Why You Feel Insecure in Relationships (And It’s NOT Your Fault) | Dr. Amir Levine

1. 0:00 – 0:08

   What a “secure life” means: attachment as emotional regulation

   1. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee0:00

      What is a secure life, and why are you so confident that we can all live one at any stage in life?

2. 0:08 – 2:30

   The Strange Situation: how secure, anxious, and avoidant patterns first appear

   1. ALDr. Amir Levine0:08

      So the idea of a secure life really comes from attachment theory. Um, it was Mary Ainsworth who first discovered the three attachment styles: anxious, avoidant, and secure. She did an experiment called a strange situation test, where you have the, the child come with a, with a mother, typically a, a toddler, to a room full of toys, and they get so excited and start pointing at toys and playing. And then they tell the, the caregiver to leave the room. And immediately they drop... You can watch it on Y- on, like, on YouTube. They have so many of them. They just literally just drop what they have. [laughs] They don't care. They just start crying, banging on the door. You'll try to interest them with a toy, they'll throw it in your face until they ask the caregiver to come back. And it's in that moment when, during the reunion, that she recognizes three attachment styles, anxious, avoidant, and secure, and it all has to do with how good the bond is in helping the child, uh, regulate their emotions and affect. So in a secure child, they, uh, immediately calm down. The, the caregiver embraces them, they immediately calm down, and then they start pointing at the toys, wanting to play again. The anxious attachment, it's very hard to calm them down. They calm down for a few minutes, start crying again. So it's just, like, harder for them to use the bond to regulate their affect. And, uh, the avoidant, they either don't cry even that much, or they, when the mother or the caregiver li- uh, uh, hugs them, they kind of stay limp. Um, but inside, when you look at research, their blood pressure is through the roof, and so they kind of, like, block it, but they're also not as good as utilizing the bond to regulate their affect. So then later studies discovered that we have those same attachment styles in adulthood. Uh, Hazan and Shaver first discovered that in roma- in the context of roman- romantic relationships. So basically, we use our relationships, and now I would argue even beyond that, to regulate our affect. So if we want to create a secure life, it basically talks about how do we go about making sure that our relationships, the ones that we create, are actually good in, uh, helping us, uh, calm down and feel supported rather than the opposite.

3. 2:30 – 4:07

   Hope and the benefits of security: health, resilience, and less manipulation

   1. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee2:30

      It's such an interesting topic, and I guess one of the key things I got from reading your book is hope. There's a continuous theme of empowerment with you basically telling the reader that it doesn't matter, to a degree, your attachment style or what's happened in your past. It is still possible to live, you know, what you call a secure life. And you make the very strong case in the book that when we're living a secure life, we're healthier. We have better relationships. When we're sick, we have fewer symptoms. We're less susceptible to consumerism. We can navigate social media better. All of these benefits, which made me think when we truly feel secure in who we are and that we don't have to achieve in order to be worthy, let's say, then we go around the world almost with a resilient bubble around us. You know, this whole thing that we're less susceptible to consumerism, it makes so much sense to me because advertising only works, really, or most of modern advertising only works when you feel insecure because it's all designed to hit that Achilles heel in you. Whereas if you actually feel secure, it's like, "Yeah, I, I don't know why they're trying to sell me that. I, I don't need that."

   2. ALDr. Amir Levine4:00

      [laughs]

   3. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee4:00

      "I don't, I don't have a hole in my heart that needs filling with that." It, it's, it's, it's very empowering, isn't it?

4. 4:07 – 6:21

   Why Levine wrote “Attached” and how neuroscience led to “Secure”

   1. ALDr. Amir Levine4:07

      Yeah, I think so. You know, once I was in the New York City subway, and I saw an ad saying, "Self-help books help, uh, one person, the writer." And I looked at it and I said, "That's not entirely wrong." I mean, a lot of the stuff that I write, it definitely helped me, helped my patients, and helped my immediate circle. And the way it came about is, you know, I wrote this book, it's called Attached, 15 years ago, and when I w- I wrote it with my childhood friend. Basically, I was, like, um, I was going through a break-up at the time, and that's where I came across these attachment styles in adulthood, and I didn't... We never learned about it in, I never learned about it in medical school or in my psychiatry residency. We never really used those attachment styles in, in learning how to do treatment and therapy with people. Uh, so it was such a revelation, and I remember calling my friend Rachel, and was like, "Oh my God, this is so helpful," because it explained to me so much about the break-up and what went on in that relationship and the different attachment styles and how we respond in adulthood. And so we decided, instead of, like, you know, the way that one does when you go through a break-up and you talk about it endlessly, we decided to actually use that energy to write this book about these attachment styles. Um, and we'd always had this running joke that it's only gonna sell one copy to the Library of Congress 'cause we just wrote it to ourselves. Uh, and then it kind of, like, took a life of its own because I guess the same concepts that helped me so much, we were able to translate it into something that will help others. But then people came to me in therapy, and they asked me, "Okay, now I want to become more secure. How do I become more secure?" And I didn't have an immediate answer to that. And I actually found the answer in a way that I least expected it. I'm also a molecular neuroscientist, and I study the molecular mechanism of emotional memories, and I find myself in therapy with my patients sort of veering off the usual therapeutic techniques and starting to explain to them about the brain and how the brain works, because if you think about it, it's really, that's our motherboard. That's what dictates how we respond-

   2. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee6:10

      Mm

   3. ALDr. Amir Levine6:10

      ... to things and how we, if we understand that, we can really, uh, find a way to become more secure, and I can give you a few examples of how that works, really.

   4. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee6:20

      Yeah.

   5. ALDr. Amir Levine6:20

      And so, yeah.

5. 6:21 – 10:38

   Attachment styles aren’t diseases—and childhood doesn’t explain as much as we think

   1. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee6:21

      Uh, there's a, there's a bit towards the end of the book which I really liked, which kind of resonated with-The way I often view the human body a- and human health, you, you say, "One of the reasons that I'm drawn towards attachment science is that it's not based on the medical model of fixing pathologies, but rather on normal behavior traits that are common in everyone. The question then becomes not whether a particular trait or way of looking at things is sick or healthy, but rather is it effective or ineffective? In other words, is it working for you in your life or not, and if not, how can it be changed?"

   2. ALDr. Amir Levine7:09

      I love that you read that sentence because it really, it rings so true, and it's so important, but people are so used to looking at themselves from the medical model that now there's a whole... If you look online about adult attachment styles, it's all, uh, uh, it's all about they sort of veer it back into the medical model. Heal your anxious attachment style. Heal your avoidant attachment style. But it's not a sickness. Having... It's, it's a, it's a variation in the population. It's very, very important to understand it from the get-go. These are variations on the, on the norm. I think a- around 50-something percent are secure, which is such good news, g- and you'll see soon why.

   3. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee7:47

      So 50% of the adult population-

   4. ALDr. Amir Levine7:49

      The majority of population are secure. I know it's hard to believe. 25% are avoidant. Around 20% are, uh, anxious, and very few are fearful avoidant. So it's a variation on the norm, like, like, like I told you, like being tall or short.

   5. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee8:04

      So, so is it genetic then? Is it something we're born with? Or, you know, 'cause a lot of us would say that, and I know you kind of address this towards the end of the book about causation and where it's very hard to prove where this stuff comes from or whether it was your childhood trauma that led to you having a certain attachment style. But what do you think, based upon your reading of the research? Is it genetic, or is it a combination of genes plus environment, particularly when we're children?

   6. ALDr. Amir Levine8:32

      I think not even when we're children. That's kinda like, that's the case that I'm trying to make in the book. It's we are so, such deeply social creatures, and really, our ability to collaborate with others is our superpower as, as a species. I mean, if you think about it, we're not particularly strong animals.

   7. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee8:52

      Mm-hmm.

   8. ALDr. Amir Levine8:52

      Uh, we're very vulnerable, but yet we can live in the North Pole. We can go to, we can make it to the moon, all because... And we rose up, and we, we're not in the middle of the food chain anymore. We're kinda like the top of the food chain. We did all that because of our ability to collaborate and form really cohesive societies. So our brain is really adapt. It, it wouldn't make sense that we would fix it on a certain way in childhood and then remain the same through the rest of our lives. We are so much more, um, adaptable socially than people let, like are led to believe, and that's part of this whole message in the book. And I actually use that in order to help the people become more secure. And so in, in childhood, we can actually form several different models of attachment because it's not only the mother or the father that we form attachments to, and then later on in life also. Attachment basically in childhood explains, it's a correlation coefficient of .2 to .3, which means that, like 90, around 95% of adult attachment cannot be explained by childhood attachment.

   9. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee10:02

      Really?

   10. ALDr. Amir Levine10:02

       Yes, and that's what the f- that's what the findings show, basically.

   11. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee10:05

       Well, that really surprises me.

   12. ALDr. Amir Levine10:07

       It does, because it doesn't surprise me 'cause that's the research, but people have a hard time accepting that. But I find it hopeful because it means that we are so, we, there's so much potential for change.

   13. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee10:20

       Well, that, that message of hope is something I'm gonna keep reiterating because that's the big, big message I got from reading your book, and even to the degree that later on you, you sort of made the case that it's not always necessary to excavate our past.

6. 10:38 – 17:07

   Causality myths, memory reconsolidation, and reinterpreting the past safely

   1. ALDr. Amir Levine10:38

      Right. So that's why, that's wh- that's the point that I love about that whole... 'Cause attachment, the whole, this whole s- uh, adult attachment, the science, it doesn't come from the medical, uh, research. It comes from social psychology and also from developmental psychology. So the whole preface of what's, uh, sick or not sick is not there. But I have to say, I mean, about, like childhood memories, there's a whole chapter in the book about causality.

   2. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee11:02

      Yeah.

   3. ALDr. Amir Levine11:02

      And as a scientist, to establish causa- uh, for sci- for scientists, causality is the holy grail. It's, like they're so hard to, to sort of, to discover and find, and sometimes even one molecule you think is doing one thing, and then you discover that it's completely, it's y- it's really, really hard to establish causality. Yet in, in, uh, in treatment and in psychology, we often say, "Oh, because this and this happened to you in childhood, then now you're this way." But I've, like even when you look in behaviors in mice that are all genetically identical, and let's say you expose them-

   4. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee11:37

      Mm-hmm

   5. ALDr. Amir Levine11:37

      ... like in adolescence, like in early childhood to a bully, uh, a part of them will become really depressed and anxious later in life, and some of them will show complete resilience. You wouldn't even tell what happened to them. So it's very, very hard to establish causality.

   6. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee11:51

      Yeah. That's the thing with stress though, isn't it? Right? Because if you think about it, or the way I think about it, you can't really say that X or Y is a stressful event because, you know, that event will be seen differently by different people, right? So-

   7. ALDr. Amir Levine12:14

      They process differently. Yeah.

   8. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee12:14

      Will process differently. Exactly.

   9. ALDr. Amir Levine12:15

      Yeah.

   10. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee12:16

       So, you know, a car crash for someone would be really, really stressful, and for someone else, they may not be perturbed by it at all, right?

   11. ALDr. Amir Levine12:24

       Right.

   12. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee12:24

       So it wasn't necessarily the external stressor that was the issue. It was how did that person interpret that-That stressor, as it were

   13. ALDr. Amir Levine12:33

       It's a combination of... Yes, exactly. So the thing is, when you do recall those memories in a safe place, when you're creating a secure bond, again, it's the change happens from the relationships in the here and now. So you're creating a, a hopefully a secure relationship with your therapist, and then you're recalling those memories, and what happens is actually much more profound than making those causal inferences. You actually, when you understand, like, the, you, you, when you recall a memory, you disrupt it, and basically you can rewrite that memory-

   14. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee13:05

       Yeah

   15. ALDr. Amir Levine13:05

       ... and remember it differently, and that's much more intense, I think-

   16. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee13:09

       Yeah

   17. ALDr. Amir Levine13:10

       ... than actually making, "Oh, because this happened to me, now I'm this way."

   18. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee13:13

       I, I love that. I absolutely have experienced that myself, where you can, you can reinterpret a past event at a different stage in your life, especially if you have this secure attachment and the secure relationships around you, and so you're effectively changing your past.

   19. ALDr. Amir Levine13:31

       Exactly. That-

   20. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee13:32

       We-

   21. ALDr. Amir Levine13:32

       It's so powerful, right?

   22. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee13:34

       Yeah.

   23. ALDr. Amir Levine13:34

       It's so powerful, and the way I'm thinking about my own childhood and the way that I see it and the way that I interpret certain things, and that's what I try to do in the secure priming therapy, is help people reinterpret things differently. Not necessarily, um, like, there's so many examples. I think, uh, the Beckhams now, there's, I think there was a story about, like, oh, like he was-

   24. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee13:55

       Yeah

   25. ALDr. Amir Levine13:55

       ... so upset that he took his childhood photos and they ma- they monetized it. But I mean, going back in time, maybe, I mean, I don't know [laughs] if I should, I don't know if I should get into that, because it may upset some people. But the way that I think about it, I mean, at the time, I don't know what their mo- exact motivation was, but maybe it was they were really so happy to have a child and they wanted to sort of, they, they wanted to show it to the world, and they wanted to create the narrative, uh-

   26. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee14:22

       Yeah, and-

   27. ALDr. Amir Levine14:22

       ... rather than let someone else create the narrative for them.

   28. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee14:25

       Yeah. And for context, 'cause I don't know when we're gonna put this episode out, what Dr. Levine is talking about is literally in the past 24 hours, a story has broken with Brooklyn Beckham where he has announced on social media some of his frustrations with the way he's been brought up. Okay? It may be that over the next few weeks more things become clear or whatever, but I guess it was a bit like the Prince Harry situation with the royal family. No one really knows the reality from the outside. We, you know, people love to comment on this stuff.

   29. ALDr. Amir Levine15:00

       Right.

   30. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee15:01

       But the reality is it's like we don't know-
7. 17:07 – 20:00

   Attachment can shift over time: teens, life stages, and the “Call me, we need to talk” test

   1. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee17:07

      Before we do that, though, Amir, couple of things I just wanna comment on, which was quite eye-opening for me when reading your book. Firstly, and you've touched on this in the conversation already, that these attachment styles can change, right? So there was... And maybe this bit really resonate with me because, you know, my kids are teenagers at the moment, but you literally talk about there's this childhood attachment style, and then in teenagers, um, when they're more interested, let's say, in what their peers think than their parents, their attachment style can change. And you're also making the case that, you know, how we attach as adults can be different from children. So that's quite interesting to me, that these things can change throughout life. Related to that, I wanted to make another point. In the, in the sort of part two of the book where you go into these attachment styles in detail and you have certain questionnaires to fill out to help us understand what we are, it was very clear to me that if I was answering those questions 10 years ago, I would answer them differently. So I think at the start of that section you say that one of the questions the researchers often ask people is, "You've been away for a business trip. You have just landed and you're about to come home, and you put on your phone and you see a text message from your significant other half saying-What was it? Is it-

   2. ALDr. Amir Levine18:42

      Call me, we need to talk

   3. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee18:43

      ... call me, we need to talk.

   4. ALDr. Amir Levine18:44

      Yeah.

   5. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee18:46

      Right. I think it's a great one. I know for a f- well, not for a fact, okay? But I, I imagine that 10 years ago, if I received a text like that, I would immediately think, I don't know, have I done something wrong, or is, is there something bad I'm about to hear, or do you know what I mean?

   6. ALDr. Amir Levine19:08

      Right.

   7. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee19:09

      That's, that's where I would have gone to. I don't really think I'd go there anymore, but I've done quite a lot of internal excavation. Um, I've done a form of therapy called internal family systems many years ago. I've- I feel like a lot of these insecurities that I may have had early on in life that I have put down to my childhood, rightly or wrongly, okay? I feel that that empowered me to then go and change them. So I'm putting quite a lot at you, Amir, but I've, I've really thought about this deeply, this idea that these things can change throughout our life, but also that we can change our own attachment styles perhaps, or maybe different flavors of those attachment styles depending on h- what we do and what we surround ourselves with. So I don't know. Help me make sense of it all, please.

8. 20:00 – 22:11

   The four adult attachment styles, mapped on two dimensions

   1. ALDr. Amir Levine20:00

      Yes. Yes, definitely. So I'll start by just, like, explaining a little bit about the four attachment styles-

   2. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee20:05

      Yeah, sure

   3. ALDr. Amir Levine20:05

      ... so we'll get that out of the way. And then I h- I'll- I'll- I'll say I love the way that you've talked about your own transformation because it's so helpful.

   4. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee20:14

      Yeah.

   5. ALDr. Amir Levine20:14

      Um, so the way that it works out, it's, uh, there's these four attachment styles: anxious, avoidant, secure, and fearful avoidant, and it's on two dimensions really. It's, it all has to do with how comfortable you feel with intimacy and closeness, but then also, on the other hand, how sensitive of a radar do you have for potential threat in a relationship. So if you are, if you love, uh, closeness a lot, but you also are very, like, you, like, something like that would set you off, like a simple sentence or, like they have on TikTok, they have this thing when they say, "Me and my current husband," and then all of a sudden the other person's like, "What do you mean current?" But you can see on TikTok some of them smile, some of them get really upset, some of them leave the room. So if you have a very sensitive radar for potential threat in a relationship, where are they going? Are they gonna break up with me? Then you love closeness, then you have more of an anxious attachment style. You have a sensitivity to potential, uh, um, problems. Um-

   6. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee21:13

      Yeah, you s- you say, I mean, I, I kept reading the section. You say the anxiety dimension when it comes to attachment styles assesses the extent to which individuals worry about being abandoned or unloved. High scores on this dimension indicate a high level of attachment-related anxiety characterized by a fear of rejection and a frequent need for reassurance. Now, I know you're saying we can't prove stuff from childhood makes a difference here, but with the understanding that we all interpret stresses differently, if when you were a, a young child, I don't know, your mum went away suddenly, and you didn't know where she was, or your parents got divorced, and it wasn't very pleasant, it, it seems reasonable that if that didn't go particularly well for you, then you might have this worry about being abandoned or unloved.

9. 22:11 – 33:48

   Anxious attachment as sensitivity (an ‘orchid’ trait) and a potential superpower

   1. ALDr. Amir Levine22:11

      Okay. So I'm gonna reply to this, um, in a way that, uh, probably you wouldn't expect, and I didn't expect it either, and I was blown away when I read it in the research, and I really go into depth, uh, about it in the chapter about the anxious attachment.

   2. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee22:26

      Yeah.

   3. ALDr. Amir Levine22:27

      So what you, what I've discovered in the research, because I think some of the research, the way that they present some of the, the, the findings is also biased, but when you really look at the findings, what you see is not necessarily someone who's so worried about abandonment and it's just, like, people who are, have, like, a sixth sense for picking up stuff from the environment. Like, there was one... Like, not just danger, but also danger, but a lot of different things. Uh, it's just, like, people who have a more sensitivity to picking up stuff. So for example, there was one study where they had, like, on a group level, when they had, um, like, a group of people in a room, and they had, like, smoke start to come out-

   4. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee23:08

      Mm-hmm

   5. ALDr. Amir Levine23:08

      ... from a, from a computer, and the people with the anxious attach- attachment were the, were the first to identify the danger, and interestingly enough, the avoidants were the first out the door. So you have a segment of the population that is very, that can pick up cues from the surroundings that others can't.

   6. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee23:27

      So it's a superpower.

   7. ALDr. Amir Levine23:28

      It is in a way a superpower. You just can see things that others can't see. They notice even little things, little shifts.

   8. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee23:35

      So maybe we have a bias. There's an inherent bias in how we self-report ourselves, right? Because if we're wired that way, we can then look back on our childhood and say, "Yeah, this is what happened when I was a kid. That's why I'm like this." But it may not be that. It may be that we're already like that, and so when that situation happened, we were more sensitive to it.

   9. ALDr. Amir Levine24:00

      And also think about how much, how much more challenging it is to raise a child that has these high levels of sensitivity. There's a whole re- uh, area of research in, in children about, like, that some, uh, some kids are more like orchids. They're very sensitive, but they can bloom beautifully, and other kids are more like dandelions. They can go anywhere. They're not that sensitive to the environment. They're not, like, they, they can really thrive anywhere. But if you, uh, give the right environment for the orchids, they, they actually outperform the dandelions. So, like, if you just look at the, uh, at the vulnerability or the potential liability of it, you're missing a huge part of the picture, and that's a big... What I'm trying... That's the point that I'm trying to make in the book. I even give an example. It's like-It's a mind-blowing example, like, 'cause I was looking for a good example to give about this woman who adopted a girl, and then she went to school with her. And one day, and she noticed another girl came to her, and they started playing, and she stopped, froze all of a sudden, and said something, "I think this other girl is my daughter's sister."

   10. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee25:08

       Biological sister.

   11. ALDr. Amir Levine25:09

       Yes. She saw something in their facial expression. She even said they didn't have different eye color, but it was something about their facial expression that they looked, they looked the same to me. And she turned around and told everyone, "I think she's her sister," and no one believed her.

   12. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee25:22

       No one believes it, yeah.

   13. ALDr. Amir Levine25:23

       And she went into, and she researched it, and she was her sister. So what an amazing... So here's an example where there's no danger, but you can actually see things that other people can't see. And now the- they're, they're, they've been, it's been years now, like from the story from what I read, they're inseparable.

   14. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee25:41

       I guess what I'm getting from you is, is you're saying that, look, and, and please correct me if I've got this wrong, but it seems to me is what you're saying is understand your attachment style, find out which one of these four categories you fall into, and then ask yourself, is this working for you? If it is working for you in the way your life is currently set up, whether that be your work or your partner or whatever it might be, great. You know, you just keep going. But if you find that your attachment style is in conflict with maybe some of the things in your life, and maybe that's why you don't speak up at work, that's why you're having frequent arguments with your partner. Maybe the tools in this book can help you not get rid of it, but learn to work with it so that you can have a happier and healthier life. Is that a fair way to look at it?

   15. ALDr. Amir Levine26:46

       Yes, I definitely agree. I think it's... But when you work with it, you change it. That's the idea. But that ability to see things actually is not a bad, I mean, that's something that serves you. You don't want to get rid of it entirely. It's like people, like you remember, it's, it's like the orchid idea. They can outperform the dandelion.

   16. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee27:06

       Could you, could you say, I don't know. Let's say you're a footballer, right? Or what you guys would call soccer, right?

   17. ALDr. Amir Levine27:12

       Yeah, yeah.

   18. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee27:12

       Let's say, let's say you're playing football, and I don't know, you're really bad with your left foot, right? But you're exceptional with your right foot. You can learn or the team can put you in a position, and you can learn certain moves and certain runs where actually it's very unlikely you'll ever need your left foot. So in some ways you can say, yeah, well, you could work on your left foot and make that stronger. Or you could go, "Yeah, I could do, but I can also play the game which reduces the likelihood that I'm ever gonna need my left foot."

   19. ALDr. Amir Levine27:51

       It's a great example, and I'll tell you why. It's not that I'm never gonna need my left foot. It's like learning to use, and that's what secures are so good at, learning to use others to, uh, help bring out the best in you-

   20. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee28:03

       Mm

   21. ALDr. Amir Levine28:03

       ... and learning to lean on others, and that's where what avoidants are not good at. You remember that strange situation test? They stay limp. They can't really use the other. They're like, "Oh, I, I'm, I'm gonna regulate my own feelings," but actually they, like, really have a hard time. What you're describing is how can I utilize others, so they'll cover that side-

   22. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee28:22

       Yeah

   23. ALDr. Amir Levine28:22

       ... and I can actually use this side to, uh, to sort of get a win for my team. And that is also goes into the whole latter part of the book, which I actually love because a lot of the ther- the sort of, uh, secure priming therapy, which is kind of like a, a therapeutic modality I invented because as a neuroscientist, this is the kind of therapy I would have wanted to get, but it didn't exist, so I kind of had to come up with something. But it talks about, uh, like these hidden sparks of talent, about discovering what your hidden spark of talent is. And oftentimes for people who have insecure attachment and especially anxious, their hidden spark of talent oftentimes they perceive as an impediment. So the example that you'll get is like, oh, my left l- foot is really weak, and my, and like what am I gonna do? What am I gonna do? It's like, whoa, but wait a second. If you shift your perspective a little bit and think about your right foot, you can get so, you can get so much more. And that whole big part of secure priming therapy is uncovering those hidden sparks of talent-

   24. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee29:24

       Yeah

   25. ALDr. Amir Levine29:24

       ... and finding like... Yeah, I can give you an example. I'll give you example.

   26. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee29:26

       Please, yeah.

   27. ALDr. Amir Levine29:27

       I have a, a patient who constantly is like, um, thinking about himself and how, like, is he this diagnosis or that diagnosis, and he really has like a very strong drive, so to uncover the truth and really look into the details. Uh, so if he uses it sometimes to self-scrutinize himself, that is not helpful. That does not work for him. It's not effective. But when he uses it at work to, uh, really go down into the details of certain business proposals and finding out and like-

   28. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee29:58

       Mm

   29. ALDr. Amir Levine29:58

       ... analyzing stuff, like he excels. Like he is, like he does so well there. So it's the same talent, but how do you position it?

   30. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee30:08

       Yeah. We've covered ex- the anxiety dimension, okay. So people can perhaps, as they hear that, and there, there are questionnaires in the book if people actually wanna do it-
10. 33:48 – 39:15

    Avoidant attachment: distance preferences, evolution, and why ‘why’ is hard to prove

    1. ALDr. Amir Levine33:48

       So, so for avoidant, it's all about not feeling too comfortable with too much closeness. They just don't like a lot of closeness.

    2. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee33:56

       Why not?

    3. ALDr. Amir Levine33:57

       So this is where, you know, as a scientist, to answer the why is a very difficult-

    4. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee34:03

       Yeah

    5. ALDr. Amir Levine34:03

       ... uh, answer. But if you look online, on TikTok, they will say, "Oh," they, they immediately sort of give that explanation, but it has never... I mean, to, to my, to the best of my knowledge, and I looked into it a lot, like, that's never been proven. And actually, we really have to be careful. This history of psychology, we've attributed so much stuff [chuckles] to, I don't know, like this whole term of refrigerator mother. When we actually told about, uh, kids with autism, it's because they had really cold mothers. There's the schizophrenic mother who, uh, now if she wasn't too cold, but she was hot and cold, and that caused schizophrenia in their children. Uh, we have this whole, there was this whole thing about what causes, uh, people to be gay. Like, I don't know, distant fathers. All, there's all this causality that's went around for years, and it was all proven to be completely false, and it's also very, very hard to s- make those studies to actually prove that.

    6. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee34:58

       Hmm.

    7. ALDr. Amir Levine34:58

       And actually, I'm very, um, I'm skeptical, and here where it comes to this whole, um, thing, when you understand the brain from a neuroscience pespect- perspective and how the brain changes, it's... Unless there's, like, this huge genetic defect that really, like, overdrives everything, it's always a combination of certain behavioral programs in the mother and the father, but then also what happens in utero, what happens in the first year of life, your genetic component, component, how it interacts together. It's never one thing or another. Um-

    8. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee35:33

       Okay

    9. ALDr. Amir Levine35:33

       ... it's always a sort of a gene-environment interaction. So I find for people who are avoidant that, and if you look at it throughout the whole evolution, that some, some animals have more... are, like, are programmed to like distance, and some animals are programmed to feel more comfortable with closeness. And I give that example of C. elegans, which is a tiny microscopic worm that, uh, neuroscientists love because it has these huge neurons. And in C. elegans, you have, um, you have social feeders, and you have isolated feeders, and they eat, uh, E. coli. So you put a little bit of E. coli, and you see, like, a big lump of worms.

    10. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee36:14

        Hmm.

    11. ALDr. Amir Levine36:14

        They're voraciously eating. But then there's the solitary eaters, and if one of the social one go- swims in its direction, crawls in its direction, it'll go away. It's chemotactically, um, repelled [chuckles] by the other ones, whereas the other ones are completely aggregate, and they, uh, attract each other, and it's a product of a single gene mutation. And you can switch the social to solitary feeders and back, back and forth by a single point mutation. And so you have this genetic baseline, and that gene also, there's a, um, um... Like, it actually also exists in humans, but I don't think... In humans, there's no one single gene-

    12. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee36:53

        Right

    13. ALDr. Amir Levine36:54

        ... that will dictate the preference for cl- closeness and distance. But if you look around you, that preference of closeness and distance exists. Uh, it exists in our pets. Some dogs like more clos- closeness and some less. Some cats love closeness, despite what people may think. So it exists. It exists everywhere.

    14. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee37:14

        Yeah. It kind ofI guess it really makes sense if we look at this through an evolutionary lens, right? Where we need different traits in the population, right?

    15. ALDr. Amir Levine37:24

        Exactly.

    16. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee37:25

        So you're saying the, the anxiety dimension, these people can be hypervigilant sometimes, right? And pick up on stuff, super sensitive. And you say the, the avoidant people are characterized by a strong desire for independence and a discomfort with relying on others. What you can kind of think about us as hunter-gatherers and go, well, both of those traits are gonna be useful for the tribe. You know-

    17. ALDr. Amir Levine37:47

        Hugely useful

    18. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee37:48

        ... you want some people to be mega independent and not be as reliant on others, and maybe they're gonna take risks, and I don't know, go and hunt and take risks and, but get a big feed for the, for the tribe. Whereas you might also want people who are hypervigilant and can pick stuff up that others are maybe chi- totally chilled about. So yeah, I guess in many ways it sort of fits with this idea that we need different traits within a population. So again, just bringing it back to these four attachment styles. One of them is secure, three of them are insecure, and under that insecure umbrella, one is anxious, one is avoidant. You've covered those. And what is that third insecure one of-

    19. ALDr. Amir Levine38:32

        The fearful avoidant

    20. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee38:33

        ... fearful avoidant? Is it a bit of both, basically?

    21. ALDr. Amir Levine38:34

        It is a bit of both, but, um, if I go back, like in for the avoidant, so you're right, there is an advantage, and it's not just the hunters, gatherers. Even like in that example that I gave you with the smoke coming out, the anxious were the first one to identify it-

    22. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee38:49

        Mm

    23. ALDr. Amir Levine38:50

        ... and the avoidants were the first out the door. So they were like, "I don't even care what, like, who is around me. I'm out of here." [laughs] Like, they, they just, like, they can... And in a work situation, oftentimes they can, uh, they work really well by themselves. They don't really need a lot of input from others, and you can see how that can be very advantageous in certain, uh, circumstances when you need someone to just kinda like take charge, make decision, and not sort of lean, uh, for help-

    24. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee39:15

        Mm

11. 39:15 – 43:31

    Fearful-avoidant dynamics and the attachment system as a survival safety mechanism

    1. ALDr. Amir Levine39:15

       ... from others. So it's still in our, even today, it's very, very helpful to have these variations in the population. The fearful avoidant I think makes this the, the more, the more painful attachment style. They're the ones, at least the research shows, that it's really hard for them to get along in relationships because they have a little bit, a, a little bit of both, and it's like-

    2. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee39:38

       Are they very needy?

    3. ALDr. Amir Levine39:40

       It's not necessarily, n- well, it's not necessarily that they're very needy, and you know, actually from an attachment perspective, that's a line, uh, I always like, like, we like to say that you're only as needy as, as your unmet needs. Because-

    4. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee39:53

       Mm

    5. ALDr. Amir Levine39:54

       ... when your needs are met, this whole thing about relationships, it's a safety mechanism. That's how we feel safe in the world. It's a very, it's like a radar. It's not so much about having multiple conversations. It's like, it's like knowing that the person is there, so we can go out into the world and do our things. From the point of view of the brains, relationships are like a working unit. It really is meant to help us, um, give us the space to do things. So good relationships actually are relationships that we barely think about, that we know that they're there in the, in the background, and it gives us the opportunity to sort of take off and do everything that we wanna do. You can see that in the strange situation test where the mother is there, there's a room full of toys. Like, the child doesn't even care that she's there. It's like, "Oh my God, I want to explore all these things." Every once in a while, he looks back to see where is she to kind of like get the secure base. That's how we feel safe in the world. But then it's really tied to exploration, so secure attachment really helps you with the exploration. Um, and it's, it's, uh, it's, um, it's a systems that we have in our brain all the time. Even now as we speak, you have an idea where your loved ones are and that they're okay.

    6. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee41:10

       Mm.

    7. ALDr. Amir Levine41:10

       And if, God forbid, and I even hate saying that because if you know all of a sudden that something bad happened where your loved one is, there was an earthquake, there was something that happened, I don't know, something in the school. I don't even wanna say it 'cause-

    8. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee41:22

       Mm

    9. ALDr. Amir Levine41:22

       ... it's too much to even say it. You would, uh, you wouldn't be able to continue to have this conversation with me. You'd have to stop, and you have to make sure that they're okay again, and then you'll be able to come back, albeit-

    10. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee41:32

        Mm

    11. ALDr. Amir Levine41:32

        ... a little bit rattled, and continue. So we have this, that's how we feel safe. We have this knowledge where our loved ones are, and that they're basically pretty much okay, and we can continue with our life. Uh, because when this-- You have to remember, we're not the descendants of eagles or elephants or lions. We are descendants of animals [laughs] that were in the middle of the food chain, so our brain speaks to us differently. Our brain needs those others, sort of the, the knowledge of others around us to feel safe 'cause money, credit cards, condos, cars, all those things didn't exist when our emotional brain evolved. It evolved when the people around us were the one who protected us and helped us. Just by having you here, if we were attacked, it reduces my chances of, uh, becoming prey by 50%, right? Because-

    12. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee42:24

        Yeah

    13. ALDr. Amir Levine42:24

        ... they're gonna pick you up, or they're gonna pick me. And so that's a huge reduction [laughs] in, uh, in risk when you're an animal in the middle of the food chain. So the fearful avoidant, they don't know how to feel safe in a relationship, but they want a relationship. Whereas the, um, the, the regular avoidant, it's like, "Oh, I don't need a relationship. I can do it on my own." The fearful avoidant, "I want a relationship," but they, they always feel like closeness is too much, so they don't really know how to get close and also, um, and make it work. Um, but they want it. Whereas like a, like anxious, they really, really want a relationship, and if you come and you're close to them and you're secure, they don't really see a lot of danger, and they're happy as can be.

    14. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee43:07

        Yeah.

    15. ALDr. Amir Levine43:07

        But with fearful avoidant, when you become too close, they don't feel comfortable, so they have to sort of find a very, um, delicate balance between, um-It's almost like walking on a tightrope. One side is anxiety, one side of the avoidance, and you have to find the da-

    16. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee43:23

        Mm

    17. ALDr. Amir Levine43:23

        ... like, with patients, to teach them how to find that very delicate balance of walking-

    18. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee43:28

        Yeah

    19. ALDr. Amir Levine43:28

        ... on that tightrope, something that feels comfortable for them.

12. 43:31 – 52:46

    Safari, the Cyberball effect, and the Still Face experiment: exclusion hurts like pain

    1. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee43:31

       Yeah, and I think one of the really great things about part three of your book is that there are all of these tools for people. So it doesn't matter where you are, you know, even if you're fearful avoidant, there are still things you can do to give your brain that sense of security, which i- which is so important. But relating to what you just said, it's that you really understood the importance of us as a social species when you were on a safari in Africa.

    2. ALDr. Amir Levine44:02

       I'm glad that you brought it back to the safari trip because that's when really, when I really finally understood, oh, this is what our brain, this is how our brain speaks to us. I mean, we were there, and most of the time you go on this, like, like, they drive you around, and you see the animals, and that's all. That's, that's amazing and fascinating. But then on one occasion, they took us out, uh, with the other car just to walk around, uh, in the safari where all the animals are. And-

    3. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee44:29

       So you're walking in the African outback, basically.

    4. ALDr. Amir Levine44:31

       Yes, basically.

    5. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee44:32

       No car.

    6. ALDr. Amir Levine44:33

       No car.

    7. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee44:33

       Okay.

    8. ALDr. Amir Levine44:34

       But we did have two of the guards, one in the... So they told us to go walk in a single file, and we had, like, uh, one person in the back with a rifle and one person in the front in the ri- with a rifle. And they told us at, at no given moment to, uh, open a gap between us and to just make sure that we're all walking in a single file and in an, in an aggregated way. And if someone stalled a little bit and there's a little bit of gap opened up, they, like, the guy in the back would cry, "Close the gap. Close the gap." And we were very mindful of what was going on because we were just there.

    9. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee45:04

       Were, were you scared?

    10. ALDr. Amir Levine45:06

        Um, I was definitely more vigilant.

    11. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee45:09

        [laughs]

    12. ALDr. Amir Levine45:09

        [laughs] For sure. And there was-

    13. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee45:11

        So you're basically walking around and, you know, you could come across lions-

    14. ALDr. Amir Levine45:15

        Yes, of course

    15. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee45:16

        ... or elephants or hippos.

    16. ALDr. Amir Levine45:17

        Or those big snakes. I don't remember what they're called.

    17. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee45:19

        Yeah.

    18. ALDr. Amir Levine45:19

        They're scary snakes. Yes.

    19. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee45:19

        Okay. So you've, you've gotta be careful.

    20. ALDr. Amir Levine45:21

        Yes.

    21. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee45:21

        And he's asking you-

    22. ALDr. Amir Levine45:23

        [laughs]

    23. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee45:23

        ... to stay close.

    24. ALDr. Amir Levine45:25

        Yes, exactly.

    25. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee45:25

        Did they explain why to stay close?

    26. ALDr. Amir Levine45:27

        So the thing is, and that's what you also see in the wild when you watch all of those nature shows, right? And that's what they often talk about. It's like to stay close to the herd because usually, the ones that stay apart, that are not in the center of the herd, those are the ones that get picked off. So they go for the one who is, uh, apart from the crowd. And we all, our brain computes that, and our brains of our pets also compute that. And that actually relates to... That's when I understood what I call the cyberball effect in the book, which is based on the cyberball experiment, which I find it to be so brilliant. The person who did it, uh, Keith Williams, did it when he, like, the way that he, like, he thought about that idea when he was walking in a park and, like, a Frisbee, uh, was... like, came sailing in his direction. These two guys were playing Frisbee, and he picked it up, and he, uh, threw it back at them, and they started including him in the game. And then as, just as, as they started, they all of a sudden stopped. And he said he remember feeling surprisingly bad about, like, all of a sudden being excluded from the game even though he didn't know these people. He knew that eventually it was gonna stop. And then he went on and designed this experiment. It's called the cyberball experiment, where you are, well, like, in a video game, very rudimentary video game, and you play a game of catch with two other figures. Um, and all of a sudden, they stop throwing the ball in your direction, and they play between them. And what they find is two things. There's, like, the brain effect and the psychological effect. The brain effect is that they saw areas in the brain that are related to pain, distress, and self-scrutiny, uh, really got activated in the brain. So, uh, and then also the other thing that they found was that it, it decreases the feeling... Well, maybe I'll, I'll start with that, um, because that's really important.

    27. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee47:17

        Yeah.

    28. ALDr. Amir Levine47:17

        And then I'll tell you-

    29. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee47:18

        Sure

    30. ALDr. Amir Levine47:18

        ... because another thing that... So another thing that they found was that it's very hard to, it's very hard to mitigate that effect. So let's say I'm gonna give you money, uh, and maybe whenever you're excluded, I'm gonna give you, uh, money. So would that take away from that, uh, effect on the brain? No. They find that no, money doesn't help. Um, they even went as far as telling minority, uh, people that the other two members, the other two players are members of the KKK. So, like, even if, like, despicable people, uh, you're playing with despicable people, what do you care if they're gonna include you or not? No. Still, it has a similar effect. So it's a very... It's almost like a knee-jerk reaction.
13. 52:46 – 1:07:21

    From conflict to repair: protest behaviors, co-regulation, and two key fight rules

    1. ALDr. Amir Levine52:46

       Well, it's even... So what hap- Like, so here's the thing. When you under-

    2. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee52:49

       Or is it more harmful?

    3. ALDr. Amir Levine52:51

       Well, when you understand the language of attachment, so then sometimes what happens is that because you're ignoring them, um, basically you then sometimes, then they engage in what we call protest behavior. And so protest behavior is a very specific term in attachment, uh, science, and what happens is, is, like, when you feel that the other person is not available, you'll engage in any sort of behavior to reestablish that availability. And because it's such a rudimentary, uh, system, the attachment system, and because it's really about really survival and safety, oftentime we end up, and that's, we end up acting and doing things that we feel, "What is going on? Why am I doing this? I don't wanna scream like that. I don't wanna do this." But it's so much stronger and, like, and, and more primitive and more foundational than what we can control. It's, it's about our survival, and that's why oftentimes, and I think that's wh- why people find a lot of, uh, solace and empowerment in attachment, is to understand you're not crazy. 'Cause a lot of people can be hugely very functional, very good, like, amazing in their work, and then when it comes to relationships, they just fall apart, and they don't understand why. But if you work on that and you teach, it's really about the emotional rapport between two people, and it's again, remember, I told you it's a, it's a working unit, and the function of secure relationships is to help regulate each other's emotions. So it is both of our responsibility to make sure that the other person is calm. This is... We are a highly social species, and so when something bad happens to us, and I'm sure we have an attachment hierarchy in our brain.

    4. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee54:35

       Mm.

    5. ALDr. Amir Levine54:35

       And I know, I'm sure if something bad were to happen to you, you know exactly which was the number one person you're gonna go to. And oftentime, if they say something, if they're, if you're securely attached to them, they, even a few words, a hug, can immediately make you feel better. There's no Xanax or Klonopin in the world that can have such a powerful effect, because we're such deeply social species that it can really have such a profound effect. But the other side of it is that, so secure attachment is one of the most powerful regulators of, of affect, of emotions, but there's another side to the coin that insecure attachments can be the, one of the most powerful instigators of emotional distress, right? If they don't say, if they withdraw, or if they do, like, it can cause huge emotional distress. So if you think about it, attachment is really at the basis of both-

    6. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee55:27

       Yeah

    7. ALDr. Amir Levine55:27

       ... suffering and healing from suffering.

    8. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee55:30

       Yeah, good quality relationships can be the best way to relieve stress, and poor re-Unhealthy relationships can be the biggest source of stress

    9. ALDr. Amir Levine55:39

       Exactly. Exactly

    10. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee55:40

        Kind of works both ways, doesn't it?

    11. ALDr. Amir Levine55:42

        Yes. And not just talking about the relationships that we have with our partner. I'm talking about the relationships that we have, we have with our healthcare providers. There's one study there about people with fibromyalgia, where there's a chronic pain, and when they have good relationships and they're secure, they oftentimes have better relationships with their healthcare providers, and the outcomes are better. So it has such a profound effect on our brain. So that's why... I wouldn't... I, I, I don't even usually think what is worse, the yelling or the withdrawing. Both are really bad

    12. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee56:13

        Both, both are bad. Yeah

    13. ALDr. Amir Levine56:14

        Both are, because both don't serve the purpose of regulating each other's emotions, and that's why I have, like, that tool. One of the tools in the book is, like, when I have this rule that helps people when they're fighting. It's like, if you understand the function of relationships, then I, I often say that only one person is allowed to be upset at a time, and the first person who's upset, that's them, and the role of the other person is to help them calm down. You can't... It doesn't make sense from an attachment perspective for both of you to be upset at the same time. So what happens with couples is usually when they get into a fight, and then, like, one of them stops and they say, "Wait, wait, wait a second. I was upset first. [laughs] It's my turn. You can't be upset." And then they start laughing about it or it really calls to their attention, "Wait. Remember what the function, what we're trying to do here. We're kind of, like, off the mark." And if that doesn't work, then I have a second rule.

    14. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee57:06

        Is that the mea culpa rule?

    15. ALDr. Amir Levine57:07

        That's the mea culpa rule. Yes.

    16. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee57:08

        And can you explain that one?

    17. ALDr. Amir Levine57:09

        Yes. So that rule basically says, if you are not able to take turns, and I have to say, it is hard to take turns, because what happens, when we're attached to someone, like people say, you know, about this whole codependency, you have to sort of really separate yourself from others. That's all really nice and clean, sounds really wonderful, but that's not our physiology. When we get attached to someone, y- our physiology merges, and they really... You can see it on certain studies. They have your heart rate is controlled by your partner's, your, uh, your breathing. They even have some studies where they show that if you have a cut and you're more, uh, secure, it, like, it can heal faster. So it has a profound effect on our immunity, on our in- inflammation, on many different physiological aspects. So that whole nice separation, "Oh, we're not gonna be too dependent," that's really nice, but it's not happening. So basically, it's hard when someone is upset not to be upset, too. But that's why I have to remember that rule, to keep yourself... But because you reverberate with them. So if you both get upset, that's when we get to the mea culpa rule, which means, like, you both have to apologize, because you both failed the relationship. So we say, "You know what? I'm really sorry that I'm upset. Um, I'm really sorry. I, I really should be really seeing more of your point of view. I don't want to be this way. I want us to get along. Can we, can we hug?" Oftentime, touch is really good, because attachment is pre-language, and, um, language sometimes gets in the way.

    18. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee58:39

        Language sometimes gets in the way. Ain't that the truth? And it really, it forces us to look at the real point of a relationship. The point of a relationship is not to prove how great you are and, you know, to be right.

    19. ALDr. Amir Levine58:56

        Yeah. I'm rolling my eyes as you're saying that-

    20. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee58:57

        Yeah. And that's not the point. And you-

    21. ALDr. Amir Levine58:58

        ... because people are really missing the point

    22. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee59:00

        You quickly learn that when you get, you know, certainly, you know-

    23. ALDr. Amir Levine59:02

        [laughs]

    24. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee59:02

        ... if you get in a long-term relationship or you get married or whatever, the way you like to choose to, to do long-term relationships, you quickly learn, I think [laughs] if you're gonna have a happy, sustainable relationship, that it's not about being right. Uh, that's rarely helpful. But under- underpinning those two rules was this idea that you wrote about, which I think is quite provocative to some people. You are both responsible for failing to keep each other's emotional equilibrium, right? So this is really interesting. So the... I think that, the, the common viewpoint in society is that if a couple are having a disagreement stroke argument, that it's someone's fault. But you're kind of saying that if you're having a big disagreement, you're both at fault.

    25. ALDr. Amir Levine1:00:00

        Yes.

    26. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:00:00

        D- is that fair to say?

    27. ALDr. Amir Levine1:00:01

        Yes. I'm, I, I think it's fair to say.

    28. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:00:03

        And so how... So if someone's pushing back, uh, if someone's listening to that going, "Yeah, but you don't know, Dr. Levine, what my husband was like when he said that to me last night. It- I'm not responsible for that. It was my husband, and I reacted to how my husband was with me," to that person, what would you say? Have you tried to meditate before? Perhaps you've heard about some of the benefits, like reducing stress and increased focus, and you've given it a go and thought it's not the practice for you. Well, I believe that may well be because you have not tried The Way approach. The Way is the only meditation app with a single long-term pathway. You're not forced to make loads of choices each day. Instead, you're guided on an enjoyable and progressive journey that deepens your practice step by step. Since I partnered with The Way, I have had so much positive feedback. One listener said, "Dr. Chatterjee, I came to The Way through your podcast. I have tried other meditation apps in the past with limited success, and like the idea of following a single guided path. I'm nearly two months in now and loving it. Henry's gentle and concise approach is very calming, and The Way is now a part of my morning routine." You see, that's the sentiment that so many people report when they start meditating with The Way. For listeners of my show, The Way is offering 30 free sessions to help you establish your own meditation practice. All you have to do is click on the QR code on screen or go to thewayapp.com/livemore to get started.

    29. ALDr. Amir Levine1:01:52

        So I have to first say, of course, I'm talking about sort of relationships that are outside of, of, of the abusive context, because that's-

    30. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:02:00

        Got it
14. 1:07:21 – 1:21:05

    Building security in daily life: hyper-connection, CARP, and SIMIs

    1. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:07:21

       Yeah. So going back to those early three chapters in the book where you talk about the brain and what the brain needs to feel secure, we've just talked about the cyberball effect and what happens to the brain when, you know, we feel excluded or rejected. And then in chapter two, you talk about the antidote to exclusion being hyper-connectedness-

    2. ALDr. Amir Levine1:07:53

       Right

    3. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:07:53

       ... which I found really, really interesting. So can we just talk about what-You know, you, you've got the... What is it? It's CARP, isn't it, and SIMIs

    4. ALDr. Amir Levine1:08:02

       Yeah, yeah, yeah

    5. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:08:03

       Let's talk-

    6. ALDr. Amir Levine1:08:03

       These are foundational [laughs]

    7. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:08:04

       ... foundational things. I think it'd be really good for people to understand because ultimately, CARP and SIMIs are basically telling us what we can do, right?

    8. ALDr. Amir Levine1:08:12

       Right. So this is how, you know... And like when people came to me and they asked me, "How can I become more secure? How can I become more secure?" And I didn't have an immediate answer to that because these attachment styles, like, they don't exist within, they didn't exist within the clinical realm. Um, so it took me a while to come up with a, the, the answer, and I think ideally the answer came up to me fro- more from understanding the brain as a, as a scientist rather than as the, the physician. And so I married two concepts together, one from the attachment world and one from the neuroscience world. So basically, if you... Again, because you know that it's a... Attachment is a safety mechanism, so being disconnected makes us feel that life is less meaningful, that we're less in control of our life, and even that we have less, w- it leads us to have less self-esteem. So these are things that people usually think that are domains that happen only within us, that are not that affected-

    9. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:09:06

       Mm

    10. ALDr. Amir Levine1:09:06

        ... by how others, uh, treat us. But no, our sense of connectedness really affects us to the core, our core feelings about if, how much we feel that life is meaningful, about our self-esteem, about our control over our life. And the opposite is true. So what they found, they did the same soluble experiment, and they had, um... Like, so you're standing in, instead of, like, they're not throwing the ball and not throwing it to you. You're standing in the middle and two other people, each one on each side of you, and then you throw the ball to one. They throw it back to you, then you throw the ball to the other. They throw it back to you. You're in the center of attention. You're getting all the balls, like much more. The ball is thrown in your direction more often than not, so you're hyper-included. And they found that the bra- the brain, as much as it loathes disconnect, it loves being hyper-connected like that, and it makes you feel greater self-esteem, greater sense of control over your life, and it's like it's really all these foundational, uh, effects and that, yeah. And so these, these psychological, uh, benefits. So I thought to myself, how do I create that hyper-connectedness? But it had to be something simple that you could use. And if you understand attachment, you know that you don't need to have, like, hours-long conversations in order to feel connected to someone. It's not, that's not what this system is about. Uh, it's a pre-language system. So that's when I came up with this, uh, acronym. I figured you really need to learn to be consistent, available, and responsive. But it's not like, "Oh, I'm consistent, available, and responsive. I'm so great." You have to also make sure... It's like a two-factor authentication. You have to make sure that the other person experiences you as reliable and predictable, and that altogether is, uh, consistent, available, responsive, reliable, and predictable. Uh-

    11. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:10:52

        Hence CARP

    12. ALDr. Amir Levine1:10:53

        CARP

    13. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:10:53

        C-A-R-R-P.

    14. ALDr. Amir Levine1:10:54

        Yes. Right. Exactly.

    15. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:10:55

        So what, what does each of those things mean? Because I guess if we... We'd all like to think of ourselves as being those five things, wouldn't we? We... I guess if you were to ask people and say, "Would you... In, you know, in, in the closest relationships in your life, would you like to be consistent, available, responsive, reliable, and predictable?" I think everyone would say, "Yeah, I'd love that." I know-

    16. ALDr. Amir Levine1:11:19

        Well-

    17. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:11:19

        But-

    18. ALDr. Amir Levine1:11:19

        You would say that because you're probably more secure. But other people... Like even yesterday when I gave a talk, someone like, "Oh my God." First of all, they never thought about it that way, and like-

    19. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:11:29

        Yeah

    20. ALDr. Amir Levine1:11:29

        ... "I'm totally not that. Now that you told me that, it was like a moment of revelation. Um, I- I'm never that. I never answer on time. I'm never responsive." Like, 'cause some... That it's clear, to me at least, and maybe I'm wrong, but that you're not avoidant because avoidant people, people who are avoidant oftentimes it's like, no, they need to take care of their own emotions. I don't need to be constantly available to them. We, like... Avoidants think e- for each his own. Like, why do I need to be-

    21. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:11:56

        Mm

    22. ALDr. Amir Levine1:11:56

        ... in constant contact? Why do I always have to respond? No, I don't wanna do that. So, um-

    23. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:12:02

        But of course, w- uh, uh, you know, let's say it's an email or a text message that we don't get a reply to, right?

    24. ALDr. Amir Levine1:12:10

        Yeah. [laughs] I love that you mentioned that 'cause it's so visceral, right?

    25. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:12:15

        But how you interpret that will depend on your attachment style, won't it? Because let's say you're secure, and you send an email or a text message to someone and you don't get a reply. You're like, "Hey, they're probably busy."

    26. ALDr. Amir Levine1:12:33

        Right.

    27. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:12:33

        It do- it's no reflection on me, the fact that they haven't replied. Whereas if you're one of the insecure attachment styles, that could be, like, really freaky. It could be like, "Oh my God, what have I done? They don't like me. They're, um, they're annoyed with me," you know? That, "I- I'm no longer gonna be their friend," or whatever it might be, right?

    28. ALDr. Amir Levine1:12:55

        Right. So it also depends on the baseline of that relationship, right? Because we create this attachment homeostasis. And so if you know that someone replies every several hours, you're not going to expect them to reply more. It's all about a disruption in a certain baseline.

    29. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:13:09

        No, but it's a two-way thing, isn't it, right? Or, or let me ask you, Amir, is it a two-way thing in the sense that if these five features are required for the brain to feel hyper-connected with people around us, okay? Consistency, availability, responsiveness, reliability, and predictability.

    30. ALDr. Amir Levine1:13:29

        Yeah.
15. 1:21:05 – 1:40:26

    Closure, boundaries, and modern buzzwords: when popular lenses mislead

    1. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:21:05

       Yeah. In some of the marketing material that your publisher created around this book, whi- which is very thorough and very good, there was a couple of things it said, a, a couple of things sort of printed that I thought would be worthwhile discussing. The first one I think we've just done, you know, why smiling at people on the tube might be more effective than going to therapy, and that basically comes down to these CMEs, right, and what it does to the brain. It also says, though, why closure is a myth and why we still feel that we need it. That's an interesting one. Why is closure a myth?

    2. ALDr. Amir Levine1:21:40

       So basically, I, I don't know if I would say that it's more effective than therapy, but I would just say it's as effective as therapy. Um-

    3. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:21:48

       Talking to strangers, basically.

    4. ALDr. Amir Levine1:21:50

       Yes. I'm a, I'm a very, I'm a big proponent of therapy, and actually, in this book, I just like... It's not the, the secure priming therapy. It's not... It doesn't come to replace other therapies, but I think it's just, like, an added aspect. Um, it's like additional skills for therapists to be able to use in treatment because what I found, and then we'll get back to the, the closure, what I found is that there's this whole body of research about secure priming, that we can all be primed to greater security, and that there's a secure kernel within us, and that some of these priming, that basically that we all have secure representations within us, but I like to call it secure kernels, that we can tap into-

    5. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:22:34

       Mm-hmm

    6. ALDr. Amir Levine1:22:35

       ... and cultivate to become more secure. And oftentimes, these are events or people that we interacted with that were secure, that as people who are insecure, we oftentimes tend to gravitate, and in therapy especially, and think about difficult things that have happened. And there's not always room for, like, also the, um, the magnificent relationships that we've had that, with secure people in our lives. And I start the book actually with one of those examples-

    7. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:23:00

       Yeah

    8. ALDr. Amir Levine1:23:01

       ... of an amazing vacation that I took with someone who was, like, thoroughly secure and how it still s- stays in my mind. I, I mean, I, I went on that vacation when I was 12, but it's still, like, um... It, it left such a significant impact. And I found when, as a therapist, that listening to those stories, and we all have them, um, I mean, I think the majority of us have them, of some of us had amazing mentors. Some of us had amazing grandparents, parents, brothers, sisters, sometimes even a pet. Um, there's all these examples of secure attachments that we've exposed to.

    9. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:23:38

       Mm.

    10. ALDr. Amir Levine1:23:39

        And tapping into them and talking about them and reliving some of those things can actually lead to greater security. So that's one aspect of it. Um, so but to go about the, for the closure thing, um, the closure, from an attachment perspe- perspective, what happens is usually you want closure when something's not happening and the relationship fell apart, and then you feel, "If I only..." But the thing, like, you remember that I mentioned that, uh, concept of protest behavior?

    11. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:24:11

        Yeah.

    12. ALDr. Amir Levine1:24:11

        And there's another pro- uh, concept that's called activating strategies. So activating strategies is when we feel that the other person is not available to us, our mind will engage in multiple-- There's so many different ways in which it will engage. Again, it's a very powerful force, and it's about our survival. So for our mind, we need to re-engage with this person in order to feel safe and to survive because otherwise we're gonna, we're on the sideline.

    13. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:24:39

        Yeah.

    14. ALDr. Amir Levine1:24:39

        We're gonna be picked up. We're gonna become prey. We still think like we're in the middle of this food chain, and it feels very dangerous. So our mind will go to all these different tricks to convince us to try to reach out for the person, to the other person, and try to understand. It's like, "Oh, I want to try to understand what happened," or, "I can't believe they don't want to be with me. How can that be?" Or, uh, "Maybe I missed something." So it really, uh, it, an activating way, you keep the relationship in your mind by constantly thinking about them and trying to find answers. And so you'll go, and you'll think, "I'll get closure, and it will help me," but usually, like, you re-engage with them, and then you go home, and you still don't have all the answers because it's gonna keep on thinking about what's happened and what's not happened. And oftentimes, the answers are there. It's just, like, our mind, with our activating strategies, it doesn't let us see it. Um, and we think, "No, no, if only we'll get that," and oftentimes it doesn't work that well.

    15. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:25:36

        So what do we do instead of getting closure? If, if we, if someone's listening to this and they think maybe a relationship's gone badly, and they think, "I need to see that person. I need to talk to them. I need to understand things a bit more. I need to get closure," you're sort of saying that maybe they don't need closure. What, what can they do instead?

    16. ALDr. Amir Levine1:25:55

        I'm-- What I'm saying is that oftentimes you think you need closure, but it's really an activating strategy, and it's really a way to interact with a person again, and that's fine. It's not a bad thing. It's just like you're not gonna get exactly what you want. I think the better thing instead-... is to, to have, like, designated secure people in your life [laughs] and go to talk to them

    17. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:26:15

        So the, so the closure isn't necessarily about that person. It's like that's over for whatever reason. Instead of going to them to try and get more closure, look at other relationships in your life, these secure relationships, maybe your old friends or whatever, and what? Talk to them?

    18. ALDr. Amir Levine1:26:34

        Yeah, and they will tell you, "Well, they, I don't know, they just didn't like you." Or maybe they'll be honest, they'll tell you that. Or it's like, "Well, you know what? It didn't work, and maybe it's for the best." And you're like, "No, no, but you don't understand, but it's this and it's that." But it's also helpful for you. That's where knowing the attachment language is so helpful because you can then understand, oh no, actually, that's an activating strategy. That's my brain telling me I feel very unsafe in this world if I'm not gonna be in touch with this person and find out this information. It's just another way of, like, thinking about it and continuing the relationship in my mind because my mind can let go- my brain cannot let go of that person. And here's a very important point, and I often tell this to my patients. We think that we're con- at con- we're in control and we're at the helm of these things, that we know what we're doing, but when it comes to attachment, it's much stronger than us. [laughs]

    19. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:27:29

        Right.

    20. ALDr. Amir Levine1:27:30

        It's much, much stronger than us, and that's why it causes us to yell and, and lash out and do all those things. It sort of really speaks to very rudimentary, uh, uh, emotions in us. So oftentimes, a separation or a break-up, you have to do two separate processes. You have to separate from that person, but you also have to work with your attachment neurocircuitry and know that it will be stronger than you, that you'll talk to your friends, and they're not going to convince you. That, again, because language doesn't really help sometimes. There's something beyond language that goes on. But just having that realization and that knowledge that it's gonna... that the chatter will continue in your brain for a while until it lets go-

    21. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:28:17

        Yeah

    22. ALDr. Amir Levine1:28:17

        ... I think is crucial.

    23. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:28:18

        Yeah.

    24. ALDr. Amir Levine1:28:19

        Once you are convinced that the other person, they're not coming back, then eventually you'll start to deactivate. And so you activate, you activate, and then you start to deactivate. And then the way the usually deactivation looks like, it's like, "Well, maybe it wasn't meant to be." You sort of... Instead of like, "No, no, but this is the only one, and this is the only person that I want." Or, or even in friendships, "No, my Go- I, I, I can't be without this friend." So that's the, all the activation strategies that your brain engages in. And then at some point when... But it's really, it's onl- it happens on its own time when you realize, I guess, they're, they're not coming back, when every cell in your body kinda, like, finally comes to that conclusion. And, and it's different for different people. More people, people with more anxious attachment-

    25. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:29:06

        Mm-hmm

    26. ALDr. Amir Levine1:29:06

        ... style usually have a more sticky attachment style that's harder for them make... to, to let go, but not only. So, and then you start to deactivate, and it can be like, "It wasn't meant to be." Sometimes, [laughs] it's like, um, like it's, sometimes it's also even thinking negative things about the other person. And it's then like, well... The best example of that, that I have, is one of my patients, he went through a very, very, uh, painful break- painful break-up. And then he, um, and then after a while it was over, and he was able to deactivate. For a long, long time, one, like, he was living in the West Village, and the other part- his partner was living in the East Village. He couldn't cross Fifth Avenue. He couldn't go to the east side of Manhattan because it was so painful and it reminded him of how hard, like, he wanted the other person back, and it just didn't work. And then eventually he deactivated. And then, o- he- they became friends, and he went over and he stayed. They had, like, a house, uh, like a, a country home. And so he stayed at his, uh, ex-partner's house. Uh, it was in the Hamptons. And then he already had someone new, and he was, like, sleeping in the bedroom, in the guest bedroom next to their bed, and he heard them having sex. And he could tell me that all he was thinking about, "How lucky am I that I'm in this guest bedroom and I'm not there in that bedroom because, a, this person is a much better friend than a partner." So that's, like, a classic example of deactivation. When-

    27. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:30:33

        But that took some time-

    28. ALDr. Amir Levine1:30:34

        Yes

    29. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:30:34

        ... to get to that point.

    30. ALDr. Amir Levine1:30:35

        Yes. Def- uh, uh, in the beginning, he couldn't even cross Fifth Avenue-
16. 1:40:26 – 1:47:56

    Practical takeaways: interrupting spirals, apologizing mid-momentum, and the case for change

    1. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:40:26

       Amir, I, I've, I've, I've thoroughly loved talking about this topic with you. You've, you know, you've gone into such detail in your, in your first book from, what? A decade ago, Attached, and now in Secure. I think it's gonna really help people understand themselves better and give them tools to navigate the social world a, a, a, a bit better, a lot better. But to finish off this conversation, for someone who's listened and has thought, "Yeah, you know what? I am insecurely wide. You know, I'm either avoidant, I'm anxious-

    2. ALDr. Amir Levine1:41:05

       Anxious

    3. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:41:05

       ... or I'm fearful avoidance."

    4. ALDr. Amir Levine1:41:06

       Mm-hmm.

    5. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:41:06

       "I'm one of those three." But you're telling me, A- Amir, that I can actually live this secure life using the science of secure connection. What are some of your favorite practical tools that you would leave that person with?

    6. ALDr. Amir Levine1:41:24

       So I, um, I would definitely say really, um, learn the logic of the attachment neurocircuitry. But, um... And then we talked about some of those two tools. The sort of, like, like when you're fighting with someone, the, uh, the only one person is allowed to be upset at the time.

    7. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:41:44

       I love that one.

    8. ALDr. Amir Levine1:41:45

       [laughs]

    9. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:41:45

       I really like that one.

    10. ALDr. Amir Levine1:41:47

        And the mea culpa rule, but there's a, there's another one that I actually often tell people, but it's particularly true for fearful avoidants because they get into so much relationship strife. I call it stopping yourself in your track and apologizing. And so sometimes people feel that when they start a fight, then it, it's basically there's a momentum, and then you can't sort of-

    11. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:42:09

        [laughs]

    12. ALDr. Amir Levine1:42:09

        ... get out of that momentum. [laughs]

    13. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:42:11

        It's like, like the rollercoaster starts to go down.

    14. ALDr. Amir Levine1:42:13

        Yes, and there's like no way out.

    15. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:42:16

        There's nothing you can do. But you're about to say that's not true.

    16. ALDr. Amir Levine1:42:17

        That's not true. And at any given moment, and just by knowing that, and you actually practicing that, and sometimes I do it with people, like, 'cause I text people in real time to help them. 'Cause sometimes you sort of, you're, it's like almost like your brain get hijacked.

    17. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:42:31

        Yeah.

    18. ALDr. Amir Levine1:42:32

        Um, and then so you stop, and you say, "You know what? I'm sorry. I don't want to be this way. I really want to be more secure, and this is certainly not secure. Like, I really apologize. I'm saying all these things. Sometimes I don't even mean them, but I'm saying them because I'm upset, so help me, uh, be better. Help me do better." Like usually I always go to the hug thing, but that's, like, in, uh, in romantic relationships, but we have attachment styles in friendships. And you can still say, uh, "I don't want to say these things."

    19. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:43:04

        Yeah.

    20. ALDr. Amir Levine1:43:04

        "I know I'm being hurtful. I really don't want to do that. Uh, help me climb down from this tree," you know? [laughs]

    21. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:43:10

        That's lovely. And even just saying, "Help me," even though you might have started an argument, you are able now to acknowledge that maybe you should never have started it in the first place and that you're sorry, and then saying, "Help me," it changes the whole tonality of it, doesn't it?

    22. ALDr. Amir Levine1:43:24

        Entirely.

    23. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:43:25

        It suddenly, it's like, oh, this person needs help from me. And, and, and it's, it's very powerful. The, the other sort of thing I can't stop thinking about, and you brought it up throughout this conversation, is that our attachment styles are pre-verbal, and words often cause more problems. And you say, like, a hug. I get it. You know, a hug can be so powerful and can arguably say more than words. And yes, we know about that in the context of a romantic relationship, but you can also hug your mates.

    24. ALDr. Amir Levine1:44:00

        Definitely.

    25. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:44:01

        Sometimes men struggle with that, but we don't need to. I mean, it's super nice to hug one of your friends, and you know, you, you both know what that means.You know, you don't have to say anything

    26. ALDr. Amir Levine1:44:11

        I'll give you... Exactly. I'll give you an example of something that happened to me with my, uh, brother-in-law. He can be very difficult and say really, like, hurtful things, and one time he said something that was very hurtful to me, and I said, "You know what? That's actually..." And I was like, "You know what? I'm leaving." I was... We were visiting them. "I'm leaving." He said, "No, no, don't leave. I'm sorry." And, like, and then he's like, "Come here," and he kind of like grabbed me. He's like this big guy-

    27. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:44:31

        [laughs]

    28. ALDr. Amir Levine1:44:31

        ... and he hugged me. I'm like, "What's happening? [laughs] What's going on?" And then all of a sudden, I found myself being soothed and feeling-

    29. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee1:44:37

        Yeah

    30. ALDr. Amir Levine1:44:37

        ... better just, like, instantly.

Episode duration: 1:47:56