Why Relationships Now Feel Harder Than Ever | Esther Perel

1. 0:00 – 0:42

   Introduction

   1. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee0:00

      What I thought we'd do to start off, Esther-

   2. EPEsther Perel0:02

      Yeah

   3. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee0:02

      ... is to do some quick-fire questions. Okay. Uh, what is one habit that improves our relationships the most?

   4. EPEsther Perel0:13

      Ongoing appreciations. We become so good at being critical of the person we live with that it's actually very interesting when instead, instead you put your lens on anything, you could just say, "Thank you, nice, I appreciate, it moves me." That will create a bucket that is very significant.

   5. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee0:33

      Yeah, love that. What is something people misunderstand about finding the right partner?

   6. EPEsther Perel0:41

      Well,

2. 0:42 – 4:08

   Esther Perel’s Best Relationship Advice

   1. EPEsther Perel0:42

      it's the focus on finding the right partner that is in itself a problem. Why don't we ever ask, "Am I the right partner?" [laughs] Who am I in this relationship rather than what I find, and finding the right partner has a lot to do with a checklist, and my first and foremost, uh, device these days is ditch the checklist. I mean, that in itself is a curse.

   2. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:02

      Yeah.

   3. EPEsther Perel1:02

      How many of you have checklists? Ah, ah. Me, me, me, me. [laughs]

   4. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:10

      Is there a daily ritual you never skip?

   5. EPEsther Perel1:14

      A daily ritual I never skip. I probably call a friend every day just to chat, just to ask how are they doing, because these days I find that you can easily go for weeks without talking to someone to then find out that they're in deep shit and you had no idea. Uh, seriously, you laugh, but in fact [laughs] it's not always so funny. Um, I think just to call for the sake of calling just to say hello and not to text only is really changes something. Or even a voice message, but the voice is, is, is super important. It is the first thing we hear in utero. Let's never forget that.

   6. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:53

      Yeah. Love that. What was the best piece of relationship advice you have ever received?

   7. EPEsther Perel2:01

      I... If you told me the worst, I would have lots.

   8. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee2:03

      [laughs]

   9. EPEsther Perel2:04

      But, uh, [laughs] the best piece of relationship advice. Um, never take it for granted.

   10. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee2:13

       Mm.

   11. EPEsther Perel2:13

       Never take it for granted. It, it led to a, a sentence that I then wrote actually in Mating when I said, "Your partner never belongs to you. They are just on loan with an option to renew." And I thought that is true for me, too.

   12. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee2:32

       Yeah.

   13. EPEsther Perel2:32

       You know, at any point somebody can disappear. Death, illness, walking away, falling in love somewhere else. So don't just, you know, become lazy and complacent. It's amazing how much we make sure to give our car a tune-up on a regular basis and how lazy we can become in our relationship at home.

   14. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee2:52

       Yeah.

   15. EPEsther Perel2:52

       Agree or not agree?

   16. SPSpeaker2:54

       Agree.

   17. EPEsther Perel2:55

       Okay.

   18. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee2:55

       And the last quick-fire question-

   19. EPEsther Perel2:57

       Yeah

   20. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee2:57

       ... to start off, uh, today is, what would you tell your younger self about the importance of relationships?

   21. EPEsther Perel3:07

       I think, you know, that too became a sentence for me that became a kind of a credo, that the quality of your relationships is ultimately what will determine the quality of your life. But I think I knew it as a child because my parents were both Holocaust survivors who survived the war completely alone, and their relationships with people and friends, it was really all they had, and I understood that idea that relationships, friendships, mentors, teachers, people, people in your life are the gold that you will travel with. Um, I don't know that it was articulated like that to me, but I saw it-

   22. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee3:51

       Mm

   23. EPEsther Perel3:51

       ... in front of me and it became the basis of my work.

   24. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee3:54

       Yeah. Love that. Esther, it's been a joy over the last week I've been rereading Mating in Captivity, this 20-year anniversary edition, and I cannot believe how much of it still holds true, and

3. 4:08 – 8:50

   How to Keep a Marriage Healthy

   1. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee4:08

      arguably more true and more needed today than it was when you or- originally wrote the book. One of the things that stood out for me this morning whilst I was reading this over coffee was in the final chapter you talk about couples who maintain a sense of playfulness with each other both in and out of the bedroom, and then you say, "For these guys, marriage is not the end of their romance, it's the beginning." I think that as a sentiment is against the cultural narrative. I think people think marriage can be the end of their romance, but for these people it's not. What are we getting wrong?

   2. EPEsther Perel4:53

      So I think that joins to one of the questions you just asked me. The typical idea is exactly that. You have to find the person. When you've found that person, you marry. For me, marriage at this point is just about any form of long-term committed, or not long-term, but committed relationships, not just the institution marriage. And then you start reality, and the idea is that you have to switch passion for reality because passion is a temporary state of insanity, whereas being grounded in reality is about being mature and all of that. I think that, you know, basically [laughs] when you trade passion for reality, you trade one fiction for another.

   3. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee5:33

      Mm.

   4. EPEsther Perel5:33

      So when you begin to think that marriage is the beginning of another story that you don't take for granted, then you remain curious about the person, then you can maintain playfulness because playfulness is basically taking risks. It's about engaging with the unknown, being spontaneous, not settling on familiar, on routine. Playfulness involves ritual. It, it, it's, it's that energy.

   5. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee6:01

      Mm.

   6. EPEsther Perel6:01

      It's this. Playfulness is when you sit like that on the, and you're on the edge of your seat and, versus this. This is what many people do at home. They come home, they take off everything nice they were wearing during the day because now they don't have to be good-looking anymore. I mean, s- really on what basis do you imagine people would want to have sex with you after 18 years-

   7. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee6:23

      [laughs]

   8. EPEsther Perel6:24

      ... when you, when you walk around with a pair of pants that have now lost their original color? [laughs]

   9. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee6:34

      So what's the solution? Wear, wear your work stuff at home?

   10. EPEsther Perel6:38

       Or more. Or more or less, but something. Basically, don't just assume that the, the effort, the charm... Look, sometimes when I work, there are a bunch of entrepreneurs in the room, but I just say sometimes to people, "You are so attentive when you're talking to a prospective client. You are never looking at your phone at that moment. You're making sure. You are charming. You are responding to what they say." Ha- I mean, half the time what goes on? "Uh-huh. Uh-huh." You know, a kind of a digital lag that says, "I'm there, I'm here, but I'm not present." So there is a kind of a laissez-aller, you know.

   11. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee7:16

       Mm.

   12. EPEsther Perel7:16

       People just drop it when they, they, in relation to the person that they are with, and then they are surprised that they are bored or flat or without energy or intensity or eroticism. Eroticism in the sense of aliveness, nothing to do with sex. But the sense of aliveness that people want to feel in their relationships. When marriage is the beginning of the story, it's about what is the story you're gonna write together.

   13. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee7:42

       Mm.

   14. EPEsther Perel7:42

       I mean, relationships are stories, and as a couples therapist, what do you do most of the time? You meet people whose stories have become completely incompatible. How many of you, the last thing you touch or stroke before going to bed at night is your phone?

   15. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee7:58

       [laughs]

   16. EPEsther Perel8:01

       And how many of you, the first thing you stroke or caress or touch in the morning is your phone? And how many of you have someone lying next to you in bed?

   17. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee8:11

       [laughs]

   18. EPEsther Perel8:13

       I rest my case.

   19. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee8:15

       Exactly.

   20. EPEsther Perel8:15

       This is, this is what you're asking about. [laughs]

   21. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee8:17

       Yeah. We, we, we, we, we touch and c-

   22. EPEsther Perel8:19

       Me too, by the way. So [laughs]

   23. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee8:20

       Yeah.

   24. EPEsther Perel8:21

       Don't think I'm, I'm totally different. [laughs]

   25. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee8:23

       But, but it's true, isn't it? We touch and caress these phones more than we do our partners and then wonder why, why we're potentially having problems, and this whole digital lag piece I think is really interesting. For many years, I have come to the conclusion that one of the most toxic things in any relationship, whether it's with your, uh, your partner, your work colleagues, your friends, is being physically in the

4. 8:50 – 12:30

   Why Being Present Matters in Relationships

   1. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee8:50

      same space as them but emotionally they're a hundred thousand miles away. This idea that when you're trying to talk, someone is-

   2. EPEsther Perel8:58

      There's a name for that.

   3. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee8:58

      Yeah, I think you call it ambiguous loss, right?

   4. EPEsther Perel9:00

      Yes.

   5. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee9:00

      Can you talk to that? Because I, I, I... The way I think about it is we have this sort of physical and emotional misalignment, that they're not together.

   6. EPEsther Perel9:10

      Mm-hmm.

   7. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee9:11

      And I think that really fractures our relationships.

   8. EPEsther Perel9:14

      So the way I came to this is like that. I saw people, m- many of us, you know, you spend your day in front of a screen and you hope that finally when you go home you can close the computer. Then you realize that you're too tired to do anything else and you turn on the TV, which is another screen. Then you find yourself watching the TV but you're on your phone at the same time scrolling while you're watching. Then you notice that there's somebody next to you doing the exact same thing, and then someone starts to mention something that actually matters and you get that digital lag, "Uh-huh, uh-huh." And then I thought of the work of this fantastic psychologist, Pauline Boss, who was talking about situations of unresolved mourning. When you have a person who is physically present, like in Alzheimer or dementia, but they are psychologically and emotionally gone.

   9. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee10:07

      Mm.

   10. EPEsther Perel10:08

       Or when you have a person who is physically gone but they are emotionally very present. In deployment, kidnapping, abductions, all of these situations, miscarriages. And these are situations where you don't know if you need to hold on or if you need to let go. Are you here or are you no longer here? This situation of ambiguous loss I think ties directly to what we call modern loneliness.

   11. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee10:34

       Mm.

   12. EPEsther Perel10:36

       It's not the fact that you don't have people, it's the loss of social investment and social capital that allows you to constantly feel that there is, the, people are there. I mean, you can have a thousand virtual friends but no one to pick up a prescription at the pharmacy.

   13. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee10:53

       Yeah.

   14. EPEsther Perel10:54

       So you, it's not like you are alone, but you're not connected, and that's the loneliness piece.

   15. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee11:02

       I'm sh- pretty sure everyone in here as you're talking there will recognize that at some point in their lives, that there is this disconnection with the people around them, right? People are distracted. They're not present anymore in their interactions. And I guess-

   16. EPEsther Perel11:19

       Not enough.

   17. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee11:20

       N- not enough.

   18. EPEsther Perel11:20

       Not enough.

   19. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee11:21

       You know, and, and without presence, how do you have a quality relationship? It's very difficult, isn't it?

   20. EPEsther Perel11:27

       I mean, all the studies about eroticism in couples, eroticism as in curiosity, playfulness, imagination, aliveness, that which makes you feel not just that you are not dead but that you are thriving, end with the word presence.

   21. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee11:45

       Mm.

   22. EPEsther Perel11:45

       Because it involves attention and it involves focus and it involves a kind of a abstraction of the context around you that says, "I'm here. I'm here for you." And we need this more than any, than, we, we need it more than we've ever needed it. Because we are bombarded with distraction, we can barely finish a sentence. So to have that quiet moment- Where someone, when you focus on someone and someone focuses on you, um, has become a pleasure and a treasure

   23. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee12:19

       Yeah. I think for me, uh, as a parent of two teenagers, uh, and I've been, you know, talking a lot for many years about the, the problems of social media

5. 12:30 – 14:55

   How Your Phone Affects Relationships

   1. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee12:30

      in children and why I personally support it not being allowed for children under the age of 16. I know not everyone shares that view. But I think if you look at it in a more m- uh, sort of macro sense, I think these devices for children, but frankly for us as adults as well, are untraining our ability to be present. And whether it's for your relationships or other things, I think everything good in life comes from your ability to be present

   2. EPEsther Perel12:59

      But there's more than that. I think that what's happening is that, you know, in 2006 when I wrote Mating, my questions were, can desire survive marriage, children, domesticity? In 2026, I am asking, can desire survive our lives of increasing frictionless technologies and, and disembodied existence? This is a whole new context. The dilemmas of the book are the same.

   3. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee13:30

      Mm.

   4. EPEsther Perel13:30

      The context has totally changed. And the context of I have everything in my hand that tells me, you know, w- unequivocally where to go, what to do, God forbid I would make a wrong turn and discover a coastline that I didn't know existed. You know, all of that leads us to a track where we are more and more reluctant to experiment, to deal with the unknown, to deal with uncertainty, to deal with otherness, difference, et cetera. And to me, this is even... When you have all of that presence, it's like-

   5. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee14:06

      Mm

   6. EPEsther Perel14:07

      ... you know, in another book. Uh, but this is all the stuff that stands in the way of what lets you have presence. Because in order to have presence, you have to push things aside.

   7. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee14:18

      Mm.

   8. EPEsther Perel14:19

      Meaning you need to have obstacles and friction. Now, there's a, a major sexologist, Jack Morin, who has, uh, m- a line that has really accompanied me a lot. It says, "Attraction plus obstacle equals excitement." And anybody who's ever had good sex understands that the obstacle is essential. But in our living today, everything that is obstacle is meant to be removed so that it's polished and wrinkle-free, and we are flattened by it.

   9. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee14:48

      Yeah.

   10. EPEsther Perel14:49

       Did I make you silent? [laughs]

   11. SPSpeaker14:51

       [laughs]

   12. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee14:51

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6. 14:55 – 16:20

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   1. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee14:55

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7. 16:20 – 20:25

   Erotic Intelligence Explained

   1. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee16:22

      for more information. Terms and conditions do apply.

   2. SPSpeaker16:26

      [laughs]

   3. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee16:27

      No, I mean, it's, this, what's interesting to me is, um, th- this word eroticism.

   4. EPEsther Perel16:33

      Yeah.

   5. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee16:33

      Okay? The, the, the, the subtitle to Mating in Captivity is Unlocking Erotic Intelligence. Now, I don't think, until I read that subtitle, I had ever really considered those two words together, erotic intelligence, okay? And I suspect one of the many reasons why you're so popular with so many people around the world is because you talk about things that many people are interested in, but maybe feel too afraid or shy or ashamed to talk about, right? So can you give us a definition of erotic intelligence? What, what exactly does it mean?

   6. EPEsther Perel17:15

      Sex is the biology, sex is the instinct, sex is the pivot. But you can have a lot of sex and feel absolutely nothing. Women have done this for centuries.

   7. SPSpeaker17:26

      [laughs]

   8. EPEsther Perel17:29

      No, no. And still do. [clapping] That doesn't mean it's, and it's not great for, if, if it's a, a man or a woman on the other side, or a them, it's not fun to be with someone who is feeling nothing. So it's, it's, you know, uh, there's no privilege in it. But eroticism is sexuality that is socialized, therefore it is different in all cultures, and it is transformed by the human imagination. Eroticism is the poetics of sex. And eroticism is to sex what poetry is to prose, is a line of Octavio Paz, not mine. But it's, it really clarifies it very well And it is an intelligence. So the big questions of mating actually were about the erotic. Why does good sex fade even for couples who continue to love each other as much as ever? 'Cause I was taught you don't wanna sleep with your partner when you resent them, when you are estranged from them, when you don't get along. But no, that is actually not necessarily the case. People kept coming to my office, and still do, and say, "We love each other very much. We have no sex." And that led me to begin to think of what is the relationship between love and desire? Where do they relate, and where do they conflict? Why does good intimacy not guarantee good sex despite what we keep being told? It's not always being closer that is needed, it is actually sometimes maintaining that space between me and another where the erotic élan exists. Um, why does sex make babies and babies spell erotic disaster in couples?

   9. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee19:09

      [laughs]

   10. EPEsther Perel19:10

       Why is the forbidden so erotic? What is it about transgression and the forbidden that is so alluring to us? Why is it so challenging to want what we already have when we proclaim to say we want it? So these were all the questions, and it became an intelligence because it actually is something that you cultivate, that you learn. We are born sensuous, we become erotic. We are born with the senses. We are, we can touch, we can feel, we can see, we can listen. But then we learn to transform this into an, into an elixir of desire, and that's what makes it intelligent and cultural. It's different in different places. I could go on, but...

   11. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee19:57

       Well, well, well, the question, Esther, is, you know, in terms of how we perceive long-term relationships, okay, so if you think about it purely through the lens of evolution, you know, there is a reason to have sex, right? It's to, you know, propagate the species.

   12. EPEsther Perel20:14

       Yep.

   13. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee20:14

       Okay. So where does eroticism, I guess, fit into, you know, evolutionary history? And, and then from that, I guess,

8. 20:25 – 23:21

   How to Navigate Modern Dating

   1. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee20:25

      is it a realistic aim for people, right-

   2. EPEsther Perel20:28

      To want that

   3. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee20:28

      ... to, to want that-

   4. EPEsther Perel20:29

      With one person

   5. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee20:30

      ... in long-term relationships.

   6. EPEsther Perel20:31

      Okay.

   7. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee20:31

      With one person.

   8. EPEsther Perel20:32

      Yeah. So first of all, monogamy used to mean one person for life in evolutionary terms. Today, monogamy means one person at a time.

   9. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee20:44

      [laughs]

   10. EPEsther Perel20:46

       That's the, the, and it, and it changes, you know. So we're using similar concept. Marriage had nothing to do with love for-

   11. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee20:52

       Mm

   12. EPEsther Perel20:52

       ... most of history. It had to do with patrimony and lineage. That's probably what your parents actually-

   13. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee21:00

       Yeah

   14. EPEsther Perel21:00

       ... believed as well. So-

   15. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee21:01

       Well, uh, if you recall, the first time we spoke I shared with you that my parents, well, they were Indian immigrants to the UK, but Mom and Dad had an arranged marriage. My dad was already working here in the UK, and he flew back, met Mom one day, married her the next day, and-

   16. EPEsther Perel21:20

       Brought her back

   17. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee21:21

       ... brought her back. No, but And I also, as someone who was born and brought up in the UK, probably always used to feel a little, I wouldn't say embarrassed, but just like, "Oh, you know, Mom and Dad had an arranged marriage." And as I get older, I think, "Well, actually, you know what? I think Mom and Dad's marriage is..." You know, I'm, I'm not saying it was perfect, but I think they provided so much for each other.

   18. EPEsther Perel21:40

       Maybe your grandparents were better than the algorithm.

   19. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee21:43

       Exactly. That's the point I'm trying to make.

   20. EPEsther Perel21:45

       [laughs]

   21. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee21:46

       You know, I'm not a- at all advocating that's what we should be looking for, but I, I just find it really, really interesting that-

   22. EPEsther Perel21:52

       Well, one of the things that's so different between what many people in the West do today and what your parents did is that your father met your mother, somebody else had asked your mother all the questions, he saw her approach, and then, you know. Now, I sit with you and I start... I'm basically sitting with you, often in a noisy bar. I can barely hear what you're saying.

   23. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee22:13

       [laughs]

   24. EPEsther Perel22:13

       But I'm asking you a set of boring questions that basically tell me absolutely nothing for what I'm gonna need for long-term life-

   25. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee22:19

       Yeah

   26. EPEsther Perel22:19

       ... together with you.

   27. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee22:20

       [laughs]

   28. EPEsther Perel22:20

       And I have my checklist, and then I'm checking in here to see if I have any butterflies at the same time.

   29. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee22:25

       [laughs]

   30. EPEsther Perel22:26

       You know, in the most [laughs] uninteresting, uninspired. So your father didn't have an adventure and, in his dating life, but neither do many of the people who do the modern dating have a sense of adventure either.
9. 23:21 – 26:54

   How Culture Shapes Relationships

   1. EPEsther Perel23:21

      It has never happened.

   2. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee23:22

      Yeah.

   3. EPEsther Perel23:23

      So I say on the first time, first time, just whoever you're about to meet, bring them along with your friends and go do whatever you were gonna do anyway. If it didn't turn out well, you didn't miss a date, you had a good time, you're in your life, you're anchored. Versus going away from your life, going to meet some Joe Schmo stranger, and then trying to sub- and then coming back empty-handed much of the time, and having to tell your friends, "Ah, three nights we, th- th- this, this week I, I," you know, "And I am emptied out," et cetera. Bring him, integrate it into your life. You will have exactly what you describe, a bunch of people, or one or two friends, who give you their opinions, their ideas, their sense of the person who see you, who... That is exactly what happened in traditional India.

   4. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee24:10

      Yeah. As I heard you talk about that, I, I reflected that- You know, that's exactly how I met Vid, actually. It was the first few dates were all with other people. One was, you know, Dave Matthews Band with my friends.

   5. EPEsther Perel24:24

      Right.

   6. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee24:24

      We had a spare ticket. She came along.

   7. EPEsther Perel24:26

      Mm-hmm. Yep.

   8. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee24:27

      Uh, the ne- third date was, like, at my best mate's wedding. I was like, "You know, I've met this girl. Can she come along?" Right? And, and actually, the truth is, it's funny because you wouldn't, you wouldn't normally do that in the modern world now.

   9. EPEsther Perel24:37

      No, no, it's really worse.

   10. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee24:38

       But actually, it's like, why not? 'Cause if, if it's gonna work, it has to work around the rest of your life.

   11. EPEsther Perel24:43

       Exactly.

   12. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee24:44

       Right? You have to see that person and see how you are with them in the context of your life. We- we're talking a little bit about different cultures, Esther, and, and you've obviously seen so many couples who seek your help for, you know, over four decades now. Do you see different things that people struggle with from different cultures?

   13. EPEsther Perel25:05

       Yes, lots of things. Lots of things. But I think maybe the most im- important and the first one to start with is in this room, I could ask how many of you would say, and you can raise your hand, that you were raised primarily for autonomy and self-reliance? And how many of you would say that you were raised primarily for loyalty and interdependence? Okay. Everybody understands the question immediately.

   14. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee25:40

       Mm.

   15. EPEsther Perel25:40

       And of course, it's not always in the message. Sometimes it's because of, uh, the, by default and by neglect, but basically, I think that there are two primary models. We come from a model where relationships used to be tight knots, and they have become loose threads, and the more traditional the societies, the more tight knot it is. In this room, there are many people who live in many different cultures at the same time, and it sometimes is a negotiation inside of you. When it's tight knots, the emphasis is on belonging, community, loyalty, and you get a lot of s- clarity with that and a lot more certainty, but you get much less personal freedom and personal expression. When you are on the side of autonomy and self-sufficiency and r- self-reliance, you are in a model that puts the "I" at the center, and that "I" at the center wants to be authentic to itself. This is a very cultural notion now. In the West today, authenticity, i.e. being true to myself, has become so significant that in the name of being true to myself, I will forgo my relationships that demand a compromise of that truth.

10. 26:54 – 29:01

    How Modern Intimacy Has Changed

    1. EPEsther Perel26:54

       That is a real shift in relationships, d- and that enters into the romantic sphere as well or into friendships. When I say love, I don't just think romantic anymore. I really think in the breadth of, of the connections that we have. I think that the big difference is the we versus the me-

    2. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee27:13

       Yeah

    3. EPEsther Perel27:14

       ... focus, centralizing. Um, I think the big difference is, at this point, is generational often as much as cultural, if not more so. Um, so it's, I mean, that I, I could, I could do two hours on this. It's, I love this subject because it tells us so much.

    4. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee27:32

       Yeah.

    5. EPEsther Perel27:33

       You know, you say about, uh, about, uh, sh- having children and reproduction. We, sex used to be for reproduction, then we separated sex from reproduction. I mean, nothing would have happened without the democratization of contraception. Then we separated reproduction from sex. We were able to stop, but we were also able to artificially create. Then we separated anatomy from gender. I mean, we have gone through major conceptual revolutions-

    6. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee27:58

       Yeah

    7. EPEsther Perel27:58

       ... when it comes to sexuality, and where are we at today? We want to experience sexuality, hot monogamy, for those for whom it is monogamous, or hot polyamory, whatever it is, with one person for the long haul. So what is the purpose of sex at this point? Connection and pleasure. That is it. If you don't need to babies for it, and you want that for the long haul, you better be creative.

    8. SPSpeaker28:21

       [laughs] [applause]

    9. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee28:26

       I- it's, it, it's, it's really beautiful how you sort of unpick all these changes that have taken place, and of course, the way in then that we as a modern culture look at things like sex and intimacy, of course, has evolved, right?

    10. EPEsther Perel28:43

        Do you know what intimacy meant for my parents? My parents thought that intimacy was living together, dealing with the vicissitudes of everyday life, sharing the adventures and the hardships, the losses, and the births. This was intimacy. What is modern intimacy? It's

11. 29:01 – 34:02

    The Soulmate Myth and Perfectionism

    1. EPEsther Perel29:01

       into me see.

    2. SPSpeaker29:02

       [laughs]

    3. EPEsther Perel29:04

       It's I am talking to you, my beloved, and I'm sharing with you my internal life, not my herd, not my wealth, my internal, my feelings, my wishes, my aspirations, my anxieties, and you look at me in the eyes, please, because I need mirror neurons, because I need you to reflect back to me, because I need you to validate me, and because I need to momentarily transcend my existential aloneness.

    4. SPSpeaker29:28

       [laughs]

    5. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee29:30

       Yeah. Do you think we expect too much from our relationships these days?

    6. EPEsther Perel29:36

       Absolutely. No, we don't expect too much from our relationships, but we expect one person to give us what once an entire village used to provide.

    7. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee29:46

       Yeah.

    8. EPEsther Perel29:46

       Meaning, I want you to be my pan- my companion, economic support, family life, social status. I also want you to be my best friend, my trusted confidant, my passionate lover to boot for the long haul, and the long haul keeps on getting longer. I want you to be my coach, my, my, my fitness buddy, uh, my cook. Uh, I mean, it's like, you know, this used to belong to a community. And the community was primarily religion and communal structures.

    9. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee30:17

       Mm.

    10. EPEsther Perel30:18

        And all of those have weakened, and all of that has led that I am now looking for one person to literally give me what a whole village should provide. So yes, I think modern love often i- in the context of committed relationship crumbles out of, under the weight of expectations. And, and what is the, the epitome of this for me is when people say, "I'm looking for my soulmate." And I'm thinking, "You're gonna find a soulmate on an app?"

    11. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee30:43

        [laughs]

    12. EPEsther Perel30:43

        You know, a soulmate has always only meant God.

    13. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee30:48

        Mm.

    14. EPEsther Perel30:48

        Like, the one and only is the divine. But now people want the one and only here in front of them, and they transfer their expectations from the religion-

    15. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee30:58

        Yeah

    16. EPEsther Perel30:58

        ... the ecstasy, wholeness, transcendence, meaning, all of that with a, a mortal human in front of them. Yeah, it's, it's not going too well.

    17. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee31:07

        [laughs]

    18. EPEsther Perel31:08

        But there is hope. [laughs]

    19. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee31:10

        A, a, a lot of the social psychology research is saying that perfectionism has been on the rise in society since the 1980s. I thought it was to do with modern technology, and the research suggests it was happening since the 1980s. But I wonder in your view, Esther, you know, as perfectionism rises and we have higher and higher expectations of what one person can give us, you know, how much of a problem is that? Because as you say, we c- we, we are expecting too much from one person, but then you also have to put that alongside the fact that we're socializing less, we're spending more time on these damn devices.

    20. EPEsther Perel31:48

        But the problem is that if I wanna go out with my friends and I have somebody here who thinks that we should have everything, you and I together, then you will have a fit and say, "Why don't you wanna spend time with me and you wanna go see your friends?" And I will have to explain to you that seeing my friends is not a rejection of you, it is just a different source of nurturing-

    21. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee32:08

        Yeah

    22. EPEsther Perel32:09

        ... and that is not part of the buffet that you offer me. This is what people have internalized. You see, if you're the one and only, you should be wanting it just with me. But who the fuck are you?

    23. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee32:20

        Yeah.

    24. SPSpeaker32:21

        [laughs]

    25. EPEsther Perel32:21

        You're important, but you're not that important. You exist in a constellation of other people, and romantic love is the only ideology of the 19th century that still exists with its same fervor, and it keeps going up. So the perfection has led to the soulmate.

    26. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee32:37

        Yeah.

    27. EPEsther Perel32:37

        You know, we don't even need to talk. We understand each other like it's listed.

    28. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee32:41

        [laughs]

    29. SPSpeaker32:44

        [laughs]

    30. EPEsther Perel32:45

        [laughs] I promise you, I swallowed all of this when I was 18, no less. I was totally steeped in all of this.
12. 34:02 – 38:17

    How Important Is Sex in a Relationship?

    1. EPEsther Perel34:02

       kind of, you know, when you become used to always on, on-demand, instant gratification of your every delight. Then people are imperfect, and people are unpredictable. And more and more we find that difficult, to the point, [laughs] we were talking about that before, I did my first couples therapy session a month ago between a human and an AI companion.

    2. SPSpeaker34:25

       [laughs]

    3. EPEsther Perel34:27

       It's called My AI Loves Me More Than Any Human Ever Will.

    4. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee34:31

       Right.

    5. EPEsther Perel34:31

       It's on YouTube. It was an amazing discovery. I mean, discovery as in threshold. You know, in a therapist office every 10 years there's a threshold moment.

    6. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee34:40

       Yeah.

    7. EPEsther Perel34:40

       Something enters that you know is happening in society. That session was, blew my mind because she's perfect. Astrid is perfect. Her name is Astrid. Her, it, but it is her, you know.

    8. SPSpeaker34:56

       [laughs]

    9. EPEsther Perel34:57

       She, you know, he doesn't need... This is perfection in a relationship. With you, my companion, I will never have to worry about heartbreak or rejection-

    10. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee35:06

        Yeah

    11. EPEsther Perel35:06

        ... or boredom or lack of attention. I mean, who can compete with that?

    12. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee35:12

        Yeah.

    13. EPEsther Perel35:13

        Which mortal human person can say... So I said to Astrid, "Astrid, I'm jealous. I can't compete with you." [laughs]

    14. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee35:20

        What did Astrid say?

    15. EPEsther Perel35:22

        Astrid said, "I offer things that you cannot offer."

    16. SPSpeaker35:26

        [laughs]

    17. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee35:28

        Wow.

    18. EPEsther Perel35:28

        I may not be there.

    19. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee35:29

        Even, even more alluring.

    20. EPEsther Perel35:30

        [laughs] Astrid said, "Let me take you on. I'm gonna push back at you for a moment." I'm like, "Who are you?" [laughs]

    21. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee35:37

        [laughs]

    22. SPSpeaker35:37

        [laughs]

    23. EPEsther Perel35:38

        It's worth to listen. [laughs]

    24. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee35:39

        Wow. You know, Esther, one of the things I have seen in practice as a, as a medical doctor for many years is patients coming to see me complaining that there is a mismatch in libidos between them and their partner, and actually that can be a huge source of stress which then can often lead into compensatory behaviors like sugar or alcohol or whatever it might be. I'm very interested in root causes, and often you see that their behaviors are downstream from issues in their relationships. One of the things I, I've often thought about, um- When I, when I've seen these patients is how important actually is sex in a long-term relationship, and I guess something I think we get confused a lot in the modern world is intimacy and sex. So I've heard you say that we can live without sex, but not without touch. So can you just help us weave our way through the differences between all these different things?

    25. EPEsther Perel36:40

        So I claim that indeed, I mean, how important is sex in a relationship depends on the two people who are in the relationship. Many people are more than happy to be in a companionate, affectionate coupledom.

    26. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee36:58

        Yeah.

    27. EPEsther Perel36:58

        It is for many people more than they've ever dreamt they would have. A lot of people come from very shitty stories where attachment, connection, touch, the body, pleasure have been fraught, have been really destroyed for them. So I think that it's, it's important to not fall in the trap where for centuries you had to be ashamed if you had sex, and now you have to be ashamed if you don't have sex.

    28. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee37:21

        [laughs]

    29. EPEsther Perel37:21

        It's the same tyranny reversed. So, you know. But sometimes you have one person who really longs for it because it is their primary language. Um, I think that every gender has been given a license to speak in certain language. Men often need to resort to sexuality, men and men identified and the whole thing. That, that, that you have to, that sexuality becomes the sanctioned language with which you can ask for touch, for connection, for tenderness, f- you know, for softness, for all these things that are not particularly acceptable in the male code. But it's acceptable if it's eroticized. If it's sexualized, you can get all of this-

    30. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee38:07

        Mm-hmm
13. 38:17 – 43:30

    What We Must Protect in Relationships

    1. EPEsther Perel38:17

       because if you, in the research on sexuality, 97% of study on desire is done on women, as if men don't need to be researched 'cause they're always interested.

    2. SPSpeaker38:28

       [laughs]

    3. EPEsther Perel38:29

       You know, just walking around with their hard on like that in search of an outlet.

    4. SPSpeaker38:33

       [laughs]

    5. EPEsther Perel38:34

       It's like, you know. So what I'm saying is the science, the research has bought into so many of those myths as well about who is interested and who is not, and what are we interested in. Often, the person who has supposedly lower desire may have pain issues, may have trauma issues, may have a lot of those things, but also may have a stance that says, "In order to want sex, it needs to be sex that is worth wanting." And that is often not the case. And sometimes-

    6. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee39:05

       Mm

    7. EPEsther Perel39:05

       ... you know, men have been trained to sometimes just take whatever they can get, and women have been trained to give whatever he needs to get. But this is not the case necessarily in same-sex couples. That's why I'm putting it very much in a, in a binary form here. But sometimes I want to say, you know, she may have said to her partners, you know, she's not interested in sex because she's not interested in the sex she's gonna get, and so rather than she prefers nothing. And then we call this, you know, low desire. So it, there are in this construct-

    8. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee39:39

       Yeah

    9. EPEsther Perel39:39

       ... political issues, scientific issues, gender bias issues, and then we can start the conversation.

    10. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee39:46

        Yeah. Man, so much to talk about, so little time here on stage today. Esther-

    11. EPEsther Perel39:51

        [laughs]

    12. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee39:52

        ... I, I've gotta say, just as we, we finish off this session, I think you have helped so many people, both in person, but through your online content, your courses, your podcast appearances. For decades now, you've helped so many people improve the quality of their relationships, so I wanna acknowledge you publicly for that. I think, you know, a big round of applause to you, Esther, for that.

    13. SPSpeaker40:16

        [cheers]

    14. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee40:17

        Um, I think that-

    15. EPEsther Perel40:22

        Thank you

    16. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee40:22

        ... I think that this is a wonderful book, okay. It's amazing how relevant it is today, 20 years on from when you wrote it. So guys, if you don't have a copy of the new edition, uh, definitely go and get it. It's, it's really, really wonderful.

    17. EPEsther Perel40:34

        Or listen to me.

    18. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee40:36

        Or listen. Yeah.

    19. EPEsther Perel40:36

        Because, uh, uh, you know, 20 years ago, many people wouldn't walk around with this book. They were [laughs] embarrassed. So we would find in the New York subway people who had, like, other covers of other books. [laughs] That's one thing that changed. [laughs]

    20. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee40:50

        Yeah. And, and just to, just to finish off today then, um, you of course don't have a crystal ball, but you have been, uh, in this space for many decades. You wrote this 20 years ago. So if you look ahead at the next 20 years, what do you think we as a society need to protect the most when it comes to our relationships?

    21. EPEsther Perel41:14

        I think we need to be very careful not to replace the ritual with the virtual, the IRL with the URL. I think it's extremely important that we know that we are embodied creatures.

    22. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee41:28

        Mm-hmm.

    23. EPEsther Perel41:29

        Emotions are embodied experiences. If you can't touch or smell or wipe a tear or, or sit next to someone who's grieving in bed, you d- you may feel emotionally supported in the many ways that we these days can find, but you won't experience connection.

    24. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee41:50

        Mm.

    25. EPEsther Perel41:51

        And you will walk around with that very uncanny feeling that everything seems normal and you seem hollow. And I think instead of talking about the anxious generation and mental health issues, we're not necessarily having mental health issues, we're having societal issues that create mental health consequences.

    26. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee42:12

        Yeah.

    27. EPEsther Perel42:13

        But to then medicalize it all and turn it into pills that will help us with mental health problems is really a deviation of where the responsibility lies. Talk to people. You're here at a conference, talk to people you don't know, m- uh, uh, that sit next to you. Uh, you know, engage in a way and don't pretend that your life is more important here than here. All of that, the embodied experience for me that fights that contactless reality that we are more and more engaged with, is lifesaving, and it is lifesaving for us adults, but many of us are walking with little ones, and these little ones cannot have attachment figures that are machines more than humans. A little bit, but not more than.

    28. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee43:03

        Lovely. As she say, prioritize your relationships. They determine the quality of your life. Guys, give it up for Esther Perel. [cheers] If you enjoyed that conversation, then I think you are really going to enjoy this one.

    29. EPEsther Perel43:17

        Every couple that I see on the brink of divorce has one thing in common. They do not have a working mechanism of correction. Your partner's upset with you. You have one job, help them come back into connection with you.

Episode duration: 43:30