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Dr Rangan ChatterjeeDr Rangan Chatterjee

"We Learn it Too Late!" - How Society Makes Us Lost, Addicted & Mentally Ill | Jonathan Haidt

Today’s episode is about a topic that I am truly passionate about - the introduction of social media and smartphones into all aspects of our lives - and what impact this is having on us individually, collectively and, perhaps most…

Dr. Rangan ChatterjeehostJonathan Haidtguest
May 29, 20241h 54mWatch on YouTube

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Transcript

  1. 0:00 – 2:08

    Why the "fast-paced digital life" is reshaping attention, relationships, and empathy

    1. RC

      I want to start off by saying that your new book, The Anxious Generation, is to me one of the most important books I've read over the past two or three years. I think it's absolutely brilliant. And I thought the best place to start would be how you end your introduction. "This is a book for anyone who wants to understand how the most rapid rewiring of human relationships and consciousness in human history has made it harder for all of us to think, focus, forget ourselves enough to care about others, and build close relationships." What's going on?

    2. JH

      Ooh, I love that sentence. I'd forgotten about it. Um, [clears throat] so yeah, that's a good place to start. We'll get to the kids in a moment, but almost all of us, no matter who you talk to, you know, our, our technology's a mixed blessing. We all see the value in it for our work, but we're overwhelmed, just the number of emails and texts and distractions, the things we have to do. Um, and as I hope we'll get to, I have a whole chapter on spiritual development, even though I'm an atheist. Um, so if we start by saying, what is this new technology doing to us, this fast-paced digital life, what's it doing to us? And then w- once we appreciate how hard it is for us, now transfer this to nine-year-olds, to children who are, uh, just about to begin puberty. Um, what does it do as the brain is rapidly rewiring? Puberty is this incredibly important period of brain development. What does this crazy, insane, inhuman kind of overwhelming life do to our kids? And so that, uh, that's why I put that sentence there. I wanted to make it clear, this isn't just a book about kids, but, but let's appreciate it as individual adults, and now let's talk about the kids.

    3. RC

      Yeah, you touched on something really important, I think, which is that most adults, we know how addictive this technology is. We all know how difficult it is for us to manage our own relationship.

    4. JH

      Yeah.

    5. RC

      And we have fully developed prefrontal cortices, right?

    6. JH

      Mm-hmm. Exactly. That's right.

    7. RC

      We have fully developed brains.

    8. JH

      Yeah.

    9. RC

      So what is it doing to our kids?

  2. 2:08 – 4:54

    What childhood is for: slow growth, play, and brain wiring—and how phones block it

    1. JH

      Yeah. So, so let's start by talking about childhood. Um, what is childhood? Because human childhood is unique among all other animals. Um, you know, childhood in other animals is this temporary period between, you know, when you're a neonate and a tiny little thing, and then you have to quickly get to the adult form to be reproductive. And all the other primates do that. They're born, they grow steadily, and then they, uh, reach puberty, and then they reproduce. But humans have this weird S-shaped curve where we grow quickly the first couple of years, and then we grow very slowly, uh, from, you know, age, you know, four, five, six, all the way, that, in that period, what Freud called the latency period, um, up to, you know, 11, 12, 13, whenever the growth spurt starts. And in that period, the brain isn't really growing either, but it's, it's rewi- it's wiring itself up, and it's wiring itself up based on experience. And human children are, mammal children, I should say, if you're a young mammal, you have a l- relatively large brain compared to other taxa of animals, and you are programmed to play. All young mammals play. Anyone who's had a puppy or a kitten knows they don't just want food, they really want to play all day long, and it can be really tiring, but it's good preparation for having a human child [chuckles] because it's going to be very tiring. Um, and there's a biological purpose for that play, which is they try out motor patterns at first. Just, can I run? Can I walk? Can I climb? And then they try out social patterns. Can I tease? Can I take teasing? And this takes many, many years, ten, fifteen years-

    2. RC

      Mm-hmm

    3. JH

      ... to do this, to wire up the brain. So what happens, what happens if we give our kids, and in the UK, I heard this horrible statistic. In the UK, uh, Ofcom reported that twenty-four percent of your five to seven-year-olds have their own smartphone. Parents give them a hand-me-down whatever. "Here, kid, watch this. You know, I'm, I'm, I'm busy. I'm cooking. I'm doing email. Here, here's a phone." A quarter of five to seven-year-olds have a smartphone. A smartphone is an experience blocker. Once a kid has it, it's so enticing, they're just not gonna have many of those experiences that they need to wire up their brains properly.

    4. RC

      Yeah. You make this case right at the start of your book that we have overprotected children offline in the real world and underprotected them online.

    5. JH

      Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

    6. RC

      It is remarkable how many children, young children now have a smartphone.

    7. JH

      Mm-hmm.

    8. RC

      I didn't know, actually, it was that much in the UK.

    9. JH

      Mm-hmm.

    10. RC

      That's quite... Well, [chuckles] for anyone who's read your book or reads your book, I think that statistic becomes even more alarming.

    11. JH

      Mm-hmm.

    12. RC

      But I think we have to acknowledge that a lot of parents are trying to do their best.

    13. JH

      Mm-hmm.

    14. RC

      They probably don't know the impact-

    15. JH

      That's right

    16. RC

      ... that that is having on their kids.

  3. 4:54 – 7:58

    From techno-optimism to the "Great Rewiring" (2010–2015)

    1. JH

      Yeah. That's right. So I think the way to understand, because in my book, I don't blame parents at all.

    2. RC

      Yeah.

    3. JH

      If, if parents all over the world are failing in the same way, then it can't be the parents' fault. There's something about the system, the product, um, so I don't blame parents. And if we go back and look at how we got into this, the early internet through 2015, we can see how we fell into it with the best of intentions.

    4. RC

      Mm-hmm.

    5. JH

      So, uh, your older listeners will remember the first day they saw a web browser. I'll never forget it. When someone showed me, you know, AltaVista, I think it was.

    6. RC

      Mm-hmm.

    7. JH

      And I was like, "Wait, you mean that I can type in something and I'll get the answer from somewhere in the world within two seconds?" Like, you know, it was like, it was like God came to Earth and said, "Do you want omniscience? Do you want to know everything instantly?" You know, it was mind-blowing. And as we explored it, it was just treasure after treasure. So in the '90s, most of us were real techno-optimists. And the millennial generation, so those born between 1981 and 1995, um, they were, they grew up with... Well, the older, the, the younger ones grew up with the internet, and it didn't harm them. The millennials' mental health turned out fine. So we were pretty optimistic about all this stuff. We thought it was good. You know, when I-- my, my son is, I, I think I say in the book or somewhere, when I gave my son-- when, when, when I got my first iPhone in 2008, and my son was two, and, you know, he'd play with it sometimes. And when, as he would play and swipe and do things at the age of two, I was like, "Wow, this is gonna be great for him." All that stimulation of his brain, this is like better than playing with blocks or something. So I think we were all pretty optimistic about this, um, and we didn't notice that it really, really changed between 2010 and 2015. This is the period that I call the Great Rewiring, when everything changes.

    8. RC

      Yeah. You mentioned childhoods and the unique nature of human childhoods, and you write in your book that actually it is maladaptive for us to reach puberty fast.

    9. JH

      Mm-hmm.

    10. RC

      I'd never heard that before. I found that absolutely fascinating. So we are designed to have a slow growth childhood-

    11. JH

      Exactly

    12. RC

      ... in comparison to other mammals.

    13. JH

      That's right. That's right. And there is some interesting research, um, that if you're-- that how, how fast or slow our childhood is, is in part responsive to en- to environmental factors. So there's some interesting research, Jay Belsky, I think, was one of the in- initial authors, that when, when your childhood has all kinds of stress and trauma, you don't have safe attachment figures, girls menstruate early. That is, they-- it's as though evolution has given us some variability, and if the world is dangerous, you can't count on surviving all that long. Get to the reproductions part fast. Just reproduce and have a lot of babies. But if the world is safe, well, maybe slow it down a bit, spend more time learning. Um, so, um, so we are very responsive, but even we're biologically responsive to the degree of stress and uncertainty in our worlds.

  4. 7:58 – 15:35

    A framework for real-world development: embodied, synchronous, small-group, and community-rooted life

    1. RC

      Yeah. When you mention the real world-

    2. JH

      Mm-hmm

    3. RC

      ... there's four components to that, that you write about, embodied, synchronous, one-to-one or one-to-several, and joining communities that have a high bar for entry and exit. I think it's really... I think it would be useful to go through those-

    4. JH

      Mm-hmm

    5. RC

      ... because I think if we understand what an ideal and optimal, dare I say it, childhood and adolescent period is, I think it helps us understand how potentially problematic-

    6. JH

      Right

    7. RC

      ... this phone-based childhood becomes.

    8. JH

      Mm-hmm. Yeah. Okay, let me try out a crazy new metaphor. I just, I, I always think in metaphors, so let's see if this one works. Um, so we kind of understand the way kids learn to walk. We've all seen it. They-- All human children do the same thing. You know, first they rise up on their knees and hands, then they start crawling, then they walk holding on. You know, there's a very, there's a clear sequence of events by which our brains wire up the walking ability. Um, suppose we had this new technology which keeps kids flat on their back for the first two years, but they have screens showing them how to walk, and that's how they're supposed to learn to walk. Like, that would not work, okay?

    9. RC

      Mm-hmm.

    10. JH

      So now let's talk about what actually happens with childhood. Um, so the, so when all this stuff was coming in, you know, we thought, well, sure they're having social interactions on social media. It's very social. Uh, and you know, the boys are talking to each other on video games or they're... It's exciting. So we, you know, we thought, well, maybe these virtual interactions will be just as good. I even thought, I remember when I first saw Twitter and kids were, like, tweeting about a hamburger that they had or something, I was thinking, "Well, it's kind of weird. It's trivial, but maybe it's super social." Maybe, you know, maybe they're... Like, if you have, uh, if you have five hundred contacts with other kids during the day rather than just fifty or whatever I had when I was in grade school, maybe that'll be good.

    11. RC

      Mm-hmm.

    12. JH

      But it's not. And so here's when the four features explain why. So a, a, a real, a, a real-world interaction is one that involves our bodies. Like even right now, I'm, I'm moving my hands. You and I, there, there are all kinds of rules. Like, uh, you're listening to me, so you look at me.

    13. RC

      Yeah.

    14. JH

      I just make temporary eye contact with you. It'd be weird if I just stare at you. So this is a subtle thing about human social interaction that I can put into words, but I didn't know this until I, like, read it in a book that this is what we do. Um, so you and I are both practiced at this because we've had millions and millions of face-to-face interactions.

    15. RC

      Yeah.

    16. JH

      Um, but, um, but i- in a virtual interaction, there's no body. You're just interacting, I mean, you know, you're just interacting mostly through typing, through words, um, and the person on the other end doesn't even have to be a person. It can be an AI. So, so the body is really important. Um, we, we use our heads, our head position, we use all kinds of things. So nonverbal communication is crucial, and that's just the first feature. Um, the next feature is, uh, synchronous versus asynchronous.

    17. RC

      Yeah.

    18. JH

      So the f-- Right. See, you just said yeah. Like we both know exactly when to put in that little sound.

    19. RC

      Yeah.

    20. JH

      Too early or you'd be interrupting me, too late, and we'd trip over each other.

    21. RC

      Yeah.

    22. JH

      So it's, it's this really, it's this really tight dance that we all know how to do with each other. But on social media, on virtual interactions, I post something, and then I check, and, and, and you didn't comment on it. And, and why not? It-- But you commented on someone else. Like, what's going on?

    23. RC

      Mm.

    24. JH

      So asynchronous interaction is much more prone to misunderstanding, stress, a lack of feedback. And so if kids are doing that rather than joking around with each other and wrestling and putting their arms around each other and playing, they're missing out on what they need. It's as though they were being kept flat on their back instead of learning to walk.

    25. RC

      And it has to be in real time, right?

    26. JH

      Real time, exactly. Yeah. So, you know, a, a Zoom call, a Skype call, that's, you know, that's okay. That is partially embodied. We can't touch each other.

    27. RC

      Mm-hmm.

    28. JH

      We can't do a lot of things, but we do see each other's faces. So, you know, it's not... Look, obviously, this stuff is incredibly useful as tools. And if you're, you know, if you have a two-year-old and you're away on business and you do a Zoom call with your two-year-old, that's great. You know, I'm not saying no technology.

    29. RC

      Yeah.

    30. JH

      I'm saying as t- as much as you can, make it embodied and synchronous.

  5. 15:35 – 20:04

    Clinical reality and workplace consequences: what happens when kids "grow up on camera"

    1. RC

      Yeah, I found that section really helpful. I mean, kids and social media, kids and screens is something that I've brought up on many occasions on this podcast over the previous years. It's something I'm very passionate about.

    2. JH

      Mm-hmm.

    3. RC

      And I have seen this in practice. I have seen at least three kids where I can directly see a link between their social media use-

    4. JH

      Mm-hmm

    5. RC

      ... and their mental health, and I've also seen how quickly it can change if you help them reset their relationship.

    6. JH

      Yeah, yeah.

    7. RC

      You know, I, I-

    8. JH

      Right. Kids are still very plastic, very flexible.

    9. RC

      Yeah, very much so, and I s- I think the first time I saw this was maybe 2012, 2013.

    10. JH

      Mm-hmm.

    11. RC

      A 15 or 16-year-old had presented to the ER at the weekend.

    12. JH

      Mm-hmm.

    13. RC

      I didn't know. I saw them on a Monday afternoon-

    14. JH

      Mm

    15. RC

      ... in my primary care practice at that time. And I was really confused 'cause I thought, "Wow, I know this family really well." I never detected anything.

    16. JH

      Mm-hmm.

    17. RC

      I was really surprised-

    18. JH

      Mm

    19. RC

      ... that this adolescent had ended up, you know, in the ER.

    20. JH

      Presented with what symptom?

    21. RC

      Having tried to harm-

    22. JH

      Oh, yeah

    23. RC

      ... himself. It was-

    24. JH

      Mm.

    25. RC

      It w- I never forgot that case because, I mean, I won't go through the whole case again 'cause I, I have discussed it before on this show, but in essence, as I built up a relationship with this chap-

    26. JH

      Mm-hmm

    27. RC

      ... I actually said to him, maybe first or second consultation, "Hey, would you consider being on your phone less?"

    28. JH

      Mm-hmm.

    29. RC

      "Would you consider-

    30. JH

      Mm-hmm

  6. 20:04 – 27:19

    Causation vs correlation: how Haidt evaluates the research evidence

    1. RC

      One of the things I have enjoyed the most about The Anxious Generation is all the research you put together because a lot of people are saying, "Well, there's no evidence that this is bad." Okay?

    2. JH

      Mm-hmm. Yep.

    3. RC

      You know, "This is what happens every generation."

    4. JH

      Mm-hmm.

    5. RC

      New technology comes, and the adults think it's bad for their children.

    6. JH

      Mm-hmm.

    7. RC

      But you have quite meticulously gone through the research and put forward a case showing that actually-

    8. JH

      Mm-hmm

    9. RC

      ... the widespread use of smartphones and social media together are causative-

    10. JH

      Yes. That's right

    11. RC

      ... of mental health problems.

    12. JH

      Yes.

    13. RC

      Could you explain that, please?

    14. JH

      Yes, that's right. Now, thank you for giving me this opportunity 'cause there's this weird thing going on. There was a review written of the book, um, in Nature, in which a psychologist, Candice Odgers, claimed that I was confusing correlation and causation. She suggested I don't know the difference between them. Um, and she said there is no evidence, that I have no evidence of causation. This is very frustrating to me because beginning in 2019, when I started studying this, there were so many studies out there, I couldn't make sense of them. I couldn't remember. So I said, "Okay, let me put them all in a Google Doc, all the studies on both sides, on every side. Let me just collect them all." And it quickly emerged that there are three major categories. There's a huge number of correlational studies, so yeah, the evidence is mostly correlational in that there are hundreds and hundreds of correlational studies.

    15. RC

      Showing what?

    16. JH

      Oh, showing that heavy users have worse mental health, especially for girls. That's a very, very-

    17. RC

      Heavy users of, of social media

    18. JH

      ... of social media. Yes. We're talking about social media here. Um, so you know, my book is about the phone-based childhood. It's not just about social media. There's a lot more. But social media is where we have the best data indicating harm, causal harm to girls especially. So I began tabulating all the studies, hundreds of correlational studies. They're con- we're converging on the size of the correlations. That, that's going fine. But then is it a cause? Well, then there are dozens of longitudinal studies where you track the same kids over time, like, let's say, once a year. You know, there are a lot of studies that measure kids once a year on, on various psychological traits, and you find that, well, you know, if you increase your social media use at time one, does that lead to worse mental health at time two? Or if your mental health gets worse at time one, does that cau- does that seem to cause you to do more social media at time two? So these longitudinal studies don't prove causation, but they, they give us more of a clue than correlational studies. And what we find in those, and we have d- a few dozen of those, on both sides, I have it organized. Here are the ones that support the hypothesis. Here are the ones that oppose it. I am not cherry-picking. I'm putting all the studies there. What you find is that there are a number of studies that don't find an effect, but they tend to be the ones that measure it every day. So if you take a kid off of social media for a day or two or three, does that make them happier? If you're an addict and you're denied your drug for a couple days, you're not, you're less happy.

    19. RC

      Mm-hmm.

    20. JH

      So once we remove the ones that used a very short time period, when, when... And this is what we find over and over again. When you zoom in on the studies and you concentrate on the, on, on, on tho- those that really test the hypothesis, the effects get bigger. So this is another signal. Uh, and what I mean is when we look at those that, uh, used at least a month in between measurements, then the large majority do find a cause, what seems to be a causal effect of increased social media at time one is associated with increased mental illness or mental problems at time two. So that's the second category of experiments. But the third is the most important. It's true experiments where you randomly assign half the people to go off social media for a month or, or not, or reduce it for a month or not. And so we have about 25 experiments in this Google Doc. Um, listeners can find all of this at jonathanhaidt.com/reviews. I've got dozens of Google Docs tabulating the study, all the studies we can find on video games, social media, uh, dating apps. I mean, I'm really trying to collect all the evidence here.

    21. RC

      Mm-hmm.

    22. JH

      I'm not cherry-picking. I'm trying to be comprehensive and transparent. And the true experiments, w- uh, again, we have about 25, I think, and 16 of them, if I remember, 16 of them find a significant effect. Now, some are, they're of varying quality, and we can argue about that. But for Odgers to say that I have no evidence when I have been working very, very carefully since 2019 to lay out what are the different kinds of evidence, what do they show, and there's a whole section in the book explaining the difference between correlation and causation.

    23. RC

      Mm-hmm.

    24. JH

      So again, it's just very frustrating to me that journalists will just cite that review in Nature as though, "Oh, you know, he doesn't have any evidence." Like, ugh, so it's just frustrating. I mean, I've been working so carefully-

    25. RC

      Mm-hmm

    26. JH

      ... on that difference between correlation and causation since 2019.

    27. RC

      I would also add to that, that I've spoken to a number of clinicians, and we will tell you that we have seen this over and over again.

    28. JH

      Mm-hmm. Yeah.

    29. RC

      Okay? It's not the same thing as a study, right?

    30. JH

      Mm-hmm.

  7. 27:19 – 31:43

    What changed after 2007: iPhone as tool vs phone as master (push notifications, front camera, Instagram)

    1. RC

      I mean, you, I think you, you have a thought experiment in the book at one point about someone who sort of... Was it they disappear in 2007, then they reappear and look at the world?

    2. JH

      Oh, yeah. Yeah.

    3. RC

      But it, it's funny, that was a thought experiment. I spoke to a monk on this show-

    4. JH

      Oh my

    5. RC

      ... six months ago.

    6. JH

      Okay.

    7. RC

      Uh, a chap called Gelong Thubten. And this is literally what happened to him. He was, I think, in his 20s. He was an actor in New York. He suffered from severe burnout.

    8. JH

      Mm-hmm.

    9. RC

      And he went to join a monastery.

    10. JH

      Around what year was that?

    11. RC

      I think it was around 2007, 2008.

    12. JH

      Wow. That's it. That's when the iPhone comes out, 2007.

    13. RC

      And I'm, I'm pretty sure, I can't remember the exact dates, but I said-

    14. JH

      Mm-hmm

    15. RC

      ... he went on this prolonged retreat, and he said, "I went in, and when I came out," because I think it was for about a year or maybe longer, he didn't have access to the world.

    16. JH

      Yeah, yeah.

    17. RC

      He said he couldn't believe what he was seeing. The world looked different.

    18. JH

      Yeah.

    19. RC

      Everyone's walking around staring at things.

    20. JH

      That's right. That's right.

    21. RC

      So it, it actually did happen to some people.

    22. JH

      Wow. Yeah. There's a, there's a, an American horror movie from the 1950s called Invasion of the Body Snatchers. Is that one that... Does that phrase ring a bell? Is that-

    23. RC

      Yeah.

    24. JH

      So, um, you know, it's about this alien species that drops spores down on Earth, and the spores grow, and then they send tendrils out, uh, to, to the person's brain while they're sleeping, and then they, they create a copy, and then they kill the person, and the copy takes over their life. So it's a common horror movie refrain in, in, that Americans are very familiar with. Um, it's a little bit like that. It sometimes feels a little bit like that, that, uh, you know, all the way up to 2007, 2008, and the first couple years of the iPhone were n- not harmful.

    25. RC

      And why is that?

    26. JH

      So, so the iPhone was originally an amazing digital Swiss Army knife. That is, and Steve Jobs introduced it this way. At the, at one of the most famous product launches in history, Steve Jobs says, "Today, we're releasing three new products. We have a revolutionary new music player, we have an internet browser, and we have a telephone. We have three new products," and he holds it up. It's the iPhone. Three things in one. Oh, and maps and a flashlight. I mean, it was an incredible tool.

    27. RC

      Mm-hmm.

    28. JH

      Um, a, a tool is something that you pull out when you need it, and that's what the iPhone was in 2007 and 2008. We begin to get the App Store. 2009 or '10, I think it is, you get push notifications. So by 2011, 2012, it's not just a tool in your pocket that you pull out when you need a flashlight or a map or to-

    29. RC

      Mm

    30. JH

      ... to send email. It now is pinging you, beeping you, saying, "Come see what someone said about you." Um, social media apps are on it. Instagram is the first social media app that was created only to use on the smartphone. You couldn't use it on a browser at first. So this is why I call this period the Great Rewiring. In 2010, teenagers had flip phones. They did- weren't ping... They weren't, there were no no- notifications. Um, they didn't have a front-facing camera. They had a phone, a small phone in their pocket, which was a tool that they would use if they wanted to text someone or call someone. That was it. By 2015, everyone now has a smartphone with a front-facing camera, high-speed internet, um, social media loaded on it, and it's pinging them constantly. So if you went to sleep in 2009 or '10, uh, when j- iPhone was just coming out, and you wake up in 2015, you're gonna see exactly what that monk said, and you'll see it especially among young people. Because even at schools Recess is much quieter now because a lot of kids are sitting there at recess on their phones. Hallways are quiet between classes, fairly quiet because, uh, you know, most schools say you can't use your phone in class, you have to wait until class is over to use it in the hallway. So life really was transformed, and it kind of is like Invasion of the Body Snatchers.

  8. 31:43 – 34:40

    Solutions as a collective action problem: how families and schools can move together

    1. RC

      guide right now, all you have to do is click the link in the description box below. One of the reasons why my son is currently at the high school he is at and not another one is because of their phone policy, actually.

    2. JH

      Oh, good. Good for you for choosing that.

    3. RC

      So this was a few years ago-

    4. JH

      Mm-hmm

    5. RC

      ... when he was leaving primary school, going to secondary school, and there were a few options. We're lucky that he had a few options-

    6. JH

      Mm-hmm

    7. RC

      ... of schools to go to. I know not everyone-

    8. JH

      Right

    9. RC

      ... is in that position. But a lot of people, Jonathan, I think, feel that they have no agency here with it.

    10. JH

      Yeah, that's right.

    11. RC

      If the school is allowing phones-

    12. JH

      Mm-hmm

    13. RC

      ... well, what the hell can parents do?

    14. JH

      Yeah, that's right.

    15. RC

      You know?

    16. JH

      That's right. So that, so that's why in the solutions, um, uh, uh, I really focus on solving what we call collective action problems. This is the key to the whole thing. A collective action problem is one in which if one person does something, it might be very difficult, but if several of us do it at the same time, it becomes much easier. And so if, if, if you're the only parent who says to your son, "No, you're not getting a smartphone," and he says, "But everyone else has one. I'm left out. They're all, you know, they're all on various platforms. They're doing things, and I, I don't even know what's going on," it's very painful for the kid, and it's painful for you. So if you are the first one to do what you thought was the right thing, you are imposing a cost on your child. But what if, what if you can team up with a few of your child's friends' parents so that, you know, when your kids reach eight or nine or 10 or whenever it is that you're, you're thinking giving them a smartphone, you all say, "You know what? The five of us, the five families, uh, we're, we're all gonna do the same thing. We're all gonna k- give you, we're gonna keep you on flip phones or brick phones, whatever you call them here, um, until, you know, in the US, I would say 14, high school, here 16, uh, end of secondary school. We're gonna keep you on those, but guess what? We're gonna give you a fun childhood. We're gonna really, you know, us fi- you know, the, you know, the families of your best friends, we're all gonna give you an enormous amount of freedom. You can hang out at any of our houses. You can go between them without supervision." And if we're talking like eight, nine, 10-year-olds, this is incredibly healthy. Um, "We're gonna, you know, we'll pay for you to take trips to an amusement park or to, you know, something that you can do fun without supervision." That's the way we can give our kids back a healthy childhood. So the key is, um, it's hard if you d- if you're the only one, but if you can just team up with a few parents, then you can do it. And if the school is on board, then you have, you so- you break the collective action problem instantly.

    17. RC

      Yeah.

    18. JH

      Because now you have the whole community is saying, "Let's delay smartphones. Let's give our kids more independence and free play without smartphones."

    19. RC

      Yeah. I think schools play a huge role here-

    20. JH

      Yeah

    21. RC

      ... because schools are seen often as the model educationally-

    22. JH

      Mm-hmm

    23. RC

      ... behaviorally. You know, what the school promotes-

    24. JH

      Yeah

    25. RC

      ... is often what the kids and the families think, "Okay, this is fine 'cause the school's-"

    26. JH

      Right, right

  9. 34:40 – 39:04

    Gendered impacts: girls’ social media vulnerability vs boys’ video games and porn

    1. RC

      ... "saying it's okay." I think they, they hold huge amounts of influence. I, I wanna get to school shortly. Before we do that though, you, you've mentioned that it's different for girls-

    2. JH

      Yeah

    3. RC

      ... than it is for boys. This is incredibly fascinating, Jonathan.

    4. JH

      Mm-hmm.

    5. RC

      Can you walk us through that, please?

    6. JH

      Yeah.

    7. RC

      Why is social media particularly harmful for girls?

    8. JH

      Yeah. Well, given that we have a nice long time together and given that, um, you know, we can cover sort of, you know, medical, more biological topics-

    9. RC

      Yeah

    10. JH

      ... um, you know, I'll, I'll put out there that the, the big difference between boys and girls, men and women, is not in their abilities. It's in their, it's in what they enjoy. Um, when you look at what y- what boys and girls choose to do when they are left alone playing however they want, uh, the boys tend to go for-- they, they'll form into groups, and then they will compete. They, they, they just enjoy that. Um, the boys will work more with things. They'll build things. So boys are more oriented towards things. Girls are more oriented towards people. Just on average, these are just differences on average. So when you let kids play, the girls will tend to spend more time in smo- pairs or small groups talking, and especially talking about soc- about other people. Girls are really interested. They have a much more sophisticated mental map of social space. Boys are more clueless about social, social things. Boys are more mechanical. They're more interested in physical objects. Um, and so, so this is no judgment on either sex.

    11. RC

      Mm-hmm.

    12. JH

      This is just what we find, um, there, uh, uh, in human children. So what happens when everybody gets devices all day long? The boys get their phones and their video controllers, and they say, "Wow," rather than, like, going out and it's raining and we're gonna, you know, we wanna play basketball or football. Rather than that, how about we all just, let's, let's play video games? It's more exciting anyway. Now, when I was young in the '70s, video games were just coming out, and to play a video game, you'd have to go over to someone's house, and you would each have a controller, and then you could play a game. So y- video games used to be social in that way 'cause you'd play a little bit. You'd, you'd, you'd eat. You'd do something else, but you're together. Um, what's happened once we got high-speed internet, the games became more and more amazing, multiplayer distributed games. So now, if a boy wants to play with his friends, he has to go home alone. He can't go over to a friend's house because he needs his own headset, his own controller, his own screen, and then he can play with his buddies and a bunch of strangers, Fortnite or whatever war game they wanna play.

    13. RC

      But he's not really with them, is he?

    14. JH

      Exactly. That's right. Now, it is, it is synchronous. So, so video games are better than social media because video games, at least they're synchronous. The boys, you know, my son, like during COVID, we finally relented and got him, uh, uh, uh, an Xbox, and he, and he'd play Fortnite with his buddies, and they'd be laughing their heads off. So there are some good things about these j- about these video games. But when those video games displace time together... Now, during COVID, we did this ridiculous overreaction. We didn't let kids play. We thought that it was contagious by touch. It wasn't. Um, so during COVID, you know, I think the video games were probably a net positive. But then COVID ends, and the boys are all on video games. They're not spending much time with each other, so they're really losing out. So that's the boy story. Video games and porn are, are at the heart of what's blocking the boys' development. But social media takes that natural girl interest in the social map, um, and, and exploits it and says, "Do you wanna know what someone just said about someone else? Here it is. What do you think about that? Do you wanna know what someone else just said about you? Here it is." So, um, social media is really targeted at girls' insecurities, and we know this from some of the documents that Frances Haugen brought out of Facebook, the Facebook whistleblower. Um, there's a, there's one, I mention it in the book, um, where they have a little seminar within Facebook, now Meta. They have a little seminar on brain development, and they show slides about how the prefrontal cortex is the last part to myelinate, the last part to, to lock down, how the emotion centers are very powerful in a twelve, 13, 14-year-old kid, but the ability to regulate, uh, uh, impulse control and say no is much weaker. I mean, they, they knew exactly what they were targeting in their battle to keep girls especially, to keep them on their platform and not let them go to other platforms.

    15. RC

      Yeah. It's, it's so powerful to hear the difference between boys and girls, 'cause as you say, boys are getting harmed by this new tech world-

    16. JH

      Mm-hmm

    17. RC

      ... but just in a different way-

    18. JH

      Yes, that's right

  10. 39:04 – 46:07

    The 2010–2012 inflection: why the mental health graphs shift—and why alternatives don’t fit

    1. RC

      ... to girls. Now, there's some pretty compelling graphs in the book. Can you explain what exactly happened in 2010? You've already touched on it-

    2. JH

      Mm-hmm. Yeah

    3. RC

      ... but if we're really trying to understand the causative link-

    4. JH

      Mm-hmm

    5. RC

      ... between social media use-

    6. JH

      Mm-hmm

    7. RC

      ... and mental health problems, particularly in girls-

    8. JH

      Mm-hmm

    9. RC

      ... maybe explain some of that data for me, please.

    10. JH

      Sure. Sure. Yes, and actually this will be critical, 'cause we should talk about alternative explanations. That's another, another criticism I get is, "How do you know it's the phones?" You know, it couldn't be, you know, school shootings. Uh, in the United States, we had a terrible school shooting in 2012. A guy killed 22 six-year-olds. It was the most horrible one we've ever had. And since then, um, American children have to do these, these lockdown drills, sh- you know, shooter prep- preparedness drills.

    11. RC

      In, in every school?

    12. JH

      In, in every school, yeah.

    13. RC

      Wow.

    14. JH

      Um, and so-

    15. RC

      That's so alien to us here-

    16. JH

      Yeah

    17. RC

      ... 'cause we don't have this.

    18. JH

      That's, that's right. No, that's right. You don't have our madness about guns. Um, but so, so some people say, "Well, of course 2012 is the year everything changed. That's, that was the year of the Newtown Massacre, and then, and ever since then, of course the kids are anxious." But it's important to understand, if the same thing happened at the same time in the same way in Canada, the UK, Australia, New Zealand, then it wasn't the school shootings.

    19. RC

      Mm-hmm.

    20. JH

      So let's g- let's go over the timing. Um, so what you'll find in the book, and then I have a lot more, again, if you go to jonathanhaidt.com/reviews. Oh, also, actually anxiousgeneration.com is the website for the book, and so we now have a fantastic r- research page there. Just go to anxiousgeneration.com. You'll see that, you click on the Research tab, you'll see all these graphs. Um, and the basic pattern is this. The, when you trace out levels of depression and anxiety, and you always need to do it separated by sex. Never trust graphs that merge all kids together. Always look at just girls separately and look at boys separately, 'cause they're very different. Um, and what you find is that for the girls, everything was very stable from the late '90s, uh, or wherever the data goes back to, generally in the '90s, and all the way through the early 2000s up to 2010, there's no real pattern. Um, th- th- we're talking now about the millennials. When the millennials were teenagers, their mental health was very stable.

    21. RC

      And, and just remind us, what age does that mean you, or when were you born if you're a millennial?

    22. JH

      That's 1981 to 1995-

    23. RC

      Okay. That's the millennials

    24. JH

      ... is the millennials. That's right. Um, and so their mental health is very stable. But then when Gen Z enters these datasets, Gen Z is about 1996 and later. When Gen Z enters, the numbers go up very, very suddenly, um, around 2012. And it's not just because Gen Z has arrived. It's because this is the Great Rewiring period, 2010 to 2015, and if you're a millennial, you were mostly done with puberty by the time this happened. So if you didn't get your first Instagram account until you were 17 or 18 or maybe you were in university, you're probably fine. It was distracting, it wasted time, but it didn't rewire your brain because you were mostly done with puberty. Early puberty is the most sensitive, easily disrupted, open period, roughly 11 to 13 for girls, maybe 12 or 13 to 14, 15 for boys. That is the most important period for us to be careful about, about what are, what's going into their eyes and ears. And so this is, I believe, what caused Gen Z to exist rather than just being more millennials, is, um, it's those kids around 2012 who got their first smartphone, Instagram account, front-facing camera, high-speed data. All of it comes in, just in a few years. Um, so a kid who's 11 or 12, when they get all this stuff, now their most sensitive period of brain rewiring is governed by mil- like millions of little things flashing past with a status report. This got this many likes. This person has this many followers. Everything's quantified. Everything, you're on camera. So Um, if you were in early puberty during the Great Rewiring period, you became Gen Z, and you have more than a double the risk of anxiety, depression, self-harm, and suicide, um, if you're a girl. Um, for boys, the interesting thing is, uh, the percentage increases are often similar, but boys start from lower levels of depression, anxiety. At puberty, g- girls have always had, uh, their, their levels of depression, anxiety, what we call internalizing disorders, um, go up. Um, so boys and girls are both going up, but the difference is that for the girls, it's a hockey stick. It's almost always a hockey stick graph. That is, it's flat. You get to 2012, and then boom, it goes up, up, up.

    25. RC

      Mm-hmm.

    26. JH

      The boys, it's not usually a hockey stick. The boys, it's more of a slow curve, and for the boys, it begins a couple years earlier. And I think, I can't prove this part, but I think it's because the boys were getting onto the multiplayer video games around 2007, '8, '9. Um, the boys are getting onto multiplayer video games, which are great fun, but they're so much fun that they don't see each other in person much anymore. So the problem for boys starts a little earlier. It, it doesn't have an elbow in it that's as sharp, and that's, that was one of the clues that the boys' story is just different from the girls' story.

    27. RC

      Yeah. It's really powerful. In that section of the book, you talk about the gender differences that do show up, agency versus communion.

    28. JH

      Yes.

    29. RC

      I found that interesting. You've already spoken a little bit to that-

    30. JH

      Mm-hmm

  11. 46:07 – 54:29

    Parenting in practice: controlled smartphones, notification discipline, and a growing UK parent movement

    1. JH

      Oh, thanks. Hey, how old are your kids?

    2. RC

      Thirteen and 11 at the moment.

    3. JH

      Okay. So-

    4. RC

      And boy, the 13-year-old is the boy?

    5. JH

      Thirteen-year-old boy.

    6. RC

      Boy. Mm-hmm.

    7. JH

      And 11-year-old girl.

    8. RC

      Girl. Okay, early puberty. They're both, they are both, like, right now, this y- well, there's some variation, but they are both, given the two-year gap, they're both starting early puberty right now.

    9. JH

      Yeah.

    10. RC

      Well, let me share with you what I've done.

    11. JH

      Okay. Please.

    12. RC

      And you could perhaps advise-

    13. JH

      Mm-hmm

    14. RC

      ... or at least give your perspective.

    15. JH

      Mm-hmm.

    16. RC

      So I feel it's quite different to the norm.

    17. JH

      Mm-hmm.

    18. RC

      And I'm not saying that with any judgment at all.

    19. JH

      Mm-hmm.

    20. RC

      I'm just on top of this stuff, and [chuckles] I guess I've got the education and the ability-

    21. JH

      Mm-hmm

    22. RC

      ... up until now, I would say at least, to influence my children in a way that I think is helpful for them, right?

    23. JH

      Mm-hmm.

    24. RC

      So what does that mean? So none of my kids, and my daughter is still at primary school-

    25. JH

      Mm-hmm

    26. RC

      ... she's in the last term now-

    27. JH

      Mm-hmm

    28. RC

      ... had a phone of any sort at primary school.

    29. JH

      Good. What about iPads? What about iPads?

    30. RC

      No, we don't have iPads either.

  12. 54:29 – 59:40

    Why smartphones are harmful beyond social media: convenience as a developmental "crutch"

    1. RC

      So let's just parse out these, these separate topics to make sure we're not conflating them.

    2. JH

      Mm-hmm.

    3. RC

      Okay? So I think a lot of us can understand why social media in particular can be toxic.

    4. JH

      Mm-hmm.

    5. RC

      But smartphones do lots of things-

    6. JH

      Yeah

    7. RC

      ... that are not social media.

    8. JH

      Mm-hmm. That's right.

    9. RC

      So why, in your view- Do you think we should try our best to avoid giving our children smartphones-

    10. JH

      Mm-hmm

    11. RC

      ... until the age of 16?

    12. JH

      When I started writing the book, I thought the main story was gonna be about social media and girls, 'cause that's where the evidence is clearest. But, but pretty soon in, I realized, no, it's the phone-based childhood. It's when the phone moves to the center of your child's life, it blocks out everything else. Um, uh, it, in fact, I call phones experience blockers 'cause they will, they will block out m- they'll reduce the degree to which your child has every other kind of experience. They won't read as many books. They're not likely to have hobbies. Um, they're not gonna sleep as much, and that's even true if they're not on social media because the phone has so many fun things to do, so many interesting things to do. Um, [clears throat] so keeping them off s- social media is the worst single application, especially for girls. But look at the way kids behave now. At the beginning of class, let's say, you see the, uh, you see this in universities. You see it in high schools. At the beginning of class, it's silent. You know, students, most students are there a little bit early. It's silent because it's a little awkward to start a conversation with someone who isn't your best friend. Um, and everyone else is on their phone, and so you pull out your phone.

    13. RC

      Mm-hmm.

    14. JH

      Even if you don't have social media, you got something to do there. Or maybe you, you, you get into an elevator, and, you know, it's a little awkward in an elevator with some people that you sort of know. Do you make small talk? No, you just pull out your phone. That's what everyone else is doing. There's no need for small talk. And so these tools, th- the technology is amazing at making our lives easier, and that's why we adults are, are hooked on it, and it's not necessarily bad. I love my iPhone. It does all kinds of amazing things for me. It's very, very helpful. But I guess the key idea I wanna get for parents here is the last thing you wanna do for your child is make everything easy.

    15. RC

      Yeah.

    16. JH

      The last thing you wanna do is say, "All the things that are difficult in life, here. Here's a phone. It'll take care of things for you."

    17. RC

      Yeah.

    18. JH

      That's a way to guarantee that they will not grow. And so even if your, your daughter, let's say, gets a smartphone or your son has a smartphone, and you say, "No Instagram, no Snapchat, no, you know, TikTok," um, there's still a lot of stuff to do there, and they will still use it as a crutch socially. That's why I say the best phone is a flip phone where it's hard to text, where you have to hit the seven key three times to make an S or whatever it is.

    19. RC

      Yeah.

    20. JH

      I forget what it is. Uh, 'cause that way your ki- you can send, if you, you know, you know, uh, "Sweetheart, I'm"-

    21. RC

      If you really need to send it-

    22. JH

      Yeah

    23. RC

      ... you will send it.

    24. JH

      Yeah, uh, yeah. "I'm 30 minutes late. See you soon." You know?

    25. RC

      Yeah.

    26. JH

      You can, you know, so I, I totally understand the need to text because a big part, we haven't really touched on this, a big part of it is the fourth norm, far more independence, free play, and responsibility in the real world. We need to send our kids out earlier with more independence, and if we're gonna do that, I totally understand and agree, you wanna be able to at least reach your kid or have them reach you, so that, that's okay.

    27. RC

      Yeah. I've heard you talk about the book Free-Range Kids before-

    28. JH

      Mm-hmm

    29. RC

      ... and how that book fundamentally changed the way that you parent.

    30. JH

      It did. That's right.

  13. 59:40 – 1:31:00

    Online sexual risks: sexting economies, harassment, and early porn exposure

    1. RC

      Yeah. There was something I read in The Anxious Generation which really shocked me, which was how nudes are being sent around, nude photos-

    2. JH

      Yeah

    3. RC

      ... at schools.

    4. JH

      Yeah.

    5. RC

      It's a sort of currency.

    6. JH

      Mm-hmm.

    7. RC

      I was like, "Is this really happening?"

    8. JH

      Yeah.

    9. RC

      At schools?

    10. JH

      Yeah. So I can't say it's happening at all schools. I'm sure it's not at all schools. It depends on the school culture. Uh, but here I was drawing on a book called American Girls. It was a portrait of American girlhood, which is all online. Um, and it was, I think, from 2018 or so, I think was when it was written. And, um, the big sex difference is that, uh, for a boy, um, if he sends a picture of his penis to a girl and she were to expose him and, and, and show it to others, it's not, it's, it's not, at least in these, some of these school cultures, it's not that shameful. It's almost a macho thing. Whereas for a girl, once she sends a photo to a boy that she's flirting with or a boy who says, "You know, come on. Don't be a prude. Come on. I'm sharing with you. You share with me," um, once a boy gets a photo, now he has something of great value. And I was shocked to learn, at least in the, in s- some of the schools that were profiled in the book, um, boys in middle school, for us that's, uh, age about 11 to 13, you know, 12, 13-year-old boys, if they get a photo of a, of a, you know, of, of the, you know, of the boobs or the pubic area of a girl- Um, they can trade that photo to, uh, with high school kids who will buy them beer, who will get them alcohol through their own connections. And so it becomes like an economy, um, of this very valuable thing, which is f- naked photos of girls that you know. Um, and so to expose girls to this, and the boy- I mean, the effect it has on the boys is-

    11. RC

      Mm-hmm

    12. JH

      ... also so, so dehumanizing.

    13. RC

      Yeah.

    14. JH

      And then you add in the porn, you know, the hardcore porn with the choking and the anal sex that they're all... You know, they, they see this. By the time they're 11, 12, 13, most of them have seen this. Um, the fact that they are exposed to so much hardcore porn before they've ever kissed anyone, this has to be influencing their sexual development.

    15. RC

      Yeah. It's that word rewiring-

    16. JH

      Yeah

    17. RC

      ... right? It's, I mean, it's pretty shocking to hear some of this. But I think what makes this so different from previous technologies that people would get scared of-

    18. JH

      Mm-hmm, mm-hmm

    19. RC

      ... and, you know, you know s- you know, people would say, "Oh, it's just adults complaining about the world moving on."

    20. JH

      Yeah. Yeah, mm-hmm.

    21. RC

      It feels that this is completely different.

    22. JH

      Mm-hmm.

    23. RC

      Like, it feels that we are literally changing our experience-

    24. JH

      Mm-hmm

    25. RC

      ... of the world.

    26. JH

      Yeah.

    27. RC

      Having immediate access to everything-

    28. JH

      Mm-hmm

    29. RC

      ... all the time, I think actually is a problem. It, it makes us lazy.

    30. JH

      Exactly. That's right.

  14. 1:31:00 – 1:38:14

    Schools and learning: phone-free campuses now, broader screen reduction as a longer project

    1. RC

      Let's get into some more of the practical advice. Let's start off with schools, if you don't mind.

    2. JH

      Yes.

    3. RC

      I know we've touched on a few things, but you're very clear. And I think one of the best things about this book and the, the public conversation you have started, for many years now, but particularly since it came out, is you've got some very clear guidelines for people and schools.

    4. JH

      Yeah.

    5. RC

      Which I think... I think without that, we've really struggled because it's like, yeah, we know this is not good. We should be improving things.

    6. JH

      Mm-hmm.

    7. RC

      But, but we don't know how.

    8. JH

      Exactly.

    9. RC

      But you're making it really clear that-

    10. JH

      Mm-hmm

    11. RC

      ... these are the four things, I think, that schools should be doing.

    12. JH

      That's right.

    13. RC

      Or maybe the two things. So maybe, can you-

    14. JH

      Sure

    15. RC

      ... can you g-

    16. JH

      Yep

    17. RC

      ... walk us through that?

    18. JH

      That's right. So we've been talking about mental health as the main outcome variable here, but education and learning are actually also being harmed. That is, what our kids know. In America, we have good data. It was going up and up slowly until 2012, and since 2012, academic attainment has been dropping, and that's true around the world. Once kids had these distraction devices in school, if they're texting all the time, if they're watching porn videos, some of the boys, of course, they're not listening to the teacher. They're not learning as much. So schools have a real imperative, not just for mental health. And you talk to the head of any school, "What are your top issues?" Mental health, depression, self-harm.

    19. RC

      Mm.

    20. JH

      It's gonna be the tops for, for e- everybody dealing with m- with teens. Um, but education is vital, too. Schools are supposed to educate our kids, and they care about that outcome. Um, so the, the idea that kids can have the greatest distraction device ever made in their pockets is just horrible. Of course, they shouldn't. But now let's suppose we get rid of the phones from kids-

    21. RC

      From schools

    22. JH

      ... from schools. So the kids have, they have to lock them up in the morning. They get it at the end of the day. That's the right policy.

    23. RC

      Do you... And at what age are you proposing that continues until?

    24. JH

      Oh, all the way through secondary school.

    25. RC

      So until 18?

    26. JH

      Yes, until 18.

    27. RC

      Okay.

    28. JH

      Yeah, yeah. Uh, and, you know, at university, we can't tell the students, you know, to-

    29. RC

      No

    30. JH

      ... but, but what I can, what I've begun doing is telling my students, even my MBA students who are 28, let's say. I say, "No screens whatsoever, no screens of any kind." I used to let them use screens because, you know, but I'd make them pledge, "I will only use it for class." But what I learned from them and from the TA who would walk around the back of the room, they can't do it. They can't do it. If they have their laptop open, they're shopping, they're texting, they're doing things.

  15. 1:38:14 – 1:54:56

    Homework on screens and the path forward: sleep, distraction, norms, and rebuilding play-based childhood

    1. RC

      Yeah. I wanna talk about homework being given-

    2. JH

      Mm-hmm

    3. RC

      ... on screens.

    4. JH

      Mm-hmm.

    5. RC

      It's a topic I'm really passionate about because I think it's happened so quickly post-COVID.

    6. JH

      Yeah.

    7. RC

      And I'm... Look, I'm not an educationalist, right? So I don't know-

    8. JH

      Mm-hmm

    9. RC

      ... what has been thought of in those meetings, the departments-

    10. JH

      Mm

    11. RC

      ... whether they've thought about the impacts on health-

    12. JH

      Yeah

    13. RC

      ... or whether they've just thought about the, the benefits-

    14. JH

      Mm

    15. RC

      ... of doing it in that way.

    16. JH

      Mm.

    17. RC

      I'm sure there are benefits.

    18. JH

      Mm-hmm.

    19. RC

      I'm actually dead against it. And, and on a personal level, I feel now that my son has to turn in homework on his screen-

    20. JH

      Mm-hmm

    21. RC

      ... it's getting a lot more difficult now to maintain screen-free time in the evenings.

    22. JH

      Yeah. That's right.

    23. RC

      Right?

    24. JH

      That's right.

    25. RC

      And so I just-

    26. JH

      Yeah

    27. RC

      ... had this down just before you came in. For me, there's four reasons.

    28. JH

      Okay.

    29. RC

      And I'd welcome your perspective-

    30. JH

      Mm-hmm

Episode duration: 1:54:56

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