.

    20. NA

      Right? Whereas what she did was she and those around the table agreed on one thing, and that one thing was that they didn't want their children to have the future that they had had as children, right? They didn't want history to be repeated. They didn't want their children to s- grow up surrounded by bombs and army check posts. They didn't want any of that. And that they could agree on.

    21. RC

      And for people who are not familiar with the troubles in Northern Ireland-

    22. NA

      Yeah

    23. RC

      ... maybe listeners in other parts of the world-

    24. NA

      Indeed, indeed

    25. RC

      ... just sort of set the scene for them in terms of what was going on.

    26. NA

      So there was a period- In Northern Ireland where, which was called The Troubles. So the island of Ireland is split into two, with Northern Ireland, which is a part of the UK, and Southern Ireland, which is a country, uh, a sovereign country of its own. But Northern Ireland had a Catholic population. It was predominantly Protestant, and there was essentially a civil war taking place. And that civil war was incredibly violent between Catholics and Protestants. There are segregated housing, segregated schooling, and Mary McAleese, as a Catholic, was born into that.

    27. RC

      Mm.

    28. NA

      Those troubles started in the late '60s. They went right through, really, until the Good Friday Agreement in 1998, I think, and throughout that period, thousands of people were killed.

    29. RC

      Mm.

    30. NA

      You know, extreme violence took place on both parts.

  10. 53:06 – 1:07:10

    Talking to neo-Nazis: curiosity, needs, and overcoming your own bias

    1. NA

      But it isn't all of who you are. You know, going back to in extremist, Deeyah Khan is a brown-skinned Muslim woman. She's a documentary filmmaker, an Emmy Award-winning-

    2. RC

      Mm

    3. NA

      ... documentary filmmaker. The reason I mention her gender and ethnicity is because sh- and her faith, she's Muslim, is because she decided to spend time with American neo-Nazis. You can imagine how much they loathed her and the labels attached to her, Muslim, Pakistani heritage. All of the things that they would think, invader, terrorist-

    4. RC

      Mm

    5. NA

      ... all of these terms. She actively sought out to engage with them to try and understand how they became these people. How brave is that, Rangan?

    6. RC

      Do you know why she did that?

    7. NA

      She said, "I can hold a placard up in a square and say, 'Down with Nazis. No more Nazis,'" right? "But what do I actually want? I want less Nazis in the world."

    8. RC

      Mm.

    9. NA

      Is holding that placard up gonna give me less Nazis in the world? Or going to talk to them to understand how they became Nazis, challenge some of those, explore commonality rather than difference-

    10. RC

      Mm

    11. NA

      ... what will that result in? And weirdly, and just brilliantly, because I write in the book- How utterly life-affirming this documentary she made-

    12. RC

      Mm-hmm

    13. NA

      ... called White Rite: Meeting the Enemy, right? Is that at the end of it, a, a, a few of those neo-Nazis said, "We're leaving the organizations."

    14. RC

      Mm.

    15. NA

      "We no longer feel it's 'cause you're a Muslim, but we were taught all this stuff about Muslims. We were taught that the reason our family, the reason that I am now going to be poorer than my parents' generation, I was taught that that's because of immigrants, because of Muslims," right? But actually isn't, is it? 'Cause the Hispanic or the African American working class person is exactly the same boat that I'm in.

    16. RC

      Mm.

    17. NA

      Right? And that whole divide and rule thing. She got through that.

    18. RC

      Yeah.

    19. NA

      It's amazing. It's brave.

    20. RC

      Yeah. What I love is the, the first thing you said there, which was she had to ask herself, "What is the outcome I actually want?"

    21. NA

      Right.

    22. RC

      And that may seem like quite an extreme situation, but let's just bring that back to a situation that most people can relate to, let's say a marriage, a romantic partnership, right? Where there is a disagreement or there is conflict. So much of the time we're trying to prove that we're right, that our point of view is the correct one. As you say, if the outcome you deserve from a conversation is for the person to become more like you, it should be self-evident that the conversation is doomed. That's kind of most marital conflicts, right?

    23. NA

      Yeah.

    24. RC

      But if you take a step back and say, "Wait a minute, what's the outcome here?" Well, most of the time I hope the outcome is, I want a harmonious relationship with my partner.

    25. NA

      Mm.

    26. RC

      Being right doesn't necessarily fit with that solution. And so I think that's the first thing that was quite interesting for me to, to hear about her rationale. There was a, there was a section when you were writing about Diya Khan where she said, I believe, that both sides must possess what the other one needs.

    27. NA

      Mm.

    28. RC

      And I found that so powerful. I thought, "Wow, that's really interesting." And, and, and it broadened it out. I thought in every conversation, in any deep meaningful conversation, it's that important that we have to acknowledge on, on one level that both of us have got something that the other one needs. I mean, maybe speak to that a little bit, Nihal.

    29. NA

      Yeah. But also I think, I think Mary McAleese's point was that you're brought up with a certain narrative of history which makes you believe that you're right.

    30. RC

      Mm.

  11. 1:07:10 – 1:21:33

    Active listening in real life: the “Ting” symbol and small moments of being seen

    1. RC

      in the description box below. Active listening. You've just mentioned this German, uh, symbol.

    2. NA

      Sign language for empathy, yeah.

    3. RC

      There's also a Chinese symbol-

    4. NA

      Oh, yes

    5. RC

      ... for listening-

    6. NA

      Yes

    7. RC

      ... in the book, which is super, super powerful. So can you, first of all, say what it is?

    8. NA

      Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    9. RC

      And explain what, what it means, basically.

    10. NA

      Oh, yeah. So this is great. So this comes from John Sutherland, right, who is one of the most beautiful human beings you'll ever meet, right? A former chief superintendent at the Metropolitan Police. He's written several books, uh, fiction, nonfiction. He's a truly lovely man. But he was a crisis negotiator, so hostage taking, very strange scenarios that he would have to be involved in.

    11. RC

      Mm.

    12. NA

      And he was the guy that you would call up. He was also the guy that taught at Hendon, which is the London Metropolitan Police's big training headquarters in North London. And he showed me, when I interviewed him for this book, and specifically this chapter in Extremis, this Chinese symbol Ting. And this is a pictogram, and there are four sections. And essentially, what active listening breaks down as is firstly-

    13. RC

      Yeah

    14. NA

      ... it's the ears to listen, right? So far, so obvious. It's then the eyes to see. Again, nonverbal, so obvious. But then it gets super interesting. Then it gets into the territory of what is active listening.

    15. RC

      Mm.

    16. NA

      The Chinese believe that you're not listening unless you engage with your mind, but also with your heart. So this symbol-

    17. RC

      Mm

    18. NA

      ... the four sections of it, are your eyes, your ears, your heart, and your mind.

    19. RC

      So you listen with all four.

    20. NA

      All four. But just think about listening with your heart. If I say that I'm listening with my heart, what do you think that means?

    21. RC

      I mean, it means many things to me, Nihal. It means you are ... To, to me, it means that you're feeling into the conversation. You're not just hearing the words or seeing the body language, you're feeling the energy behind all of that. What's behind what's being said. To me, that's what I... what, what comes up for me when I think about listening with your heart.

    22. NA

      So then that-

    23. RC

      You can also say love, though, right?

    24. NA

      Yeah. Yeah.

    25. RC

      Listening with love.

    26. NA

      Well, that's the thing, isn't it? But also-

    27. RC

      But it means many things. It's very evocative.

    28. NA

      It is. It is. But how vulnerable do you have to be to listen with your heart, do you think? 'Cause you have to feel.

    29. RC

      Yeah. Very, very. I think you do.

    30. NA

      And that's quite a difficult place to be, isn't it? Because it makes you vulnerable. When I'm listening to you, now we're in this kind of, um, format, but if we were talking about how... your parent's health, right? When I'm listening to you, I have to also imagine what it would feel like for me.

  12. 1:21:33 – 1:53:00

    Social media pile-ons, monetized division, and ending with ‘start by listening’

    1. RC

      short-term change, but can those changes become a fundamental part of our life? Often they don't, and that's why in this free guide, I share with you the six crucial steps you need to take. They're really, really effective. If you wanna get hold of that free guide right now, all you have to do is click the link in the description box below. You mentioned social media, Nihal. I've been following you on social media for a number of years, and-

    2. NA

      Me you

    3. RC

      ... and there have been-

    4. NA

      Very different trajectories. [laughs]

    5. RC

      Well-

    6. NA

      [laughs] Sorry

    7. RC

      ... well, there's been many, many occasions where you have been at the center of blowups-

    8. NA

      Yeah

    9. RC

      ... shall we say.

    10. NA

      Pile-on. Yeah.

    11. RC

      Pile-ons.

    12. NA

      Yeah.

    13. RC

      Okay. So you've written this fantastic book on connection and how we can have better conversations. Has writing that book changed how you interact and engage on social media?

    14. NA

      Um, what it's made me realize is, is that I'm not interacting on social media, that it is not a form of communication that is effective or will give me joy, right? It's functional in that I have 100,000 plus on, um, X and j- I've gone over to Threads, which is a much nicer place, which, you know, is 10,000 and 40-odd thousand on Instagram. But what I realized by writing this book was that I'd fooled myself into thinking I could have conversations on social media, and I can't.

    15. RC

      'Cause I've seen you for years trying.

    16. NA

      Yeah. I have.

    17. RC

      Yeah.

    18. NA

      I've wasted, m- if I add it all together, probably months of my life arguing essentially with people who are complete strangers, who are usually anonymous-

    19. RC

      [laughs]

    20. NA

      ... uh, who will not change their mind, and they won't change my mind.

    21. RC

      And it... Let, let's just be really clear there. They probably won't change their mind in that setting-

    22. NA

      No

    23. RC

      ... because as we've just seen with you talking about Diya Khan, right?

    24. NA

      100%.

    25. RC

      People do change their minds-

    26. NA

      100%

    27. RC

      ... but the setting has to be right.

    28. NA

      Yeah.

    29. RC

      And that's something that actually that I didn't touch on when you spoke about Mary. It's really interesting that she would have the paramilitaries coming through the front door.

    30. NA

      Yes.

Episode duration: 1:53:00

In the uListen app, the transcript lights up word by word as you listen. Get uListen

Transcript of episode NmjcXrEvCyc

Get more out of YouTube videos.

Read along on your phone, search it beside the video, or ask your favorite AI app what was said.

iOSAndroidClaudeChatGPTChrome