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Dr Rangan ChatterjeeDr Rangan Chatterjee

Why You Are Stronger Than You Think with Ross Edgley

“You are more powerful than your mind allows you to believe” This week, I have the great pleasure of sitting down with arguably the fittest (but definitely one of the loveliest) men on the planet – swimmer and all-round adventurer, Ross…

Dr. Rangan ChatterjeehostRoss Edgleyguest
Sep 11, 20191h 14mWatch on YouTube

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Transcript

  1. 0:00 – 0:09

    Intro

    1. RC

      [upbeat music]

  2. 0:09 – 1:14

    Setting the scene: a first-ever swimrun at a Vivobarefoot retreat in Devon

    1. RC

      So Ross, welcome to the Feel Better, Live More Podcast.

    2. RE

      [laughs] Thank you. How you feeling, by the way?

    3. RC

      Well, I, I'm actually, uh, feeling a little bit surreal at the moment. Um, let's, let's just set the scene. So we are here in Bantham in Devon. The guys at Vivo have invited me down, uh, for their Vivo retreat, and I've just completed a swimrun. Now, for those of you listening who don't know what a swimrun is, basically, it's a endurance event where you basically wear a wetsuit, you're wearing your shoes, you swim in your shoes, and you run in your wetsuit. And to put it in, to put it in context, guys, I have never done an endurance event. The most I've ever done is a park run on a Saturday morning with my son, which is a 5K event. I've never done open water swimming before, and I've just completed my first swimrun. So we're gonna explore that. So that is what we're talking about. We're actually here in this Vivobarefoot, uh, Vvagon. That's double V, A-G-O-N, and it, it's awesome. It's, like, all sustainable. It's made, you know, it's made out of wood. There's solar panels, and it's all about health and wellbeing. It's about sustainability. It's about community. So yeah, Ross, just setting the scene for the listeners.

    4. RE

      I love it.

  3. 1:14 – 3:10

    Ross Edgley’s extreme endurance background: swimming around Great Britain and pulling a car marathon

    1. RC

      Ross, you know, for my listeners who don't know who you are, you have done some pretty superhuman feats.

    2. RE

      [laughs]

    3. RC

      Um, and, and the last one you did was you actually... What, why don't you say it? You swam around the UK.

    4. RE

      Yeah.

    5. RC

      Explain that.

    6. RE

      Yeah, I mean, they're niche sports, aren't they? They're quite niche. So yeah, I swum, uh, 1,780 miles, uh, all the way around the coast of Great Britain. Uh, took 157 days. Um, a lot of, uh, skin from around my neck and my tongue from, from chafing and, and saltwater exposure. For me, that was one event that, that felt... Well, what, what we've just spoke about there, cathartic afterwards. It was done for intrinsic reasons. It was this idea of, I think afterwards, I just love the fact that I can be, you know, an old man and I can go out to anywhere on the coast and go, "I've swum past there." So-

    7. RC

      Yeah

    8. RE

      ... you know, for me it was the culmination of a lot of, of work and, and studies in sports science as well. Yeah.

    9. RC

      Yeah. Well, that's incredible. I, I also have heard that you've done a marathon whilst pulling a car.

    10. RE

      [laughs] That's true.

    11. RC

      What, what do you, what sort of, what, what car did you pull?

    12. RE

      Yeah. That was a bad idea. Yeah, it was a 1.4 ton car. Um, well, that, that was... Yeah, so we, uh, I kind of finished, uh, playing water polo a- and swimming for Great Britain. So when I finished, I kind of needed something to train for. Um, friend of mine who's absolutely fine now, he w- he was di- diagnosed with cancer at the time. Uh, we wanted to do something to raise money for, uh, the Teenage Cancer Trust. Um, and so a friend of mine just said, "Why don't you run a marathon?" Someone was, "Oh, you know, that's been done." I was like, "Run two marathons." It was like, "Ah, again, it's been done." Then someone went, "Run a marathon pulling a car." I went, "That is not a bad idea." So [laughs] long story short, agreed to do it. Silverstone Race Circuit heard about it, and they threw me the keys to Stowe Circuit, and they said, "Look, uh, as long as you need, uh, to complete it, please, you know, have the circuit." And it took, uh, 19 hours, uh, I think 19 hours 33 minutes, something like that. But 1.4 tons, uh, was pulled 26.2 miles. [laughs]

    13. RC

      I mean, I, I-

    14. RE

      It was bad [laughs]

  4. 3:10 – 3:38

    From “superhuman” to relatable: why mindset lessons apply to everyone

    1. RC

      ... I don't know what to say to that. It sounds, sounds absolutely incredible. But, but for those of you listening who actually feel, well, you know what? Ross is superhuman, as he is. I have been watching Ross for a while, and I think we can all learn tips and principles from what you have done, and I, I really wanna, wanna touch base, 'cause I don't want people to feel the same, "You know what? That's all right for Ross. He's really fit. He trains hard. Yeah, he can do that. What's that got to do with me?" And I, I really wanna touch on a few things like mindset-

    2. RE

      Mm

  5. 3:38 – 5:09

    The 100-meter panic vs the longer swims: cold water shock and fear responses

    1. RC

      ... and, and pushing yourself beyond what you consider your comfort zone to being. I, I feel a bit surreal at the moment, because I have just completed my first endurance event. I've not eaten much after. I wasn't that hungry, and I'm sort of floating on cloud nine at the moment. In fact, maybe, you know, you could probably provide some answers for me. So given that I've just done it, let me ask you a few questions, right? So the event I did today was the swimrun experience event, right? So putting context, I've never swum in open water before. I do swim a couple of times a week at my local pool. Uh, maybe I'll do 300, 400 meters, but normally after each 50 meters, I stop and just, you know, have a little breather. It was the power of the community today that persuaded me to do this. So I swam about 1.8K today in open water, and I probably ran about 9K. Again, I, I only run about 5K once every two weeks or so. So well beyond my comfort zone, and, and doing the events one after the other is something I've never done before. But here's the funny thing for me. I started off with 100 meter open water swim. That was a short one, and I thought, "Oh, that'll be fine. I can swim 100 meters." Halfway into that, I started to panic. My partner said to me, "Rangan, you're hyperventilating. Just try and slow down. Try and slow down your breathing." But I couldn't. So you know, what was going on there? Because in that 100 meter swim, I was thinking, "There is no way that once I've done the next run I can swim the 500 meters when I'm, I'm really far away from land, or the 1K." And weirdly enough, the 500 meters and the 1K was absolutely fine, but I couldn't do the 100 meters. What was going on there?

  6. 5:09 – 8:36

    Central governor theory and anticipatory regulation: “you’re stronger than your mind allows”

    1. RE

      You... Do you know what? I, I love what you said there, 'cause basically I think a lot of the principles that I experienced on the Great British Swim, it was an extreme example, but it's absolutely applicable. So everything that you just described there, I was experiencing through the 150 days at sea. I think when you start looking at Tim Noakes, uh, and his work on central governor theory, he basically proposed this idea that fatigue is an emotionally driven state that we use to, to pull the physiological handbrake. And what he meant by that was, uh, when you are 60 miles into a marathon, you think, "I cannot go on. You know, my lungs are on fire, my legs are burning. I cannot go on. There's no way." All of a sudden, 25 miles in, you see your family and friends, and everyone's clapping. You see your kids at the finish line, and you sprint, you know, all the way to 26.2 miles, and you heroically cross the line. Because Tim Noakes proposed that this idea of fatigue being an emotionally driven state, we use it because it's basically our brain, which is incredibly manipulative, which is trying to, just because it's trying to self-preserve. It's, it's this inbuilt self-preservation mechanism that is saying, "Whoa, you're not safe. You're not safe." Fight or flight. Just saying, "You're not safe, Rangan, you're not safe." And it was exactly the same that when you got in the water today, all of a sudden, central governor theory, your body started to go, "Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa." It's cold. You're hyperventilating. Get out the water.

    2. RC

      I can't see the bottom.

    3. RE

      Stop. Yeah. Everything was screaming out. And it, it is, it is a primitive inbuilt self-me- you know, self-preservation mechanism.

    4. RC

      So, so would you say an appropriate response?

    5. RE

      Absolutely. But you have to understand, we're still wired like our ancestors. So that exact mechanism would've protected us, and we would've, like, ran from a saber-toothed tiger or anything. Now, we don't have a saber-toothed tiger to, to, to worry about. But instead, we're actually voluntarily putting ourselves in those positions. And even though we're voluntarily doing it, the mechanisms are still there. They're still exactly the same. So I think what, once you know this idea, Tim Noakes also, like, expands on it a little bit and talks about this idea of anticipatory regulation, and what he means by this is knowing now that you are far more powerful than your own mind allows you to believe. So when you said, "Okay, how far could you swim this morning? How far can you swim and run this morning?" You would say to me, "Oh, Ross, you know," self-preservation mechanism. You'd have gone, "Oh, maybe 5K." You know, and, and that is just your body saying, "Do you know what, Rangan? That'll keep you safe. You're not gonna go to complete exhaustion. You know, you're not gonna-

    6. RC

      Yeah

    7. RE

      ... hyperventilate. You're not gonna suffer from hypothermia. 5K, 5K." Anticipatory regulation. The reality is, is you're so much more powerful than even your own mind allows you to believe, and we're now only just understanding this in terms of sports psychology. So what you've experienced now is this kind of like, oh, wow, this cathartic sense of I'm safe. You know, there was that fight or flight biochemically, all sorts of things. There was like an orchestra of things going on inside of your body. Neurotransmitters, chemical signals in the brain. Everything was firing, going, "Whoa, whoa, whoa. What you doing? What you doing?" And now you've come out the other end and you've gone, "Wow. You know, I did survive that."

    8. RC

      Yeah.

    9. RE

      And it's almost like a huge reward as well. You look at, like, serotonin, dopamine, adrenaline dumped in your brain to go, "You're safe now. You're safe. Go and, go and have a nice pizza."

    10. RC

      Well, well-

    11. RE

      "Go and relax"

    12. RC

      ... it's funny, 'cause rationally, it doesn't make sense. Just before I came here-

    13. RE

      Yeah

    14. RC

      ... my, my son, my family have come down for the weekend, and it was great that my son and my daughter got to witness that. And he said, "Hey, Daddy, which is, which was the toughest swim for you?" I said, "It was the 100 meter swim." "No," he goes, "but you swam 1.2K at the end and, and 500 meters." And I said, "Honestly, darling, it was, it was the 100 meter swim." And y- you've just hit the nail on the head. Our minds put on the limiting factor to what we can achieve, and I really want people who are listening to this who think, "Well, I, I don't really wanna do a swim run event," or, "I don't wanna swim around the UK," well, what would you say to them?

  7. 8:36 – 11:55

    Recalibrating beliefs about performance: Bannister, Kipchoge, Zatopek, and pain perception

    1. RE

      Yeah, that you're right. It's all completely relative. And I love what you said there, that the next frontier of human performance is in the mind. Previously, we looked at the human body, we looked at our physiology, and we looked at it in terms of almost like a simple mechanical approach. We'd look at lactic threshold, VO2, lung capacity. We'd start looking at that. The best example I can always think of is Roger Bannister. At the time, people said with Roger Bannister, "You cannot run under a four-minute mile. Um, simply cannot be done." Leading physicians at the time were saying, um, you know, "Physiological malfunctions, your heart will explode." Like, it cannot be done. Roger Bannister was also a medical student him- himself.

    2. RC

      Yeah

    3. RE

      ... um, but still laced up his trainers and, you know, Oxford, ran the first sub four-minute mile. Once he did, the number of people running a sub four-minute mile the year after was incredible. It wasn't because there was an advancement in nutrition, technology. Nothing changed. It was just 'cause collectively, we'd recalibrated the human mind to know what we were now capable of. I think we're seeing it right now with Kipchoge as well, like now.

    4. RC

      Yeah. I was about to mention that. For sure.

    5. RE

      Exactly. They're like, "There was no way that we thought you could run under a sub two-hour marathon. No way." And then all of a sudden runs 201 Berlin. He's just run like 202, 203, whichever he was in, in London. And now all of a sudden everyone's like, "Wow, this is possible." But looking back through sports performance and, a- a- a- and the history of sport, you look at even, um, Emil Zatopek. For those who don't know, Emil Zatopek, uh, greatest endurance runner to ever exist. Um, three gold medals in one Olympics, Helsinki Olympics. Had never run a marathon before in his life. But on the morning of the marathon, decided to run it and add a third gold medal to his tally. Reason he did that, with Emil Zatopek, he had this... And I find him fascinating, because he had a, a military background, but he fused the military mindset with, uh, sports science. He used to run 100 400-meter sprints with 30 seconds rest in between.

    6. RC

      Wow.

    7. RE

      Yeah. It's almost like let that sink in there a little bit.

    8. RC

      That, that's interval training to a max, like, like hyper interval training.

    9. RE

      Yeah. And before Emil, people said, "We didn't know the human body could train that hard." You know, th- this idea of work capacity, so your body's ability to perform and positively tolerate training of a given intensity and duration. And with Emil Zatopek, he knew that he could take his body to that sort of a level. And when he did those 100 400-meter sprints with 30 seconds rest in between, he does talk about that he was drilling lactic threshold running biomechanics, so his technique and everything. But he also talks about one of the biggest benefits of those sessions was recalibrating his mind and his perception to pain. So when he did go and run a marathon, never run one before in his life, Helsinki Olympics, and still won gold, it's because he knew he could take his body to that limit. So I think to answer your question, if you voluntarily subject yourself to something, anticipatory regulation, central governor theory, and you're able to achieve beyond what you thought that you were capable of, you're able to just recalibrate your mind, its implications for everything throughout the rest of the, your, your year, you know, work life, family life, everything, it all changes. Now with yourself, previously, before today, you wouldn't have thought you could do that. Now knowing that you can, now knowing that your body is far more durable than you thought it was this morning, it's gonna, it's gonna change how you look at things.

    10. RC

      It, it already has. I mean, it can only be two hours or something like that since I finished, and- I, I just had this straight, this strange inner sense of wellbeing, of satisfaction. I didn't do that for, you know, an in- an Instagram post. I didn't do that so I could tell my buddies. I did that for myself.

    11. RE

      Yeah.

  8. 11:55 – 14:12

    Mind training through discomfort: Stoicism, adversity practice, cold exposure, and minimalist movement

    1. RC

      And I feel inside that, you know what? What else can I do? What else can I conquer? So, so for people who are listening who go, "Okay, that sounds great," you not only have done this training on yourself, I understand that you've also trained other people before.

    2. RE

      Yeah, yeah.

    3. RC

      So do you have some top tips on how people can train their minds?

    4. RE

      Yeah. And, and I think it's something that we so often overlook. You know, I think when we're training, we don't look at, like, mind training. We don't look at, you know, cognitive functioning. But I think if you look back at, um, the ancient stoics as well, like, uh, Epictetus, Marcus Aurelius, you know, they had a philosophy that was dedicated to coping with adversity, and I think we're not comfortable being uncomfortable. Yet, when you look at our ancestors, you know, we were very good w- in, in the animal kingdom, we're not the biggest, we're not the fastest, we've not got sharp teeth. But one thing that we're really, really good at as humans is just suffering, you know, and just, like, endurance, suffering, and sweating. So I think w- this idea of sometimes adversity training is so often overlooked, and what I mean by that is when you go into the gym, you might think, "I'm doing a dance class today." And it's like, "Okay, cool. What are you training?""I'm training, um, uh, deadlifts." Okay, strength, your body's ability to generate force. Strength. "Okay, what are you training?""I'm training running biomechanics." But no one co- often goes into the gym and says, "Do you know what? Today I'm training adversity training. I'm getting comfortable being uncomfortable." And what I mean by that is you don't have to go and run a hundred, 400-meter sprints like a Mills Ath-pec. It might be something like, you know, taking interval training, you know, up the hills, go fell running or, you know, ice cold showers to sort of go down that route as well. You start looking at our ancestors. We had this ability to thermoregulate, to vasoconstrict and vasodilate our capillaries, to open up and close blood vessels. We've lost that now because we're really comfortable. We'll go and change the thermostat, we'll put the central heating on. But as humans, we used to have these, kind of this powerful physiological state, and I think a- again, to, even to go back f- to, to Vivobarefoot, this idea of actually wearing minimalist shoes so those intrinsic muscles in your feet, ligaments, tendons, everything works like it was designed to. I think sometimes simple steps like that, just getting back and making your body work like Mother Nature always intended, I think is, is one of the ways. I- in any way, like I said, cold shower, minimalist feet, something like that.

  9. 14:12 – 21:12

    Dr Chatterjee’s foot and back story: movement mechanics, barefoot shoes, and modern comfort

    1. RC

      Yeah, 100%. I mean, there's so much to talk about there. For me a- and people who maybe heard the first early episodes on this podcast a long time ago now, uh, I shared my story with my back, and I had chronic back pain for years. I'd s- I'd spent so much money and time going round different specialists, different experts, and I'd sometimes get a bit of short-term relief, and then it kept coming back. And then I saw a guy called, uh, Gary Ward, who I think, I genuinely think is one of the world's leading thinkers in movement mechanics. I sought him out. I went to train with him 'cause I thought I'm s- I wanna learn this stuff. People said, "Rangan, you're six foot, six and a half. You're always gonna have back pain." I thought, "No way. Why does that mean I need to have back pain?" I knew there was a way of getting t- to the root cause, and Gary saw me, and he said, "Rangan, y- your right foot's completely flat." I said, "Okay, yeah, and I've been told to wear insoles for that." Then he goes, "Here's the thing. Your right foot, essentially," and I'm paraphrasing now for ease of, uh, understanding, but he basically said that, "Your right foot's forgotten how to work properly. If we teach it how to move properly, I think your back problems will get immeasurably better." And I did five minutes a day on foot exercises, and instantaneously I got back to playing squash, got back to everything. So that tuned me in to actually, oh, my feet are important.

    2. RE

      [laughs]

    3. RC

      Right? And then that led me to barefoot shoes, and actually I tell this story. The reason, the reason I ended up with Vivobarefoot shoes is 'cause at that time, this is about seven years ago, I was looking around. There was a few other makes. I c- I, because I'm a tall guy, I'm a UK size 13.

    4. RE

      Wow.

    5. RC

      And none of them made a UK 13, and I found this company called Vivobarefoot, and they made a UK 13, so I ordered a pair, started wearing them, and literally over two years, I thought, "I just feel incredible." And now they're the only shoes I wear for work, for running, for gym, even for playing squash, and it's incredible. So it's just going back to how the body-

    6. RE

      Mm

    7. RC

      ... was designed to function.

    8. RE

      Mm.

    9. RC

      So there's a lot to talk about, but if we think about modern life, talk about shoes, kids are getting put in cushioned shoes from a young age-

    10. RE

      Mm

    11. RC

      ... and therefore I think are losing touch with the ground.

    12. RE

      Yep.

    13. RC

      Um, but, but then the follow-on question is also, you know, is modern life too comfortable?

    14. RE

      I love that. I think you're right. I think we're atrophying these ancient age-old mechanisms. You know, the feet are absolutely one. You've got all these, you know, biosensors in the feet providing, you know, this, this biofeedback and how we're working, how we're, h- how- how's, you know, the gradient. Are we running too fast, too slow? All of that. We're, and we're shutting that off in these big shoes. But also on top of that, even, like I said, ligaments, tendons, you know, they respond to, to weight and resistance, and we're not putting that through our feet anymore. So you're right, and then even, like I said, about the cold water, I think what you did today, I think it was a, a balmy 14 degrees, I think.

    15. RC

      14 degrees, yeah.

    16. RE

      [laughs]

    17. RC

      I, I had brain freeze after two minutes.

    18. RE

      Right.

    19. RC

      I felt like I'd had, like, as a kid when you'd have that cold milkshake really fast and-

    20. RE

      Right

    21. RC

      ... I was, I was like, "How am I gonna do this event?"

    22. RE

      Yeah.

    23. RC

      "I, I just can't function at the moment."

    24. RE

      But the same, and did that coincide with your hyperventilating as well?

    25. RC

      Uh-

    26. RE

      So, like, gas reflex?

    27. RC

      Yeah, it must've done. I didn't know that happened. My partner told me afterwards really that I-

    28. RE

      Right

    29. RC

      ... so I didn't know it was happening. I just thought, "I don't feel comfortable here at all." But yeah, it, it, I think it must have coincided.

    30. RE

      Yeah, cold water shock, so you're absolutely right, and I think too often, again, you know, people, I, I've seen it time and again, like, in open water swimming and people jump in, and then they'll go, "I'm going, I, I, I've got hypothermia." I'm like, "N- you've been in 10 seconds. It's not hypothermia. That is just a gas reflex." And you can do certain things, that mammalian reflex where you put your face underwater, and it's something that all us mammals have, and it will slow your heart rate down, um, reduce blood pressure, start pulling, um, blood away from your, your extremities and sending it to your vital organs. These are physiological adaptations and, that we all have, but we're t- we're, we're just turning them off. I love what you said. Comfort does come at a cost. So when you are really warm, and you've got these big comfy shoes, and, you know, you're running in the gym, and you can control all of the environment, it's great. But you're now no longer working like Mother Nature intended. You know, you're not, you're not subjecting your body... To, to go off on a very slight tangent here, looking at, like, the work of Hans Selye.

  10. 21:12 – 26:45

    Sport as spiritual practice: Yamabushi monks, “okigaki,” and fear reframed as growth

    1. RE

      Right. Thank you, Rangan. [laughs] So, like, what you described there, this is gonna sound a bit weird, but it was over 10 years ago now, um, and this is what I wanted to ask you when you finished, but I've waited till the podcast to ask you. But I think, uh, I love what you talk about intrinsic motivation, so, so doing it so the process is its own reward. You didn't do it for medals and, and glory or anything today. The, the, the process itself was its, it was enough. That was its own reward. And I think 10 years ago now, I was fortunate enough to, um, live with the Yamabushi, uh, monks of Japan.

    2. RC

      Wow.

    3. RE

      Um, they go on what they call an Rokugaki, which is, uh, a pilgrimage where you run a marathon a day in, in the mountains. It's a mountain re- uh, religion, Shugendo, uh, religion. We do a, a, a mar- a marathon a day in the mountains, um, and then meditate under ice-cold waterfalls, um, for hours. And it's this idea of, of, of self-discovery through self-discipline. Now, when I was doing this, I think what I found so interesting is I, I, I turned to Kunyao, one of the, the chief monks, and I said to him, uh, "What's the record, uh, for the Rokugaki?" And, and he looked at me, and he was like... Uh, you know, I was 19. I was very young, very naive. I was an athlete as well, still competing, um, you know, swimming and playing water polo for Great Britain. And he, he just, like, laughed at me, and he was like, "No, no, no. There's no record for an Rokugaki." It's like saying, "What's the record for, you know, Christianity? What's the record for..." You know, like it doesn't, doesn't make sense. You know, so he laughed at me. He was just a bit like, "No, no, no. There's no competition when it comes to spirituality." And certainly what I've taken with me since, this idea of, like, sporting spirituality in many ways. That I think way back when you look at an Rokugaki, we've been doing it for hundreds of years, thousands of years. Us humans have been voluntarily exposing ourselves to hardship in other, i- in order to understand things about ourselves. Just this idea of, like, going and trekking a mountain a day just to re- refine the senses and focus the mind. You know, make you a little bit, you know, more, um, uh, you know, impervious to pain. You know, this idea. And I think one thing that I wanted to ask you since you finished this is do you feel in some ways that was your Rokugaki, like today?

    4. RC

      Absolutely. Um, you know, it, it's really hard to describe. You know, I'm a generally fit guy, okay? I, I don't do endurance, though. I go for short, sharp bursts.

    5. RE

      Mm.

    6. RC

      You know, I'll fit in a quick 10-minute workout here. I'll go for a quick, uh, if I'm writing and I, I haven't wrote a spot, I'll go for a quick 20-minute run.

    7. RE

      Mm.

    8. RC

      I don't go beyond that, right? So I'm, I'm generally fit, but I don't do endurance. So what's been panicking me all week is, um, A, the open water element. I thought I could probably with, I could get through the run. I thought, you know, I do 5Ks. Yeah, it might be tough, but at least I can breathe in the air when I'm not in open water. The open water stuff worried me 'cause I thought I've never done this before, so I don't know what it's going to be like. And, um, it's, it's, it's funny actually. I was, I, I couldn't sleep last night, really. I was, I was, I was actually, I think it was excitement, but also being scared. And I did a podcast recently with someone, and they were saying that actually you can reframe your stress response by thinking about it as excitement rather than fear. Um- I've actually listened to one of your podcasts, Ross, and, um, I've heard you say this phrase before where you say, um, you, you know, I think this is about the Great British Swim. I think you said, "I was..." Well, you would say, "It's about naiveté," right?

    9. RE

      The, "Oh, the naive enough to start, stubborn enough to finish." Absolutely.

    10. RC

      And I love that. And I was thinking about that, thinking, "Do you know what? That sounds like me. Naive enough." I don't know. You know, I was on the bus down to the start. Everyone's got their paddles, their hand paddles. They've got some equipment they're carrying with them, and I'm, I'm literally rocking up with my goggles and a swim hat, as if I'm going to my local pool for a swim.

    11. RE

      I love that. I love that though.

    12. RC

      And, and then I thought, "You know what? Maybe the fact that I don't know much about it is good." So I thought, when I was panicking, actually not when I was panicking, on the second swim, I remember thinking about that phrase, so I've got to thank you for getting me through.

    13. RE

      [laughs]

    14. RC

      I thought, "Naive enough to start, stubborn enough to finish." I am stubborn. I didn't want to, even though before I thought I was gonna pull out. I thought, "No, you're not gonna pull out. You're gonna use your mind. You can do this."

    15. RE

      Mm.

    16. RC

      Um, so I think it was, what, what's it called? Okigaki? Uh-

    17. RE

      Uh, okigaki. Yeah.

    18. RC

      Okigaki. I love that phrase. But that was for me-

    19. RE

      Yeah

    20. RC

      ... 100% because I've got a fear of the ocean.

    21. RE

      Yeah.

    22. RC

      Right? I love looking at it, but I didn't grow up around it. I don't live near the ocean.

    23. RE

      Mm.

    24. RC

      You know? I, uh, until a few years ago, I never actually got off a... You know, I'd never really probably been in the ocean.

    25. RE

      Mm.

    26. RC

      So I know that sounds ridiculous to some people, but for me, I, that was out with my comfort zone. So I feel, uh, I feel today was one of the most significant days of my entire life, if I'm honest.

    27. RE

      Mm. Mm.

    28. RC

      It feels that big to me.

    29. RE

      Absolutely, 100%. And but this is the thing. I think sometimes people see this idea of, um, you know, spiritual enlightenment through sport, and they're just kinda like, "Oh, is that some like fa-..." And it's like no. Like, i- it's accessible to everybody. And I love what you just said there as well because I think too often there's a little bit of a, a stigma attached or maybe a barrier to entry that you think, "Oh, I couldn't do that." You know, or, "Do we need, do you need the right kit? Do I need to have trained for that?" No. No, no, no. All you need is to be naive enough to start, stubborn enough to finish. So the very fact that you rocked up and you were like, "I feel like I'm going to my local swimming baths," I'm like, "Yes, amazing." Then that feels right. You know, and to finish it, I- I- I think that's one of the biggest takeaways I'd love if, if people took this away from the podcast, that it's, it's like, it's not... The Great British Swim was a- amazing. I'm, I'm so incredibly lucky to have, you know, experienced it. But it's the, the, the feeling that we're describing right now, this idea of anticipatory regulation, overcoming your central governor theory, Tim Noakes, you know, that this is accessible to all of us. You know, that next weekend everybody l- listening could say, "How far do I think I can run? I think I can do 5K." Cool, then go and do 10. And I guarantee if you finish it, you'll be eating your Sunday roast dinner thinking, "Wow, I'm ready to attack the week." You know?

  11. 26:45 – 29:07

    Getting started when you’re inactive: adherence, intrinsic motivation, and finding your own “okigaki”

    1. RC

      What about someone who's listening to this who is relatively inactive, right?

    2. RE

      Mm.

    3. RC

      So they live in a city. They, they wanna get healthier. They, they've started listening to this podcast for whatever reason, that they, they want some inspiration to get going. And so they think, "Well, there's no way I could do a swimrun. You know, I barely go out. I don't go to the gym. I don't do much." Where can they start, and how can they apply this in their life?

    4. RE

      Yeah. I think I love that question for two reasons. Number one is because I think too often, um, we are heavily marketed, uh, you know, the gym or certain sports, or, you know, they'll say, "Oh, this is the best way, way to, to lose weight." And it's just like, no, no, no, no. You have to start looking at behavioral science. You know, only just now we're understanding adherence. So do, are you actually going to adhere to this way of life? Um, again, uh, to go off on a slight tangent, International Journal of Obesity, 2008, they did a huge meta study, so a study of thousands of studies, and they wanted to know what the best diet was for fat loss. Everyone was sitting there going, "Well, this is amazing." They were, you know, on the edge of their seats thinking, "Oh, my God. Is it keto? Is it Atkins? Is it South Beach? What is it?" And they said, "After analyzing all of these studies, we have found," and everyone's on the tense hooks on the edge of their seats, "that we have found that weight loss was highest in those most adherent." And they went, "What?" And they were like, "Yeah, yeah, yeah. The diet doesn't matter. Sticking to it does." And they were like, "Oh." So there was this idea that, okay, so in terms of when you are completely sedentary and you're just setting out, whether it's a diet plan or a workout plan, look at adherence. Are you actually gonna enjoy this? Is this your okigaki? Are you gonna be motivated for intrinsic reasons? Or are you saying, "I wanna do a triathlon" because you get a nice medal at the end? Gr. That's probably not the right answer. Do you know what I mean? Pick something that you intrinsically like. What's your okigaki? What are you gonna be able to adhere to? I think for some people, if they're like, "I used to play tennis as a kid. I've not done it in ages," cool. Then go down your local tennis club. "I used to, I used to swim, but I've not done it in ages," cool. Then dust off those goggles and get in.

    5. RC

      You know, I spoke to Vassos Alexander, um-

    6. RE

      Oh, legend

    7. RC

      ... about, about, I don't know, nine months ago or something. We, we had a fantastic chat. And he told me, I think, again, I might be slightly wrong with the age, but it was about at the age of 29, he went for a jog, and he couldn't get to the end of his street without feeling out of breath.

    8. RE

      Wow.

    9. RC

      And literally within about two or three years, he's doing some ultramarathon in Greece. And I thought that was inspiring to go, hey, guys, it doesn't matter where you are. It doesn't matter where you start. Just start somewhere.

    10. RE

      Mm.

    11. RC

      Um, a- and, and just build from there.

    12. RE

      Yeah.

  12. 29:07 – 37:06

    Intrinsic vs extrinsic motivation in a social-media world—and why both show up in real endurance

    1. RC

      I really wanna... You know, I love intrinsic versus extrinsic motivation. Perhaps first question is perhaps you could explain what those things are for people listening who may not be familiar with those terms. But the second question is, in this era of social media where everything we do is documented on social media, and for many people if it's not documented on social media, it almost doesn't exist, are we in danger of doing things for extrinsic motivation rather than intrinsic motivation? Or is there even some benefit in that? 'Cause even if that is gonna stimulate you and inspire you to do something, it's better than nothing.

    2. RE

      Yeah. I think you're absolutely right. So in terms of intrinsic motivation, intrinsic motivation is when you are motivated for internal reasons, so the, the process is its own reward. When people say, "Why are you..." It could be anything. "Why are you knitting? Why, why do you like going walking in, like, the countryside?" You go, "'Cause it just feels nice." That is intrinsic. Extrinsic motivation is, "Why do you wanna go and do that triathlon?" And they say, "'Cause there's prize money." [laughs] "Why do you wanna go and, uh, run up that mountain?" "Oh, 'cause I wanna take a selfie at the top. I want it for my Instagram profile." Nothing wrong with that, but these are extrinsic motivating factors. And I think consciously understanding which one motivates you is, is often the first key. I think, you know, subconsciously people aren't actually, y- you know, they're not aware of it. You know? So they are just, they're just training, they're plowing on. It's just like, well, hang on, like w- w- what's the motivating factor here? Reason being, and there was again, a, a study done with the US military, and they found that those... It was a huge study, and they found that those who were intrinsically motivated, there was a direct correlation between that and them higher achieving within the ranks of the US military compared to those for external reasons who were maybe saying, "Oh, it's good money," uh, you know, or, "I, I look good in a uniform." [laughs] You know, there, there was those people who intrinsically motivated were saying, "Because I, I, I just want to do s- I want to serve my country. I wanna... You know, my, my great-great-grandad was in the military." It was, it was those sorts of reasons, um, that they-

    3. RC

      Do, do, do, do we know if there's a genetic predisposition to that? Or is it something we can train? Like, you know, are, are some of us more driven by that intrinsic motivation, some external? And if we are more external, do you know... I, I don't know if you know the, know the science on this. Can, can we train ourselves to be intrinsically motivated?

    4. RE

      That's... Do you know what? That is a brilliant question just because they say training is the realization of one's genetic potential. And so you can see right now l- lining up on the start line, okay, you know, he is genetically predisposed to strength training. He's good at endurance. Yes, we, we know that. But what we're describing, talking about now is so many intangibles. It's like, does he ha- have a genetic predisposition to be good at resilience? Does he have a genetic, uh, predisposition to be intrinsically motivated? It's like, we, we don't know. But this huge gray area is where there is, like, complete untapped resource. You know? So, and, and I think the only thing is, is if you start looking... I'm, I'm a huge fan of Ralph Waldo Emerson who, you know, preached, um, this idea of, you know, self-empowerment and, and really, like, that you are your own best expert. You know, I love what you do. I love what you broadcast. But the reason that I love your podcast so much, Rangan, is because you actually empower people to make the decisions themselves. It's like if you, to use a swimming analogy, you know, quite often when you're going to see an, a, a doctor, uh, you need a lifeguard. But what you're doing is actually equipping people with the swimming lessons, you know, before. You're their swim coach in some ways so they... Prevention is better than cure.

    5. RC

      Uh, well, I, I mean, that's just, I mean, I, as, as I say in the, in the intro, you know, I'm trying to empower every listener to be the architect of their own health. Yeah, I don't want, I don't want people to do things 'cause you told them to or I told them to. In fact, I don't think we're telling anyone what to do. We're having a conversation. I hope people feel inspired to... You know, I hope someone listens to this and goes, "You know what? Let me just examine the things that I do in my life. How many of them would I be happy doing-

    6. RE

      Mm

    7. RC

      ... if I didn't post about them on social media? Would I still do it?"

    8. RE

      You're right. And no one's, no one else can answer that. There, there's, there's not an expert that can tell you the answer to that other than yourself. So you're absolutely right that I think all we can do is equip people with, you know, the, the definitions of extrinsic, intrinsic motivation so they can actually understand. But you're right. And I think all of these intangibles, you don't know. You can only empower people. But y- but I would love it if in a month's time people take to social media and say to us, "I found my ikigai. I'm doing this for intrinsic reasons." You know? And I'll be like, "That's amazing."

    9. RC

      Guys, guys, that is a challenge after this.

    10. RE

      Mm-hmm.

    11. RC

      I mean, you know, we've still got a long way to go I hope in this conversation.

    12. RE

      [laughs]

    13. RC

      But you must, that, I mean, please think about that. And people like Ross and I know on social media, we would love to. And we're not anti-social media. Both of us are active.

    14. RE

      No. Yeah.

    15. RC

      Right? And there's nothing wrong with posting about what you're doing.

    16. RE

      Nope.

    17. RC

      We're trying to just tap into what is your motivation.

    18. RE

      Mm.

    19. RC

      Is that the only motivation, or is there something else?

    20. RE

      I love what you said there, actually, because certainly on the, the swim, people said to me, you know, "Swimming for 157 days, 12 hours a day, you know, how did you keep yourself, uh, motivated?" And I think a lot of people just wanted that one line where I'd say, "I did it for family and friends," you know, or something like that. But the reality is you had to switch to have almost, you know, like a split personality in that sometimes I'd be extrinsically motivated. When coming into the Kyler Lochalsh, it was amazing. We, we just set the record for the world's longest stage swim. Um, the media were there. Y- they said some very nice things about me. I would be lying to you right now if I didn't said that didn't motivate me extrinsically. Of course it did. You know, there was also, you know, coming in at the, at the end of the swim knowing, uh, being told that I, I had a trident created for me. I was like, "Well, that's pretty cool." You know? [laughs]

    21. RC

      Was that the trident I saw before?

    22. RE

      It was. It was. [laughs]

    23. RC

      Oh, I've seen the trident.

    24. RE

      So there was these reasons that I was like, yeah, absolutely. However, in those moments across the Moray Firth where you are 60 miles from land, you cannot see the hand in front of your face, it's that dark. You're getting, like, just hit in the face by jellyfish. Extrinsic motivation probably isn't enough. Exactly the same as you today, that when you were there hyperventilating, everything, eh, you know, extrinsic motivation, it probably wouldn't have been enough to see you-

    25. RC

      No

    26. RE

      ... all the way through. Someone couldn't have just constantly gone, "Oh, but you'll get a medal at the end." You're like-

    27. RC

      I'd be like, "I don't care about the medal" [laughs]

    28. RE

      "I don't care about the medal." However, if I'd have said, "Oh, Rangan, uh, just, just to let you know, there's no medal at the end but, but your kids are watching," I guarantee you would've sprinted. So now knowing what pushes your buttons and what intrinsically motivates you is very powerful, and you just need to do that yourself as well. And I think knowing how to, to ask yourself, push your own buttons. You know, what's motivating me today? You know, but, but to, to, to just sort of sum up on that as well, 'cause this might be something that a lot of people, um, can relate to. But I think even, uh, body composition, body fat, you know, training purely for aesthetics. So in this kind of social media driven, uh, you know, world that we now live in, there's a lot of people who will, um, you know, train just for that selfie on the beach. And there's nothing wrong with that, but you've got to acknowledge that's purely extrinsic. So once that picture's been taken, what's left? Are you still motivated?

    29. RC

      Yeah.

    30. RE

      If you have things that are intrinsically motivating you, for, for me, for instance, I like to keep my body fat quite low just because, um, I'm quite a chunky runner, and I don't want to be putting four to five times my own body weight through each foot with every successive jump and run. So I try and keep lean for that reason. But- Uh, the, the reason I also do that as well is because I want to enjoy running. I like the intrinsic feeling of running, and I wouldn't enjoy that as much if I was holding a lot of weight.

  13. 37:06 – 1:03:18

    Inside the Great British Swim: calories, chafing, polluted water, and staying healthy at sea

    1. RC

      Um, let's, let's really dive deep into this swim you did, because, you know, as someone who hadn't been in open water before today to swim, I just find that insane that you swam around the UK. So what does that look like in real life? Okay, you, you, you wanna swim around this island.

    2. RE

      Yeah.

    3. RC

      What are you wearing? Where are you sleeping? What are you eating? What happens when you're knackered and you're in the middle of the water? I mean, d- tell me about it. What, what, you know, what, what-

    4. RE

      Yeah.

    5. RC

      Yeah. Teach me. What happens?

    6. RE

      Um, yeah. Do you know what? I'm glad you asked that. Just holistically to talk about it, really, only because, um, yeah, I, I, I'm honestly not self-deprecating when I say I, I, it wasn't a swim. I just got really good at floating and eating. You know, so really it was just about, you know, 10,000, 15,000 calories, you know, per day, you know, trying to manage wounds and chafing, um, trying to manage your immune system, you know, when s- swimming through, you know, shipping lanes. We were look, looking at, you know, gut bacteria, every- We really tried to drill down into the-

    7. RC

      But how, how do you manage it? You say you want to manage your immune system. How?

    8. RE

      And this is what got weird, that I think for everything, and you'll understand this, you know, far better than myself and, and most other people, but for everything that we were trying to treat, um, we didn't know. So when we were looking at gut bacteria, or when we were speaking to, uh, medical professionals, they were saying, "Oh, we, I mean, we, we can treat you if we know what you're digesting and what's in those shipping lanes and polluted water, but we don't know what we're treating, so we can't really look to preempt that."

    9. RC

      Was, was it pretty gross at times?

    10. RE

      Oh, like, yeah. R- I mean, like [laughs] it was-

    11. RC

      Yeah, go on. [laughs]

    12. RE

      Yeah. No, it got, like... But I, do you know what? And again, this comes back to something that's slightly weird. So I do a lot of work with, uh, Wim Hof. Um, so Wim Hof is-

    13. RC

      I love his stuff.

    14. RE

      Oh, God. Again, you know, v- reminds me very much of yourself, though. He's just trying to empower people with the tools that they need. But so Wim Hof, for those who don't know, um, you know, turned around, uh, to, to modern medicine and said, "I can control my immune system."

    15. RC

      Yeah, incredible.

    16. RE

      And, and they were like, "No, you know, you can't. It's your autoimmune system. You, you don't have control over it." He said, "No, no, no, I can." Uh, and then there was a study, you know, widely publicized, basically injected him with quite a violent virus and, and, and several other test subjects, uh, all of them signs of vomiting, diarrhea. Wim, absolutely fine. And not only that, now he's shown that you can pass that on and he can teach other people-

    17. RC

      Yeah

    18. RE

      ... to control their immune system. So I did a lot of work with Wim before I left, and I think one thing that was probably overlooked, and again, now objectively we understand, cold therapy, you know, cold water therapy has been shown to actually increase, you know, white T-cells. It's been shown objectively to a small but significant amount. So I think one thing that was really weird is throughout the 157 days is I wasn't ill. I didn't take a single day off sick. But that makes no sense when you start looking at it in terms of, you know, conventional wisdom. That they're like, "Hang on, you're s- so you're swimming through shipping lanes. You're swimming-"

    19. RC

      And sewage and-

    20. RE

      Sewage. Oh, yeah, like toxins from the jellyfish. That makes no sense. But it's like, hmm, is it? Or could you argue that I was at sea doing cold water therapy, you know, for hours a day, tapping into this powerful primitive state where over 157 days I became like Han Selves' indestructible lab rats. And it was this complete-

    21. RC

      Yeah, I mean-

    22. RE

      ... expe- sea experiment that I never intended. But looking back now, I was like, yeah, that is a bit weird that I wasn't ill.

    23. RC

      Yeah, you're right. I mean, o- you, y- so many levels it's mad that you weren't ill.

    24. RE

      Mm.

    25. RC

      You weren't taking prophylactic antibiotics or anything. Nothing.

    26. RE

      Yeah, it's exactly it. Even looking at pacing strategies as well. So we know, you know, anecdotally and objectively, everyone that experienced this, if you go and do a, a huge week's training and you're there, like, swimming in lactic acid, you need a recovery day. Your, your muscles are sore, you've got DOMS, delayed onset muscle soreness, and your body's just in pieces. Your central nervous system is going, "What are you doing?" Adrenal fatigue, everything. That is fi... But that, but that will directly impact on your immune system. Whereas with me, it was trying to manage that throughout the entire swim. So whenever I could just maintain that aerobic state where I'm not breathing heavy and I can supply enough oxygen to the body to maintain this aerobic state, I knew that if I could maintain that, that prevention was better than cure. I love what you just said there, because it's like, absolutely. When I'm starting to take medication, it might be too late. I need to actually prevent myself getting ill to that point.

    27. RC

      So, so you were doing cold water therapy by default-

    28. RE

      Yeah. [laughs]

    29. RC

      ... rather than thinking about, "Oh, I'm gonna have one minute at the end of my hot shower-

    30. RE

      Yeah

  14. 1:03:18 – 1:08:30

    Resilience under extreme fatigue: non-negotiable rules, team support, and “perform when you feel worst”

    1. RC

      Well, I mean, were there days where you thought, "I'm, I'm, I'm not going in there. I just can't do it. I just wanna stay here. I wanna sleep. I, I just can't get in the water"?

    2. RE

      Yeah. Ab- uh, absolutely. And that was, for me, every single tide, that idea of central governor theory, you know, that we're more powerful than our own mind allows us to, to believe. My mind was playing all sorts of tricks on me saying, "Stay in bed. Have a rest day today, Ross. Oh."

    3. RC

      So how did you motivate yourself? Did, was it you, or was there someone at w- sometimes was it your team? Did some of them say, "Come on, Ross, you can do this. You've got this"? I mean, w- w- w- how did that g- g- go down, basically?

    4. RE

      Yeah. I think for, one of the things that always worked for me was the fact that I said, "I am not stepping foot on land until I have finished this." And I, I was absolutely like, that is, there's n- that's s- not negotiating-

    5. RC

      Stub- naive enough to start-

    6. RE

      Yeah

    7. RC

      ... stubborn enough to finish.

    8. RE

      Rangan, absolutely.

    9. RC

      [laughs]

    10. RE

      Absolutely. So then when you have made that, like, absolutely infallible law, and you've said, "There, that's how this finishes. It finishes with me being pulled out of the water against my own will, or I walk onto Margate Beach successful," then any question you ask yourself, that when your mind starts playing tricks and goes, "Maybe you should have a rest day today. Maybe your tongue's falling apart. Maybe you should miss this tide. Uh, oh, may- maybe it's a little bit ropey outside. We're swimming in 40 knots of wind. Is that safe?" The answer's always swim. Always. Because ultimately you're not gonna get back to Margate otherwise. You know?

    11. RC

      Yeah.

    12. RE

      So that, that for me, it was like every question that was thrown up was completely irrelevant when you think about it in cold, hard logic.

    13. RC

      Yeah.

    14. RE

      And I think that's sometimes the same, that again, when you wake up in the morning on a Sunday and you've said, "Oh, I said I was gonna go in for a run today, but oh, whoa. I think, oh, my, you know, my knees are feeling a little... Oh, yeah, knees are bad. Oh, maybe I should rest today. I should have another rest day."

    15. RC

      Yeah.

    16. RE

      It's like, "No, no, no, no, no." Again, i- this idea of that I was fortunate enough to learn from the Royal Marines that they said, "Ross, um, you know, when you are i- in a 30-mile yomp with, like, 50 kg on your backpack, um, you know, your cognitive clarity is, is that of a five-year-old." You know, so it goes back to that Maslow's hierarchy of needs.

    17. RC

      Wow.

    18. RE

      Yeah. That you, uh, you know, if today for instance, we're having a very eloquent conversation right now. If I'd have asked you when you were hyperventilating in your suit and going, "Oh, Rangan, can you explain to me, uh, about my immune system or what?"

    19. RC

      [laughs]

    20. RE

      You'd have been like, "No." [laughs] Like...

    21. RC

      [laughs]

    22. RE

      So it's this idea of, again, making peace with the fact that when you are sleep-deprived, tired, had a hard week at work, and all of a sudden someone's saying to you, "Remember that session you said you were gonna do on Sunday?" Know that it's fine, that you are functioning with the cognitive clarity of a five-year-old. You know?

    23. RC

      Yeah.

    24. RE

      And, and, and this was one thing that always stuck me with, with the Royal Marines. Um, as a sports scientist, uh, they said, "Ross, you're a sports scientist, so you are used to performing at your best when you feel at your best. We're Royal Marines. We're used to performing at our best when we feel at our worst." And that always stuck with me, because I think throughout life now, that right now, yeah, when you're hyperventilating, you know, and suddenly going, "I could go Rangan. Have you got the right footwear on? Have you got the right wetsuit?" You know, it's like, well, no, I'm not performing at my best and I don't feel at my best. But be like a Royal Marine. Perform at your best when you feel at your worst. You turned up, you know, with your goggles on thinking you were going for a Sunday walk. It doesn't matter. You did it. You performed at your best when you were feeling at your worst, and you were probably equipped with your worst as well.

    25. RC

      I was. Well, gi- given that I was getting my wetsuit out of its wrapper this morning-

    26. RE

      [laughs]

    27. RC

      ... and, and the goggles out of its case, I was thinking-

    28. RE

      Yeah

    29. RC

      ... I was thinking, "Rangan, you probably should have worn this once to check it fit. You probably should have put the goggles on in water to check they're the right size for you." And then on the bus I thought, "Well, too late now, isn't it?"

    30. RE

      [laughs] It is.

  15. 1:08:30 – 1:11:41

    Ethical athletics, nature connection, and why environment shapes motivation

    1. RC

      ... um, one thing that struck me today is, you know, we're sitting here in this Vvagon here, and one of its three principles is about sustainability, right? So it's powered by solar panels. It's made of wood. It's got these beautiful plants in it. Do you think that one of the reasons why we're struggling with the environment as a society at the moment, so obviously there's a big push now to be more environmentally aware in everything we're doing, do you think that comes from the fact that we've become disconnected from nature? Because I was thinking today as I was running, when I wasn't panicking, when I was actually in those moments and, and looking and thinking, "Is this really the UK? This feels like the Maldives or something." It's just absolutely incredible looking out. I thought, if people experience this regularly, would that not automatically mean that they wanna look after nature more, look after the world a little bit more? I mean, have you thought that before?

    2. RE

      Yeah. I, uh, it's weird. I, today I said, the only way I can describe today is like, um, ethical athletics. And what I mean by that is just this idea of, uh, it was quite sad, there was those haunting images of the London Marathon this year, and afterwards you saw plastic bottles and Energels and everything all around the streets. And it was like we were trying to shoehorn an event, you know, into an environment, and it didn't work. Whereas what we've seen, you know, certainly this weekend, is instead we've said, "This is the environment. Let's create an event around it."

    3. RC

      Yeah.

    4. RE

      We've not changed the course.

    5. RC

      No.

    6. RE

      We've just swum around headlands. We've let the coastline dictate the course. And I think you're absolutely right. That for me, this idea of ethical athletics, it also, again, to, to sum up as, as a central theme to this talk, it's, you know, that's your okugaki. That is what the Yamabushi monks, it is a mountain religion, that they believe that this idea of self-discipline, uh, self-discovery through self-discipline, comes from the mountains. And I think it's exactly the same here, that what we've done today is an okugaki, and I think more and more people can get back to that. So when you are intrinsically motivated to find an event, I love what you've added there, try and make sure as a third that it's within an environment that resonates within you, that it's like, "I can't explain it, but Devon is like this spiritual home." Then cool, go there.

    7. RC

      Yeah.

    8. RE

      But other people, friends of mine are like, they, they've never felt more alive when they are hurtling, you know, 20 miles per hour down a cliff face and they're fell running, and they just love the fells and they're like, "Oh, feel the wind in your hair." And I'm like, "Oh, God, I'm cold." [laughs] You know-

    9. RC

      Yeah

    10. RE

      ... so it's this. But for them, they get it. And again, it's an intangible.

    11. RC

      It's an int-

    12. RE

      But I hope people, yeah, empower themselves to ask.

    13. RC

      Reminds me, I spoke to Kilian Jornet just a few weeks ago on the podcast-

    14. RE

      Oh, wow

    15. RC

      ... and, uh, it was just amazing to just hear his story. And for him, he, he just seems one of the most humble guys I've ever met. He just, he just does it... It's, it's, it's his, it's his pilgrimage, you know?

    16. RE

      Yes.

    17. RC

      It's his thing. He's not doing it for anyone else.

    18. RE

      No.

    19. RC

      He's doing it 'cause it, it makes him feel alive. He learns about himself while he's doing it.

    20. RE

      Kilian's an amazing example, actually. Uh, he is, he is a running Yamabushi, whether he realizes, you know, he is that Yamabushi monk.

    21. RC

      Yeah.

    22. RE

      If you ask him and you say, "You're gonna do all this, but there's gonna be no medals," he'll go, "That's not why I'm doing it." [laughs]

    23. RC

      He's not why... And I, I mean, and really that's what struck me. He had this single-minded dedication to living the life that he wants to live.

    24. RE

      Mm.

    25. RC

      And I thought, wow, we can all learn from that.

    26. RE

      Mm.

    27. RC

      Ross, look, let, we're gonna have to wrap this up.

    28. RE

      [laughs]

  16. 1:11:41 – 1:14:47

    Ross’s next project: ‘The Art of Resilience’ and closing takeaways about finding your own challenge

    1. RC

      Um, you're writing a new book. Quick summary, what's it about?

    2. RE

      I am, yeah. So we've got, uh, The Art of Resilience. I think the, The World's Fittest Book was amazing. Um, I, I called it that. I probably should point out that, you know, that is not me saying it, "I am the world's fittest" or anything. It was more a testament to, you know, the, the, this melting pot of geniuses. So, you know, Lynford Christie helped me write the speed chapter, Jeff Capes, two-time world's strongest man.

    3. RC

      Oh, wow.

    4. RE

      Andy Bolton, first guy to deadlift 1,000 pounds. You know, all of these guys, the Cambridge rowing team. So it was, it, I called it The World's Fittest Book because I believe, you know, some of the world's fittest people, who I was just fortunate enough to learn from-

    5. RC

      Yeah

    6. RE

      ... helped me write it. Um, that deals a lot with the physicality of, of training, how you could basically, like a, a, an almost like operating system for the body to say, "Okay, hang on. Right, how are we gonna get from A to B? How are we gonna become faster, stronger, leaner, quicker?" Um, but I think the new book, The Art of Resilience, uh, has really come around because a lot of people wanted me to talk about the, uh, the mental aspect, mental fortitude, you know, resilience, the intangibles that we've covered, you know, on this podcast really, that I really now wanna make sense of. So I am... This has been nice. This has been like therapy. But for me-

    7. RC

      For me as well.

    8. RE

      [laughs] So I've deconstructed and reverse engineered the Great British Swim. I've locked myself in a room for what's been months now, and I tried to make s-

    9. RC

      Writing

    10. RE

      ... yeah.

    11. RC

      I know that feeling. [laughs]

    12. RE

      To just, you're right, to try and fuse whatever, how, how did I do it? And it's looking at, uh, theories in sports science and fusing it with philosophies of stoic, ancient philosophy.

    13. RC

      Oh, wow, I can't wait. So when did, when's it, when's it due out?

    14. RE

      Uh, May. Yeah.

    15. RC

      May.

    16. RE

      So May next year.

    17. RC

      May, May, May 2020.

    18. RE

      That's right, yeah. Yeah.

    19. RC

      Yeah, well, maybe, maybe, depending on how this one goes, if you're interested, we could maybe have another conversation-

    20. RE

      100%

    21. RC

      ... about that-

    22. RE

      100%

    23. RC

      ... and, uh, put it out when, when the new book is out. But Ross, look, I can't thank you enough for making some time to talk to me today.

    24. RE

      Oh, yeah.

    25. RC

      I think you're an incredibly inspirational guy. I think there are so many take homes for people from this podcast. It's called Feel Better, Live More. I believe that when people feel better in themselves, they get more out of their lives. We've covered a lot of take home tips today, but I wonder if you could just summarize at the end three or four of your top tips for the listeners to inspire them to believe that they can be the architects of their own health.

    26. RE

      Yeah, I love that. I think, I, I've loved how this is centered around I hope that people can take away to find their own okugaki, that they will be intrinsically motivated to pursue. And like I said, I would love it if in a few weeks, months, a year, it doesn't matter, if people message us on social media and say, "Do you know what, guys? I did it, intrinsically motivated, and it just, for cathartic reasons," for this idea of sporting spirituality, that people will go, "I did it. I ran, swam, cycled, rowed." Doesn't matter what it is, but do that for your own okugaki, your own sort of self-discipline, um, for self-discovery. That, that, that would be amazing.

    27. RC

      Wow. Inspiring way to finish the podcast.

    28. RE

      [laughs]

    29. RC

      Ross, thank you so much, and, uh, we'll see you next time.

    30. RE

      Bless you. Thank you so much, mate. [outro music]

Episode duration: 1:14:47

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