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Dr Rangan ChatterjeeDr Rangan Chatterjee

Why The Culture Makes You FEEL LOST & UNHAPPY... Fix This To Find FULFILLMENT | Will Storr

What does the word status mean to you? For most of us, it probably brings up ideas of wealth, celebrity or material possessions. But could it be something much more meaningful and central to who we are as humans?

Dr. Rangan ChatterjeehostWill Storrguest
Apr 19, 20231h 42mWatch on YouTube

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Transcript

  1. 0:00 – 1:10

    Perfectionism as a hidden health issue: when the “bar” is set too high

    1. RC

      When we think about our health, we don't really think about perfectionism.

    2. WS

      Mm.

    3. RC

      And in your latest book, The Status Game, you, you make the powerful case that social perfectionism and materialistic goal seeking is linked to all kinds of problems, including depression, anxiety, eating disorders, self-harm, and suicidal thinking.

    4. WS

      Mm.

    5. RC

      What's going on?

    6. WS

      Well, you know, as we go through life, we're trying to achieve a, a, a level of status, you know, with, with other people, and so we're trying to feel like we're, you know, good enough. Uh, we're trying to feel like we're valuable people. And so we all have this kind of bar that we're trying to meet, and the question is kind of where is that bar? Like, how high is it? Who sets it? And you know what I've argued in The Status Game and in the previous book, um, Selfie, is that, that we live in a culture where the bar is unreasonably highly raised, and I think that's, you know, one of the reasons why we're seeing this great kind of rise in negative mental health problems that people are having.

  2. 1:10 – 2:11

    Why perfectionism has risen since the 1990s (and what it feels like)

    1. RC

      Perfectionism appears to be on the rise. There's a lot of research now supporting, I think the ideas that you first put forward in Selfie quite a few years ago now.

    2. WS

      Mm.

    3. RC

      Is perfectionism on the rise, and why is it on the rise?

    4. WS

      Yes, so perfectionism is on the rise. You know, there was a major study, um, by British psychologists that, that, that looked at 40,000 people in the UK, the US, and Canada and found a really significant increase in perfectionism since the 1990s. And so it is on the rise. It, and it is, you know, it's a serious issue 'cause as you say, it's linked to self-harm, eating disorders, suicidal thinking, you know, depression, anxiety, you name it. A- and so what perfectionism is is a sensitivity to failure in your environment. So when we're made to feel over and over again like we've failed somehow, like we're l- we're too low in status, we're not good enough, um, that's, that, that's what it feels like to be a perfectionist because then you sort of, you know, you're, you're pushing yourself forward all the time trying to be, to become more and more perfect.

  3. 2:11 – 5:05

    Culture, media, and economics: how “ideal selves” intensify inferiority

    1. RC

      So is it this idea that we are constantly less than? So we've all got an internal ideal inside our heads. We, we've all got these stories about who we are, who we think we are, who we think we should become.

    2. WS

      Mm.

    3. RC

      And are you really saying that actually, if that bar is set too high, then no matter what you do, you will never meet that bar, and so the problem is you always feel inferior, and that's why we get stressed out and our mental health suffers?

    4. WS

      Yeah. Abso- that's absolutely right. That's absolutely right. And so, so, so, like, you know, as I say, who sets the bar? Where is the bar? Well, the bar is all around us. The culture sets the bar. Television sets the bar. Social media sets the bar. Taylor Swift sets the bar. You know? Love Island sets the bar. Like, we're surrounded by, um, um, ideal selves. We're surrounded by these heroic figures, and so subconsciously that's giving us this repeated message, "This is what good enough looks like. This is what good enough looks like." And so that's stressful, especially for young people, especially for people who are kind of much more sensitive to those kinds of signals. So, so see, I, I think, you know, that's why we're seeing this rise in perfectionism. And also, you know, li- life in general is getting harder. You've got to think about the economy, too, um, and how the economy is almost kind of turned against millennials and people in the, you know, Gen Z, Gen Zed, um, generation. It's harder than ever to feel good enough. In, in an economic sense, it's harder than ever to be o- get on the property ladder. Um, the millennials are the first generation in history to be less wealthy than their parents. Even if you go to university, um, in this country, in Canada, in America, there's no guarantee anymore of having a successful career. There, there's huge underemployment of graduates. So for all these reasons, people are feeling, es- especially young people are, are feeling that they're not good enough anymore. You know? There's a, there's a level of status which they should be achieving, and they're not achieving it, and that's painful.

    5. RC

      What's changed, Will? Because you say young people-

    6. WS

      Mm

    7. RC

      ... are maybe exquisitely sensitive-

    8. WS

      Yeah

    9. RC

      ... now to the perfectionist ideal that's being portrayed to them.

    10. WS

      Mm.

    11. RC

      And it's obvious to put all the blame on social media, for example.

    12. WS

      Yeah.

    13. RC

      And I'm sure we're gonna get into that.

    14. WS

      Mm.

    15. RC

      But if we just zoom out for a minute, like I'm in my mid-40s, what was different when I grew up compared to how people are growing up now? You know, what I'm trying to get at is-

    16. WS

      Yeah

    17. RC

      ... why is perfectionism actually going up?

    18. WS

      Yeah.

    19. RC

      Because I would've seen, as a kid, I mean, top of mind, you would've watched Top Gun and seen Tom Cruise with a, an amazing body playing volleyball on the beach.

    20. WS

      [laughs] Yeah.

    21. RC

      And you know, as a, as a-

    22. WS

      Yeah

    23. RC

      ... young, impressionable boy, you're like, "Oh, my God. That's what a man is."

    24. WS

      Yeah.

    25. RC

      Right? That's what a successful-

    26. WS

      Yeah, yeah

    27. RC

      ... achieving man is.

    28. WS

      Yeah. Yeah.

    29. RC

      Right? So why has it changed? 'Cause it was always there, wasn't it?

  4. 5:05 – 11:23

    Neoliberalism and the rising “perfect hero”: how competition reshaped expectations

    1. WS

      Well, yeah. So, so, so I'm gonna introduce a, like a jargony word [laughs] and the jargony word is neoliberalism. So like, like it's, like it's a, it's a scary word, but I'm just gonna sort of unpack what that means 'cause I think it's really important that we understand what neoliberalism is, and, 'cause it kind of defines our era. So, so, so neoliberalism is this economic theory that was embraced by Margaret Thatcher and Ronald Reagan at the end of the '70s and into the, and into the early '80s. And what they decided to do was to, you know, because the economies of the West were going wrong, right? So, so they had to think of a new way of running, like running our country economically. And the idea was we're gonna, like, ramp up individualism. We're gonna ramp up kind of competition. We're gonna ramp... We're gonna sort of get rid of all these kind of collective ideas like, um, unionization, um, you know, regulations on banking and business, um, you- Even things like council houses, like anything that was, that, that was, that has this sense of everybody's looking after everybody else, we're gonna get rid of all that stuff and force people to become super competitive. And what's amazing about that is it, is it worked. They did that and, and, and this really s- sinister phrase that, um, Margaret Thatcher used when she was interviewed by The Sunday Times [laughs] when she was first became prime minister, she was asked about, "Well, you know, what are you doing? What, what is this big master plan you've got?" And she said, "Well, the, the project is economic, but the object is to change the soul." And that's really sinister because that's what happened. She changed the soul of us in the West. And so what, what, what happens when you change the rules of the game of life is that we change in lockstep. So what you see in the 1980, beginning in the 1980s is that, is, is we all become neoliberals. In other words, we all become super competitive, super individualistic. So think about 1980s culture versus 1960s culture. Like 1960s culture is hippies, it's collective, it's anti-materialistic, it's screw the man. What's 1980s culture? It's keep fit, it's cocaine, it's greed is good. You know, that, that's how we changed. So, so, so I think that's, that was our... You know, I'm, I'm in my kind of late 40s, so that was our childhood, the '80s and the '90s. So Top Gun, you know, Tom Cruise's character in Top Gun is very different to a hero that you might find in a '60s or a '70s movie. He's an action hero. And so that, that's-

    2. RC

      Mm

    3. WS

      ... kind of new thing in the 1980s. That's a neoliberal idea. Um, so, um, so, so, so I think that's the first thing to understand, that we, that we are, we are by design of governments living in a super competitive environment. And the other thing to understand is that, is it's never ended, and in fact, we've be- w- what's happened in our life is we've become more and more and more individualistic, more and more and more competitive. So you bring up the example of Tom Cruise. Yeah, we've... I saw Top Gun when I was a kid, and that was a, that, that was a hero to look up to. But what I'd ask you is, what do male superheroes look like now? They don't look like Tom Cruise did in Top Gun. They are out here. They have bodies which are impossible for any mortal to get. Like, they, they have become even more, in inverted commas, perfect. The bar, like, if you were, if, if you were the best... Like I, I went to [laughs] I was at school with a guy called Nick Moore. He, he, he was a good-looking boy. He looked a bit like Tom Cruise.

    4. RC

      Mm.

    5. WS

      And you know, like, but, but nobody at school looked like a Marvel superhero. They're unbelievably, they're almost CGI, they're so beautiful. But, and that's, that's difficult. Like if you think about male body image, um, y- you know, like Love Island, for example. The, the young men on Love Island, I mean, they're beautiful. Their bodies are incredible. They're insane. No one looked like that when we were kids in the '80s and '90s. Like, no young person looked like that. So that's an example of how in our lifetime, the bar for what's good enough, the bar for what is high status or sufficient status has raised to kind of sometimes crazy levels.

    6. RC

      I mean, it's so powerful, Will, hearing about that because it... I mean, we're gonna hopefully get to optimistic notes in this conversation. But if you just sort of take a step back and look at the scene, I mean, there's a couple of things came up for me as you were saying that.

    7. WS

      Mm.

    8. RC

      Um, I really like Dr. Gabor Maté, who's been on this podcast several times, and in Gabor's latest book, he kind of makes the case very well that we are products of our environment, right? He's, He [laughs] I think he says something like, you know, if you were, if you were in a lab, for example, and you had a cell in a petri dish, and it wasn't thriving, you wouldn't think there was a problem with the cell. You would understand that there's a, there's a problem with the culture.

    9. WS

      Yeah.

    10. RC

      There's a problem with the petri dish, the environment in which it's in. Let's move the cell into a different environment-

    11. WS

      Yeah

    12. RC

      ... to allow it to thrive. And so if we look at society, and as a medical doctor, this is of huge interest to me, and we've never covered really perfectionism on this podcast before, which is one of the reasons I really wanted to talk to you, Will-

    13. WS

      Mm

    14. RC

      ... is because if the culture is setting our expectation of what is okay, of what is normal-

    15. WS

      Mm

    16. RC

      ... and if that expectation is unrealistic for many of us, for most of us, no wonder rates of stress and anxiety-

    17. WS

      Mm

    18. RC

      ... and depression and eating disorders and w- you know, keep the list going, are on the rise-

    19. WS

      Mm. Mm

    20. RC

      ... because we're constantly feeling like we're not enough, we are less than, we're not meeting what we should be meeting. So it's really, really problematic, isn't it?

    21. WS

      Yeah, it is. And, and, and, and the way I think about it is i- if you think about it in its most simple terms, and, and this is to me in its most simple terms, and, is, is that 99% of people in the UK and Canada and the US, they've got housing, they've got food, they're safe, they're not gonna get killed. You know, like most of us, we're fine. And so why aren't we happy? You know, like i- if you think about it rationally, it's insane that, that, that most of us very often feel less than, feel not good enough, feel like we're not, we're not achieving enough, when most of us are looking after our kids perfectly well, are feeding ourselves perfectly well, are not at risk of homelessness or, you know, violent attack. Um, you know, why is that? And, and as you say, it's because our culture is, is setting the bar. Our, our social environment, our economic environment is setting the bar for, um, what is good enough. And, and, you know, the bar is too high. You know, the bar is crazy high.

  5. 11:23 – 14:41

    Social perfectionism: other people’s expectations, identity threat, and suicide risk

    1. RC

      In Selfie, you talk about the different types of perfectionism. One of them is social perfectionism. I found this really interesting, particularly in that section, I think it's in the first chapter, Will, where you talk about suicide-

    2. WS

      Mm

    3. RC

      ... and the link between that and social perfectionism. So I wonder if you could just speak to that. What is social perfectionism, and how does it relate to suicide?

    4. WS

      Yeah. So when most people think about perfectionism, they think about what's called self-directed perfectionism, which is, um- I've got my idea of what's, um, good enough and what's acceptable and what's enough status, and I'm not meeting it, so I feel bad. I wanna push myself further. But social perfectionism is, is, is even more toxic than that, because social perfectionism is, um, it's not self-directed, it's other-directed. It's like, um, other people have these expectations of me, and I'm not meeting those expectations. So it's, so it's very rooted in identity. So it's, so for example, it's this idea of what, what, what does it mean to be a good enough father? Well, in, in these people's eyes, I'm not a good enough father. In these people's eyes, I'm not a good enough, you know, whatever my job is. In these people's eyes, I'm too fat, I'm too bald, I'm too whatever it is. So, so, so, you know, it's toxic because it's, it, it's rooted in, in our imaginations of what other people are thinking about us.

    5. RC

      Which may not even be true.

    6. WS

      Exactly. And of- and often it isn't. I mean, we all know what it feels like to spiral and have these kind of neurotic thoughts about what other people are thinking, and social perfectionism is, is especially linked to suicide and suicidal ideation. And, you know, when I was researching Selfie, I spoke to a, a, a world expert in suicidal psychology, which is Dr. Rory O'Connor, you know, a, a, an amazing guy up in University of Glasgow. We were talking about, because I think it's quite well known that suicide mostly affects men. Like, like in the UK and in, in, in English-speaking countries, around eighty percent of suic- of people who kill themselves are men. And the, you know, the, the kind of, the, the kind of pat response to that is that, you know, men are more violent and all that stuff. And I'm, I'm sure there's, there's truth to all that stuff. But that's not the whole answer by a long way. And so, you know, uh, there's this idea that social perfectionism impacts men in a particular way, and that's because, um, of this idea of masculinity that we have. And the, and the, and that masculinity, being a man is something that, it's not, it's not something that you get automatically just by having a certain kind of, you know, cer- certain stuff between your legs. It's something that you earn. It's a cultural idea. So th-th-there was a very interesting study that I talk about in Selfie where they ask people, men and women, "What does it mean to be a man?" And the list was insane. You've got to be a protector. You've got to be a provider. You've got to show mastery and control at all times, but you've also got to be vulnerable and, you know, all, all this stuff. So when you look at the list, it's like, God, that's a crazy list. [laughs] Like how can we... You know, and I think this is why, um, suicide especially impacts middle-aged men, 'cause it's in middle-age that we feel like, you know, success becomes a bit more of a struggle in middle age. Our bodies change. We might, um, st- we might kind of find our, our careers stalling or even collapsing. So, so suddenly it's the idea of, well, I'm, you know, I'm, I'm a bad father because I've lost my job and, and I'm a bad husband. And so there's this kind of, um, link between social perfectionism and, and, and the very state of being a man.

  6. 14:41 – 17:22

    The brain’s “status detection system” and personal vulnerability to body-image status

    1. RC

      How do you think this mythical idea of the perfect man affects you?

    2. WS

      That is a good question. Well, I mean, I think it does affect me. Yeah, I mean, I think it does. I mean, y-you know, uh, it's, um, even at forty-eight, I'm very aware of body image issues. I'm always trying to lose weight. Um, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm aware of the baldingness, you know [laughs] . I've just had this lump lasered off my eye, you know. So, so, so, so yeah, like, um, y-y-y-you'd think you'd get to a certain age and even a certain level of status perhaps, where you could stop worrying about that stuff, um, but you don't. And, and, and that, and I think that partly is because, you know, in The Status Game, I write about this concept in neuroscience what they call the status detection system, that the brain has got this always on bit of evil technology [laughs] called the status detection system. And it means that we're constantly, unconsciously, um, looking for signals of status in our environment and where we sit in that up and down thing. And, you know, weight, whether we like it or not, um, you know, body, the way our bodies look, um, how attractive we are is a status game, uh, uh, well, I would say in the West, probably all over the world. Um, probably, I, I, I, I, I, I expect more so in the West. Um, um, um, it's, so, so, so it's this, you know, it's, it's this game that you can't help playing in a way.

    3. RC

      Yeah. You said just before we started recording that you've started weightlifting.

    4. WS

      Yeah.

    5. RC

      Is that for your health or is it to meet this ideal of the mythical man?

    6. WS

      It's one hundred percent to meet this [laughs] ideal of the mythical man. Like, I know it's good for me. Like, I know like sarcopenia, like as you get older, you lose muscle mass, and I'll be-- but I, I would love to sit here and say to you, "Oh, it's because it's..." But it isn't. It's because, it's because of the aesthetic, you know. I, I remember the moment. I was with my wife in, in Australia and I, and I, and I'd, um, I'd been at a literary festival, and somebody had sent me pictures of me on the stage in the literary festival, and you could see my belly pi- poking out of my shirt, and I was like, "Oh God, I look awful." And we were walking along. We were doing the walk from Bondi Beach to, uh, uh, to, to, to, to, uh, with, sort of... I can't remember what the walk's called, but this, we, we were walking from Bondi Beach and I, you know, and I, I saw this guy who was a middle-aged guy, and he looked, he had pecs, and I was like, and I remember thinking, "I want that. I really want that." And then and I, and I was like, and I, I promised that when I get home, I'm gonna go get, buy some weights and I'm gonna start. So I did, and I've been, that's, that's been doing it for y- I know it, it doesn't show [laughs] , but I was starting off from a very, from a very low base. I was very, I've always been very, really like skinny and yeah.

  7. 17:22 – 21:47

    When aspiration becomes toxic: evolution, small tribes, and today’s massive comparisons

    1. RC

      You know, most things in life, Will, there's, there's upsides and downsides. So when you were talking about perfectionism, I think you started off talking about self-directed perfectionism.

    2. WS

      Yeah.

    3. RC

      So, you know, as you were talking about that, it made me think, well, that can be a good thing up to a point, I presume, i.e., um, I want to get better-

    4. WS

      Yeah

    5. RC

      ... at this particular skill.

    6. WS

      Mm-hmm.

    7. RC

      Oh, I can see that person who's really good at that skill. I'm gonna look up to that person-

    8. WS

      Yeah

    9. RC

      ... learn from them and try and improve myself.

    10. WS

      Mm.

    11. RC

      So at what point does this start to become toxic?

    12. WS

      Mm.

    13. RC

      Because looking up to people, um- Having people to aspire to is not necessarily all bad, is it?

    14. WS

      No, no, that's a good thing. I, I, I, but I think when psychologists talk about perfectionism, they're, they're talking about when it becomes damaging, when it starts leading to, you know, anxiety, depression, suicide ideation, self-harm-

    15. RC

      Mm

    16. WS

      ... eating disorder, all that stuff. But, but that... But, but what you say is exactly right. That's how we're wired to, um, learn. That, that's how we're wired to play status games. That's, that... And, and that is positive. So, so, so we, we have these ways of subconsciously identifying people to look up to. Um, and, and, and we, we, we, we have this urge to get near to them because we want to learn from them and, and we do. We, we, like, in the book, I call it the, you know, copy, conform, copy, flatter, conform kind of instinct. That's what we-

    17. RC

      Mm

    18. WS

      ... that's what we do naturally to high status people. Um, and, you know, that's why, um, high status people are treated so well. It's like, um, it's like a bribe to persuade them to let us be near them, and we want to be near, the brain wants to be near them 'cause it wants us to learn from them, and that, that's why, you know, we, we over-copy or-

    19. RC

      Mm

    20. WS

      ... often. So if you, like, I always remember, you know, when I was a, when I was nine years old, my, that my first idol was Nick Kershaw, the singer Nick Kershaw. [laughs] And I remember being very conscious of, like, 'cause I saw him on TV-AM being interviewed, and I watched it on video loads of times. And he had this particular way of sitting where he'd cross his legs and he'd have, with his ankle on his knee. I remember being at school and I was, I started sitting like that, and I remember thinking, "I quite like that I'm sitting like Nick Kershaw, but also isn't it weird that I'm sitting like Nick Kershaw?" And that's the, that, that's natural. That's what, that, that's what we're designed to do.

    21. RC

      Who we are.

    22. WS

      Yeah.

    23. RC

      Yeah. It's, it's, again, it's, it's like everything. It's not good or bad. It's just in what context-

    24. WS

      Yeah

    25. RC

      ... to what point do you go, how far do you go with this?

    26. WS

      Yeah. Well, I'd argue that it's good mostly, 'cause it, 'cause it is how we learn. Like, like, it's good that we identify successful people and try to become successful ourselves. That's how we develop, that's how we progress. Where, where, where it becomes toxic i-is where the b- where the bar for what we consider successful, um, becomes too high. I think the way to understand it is to think about, about our evolutionary history. So all this cognition, all this wiring that, that makes this, you know, copy, flatter, conform, and interested in becoming good enough, you know, as you know, it, it all comes from the hunter-gatherer kind of era-

    27. RC

      Mm

    28. WS

      ... that, that very long period in which our brains were evolving and we were becoming human. And so in the tribal context, there wouldn't have been that many people who were high status in the group. And, and, and what surprised me when I was doing the research into the status game is that because we live in this world full of leaders and full of very high status people, in the groups in which we evolved, there was very rarely, like, a big man, like, leader figure. It was mostly, um, leadership was done by con-consensus and when pa-particular decisions were made, uh, like a, like a, a senior coun-council would come together and discuss, and, and they would try and form consensus. So, so, you know, so, so that was, that's how we evolved. That's how we kind of, in, in a vertical, we're supposed to, you know, be-behave. So in those groups, you know, who, who were the high status people we were measuring ourselves against? Well, there weren't that many of them 'cause it was just, you know, it-

    29. RC

      Mm

    30. WS

      ... it was a relatively small group of people a-and it was divided by gender, so men would tend to mimic, you know, mimic men, and women would tend to mimic women. And it was even, would have even been sort of divided in terms of age. You know, like, you tend to mimic people who are closer to you in age. So the bar wasn't massively high because we're not living cheek by jowl with Taylor Swift and Barack Obama and-

  8. 21:47 – 30:31

    Social media comparisons and the “mute” strategy to protect yourself

    1. RC

      Yeah. I, I think a key point there for me, Will, is we can know with our rational brains that when I go online, people are presenting-

    2. WS

      Yeah

    3. RC

      ... the best side of them-

    4. WS

      Yeah

    5. RC

      ... selves. They're not presenting the dirty laundry or the dishes that are in their sink.

    6. WS

      Mm.

    7. RC

      They've gone to a different part of the house to post a nice photo where things look good.

    8. WS

      Yeah.

    9. RC

      And I don't think we should really even be criticizing people for doing that. I think that's human nature.

    10. WS

      Of course, yeah.

    11. RC

      But even if we know that's happening, I think our subconscious still takes in the message that that's their life, that's their life, that's their life. So even... We can read the book. We can read your book. We can read about it and go, "Yes, that is happening. That is not real." Yet, if you spend 10 minutes, only 10 minutes scrolling Instagram, maybe you'll come across 50 posts. It's not unreasonable for some people. So that's 50 signals to your brain saying, "Your life is not as good as someone else's life."

    12. WS

      I think that's absolutely right. I mean, I think it's interesting th-that, I think absolutely right, that we can consciously know something, but subconsciously it doesn't seem to make that much difference. Like, like, you know, like, uh, like, like... And, and, and I think that's right. And, you know, I, I have that experience as an author. You know, I, I only really use social media as a, as a way to kind of promote my, you know, business as an author. Like, I'll tweet book news, and when I'm doing courses, I'll tweet that, and when, when I've got a nice book review, I'll tweet that, but I'll never tweet the bad ones. You know, that's my perfectionist presentation. Um, but, but, you know, wh-when I, when I'm having kind of down days and/or, you know, m-maybe I'm feeling bad about my career and I see other authors tweeting about their amazing book review and they're at the Hay Festival or whatever they're doing, it, it feels bad. Like, it, like, it, like, it makes me feel, "God." So, so, you know, I feel that too. So even though I know the reality of their career is probably a bit like, well, like, my ups and downs and you're only showing the good stuff, it's still like, "Oh, God." So, you know, like, like I've muted, I've muted a whole bunch of, you know, friends who are minor writers because like, like, it became too painful for me to see this constant river of success they were having. And it's, um, you know, it's kind of e- in a way it's embarrassing to admit, but actually I don't think it should be. I think that's what we should be doing to kind of protect ourselves. A-and also, I mean, you know, I, I, I have a good idea that I've also been muted by lots of writer friends. [laughs] And you can kind of tell 'cause when you tweet good news- They, they don't react i- in a polite way. So you think, "Oh, I'm muted by those people." So... And, but I don't... I, I, I completely get it. Like, I, like I know I've annoyed them [laughs] by, by tweeting too many good book reviews. Like, I, I get it. But, but like, say, if I, as a 48-year-old man who've published six books and all that stuff, feel that pain, then what is it like for a 17-year-old boy or a 17-year-old girl? Like, it's gonna be worse, I think.

    13. RC

      Yeah. I mean, this is great, Will, because this is a really practical thing that we can all do online, let's say. Now, the really interesting thing about that story as well, and this speaks to perfectionism, it also speaks really to status. I wanna go into status shortly. You know, I really wanna understand your definition of status and why you decided to write an entire book, a brilliant book, but why you decided to devote an entire book to it. I would argue that most people would look at you and go, "Wow, Will's an incredibly successful writer. He gets great reviews. He's considered a very stylish author. He's sold hundreds of thousands of books." But the problem is everything's relative.

    14. WS

      Mm.

    15. RC

      Right? So even though you know that or part of you knows that, you are still just as susceptible as anyone else to go online and perceive that that person is doing better than me, right? And, and here's the reality, we all have bad days, right? Yes, it would be great to get to the point where we examined, uh, why does that bother me, right? Let me, let me sort out that, let me look at that insecurity, and I'm all for that kind of stuff for sure. But at the same time, I recognize that we live busy lives, and if you find that someone is, not intentionally necessarily, but if you are feeling bad when you constantly see posts by a particular person, of course you could unfollow. But sometimes that feels like an aggressive act to some of us, you know, 'cause we're worried about how we'll be perceived if we've unfollowed. Probably no one will even notice, but we think they, they're gonna notice.

    16. WS

      Yeah. Yeah. [laughs]

    17. RC

      So muting, I think, is a very practical tip. I mean, you've used it, Will, in, in respect to your career. I think I shared once on this podcast before that a friend of mine when, uh, their mother was in the final stages of her life and, you know, they were really going through the mill, cancer, end stage, he realized that at that time, going on Instagram made him feel awful. So I think he went off it for a period of time, or he certainly muted a lot of accounts 'cause he didn't wanna see even his mates having good times. He just didn't wanna see it at the time. It was too much for him to handle. And so I think this is a really practical thing that we all can do in the modern world 'cause we do live in the modern world, we do live in the online world. Many of us spend hours each day or certainly a lot of time online each day, and I think we do need to understand that we've gotta take a bit of control here where we can.

    18. WS

      Absolutely, yeah. And, and I, and I think that, that, that we shouldn't feel bad about muting. It is human nature to compare ourselves to other people around us. That's how it works. That, that, that's how the, the status detection system works. It's automatic. You can't help it. So if... Y- y- you know, it... You should stay away from that which hurts you, and if you feel like it's hurting you, then mute. You know, don't feel bad about it. [laughs]

    19. RC

      I think I'm just-

    20. WS

      Mute proudly

    21. RC

      ... I'm just pulling up the start of The Status Game, right? Because I think the opening is just amazing. It, it's so pacey and seductive. Uh, and there's one particular bit that, that comes to mind. Here, here, you put it here. "As the psychologist Professor Brian Boyd writes, 'We naturally pursue status with ferocity. We all relentlessly, if unconsciously, try to raise our own standing by impressing peers, and naturally, if unconsciously, evaluate others in terms of their standing.'" Now, Will, I think many of us would like to think that we don't play that game.

    22. WS

      Mm.

    23. RC

      Okay? We don't try to raise our own standing by impressing others. We don't try to judge others and make a, you know, an opinion of them based upon what they're wearing or how they're behaving. But in this book you say we all do. It's fundamentally who we are as humans. Do you still stand by that?

    24. WS

      Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, it, it's, it, it's human nature. You, you can't get rid of it. Like, you know, we play status games. Um-

    25. RC

      So, so what is status?

    26. WS

      I think what upsets people sometimes when I talk about status is, is that, is, is that they think... And what ma- what, what makes people think, "That's not me," is that they, they, they associate status with things like celebrity and money and showing off and all that stuff. Um, and it can be those things, but it isn't ne- isn't necessarily those things. Status is simply the feeling of being valued. It's the sense of I'm a valuable person. So we used to think about connection being a fundamental human need, and belongingness, and, and that is a fundamental human need. So w- we, we want to get along with people. Um, but we also, like I say, we want to feel loved, uh, and accepted, but we also want to feel valued, like we, like, like we have value to other people. And that can be like a moral value. We can be a courageous person or a selfless person, or it could be a competence-based value, like good at something, like a great tennis player, um, a great, you know, hunter or if you're in a hunter-gatherer context or a, you, you know. So, so, so, so, so yeah, it's, it's simply the feeling of being valued.

    27. RC

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  9. 30:31 – 35:12

    What status really is—and why everyone plays: value, belonging, and evolutionary payoffs

    1. RC

      think when I hear the word status, I don't immediately go to value

    2. WS

      Hmm

    3. RC

      ... and I think many people won't. I think they will think, as you say, money, celebrity, fame, th- these things symbolize status, or designer clothes or a better car or whatever, whatever else. You know, that, that term status I think means different things to different people.

    4. WS

      Hmm.

    5. RC

      But I think you do basically explain in the book how it is relevant to all of us-

    6. WS

      Hmm

    7. RC

      ... and it's worthy of being of value. So you, you talk in the book about these two fundamental human needs. We need to connect-

    8. WS

      Hmm

    9. RC

      ... and we've spoken about connection many times on this podcast and how important it is for us as humans to connect with others.

    10. WS

      Hmm.

    11. RC

      But I think you made the case in The Status Game that connection is the, the kind of first step. You need to feel like you belong first of all. But I, I don't know, I can't remember quite how you word it, but it's, it's basically, but once we've connected, we're not that content to be on the lower rungs of the ladder for long.

    12. WS

      No, no. So we, we, we, we, we don't want to feel likable but useless. Nobody wants to feel likable but useless. No- nobody wants to have it said of them, "Yeah, they're a nice person, but they're a bit rubbish, aren't they? They're a bit pointless." You know, that, that, that's not a good thing. I mean, nobody likes to be insulted. That- that- that's because it's a, we're, we're being told we're kind of low status, and there are very solid evolutionary reasons for this. So, you know, as you know, we're, you know, we're a tribal, we're a, we're a, you know, tribal species. We're hyper social.

    13. RC

      Hmm.

    14. WS

      So, so, so, so the way humans have evolved to solve the problems of survival and reproduction is to connect into groups, and it isn't the individual that solves the problem, it's the group that solves the problem. That's how we, that's how we are as humans, and if you think about human life, that's what we do. You know, whether it's a nation or a company or a football team, you know, we solve problems in the context of groups. And, and so, so, so, so the, the, the psychology that enables us to do that, it wants to incentivize us to join groups in the first place, and that's the connection piece. We want to feel like we belong to a tribe. Um, but once we're in the tribe, the, the tribe has got to become functional. It's got to become good at what it's trying to do, whether it's simply survive or to solve a particular problem. So nature is, also has to incentivize us to be of value. So, so, so back in the hunter-gatherer context, there are, there are kind of two ways of earning status in that group. One was by being virtuous, so by being selfless, by being courageous, but also by knowing the rules of the tribe, the traditions of the tribes, the rituals of the tribe, following those rituals.

    15. RC

      Hmm.

    16. WS

      And so, so that was a way of being valuable, and the other way of being valuable was by being good at something, being a great hunter, a great honey finder, a great storyteller or, you know, whatever it might be. So, so, you know, evolution's incentive is to, you know, when you become useful to the tribe, you're rewarded with status. So other people go, "God, that's a really, that's a really great person. That's somebody that I want to be around." And, uh, but, but also the, the rewards aren't just psychological. They're, they're, they're, they're real. So when you, wh- when anthropologists study hunter-gatherer tribes, they find that the more status that you have in these tribes, the more food you get, the better food you get, the safe- the safer your sleeping sites, um, the greater your, the, the access to your choice of mates. So basically, it's this fundamental rule of the subconscious human mind, go for status, because if you go for status, everything else gets better, and that was true 100,000 years ago in the savanna, and it's true everywhere around the world today. Go for status, because if you go for status, everything else gets better.

    17. RC

      So status in the hunter-gatherer tribe didn't necessarily mean you're the alpha male, you are the best hunter, right? That, that's one way of acquiring status-

    18. WS

      Yeah

    19. RC

      ... and, and, and sort of sending signals out that you are of value.

    20. WS

      Hmm.

    21. RC

      Uh, you're showing that you're of value by bringing back the hunt.

    22. WS

      Hmm.

    23. RC

      Right? But not everyone can be that person.

    24. WS

      Yeah, there are multiple status games. The, the, the best person, the, the person who's best at finding sweet potatoes, the person that's best at finding honey, but also the virtue stuff. So, you know, ritual and, and sacred belief are very important to humans. So you, you, you could become a holy person, like a, like a sorcerer in, in some tribes. So, so it's, it's also about who get, who, who believes the, the, the sacred beliefs most, um, you know, most fiercely, who polices the tribe. So and if you think about the, you know, the modern day, like the pope. What's the pope? The pope is a very high status person with his massive hat and his gold and his palaces and, you know, his-

    25. RC

      Hmm

    26. WS

      ... you know, a- a- and all the deference and worship. But he's a, he- he's a virtue status celebrity. Like, you know, he- he's become incredibly high status in that because he, he knows the rules, he believes the beliefs, he follows the rules.

  10. 35:12 – 54:29

    Three status games: dominance, virtue, and success—plus the trap of “no happy ending”

    1. RC

      I mean, this is interesting, Will. Like, there's different status games, right? Because I, I suspect that some people may listen and go, "Yeah, I get it, that there's people around me who are pursuing status, right. I can see them. They're the ones-

    2. WS

      Yeah

    3. RC

      ... who are really driven. They're working all hours. They're working at weekends. They, they're driven to get to the top." I think that's quite obvious to us that-

    4. WS

      Hmm

    5. RC

      ... yeah, okay, now that you mention status, I get it. They're seeking out more status. But you mentioned the pope there, and yes, his clothing, but I don't know, what about someone like the Dalai Lama?

    6. WS

      Hmm.

    7. RC

      Like, how is he playing a status game? Because he's not, at least to my knowledge, trying to acquire more money and necessarily influence and... Well, maybe influence. I don't know.

    8. WS

      Well, yeah, well, I would argue that. I mean, well, so-

    9. RC

      Okay, go on. So, go on

    10. WS

      ... so one of the most reliable signals of high status is influence, like the more status that you have, the more, the more influence that you have, and Dalai Lama has huge amounts of influence in his tribe. And y- I think the way to look at it is that every human group has a hierarchy. There are people at the top, people at the bottom, and people in between. That's a status game. And so, you know, the Dalai Lama is at the top of his status game, so you know, a- and he'll be treated with deference by people and respect by people, and they'll let him speak. And so, so-

    11. RC

      So hold on. He's playing a different status game, let's say, um, compared to- I don't know, a politician

    12. WS

      Well, yeah, he's play- well, he's playing what I would describe as a virtue game. So it's-

    13. RC

      So, so go on, tell, what, what-

    14. WS

      Yeah

    15. RC

      ... are the different status games-

    16. WS

      Yeah

    17. RC

      ... that we play?

    18. WS

      So there are three, essentially. There are three. I mean, there, there are things like age and beauty, but they're not particularly interesting. I mean, there are three main status games that humans play. The first one is dominance. So dominance is the form of status we've been playing, um, since we were animals, so for millions of years. The dominance is violence, the threat of violence, but also social violence, bullying, ostracization, name-calling. So when you force somebody else to attend to you in status, think of like a mafia don, that's dominance. Um, but then the two more recent kind of forms of status game, the, the, the two games that really define our humanity are, are, are these status games that are all about, as I said, being of value to, to our tribe, and the first one is virtue, the virtue game-

    19. RC

      So what does that mean?

    20. WS

      ... by being a good person, by, by developing the reputation as a good person.

    21. RC

      Okay, hold on. This is a, this is really, this is a really nice one, right?

    22. WS

      Mm.

    23. RC

      Because we, we, we might push away from the dominance one.

    24. WS

      Yeah.

    25. RC

      We might think, even though it's, it's maybe fundamentally who many of us are-

    26. WS

      Yeah

    27. RC

      ... we like to think as humans that we've evolved now to not necessarily need to do that. I know you make the case that that's not the case.

    28. WS

      Yeah. [laughs]

    29. RC

      But the virtue one, being a nice person, doing things-

    30. WS

      Yeah

  11. 54:29 – 1:23:53

    Practical ways to rebalance status: multiple games, volunteering, and healthy vs toxic systems

    1. RC

      V- virtue games was the second type of status game you were talking about.

    2. WS

      Mm.

    3. RC

      And I started thinking about previous patients of mine who were maybe not getting status from their work Or for whatever reason in their life, they felt as though they weren't achieving or-

    4. WS

      Hmm

    5. RC

      ... doing enough. Maybe they came to see me with mental health problems. And when you talk about virtue games, I'm thinking a lot about volunteering-

    6. WS

      Hmm

    7. RC

      ... and how we know the benefits of volunteering are huge. They're profound. I've written in previous books about how, uh, patients of mine, when they started going to Parkrun, not necessarily to run, just to volunteer, their lives would start to change because suddenly they had a community. People would miss them. They felt a value. If they didn't show up, people would ask, "Hey, listen, you know, we really missed you last week." You know, they suddenly felt as though they belonged. So that's, I guess that's community, but probably also status as well. So my question is, well, if someone doesn't feel they are getting adequate status-

    8. WS

      Hmm

    9. RC

      ... in a certain element in their life, can they compensate for that by getting status in another area, i.e., for working for a charity or volunteering?

    10. WS

      Yeah, 100%. I mean, and, and actually, it's one of the things I recommend at the end of the book is, is, is like, you know, play multiple games. Uh, you know, I, I, I think that's-

    11. RC

      Play multiple status games.

    12. WS

      Play multiple status games. Absolutely. Because, um, you know, the, the, the, the research is crystal clear, and, and that's... the, the, the more groups people belong to, the happier they are, the more stable their kind of emotionality. Um, so it's really good for us to be members of multiple groups. And for me, um, you know, a big part of that is, is that you've got multiple sources of status. Um, so, so, so yeah, and, and, and absolutely. I mean, in our kind of success-focused world that we live in, you know, volunteering can be a, you know, a fantastic way of, of, of just creating a new status game for yourself, creating a new source of, um, that signal to your subconscious brain that I am of value to other people.

    13. RC

      So, okay, so playing multiple games. Now, why is that? Is it because if you play multiple games, a bit like spread betting, right? If one of those games falls flat or... Okay, let's say, for example, and I want to talk about retirement here as well-

    14. WS

      Hmm

    15. RC

      ... because I think it really fits in here. But let's say that your job is what gives you your sense of status, right? You know, yeah, I'm a whatever. I do this. I drive this car. I do... you know, whatever it might be, but that's the only game you're playing. Is the problem with just playing one game that you become vulnerable, that if you get fired or if the economy changes and you lose that job or whatever, you know, someone else gets promoted above you and you suddenly feel, "Wait a minute, I've been waiting for that promotion." Like, are you saying that having a different game means that you're less likely to fall into the depths-

    16. WS

      Yeah

    17. RC

      ... compared to if you just relied on one?

    18. WS

      Yeah. So it's a hedge. That, that, that's one of the main reasons. But, but, but, but I think, you know, the, the, the biggest thing about this is that to understand is that your status games are your identity. Like, it's that important to who you are, to your sense of self. You are the games that you're playing. Like, you are a doctor. You are a podcaster. Like, like, the, the, the... are sources of status. Um, you know, they are who we are. So they're that important. So when they go wrong, and sometimes they do go wrong. Sometimes doctors get complaints made against them. Sometimes podcasts fail, you know. Um, it, it, you shouldn't underestimate how damaging that is to the, to the human self. It's your identity that's being kind of undermined and attacked. So, so, so yeah, I think, so I think that's why it's good to play multiple games, um, because you're hedging, you know. So, so, so and if you're just playing one game, e- e- even if it isn't the case of that one game completely, like, catastrophically failing, which it might do, but you know, that game's gonna have ups and downs and ups and downs and ups and downs, and if you've only got one source of status, those down days are gonna be a lot worse, um, than if you had, you know, perhaps two or three sources of status. You're playing two or three different games.

    19. RC

      Does this in any way play into, I don't know, empty nest syndrome, for example, where, you know, of course, every situation is different, but the sort of stereotypical idea that, let's say a mother, for example, uh, has devoted her adult life to looking after the children and let's say has stopped working in order to do that. There can often be a real problem, um, in terms of how they view themselves when the child then leaves home, let's say goes to uni or gets a job and moves out, whatever it might be. Is this related to just playing one status game? I played that status game and now that's gone. I've got a real problem.

    20. WS

      Well, it, it, well, it's definitely related to it 'cause, 'cause it's identity. Like, if all, if, if all of your identity is being a mum or a dad, then of course empty nest syndrome is gonna be a real problem for you because I mean, and I actually had a conversation very recently with somebody I went to school with, a woman I went to school with, who, who's having exactly that issue. You know, she was saying to me, like, "I just... all my kids are going to university and, and I don't know who I am." That's what she said. "I don't know who I am." And it's like, well, that's because, you know, identity is so bound up in our status games and, and her identity was, "I'm a good mum. I'm a great mum, and I've got horses for them," and, you know, all this other stuff. And I mean, I, I think that's the interesting thing about parenthood. It isn't just that we want to be mums and dads. We want to be good mums and good dads and, you know. And that, again, that's a function. It's a good thing that we want to be like that. So, you know, status is bound up in, in, in our sense of how effective we are as parents. The other thing, interesting thing about b- parenthood is that, is that we start playing status games through our children. So we start earning... We, we want our children to start earning status for us on our behalf in a kind of weird way. So we become, you know, kind of, I don't want to say irrationally proud of our children, but because it's not irrational, but we, but, but, but, but our, our children's successes can take on enormous importance to us personally because they're almost playing status games on our behalf. So I think that's, that, that's something else that can happen.

    21. RC

      And that can of course become incredibly problematic. I was chatting to a, uh, tennis coach last year, really nice guy I know, and- He was telling me how one of the kids who he was coaching, he had to actually have a chat with the parents, say, "Listen, I don't think you being here when he's playing is helping." Like, he had to actually-

    22. WS

      Wow

    23. RC

      ... ask them to not come-

    24. WS

      Yeah

    25. RC

      ... to the coaching. And many coaches or teachers will say that actually sometimes parents are living through their kids.

    26. WS

      Mm.

    27. RC

      And often it's the, the dreams that they could never meet. And of course, there's pros and cons of this, but I, I've seen it slip into really quite toxic behaviors a lot of the time. And, you know, I try... I really am trying to say that with compassion because I, I do understand that, um, every parent is, is, is really trying their best based upon what they know, based upon the means that they have. They're trying their best for their children. But I do think sometimes we, we do need to ask ourselves why are we asking our child to do that?

    28. WS

      Mm.

    29. RC

      Is it for them or is it for us?

    30. WS

      Yeah, I mean, I had this growing up with my parents. My, my, my, my dad worked in education. Um, and, and so f- and my, my mum was like chairman of the governors for the school I went to. So education was their status game, and, and, and they put enormous pressure on me to, um, succeed at school. My dad was... They were, they were determined that I was gonna go to Oxford University. And, um, and, and I, I, I, you know, I perform... I, I don't want to blame them for my terrible performance at school-

  12. 1:23:53 – 1:42:24

    Status at scale, health outcomes, and closing takeaways: make it local

    1. RC

      You also make the case that one of the reasons we're so stressed and unhappy is because the status games we play now are just so enormous.

    2. WS

      Yeah.

    3. RC

      Take it back to the tribe. You know, what Professor Robin Dunbar, the Dunbar's number-

    4. WS

      Yeah

    5. RC

      ... the human brain is evolved to only know 150 people. I, I think about that with respect to my own life, and if I went looking, I think I could probably get close to several hundred if not 1,000 opinions every day. It's not healthy for me to be exposed to that amount of opinions, whether they're good or not. Like, it, it doesn't, it doesn't do you any good. So I've really changed my own relationship with social media. You know, I do use it. I, I try my best to use it for positive outcomes to help people with their lives, to drive them to this podcast, whatever it might be. But there's a similar argument there with status, right, isn't there, whereby- We've haven't evolved to play status games on this scale, and if you're playing them on this scale, that's probably why you're struggling.

    6. WS

      Yeah, exactly. We, we, we, we've evolved in the context of small groups, and so we've evolved to play small status games. And, and, and I really believe that the, the reason why we, you know, w- why all this safety and security and comfort that we have in the West hasn't brought us reliable happiness is because of, is because of the status game. It's because we're, we're constantly... We, we're playing these enormous games now with people incredibly, sort of vastly hi- higher above us on that, you know, ladder of status. And, and it, and it, and it's just not natural. I mean, you, you know, like if you think about the companies that we work for, these enormous organizations, like, how, how far away is the CEO from you? Like, it's galaxies away. I mean, one of the amazing statistics I found when I was researching the book was, you know, when we were talking about h- you know, about, about how, uh, corporate, how, uh, our status games are these days was, is they said that 69 out of the 100 biggest economies in the world aren't nations, they're companies. [laughs] Like, that's, that, that's amazing. You know, like, that's how big and powerful the companies that we work for are, and a company is a status game. You know, com- if you're working for Apple or Microsoft or, uh, you know, Walmart or, or Tescos, you know, or, or whoever it might be, like, that is a, you know, that is a big-

    7. RC

      Yeah

    8. WS

      ... scary sta- status game to play. I mean, the other thing, I mean, a- and, and this, I'll never forget this moment when I was, um, when I was still a journalist. I, um, I went to... I was doing a story about this male escort, like the world... like Britain's most successful male escort. [laughs] And I went back to his hometown in Wales to talk to his friends and family about, you know, why he'd left for the bright lights of London and his escorting work. And I'll never forget it. So, so one of his, um, friends was walking me down the high street of this small town in Wales, and he said, um, "You know, this was once a mining town, and, and, and people were proud to be miners. There was, there was dignity in that. There was value in that, you know. To be, to, to, to be a miner in a mining family was, w- was a good thing. Um, but then the mines shut down." And he said, "But then, but, but then we had loads of small businesses. So along this high street, there was the butchers, the baker, the haberdashery, all these ones."

    9. RC

      Mm-hmm.

    10. WS

      And that's great, you know, if your family own the local shop, and, and you as a young person, you were gonna inherit the business and, and you'd be imagining, say, if you're gonna inherit the butcher's, "Well, when I take it over, I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna do this."

    11. RC

      Mm-hmm.

    12. WS

      "I'm gonna start stocking chorizo," or whatever it is. And he said, "But then what happened was the Tescos moved in. And then when the Tescos moved in, all the local businesses shut down." And he said, you know, uh, he said, "I'm sorry, you can get a job behind the Tescos butcher's counter, but it ain't the same as having-

    13. RC

      Mm

    14. WS

      ... y- the family, you, you know, your dad or your mom owning the, the local butcher shop and you inheriting it." And that always struck me because it's like I've never heard that expressed before. Because if you look at it, if you look at it on a pure economic basis, well, they had a job in the butcher shop, now they've got a job in Tescos.

    15. RC

      Mm-hmm.

    16. WS

      They got a job. It's the same. It ain't the same because what happens in these, you know, in, in our, with these huge status games is, is the status is massively diluted.

    17. RC

      Mm-hmm.

    18. WS

      In the status game of your, of your parents' butcher shop, there's four of you perhaps, [laughs] and you're gonna be the king or the queen one day. But in the... behind the butcher's counter in the local Tescos, you're way down that pecking order. Your life is not the same. Your identity is not the same. The rewards are not the same, and it really matters.

    19. RC

      It's interesting. A, a, a few months ago, I spoke to a doctor on this podcast about how to age well, and as part of the research into his book, he visited areas around the world where people are aging very well, you know, the so-called blue zones. And I feel with this anti-aging movement, I think we're missing something really important. One of the things he said in his book was that in these blue zones, in these areas, what he observed was that people knew their place in their community and in their soc- in, in the society in which they lived. They knew who they were. They knew what their role was.

    20. WS

      Mm.

    21. RC

      And I really... I can't shake this idea, Will, at the moment that I keep thinking we're talking about nutrition and muscle to stop getting sarcopenia, and how much movement should we do, and how much sleep do we need? And of course, I'm not gonna argue that those things are not important, [laughs] right? You know what I do, what I stand for, right? Of course those things are important. But I think meaning, the meaning of our lives, how we fit into our community, I think it's more important. I'm convinced it's more important than these downstream physical behaviors. I, I, and I think what you just said about the mining town really speaks to that. Sounds like 20, 30 years ago, people knew who they were, you know? It wasn't-- They could get the same income now for the big corporation, but they're just a number.

    22. WS

      Yeah.

    23. RC

      They, they don't feel that sense of belonging.

    24. WS

      They don't feel as of value.

    25. RC

      Yeah. And therefore, and, and actually, maybe this is a, a good place to, to, to start closing down this conversation is there's a strong relationship between status and health, isn't there?

    26. WS

      Yeah, it's massive. I mean, and this is what the thing that convinced me that, uh, you gotta write a book about this because, because it really matters. And so, so there was a famous set of studies called the Whitehall Studies, and a doctor called Dr. Michael Marmot, um, went into, you know, Whitehall is the, you know, famously the British bureaucracy that-

    27. RC

      Mm

    28. WS

      ... takes all the government policy and turns it into action. So it's a huge, highly stratified kind of status game. And so the, so Marmot kind of measured health outcomes in, in the, in the, in, in the Whitehall and found that the higher you went, the healthier, the better the health outcomes were, the lower the kind of risk of, of kind of early death was. And so the, so the automatic thing people think is, well, that's because the higher they were up, they can afford a personal trainer and a gym membership. But that's not the case. Like these, these people are all employed by the civil service. They're all getting a, you know, good wage. Uh, they can all afford the gym. They can af- all afford to eat what they wanted to eat. Um, so, uh, a- and, and indeed, what he found was that literally one, one level down from the very top, so, so, so still an executive, very, very powerful and rich and successful, was slightly less ... healthy than the one above them.

    29. RC

      Mm-hmm.

    30. WS

      Um, and, and, and then this was replicated in the lab with monkeys. So, so, so, so they took a bunch of monkeys, um, and they gave them this, um, very unhealthy diet of pizza and chocolate, and, um, so the, the monkeys developed high levels of atherosclerotic plaque. Probably saying that wrong.

Episode duration: 1:42:24

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