Why Everything You’ve Been Told About Food Is Wrong | Tim Spector

1. 0:00 – 6:45

   Why "Almost" Everything We're Told About Food Is Wrong

   1. TSTim Spector0:00

      The massive billion-dollar food companies that have been setting the, the agenda about research have, have managed to avoid any decent studies comparing junk foods against normal foods. And they've continued to fund all this work about low-calorie products, low-fat products, and kept these in the guidelines without ever talking about this other sort of element in the room. And they've had this vested interest in doing this, and that's why we're, we're deluded into make, having ridiculous TV programs about calorie counting, and, uh, the dangers of fats, and, and, and this obsession on our labels, which most people don't understand anyway, which detract, again, from the quality. [upbeat music]

   2. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee0:50

      I've definitely never had anyone come in saying that someone thought that they were my dad, so I think that's probably a good place to start.

   3. TSTim Spector0:58

      Yes. Genetics and, uh [laughs] ... Yeah, so the, the cab driver, uh, giving your address, uh, and getting closer said, "Oh, are you Rangan's dad then?"

   4. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:09

      [laughs]

   5. TSTim Spector1:09

      "Uh, you know, come to see him."

   6. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:10

      [laughs] Shut up.

   7. TSTim Spector1:11

      And, uh, yeah, so... Rangan's dad, I must, I'm his brother maybe.

   8. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:16

      Oh, yeah [laughs]

   9. TSTim Spector1:16

      You know. Can't be, look that old. But, um-

   10. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:20

       It's funny, in context, you did have a face mask on.

   11. TSTim Spector1:21

       I had a face mask on, yes. And-

   12. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:23

       And you've got a fabulous tan at the moment.

   13. TSTim Spector1:25

       I do have a, yes, a good, a good tan. And I've probably got some Asian genes as well, so my kids had, uh, these, uh, uh, s- Asian birthmarks that the, you know, they, they get from, from Genghis Khan or whatever it was.

   14. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:39

       Well, we'll get to genetics. Uh, the main reason for getting together today is you've written a fabulous book, Spoon Fed: Why Almost Everything We've Been Told About Food Is Wrong. And I mean, you know, we could talk about this book for d- for days basically. There's so much in it. But I think that subtitle's quite interesting, Why Almost Everything We've Been Told About Food Is Wrong. So what did you mean by that?

   15. TSTim Spector2:06

       Well, I had to slip the almost back in there, uh-

   16. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee2:09

       [laughs]

   17. TSTim Spector2:09

       ... from my agent, the publisher, who, uh, always like a, [laughs] an even punchier title-

   18. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee2:14

       [laughs]

   19. TSTim Spector2:14

       ... as you probably know.

   20. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee2:15

       I know full well. [laughs]

   21. TSTim Spector2:16

       [laughs] So it took me a few weeks to get almost back in there. Um, but, uh, yeah, so it, it turned out that, uh, the title came at the end of the book really. So once I'd finished it and I got my 23 myths, uh, things about food we got wrong, that we came up with this title. Uh, but then, um, and it, it did come across that so much we've been led to believe over the last few decades has really been manipulated by, uh, you know, poor science industry advertising, uh, and just general, you know, peer pressure. Um, and so I wanted to focus, highlight those things particularly. But, uh, at the same time, I didn't wanna s- throw out and sound like a complete nutter that says, uh, you know, "I'm the only one who knows the answers." Um, there's, you know, everyone in nutrition is, you know, is wrong. Of course not, but it, it is hopefully highlighting, uh, the fact that most people agree that eating more plants and fruits and vegetables is a good thing. Um, and that was, that's, that's g- core to most of the nutrition advice, and that's what people do agree on. But, um, m- what people don't really understand is even professors of nutrition don't actually agree on things that they, the public think they do agree on, and what we're told. It's what we're spoon fed, if you like. And we did a, uh, a s- a survey of 13 professors of nutrition, really, uh, academics who'd been in the field 20 years, in the US and UK, gave them 100 foods to rank, common foods. And, uh, we looked at their correlations. And basically you'd expect to see a really good correlation between these scores 'cause they, you know, these weren't wackos. These were establishment figures. Uh, albeit with some with strong views. And 50% of the foods they agreed on, 50% no agreement at all. And of course they agreed on things like olive oil and, um, plants, uh, eating fruits and veg. But all this huge area in the middle like dairy, meat, um, lean meat versus fatty meat, uh, diet drinks, uh, you know, butter v margarine, uh, no agreement really at all. And I think that's what I meant by the almost. Um, but I think people forget there is some common sense is out there, and I don't want to feel that I'm a total anarchist.

   22. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee4:59

       [laughs]

   23. TSTim Spector5:00

       Um, uh, because, you know, after all I a- I'm an a- academic, so, um, that's important to me to not feel that I'm just trying to blow the whole thing up. You know, there is some agreement, but there's massive disagreement, and yet all the guidelines, all the NHS websites, all the, uh, stuff, you know, whether it's My Food Plate or, um, whatever guidance, particularly in, in the countries like UK, US, Australia, all makes it out that we know the answers. And we're sticking to the status quo of whatever we've been told for the last 30 years 'cause no one really wants to admit a mistake.

   24. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee5:37

       Yeah.

   25. TSTim Spector5:38

       And I think that, that is sort of trying to sum it up, and I, uh, did it in a way that I, I thought was bite-sized. People get into these ones, have conversations about it, 'cause I want people to talk about these things 'cause I think that's really, that's the vital bit. We're not gonna s- necessarily see change from the top down. I think what I'm hoping is there'll be enough people from bottom up to start effecting a change, to start demanding, uh, that these things are taken notice of, and we can stop, stop the rot, stop passing on this misinformation to our kids.

   26. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee6:13

       Yeah. I think you've done a great job with that, Tim, and I, I really agree with you about this bottom-up approach because- We're seeing that at the moment, aren't we? We're seeing that. For all the, the, the cons of what happen on social media, there are many pros as well, and many people are being empowered, they're being informed. They're experimenting themselves and going, "Actually, I didn't know about this way of eating, but it's actually working really well for me." And I wanna delve into that a bit later on about the whole, uh, movement of personalized nutrition, which I think you're very much at the forefront of.

2. 6:45 – 13:47

   From Twin Research to the Gut Microbiome

   1. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee6:45

      But I'm super interested, you, you mentioned you're an academic. So why is it that an academic like you cares so much about food? What happened? Did you leave medical school like that, or did something happen along the way?

   2. TSTim Spector6:59

      Uh, definitely didn't leave medical school like that. Definitely didn't leave, uh, junior doctors like that. Um, and, you know, for a large part of my career, you know, believed, um, my consultant's advice that, um, you know, everyone who's gets fat is just lying and, uh, you know, they're, they're cheating on the biscuits. And, uh, if, if we eat less, you, you get slim. Um, [lip smack] so it's really only the last 10 years, I think I've, I've really got into nutrition seriously. I've done many different things in my, my career, but they've all been based around the last 25, 30 years around twins. And so that has been a platform that I set up where you study identical versus non-identical twins. You look at nature v nurture, and you got this one model that you can then apply to any common problem or disease or, uh, exposure. And so this is an amazing resource. It's the largest in the UK, one of the biggest in the world. You know, we've written 700 papers using these twins. And it's given me the freedom to actually not only look at 100 different diseases, but also different risk factors and start thinking about things in a much broader way than most people ever do. Um, totally multidisciplinary r- really, because everyone else I'm surrounded by in academia is very focused on a very small area of research. They can't see the big picture. And none of my medical colleagues were interested in nutrition because it was seen as the poor cousin. Um, very primitive, very, you know, basic ways of filling in questionnaires with pencil and paper. Um, it wasn't glamorous. It didn't have sexy genes. It really was very, very dull, and, uh, nothing was happening in it, and you couldn't get grants. So nobody really wanted to do it. Then really, it all, it all came out of this, my twin work, really, because I slowly transitioned from being really excited that identical twins were so similar and, you know, picked up a glass, uh, of beer with the same little finger sticking out or some weird traits like that, that as humans we all pick up on, to the fact that realizing, well, actually, identical twins usually die of different diseases. They, um, get different cancers. They, uh, you know, much more different in terms of health than people think. Although they look very similar, they look, um, you know, and their expressions and whatever. You-- As humans, we over, uh, exaggerate that because that's what we pick up on, the smile or the witty comment, the voice. But actually, the health stuff is really different. So why would that be? Why do you get identical clones who end up so different? So that's got me into this area called epigenetics, which is how you can switch your genes on and off. And for five years, I, I was looking at that, and there were some differences between twins in these signals that you can get from diet and you can get from the environment or pesticides or whatever it is. But it was pretty obvious that we didn't have the great tools to study it, and the effects were quite small. So I was looking for something else. And the other big thing that suddenly hit about, uh, 10, 11 years ago was the gut microbiome. Even in identical twins, they, their microbes were really different. And so suddenly I had a, a reason to explore that. And once I really, uh, went into the gut microbiome as this new organ that's really different, even in clones, and is shaped by our diet and our environment, suddenly that was a sort of aha moment that said, "Wow, if, if that's so important, then this is how we can really study nutrition." This is-- Everything starts to become explainable in a sort of modern era approach, as opposed to a 100-year-old approach of calories, fats, and proteins. Um, because it's down to the chemical levels, down to the interaction level, and you can suddenly start to measure it all and quantify it in a way you couldn't do before. So it was, it was a combination of these, these insights about the gut microbiome, plus it was the technology that you could suddenly measure gut microbes with genetic sequencing, which I was well-versed in from all my, my years in genetics. Um, and you could also measure other things in food, so much of the chemicals. Uh, you could break food down not into the three groups that we all know and hate, uh, [chuckles] but, um, into 26,000 different individual chemicals. And, uh, and you can do that with this, this whole approach of, uh, mass spectrophotometry. But it's basically just drilling down into the detail and in a way, seeing food and nutrition and your gut health in a completely different light to what we were able to do 10 years ago. And suddenly that transformed it into this, you know, l- you know, from going from a, a village fete type, uh, way of, uh, looking at cooking to this high molecular- Um, big data algorithms, uh, giant computing way of, of looking at things that we could suddenly crack the problem. And that really was that, that's what put it together for me, and that's also that introduced this whole idea of this pers- personalization, really came from the uniqueness of our gut microbes. No-- I don't think there's two people on the planet that have exactly the same, uh, gut microbiome.

   3. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee12:47

      Yeah.

   4. TSTim Spector12:48

      And, and yet, when we compare that to our DNA, um, you know, we are probably fourth cousins, uh, genetically. Um, we share l- over 99% of our DNA with each other, but you and I are not gonna share many of our microbes. Um, however much, uh, you know, we, uh, spent bond, uh, bonding in camps together or whatever. We, we'd be very, still remain very unique, which means our response to the environment, our response particularly to food is always gonna be unique. So that's what really excited me about this whole field, that we-- all these things were coming together just at the right time. Uh, and I was in this unique position because of having this twin cohort to really work out, well, how much of this is nature? How much is nurture? You know, we can start to do these big scale studies with these amazing, you know, 12,000 volunteers that, um, have been, you know, I've been working with for the last, uh, 25 years. Yeah.

3. 13:47 – 22:40

   A Health Scare and the Move to Self-Experimentation

   1. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee13:47

      It's incredible to hear the journey. How much has your personal health challenges in the past played into the direction your career has taken?

   2. TSTim Spector13:57

      Um, I think it's changed quite a lot. Uh, and-

   3. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee14:04

      For people who aren't familiar, perhaps you could sort of elaborate on, on what happened [chuckles] .

   4. TSTim Spector14:08

      Yeah, yeah. So, um, ar- around 10 years ago, I was doing some, uh, trekking up a mountain, doing some ski touring in Italy, uh, high altitude stuff, uh, 3,000 meters. And, uh, the last day of the, the holiday I wasn't feeling very well, and got to the top of the mountain, and then, uh, got a, a really... I felt a bit dizzy, and was nearly falling down all the way down. Got to the bottom and started-- I could see double. So I had double vision, and that lasted for three months and was very stressful. At the same time, my blood pressure shot up, um, from being completely normal to being hypertensive. And that was, it turned out that was a, a micro occlusion, like a mini stroke, but it was a wake-up call to me to, um, lose weight and then try and work out the best diet for myself. And that started my journey of really self-experimentation and, um, in-depth investigation into the whole field. 'Cause I didn't really have any great prejudices other than as a doctor, where we were told that fat is bad for you and that you should have, you know, mainly starchy vegetables and, you know, the classic, uh, and you should have margarine and not butter. Um-

   5. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee15:30

      Were you overweight at the time?

   6. TSTim Spector15:32

      Um, uh, slightly. I was about 84 kilos. Um, uh, but I've managed to lose 10 kilos. Um, so I'm now, you know, 74, 75 kilos. Um, I didn't feel, you know, until I started thinking about it, uh, uh, my weight had been creeping up by about one kilo a year, uh, for the last 10 years. Um, you know, hospital canteen, uh, lunches and things at conferences and, uh-

   7. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee15:59

      [laughs]

   8. TSTim Spector16:00

      ... uh, you know, orange juice here and there. But, uh, so that, that really was a turning point for me, and I think most people have that, that at some point in their lives. You know, you didn't worry about stretching until you had back pain at, you know, the age of 30. That was sort of when I start-- That was a trigger for me. So most people need to learn from their own experience. They need a slap in the face. It's very hard preventively to say, "If you don't do that, you'll get X." Well, uh, unfort- you know, it, it's-- I needed a wake-up call. Um, naturally a bit lazy. Thought I'd get away with it, as most people do. Um-

   9. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee16:36

      But it's interesting, Tim, if you look at the nutrition space within the medical profession, which as you well know, more and more of us are becoming passionate about this as a very much under-taught area, an underutilized area when we're, you know, looking at patients and trying to help them. It's interesting how many of the doctors and other healthcare professionals as well, who've gone down this route, have had some kind of personal experience, either to them or a family member, where maybe they were diagnosed. You know, I know many doctors who were diagnosed with type 2 diabetes, didn't really wanna take the medication. Thought, "Well, hold on, hold on a minute. Before, before I go on lifelong medication, is there something else I can do?" And with that self-experimentation, they then become very vocal advocates for, you know, lifestyle as a way of providing medicine.

   10. TSTim Spector17:26

       I think it does take a sh- a shakeup of that kind, uh, particularly in doctors. I think that's a, that's a good observation. Um, uh, you know, a- as, as a wake-up call, and it's either that, as you said, you know, a family member who suddenly gets really bad advice is the other way it happens. Their parents suddenly get diabetes or something, and they say, "Hang on a minute. What sort of crazy advice are they getting about, about that?" Um, but, uh, and I, and I was no different really, uh, except that I, um, got the wake-up call and, you know, then started doing this experimentation to improve my gut microbes. Uh, that was the first five years was really all about that. And then the last three years have been all about, uh, personalizing and realizing that, um, everybody's different, therefore, you know, even the advice I was perhaps giving before, uh, won't suit everybody, and that- We have this unique response to food, and then I started wearing all these, these gadgets-

   11. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee18:27

       Yeah

   12. TSTim Spector18:27

       ... these wearables, these, uh, gl- continuous glucose monitors and measuring everything I possibly could, you know, being one of the most investigated people probably on the planet for food, 'cause I was in this unique position. Um, and that moved me, in a way, f- further down this road, uh, for the last, um, three years as I was, uh, found out that I was, uh, pre-diabetic and that, you know, certain foods were pushing me over the, over the limit quite regularly. And so having just gone from being, you know, having a bit of hypertension and, uh, being overweight, uh, and this cardiac risk, suddenly I said, "Well, I've also got a potential glucose problem here." So that was really another-

   13. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee19:10

       Yeah

   14. TSTim Spector19:10

       ... insight that only someone in my position testing all this stuff would have. So-

   15. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee19:15

       Yes. I- incredible to have access to so much [laughs] testing on yourself. I'm sure many people listening or watching will be, "Wow, I wish I had that on myself." And, and we'll, we'll come to that. You know, Tim, you have this double vision. You're obviously, you're trying to get down a ski slope. That is scary, I'm sure, and worrying. And then presumably you saw a doctor of some sort to try and sort of provide some perspective [laughs] on what might be going on here. Were you offered conventional advice at that time? Did you try and lose weight and sort of get on top of your blood pressure and health using conventional methods that didn't work? Is that what also fed into this?

   16. TSTim Spector19:55

       Uh, I had... I went through the conventional medical things of scans and the cardiologist and the eye doctor. Um, and nobody, uh, suggested diet, uh, would be of any use except the, uh, my, a consultant in hypertension who said, "Of course you should, uh, always now give up salt." Um, which, uh, is, is about the only really, the only advice that, um, they, they tend to give. So it was very standard stuff. Um, and these people were experts in their field at m- teaching hospitals. Uh, but nobody, nobody said, "Go and experiment. Uh, try and do some different things." Um, it just wasn't on, on the card. Basically, you, you, you use drugs to control these things. Uh, you had special glasses to, for your, for the double vision. And yeah, and at the time, nobody did the sort of checks to see if I had pre-diabetes, for example-

   17. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee20:59

       Mm

   18. TSTim Spector20:59

       ... um, 'cause they didn't do those, those challenges. So, uh, that's why I, I said, "Well, you know, I, I can do a much better job myself, um, just by some self-experimentation." I think that really, uh, spelled it out to me how little even experts in this field do know about the, the general world of, of nutrition and about how we should be encouraging, um, patients really to, uh, to think more themselves about what they can do and to bring out-

   19. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee21:31

       Yeah

   20. TSTim Spector21:31

       ... all the things they probably know themselves, uh, 'cause they're worried that their doctor will-

   21. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee21:35

       Yeah

   22. TSTim Spector21:36

       ... say, "No, you can't do that. You've gotta have the low-fat margarine. You mustn't deviate from this course." You know, but, but so now I've, I've sort of gone the other way and I, you know, I want everyone to experiment with food and find-

   23. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee21:48

       Yeah

   24. TSTim Spector21:48

       ... out what works and not just accept that, you know... If, if I'd accepted what my colleagues had said, well, you know, I, I, I would never go to a restaurant, uh, because that would give me too much salt. Uh, and I'd never b- have a, a, an interesting meal ever again because, uh, life without salt is, is, is pretty horrendous. And, you know, it would only improve my, my blood pressure by one millimeter. Um, so that's-

   25. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee22:16

       Yeah

   26. TSTim Spector22:16

       ... it's just putting everything into context, and that's in a way why I w- I wanted to write this book, to start putting some of these bits of advice into a context for an individual rather than, you know, groups of people. Gr- the idea that there is this average person there who's gonna benefit from all these things, when actually the truth is, you know, we're all so different and, um-

   27. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee22:38

       Yeah

   28. TSTim Spector22:38

       ... we need to find our own way.

4. 22:40 – 29:49

   Diet Tribes, Dogma and Individuality

   1. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee22:40

      I, I love that. There is a line in your book where you say, "You're very unlikely to be average." Something to that effect, and it was very powerful because what I've seen time and time again is that different people respond to seemingly quite different diets. And this is why I sort of... I'm very much diet agnostic in the sense that I support minimally processed food, I support eating, in inverted commas, "real food" as much as you can, but I personally don't like to put myself in, in a camp anymore, or a belief system, or, or a religion around food because the truth is I've got patients who follow a whole food low carb diets. Some are doing e- excellently well. I've got some patients who are doing a whole food vegan diet superbly well. And so therefore it's like, well, I can't say that this is gonna work for you or not. And I kinda feel as a healthcare professional that my job is, yes, to give the best advice I can, but also to kind, trying to j- stay open-minded, trying to be agnostic in terms of which diet I subscribe to and go, "Actually, what would you like to do? What are your beliefs?" 'Cause I, I could have a particular opinion, and then my patient might come and go, "Look, I've got a moral problem or an ethical problem with eating animals." It's like, okay, well, if that is the case, I have to be able to give you advice [laughs] in the context of your beliefs. So I think this whole idea of, uh, you know, you, you also said that the science is now telling some of us what we already knew. I think that's really powerful because I think a lot of us kind of know that- Oh, the diet that my mate's on, I, I kinda tried that. It didn't work well for me. But your research, I think, has given that a lot of scientific validity now, which I think is very helpful for people.

   2. TSTim Spector24:32

      Yeah. Well, I think what you just said, what you just said about, um, uh, giving your patients the choice i- is very refreshing, but, uh, most people in the medical profession don't do that. And we're told there's one recipe, you know, it's not a menu. Um, and all the experts, and I, I've been told off for writing these things in newspapers. I got some sort of vitriolic, uh, correspondence when I was, uh, talking about the, the diabetic, uh, diets and, um, [lips smack] you know, going on these liquid, uh, milkshake diets to cure your diabetes, saying, "Well, listen, that's fine, but, you know, these, uh, high carb, low fat approaches may not be right for everybody. And, you know, let's also do the same thing, but perhaps with, uh, low carb, high fat, which seems to be successful." And, you know, people would attack you from both camps, um, saying, you know, "No, no, no, ours is the right way. Uh, you're wrong." And that's because there's this huge sort of cognitive dissonance that people just saying, "Well, I've been doing this for 10 years. This is my life. This is what I do." And the whole academic scenario keeps going round that. They get more grants to do that. They can't be seen to, you know, be talking like us, uh, to say, "Well, clearly, uh, if you look at the world, you know, there's a huge range of different diets in healthy places." These blue zones, they don't all eat the same thing. They don't make sense at all, other than in this idea that, you know, you find the, the food that suits you. Well, you know, there's a few certain rules like, yeah, not eat, uh, don't eat ready meals [chuckles] and, uh, junk food all the time. Um-

   3. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee26:16

      I think we'd be hard-pressed to find any camp around nutrition who would disagree with that. Is there anyone who would disagree with that? Actually, some would. Some would say it's all to do with calories, wouldn't they? And actually-

   4. TSTim Spector26:28

      Yes

   5. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee26:28

      ... it doesn't matter where they come from.

   6. TSTim Spector26:29

      Well, people in it from the food industry and those that they pay, and they have a lot of influencers, uh, you know, who, who, uh, go around saying this stuff, saying, "You shouldn't blame, uh, companies that, you know, have extra chemicals in their food to make it taste good, 'cause it's important that it's low fat and it's low, low... And it hasn't been proven to be harmful." So there i- there are people that do still project that in the same way that people were promoting, you know, low, low-tar cigarettes. Um, [chuckles] you know, it's not very different. You say, "You haven't proven they're bad for you, uh, because the, the studies haven't been done. Just because it's got chemicals in it, we shouldn't knock it." And in, in a way, it's the, the same people knocking the, um, uh, uh, pure food movement, the clean eating movement, sort of going the other way and say, "Well, let, let's not go overboard, and it's fine to eat lots of, lots of chemicals." Uh, so I think, but y- you won't find many, um, academics saying that. That, that's definitely true. But I think we do have to, um, make this distinction, and that's why I wanna keep coming back to it. There's, there's almost, almost everything, you know, vast amount of people do agree that eating plants, uh, is good and avoiding large amounts of regular ultra-processed food is bad. And outside that, I think, uh, you know, there is quite a lot of room for individuality and finding what works, not only in what you eat, but also how you eat. And I think that's, that's the other thing that's been coming out of our studies is, um, you know, it's not just what you got on your plate. It's, you know, whether you break it into s- into portions, what time of day, what you did the day before, how much sleep you got. You know, it's incredibly complex, this, this whole, this whole idea, and once you throw all those balls up in the air, uh, i- it's really interesting to see how, you know, the perfect way they could fall for some people and, uh, how others would do really badly, um, through that mix if they get it wrong just because of dogma. Just because that's the way everyone does it around here. That's the time everyone has their tea around here. That's the, you know, you gotta have your breakfast because, uh, uh, you know, that's the way everyone's done it for the last 50 years.

   7. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee28:55

      Yeah.

   8. TSTim Spector28:55

      Um, I just want, you know, people to question all this stuff and start saying what works for you.

   9. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee29:01

      Yeah.

   10. TSTim Spector29:01

       Because a lot of this, this dogma about we must do it this way, we must have, you know, it's like snacking. You know, why, uh, why do we suddenly start snacking about, uh, 30 years ago?

   11. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee29:13

       Yeah.

   12. TSTim Spector29:13

       And this idea of a healthy snack and, oh, it's high protein, low fat, healthy snack, free from gluten, you know? I mean, did we need it? Were we really gonna faint, um, if, if we didn't? No. And, you know, you only look around the world and see how, and, and I think we don't do that nearly enough, is, is make these comparisons with other countries that are much healthier than our o- our own to say, "You know what? It isn't normal to have six meal events in a day around the world." Um, doesn't suit, uh, most people.

5. 29:49 – 35:26

   How and When We Eat: Snacking and Metabolic Responses

   1. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee29:49

      I, I read this article in The Guardian a, a few years back. Um, I think, you know, there was some book out about the French, and I think it was something to do with why French kids don't misbehave or something, something like that. You know, there's a, there's a punchy, uh, kind of probably misleading headline. [chuckles]

   2. TSTim Spector30:10

      Why French, French wives are always skinny or something like that.

   3. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee30:13

      Yeah. So exactly. And, and, and actually, what was really interesting is that the one thing I do remember from the article was, I think they were just saying that actually in F- in France as a, as a culture- There's not much snacking, or certainly French kids, actually you eat what you eat at meal times because after that mealtime, when it's, when the doors close on mealtime, you ain't getting anything else until the next mealtime. And I think actually the French are ... There's something we can learn from the French, I think, here in, in Britain. But in terms of foods, you just mentioned, uh, and I very much agree with this, that it's not only what you eat, it's how you eat. It's also when you eat, right? All these things play a role, which I think your research is, is really helping to showcase. Um, but why, you know, the French for example, you know, they don't do a rushed meal typically like we do. We- they won't have their, you know, let's say they've still got their healthy lunch, let's say. They're probably not gonna be having that in front of their computer whilst answering their emails. And I know that to be the case, that it's still ... 'Cause I, I had a interview with a French journalist about 18 months ago, and I asked her, I said, "Hey, look, you know, we hear this about the French. Can you just tell me, is this still part of French culture?" She said, "Yeah, absolutely. The only place where this appears to be different now is in Parisian offices of international firms," this was pre-pandemic, uh, when she says that the sort of international culture of having food at your desk seems to be infiltrating. And I found that's interesting. So in terms of your research on personalized nutrition, I wonder what are some of these non what's on your meal, uh, components, what, what, what, what have, what has your research shown up? Is there any sort of insights you've got for us?

   4. TSTim Spector32:03

      Well, our basic plan, which we've been doing for the last three years, is to give thousands of people, um, identical meals and see their responses to them, and then start giving those meals at different times and see how that affects them. And, um, w- we haven't yet got into the details of snacking or not, other than that we know that if you snack, you will, uh, a couple of hours before a meal, your metabolic response to that meal is poorer than if you didn't snack.

   5. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee32:39

      Okay. Just say that again, 'cause I think that's really important. If you do snack before your meal, your metabolic response is poorer at the next meal.

   6. TSTim Spector32:47

      Yes. Yes.

   7. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee32:47

      Um, and just for people who are listening who don't understand that, what do you mean by metabolic response?

   8. TSTim Spector32:51

      So what we're measuring is these, uh, peaks in your, in your blood, um, uh, in, in three ways. One is your blood sugar level, which normally goes up about 30 minutes after you've eaten, and that is your blood sugar and your insulin level, um, get a little surge, and that's normal after you eat. Uh, and we also measure your lipid levels, so triglycerides, th- one of the commonest fats in, in blood, and they go up after a meal. And they, we look at those six hours after a meal. And at the same time you can measure something called inflammation, which is like the irritation in the, in the blood, uh, and you can measure those levels. So those three markers, we think that people who have food that gives them regular spikes of these things, uh, large spikes, so that they're lasting longer or the fat is hanging around for a long time before it goes back to normal, uh, long term will have more metabolic problems, gain weight, and have, uh, increased hunger, lower energy, and that's what we're showing. So what we're trying to do is to match what people, um, eat with these responses and how they eat with these responses, and we're finding that so many things influence the height of that response, even with the identical food. So the timing of the day, uh, and whether you had something like a snack just before it or you had a, for example, a, a, uh, a high carb, uh, breakfast before the lunch, uh, will in- interfere with that second meal.

   9. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee34:28

      Right.

   10. TSTim Spector34:28

       So it's all connected is what I'm saying. So this is why, uh, and it's not just the French, but the Italians, the Spanish, all the Mediterranean countries really don't snack, uh, at all like we do. They don't usually have a big breakfast. Many of them skip it. And they, but they would always have a, a decent sized lunch where they take time out, at least half an hour to eat it, and in the evening they would have, you know, and they don't eat in their cars, they don't eat in, in front of the telly. Uh, they sit down and have them, and they have more to eat, but they have less snacks. And, and I think this is probably where we've been going on. It's not just about calories, uh, it's about the way we're eating and how that's changed in the last 30 years. I mean, obviously the f- the quality of the food's also really important because it is so much better in those southern Mediterranean countries, uh, than what we're eating. But I think-

6. 35:26 – 42:05

   Ultra-Processed Food and Industry Influence

   1. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee35:26

      Better, better in what sense, Tim? Less processed, less sort of ultra-processed and highly processed foods? What, what ... When we say better, what do we mean by that?

   2. TSTim Spector35:34

      Yeah, no, sure, yeah. Very right to pull me up on the, on those terms-

   3. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee35:37

      No, I'm just [laughs]

   4. TSTim Spector35:38

      ... because, uh, you know, the whole point of what I'm writing about is that we shouldn't gauge quality of food by calories and fat level, uh, or even sugar level. It, it's about, uh, the natural, uh, products, things that resemble the actual plants they came from rather than some derivative, uh, put together as 20 chemicals. So people have different, um, definitions of what ultra-processed food is, but if it's 10 or more chemicals and you don't, none of them are the original ones, uh, you know, it, that, it's, it, it's not corn, it's the corn syrup or it's the, uh, the extract of something-

   5. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee36:19

      Yeah

   6. TSTim Spector36:19

      ... that's ultra-processed food that has nothing to do with the originals, is poor quality food. In the UK, uh, we, 50% of our meals are ultra-processed by those definitions. In the US it's 60%. And- In countries like, uh, Portugal in Europe, it's 10%.

   7. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee36:39

      Wow. There you go.

   8. TSTim Spector36:40

      And it's not because Portuguese are rich, uh, for those that don't know. It's just because they don't have a culture of eating this kind of, uh, cheap ready meal, uh, frozen foods that we've been overrun with. And it's no surprise that in Europe, you know, we are the fattest, and in the world, the US are the fattest. It's, it's a direct correlation.

   9. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee37:03

      Yeah, I mean, you could almost, just that stat there with in Portugal 10% of their food comes from ultra-processed food products.

   10. TSTim Spector37:10

       Mm.

   11. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee37:10

       For, uh, that in itself, Tim, if, if I think about that, that could almost cut right through all the dietary tribal wars [chuckles] right there in the sense that is it carbs v fat v protein that's the issue? [chuckles] Or actually is it simply that the food that you are eating, let's make it minimally processed. Let's actually make it more close to its natural state. You know, it, it, it's hard for me to draw any other conclusion [chuckles] as I get in certain instances you can play around with macronutrients and get a good outcome. I, I, I get that. I've done that before with patients. But, but by and large, I'm not sure if we're, we're going down the right road there.

   12. TSTim Spector37:54

       It's the, the massive, the billion-dollar food companies that have been setting the, the agenda about research have, have managed to avoid any decent studies comparing, uh, junk foods against normal foods. And they've continued to fund all this work about low-calorie products, low-fat products, and kept these in the guidelines without ever talking about this other sort of element in the room because it's not in their interest. Because every year they're selling us more of this stuff that gets relatively cheaper compared to the, um, na- more natural foods that h- you know, have a proper food matrix and don't just get, you know, instantly dissolved as soon as they hit your stomach.

   13. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee38:40

       Yeah.

   14. TSTim Spector38:40

       Um, and they've had this vested interest in doing this, and that's why we're, we're deluded into make, having ridiculous TV programs about calorie counting and, uh, the dangers of fats and, and, and this obsession on our labels, which most people don't understand anyway, which detract-

   15. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee39:03

       Yeah

   16. TSTim Spector39:03

       ... again from the quality. And only a few countries have got this, only a few countries. And, but, you know, there's some examples in the book, and I was quite... A few in South America like Chile have, ha- managed to take on the companies and the government and managed to get instead of a food label, they just have a black dot that says, "Ultra-processed. Avoid." And all the kids now understand that. And they took off the cartoon animals off the cereal packets, you know, in the same way we d- we did with smoking-

   17. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee39:35

       Yeah

   18. TSTim Spector39:35

       ... cigarette packets. It no longer had-- We used to have cowboys on them and glamorous women and various other things.

   19. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee39:41

       Yeah.

   20. TSTim Spector39:41

       It's, it, you know, it's not different. Um, it, it's the same way. But this is, you know, and, and it's all a smokescreen to cover up the fact that every year we're eating more and more, uh, ultra-processed junk food that has just got more and more chemicals to al- alter the mouth feel so it, it makes up for the lack of natural stuff, and it's, it's hurting our, it, by having it sort of, you, it doesn't lend itself to a good meal. And so it lends itself to this perpetually snacking, grazing, uh, world, which is really bad metabolically for us.

   21. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee40:18

       Yeah.

   22. TSTim Spector40:18

       And the one study that was done on, on this, um, has clearly shown that you, you get these two matched meals to these randomized group. It was done by the NIH, uh, just over a year ago. Um, and y- you know, the, there's a clear difference in appetite and going back for more. If you give people buffets of both, they liked both foods equally. Um, they were done to be highly appetizing. But the processed food made people, it didn't satisfy them. They, they kept going want, back for more. So they ended up eating 30% more.

   23. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee40:58

       Yeah. That was Kevin Hall's study, I think-

   24. TSTim Spector41:00

       Yes

   25. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee41:00

       ... wasn't it? Yeah. I mean, remarkable.

   26. TSTim Spector41:01

       But what was remarkable is just how few studies there are like that.

   27. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee41:05

       Yeah.

   28. TSTim Spector41:05

       And w- why? Um, you'd think, you know, this is, these are like drugs we take every day of our lives. If it was a medicine, um, every time there was a new, uh, processed food product, it would have to go through some testing. You know, and, and the pharmaceutical companies have to spend a billion dollars to get a new drug. Uh, these guys say, "Okay, it's fine." And if you complain, they say, "Well, you can't prove it's, um, bad for us, therefore it's fine." So they've reversed the whole argument.

   29. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee41:33

       They've reversed. Yeah, I know. I know.

   30. TSTim Spector41:35

       And you take that with, uh, you know, I, I have this pic- particularly about artificial sweeteners.
7. 42:05 – 50:00

   Artificial Sweeteners and Resetting Taste

   1. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee42:05

      But in "The Diet Myth," I think you spoke about artificial sweeteners, and I'm pretty sure you expressed a bit of concern about them. Uh, so what is your current view on artificial sweeteners?

   2. TSTim Spector42:18

      All the data suggests that when you do a clinical trial and you give kids or overweight adults, um, uh, either two cans of, of fizzy drinks with sugar or two cans of the diet equivalent Uh, and you do that for six months or, or so. You do not see any difference in weight or, uh, diabetes risk or any other metabolic parameters. So there's no clear benefit from swapping from someone from a sugar drink to, uh, a, a diet drink, except, uh, maybe for, if you- for your dentist, okay? So the dentists like it because definitely it, it, it's, uh, good for your teeth. Um, and so that, just that fact alone, think about it. In each, you know, the average can will have maybe 150 calories, so people have two a day at least. That's 300 calories less. Why are these, why are these kids and these adults not losing some weight? Now, it wouldn't be massive, but, you know, we're told that that would be about 15% of our, um, intakes, right?

   3. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee43:29

      Yeah.

   4. TSTim Spector43:29

      So if you believe the calories in, calories out, actually they should lose weight. They don't. So clearly, in my view, something else is happening, uh, metabolically to these, to these individuals. Either their brain is being reset by the sweetness chemicals, so it's at a neural level, or, uh, something is happening metabolically and you are getting some change in insulin in ways we still don't understand, and I've put myself with monitors and given myself sucralose, and I can see, uh, I, I do get a sugar peak, uh, and my insulin peaks strangely-

   5. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee44:05

      Wow

   6. TSTim Spector44:05

      ... with the sweetness, which I can't explain. Or more likely, it's affecting our gut microbes, and so they don't know how to deal with these chemicals which are all derived from things like petrol and, um, uh, paraffin, uh, very ultra c- things that we're never supposed to eat. And so they, they produce weird chemicals in response, and those chemicals then have a reaction on our body which, um, interferes with the metabolism and in a way either makes us put on some weight or, or predisposes to diabetes in the same way as the sugar. So, uh, we don't know the mechanisms yet. There may be differences between them. They definitely work in different ways, and some people might be okay with some and not with others because, you know, I admit everyone is, is unique. But I think the whole idea of, uh, reducing sugar by just adding, uh, unlimited amounts of these chemicals, which is, you know, one side effect of the, the sugar levy-

   7. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee45:05

      Yeah

   8. TSTim Spector45:06

      ... um, has to be thought through, and we should be weaning people off ultra-sweetened products which make them more likely, particularly kids, to, to seek sugar and avoid sour things, which may be good for them. Uh, and that's my major worry. So, um, you know, I'm looking forward to seeing whether stevia, for example, which would appear to be the more natural of these ones, does have any particular benefits. But I suspect that this whole sweetness thing, by artificially creating these, these sort of flavors that people crave, um, is gonna have some other knock-on effects down the line that we don't know about. So we should be treat- teaching kids and, you know, adults how to go back to enjoying things that, uh, like water or like teas and, um, uh-

   9. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee45:56

      Yeah

   10. TSTim Spector45:56

       ... herbal teas and things that have a bit of interest in it rather than this, this blunderbuss massive amounts of sugar-

   11. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee46:03

       Yeah

   12. TSTim Spector46:03

       ... uh, whether it's fake or real.

   13. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee46:05

       It's amazing, you know, my kids are sort of 10 and seven at the moment, and it's amazing how many of their friends don't drink water.

   14. TSTim Spector46:15

       They're allergic. [laughs]

   15. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee46:17

       No, but you know what? It's kind of, it, it's, it's, it's really sad actually-

   16. TSTim Spector46:23

       Mm-hmm

   17. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee46:23

       ... on a, on a, on a deep level because think of, if you think about it in, in terms of our evolutionary heritage, we could never have survived if we didn't drink water, right? You know, [laughs] 500 years ago, I don't think we had the choice to not drink water. Whereas now we have that choice, and I suspect it's because it's been conditioned out of them, uh, via society, via various choices that they've been given, um, because I just fundamentally cannot believe that a human being cannot drink water. But I, but just to be super compassionate to parents who are listening who might struggle with their own children, I get it. I get it can be tough, but actually it's very unnatural to not, to not drink water.

   18. TSTim Spector47:08

       No, I totally agree. But I think it's, as you said, part of conditioning and, uh, you know, I go into the water business in the book in a fair way and, you know, we've been conditioned that tap water is perhaps bad for us, and, uh, it tastes bad or, um, has m- metallic things in it, or there've been, you know, history of you go abroad and everyone said, "Well, don't, don't drink the water. You know, what are you gonna... It could be deadly." Uh, and that, that fueled this whole rise in, um, mineral waters and, uh, this con that basically, you know, Pepsi and, and Coca-Cola and Nestle take tap water and they, they just stick it through, uh, a processing plant and, um, rebottle it, uh, minus any taste and, uh, do that. But, uh, and then, then have to add some, uh, flavorings to it as they, they were doing with, um, for kids to add a twist of fake lime or, uh-

   19. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee48:10

       [laughs]

   20. TSTim Spector48:11

       ... orange to make it palatable.

   21. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee48:13

       Yeah.

   22. TSTim Spector48:13

       Uh, no, a- absolutely. I think we, really important we get kids' taste back, re- reset the thermostat away from the super sweetness that, uh, i- is the problem.

   23. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee48:24

       But, but-

   24. TSTim Spector48:24

       'Cause they, they can't then appreciate other foods because in a way everything's set so high-

   25. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee48:30

       Yeah

   26. TSTim Spector48:30

       ... uh, that they need it. And I-

   27. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee48:31

       I, I love that phrase, reset the thermostat. That's exactly what it is really. Um, I think, I can't remember how I put it in my, in my very first book. Uh, the, I, I wrote about You know, if a child, you know, 100 years ago, you know, the taste of a ripe peach on a sum- you know, a nice, in the peak of summer, that would be like a treat. It would be, "Man, this is so gorgeous and sweet." Whereas I think if you're used to having things like Haribos or, um, you know, every day, and that becomes your definition or your normal sweetness is a packet of sweets, then of course a peach no longer holds the magical allure that it used to.

   28. TSTim Spector49:13

       Yeah.

   29. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee49:13

       And, and I think it's just been this steady downgrading of our taste buds without-

   30. TSTim Spector49:18

       When did you ever last have a grape that was slightly tangy? You know?
8. 50:00 – 1:06:39

   Nutrition and Snacking Culture in Schools

   1. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee50:00

      I wa- I wanna keep just on the topic of children. Uh, when I was refreshing myself this morning, uh, with the book, uh, just as a, as sort of preparation for our conversation today, I don't think I'm giving away the book when I can read the last line.

   2. TSTim Spector50:17

      The line, the punchline.

   3. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee50:17

      Can, can I read the last line of the book? I think it's-

   4. TSTim Spector50:19

      Sure

   5. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee50:19

      ... for me, one of the most important lines in a-

   6. TSTim Spector50:21

      Yeah

   7. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee50:21

      ... in a book on foods. "Education is our main hope. We need to be teaching our children about real and fake foods with the same zeal that we teach them how to walk, read, and write." Tim, that really hit me when I, when I read it this morning. Um, you know, I, I've got two young kids. Until they went to school, I felt we had a pretty good handle on what they were eating, how much, when, you know, you know? Since going to school, particularly as they're getting older and older, obviously that, that control, and maybe all parents struggle with this-

   8. TSTim Spector51:00

      Mm

   9. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee51:00

      ... goes away from you somewhat. But what's interesting to me is what is normal in schools now. Okay, now appreciate your kids are a bit older than mine, so I don't know if that, that's changed. I, I wonder if you had this experience when you were, uh, a, a dad of young kids, although maybe you weren't tuned into nutrition [laughs] in the same way as you are now. But there's a snacking culture that's promoted, right? So morning break is snack time. You have to have a snack, right? It's, you know, it's just, it's part of the school timetable. There's morning snack time, afternoon snack time, which of course y- we were mentioning before how snacking is a reasonably modern invention, certainly to the degree that we have it in this country. Um, I know this is controversial, but I wonder if you could elaborate on some of your views on nutrition in schools and what we possibly should be doing.

   10. TSTim Spector51:54

       Well, everything you said is, um, absolutely true around this country, and probably, uh, very prevalent in places like Australia and the, and, and the US. And it is different from when I was at school. So we didn't have a, a mid-morning break for snacks. We were expected to last until lunch without fainting. And I think th- this, this whole idea, and it, it, it ki- all comes to this idea that, you know, you, you have to give kids regular food, otherwise their blood sugar level drops, and they're, uh, they can't concentrate and they run amok. And this, uh, this idea was, probably came about... It was a brilliant idea probably for some marketing, marketing executive, uh, selling s- selling, you know, chocolate biscuits or, or, you know, one of these big companies. And so they started it, and then probably did a lot of really bad, promoted a lot of bad studies in nutrition departments to show there was some correlation between, uh, kids who ran amok and, uh, them not getting a, a snack at, uh, uh, 10:30, right? They didn't get a chocolate fix or whatever. They didn't get their chocolate finger. And the, and they did a correlation, they ran amok. Well, the fact that little Johnny who ran amok, uh, w- was the sort of kid who would just forget to [laughs] to, to pick up his satchel or whatever, um, or, you know, had refused breakfast 'cause he was, you know, a bit hyper, um, it was irrelevant. Because that became ingrained in, in, uh, sort of pediatrics and in, uh, school education, that it was really important to keep maintaining sort of high sugar levels, uh, in school. And it, and this is where the problems absolutely start.

   11. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee53:49

       So wh- why, why I think this is so important, Tim, is because if kids get ingrained and conditioned with this from the age of three, four, five, six, seven, it is so hard to change that conditioning later. And, you know, we've not put this video out, I made it with, with Gareth last week, uh, about, you know, s- food in schools, and I personally believe in the current climate, where one in three kids in the UK start secondary school overweight and obese, and we know how much the environment influences our choices, you know, and some would argue are they even choices in a very obesogenic environment, I really struggle to, to make the case that schools should have vending machines anymore with fizzy drinks, and with chocolate bars, with crisps. I can't see the case for an ice cream van in the middle of a big secondary school anymore. But I feel sometimes as though saying that- It, for some reason, that's quite controversial to say that. It's almost as if, you know, when I was speaking to teachers about it, and some teachers say, some teachers agree, but they say, "Well, I'm, we're too scared of parents and what they'll say, so we don't change anything." And other teachers say, "Well, we want our children to have choice." But I think, I don't think people understand true choice. I don't think they understand what goes on, the bliss point of food, how they're manufactured to particularly, you know, spike that dopamine beautifully well. So, you know, I don't think people get it right.

   12. TSTim Spector55:22

       There's, there's no choice. If you put a big pile of chocolate biscuits in front of me now, I'd have a nibble, you know? [laughs]

   13. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee55:28

       Yeah.

   14. TSTim Spector55:28

       Because they're specially designed, uh, for that, and kids are so vulnerable. Um, but it, I agree, it's like a religion. And, and, and some peop- and many parents feel, you know, they've been educated the same way, they've been indoctrinated-

   15. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee55:44

       Yeah

   16. TSTim Spector55:44

       ... the same way, and they feel they would be really bad parents if they let that kid have a sugar dip or, you know, their energy level went down. Because such is this dogma that, uh, if you don't have some carbs, you know, y- your sugar level drops, your energy goes down. And, and what we've shown in our recent studies, in the PREDICT study, is complete opposite. You actually have a sugar dip after you have a carb load. So it is the complete opposite of what everyone thinks. And, uh, and so what they're doing is they are giving their kid... If you give your kid a, a chocolate biscuit or whatever it is at, at 10 o'clock, they're gonna have a sugar dip, and a third of them will have real problems of fatigue and concentration for the next hour. We've, we've s- done these studies in adults, not in children. But it, you know, it, there are, we see these sugar dippers. They don't know they're dipping 'cause we've got these monitors on them. They don't know what's happening. Uh, and they report their concentration levels, their fatigue levels. And it is not because they're not eating. It's, it's after they've had that, uh, sugar load. Uh, in our case it was muffins, but the point is exactly the same, that it is madness to think that, uh, this happens. And you only gotta look... I mean, I, I was in Tanzania, um, with this hunter-gatherer tribe, and I get asked this all the time, you know, oh, um, everyone needs breakfast, otherwise you can't concentrate. Um, they didn't have a word for breakfast, uh, because it didn't exist. Uh, no one was there, you know, up at dawn getting everything ready to, uh, otherwise they couldn't make it through the day. Nobody ate anything before about 10:00, 10:30, um, and usually just waited till lunch. But the, the point was that these people, you know, they would go hunting. They didn't need the equivalent of a chocolate biscuit to, uh, keep them going, otherwise they'd faint. Uh, evolutions, you know, wouldn't do that. You know? It, it's madness. And so we've actually been poisoning ourselves with the exact opposite. Uh, and but as you, as you can see from the reaction of teachers and parents, it is so ingrained, this idea, that, uh, you're a bad parent if you don't do this.

   17. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee58:07

       Yeah. And then what it wa- um, the other thing which happens, and I know many of my listeners will resonate with this bit in particular, that what it does is that when you're trying to educate and bring up your kids to know the value of food and know the value that it's for physical health, mental health, and mood, focus, concentration, et cetera, et cetera, if you subscribe to the view as idea that schools should be the model educationally, behaviorally, but also nutritionally, then you just start to create that friction where, oh, well, Mommy and Daddy are telling me one thing at home-

   18. TSTim Spector58:42

       Mm

   19. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee58:42

       ... but, like at school... You know, yesterday my son said, uh, you know, I said, "How, guys, how was it in, you know, school?" And everybody goes, "Yeah, you know what, you know what my friends had today? They had pizza and chips for lunch." Um, and we don't... You know, what's really tricky is that I'm not saying that that is something that no one should ever eat. Right? I get it. But I actually feel that schools are taking away some of the parental choice and responsibility because why not let parents decide if and when they wanna give their kids a bit of sugar or, uh, a cake or a dessert? I know what I'm saying is against the grain of what a lot of people now think, um, but, but I really do think schools need to, need to take this seriously.

   20. TSTim Spector59:27

       No, I think they need to take responsibility because what they are doing is, is for the rest of that kid's life, they're dictating what's normal.

   21. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee59:35

       Exactly.

   22. TSTim Spector59:36

       And, and, and so, yeah, you can have parents that are stricter or more relaxed, but y- your idea of authority and what's, you know, the way the rules are-

   23. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee59:45

       Yeah

   24. TSTim Spector59:45

       ... is that the rule is L- L- Little Johnny has, uh, you know, a carb break at, at 10 o'clock and another one at 3 o'clock, and he has, he can eat whatever he likes at, at lunch, and that is just plain wrong. And, you know, and it, it all... And it's, again, because of brainwashing. You know, you can't blame any of these two-

   25. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:00:08

       No, no

   26. TSTim Spector1:00:08

       ... 'cause there is no, there's no great expert that stands up there f- you know, uh, you know, in Eng- England we got Jamie Oliver who, who tried to do this and got a lot of, you know-

   27. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:00:18

       A lot of flak

   28. TSTim Spector1:00:18

       ... um, a lot of flak for trying to, to do this. But he didn't take on really the whole concept of how much you need to eat during the day. And, you know, this, this idea, I was brought up on, uh, this, that grazing was better than gorging. Uh, I talk about it in the book.

   29. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:00:35

       You do, yeah.

   30. TSTim Spector1:00:36

       And, uh, and it ended up this pathetic study of about, you know, 10 people, uh, done 30 years ago that, um, doesn't stand up to any scrutiny, and yet this one study, you know, has, had had ramifications because obviously this whole industry came around it and people felt You know what? It's really important to keep people, um, you know, topped up. And, uh, how are you gonna top up these kids? 'Cause otherwise they'll go crazy. And so suddenly it was a, a guilt thing. If you, if you took it away and then they did something, then the parents would blame them, and then that, then it-
9. 1:06:39 – 1:16:19

   Eating Fewer Meals and Rediscovering Fasting

   1. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:06:39

      So I wonder if we could just dive into that a little bit. So let's say you're gonna have your dinner at 6:00 PM, but at 4:30 PM you have, I don't know, a cake, piece of cake, you know, with a cup of tea. How might that impact the same meal that someone has at 6:00 PM if they've not had that cake?

   2. TSTim Spector1:07:03

      Well, it's gonna vary for different people-

   3. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:07:05

      Yeah

   4. TSTim Spector1:07:05

      ... because I've told you there's this, uh, unique response. But we're generally seeing a higher, uh, insulin and glucose peak, uh-

   5. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:07:16

      If they've snacked before

   6. TSTim Spector1:07:16

      ... if they've snacked before. So there'll be more stress on the body, uh, having snacked than if they hadn't eaten at all. Um, it will depend on the time of day and other things like this, 'cause again, i- it's not a simple, you know, black and white type relationship.

   7. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:07:33

      Sure.

   8. TSTim Spector1:07:33

      But, but everything that you eat, you do before you have whatever it is you're eating has a role in that response to that meal. And so, uh, for most people who have anything to eat before that time, uh, that will induce a sugar surge, will cause an even bigger one in the subsequent meal. Okay? So, so this is why once you start thinking of food in a different way as a chemical reaction in a, in your body, you realize that you don't want to have these big sugar peaks, these fat peaks after food. You want to, you know, you accept some of them, but you want to balance it for your body so that your body's not overreacting all the time and in a sort of stressed, inflamed state, which is what we think is happening, uh, for people on very bad diets. They're just constantly stressing the body. The insulin's being pumped up, inflammation levels go up, vessels start getting inflamed. Long-term stress equals weight gain and, you know, concentration problems and, uh, energy problems. So what, you know, getting a good night's sleep, having a good rest between meals, um, trying to work out whether you should be eating your food early in the morning or, uh, late at night, depending on your particular circadian rhythm. All these things are important, but absolutely we should be eating less meals. We should just be having two decent meals a day, um, rather than this standard six, which we are now, uh, being told it is still the right way to eat. Oh, and by the, you know, just happen to be this, these, these, uh, cheap snack foods you can, you can buy that parents are told is good for their children, you know, and it's just complete nonsense. Uh, we have to break that cycle, realize, break it down again, and start, you know, people experimenting and getting people used to, and kids particularly. You know, you imagine a child that's used to eating six or seven times a day, how do they cope with a fast? You know, the, the, you know, after two, two hours they're, they're conditioned to start looking for something else to eat. Uh, whereas the French kid, the Spanish kid, the Italian kid, they'll be patient. They'll wait, you know, and they'll wait for some decent food. And I think that's the other thing, it's this conditioning that's-

   9. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:09:57

      Yeah

   10. TSTim Spector1:09:57

       ... maybe just as bad as this metabolic, uh, problem. So-

   11. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:10:01

       Yeah, and I, I think the, the uncomfortable truth for, for many of us as parents [chuckles] is that our behavior can also condition our own kids, right? So what they-

   12. TSTim Spector1:10:10

       Mm-hmm

   13. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:10:10

       ... see us doing, and if we've, let's say, picked up habits that maybe ideally we would change but we haven't, yet our kids are around us and seeing it, they're also gonna pick up that as well, and I think, you know, I say that as a reminder to myself, just be careful [chuckles] how much you snack. You know, it's not, it's not like looking down on anyone. It's, it's purely understanding that we, we're all susceptible. Um-

   14. TSTim Spector1:10:35

       But these religious, you know, but, uh, I'm a big fan of, you know, fasting and, and virtually every religion has had fasting in there as a way of training, um, you know, as, as a sort of health thing and bonding the community together. But I think it's a great training for, for kids, uh, to be able to fast for a period of time.

   15. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:10:56

       To-

   16. TSTim Spector1:10:56

       To realize that you don't, you're not gonna die if you don't [chuckles] eat, you know, and you, you just wait until the next day or, uh, you know, when the sun goes down or whatever it is. Uh, and, and it's very sad that we, you know, it's slowly being lost and certainly in the Christian world it's virtually lost. Uh, and it's only the other, other religions that do it. But, uh, but bringing back, you know, some non-religious fast day-

   17. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:11:24

       Yeah

   18. TSTim Spector1:11:24

       ... um, for the whole family might be a, a fun thing that everyone should do, you know, that, um-

   19. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:11:29

       Well-

   20. TSTim Spector1:11:29

       With a big feast at the end to-

   21. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:11:31

       Yeah

   22. TSTim Spector1:11:31

       ... uh, to celebrate.

   23. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:11:32

       Yeah, you're right. This sort of feast famine type pattern that we've no doubt had in evolution. How can we bring that back? When you say you're a fan of fasting, um, what do you mean by fasting? Because if I don't clarify this, we'll get a ton of questions afterwards. What do you mean by fasting? Are you talking about intermittent fasting? Time-restricted eating? How many hours? You know, all those questions will come up, so I'd love to know what i- what does Professor Tim Spector think of fasting?

   24. TSTim Spector1:11:59

       Well, firstly, uh, everything in moderation. So I'm not, uh, someone who believes in multiple day fasting. Um, you know, I've never fasted for more than 24 hours and, uh, I'd [clears throat] wouldn't recommend it. Uh, but I, I do think just in general principle, the idea of going on a fast psychologically is really important so that you remember what hunger's really like and you remember that you can distract yourself from hunger, and that also you can, uh, paint a nice picture of, you know, having this enormous breakfast the next day, and amazingly, you can fall asleep and get round it. So until I started doing it, I, I didn't believe that was sort of possible. [chuckles]

   25. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:12:44

       Yeah.

   26. TSTim Spector1:12:45

       So I, I thought, "I'm too weak. I'm not gonna do that." But so the, just the principle of any, any fast, um, i- it's quite a just a thing to do for your own psychological wellbeing, I think, uh, to realize that we've, you know, we've got this, we've got these chemicals in our brain and they're telling us to do this and, but you can switch them off, you can divert them. You know, when you don't have to, it's fine, and most of us- We'll come across some medical thing that we have to fast.

   27. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:13:13

       Yeah.

   28. TSTim Spector1:13:13

       Uh, but you-- we're usually just distracted by that medical thing that we do it, and if you t- and that-that's interesting that, uh-

   29. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:13:20

       Yeah

   30. TSTim Spector1:13:20

       ... that's quite easy. Um, but when you do it voluntarily, it's somehow harder. So the principle is I, I like it. Um, I was a big fan of, uh, intermittent fasting when it first came out because it allowed you to, um, eat less food, but not in a restricted way. So you could have, you could pick what the food was you were gonna eat and just had only a quarter of the amount on that day. And I don't think it was shown to be better than any other diets, but you could stay on it for longer because you had the variety. You could change it all. It wasn't dull. It didn't, you know, didn't interfere with, uh, anything else. And, um-
10. 1:16:19 – 1:23:54

    Morning People, Evening People and Personal Experimentation

    1. TSTim Spector1:16:19

       And it could be that some people would benefit from a different timescale. Um, for some people it isn't enough, some people it might be too much. And so I would still advise everybody to give it a go, and particularly this idea of whether you're a morning person or an evening person. In our studies, um, when we gave identical muffins to people every, uh, three hours or every four hours across the day, uh, most people's, um, metabolic peaks, these, these, these stress peaks I was telling you about, got less, uh, during the day. Um, so yes, sorry, no, the other way. They, they, they went up during the day. So three out of four people got worse during the day with the same food. Um, one in four people actually, uh, got better, so, and I was one of them. So it, it suggests that, uh, for some people, eating later in the day would be better than eating early in the day. So some people are morning people, and like the dogma tells us, you metabolize better your carbohydrates in the morning. You break it down quicker, you get less of a sugar peak eating the identical food. And we compared lots of people doing this, but one in four people, it's the opposite.

    2. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:17:41

       Wow.

    3. TSTim Spector1:17:42

       So some people are better off not having a large breakfast. Um, or so either skipping breakfast and having, uh, a lunch and a, and a big evening meal like most people in the Mediterranean, uh, those people will do better. So again, it's all about self-experimentation. There isn't one-size-fits-all, and there's many complicated bits go into food.

    4. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:18:08

       Yeah.

    5. TSTim Spector1:18:09

       And it, it's necessary to maybe deconstruct it all without losing the, you know, the fun bits of eating.

    6. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:18:16

       Yeah.

    7. TSTim Spector1:18:17

       'Cause that, that, there is this huge social side that's really important, mustn't lose sight of. But let's not stop eating breakfast just because everyone says you have to eat breakfast. And they say, "Oh, Mommy, I'm not hungry." Well, you know, try it for a week without breakfast and see.

    8. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:18:32

       Yeah.

    9. TSTim Spector1:18:32

       You know, it's not gonna kill them. Um, a- and if it doesn't work out, you, you know, you change your mind. But generally, humans are pretty good at, if you listen to your body-

    10. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:18:42

        Yeah

    11. TSTim Spector1:18:42

        ... it will tell you. Most people are not starving when they wake up in the morning. You don't wake up at, uh, 7:30 saying, "Oh my God, you know, I've got to eat something," you know? And so that-- And some people, they don't get any feeling of hunger until, you know, maybe 11, 12 o'clock.

    12. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:18:59

        Yeah. I think the main thing for me is if, if I sort of... W- which what I always try and do is try and relay what you're telling me from the science and this kind of cutting edge science that you're involved with And I'm sort of trying to relay it to what I've seen with my own patients, going, "Well, how does that marry up with what I've seen?" It, it really fits so beautifully that first of all, everyone's different. Secondly, we gotta s- I think we've got to... It's about empowerment and responsibility in the sense that I think too m- too many of us are relying on some external source to tell us what is the right diet for us. You know, "Doctor, you tell me, what should I eat?" And I, and I think we can provide guidance, but I kinda feel the only way to really own it long term is for you to feel it and go, "Actually, you know what? I don't really care what anyone else is doing because when I have my breakfast at 10:00 AM," and let's say I eat until, I'd have a dinner at 7:00 PM, "actually, you know what? That seems to work for me." Yeah, I know my best mate has breakfast at 7:00 AM, and he seems to be thriving, but it, it's kind of just about... And I think there's something in society, Tim, there's something that has really changed over the last 50, 100 years. I, I just wonder actually, in some ways it's interesting, isn't it? Nutrition always used to be taught to us [laughs] by our parents or our grandparents and our local community. And as communities have become more dispersed and we've moved away from family, and of course many of us have emigrated to different countries and set up new homes and new lives, we're now almost looking for, you know, scientists and researchers and doctors to tell us how to eat. And again, I appreciate I'm a doctor [laughs] trying to encourage people to eat well. You, you're a doctor, you're a researcher, but do you know what I mean? Is there something... Is that not in some ways part of the problem?

    13. TSTim Spector1:20:56

        Yeah. We're, we're, we're m- it's the missing grandmother generation really, you know?

    14. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:21:00

        Yeah.

    15. TSTim Spector1:21:00

        Um, you know, that's this cultural void, particularly in the Anglo-Saxon world, uh, you know, since the Second World War, we just haven't had this, uh, this, these experts, uh, who told us what good food was. "This is good traditional food. I'll teach you how to make it for your kids. You know, this is what it looks like." Everyone knows how to make that dish, for example.

    16. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:21:24

        Yeah.

    17. TSTim Spector1:21:25

        And they know what the raw ingredients are. They can, you know, chop up the onions and, and do it all, and that is passed on. And that still exi- Southern Mediterranean has it, Northern Europe doesn't have it, but, you know, every single kid in, in South Korea knows how to make a kimchi. Um, and they eat it two or three times a day. And their, you know, their grandmother has their own special recipe, and they pride themselves on knowing their national dish-

    18. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:21:54

        Well, Tim-

    19. TSTim Spector1:21:55

        ... and being experts in it. And we have nothing, nothing at all.

    20. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:21:57

        Well, I, I sometimes feel that we're swimming against the tide here, you know, in terms of what populist opinion is. I mean, you, you said before, you, you mentioned something, you get attacked. You know, how do you feel individually actually as a, as a, as a very esteemed and respected doctor, professor, researcher, how does it feel for you individually when you get blasted on social media?

    21. TSTim Spector1:22:22

        Um, well, I realize that, A, I'm, I'm relatively protected because I'm, uh, a, a respected professor in a, in a, uh... And I do see a lot of the abuse that goes on to other people that's much more than I get. So I realize that I'm, uh, relatively free of this. Um, I got... It was quite har- I used to get quite upset about it. Um, now I think it's quite funny or I try and work out, you know, who they're working for, um, or what their particular angle is. And once you see that, you know, y- you realize, well, you know, it's just like religious fundamentalism. It's, um, they're never gonna be particularly happy. But I- I've, I've been fairly lucky that I'd, I'd, I'm quite hard to attack, uh, because I do do the research and they can't say, "Well, they've done the research and it disproves me or whatever." It's a theory.

    22. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:23:20

        Yeah.

    23. TSTim Spector1:23:20

        Um, but certain areas like, uh, you know, I know I'll never win, um, and vitamins is one of them. Um, uh, there are some areas that are really like fundamental religious beliefs that people feel very, very strongly about, and I don't think it matters what science, uh-

    24. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:23:39

        Yeah

    25. TSTim Spector1:23:39

        ... you, I produced, uh, those people in their lifetimes will never, ever drop, uh, that particular belief.

    26. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:23:47

        Yeah.

    27. TSTim Spector1:23:47

        And, um-

    28. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:23:48

        And that's it. It's a belief, right? That's, and that's often what we're, we're up against.

11. 1:23:54 – 1:37:48

    What Spector Changed After Testing Himself

    1. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:23:54

       Tim, you know, in the, the personalized nutrition, as someone who's had probably more, uh, [laughs] needles and tests done on them than possibly anyone on the planet maybe, what have you changed in the way you eat since doing some of this testing?

    2. TSTim Spector1:24:13

       Well, 10 years ago, I started changing really towards my gut. Um, and I, I had this, without a huge amount of evidence, just the idea that I wanted to feed my gut microbes was a pretty good principle to go on. And the last three years I've been doing these more precision tests on myself with, with monitors, with measuring my fat levels, et cetera, et cetera. And that's taught me about something, uh, I got, I realized I got some things wrong. Um, and it's, it's changed my breakfast, for example, and, um, I now have really pretty much ditched the, the carb breakfast and will, if I... I try and skip breakfast a couple of times a week. Although I like breakfast, I, I feel slightly better without it. I was, uh, conflicted [laughs]

    3. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:25:02

       [laughs]

    4. TSTim Spector1:25:03

       'Cause I think I like a really good breakfast, but if you're rushing it and you, you know, you, you don't need it, um, I try and skip it. But, you know, I will go for, uh, the full-fat yogurt- The kefir, I have fermented food every day now. I really, if I don't, I feel sort of, uh, I'm lacking something or I'm, I feel guilty like a parent, you know, letting down their poor microbes who've got, are starving. My babies, they've got nothing to eat. Um, so I ha- I have a, a fat, I have fat and nuts, uh, and maybe a small amount of fruit in the morning. Um, and by lunchtime I've sort of said, "I'm either gonna have a proper lunch or I'm not gonna have one."

    5. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:25:45

       Right.

    6. TSTim Spector1:25:47

       And I, I feel if I'm working really hard, uh, I, I don't often feel, feel hungry enough that I absolutely have to stop and have lunch. Um, and it's probably not good for me to carry on working, I must say, so I, I... But on the times I do, I do have a proper break and then have a proper lunch. Otherwise, I will just have s- some nuts and, uh, an apple. And I found that by cutting out bread at lunch times, I didn't get the sugar dips and spikes that I was, was getting, uh, when I had my hospital, you know, tuna and sweet corn sandwich, uh-

    7. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:26:23

       Yeah

    8. TSTim Spector1:26:23

       ... that, [laughs] uh, was always seemed to be the same, and you get into a rut about having that. But when you see that effect on your blood sugar, um, it, it really puts you off. Um, and so, and in the evening, um, you know, I really have whatever I like, uh, that, that's good, and I, I don't really hold back. So I think the, the sugar monitor has really helped. Um-

    9. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:26:48

       What did you have? Did you have one of these continuous monitors-

    10. TSTim Spector1:26:51

        Mm

    11. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:26:51

        ... which would sort of feed, like, Bluetooth to your phone sort of-

    12. TSTim Spector1:26:54

        Yes

    13. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:26:54

        ... what was going on?

    14. TSTim Spector1:26:55

        Yes.

    15. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:26:55

        So you could really see in real time. So what, what sort of time would you have your evening meal now?

    16. TSTim Spector1:27:01

        Uh, it depends which country I'm in. Um, obviously, uh, so in Spain you can't really eat before nine o'clock in the evening.

    17. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:27:08

        [laughs]

    18. TSTim Spector1:27:09

        Uh, when, you know, a lot of people are going to bed. But they don't, you know, like I said, they, they don't seem to have problems with it, 'cause they don't eat much in the morning. So it's all about, not about much the time you eat, it's perhaps when you go to sleep, and then when you have your next meal. So it's the spacing out of the meals is important. Um, so I, yeah, I, what I try and do is at least twice a week, um, have a 14-hour fast until the next day.

    19. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:27:37

        Yeah.

    20. TSTim Spector1:27:37

        And I do feel better on that, and I, I've, I've discovered that. And I also try and exercise, whether it's swimming or going for a run or cycling, um, uh, you know, not immediately after, um, I try to exercise first before, before eating, and that seems to suit me better as well.

    21. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:27:58

        And it's interesting you've seen this in real time. So one, one thing I'm super interested in, because there's quite a bit of research out there, and again, these are all averages, that people saying eating half, e- eating the bulk of your calories in the first half of the day seems to have a better, uh, impact on, you know, sort of weight than actually if you have the, the bulk of your calories in the second half of the day. Now, of course these are just averages, and I think, to be clear, I don't think they were saying it has to be a breakfast. It could even be a, you know, breakfast is what? Meal one, right? So [laughs] meal one can be at any time. I think even if it was at 10:00, 10:30, and people were eating most of their food by 4:00, 4:30, I've seen quite a few, I think at least three trials, and one of them was a Spanish one actually suggesting that actually there's a positive impact. Now, I get that's not the case for everyone.

    22. TSTim Spector1:28:50

        And it's not b- not the case for people who are older as well. We've, we showed in our studies that there's an age effect.

    23. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:28:55

        Right.

    24. TSTim Spector1:28:55

        So all these studies generally done on students in nutrition departments, right?

    25. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:28:59

        Right.

    26. TSTim Spector1:28:59

        So they're generally in their 20s. Uh, but increasingly, as you, as you get older, these patterns shift and these circadian patterns, this, this morning predominance l- is, gets lost. And so it's, uh, much weaker when you, when you get over 50.

    27. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:29:15

        Is it really?

    28. TSTim Spector1:29:16

        Yeah.

    29. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:29:16

        That's super interesting.

    30. TSTim Spector1:29:17

        Yeah.
12. 1:37:48 – 1:42:48

    Fish, Omega-3s and Overhyped Foods

    1. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:37:48

       I think one of the, the myths was that fish is always good for you, and I quite liked that chapter. Um, I wonder if you've got any insights on fish for people, 'cause there is a, there is a feeling out there, isn't there, that fish is like a wonder food. Uh, what, what, what's your opinion on fish?

    2. TSTim Spector1:38:05

       Well, I was a big fan of fish. Uh, and I'd been trying to force my son to eat fish all of his life, and then give him fish capsules, and, uh, which I only found years later. It, it had stuck onto the bottom of the, uh, in a drawer in the, in the kitchen to rot, uh, very carefully. [laughs] Um, and it, it turns out that a, a omega-3 fish oils don't pass muster when it comes to randomized trials, so they don't... So the fish oil extract, which everyone thought was the important thing of fish, doesn't, uh, reduce heart disease, um, which is a shock to many people. Um, and fish itself, you know, it's another meat. People forget that fish is meat. It's just, uh, floating around in the water. Um, and it's been given magical properties, uh, through maybe these blue zone areas and, uh, the Japanese eating fish, although they ate lots of other things. But a lot of the people who were centenarians never ate any fish in Sardinia or in Greece. They just ate masses of, uh, goat and other things, uh, greasy other, uh, animals. And the data really is pretty modest in terms of the, the benefits of fish. Uh, average trials show, you know, 5 to 8% reduction in mortality, which given observational studies is, is not significant. And increasingly, fish is farmed, so majority of the fish we eat in the world now comes from a farm, not swimming around naturally. And so it's full of chemicals, it's full of often pesticides, antibiotics, full of microplastics now.

    3. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:39:47

       Yeah.

    4. TSTim Spector1:39:47

       Um, and if we did what we were told to, is all have two to three portions of fish a day, uh, fish would very quickly go extinct, or we'd be having to produce so much grain and soya to feed the fish farms, uh, that they, you know, we'd also run out of produce. So, um, you know, I used to call myself pescatarian. Um, you know, I love fish, but it's massively overhyped, and I think we just need to stop the bullshit and, and realize that, um, have it as a treat, get good quality stuff. But a lot of the fish we're eating now is either fake or very poor quality farm stuff that's ruining the environment. And so I think that's the, the sort of balancing message here.

    5. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:40:33

       Yeah.

    6. TSTim Spector1:40:34

       And that the idea of these miracle foods is rubbish, and it's just, that's a really good example of a overhyped food that, uh, you know, has no real basis, um, other than the fact we haven't found anything wrong with it at the moment, apart from, you know, mercury and, uh, and eating lots of plastic.

    7. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:40:56

       I mean, what about people who would say that fatty fish, like let's say it's not farmed, like wild salmon, uh, for example, contains, you know, high levels of omega-3 which we know are helpful for brain development and function. I mean, what would you say to people who, who would sort of, um, you know, who would sort of pose that query?

    8. TSTim Spector1:41:18

       I'd say absolutely go for high qual- occasional high quality, uh, fish when you can have it. Um, but don't reduce it to a few chemicals. Uh, something like fish has hundreds of different chemicals in it, uh, and vitamins and nutrients, but we can't just take one thing from it and say, "That's really important. That's why I'm having it."

    9. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:41:41

       Yeah.

    10. TSTim Spector1:41:41

        Um, yeah, in Scandinavia it has vitamin D, so it helps some people with vitamin D def- deficiency through the, through the winter. But it doesn't mean it's a miracle food.

    11. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:41:52

        Yeah.

    12. TSTim Spector1:41:52

        It doesn't mean that we should, you know, religiously bend over backwards like we have for every other spirulina or every other fad, uh, that comes along, you know, whether it's chia seeds or super berries or-

    13. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:42:07

        Yeah

    14. TSTim Spector1:42:07

        ... whatever it is. Um, it- it should be part of this whole balanced idea of food. And I'm, I'm obviously saying, yeah, do eat fish, but do it in a way that's environmentally, uh, aware. Go for the high quality, not the cheap, uh, fake stuff-

    15. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:42:23

        Yeah

    16. TSTim Spector1:42:23

        ... that's being produced in farms that's destroying a lot of the world. Uh, and don't believe all the hype, and that's just a, a really good example of, of, um, how, you know, we've s- said that red meat is bad, fish is really good. And of course, it, the devil's in the detail. High quality bits of both in small amounts, uh, I believe are absolutely fine.

13. 1:42:48 – 1:50:50

    Diversity, 30 Plants a Week and the Carnivore Question

    1. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:42:48

       It, it really strikes me that what you're advocating, using the [laughs] very latest science, is actually a back to basics approach. It's kind of saying, "Eat food that's been around, that's kind of been around for a long time, that's kind of natural food, that's as close to nature as possible. Play around with it. Figure out which ones work best for you. I'm gonna eat more of that." You know, I don't, I don't mean to reduce down [laughs] all the, the, the incredible work you're doing, but, but actually I think that's a really empowering message. I mean, would you agree with that?

    2. TSTim Spector1:43:24

       Yeah, with a caveat that I think I, what I believe in is diversity and range of foods.

    3. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:43:30

       Yeah.

    4. TSTim Spector1:43:30

       So one of the reasons I don't like people saying fish is a wonder food is that some people have sort of fish twice a day, and means they don't get many of the other stuff.

    5. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:43:41

       Yeah.

    6. TSTim Spector1:43:41

       Because they're like the people who like carnivore diets, you know, fill their plates with, with meat. Uh, there's no space for anything else. Or the obsessional, uh, vegan who just has, uh, three types of kale. Um- Any- anyone who, who, who tries to reduce things down to a few super foods is denying themselves the diversity of plants that is really at the core of what I think is good advice, that we need to be having a much bigger range of foods, uh, both for taste, texture, the planet, um, uh, but also for our gut microbes. Because there's this key formula, which I, I do talk about in the book, that, you know, to get your maximum diversity of gut microbes, which is, gives you the greatest health for your immune system, and your brain, and all the chemicals they can produce, you should be having around 30 species of plant a week. And so as long as you stick to that, that can be back to basics, but keep it diverse. Do not get, uh, you know, diverted down some narrow tunnel of propaganda or religious fanaticism about a particular range of foods or this is super this or super that, or I'm only going for these B vitamins, or I'm only doing this. This reductionist nonsense is ... The new technology is making mockery of that. You know, we're, we're incredibly complicated, uh, chemical factories. Our, our microbes are chemical factories. You know, we got 26-- we got 20,000 genes, 26,000 different chemicals in food. We- we're producing, you know, we have thousands of species producing, we'd have thousands of genes, and it, all of these are interacting. And so all our knowledge so far has been so reductionist, picking one vitamin, one nutrient, one of this, and everyone thinks they're an expert 'cause, oh, do you realize that, you know, how much phosphate is, is in a carrot?

    7. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:45:48

       [laughs]

    8. TSTim Spector1:45:48

       And, you know, and people often catching me out 'cause I, I've got no clue about, you know, 'cause I, I, I've got no interest in that 'cause I, I'm interested in the fact that, you know, a carrot has 600 different chemicals.

    9. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:46:02

       Yeah.

    10. TSTim Spector1:46:03

        And I, we don't know yet.

    11. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:46:05

        Half of it.

    12. TSTim Spector1:46:05

        Half of it.

    13. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:46:05

        Even probably more than half of it, yeah.

    14. TSTim Spector1:46:07

        We do know that if we just took one of them and put it into a vitamin, uh, made that in a factory in China and said, "This is, you know, carrot vitamin," uh, I could make a lot of money on it, but it wouldn't be the same as eating carrots.

    15. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:46:19

        Yeah. Now, I, I, I really do like so much of the approach, Tim, and it's, it's, it's wh- it's ... I've gotta be honest, it's, uh, you talk about in food, it's one of my frustrations in medicine actually, that I think we have become super, super reductionist in how we look at things, even to the point of this is a gut problem, this is a chest problem, this is a heart problem. And I get it, right? And I understand that there is merit in that. But actually you sort of said something at the start of the conversation that a lot of your colleagues actually are, are stuck studying one area, and you have almost this kind of super generalist approach where I ... One thing I've noticed is that you, you c- you've pivoted quite a few times in your career with that sort of underlying theme of what you stand for. You know, you started with the twins and genetics, but you've, you managed to pivot and apply those principles to lots of different areas, which I find really, really fascinating. Uh, you mentioned, Tim, the carnivore diet there, and, and I just wanna spend a couple of minutes on it because it is something that is taking off hugely. Whe- where do you come down on it in the sense that, let's say an individual patient, let's say it was one of your patients who was struggling with pain and all kinds of symptoms, and they, you know, found someone on Twitter who was advocating it, and they then go away and start doing it, and a lot of their pain and symptoms go away, which is seemingly what is happening. What would you say to them based upon the research you've done, what you're seeing in your trials, what you know about the gut microbiome? [laughs] Because for that individual, they're experiencing a benefit. So what should they do with that in view of what the research shows?

    16. TSTim Spector1:48:09

        Well, I think they should, um-

    17. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:48:12

        It's a tricky question, I know

    18. TSTim Spector1:48:13

        ... No, it is. But it, but it's a good question 'cause I mean, I, I have it as well, and, uh, a lot of people do come to me and say, "Listen, you know, I've read your book, but I, I, but, you know, I do very well on this."

    19. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:48:21

        Yeah. [laughs]

    20. TSTim Spector1:48:22

        [laughs] You know, so shut up, you know? Um, uh, and I can't argue with that 'cause, you know, th- they know best what they feel like. Uh, all I say is that any diet that restricts you, um, I think is likely to cause long-term problems. So by people who've gone, you know, whether it's, uh, high fat or, uh, high meat, uh, uh, means they are excluding other stuff. And some of that stuff they might have got rid of might've been very bad for them, you know, lots of starchy carbs and things like this that didn't agree with them. All I would say is, uh, long term, if you deprive your, your gut of fiber, all the studies show, and, you know, one of the experiments was on my son who, uh, took McDonald's only for 10 days and took three years to recover, um-

    21. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:49:17

        You're, you're a proper scientist. Do you know what I mean?

    22. TSTim Spector1:49:18

        [laughs]

    23. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:49:18

        You can't, can't get the funding, just put your son on a, on the McDonald's diet.

    24. TSTim Spector1:49:22

        Exactly. Everyone should use their children.

    25. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:49:23

        [laughs]

    26. TSTim Spector1:49:23

        I think that's the, that's the, that's the message here. Um, but no, uh, so by all means, carry on doing what makes you feel good, but try and introduce some plants-

    27. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:49:34

        Yeah

    28. TSTim Spector1:49:34

        ... that aren't likely to mess up your blood sugar, that keep the, you know- If it is the 70% fat that, you know, the keto diet thing, I'm, I, you know, I absolutely do believe it works for some people. But I do think there has to be that short-term balance of, uh, improving those symptoms with a long-term one to say, "Well, you don't wanna be messing up your gut microbes so you've got no immunity later on." You know, once you've got y- over your pain and your initial problem, you need to be, uh... And it, these can be just by eating lots of seeds, it can be eating a lot of herbs, you know, it can be eating nuts. You know, it doesn't have to be restrictive. So if people just keep in this mind that, "Okay, I can do these things, but I must try and maintain diversity."

    29. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:50:18

        Yeah.

    30. TSTim Spector1:50:18

        You know, what other ways can I feed my gut microbes? Then I'm very happy for people to do their own thing.
14. 1:50:50 – 1:57:47

    Stress, Future Research and Practical Takeaways

    1. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:50:50

       Yeah, I, I think that's a really sensible approach, one that I, that I very much agree with. And, and I sort of, I feel also that it's not just food, actually. So let's say someone is crippled with pain and then symptoms, and that's how they go carnivore, and that pain gets, uh, dramatically better. Well, also there's a knock-on effect in terms of how they feel about themselves, their life, their stress levels. I've seen over and over again that persistently high stress levels can absolutely impact, um, the way people feel after certain foods. You know, I've, I've, I've seen patients who actually thought they were intolerant to a food, and actually, what it appeared is that they were [chuckles] intolerant to actually eating in a stressed out state, like not switching off. And now, I, I'd be interested, as your research, uh, continues, whether there'll be any work done on actually, you know, stress levels whilst eating, how that impacts blood sugar response, how that impacts inflammation, 'cause I would, I would imagine it will have a response, but I, I don't have the data, uh, to show. So, so do let me know if you, if you study that [chuckles] at some point.

    2. TSTim Spector1:51:53

       Well, yes. It's adding the stress-o-meter to the, uh, to the recordings. But, uh, we s- you know, in a way, I think we are asking people about, um, uh, general contentment, how they're feeling at the time, and they're, as they're logging on their foods.

    3. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:52:09

       Yeah.

    4. TSTim Spector1:52:09

       And so we do get an idea of, uh, their well-being at various times in the day. So, uh, as well as sleep and exercise and, uh, fatigue and these level, they're all interrelated. So I think we are gonna start asking, uh, quantitative things about stress and, and see how that fits in. So I think, but you do need big numbers to do that, and that's-

    5. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:52:34

       Yeah.

    6. TSTim Spector1:52:35

       But we're now up to about, we've done about 3, 4,000 people now, uh, in great detail. And hopefully with this commercial stage, we should be able to get to 10, 100,000 people fairly quickly, and then we can answer these-

    7. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:52:49

       Yeah

    8. TSTim Spector1:52:49

       ... more subtle questions.

    9. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:52:51

       Wow.

    10. TSTim Spector1:52:51

        Um, uh, and, you know, yeah. And so there's really no limit, um, if you can keep getting enough people to do these tests-

    11. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:52:59

        Yeah

    12. TSTim Spector1:52:59

        ... to work out what's really going on, and we're, realize how complex we all are.

    13. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:53:03

        Yeah. Tim, look, I could go on for hours. There's so much I wanna talk to you about that we've not done yet. Um, but I think we should close off this conversation. I think it's been a very different one to our first one, back on episode one. [chuckles]

    14. TSTim Spector1:53:18

        Yeah.

    15. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:53:18

        Uh, you know, all, all the way back. Uh, I would love to encourage people to pick up your book, Spoon Fed: Why Almost Everything We've Been Told About Food Is Wrong. I think for anyone who's got even the remotest interest in this area, I think they'll find it super enjoyable to read, but also illuminating. Um, to sort of finish this off, Tim, I don't know if I used to ask this on episode one or not. [laughs] I'll have to go back. I'm not sure I could bear to listen to myself on episode one. But one thing I tend to ask people at the end is I say, well, this podcast is called Feel Better Live More. When we feel better in ourselves, we get more out of our life. And in view of everything you've done with personalized nutrition in this book, but also in, uh, The Diet Myth before that, I'd love you to think about some really practical tips that people can think about now at the end of our conversation. They can think about applying them into their own life immediately to start improving the way that they feel.

    16. TSTim Spector1:54:22

        First thing is to realize that everyone's unique. Okay? So once you realize that, um, you can explain a lot of the way you, you interact with health and food and exercise and your environment. And you sh- be free to, to self-experiment, and I want everyone to get out there and realize the amazing amounts of good, interesting foods are out there, and that I don't want people to read this book and get worried about, uh, themselves and, uh, the food environment and chemicals and whatever. It's really important that people remain fascinated about food and enjoy it, because it's, it's incredibly powerful bonding human experience, eating. So I want people to experiment. Try some new dishes you've never tried before. Um, try going for a week without meat, or if you, uh, try, uh, only eating vegetables, or try skipping breakfast. Try doing things in a different way. So exercising, uh, after you've had your meal rather than before it. Um, try mixing everything up, really. And, uh, the important thing to realize is that if you can, um, start to think of Everything you put into your body is important, um, not just for the pleasure it gives you immediately, your metabolic responses, but also, uh, you're feeding your aquarium, if you like, or your, your tank of gut microbes. Uh, and they can produce chemicals to make you feel happy and relaxed. And try and find that, that right balance. And it can take all of your life to find that, but, um, if you can do it in a way that's fun and enjoyable, then, uh, that's, that's the most important thing. So people shouldn't be stressed out about this. They should really take it as, as a positive challenge to try and improve themselves by, uh, understanding more about food and teaching everyone else about it. And I think we- we've all got so much to learn, and it's such an exciting area at the moment that I really want everyone to be passionately involved and everyone to be a citizen scientist.

    17. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:56:35

        Yeah. Love it. And of course, you'd encourage people to aim for that sort of 30 plants a week as well, I'm pretty sure.

    18. TSTim Spector1:56:42

        30 plants a week, diversity, uh, regular fermented foods, um, and, you know, avoid ultra-processed foods whenever you c- whenever you can. The occasional binge is fine, but, uh, just make sure it's not regular. And, um, y- and if you eat real good foods, you shouldn't need vitamins or, or supplements. That's the other really important message. Uh, and, you know, ev- as you're ... And just, uh, you know, realize that whatever you do, it's gonna be unique. Uh, but just make it fun.

    19. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:57:16

        Yeah. Tim, I've really enjoyed our conversation. So thank you for making the journey here, and I look forward to round three at some point in the future.

    20. TSTim Spector1:57:25

        Been my pleasure. [upbeat music]

    21. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:57:28

        Press Subscribe to get more inspiration and ideas on how to feel better so you can get more out of life. And if you have a moment, why not check out this conversation that I've picked out as a perfect follow-up? Remember, lifestyle change is always worth it, because when you feel better, you live more.

Episode duration: 1:57:48