“This Is Worse Than Alcohol – And You’re Eating It Every Day” | Dr. Robert Lustig

1. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee0:00

   Sugar and alcohol, I don't think people commonly would put the two things together. People, I think, like, you know, Joe Public, I think would, would think, "Okay, alcohol I know if I drink too much, it's not good for me. It's gonna cause problems with my liver."

2. RLDr. Robert Lustig0:18

   Right.

3. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee0:18

   "I think there's that understanding, and if I drink a little bit, have some days off a week, you know, you know, the odd glass of wine here and there is probably not gonna be too bad for me," I think is what most people tend to think.

4. RLDr. Robert Lustig0:29

   That's true. Now, and, and, and that, and if that were the case, that would be true. And that's true for about the 40% of Americans who are social drinkers. You know, 40% are teetotalers, don't touch the stuff. Okay. 40% are social drinkers, can pick up a beer, put it down, like me. Okay. But 10% are binge drinkers and 10% are hardcore alcoholics.

5. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee0:48

   Yeah. But I don't think people think of sugar in the same way in terms of what it does for the liver. Um, and, and I think that's, that's a really, I think, eye-opening comparison for a lot of people. The other thing you said which I think really beautifully ties into the start of this conversation is that you started running an insulin reduction clinic.

6. RLDr. Robert Lustig1:11

   Right.

7. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:12

   And, you know, like you, I'm very passionate in root causes, and-

8. RLDr. Robert Lustig1:16

   Right. Right

9. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:16

   ... this idea that we've labeled all these so-called separate diseases. We get taught about them at medical school as, "Oh, they're all separate entities. For this disease, you-

10. RLDr. Robert Lustig1:24

    Right

11. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:24

    ... you take this drug, and you have this sort of treatment." And we look at that downstream pathology, don't we? But you mentioned mitochondria at the start in terms of what sugar or excess sugar can do to mitochondria, and that, you know, mitochondrial dysfunction sits at the heart of so many different conditions-

12. RLDr. Robert Lustig1:42

    Right

13. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:42

    ... but also insulin resistance, right? So that insulin-

14. RLDr. Robert Lustig1:45

    Right

15. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:45

    ... resistance, that insulin lowering clinic actually would probably, depending on who was coming in, and I appreciate you're a pediatrician, but if, if all of us as doctors ran insulin reduction clinics-

16. RLDr. Robert Lustig2:02

    We would get rid of 75% of the chronic disease in Amer- in, in the world.

17. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee2:05

    Exactly. It's that root cause again, isn't it?

18. RLDr. Robert Lustig2:09

    Yeah, absolutely. I to- completely agree. Which is what I'm trying to, you know, uh, bring to, you know, medicine. Unfortunately, you know, medicine is provincial. Medicine doesn't, you know, uh, respond very well to, you know, new ideas.

19. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee2:25

    Yeah.

20. RLDr. Robert Lustig2:26

    It's, uh, you know, it's a, uh, it's, i- it's a cartel, if you will.

21. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee2:31

    You, you're very, um, critical of modern medicine in the book. You say modern medicine treats symptoms. Uh, you say modern medicine is not the solution.

22. RLDr. Robert Lustig2:40

    You say that too. That's right.

23. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee2:41

    I do indeed.

24. RLDr. Robert Lustig2:41

    That's right.

25. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee2:41

    And I, I agree with this. It's, it's something I'm... It's one of my big frustrations in my, what now, 20, 21 year career of seeing patients of, it's like, you know, the, uh, I, you know, I sometimes wonder if doctors honestly ask themselves sometimes at the end of their day, and obviously it depends where you work, I'm not talking about intensive care, I'm talking about, you know, chronic patients that... And I did this once, Rob. I, I did this in general practice once. I asked myself at the end of the day, "How many patients do you honestly think you've really helped today?" And, you know, quite a few years ago, it was 20%. And I thought, "I've only helped 20% of people." The other 80%, I've done something, I've, I've sent them off for a test, I've, you know, referred them or I've given them a drug. But I kinda knew they'd be back. I thought, "I'm not really getting to the heart of this problem."

26. RLDr. Robert Lustig3:32

    That's right.

27. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee3:32

    I knew it, and I kinda feel the patient knew it as well, and that's kind of one of the things that led me on this journey to try and understand that there must be a different way. And, you know, that's why I think Metabolical is such a wonderful book. It, it outlines the history, it outlines the science, but it also gives some really practical solutions. And, you know, I love your... You know, we mentioned the liver a lot so far. So one of your big messages in the book is protect the liver and feed the gut.

28. RLDr. Robert Lustig4:03

    Right.

29. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee4:04

    In terms of dietary advice for people, and, you know, a lot's been written about food in the past, but that's, that's very fresh, I think. That's quite a new idea for people, and I wonder if you could explain then, what, what do you mean protect the liver and feed the gut?

30. RLDr. Robert Lustig4:21

    Sure. Well, uh, uh, before we go into protect the liver, feed the gut, 'cause that'll take up the whole rest of our podcast is, you know, explaining all that, I wanna j- just address the whole medical school thing, you know, and, and, and, you know, how you felt as a doctor. Me too. The bottom line is, you know, we, uh, treat medicine and, and unfortunately medical schools treat medicine like a big game of Clue. You know? Um, Colonel Mustard in the ca- conservatory with the candlestick. Match the, um, uh, symptom card with the diagnosis card with the treatment card and discharge your patient. In fact, in 1980, there was a game that we used to play in residency, you know, on like Sunday mornings before things got busy in the ER, called Intern. And that was what you did. You basically took your symptom c- You, you got a symptom card, you got a diagnosis card, and you got a treatment card, and once you got the three of them together, you got rid of the patient. First, uh, you know, player to discharge, you know, to discharge all their patients won the game. You know? And that's how we treated it. So, you know, these diseases, you know, got a, got a, a meningitis? Here's an antibiotic. You know, got a, um, uh, you know, cancer? Here's a chemotherapy. You know. But the fact is, chronic disease doesn't, you know, really fit into that.

Episode duration: 19:03