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Dr Rangan ChatterjeeDr Rangan Chatterjee

What Walking Every Day Does To Your Body & Life! - Heal Pain, Posture & Longevity | Helen Hall

Today, I am delighted to welcome back my dear friend, Helen Hall, for her 3rd appearance on my podcast.

Helen HallguestDr. Rangan Chatterjeehost
Oct 2, 20242h 14mWatch on YouTube

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Transcript

  1. 0:00 – 1:34

    Reframing walking as daily movement with whole-body benefits

    1. HH

      I think that if we just called it movement-

    2. RC

      Mm-hmm

    3. HH

      ... rather than exercise, people might attach a little bit more value to just the action of walking. If we think about what we do habitually, so we might go to the supermarket, but search for the parking spot that's closest to the entrance door, instead of maybe parking the furthest away, walking-

    4. RC

      Mm-hmm

    5. HH

      ... to the supermarket, pushing the trolley around, and then having to walk with the trolley, loaded now, back to the car. That adds value, movement value to the day because of all of the effects of walking. Walking is a whole body movement practice. Every single bit of you-

    6. RC

      Mm-hmm

    7. HH

      ... is moving. Even the head is moving, but you just don't realize it because the eye reflexes are ironing out the bobbly nature of-

    8. RC

      Yeah

    9. HH

      ... the head movement. But it's the top of the body is moving because of the arm swing. The bottom of the body is obviously moving because you've got... putting one foot in-

    10. RC

      Mm-hmm

    11. HH

      ... front of the other. There's a twist in the middle, which is an internal massage for your internal organs.

    12. RC

      Mm-hmm.

    13. HH

      And because it's loaded in the field of gravity, you're... whilst you're not having particular impact forces, you're still having your body weight impacting. When you leave the ground and run, you've got more than your body weight impacting. But there is still load and impact going through the, the joints, the bones, the muscles.

  2. 1:34 – 4:02

    Why walking matters beyond calorie burn: circulation, gut function, and self-massage

    1. RC

      Yeah. I mean, as, as you said in our first conversation, running is a fundamentally human movement. Walking is also a core human movement, and I think that many of us, myself included, a few decades ago, I would say, would neglect walking, right? And if I, if I think about why has walking been neglected so much, there's quite a few reasons come to mind. First of all, I think for many people, they look at movement or exercise, as it's commonly known, as a way of burning off calories, right? So everything around health and wellbeing, or many things for many years, have been boiled down to how many calories are you consuming and how many can you expend by exercising, right? So when we look at walking through that lens, I think a lot of people go, "Well, you know, I don't have long. I, I can't be faffing around walking. I need to get in some intensity and get moving and running and actually skipping and get my heart moving." Right? So I think that's one thing. I think another part of it for me, and I, I definitely want your perspective on this, is that we don't think enough about the innateness of walking within us, about what it does. Things that I've learnt from you, this contralateral movement, you know, the kind of twist in the body as you walk. You call it a self-massaging-

    2. HH

      We are a self-massaging, uh, innately, uh, self-caring, self-healing organism.

    3. RC

      Yeah. And, and that... I think I wanted you to expand on that because people look at walking and go, "Okay, well, how many calories does it burn?" Well, we forget that actually it's meant to be really efficient. It's meant to not burn many calories at all. That's the goal of walking. It doesn't mean it has no value. It's good for your, as you say, your tendons, your ligaments, your brain function. Um, and even what you said about self-massaging. And, and a theme throughout today's conversation is gonna be how the whole body is connected, Helen, right? 'Cause I think that really speaks to your work, and what I try and do with health on this show each week is this idea about self-massaging. So many people have gut problems, so many people struggle with constipation, and they don't realize that actually walking regularly can kind of compress and sort of massage your gut.

  3. 4:02 – 6:12

    Venous return and the “heel drop” mechanism in walking

    1. HH

      So people think that a venous return, a strong pump of the blood back up to the heart from our hardworking, you know, below the knee area, uh, uh, that calf raises are going to pump that blood back to us. 'Cause we're a little bit of a giraffe. You're particularly a giraffe. So our heart is way up here, and our hardworking legs are below. So we need a strong pump to draw that blood, um, back up. And people think of calf raises, so they're going up onto their toes to contract the calf tissue. And actually, for a very long time, it's been known that the strongest venous return, the strongest draw on the venous system, is actually dropping the heel into the step, i.e. walking.

    2. RC

      Yeah.

    3. HH

      So the strongest venous return. So you are getting the circulation act- action through just popping the heel into the step, rolling through.

    4. RC

      It's an innately human movement.

    5. HH

      Yes.

    6. RC

      We h- we have to do it. And I think a lot of... I mean, I'm trying to think back now to when we learn about this. I mean, obviously I learnt about this at medical school. But if we go back, I'm pretty sure people who do GCSE biology probably learn about the fact that the heart is a pump. It pumps blood out all around the body. And of course, the extremities, the bits furthest from the heart, especially me with my long legs-

    7. HH

      [laughs] Exactly

    8. RC

      ... are your feet, right?

    9. HH

      Yeah.

    10. RC

      But there's no pump. There's no-- There is a pump, but there's no kind of pump from the body, as it were, to return that blood back to the heart. So the question is, how does it come back up?

    11. HH

      Yeah.

    12. RC

      And obviously people have ankle swelling. They have all kinds of issues when their venous return is not working well, and you're basically saying that walking is the most powerful way of keeping that venous return going.

    13. HH

      Yeah. Rolling through from the heel to the toe. You, you can't micromanage it. Don't be thinking about touching down and rolling around the outside and coming off the foot in a particular way. It's all happening so fast, you can't micromanage. You'll mess with timing.

    14. RC

      Mm-hmm.

  4. 6:12 – 9:46

    Understanding the lymphatic system and why walking supports it

    1. HH

      But it's just allowing, uh, a walking action to be part of your movement daily practice. Don't underestimate it, because your lymphatic system is entirely connected to your venous system. There's the amazing anatomist who takes the skin off- To reveal what is happening just underneath

    2. RC

      Mm

    3. HH

      And, and he's dissected to, um, arteries and veins, and you can kind of see-

    4. RC

      Mm

    5. HH

      ... the form of the person just with the motorway. It looks like a roadmap of arteries and veins. When he dissected to the, um, extent of the lymphatic system, you could see facial features. The lymphatic system is so vast that, and so fine, and so with no skin on, you could literally see the contours of the person's face just with the lymphatic vessels being visible underneath the skin.

    6. RC

      D- and what does that tell us? That there are so many lymphatic-

    7. HH

      So many

    8. RC

      ... vessels.

    9. HH

      Vast. It's a vaster network than the cardiovascular system.

    10. RC

      Okay, so a lot of people may not have heard of the term lymphatic system before, right? They might have heard of cardiovascular system, all these blood vessels and blood flowing through them to deliver oxygen around the body. What's the lymphatic system for?

    11. HH

      So it's for metabolic waste fluid. So it, it collects everything that you have used or is broken or is dead cells, broken cells. Um, and the lymphatic system is responsible for gathering all of those up, uh, organizing them, and eliminating them.

    12. RC

      And walking is also good for lymphatic system.

    13. HH

      It... Well, it, it, the, the lymphatics are attached to the action of the venous system. So if the strongest venous, um, return known to man is dropping the heel into the step in the walking action, then it is the same for the lymphatics. Walking is the thing to help the lymphatic circulation, um, stay optimum. It optimizes it.

    14. RC

      So we are born to walk.

    15. HH

      It would appear so.

    16. RC

      Well, let, let's just really dive in here, Helen, because I, I wanna, I wanna upgrade the way people view walking and, you know, to share my own experience, I've worked with you now for, when was it? It was probably around January 2020.

    17. HH

      Yeah.

    18. RC

      It was literally two weeks after Chris Evans challenged me to do the-

    19. HH

      [laughs]

    20. RC

      ... London Marathon, right? So I remember it well. Four and a half years later, we're still working together, and I'm still improving my movement. I've learnt many things from you, which I've shared on the first two podcasts, but I'd say one of the most important is that I've really understood how important walking is, and I have made changes in my life so that I walk every day, right? So it's-

    21. HH

      Brilliant

    22. RC

      ... you know, and, because I can see how important it is for my running, for my general health, for my lymphatic system, for my cardiovascular system. It is who we are as humans. You know, not many animals, if any, I think, can walk like humans. Is that right?

    23. HH

      Uh, nobody walks like a human because we're the only upright mammal that has, uh, the twist in the system that enables us to move within the field of gravity rather than having to bounce in and out of it. So we, we do when we're running, we leave the ground, so there's a degree of bounce. But when we're walking, when we ambulate, we're pretty steady. We're twisting within the field of gravity, which is more efficient.

  5. 9:46 – 14:46

    What modern walking looks like: heads down, reduced awareness, and the loss of play

    1. RC

      And if you were to sit in a café in the middle of London, okay? And with all your decades of experience of helping people get out of pain, move more efficiently, walk better, run better, faster, and all those kind of things, if we take the state of Western society today, right? And you were to sit in Central London in a café, and you were people-watching, what would you see or what are things that you commonly see when people are walking by in terms of what they're perhaps not doing as well as they could be doing?

    2. HH

      Oh, gosh, what a fascinating question. I think what I would see, uh, is heads down, eyes down, eyes looking at things rather than just seeing everything. So peripheral vision not being present, just looking at stuff. Um, and I don't think people are aware of their movements. I think we are not aware of how we're moving until something goes wrong.

    3. RC

      Mm.

    4. HH

      Then we become aware. So the people in pain will show themselves to be in pain because there'll be, uh, maybe a facial expression or an avoidance of a certain area. So you'll see asymmetry of movement. You'll see timing off. Y- you'll see all the things that, for me, I feel are born of, uh, a collective. We're not, we're not shown at any point in our lives to become aware of our movements. We just, we just walk, and then we break into a trot, and then at some point, for, for the most part, sadly, people stop running. When, when did that happen? When did we stop running? When did we stop making ourselves dizzy? When did we stop playing? And then, and then the demise starts because you stop noticing how you're moving 'cause you're moving less.

    5. RC

      Yeah. The whole use it or lose it, right?

    6. HH

      Yes.

    7. RC

      If we're not using something and giving our brain the stimulus, then it's gonna start downgrading those things because it feels it doesn't need them anymore.

    8. HH

      Yes.

    9. RC

      Um, I think we all recognize what you're talking about. We recognize it in ourselves. We recognize it in other people, this idea that people are walking around now with their heads down. And instead of having that wide peripheral vision, that relaxed low-stress state, people are often walking focused- ... with concentric vision on something on their phone, for example-

    10. HH

      Yeah

    11. RC

      ... right?

    12. HH

      Yeah.

    13. RC

      So let's unpick all of that. I guess if I think about our first two conversations, and I know you've been drowned in direct messages, as have I since then, because people have found them so useful. I would say two of the most helpful things people have reported back to me, and I think you, was the idea of having your head position in the right place. Basically, having your head on right, as it were, and you explained in f- in both of the conversations the impact when our head is not sat and perched on top of our ribcage and our pelvis, right?

    14. HH

      Yeah.

    15. RC

      And many people will recognize that they have head forward positions. So many people have got in touch to say since you helped them become aware of that and they put their head on right, all kinds of pain has gone-

    16. HH

      Mm

    17. RC

      ... without medication, without seeing a therapist.

    18. HH

      Mm.

    19. RC

      They've, they've managed to use that awareness themselves, right?

    20. HH

      Mm.

    21. RC

      Hip pain, knee pain, back pain, all kinds of things have gone.

    22. HH

      Mm.

    23. RC

      The second one, I think, which has also been really helpful for people, is foot wiping.

    24. HH

      Yes. [laughs]

    25. RC

      Right?

    26. HH

      The simplest things.

    27. RC

      Yeah. So people just w- you know, for want of a better term, waking up their feet every day-

    28. HH

      Mm

    29. RC

      ... which have gone to sleep because of the way we live now, cushioned shoes, um, socks, not being barefoot much, right? For people who haven't heard those first two conversations, there's a lot there, right, for people. So let's just zoom out and go, one of the central things I feel we wanna get across is that the whole body is connected.

    30. HH

      Yes.

  6. 14:46 – 19:44

    Forward head posture explained with the “Christmas decoration” load analogy

    1. HH

      No. Doesn't surprise me at all because I've been in clinic for too many years and measured it for so long, I, I see it unfold in front of me. So if you consider your head as a Christmas decoration, and you put your, uh, Christmas decoration, uh, close to the trunk of the Christmas tree, doesn't matter how heavy that Christmas decoration is, that branch is going to be fine.

    2. RC

      Yeah.

    3. HH

      If... So you haven't changed the weight of that Christmas decoration, but the further you send it along that branch all the way to the last little tip, it influences more and more and more the branch of that particular tree. So if we consider the c- the Christmas tree decoration right next to the trunk on the branch, and the branch is not bothered. But now you're further away from the trunk towards the extremity of that branch, it's going to start to bend the branch.

    4. RC

      Yeah.

    5. HH

      To the extent of its weight, it will be more and more and more and more, and it's, it's not really very linear. Uh, this, this change in effective load isn't particularly linear. So when your, uh, when your head, the Christmas tree decoration, is right next to the trunk at the end of the branch, uh, closer to the trunk, it's about five kilos, roughly, an adult human head. Its effective load is five kilos.

    6. RC

      Which is pretty heavy.

    7. HH

      Which is heavy, and... But our amazing bodies are well-versed in managing that mass, managing it from one foot to... one side to the other. Then you shove that Christmas tree decoration fifteen degrees further along the branch. Now, that Christmas tree dec- Christmas tree decoration, easy for me to say, is effectively on the trunk of the tree now 12 kilos. Its effective load is twe-

    8. RC

      Okay

    9. HH

      ... It's more than double.

    10. RC

      So you have a five-kilo weight, when we're talking about the head here, basically, and you're saying if it's 15 degrees forwards-

    11. HH

      Yes

    12. RC

      ... that five-kilo weight effectively becomes 12 kilos, right?

    13. HH

      Yes.

    14. RC

      So if any one of us have a 15-degree head forward posture, and you can explain in a minute how common that is and how much you've measured that, right? We're looking around seven extra kilos. That's a lot of weight just to, just to go around. We're, we're literally... We're weight training things that we shouldn't be weight training [laughs] when we walk. So I guess it's not surprising then that that would cause pain. But some people say, "Okay, but if it's forward, presumably I'll just feel it on my neck, right?"

    15. HH

      Well-

    16. RC

      But how does that affect my knee and my back?

    17. HH

      Yeah. So there's no absolutes in movement. You can't... Uh, I can see a poor head, and I would... If somebody's in pain, I won't be able to predict where the pain is. Uh, it could be in the neck. It could be in the lower back, where the lower back is the, is the area that's taking the most strain. It could be the knee. It could be, um, the sole of the foot with plantar fasciitis. It could be anywhere. You can't look at a, a frame, any asymmetry in the frame, whether viewed from the side or viewed from the front or the back, you can't predict where the pain is. W- what you can do is then understand when you know where the pain is, you can then understand, okay, well, that's a, a compressive pain born of too much load, or it's a pulling pain born of the load being in an-

    18. RC

      Okay

    19. HH

      ... an, an unhelpful place. So the, the- The importance of the head position, people would say, "Well, I have no pain. You know, there is no pain, so what do I care?" Well, from my point of view, it's only efficiency, so you are, you are moving less efficiently than you could do. Things could be easier. You could, uh, go further or faster or both with your head in a better place. And you've got to, "Well, I'm not in any pain," but it's not just pain, is it? Our, our whole movement system, our whole body isn't designed just for being in pain or out of pain. You need health for your internal organs.

    20. RC

      Yeah.

    21. HH

      And if your head is too far forward, that, that is bowing, so the, the, the trunk is being bent over. The branch is being bent over, and that is squishing your internal organs.

    22. RC

      Yeah.

    23. HH

      So you have less circulation around those, those organs that we rely on to do all the things that are invisible. Movement is visible on the outside. Internal organs are invisible until they complain.

  7. 19:44 – 29:54

    Pain as multifactorial: symptoms, thresholds, and why timing misleads us

    1. RC

      Yeah, th- this is such a key point, right? Are we looking at our movement, our ability to move or our inability to not move only through the lens of pain? Because that's a problem. Of course, pain-

    2. HH

      It's a limited view

    3. RC

      ... It's a limited view. Of course, nobody wants to be in pain, and I think for many of us, we get away with and tolerate poor movement habits and patterns until we get pain. Because until we get pain, there's no motivation for us to change things, we think.

    4. HH

      There's no feedback. You're not getting feedback because you're not aware. You're not even thinking about how you feel. You're just oblivious to everything until something goes wrong, until there's pain, until your gastric system doesn't work well.

    5. RC

      And then it doesn't mean that when you go and see the physio or the doctor or the osteopath or you or whoever they're going to see to help them, it doesn't mean just 'cause the pain started four weeks ago, it doesn't mean that the problem started four weeks ago.

    6. HH

      No.

    7. RC

      The problem could've been going on for five years. You were just getting away with it, but maybe the stresses in your life got to the point where you tipped over your threshold. Now it manifests in pain.

    8. HH

      Yes, exactly.

    9. RC

      Which those are key points for people.

    10. HH

      And, and that could, that tipping point could have been, uh, more movement. It could have been less movement. It could have been a stressful time in your life. It could have been, you know, food poisoning. It could have been a really bad meal that you, um-

    11. RC

      Mm-hmm

    12. HH

      ... ate.

    13. RC

      Bereavement.

    14. HH

      Yes.

    15. RC

      Divorce.

    16. HH

      So, so m- pain is, uh, people say, it's so commonly said, but it's so true, it's multifactorial. It is not a thing. It doesn't stem from a thing. We're not so fragile that one little thing throws the system out.

    17. RC

      Yeah.

    18. HH

      It is, it, it is, uh, we are resilient until, okay, now we're struggling. So let's unpick why we are now struggling. It won't just be a thing-

    19. RC

      Yeah

    20. HH

      ... in my experience.

    21. RC

      A- and I think another key point there for me, which I really want people to understand, is that as we said, it's not just about pain, although putting your head on right will help you potentially with m- many of your pains, right? Or you won't know what it will help with until you sort it out.

    22. HH

      Yeah. Yes, yes, that's a good point. How much of what is happening in my body is simply attached to the position of the head?

    23. RC

      Yeah, and it reminds me of how I look at health and have done for, I don't know, 12, 13 years now. I don't know how much of a patient's symptoms are down to food, movement, sleep, and stress, the four pillars of health, as I call them, until I've addressed them.

    24. HH

      Yes.

    25. RC

      So I cannot say that this person has depression yet. They may have symptoms that make me think that those symptoms are consistent with a diagnosis of depression. A, I'm not a fan of labeling things anyway 'cause I think those labels become our internal beliefs about ourself, and I don't find it that helpful. Even though the medical system kind of wants you to label what a patient has, I've never really liked that. But the amount of people I've seen with joint pains, stomach issues, uh, mood issues, that when you help them go to a whole food diet, move regularly, like walking 30 minutes a day, have good circadian biology, right? Get natural light in the morning. Focus on a regular sleep time, six to eight hours of sleep per night, something like that, and help them manage stress. I feel that's the equivalent of your head position.

    26. HH

      Yes.

    27. RC

      Right? Get those things right, then let's see what's left.

    28. HH

      What's left.

    29. RC

      Yes, sometimes there's stuff left, but sometimes there isn't.

    30. HH

      Yeah.

  8. 29:54 – 32:52

    How common forward head posture is and how it relates to headaches

    1. HH

      Uh, it's ridiculously common.

    2. RC

      Wow.

    3. HH

      30 degrees is ridiculously common.

    4. RC

      30 degrees?

    5. HH

      30 degrees.

    6. RC

      And you said it's not linear.

    7. HH

      No.

    8. RC

      Right, so 15, 15 degrees is making that five kilo weight 12 kilos.

    9. HH

      Yeah.

    10. RC

      So the fact that it's not linear means that it's not that that will go up another seven to 19 kilos, will it? It w-

    11. HH

      No, no, it's not linear. So the, the very clever scientists have done the maths for us, and, uh, thankfully... So fif- 30 ki- uh, 30 degrees is a, a roughly 18 kilos. So you go from five to 12 to 18. Then it goes, uh, so 45 degrees, which I, I do measure. It's not common, but they're in a world of trouble. 45 degrees of forward lean of the neck, uh, is, um, roughly 22 kilos. Uh, and then 60 degrees is 27 kilos roughly. 27 kilos

    12. RC

      Uh, Helen, I'm just thinking back to my-

    13. HH

      People are epically strong. They're stronger than they realize

    14. RC

      ... I'm thinking back to patients that I've seen over the course of my career and thinking how many cases of headaches and neck pain have come in when nobody has assessed the head position

    15. HH

      The head position

    16. RC

      ... because if, if you just think about that through the lens of the weight that your neck muscles will have to carry, how do we know?

    17. HH

      And the pressure at the base of the skull because unless you are looking down at the floor, you're going to have, uh, a forward posture, a more rounded posture, but then the head tilts back a little bit so that you can see where you're going. So then you've got pressure at the base-

    18. RC

      Mm

    19. HH

      ... of the skull-

    20. RC

      Yeah

    21. HH

      ... uh, which adds to the complication of things like headaches.

    22. RC

      And I see Gareth in the corner there just adjusted his posture as we were talking.

    23. HH

      [laughs]

    24. RC

      Bit straighter there. Head position. That's what happens when we hear this stuff, right?

    25. HH

      Love it.

    26. RC

      We... This stuff kind of happens.

    27. HH

      Awareness, yeah.

    28. RC

      Awareness. Right. Okay. So Helen, I, I put out on my Instagram that you're coming back on, and does anyone have any questions? Oh, wow, we got hundreds. [laughs] Okay. Now, we have grouped a lot of them together. I'm not sure we're gonna be able to cover them all. I hope we can, but there's all kinds of things we're gonna cover. Training advice, things to get people out of pain, stress incontinence for women, all kinds of things we're gonna get to, but let's just stick at the moment with head position, right? We're gonna get to foot wiping 'cause I said that these are the two things that have really moved the needle for people. Many people heard those conversations. They- they bought your book or got some of your online courses, and they've learnt how to put their head on right, and they've experienced the benefits. There are quite a few people have sent a message saying, "Listen, I totally get it. I want to, but what happens if I have a forward head posture, and I have done

  9. 32:52 – 43:00

    Practical head-position resets: finding the “wibbly wobbliest” place and reconnecting segments

    1. RC

      for many years, and all my ligaments and tendons are tight, so I can't put the head back?" What do you say to those people?

    2. HH

      That's a really good question. So the first thing you do is you don't force anything. Uh, it is... We, we need to be kinder. So when we become aware of the problem, we can't just wade in, uh, and just, um, fix it immediately. There- Sometimes you can, and sometimes you have to just be a little bit more patient and a little bit kinder. You start the process through understanding, well, why is my head over there? Why am I stuck in this posture? What am I doing day in, day out to reinforce this, and what aren't I doing to help myself get out of this posture? So it's... Some people can just, because they, they had no idea about it, uh, they find that place where they have maximum head rotation, and all is well. Marvelous.

    3. RC

      Remind ourselves of that head rotation piece because I think it was so helpful for people.

    4. HH

      Yeah. So if you're... If you jut your head forward and you rotate your head to look over each shoulder, you have a certain range, whatever that range is. Don't, don't force it. Just, you know, just end-

    5. RC

      So, so-

    6. HH

      ... your movement and come back to the middle again

    7. RC

      ... so we intentionally are putting our, jutting our head out into a posture we don't want-

    8. HH

      Yeah

    9. RC

      ... and trying to rotate our head to each side-

    10. HH

      Yeah, yeah

    11. RC

      ... and just paying attention to how far we can go.

    12. HH

      Yeah.

    13. RC

      Okay.

    14. HH

      And then you just, uh, you, you find the most wibbly, wobbliest place for your head. So if I go, if I've jutted my head forward, I have not much in the way of-

    15. RC

      No

    16. HH

      ... movement. I feel a bit stuck. So then I'll just send it back a little bit more, and I'll have a little bit more movement, and then I'll settle myself in my most wibbly, wobbliest place, and then I'll have maximum movement.

    17. RC

      And you want... The head should be there with maximum movement.

    18. HH

      Y- yes, because then that, that reflects down the system. So if you're standing up when you do that, you'll find that it's not just your head that has more range of motion rotationally. It will also have more range of motion with tilt. Uh, the shoulder girdle will tilt more. The shoulder girdle will rotate more. The pelvic girdle will tilt more, and the pelvic girdle will rotate more.

    19. RC

      All from your head position-

    20. HH

      Yes

    21. RC

      ... which also explains why people were saying hip got better, knee got better, you know, shoulder got better because the head being in the right place ripples down like a chain throughout the entire body.

    22. HH

      Absolutely. So you are maximizing your movement potential when your head is in its perfect place. And sometimes it doesn't, it doesn't have to be... It doesn't have to look perfect, whatever that is. If, if it's better, you will get more. If it's less forward than it was, you will gain, your whole system will gain to the degree it can come back.

    23. RC

      So we're not looking for perfection. We're just saying where you currently are now, if your head isn't perched on right, and if you're getting an increased range of motion in your neck when you start to pop it back, it probably means it wasn't on as well as it could be.

    24. HH

      Yeah.

    25. RC

      Just practice there.

    26. HH

      Yeah. And i- you will notice some things, and then some people will find themselves continually slumping. So when they're thinking about it, they can access a better position, but when they're not thinking about it, they collapse again. So the innateness of a structure that has maximum movement potential, it seems to be stuck somewhere in a corner. It's not immediately available. So then the question is why. Well, why, if you know all about it, but you can only have it through awareness, where is the innateness? So, so then, uh, so I've talked about lying on your back and, uh, using the, the skin contact to find where your head is.

    27. RC

      That was in our second conversation.

    28. HH

      Yeah.

    29. RC

      Yeah.

    30. HH

      And what you can also do is explore a little bit further down. So if you imagine where the necklace sits on the back of your neck, so, um- So where we put the Doris sticker when you're being measured, but it's where a necklace would sit at the back of the base of the neck

  10. 43:00 – 47:28

    “Topping and tailing”: why head and feet are high-impact levers for the whole system

    1. RC

      Okay. So we talked a lot about head position. Let's talk about foot wiping

    2. HH

      Yes

    3. RC

      ... because I think then when we talk about these different pains that people have written in with, I think it will perhaps be helpful to frame it around both of those. Now, a question that's just come to me is I've realized that the two, or two of the practical interventions you have mentioned to people on the last two podcasts we did together that have had a huge impact are to do with the extremities of the body, right? The head and the feet. Now, before we get into foot wiping, is there something we can learn from that, that getting your extremities right can solve a lot of problems?

    4. HH

      Yes. Uh, topping and tailing I call it. Um, and because it feeds into the system. The, the brain accesses the information from our extremities, feeding into, uh, the spine, uh, the spinal cord, the brain, everything on that central axis in order for the brain then to organize the movement. It's a very complex business, movement. We don't understand it because we don't yet understand the brain. Uh, and the brain is moving us, so until we fully understand the brain, we don't understand movement. So there is no certainty of, of anything really, there's only experience, and you are your best, um, marker for all of your experiences and your knowledge of your own body.

    5. RC

      Mm.

    6. HH

      So whilst there are, there's lots of research out there, which can be very helpful, if it didn't work for you, if whatever research you read and you tried it and it didn't work for you, your body is telling you something. Your body knows best, and we still don't know everything about the body. So that is by a torturous way, I feel, of, of saying, "Don't lose sight of your sixth sense. Don't lose sight of your innate knowingness, your gut feeling that you're trying this and this and this and, and you're not getting... your body-

    7. RC

      Yeah

    8. HH

      ... isn't receiving the information in the way that you might have hoped it would've, or you might have been told it would've, or you've read that it would've."

    9. RC

      Yeah.

    10. HH

      We still don't understand it all, so we have to go, "Okay, well, it worked for my friend, but it didn't work for me. Let's explore a little bit more and cast our web a little bit, our sticky exploration fingers a little bit wider."

    11. RC

      Yeah. I, I love that point. I'm so passionate about that, that we actually know at our core what is best for us when it comes to our health and wellbeing.

    12. HH

      Yes.

    13. RC

      And I feel we've outsourced our own inner expertise to external experts far too much. There's nothing wrong with listening to, in inverted commas, experts and learning from their experience and their research and their knowledge, but ultimately you have to put it through your own filter and go, "Is that for me?" In the world of running, and in many worlds frankly, there's a lot of different running techniques out there that people teach. And one thing that has always appealed to me about your approach, and I remember this very early on when we were working together, when, when we started working together, is that you said something like, "Well, I don't have a running method. There is no Helen Hall running method," right? "That would be, first of all, really, really arrogant," is what you said to me. And secondly, it's like the, the whole idea is that no, run in a way that is most efficient for your body. And certain techniques work for certain people. That's why they became techniques, but it doesn't mean they work for everyone.

    14. HH

      Yes. And might I just say that you express what I was trying to find the words for so beautifully [laughs] that when I listen back to this, I'm going to write it down.

    15. RC

      [laughs]

    16. HH

      So thank you for that. Um, yes. There is... For me, it- we need to let our body run us, and if it's uncomfortable, we then need to explore why that might be. Is it because walking is uncomfortable for us and we're taking that same body with us into our run? Is the root cause of the running problem actually within the walking body-

    17. RC

      Yeah

    18. HH

      ... [laughs] and not just in the running body, and you're just getting the symptoms either during or after a run because now you're adding impact into the equation?

  11. 47:28 – 1:01:09

    Why some people run better than they walk: complexity, “speed hides need,” and misattributed pain

    1. RC

      This is something I've learnt through my work with you, Helen, and you've shown me on Doris, and it's been so clear, that some people run better than they walk.

    2. HH

      So many.

    3. RC

      Right. This is, I think, gonna be brand-new information for people. I think a lot of people think that, "I can walk fine, it's when I run that there's an issue." Perhaps you could just elaborate and explain why it is that some people are seemingly better when they run, but that doesn't mean that they should neglect their walking. [laughs]

    4. HH

      No. It- quite the reverse, uh, because the, the problems are stemming from, uh, the walking action, which is more complex than running. So neurologically, the most complex thing we do is walk. So all of our initial movement, uh, is organizing the brain's development so that the brain has, uh, an innate knowing of where everything is, where your head is, where your left arm is, your right arm, where the front is, where the lower half of the body is, where the back is. We need to, to make this neurologically most complex thing of one foot in front of the other whilst one foot stays in contact with the ground, walking. The arm and leg are on opposite sides of the body, so the lead arm and leg are on opposite sides of the body. One limb is in the upper body, the other one is in the lower body. We have a twist through the system. So we have a top, bottom, front, back, left, right on the diagonal.

    5. RC

      Mm-hmm.

    6. HH

      ... astonishingly complex.

    7. RC

      Yeah

    8. HH

      And we can't make a robot do it. We can make a robot, uh, run like a human. We can make a robot do all sorts of gymnastic stuff like a human. But if you see a robot walk, they walk robotically, because it's so complex we haven't fathomed it.

    9. RC

      It reminds me, Helen, of a conversation I had with this elite cyclist, James Golding, maybe two years ago or so on this podcast, and he's got an incredible life story. He's had cancer twice. Um, he's, he's beaten the cancer, I think, in his words, and has done some incredible cycling feats around America and the world. But I always remember something he said to me. He asked me in that conversation, "What's the hardest thing you've ever done before, Rangan?" Now, I knew the answer 'cause I'd seen his TED Talk, right? But essentially, the answer was learning to walk, because he had lost the ability to walk. I think he was in hospital for months, lost a ton of weight, really, really seriously ill, and he had to teach himself to walk again. And he said that was the hardest thing he had ever done.

    10. HH

      Wow.

    11. RC

      And he was just using that as an example, and it really fits in with what you just said, which is that walking is neurologically really, really difficult. We can't get robots to do it yet, right?

    12. HH

      Yeah.

    13. RC

      But it's something we spend a lot of energy as children, as babies, as toddlers-

    14. HH

      Yeah

    15. RC

      ... you know, falling over, falling o- until we can actually do it.

    16. HH

      Yeah. And there's a, a beautiful saying that, uh, is, it speaks to it, "Speed hides need." So if you run, you, you hide the fact that there are limitations, uh, on restrictions within the system, within the walking system. So if we, if we go along the, with the premise that humans are designed to travel on two feet, one foot in front of the other, at different paces, different gears, then speed, leaving the ground, and only landing on one foot, gives freedom within a system that otherwise, when one foot has to stay on the ground, and you have to have that twist through the system, and you have to have the contralateral limb movement, it, it is, it is saving us from that. It is, you, you can... It's ironing out or, or eliminating the problem of the top-bottom opposite limb contralateral movement.

    17. RC

      So do you see people who struggle with their walking, they have pain, they have limitations, but when they run, they feel way better?

    18. HH

      Yes. Uh, the problem is then after the run, then it hurts again. So, so people can be in pain walking, run without pain, but then be in pain walking. And they think that the, uh, the running is causing the pain, but they don't wanna stop the running 'cause they feel so good with the running. They love it because it gives them freedom from-

    19. RC

      Mm

    20. HH

      ... the pain, because their, their body is moving more freely, it's less restricted. And the problem originates in the restriction in walking. But they haven't, they don't notice that there's a restriction in the walking because they've connected the problem to the running.

    21. RC

      Yeah.

    22. HH

      So the person will come, and I always ask, uh, what their goals are in clinic. So their goal, um, I ca- I want my running assessed to find out what I'm doing wrong with, what is wrong with my running. What am I doing wrong with my running? And they're, they're doing nothing wrong with their running. Their running is beautiful. This is, uh, in my experience, it's, there is no, um, forethought. There's just the thought of, "Oh, it's connected to the running." That's the end of the thought process. The, the blame is being pointed at the running because there's pain afterwards, whereas the, the running per se isn't the cause of the problem. They can't believe that they're running beautifully. They can't... When they see themselves run, they can appreciate that, oh, actually, that looks a hell of a lot better than their, when they were walking.

    23. RC

      Mm.

    24. HH

      And when they were walking, they can see the, um, the s- the, uh, awkwardness or the lack of coordination or, um, the fact that one limb is moving more than another, so one arm is swinging more than another. They can then see it and appreciate it. But it's, it's not even existing when they're running. They pick their arms up out of the equation, and that ar- that asymmetrical arm swing just disappears.

    25. RC

      So, so let's say someone is not in pain when walking, right? Because if you're in pain-

    26. HH

      Yeah

    27. RC

      ... that suddenly immediately will draw your attention to things.

    28. HH

      Yeah.

    29. RC

      But let's say someone has an inkling that they're not walking efficiently. How can someone listening to this right now assess next time they walk whether there's an issue or not?

    30. HH

      Uh, well, I, if, if we all did a little, um, checklist, if you all did a little MOT in, uh, what, um... In, in my world, so if we backpedal a little bit, I, I started, uh, creating course content on how to observe, so observational skills. Because it seemed to me that people, people say, "Well, how can you see that?" And I don't even understand how I can see that. I just see, because my eyes are telling me stuff. But I, maybe I've been doing it for so long. Uh, for as long as I can remember, I've been watching, people watching. Not stalking, just [laughs] just-

  12. 1:01:09 – 1:20:13

    Foot wiping and rope play: waking up feet, balance effects, and self-observation

    1. RC

      Okay? So we're talking about these extremities, and we're talking about how people... I think people now understand if your head's on right, they can feel and understand that there will be a knock-on effect in many different parts of the body. What happens with the feet?

    2. HH

      Well, it's really, uh, when, when you measure 100% of many, many multiple measurements that there are, uh, there's better flow through the feet, there's better timing through the feet, there are more even forces through the feet, more f- more of the foot is being involved in the roll through the foot. When the stride is, uh, effortlessly extending, when, when the, the feet were too close together and the tracking, the space between the feet as you walked was too narrow, and they were effectively walking a tightrope, when that naturally widens, when 100% of people you measure have that, um, result, measurable result. So they're all saying things like, "Well, it feels different. I'm... It's hard to put my finger on it really, but you know, it feels... I feel more stable," or, "I feel more balanced," or, "I feel more grounded," or, "Oh, I feel more of my foot." And then some people say, "Well, I'm not quite sure. I, I can't, I can't quite find the words." And then as soon as they see on Doris what has happened, "Oh, I felt that. Yes, I could feel that."

    3. RC

      And that's the advantage of going on it, isn't it? Because, uh, you don't have to go on it, but have, you know, having been fortunate enough to go on, on multiple occasions, it's, it's really awesome to see what happens on Doris beforehand, and see the limitations, and then you do something like foot wiping for two minutes-

    4. HH

      Yeah

    5. RC

      ... right? Cheap, super accessible to everyone, and then you go back on Doris, go, "Oh my God, I can't believe how much better I'm moving."

    6. HH

      Yeah.

    7. RC

      And you've obviously seen that way more than me.

    8. HH

      Yeah.

    9. RC

      It's pretty incredible, isn't it?

    10. HH

      Yeah. And so when, when it's so, um, when 100% of people have these, uh, changes to varying degrees, but there's always change in the right direction, then it feels, even though it seems like an implausible movement practice, it, it behoves me to share it, to get it out. Because I feel that we don't understand movement, and when we make things overly complex, it makes it more and more inaccessible for everybody, and, and it, and it's not necessary.

    11. RC

      Well, let's look at the downside here, right?

    12. HH

      I, well, I can't think of one.

    13. RC

      Exactly. Right. So for any skeptics out there, you've measured it, right? We've got hundreds of people, if not more, getting in touch saying foot wiping has made significant improvements for them, and these are people who don't even have access to you and Doris, right? What is the harm in doing that? And it kind of intuitively makes sense that because of the way we live now, cushioned socks, thick socks from a young age, cushioned shoes where we're losing our connection with the ground, our feet are going to sleep. I think that's well-recognized that our feet are not functioning optimally.

    14. HH

      Yeah.

    15. RC

      So it, it doesn't surprise me at least that if you're gonna wake up your feet by rubbing them front and back, to the sides, on a cheap five quid mat from Amazon, right?

    16. HH

      Or even a scratchy old knackered towel.

    17. RC

      Yeah. Anything-

    18. HH

      Anything

    19. RC

      ... just to give texture and friction, you may start to get all kinds of benefits.

    20. HH

      Because it's not just that we have separated ourselves from the ground with socks and shoes. The, the separation tends to have the same, um, feel, so the same, uh, texture, the same consistency, if you like. So your socks feel like socks. Your shoes feel like shoes. So you're, you're getting the same information. You know, this idea that I'm... my feet are going to sleep, of course they're not going to sleep because they can't sleep, but it is that, it seemingly that effect. But it's not just the information coming through the skin. It's not just... So, it, yes, there's lots of, you know, hundreds of thousands of sensory nerve endings, and yes, the information is coming through from the skin of the feet, and yes, if your s- if the skin of your feet is hypersensitive and you want to run around on them or even walk on them, then we can't expect great things from feet if literally the skin doesn't want to move because it's so twitchy. But something else is also happening. When you are, uh, wiping one foot vigorously, so you're standing on one leg and you're scrubbing vigorously the other leg, you are balancing on that stance leg. There is a balancing effect. So when people say that they have, uh, solved their back problems and their hip problems, it, it, for me, it is, it's not necessarily just the skin of the sole of the feet that, um, has spoken to the back and the hip. It could equally be the fact that they have spent a religious two minutes, maybe twice a day when they're cleaning their teeth, standing on a leg while they scrub the other, so you've got movement.

    21. RC

      Mm.

    22. HH

      So this is not the same as, you know, standing still on a wobble board. You are deliberately creating movement for the system to-

    23. RC

      Mm

    24. HH

      ... organize so that they don't fall over, and then they swap, and you will feel a difference between the two.

    25. RC

      Yeah.

    26. HH

      And you've got the stubbing out a cigarette type of thing, where you're getting into the skin where the toes meet the foot.

    27. RC

      Yeah.

    28. HH

      Again, this is an internal, external rotation. So you're, you're sneaking in all this delicious movement that otherwise wouldn't have happened, and that is in addition to the information coming through from awake skin of feet that isn't hypersensitive.

    29. RC

      Yeah. I love it. It's, it's, it's a root cause intervention, right, which I like. Big fan of things which go upstream, and by doing them can impact multiple things. It's very accessible. Uh, it doesn't take long at all. It's win, win, win

    30. HH

      Yes.

  13. 1:20:13 – 1:35:54

    Stress incontinence: the pelvic floor as part of a breathing-pressure system (“tin can” model)

    1. RC

      there is a lot more we could talk about with pain, but we must get to stress incontinence for women because it's so common. I don't think I realized how common, right? Um, this is something that affects a lot of women, that causes them a lot of, I guess, embarrassment and a fear of doing things. I mean, I over the summer put out a, a challenge, a skipping challenge on Instagram just to inspire people to get moving in a fun, enjoyable, very cheap way to get moving, skipping. And loads of women have said, "Listen, my skipping days are over. I've had three kids. I've had four kids." Right. So we wanna talk about stress incontinence. I think your approach very much speaks to the idea that the body is connected. You can't just look at one thing in isolation. But first of all, maybe say, you know, how common do you think it is?

    2. HH

      Well, uh, if you Google, you'll get all sorts of different stats. Um, but it's, I have read it as common as 75% of women, uh, of whom 75% have been helped by Kegel exercises. So these are basically strength training for the pelvic floor, pull-ups, if you like, of the pelvic floor. There's still a lot of women who it doesn't help. So, uh, so if we, along with every, every modality that exists, it works for some. So everybody who has come to me with problems with stress incontinence, they have already tried, uh, what their doctor has suggested, um, what-- and they might have been sent to physiotherapy, uh, a-and they have tried that, and they've been diligent, and it hasn't helped them. So what is in the way? Because if you are strengthening a muscle, the muscle will respond by getting strong. So if you are diligently doing something, but it's not solving the problem, what else within the system is influencing, uh, the, the role of the pelvic floor? So if we actually start with the role of the pelvic floor, things get a bit easier. So of course, the symptom is leakage, uh, spontaneous, um, small, large, random. It's very difficult because people can't, uh, plan ahead. So the, so the standard, um, in, in my-- the way I hear it is, uh, the problem is the support of the inside organs, uh, and the pressure on those inside organs either prolapsing, coming out or putting too much pressure on, uh, the bladder. So we know that the, the pelvic floor is like a hammock of muscle, um, attaching front and back. Everybody knows where their pubic bone is. Everybody knows where their tailbone is. Everybody knows where their sit bones are 'cause they sit on them.

    3. RC

      So there's four points, front and back, left and right.

    4. HH

      Left and right. So it's like a little diamond.

    5. RC

      The pelvic floor is like a hammock.

    6. HH

      Like a hammock, yeah.

    7. RC

      Okay.

    8. HH

      And some people call it a diaphragm, which is really helpful. That term, thinking of it as the pelvic diaphragm, is very helpful. So if we think of, well, one of the roles, and it's not the only role, one of the roles is, um, uh, the support of the inside organs, and these muscles move. So they, they're going to move, uh, at least up and down. And because there's a left and a right, there'll be a left and a rightness too. So their role is support, yes. Um, a, it's a gravitational force role, which means gravity is, um, pushing us down, and it pushes up or, or holds us against that push down of gravity.

    9. RC

      So, okay. So there's a downward force.

    10. HH

      Force, yeah.

    11. RC

      So that's almost counteracting that downward force.

    12. HH

      Yes. And it's interesting that in embryo, the, that musculature, that diamond of musculature starts developing, um, before even heart and lungs. It's so important. It starts-

    13. RC

      Mm.

    14. HH

      We, we're at, we're at the size of a little tiny bean-

    15. RC

      Wow

    16. HH

      ... and, and our perineum is already getting busy.

    17. RC

      Wow.

    18. HH

      So it's unbelievably important. So, uh, but it doesn't act alone because nothing, nothing in our system acts alone, and we are not just muscles and bones. We're not even just muscles, bones, and fascia. We are a brain that connects everything to everything.

    19. RC

      Mm.

    20. HH

      So the brain stem, and we know this, just even think about the brain stem. The brain stem makes sure that your blood pressure is right in your thumb and the blood pressure is right in your big toe, and there's no apparent fascial or, uh, skeletal or muscular connection between the two, but they are connected because the brain connects them.

    21. RC

      Mm.

    22. HH

      So we have this- Supportive hammock, which is also contributing to intra-abdominal pressure, so the pressure of our insides in our abdomen, in the bit between the pelvic diaphragm and the breathing diaphragm, so the base of the ribs. So that's our abdominal area, which has pressures in it, intra-abdominal pressure. So if part of the role of the pelvic floor is contributing to intra-abdominal pressure, then we cannot not talk about the abdominal muscles, because they also contribute to intra-abdominal pressure. They help us, our abdominal muscles help us wee and poo, not to put too fine a point on it.

    23. RC

      So we've got the pelvic floor at the bottom.

    24. HH

      Yep.

    25. RC

      Right? On the sides and around-

    26. HH

      All the way round to the spine. Ooh

    27. RC

      ... you've got these abdominal muscles.

    28. HH

      Yeah, yeah.

    29. RC

      You've got your obliques.

    30. HH

      Yep.

  14. 1:35:54 – 1:50:29

    Practical progression for pelvic floor–diaphragm coordination: prone breathing, then seated, then movement

    1. RC

      I've just had a memory, Helen. We've been working for over four years together, so I, obviously we've done a lot during that time. But did we not once in your old clinic work on breathing, but on the breath in you're breathing into your perineum?

    2. HH

      Yes. Yeah. [laughs]

    3. RC

      And again, even saying that, I'm aware that people don't wanna talk about their perineum, and it's, you know, it's, like, people would rather avoid this. They don't wanna talk about their feet. They don't wanna talk about the perineum. But it's like-

    4. HH

      Even though they might be sitting on it right now with these shoes

    5. RC

      ... even though you're sitting on... You've kind of got to, guys, right? You have to get familiar with different parts of your body and actually learn how to use them if you want to be in good health.

    6. HH

      Yeah.

    7. RC

      Right? I so want this conversation to help women who are struggling with stress incontinence, right?

    8. HH

      Me too.

    9. RC

      I think we understand the tin can analogy.

    10. HH

      Okay, great.

    11. RC

      Right? I think we hopefully understand that you have to have the top of the tin can come down as you breathe in, 'cause you, you want your diaphragm to come down. That's what it should do.

    12. HH

      That's-

    13. RC

      But you also, that also means... It, look, this was a helpful key for me. I don't know if it, you found it helpful for people. Well, when you're breathing in, you're focusing on the diaphragm coming down, but you're also focusing on breathing into your perineum. Is that right?

    14. HH

      Yeah. You, but without forcing it.

    15. RC

      Okay.

    16. HH

      So it's, it's not a doing, it's a letting go. You are allowing the breath to fill you, uh, just fill you. If you're sitting down, allow the breath, just let go, and for so many people I work with, they cannot.

    17. RC

      They can't even let go.

    18. HH

      They cannot let go.

    19. RC

      Is that because, or is one of the reasons the fact that so many of us hold our tummies in all the time?

    20. HH

      Yes, because, uh, so Men's Health has a lot to answer for. [laughs] Um-

    21. RC

      You mean the front cover-

    22. HH

      Yeah

    23. RC

      ... images-

    24. HH

      Yeah

    25. RC

      ... of Men's Health?

    26. HH

      And, um, and our aesthetically driven society. Y- And I am, uh, I am just as susceptible to this as everybody else-

    27. RC

      [laughs]

    28. HH

      ... but I have just learned it is to my detriment if I'm forever holding my belly in. Far better, eat so that I thrive and my belly doesn't need to be held in. So I eat to feel really, really well. And when I do that, my belly doesn't bloat, and I don't need to hold it in, and I refuse point blank to hold it in because then I can't breathe. Or my breath is with my accessory muscles, so the important thing with the breath is the diaphragm is the primary or one of the primary buil- b- breathing muscles. It's a great big, great big, enormous muscle.

    29. RC

      So in terms of making this really practical for people, Helen, right? If, if, if someone's listening and they think, "Okay, this applies to me. I do hold my tummy in all the time. I have done for many years. I've got stress incontinence. Um, I've tried stuff diligently for years, and it's not worked. I wanna try broadening my approach out and dealing not just with my pelvic floor but my abs and my diaphragm together so in harmony everything starts to work and move better," right? Could this be as simple as for five minutes a day practicing deep breaths where you feel your ribs, you feel the diaphragm come down, um, maybe your belly go out a little bit? Although I- we've gotta be careful s- calling it belly breathing 'cause then people-

    30. HH

      Push their belly out

  15. 1:50:29 – 2:09:08

    Tracking width, left-right organization, and how movement patterns can influence pelvic floor function

    1. HH

      Yeah. In level two, we talk about, um, tracking width and the importance of tracking width.

    2. RC

      So that's when you're walking or running, how far are your feet apart from each other?

    3. HH

      Yeah. And because, uh, I felt the, the world might not be ready for me to talk about stress incontinence in a, uh, finding efficiency in your movement, I didn't mention stress incontinence, per se, but I talk about hanging onto a non-urgent wee. I even talk about the stories of me coaching, uh, out- uh, just outside the, the London Eye, yelling as, uh, we're running along, "Pull up on your scrotums." And so we were... 'Cause we were doing exercises, and I had to find out from the chaps, well, what does that feel like? For a girl, it- you know, it- pulling up on our pelvic floor, we all know, we all know how to do it. But what does it feel like for a bloke? Because I didn't know what it felt like for a bloke, and so we described it all, and then somebody come up, "Well, it feels like I'm pulling up on my scrotum." You think, okay, great. Thanks for that. Uh, so there it is for the chaps. The... So in the book, I talk about tracking width, which is our ability to effortlessly weight shift from one side to the other. If you are on a too narrow tracking width, so there's not enough space between your foot landing, this is the realm of IT band issues, which was another question. This is the realm of knee issues, ankle sprains, s- um, outside foot issues-

    4. RC

      Mm-hmm

    5. HH

      ... stress fractures of the fifth metatarsal, the la- the long foot bone leading to the pinky. Um, hip issues, often lower back issues. Because if you like, your pelvis is, um, the top part of the V, and your feet are landing effectively at the pointy end of the V, which is putting huge strain on the outside of the lower limb-

    6. RC

      Mm

    7. HH

      ... all the way from the outside of the foot, uh, through the ankle, through the knee, to the hip, into the back. And it is the realm of, remember we started with the anatomy of the pelvic diaphragm.

    8. RC

      Mm.

    9. HH

      It's got a front, back and a left, right.

    10. RC

      Mm.

    11. HH

      So in order for our pelvic floor to have its innate strength, the, the legs, the foot lands in this Goldilocks place. Where is it?

    12. RC

      Mm.

    13. HH

      It is the place where you access the full breadth of your foot as you roll through it.

    14. RC

      Yeah.

    15. HH

      So for everybody, it is that sweet spot. What do you need to do? Where does your foot need to be to access the full breadth of your forefoot as you roll through it? And, uh, when that happens, you will find... So, uh, uh, to briefly describe level two in the book, you're running along with your, um, tightrope running action, with feet closer together, um, than is ideal. F- and you will be able to pull a long way with your pelvic floor. You'll be able to pull it up, because it's not actually doing much. When your feet are underneath your hips, and we're not getting a laser beam out here, we're not getting a plumb line, it's just an organization of the system. The left foot is on the left side, the right foot is on the right side, and that gives innate tension to that side of the pelvic floor, and then the other side of the pelvic floor.

    16. RC

      So, so the, so your tracking width when you move also helps you with that whole central tin can unit, and also helps you-

    17. HH

      With the in- innate strength of the pelvic floor, yes

    18. RC

      ... so it helps improve stress incontinence?

    19. HH

      It, it is, it is a, it is a very good way of finding out if there's any other influence. So because it's not just holding your breath. The function of the pelvic floor, one of the functions, it's- its critical function is in assisting you getting from one side stably, the pelvic stabilization, and the information from one leg to the other through the middle.

    20. RC

      So as you walk, and we started off the conversation about how important walking is, in order to transfer our weight from one side to the other, it has to go through the pelvic floor, right?

    21. HH

      Yes.

    22. RC

      And again, just zooming out for a minute, we isolate individual parts of the body, often to our detriment, without realizing how they're all connected. But we also can say things like, "Oh, the pelvic floor is to do with holding your wee in," right?

    23. HH

      Yes.

    24. RC

      Which may be one of its roles.

    25. HH

      It is one of the roles.

    26. RC

      But it does other things as well, and if you get the whole pelvic floor moving efficiently also through movement, it's gonna help that entire tin can, and so potentially could be contributing to an improvement in your symptoms.

    27. HH

      Yes. And what is extraordinary is the person walking might have what looks like an ideal tracking width, space between their feet, and Doris will measure it. And then when they're running, they, some- they bizarrely, they go into one foot in front of the other, a very narrow tracking width. And for me, that's a spatial organization of the brain. The brain, when... Uh, and so they'll fold their arms a lot. They'll cross their legs a lot. [laughs] He said, unfolding his arms. The, their, their, their posture, they will want to hold one side to the other with their folded arms, um, to, to hug-- I, I read it as hugging the midline. They're not defensive. It's not a defensive posture. They are hugging the midline that they don't quite know. So if I see a broad static stance-

    28. RC

      Mm

    29. HH

      ... and arms crossed, I think, oh, okay. I bet you- But they will run with a narrow tracking width. And they walk beautifully. Uh, in this instance, they're walking beautifully, and they've got an ideal tracking width. And then when they run, because the brain has no clear perception on left and right spatially, so you, you might cognitively understand left and right. You don't have to do the-

    30. RC

      Mm

  16. 2:09:08 – 2:14:34

    Where to start on day one: an MOT for head, feet, and shoulder girdle awareness

    1. RC

      I think it's a really good one. If tomorrow was day one of your personal sort your life out body-wise, where would you start?

    2. HH

      Oh my goodness, that is a good one. Okay. So of course we can just say, "Well, just walk more." But that, but this is not particularly helpful because s- they, they might be moving poorly in their very complex, uh, neurologically most challenging thing we do, walking. So I would, uh, be thinking about making sure, doing a little MOT on, uh, the extremities. So-

    3. RC

      The head and the feet

    4. HH

      ... we've got, uh... And the, because the feet inform the pelvic girdle, which moves the lower back area of the spine. The hands and the arms inform the, uh, ribcage, or the shoulder girdle informs the rib cage, which moves the, um, upper part of the spine, and they kind of meet in the middle. And then of course, the head's perched on top. So for that person I would be looking for... I would be saying, "Shall we find freedom for all your extremities?" So where is the head most free?

    5. RC

      Okay.

    6. HH

      Work towards finding where that position is-

    7. RC

      Okay

    8. HH

      ... and find where you fall out of that position. Become aware of where you fall out of that position most commonly.

    9. RC

      Okay. So become aware of the head.

    10. HH

      Do you have freedom of feet? So you can do the selfie as you walk towards your camera and just see if your feet actually move and if one moves more than the other. And then you can give more freedom to feet via foot wiping and maybe rope play. And then the shoulder girdle. The shoulder girdle moving the thoracic spine. So, uh, what you, you can do is just even notice if there is a tilt to the shoulders. If there is a tilt to the shoulders, there is not freedom, uh, in the shoulder girdle. So just notice that first.

    11. RC

      Is that in the mirror? You're just looking.

    12. HH

      Looking in the mirror.

    13. RC

      And you just see is, uh, are, are your shoulders level basically-

    14. HH

      Yeah

    15. RC

      ... or are they tilted one way?

    16. HH

      Or are they tilted? And you can just do it. I would get some, um, experiential understanding of your body by not assessing and making a decision on day one. So you look in the mirror first thing and you say, "Oh, my left shoulder seems to be higher than my right." And then when you go to bed, just check, is it still the same? Do you get that a few days running? Now you have some understanding about your body and the fact that there is a tilt to the shoulder girdle. So then there is an asymmetry, which means less freedom in the shoulder girdle, which is feeding into the system. So the pelvic girdle might have to work harder because of that. The head might be influenced because of that. This, this strange place in the middle, this shoulder girdle, for me, the shoulder girdle is key because it connects the head to the body. Uh, it's 'cause it's in that neck area, and because it influences the pelvic girdle, they talk to each other. So, uh, once you have establ- So if they're level, and you do, um, a, a rotation, you know, one shoulder forward, one shoulder back, and it feels the same in both directions, then you ha- you will just gain, with more and more movement, more and more head awareness, more and more feet work, you'll just gain. You should see that translate into the shoulder girdle. If there's an asymmetry, let's do something helpful for the asymmetry. See if the improved head position changes the shoulder girdle line, so the line of your shoulders. So very often a tilted shoulder girdle is merely where you just got stuck with the forward head position. Because rarely-

    17. RC

      Mm

    18. HH

      ... do I see forward heads land, end up forward perfectly in the s- in the middle.

    19. RC

      Yeah.

    20. HH

      Rarely.

    21. RC

      So really this day one of their movement journey is all about awareness.

    22. HH

      Yes. Yes.

    23. RC

      Yeah.

    24. HH

      Just checking in to your, your, the very beginning. Uh, and then topping and tailing and seeing what happens in the middle between the topping and tailing.

    25. RC

      Yeah.

    26. HH

      And then maybe if there is a, a time next time we can do a little bit more about how to assist the, the shoulder girdle.

    27. RC

      We, we definitely will. And for people who wanna learn more, of course there's your website, but also check out Helen's Instagram. Me and Helen often do collaborations together. We're gonna film exercises together at some point and put them on Instagram. So plenty of resources out there. Helen, I think you're doing great work. You're helping so many people. You're helping me and my family, which I'm eternally grateful for. Thanks so much for coming on the show.

    28. HH

      Thank you for having me again. It's always my pleasure. [upbeat music]

    29. RC

      If you enjoyed that conversation, then I think you are really going to enjoy this one.

    30. RC

      Genes only contribute to 20% of the aging process. 80% is within our control, so that's fantastic. And then what are the things that we know are in our control that influence the process, that influence that 80%?

Episode duration: 2:14:34

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